In other news: mic should be arriving today! And I'm working on an Ollie 🐶 featured video where he chooses what book I read bc he clearly wants to be a star ⭐
if you haven't touched them yet, try "The Dying Earth" Series by Jack Vance, and "A Fire Upon the Deep" by Vernor Vinge, both really interesting and wild sci-fi..... Also if you want something NOT sci-fi... My favorite book is 'Little, Big' by John Crowley.... certainly not for everyone.
🪱🪐Timestamps ✨🌌 0:00 - Intro 0:30 - Dune 2:23 - Dune Messiah 4:10 - Children of Dune 6:19 - God Emperor of Dune 9:15 - Will I read on? 10:20 - Final Thoughts
Literally never related more than when you said you’d watch Quinn’s ideas, I watched his video on each book after I finished it just to help me collect my thoughts.
This came at the perfect time! I just saw part 2 last night-it was FANTASTIC! I read the first Dune book nearly 2 years ago but I've been scared to tackle Dune Messiah because, like you said, people say it's boring and plotless. Hear you talk about the other books in the series has encouraged me to pick it up again!
I actually really enjoyed it, perhaps because of the huge negative response it lowered expectations. But i have read it multiple times now and feel its the last act of book 1. Dune certainly isnt an action adventure series, something important to know before diving in. Its all grand ideas and philosphy... if you cant stomach that stuff... it will be a slog for anyone. Bu, the following books definitely begin reaching out to varied and weird places. But, im a dune geek. So, take that with a pinch of salt.
@@wayfarervisual I'm actually usually not a fan of high action stuff! I love a book that's going to make me stop and think. You got me excited to pick up the series again!
Well, it's a sad book over sad choices, that's the main problem, it's a bit of a downer. But there is so much beauty as well in this end of a character arc. People, you should know by now that's life. It is always sad at the end, it doesn't mean the journey wasn't interesting after all. As you can tell I love it.
@@wayfarervisual Herbert has been working on DM while Dune was being published, so it makes sense. It was originally titled the Fool Saint, but later renamed for marketing purposes. I could have fit easily into Dune internal books structure. Dune -> Muad'Dib -> The Prophet -> Fool Saint. And you are right. The Dune series is about philosophy, religion, ethics, ecology, politics etc. and thoughts that provoke in you. Action is just a carrier. For me, that's why it's so much re-readable.
I read the novel but I don't think it stands very well on its own, the ending is extremely abrupt. I read "Dune Messiah" straight after and it's basically the epilogue to the original Dune novel and it's great, also way shorter. I don't think people can really appreciate the full story without reading the 2nd book. Not sure about the other novels though, but I'm glad they will adapt that book to complete the movie trilogy.
Dune Messiah is my fav. I’m surprised that she said there was no plot. I thought the plot was actually way more intriguing than the first book, because the first book is basically just an inversion of the hero’s journey.
The Movies rarely capture the political nuance of the books. Most movie adaptations are just that an adaptation. What i dont like is getting things out of order, or adding in elements that aren't there to begin with.
To me the most interesting way to read Dune is that the prescient visions Paul and Leto II have may not be 100% accurate. Does Paul deciding to lead the Fremen necessitate the jihad? Maybe. But maybe Paul could've chosen a different path, and his visions led him into a self fulfilling prophecy. Same with Leto Il and his Golden Path. Was this really the only way to save humanity, or was this just what Leto II THOUGHT was the only way to save humanity?
Great video. Very well spoken and I like your level of analysis. Very nice. Oh and definitely keep reading and sharing your thoughts. Saw a Dune Double Feature on the 28th in IMAX and it blew my mind… I’m an old school fan all being said and am always happy with more of the Dune world and its ideas to explore….
I think the problem with Dune: Messiah is that Frank Herbert focused more on getting his point across since no one understood that Paul isn't supposed to be idolized and/or seen as a hero by the readers in book one
This is a nice intro to Dune. I'm slowly starting to get into sci-fi, so I hope to one day tackle the Dune books. I've been reading a lot of short story anthologies recently, and I'm working my way up to longer sci-fi works.
Thank you that means so much! I was actually thinking recently about that speech u gave us at the very start to not be passive consumers and create something :) This is the fruit of that in some part I think
The God Emperor creates a situation, much like an explosive impetus, that leads to "The Great Scattering" and it is this scattering of humans far and wide (into unknown reaches of space) that ensures humanity's survival since the idea is that some of humanity might be eliminated but it would be impossible to eliminate all. In my opinion, the last two books (Heretics and Chapter House) when put together, equal the magic of the first book. I know some people may not agree but I was as enthralled by the Bene Gesserit story as much as I was with the rise of the Atreides. I love the in between books too but they are the continuation of the established story not the introduction to something new, and I dare say, exciting.
Geez... my favourite is, by far, Dune Messiah; and once again it's treated as the family's black sheep :c Leaving that aside, glad you dove into this marvelous saga!
Good one. I encourage you to keep reading. The final two books are quite good and show some interesting consequences of Leto embarking on the Golden Path. They also have some of the best character work Frank Herbert ever produced.
I think not many people get this far through the series! I read these as a kid, and loved them back then, but even though I loved them I tapped out at CoD. I just couldn't afford the time when there were other things to do.
I was talking about this to my friend the other day: everyone has a different favorite Dune book. I like God Emperor the best, very closely followed by Messiah, while you don't like Messiah, but you do like Dune. He then again likes Children the best. Each book is about a different philosophical theme, and there is for everyone one that appeals.
I read all six books and I definitely recommend you finish the last two. The last two were a lot about the Bene Gesserit and they were really good. Sadly, the series ends kind of on a cliffhanger as Frank Herbert passed away before finishing the story at the end of Chapterhouse Dune. I'm reading "Hunters of Dune" which is like book 7 by Brian Herbert, and honestly, it's not even 1/10th as good as his father's books.
Yeah some other commenters said that abt the Brian books :( how sad when a series/franchise is continued but the heads don’t understand why people loved it in the first place
From what I understand, Hunters and Sandworms basically require reading two other trilogies since they didn't have Frank's notes when they started making their own books. I don't know if I really want to read 6 lesser books to get a compromised ending. I'll make up my mind after Chapterhouse and give House Atreides a shot.
Oh so you just got into dune, and it seems you are in the middle hahahaha. You don't like them that much but also you don't hate them, and I get it in some parts where you explain your dislike of a couple of things, but In others leaving aside the subjective point of view, objectively you're kind of wrong. Dune messiah was written like a study and character analysis to contrast the the world building that we had on the first one based on what Paul and the rest of the cast get to learn and discover, frank always said that the second book was a warning to not be guided by good heroes of any kind, Paul is this leader and all the choices he made on the first book are coming after him now ; the world building was a key element that I would like to see more of on the second book, but I see why it is almost non existential here and reasoning behind it to focus on Paul and the rest of the cast. I think in both ways subjectively and objectively this is a master class in writing, and after that scene on the book where everything goes nuts wow. I do not respect this part of your review of the second book, but I understand, as well as the other reviews of series but I wonder if this is because you are more of a fantasy person than a science fiction person 👀 Anyway I enjoy seeing how new readers take dune into their collection and hope you keep growing your library, also a recommendation from me seeing how much you like fantasy based on the books behind you. You must read journey to the west if you haven't or don't know it, it is one of the 4 classics of Chinese literature and it is considered as the key stone for many genres and authors, but mainly of fantasy and science fiction, heck some or many readers say that if Tolkien didn't change a couple of things from his books, he would be copying journey to the west but set on a different scenario. This is how they put it, but if you read it we'll have to see your take on it and how much you understand it, this book is very old and it was written in a time where study of characters, world building, plot, story and many other things weren't as present or as conscious in the minds of the writers, so take this to mind if you check it out. Sorry for this long explanation and comment of mine, if you see it and have time to respond me thanks for your kindness and hope you are having a great day 👍
Thank you for this insightful comment. To be honest going into Dune I thought Messiah was going to be my favorite and perhaps that is why I was let down. Like you have guessed I am more of a fantasy reader and maybe that added to it. What you said about the character study, I just kind of got the impression that it was very clear in book 1 that Paul wasn’t supposed to be a great hero and that his coming was as much a curse in the long term as a blessing in the short term. Maybe I’d like Messiah more on a reread though? I was just saying my opinion not stating they are fact :). I really enjoyed all the other books though!! And thank you for the recommendation. I want to do a video series where I read books from each country so I’ll make sure I read Journey to the West whenever I end up making that video. Edit: your comment makes me think I should explain how I rate books. Because I definitely thought I have the impression I enjoyed the series and thought book 2 was just ok. But that’s not the impression you got. I feel like most books I read are between 4/10 to 8/10 and then going above or below that just means I really loved/disliked it. I hope this clears that up
@@valliyarnl now you are starting to get the hand of it. When many begin to read dune for the first time and once you are on the second book, you can feel a bit or completely overwhelmed by the radical change ; one would expect to see even more of this world through the eyes of the protagonists, Paul being the main character should be the one doing this from the start because as you said it, it would seem clear what kind of person he really is by end of the first book. But I think this is where frank's genius shines the most by giving us the complete opposite of the first one, telling us that we still don't know how far Paul is willing to go after he has his foresight powers, and in the name of the all great writers like poe, lovecraft, jk Rolling, Tolkien, Garcia Márquez, Sanderson, Austen, dostojewski and many more I'm glad he did messiah on this way. Many once reread the second book say that their first experience gets boosted by a lot if not completely changed from the first time, and while it might not be the case for all the people, they tend to understand the book a little more than the first time but we'll see how it goes with you. Also on a side note about my mention of Tolkien here, if you have or share some of his views and ideas your dislike for some aspects of dune it's understandable. He read dune because many of his friends recommended it, but he said many times when he was alive that after finishing the books he felt them too cynical and was very open sharing his reasons behind his dislike for dune, mainly because how frank and dune portrayed mythology as a weapon and the gray moralism, whereas his views of good and objective morality and true heroism are the complete opposite on the middle earth. So yeah lol, now you know why Tolkien wasn't a big fan of dune, and thanks again for giving me part of your time to respond my comment and sharing some of your likes and dislikes with me. I hope to talk with you again in your future video reviews and seeing how are you doing, on the mean time go back to your college if you have classes today, you don't want to fail your subjects or worse ; the college charging you extra for these subjects :p, so keep doing your best and have a good day 👍
@@eliasfigarzon9813 I don't remember much from Messiah because I read it almost 3 decades ago, but that scene was almost copied in The Matrix 3 movie (blind - vision). I think I enjoyed it and it was so short I started reading the next book without a break LOL I agree with most of what you say. About Tolkien and philosophical issues. About Journey to the West and the weaknesses of the writers of the old times (or Homer even). I would also suggest to you to read (allow me to quote Wikipedia): A True Story (Ancient Greek: Ἀληθῆ διηγήματα, Alēthē diēgēmata; Latin: Vera Historia or Latin: Verae Historiae), also translated as True History, is a long novella or short novel[1] written in the second century AD by the Syrian author Lucian of Samosata.[2] The novel is a satire of outlandish tales that had been reported in ancient sources, particularly those that presented fantastic or mythical events as if they were true. It is Lucian's best-known work. It is quite fascinating. And if you're up for changing mediums to something entirely different, may I suggest Babylon 5. As for Heretics and Chapterhouse, I did enjoy them as well, even though the re-use of some characters (but not others) got a bit tiring, but the ending cliffhanger may leave you miffed. I don't consider the books by the son as canon, just bad fan-fiction, more suited to the world of BattleTech than Dune.
Great Video! Movie was amazing, but I preferred Part One, it was a perfect introduction to this world, yet something from that world building was missing in Two. Still, I haven’t felt this level of movie immersion in a while 🙌🏻
I’m gonna cheat and split the book in 2: I loved the first half and I am still salty abt the greenhouse scene, the spy subplot, and dinner party being removed so I’ll say first half of book 1 over dune pt1, but the new movie BLEW me away so I’ll say dune pt 2 over the second half. But if we take into account the sequels then I have to say Dune series>>>dune movies
When it first came out, I was unable to really understand God Emperor, but now I think that it is by far the high water mark of the whole series. I do wish that Frank Herbert had been able to finish his seventh Dune book, and I am not certain at this point that the alleged notes toward it ever existed due to the poor quality of the books produced by Kevin J Anderson that were supposedly based on them. For myself, the cliffhanger those last two books end with make the final trilogy unreadable, though I do understand people who enjoy them. They are good, as far as they go, with some excellent ideas. Somewhat related, I'd suggest that reading Herbert's non-Dune novel, Hellstrom's Hive, it can be seen as a precursor to his ideas for the Bene Tleilax in those last two Dune novels. So, in some ways, it is possible to think of it as a prequel of sorts. It's also quite good body-horror SF, so if you like that sort of thing consider this a suggestion. However, like a lot of body-horror it's rather misogynistic, so that's something to keep in mind as well.
I tell everyone to go to Quinn's ideas for help in better understanding the books and now movie He recently put all his videos for each book together Soo epic ❤
I feel like I had roughly the same feelings about the first four books as you did. The ending of children of Dune made me dive into God Emperor, and I did enjoy it but it took a lot to read through. I did like heretics and chapterhouse. I feel like I'm a minority for sure with that, and the Brian Herbert/Kevin Anderson books hunters and sandworms are all right, and they do wrap things up. Very easy to read, anyway. Finishing the series is worth doing in my opinion, if only to try and imagine what Frank would have done instead. Either way, Dune the first is the best!
Messiah is the medicine that needs a spoonful of sugar, it's the beginning of the brutal deconstruction of Paul that concludes in Children of Dune and a lot of people struggle with it, it pulls no punches and doesn't apologise for the tone it sets. I've read the books a number of times and Messiah always ties with God Emperor followed by Children as my favourites after the original, as much as I enjoyed Heretics and Chapterhouse I feel they are easily the weakest of the series, as for the Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson prequels and sequels I read the 3 House books, the Butlerian Jihad, Machine Crusade, and gave up halfway through battle of Corrin, all of them were god awful at best and fucking travesty at worst. The worst Sci fi I've ever read is Battlefield Earth, the Dune prequels and sequels aren't that bad but they are up there.
Totally understand the rating for Dune Messiah. It’s a HUGE tonal shift. I kind of liked it the first time, and really enjoyed Children of Dune. I am reading the trilogy for the second time now. Re-reading Dune Messiah now, close to the ending, and I got to say that it’s actually really good the second time. Going in knowing that it’s a completely different style of story and what to expect made me appreciate it more. Also Danika XIX (formerly Comicbook Girl 19) does a phenomenal book club for each four original dine books. I can’t recommend her content enough. ruclips.net/video/tgBq27vH8ms/видео.htmlsi=v0kNRKyBq7n8lDEE
Dialogue is not his strongest suit, and his characters' inner monologues can sometimes start to feel a bit repetitive, imo, but he's extremely poetic when he wants to be, and you can detect his passion for ecology. The politics is the best part, though.
Definitely about the ecology. Especially how he progresses it in GEoD. Controversial: but I actually liked his dialogue! Maybe because I flipped between the audiobooks and the text, but this was one of my favorite uses I’ve seen of the 3rs person omniscient. Especially in book 1 and 3. It is repetitive but I loved the Wheel of Time so that didn’t bother me hahaha Thank you for your comment :)
Don’t bother with Heretics or Chapterhouse. The story was finished with God Emperor. Try and find a decent used copy of the Dune Encyclopedia and check out the major entries. Like The Butlerian Jihad. Which is better than Brian’s crap!
Dune is fantastic. The rest of the series ... eh ... mixed to poor. You can stop at the first book without guilt. Fortunately, like all great book series, each book can be stand alone.
Just finished Messiah! While I liked some of the philosophical dialogues, I agree that a lot of the writing sort of dragged on itself and made me miss the intrigue of the original. Glad to hear that the later books are better!
The original series stops at Children of Dune. Most Dune fans consider these three books as the Holy Grail. God Emperor came later and some fans stop there. The remaining two books Chapterhoise and Heritics take off on a wild tangent but complete Franks Dune. The novels by Franks son Brian are non-canon and Brian has gone 7:17 so far as to rewrite Franks original canon. Dont wate your time on any of them in my opinion. 6:56
Ive read Dune 1 twice, and really enjoyed it. I saw Dune part 2 in IMAX opening weekend and will be watching it again this weekend in a normal theater. Can't wait.
I really liked your video! If you’re interested in reading the other books, then check them out, but only if you have the right motivation for it. I loved Dune Part 2 but I wish I could’ve seen Alia.
I read the first three years ago, and just repurchased Herberts 6 book set. I agree with you on Dune Messiah, but keep in mind that Herbert wrote it as a fix for the readership’s misunderstanding Paul (you may have heard that readers had thought Paul was on a Hero’s Journey, not understanding (in Herberts view) that Dune was intended as a cautionary tale *against* messianic types and charismatic leaders. Dune Messiah was written to shine a light on that. Your excellent overview means I can dive straight into God Emperor 😅
Very thoughtful reviews of this series of books. Oh, and I’ve seen the movie. I enjoyed it while watching it. But towards the end, it felt a bit rushed. Also, they deviated somewhat from the plot of the novel at the closing of the movie, and it felt flat, it felt false for me. It was disappointing. But, the visuals were great; the performances were great; the soundtrack and cinematography was great, and I enjoyed watching the film, while in the theatre. But when I left, I couldn’t help but feel a little let down. I still recommend it. And see it in a good theatre, because when it works, it really works.
I can’t believe you have only been doing this for a few months! You are a natural! Your love of books really shines through. I loved the Dune movies, especially Dune 2. Have you read or do you plan on reading The Butlerian Jihad or The Machine Crusades? I really enjoyed those.. Keep up the good work!
Thank you! I’ve actually been doing it for just under 1.5 months so your compliment means so much! I will do a video where I read the back half of Dune but I need a break first :)
I know a lot of people will disagree with me but I think God Emperor of Dune is the perfect stopping point. I don't particularly care for anything that came after.
Wow THREE VIDEOS IN A ROW?! Chris you’re my favorite today 🫶🏻 I’ll probably continue just to make my mind up abt the back half… but I’ll wait till the next movie comes out 😈
the thing Herbert complained about with Dune is what made it a classic. He didn't want us to see an uplifting hero, but he lost control of that idea and the readers read what became a classic. He tried to correct that in Dune Messiah, which is why it's so cynical and bleak. Bad move.
I don't think that's what made them classics, it's just very good space opera with great ideas and themes, there's no ambiguity with Paul's character and what Herbert wanted him to represent, if people got that from reading Dune then they didn't understand it. Messiah is a bitter pill to people who might think that of Paul and is the start of his brutal deconstruction as a character that finally concludes in Children and is on point with everything Herbert was trying to say along with the other themes in his novels.
I Heard Even Dune Fans. Say Dune: Messiah isn't the Best. It's Mostly an Epilogue. That Ties Up Most Storylines. Danika a.k.a ComicbookGirl19 Says. There's like Six Books. you Need to Read to Truly Understand. What the series is About. She's Recently Done Allot of Dune stuff. & She Goes Pretty in Depth about it.
Interesting video. I first read Dune in College during the early 90's. It was the required reading for my English 101 Intro to Lit course. I'm pretty sure I was also the only person in the class, besides the Instructor, to have actually read it. Most just watched the 1984 Movie, which was far different from the novel. Not long afterwards I read Messiah. I agree with you about Messiah. Nowhere near as good as Dune. Again, this from reading it 30+ years ago. I also agree that Dune inspired many Sci-Fi authors and Film Makers, some a bit too much. I'm talking The Matrix Movies here. During the third Matrix Movie I realized that Neo was just a cheap knock-off of Paul. Just watching Dune Part 2 brought that home even more when they were calling Paul "The One." I think they will have a very difficult time adapting Messiah as a movie with how the handled Channi and Alia. Not to spoil anything, but if you know, you know. I'm not a "Purist" by any stretch, but those were some major plot points that they changed that may have repercussions later on. If you are interested in watching a closer rendition of the story in film, I suggest the Sci-Fi Channel's Dune and Children of Dune mini series. They combined Messiah with Children due to the length of Messiah. The costumes are a bit dated now, and mostly bad choices. But, all in all, it is a good watch as they stay a bit more loyal to the source material.
Wait they adapted Children of Dune!? I need to see that. And yeah adapting Messiah will be hard. I think they’re gonna have to make some major adjustments especially plot wise. Probably include the jihad as a cold open, and do a bigger time skip to justify Anya Taylor Joy being Alia (or they can use deaging technology?) idk. I think it will be tough but I trust Villeneuve. Thank you for the comment!
@@valliyarnlThe SYFY Children of Dune mini series is really good especially when you factor how limited their budget was compared to a big Hollywood blockbuster and it’s using 20 year old cgi. I hope Denis does something similar and adapts Messiah and COD into a two part movie for the big screen. Just saw part 2 last night and it was a huge improvement over part 1 for me despite the big changes from the book. Also impressed you read the 1st 4 books so quickly because it took me over a decade to do the same. Well done!
Well your review wasnt what i was expecting. Very deep dive and insightful take on the books. I love the first one’s story line and over the years have understood the hidden meanings more and more.
Thanks for this! I'm not typically a sci-fi fan, but I love the films so I took the plunge and started the first book this week. I'm not in love with it yet, but I'm definitely intrigued.
I already read the first book, re-watched Part One, saw Part Two and it was good. Now I am reading Dune: Messiah and I intend to read Children of Dune afterwards. But to be honest with you, I just seem to have a vague interest in this franchise, as well as reading books, so I feel best off with just reading the first trilogy. My brother in law however has recommended the 2000 miniseries as well as the one from 2003 which are based on all 3 books. So, someday if I get a chance I might check 'em out. The 1984 adaptation sure was a major letdown.
Dune Messiah was less about the plot and more about Paul’s internal struggle. It was about how he could see the future but couldn’t control it. How his leadership had turned into governing. The reason it is such a confusing book is because Paul makes a lot of bizarre and sometimes counter-productive decisions at the end of his regime. My understanding was it was all so he could help navigate the present to his preferred future. One where Chani was spared a horrible fate. “I meddled in all possible futures I could create until, finally, they created me”
I thought you were VERY generous in your ratings. I agree with you that the first book is the best, and in my mind, it's the only one worth reading. The other five do have some interesting bits in them, but for the most part, I found them boring and pointless. I wouldn't rate any of the sequels above 5/10, and most of them not even that.
Dune is crazy wish they made the terminators in space prequels so everyone knows why AI is illegal punishable by death or torture more the latter for a long time
The Butlerian Jihad books aren't very good in my opinion. The Butlerian Jihad was supposed to be a mass luddite-style uprising against machines that had figuratively enslaved humanity, rather than literally enslaved them like in Brian Herbert's books.
@@valliyarnl I think the Brian books worth reading are House Atreides, House Harkonnen and House Corrino. They are overall not bad and certainly have a different style to Frank Herbert but i consider House Corrino to be my fav Brian book. As for frank books i read up to God Emperor and whilst i liked God Emperor it didnt fill me with a desire to read the last 2 novels any time soon. Children was my least favorite Frank novel out of those 4. The rest of the Brian novels i would avoid personally.
@@hpomeroy686 exactly! It wasn't Humans Vs Robots. It was "Humans who hate AI stuff" Vs "Humans who love it too much" There was no super robot titan AI terminator nonsense. The only (Frank) mention of "terminators" is when God Emperor says the Ixians can no longer create "Arafel", the destruction of humanity. They can make their self replicating hunter seekers with perfect sight and minor prescience, but they will not destroy mankind because it has spread too much among the starts and because of the genes that block prescience. Like his "wife" had. You just have to read the last 2 books to understand more :P
You've stopped at the best possible place. This forms a complete chain of thought that Herbert intended to say and completed. I felt Heretics and Chapterhouse were too different and stakes were too low after God Emperor. Maybe he was going somewhere with this, but he didn't complete Book 7, so we'll never know.
yeah i watched a few videos (The Book Guy, Daniel Greene, Mike's Book Reviews, etc) and a lot of them said to get through GEoD (for the reason you wrote) and continue only if you reaaaalllllly loved it so far. I was convinced by the comments to continue (and hey it could be a nice follow up video) but I do need a break. :) Thank you for your comment!
The first book is very, very good. My favorite book in fact. Dune Messiah is pretty decent too. They rapidly go downhill after that unfortunately, becoming boring and preachy. REALLY preachy. There's literally a character in Children of Dune called "The Preacher", and probably half of God Emperor of Dune is just Leto II talking.
I like your take on the Dune series, but I have to say that Herbert kind of lost me with God Emperor. I read these back in the 80s when the David Lynch movie had just come out and I really liked the first 3 books, but God Emperor kind of turned me off. I had to force myself to finish that one (it's LONG). The problem I had was that I'd really invested in the characters of the first books and God Emperor is thousands of years later and everyone I cared about, other than Leto II and Duncan Idaho (the... thousandth?) was gone. It felt very removed from the story that I'd been reading so far. I'm not saying there was anything wrong with it, but by the time I was done, I'd kind of lost interest. I've never read Heretics or Chapterhouse, so maybe I'll check in if you get around to them. I'd be curious if they're more compelling than God Emperor. As an aside; if you can find a copy of the Dune Encyclopedia, it's a really cool reference book. It goes into all sorts of detail about all the little things in Dune. I remember being really interested in the entry on Ornithoptors where they explained how they're powered by "heart clams" to flap the wings. I lost my copy ages ago, which is sad, because just looking at Amazon, the paperback edition I had in the 80s starts at around $200 now. It's not a novel. It really is an encyclopedia, but I pretty much read it like a novel. No clue if you can find a copy at the library, but if you can, I bet you'd like it. Anyway, thanks for sharing your views. I might have to go back and read the first 3 books again. It's been a while.
Dune: 8.5 (would be 10/10 if not for the unusual writing style, which has it's perks but far too often takes me out of the experience. Messiah: 5 (not even half as long as Dune but it felt like such a chore to read.) Children of Dune: 8 (Love this one and wish I'm upset Dennis Villewhatever is not combining Messiah and Children of Dune but I understand why). This was a really fun, fun, fun read. God Emperor of Dune: Stopped 1/4 of the way through because I wasn't prepared for just how weird the story got. Will definitely be jumping back into it though.
Sadly the movies has been changed a bit. They're accurate in most spots but other spots (like what the Baron and Feyd look like) don't match up with the book... at all.
@@MrTripleXXX Yeah that's the problem with adaptations! There is always some sudden changes but I heard that Dune from Villeneuve are more faithful than any other adaptation for Dune so at least there is that!
Loved movie two! But not happy with changes, especially as to Alia. Not a big deal though, only a bit disappointing for knowing what the book did. An understandable change for what the director is trying to achieve. #goollie
The movies are so solid. I'm keen to hear the views of people who've read the books and have seen the movies... because I don't want to ruin the movies 😅 1984 Dune is a glimpse into how weird this story could get, and that's a little much for my enjoyment. ...but I can see how the weirdness could come across differently in a book.
Good reviews with minimal spoilers. I agree with your ratings and reservations but you didn’t compare to LOTR, which I would give a 9 at least. Herbert is revered but I had to stop after Children because it really became a tedious effort. FWIW, I think your analysis of Herbert’s messages is spot on. Dune2 is a better version of the story so far but, considering Messiah, the third movie will need a lot of “interpretation” by DV. Thanks.
Dune paints such an intricate, richly-detailed world, and builds in it a sophisticated, thought-provoking plot that left me me feeling more contemplative and analytical for days after I'd finished the book. It's quite simply the greatest thing I've ever read. Dune Messiah is, I think, a respectable book in its own right--good, not great--but a big disappointment after the brilliance of Dune. It did seem a bit short on plot, and at times felt a bit contrived, but was still engaging. Children of Dune is, I feel, schlock, in its execution at least. Herbert had some interesting ideas, but it didn't feel like he took the time to properly unfold them, instead slapping them carelessly down on the page in a way that made the story feel cheap and unfulfilling. I got maybe two thirds of the way through the book before I decided that not only was I not enjoying it, but it was also beginning to detract from my admiration for the Dune universe. So I quit reading it and determined not to go any further in the series. To me, Dune is that first, nearly perfect novel, and I'll just leave it at that.
After such an effort, now treat yourself to the prequel trilogy by Herbert's son: The Butlerian Jihad. Based on, but _Very_ different from Dune. And very Fun.
God Emperor is a good stopping point and a decent ending to the series. If you keep reading, the next 2 books are set far in the future compared to GEOD and there's no ending as Frank Herbert unfortunately passed away before he could finish the series. The next 2 books do introduce some really crazy ideas so they still might be worth reading because of that. Depends on how much you liked the series. Personally I think GE is a good place to stop.
I would consider Foundation to be the Lord of the Rings of sci-fi and Dune to be the Narnia of sci-fi. Anyway, I deem God Emperor perfect closure, what I know about Heretics and Chapterhouse is turning me off majorly, and for the longest time it got a clear no from me due to being two parts of a planned trilogy he never got to finish. There was a blip of interest from me when his son revealed that they had found a 50-or-so-page outline of his and were going to finish it, but that got smothered immediately by the statement that they wouldn't try to extend that tenfold into a novel as close to what would've been as they could, but replace the universe backstory reveals in it with stuff fitting with their then-recent spinoff prequels (which they've been near-constantly continuing since).
I just finished Chapterhouse and I absolutely do not regret it. The last 20% of Chapterhouse, in my opinion, goes toe to toe with anything in Dune. However, absolutely take a break. I took a month off between God Emperor and Heretics and it was well worth it. God Emperor is as much a Dune story as it is a philosophy text book, so you should absolutely take some time. But when you’re ready, finish Heretics and Chapterhouse. They have their highs, some lows, a very interesting ending, and A LOT of Bene Gesserit.
The basic thing about the book is this: its ideas and concepts are much superior to its language and expression. So, while it is literature conceptually, in terms of ideas, and even in terms of commentary (an interesting take on the concept of empire, for example), it is pretty pedestrian writing, far inferior to other sci-fi classics.
In other news: mic should be arriving today! And I'm working on an Ollie 🐶 featured video where he chooses what book I read bc he clearly wants to be a star ⭐
I want to pick a book for you to read!!!!
@@MattsFantasyBookReviews oh I’d love that! Is there anywhere I can dm you?
if you haven't touched them yet, try "The Dying Earth" Series by Jack Vance, and "A Fire Upon the Deep" by Vernor Vinge, both really interesting and wild sci-fi.....
Also if you want something NOT sci-fi... My favorite book is 'Little, Big' by John Crowley.... certainly not for everyone.
Dune is on my TBR. I want to tackle this series.
Aahhhhh you HAVE to ASAP the audiobook is rlly good as well **
@@valliyarnl I love audiobooks so knowing it’s a good narrator is awesome 👏🏼
@@valliyarnl I love audiobooks so knowing it’s a good narrator is awesome 👏🏼
🪱🪐Timestamps ✨🌌
0:00 - Intro
0:30 - Dune
2:23 - Dune Messiah
4:10 - Children of Dune
6:19 - God Emperor of Dune
9:15 - Will I read on?
10:20 - Final Thoughts
Thanks 🧡
Literally never related more than when you said you’d watch Quinn’s ideas, I watched his video on each book after I finished it just to help me collect my thoughts.
He’s such a king 👑
This came at the perfect time! I just saw part 2 last night-it was FANTASTIC! I read the first Dune book nearly 2 years ago but I've been scared to tackle Dune Messiah because, like you said, people say it's boring and plotless. Hear you talk about the other books in the series has encouraged me to pick it up again!
Definitely do! Once you get past it it returns to form!!
I actually really enjoyed it, perhaps because of the huge negative response it lowered expectations. But i have read it multiple times now and feel its the last act of book 1. Dune certainly isnt an action adventure series, something important to know before diving in. Its all grand ideas and philosphy... if you cant stomach that stuff... it will be a slog for anyone. Bu, the following books definitely begin reaching out to varied and weird places.
But, im a dune geek.
So, take that with a pinch of salt.
@@wayfarervisual I'm actually usually not a fan of high action stuff! I love a book that's going to make me stop and think. You got me excited to pick up the series again!
Well, it's a sad book over sad choices, that's the main problem, it's a bit of a downer. But there is so much beauty as well in this end of a character arc. People, you should know by now that's life. It is always sad at the end, it doesn't mean the journey wasn't interesting after all. As you can tell I love it.
@@wayfarervisual Herbert has been working on DM while Dune was being published, so it makes sense. It was originally titled the Fool Saint, but later renamed for marketing purposes. I could have fit easily into Dune internal books structure. Dune -> Muad'Dib -> The Prophet -> Fool Saint.
And you are right. The Dune series is about philosophy, religion, ethics, ecology, politics etc. and thoughts that provoke in you. Action is just a carrier. For me, that's why it's so much re-readable.
Heretics and chapterhouse are different and weird. If you stop now no one will blame you.
Oh, Chapterhouse rivals book one imo. Keep going!
#hiollie!
I really hope people stick around for the rest of the chapters.
The story changes and critically in my opinion
I stopped after god emperor, but I'm thinking of going back to finish the last 2.
The end of heritics was Very weird
I read the novel but I don't think it stands very well on its own, the ending is extremely abrupt. I read "Dune Messiah" straight after and it's basically the epilogue to the original Dune novel and it's great, also way shorter. I don't think people can really appreciate the full story without reading the 2nd book. Not sure about the other novels though, but I'm glad they will adapt that book to complete the movie trilogy.
There's a book called Paul of Dune that is set between Dune and Dune Messiah. Because there's a big gap in between the two.
Dune Messiah is my fav. I’m surprised that she said there was no plot. I thought the plot was actually way more intriguing than the first book, because the first book is basically just an inversion of the hero’s journey.
The Movies rarely capture the political nuance of the books. Most movie adaptations are just that an adaptation. What i dont like is getting things out of order, or adding in elements that aren't there to begin with.
Really great vid.
I may pick up the books now that Ive watched the 2 movies.
That’s so kind thank you! Definitely do! The audiobook was really good if you’re into that 😄
To me the most interesting way to read Dune is that the prescient visions Paul and Leto II have may not be 100% accurate. Does Paul deciding to lead the Fremen necessitate the jihad? Maybe. But maybe Paul could've chosen a different path, and his visions led him into a self fulfilling prophecy. Same with Leto Il and his Golden Path. Was this really the only way to save humanity, or was this just what Leto II THOUGHT was the only way to save humanity?
That’s so interesting!! Thanks for bringing that up I never would’ve thought of it 😯
Great video. Very well spoken and I like your level of analysis. Very nice. Oh and definitely keep reading and sharing your thoughts. Saw a Dune Double Feature on the 28th in IMAX and it blew my mind… I’m an old school fan all being said and am always happy with more of the Dune world and its ideas to explore….
I think the problem with Dune: Messiah is that Frank Herbert focused more on getting his point across since no one understood that Paul isn't supposed to be idolized and/or seen as a hero by the readers in book one
The last two books are honestly among my favorites! Please keep reading 🙏🏼
Everyone should read Dune, as a baseline to become a better person 😉
And a more reflective one for sure!
When u said that, did you mean the first book, or the whole series...?
This is a nice intro to Dune. I'm slowly starting to get into sci-fi, so I hope to one day tackle the Dune books. I've been reading a lot of short story anthologies recently, and I'm working my way up to longer sci-fi works.
Thank you so much ☺️
Good luck on your sci fi journey!
Pretty proud of you for doing this! Keep up the awesome.
Thank you that means so much! I was actually thinking recently about that speech u gave us at the very start to not be passive consumers and create something :)
This is the fruit of that in some part I think
@@valliyarnlI'm glad to hear someone got something out of those classes. :)
You'll eventually love Dune Messiah more than any of the other books. Don't worry about it. It will seep into you.
The God Emperor creates a situation, much like an explosive impetus, that leads to "The Great Scattering" and it is this scattering of humans far and wide (into unknown reaches of space) that ensures humanity's survival since the idea is that some of humanity might be eliminated but it would be impossible to eliminate all.
In my opinion, the last two books (Heretics and Chapter House) when put together, equal the magic of the first book. I know some people may not agree but I was as enthralled by the Bene Gesserit story as much as I was with the rise of the Atreides. I love the in between books too but they are the continuation of the established story not the introduction to something new, and I dare say, exciting.
Geez... my favourite is, by far, Dune Messiah; and once again it's treated as the family's black sheep :c
Leaving that aside, glad you dove into this marvelous saga!
Just picked up Dune so this video was great
Thank you! Yeah Dune is so good I hope you enjoy it!!
Come back with the opinions on the movie and after more lore deep dives. Nerd Cookies ands Secrets of Dune are also good channels.
Good one. I encourage you to keep reading. The final two books are quite good and show some interesting consequences of Leto embarking on the Golden Path. They also have some of the best character work Frank Herbert ever produced.
I think not many people get this far through the series! I read these as a kid, and loved them back then, but even though I loved them I tapped out at CoD. I just couldn't afford the time when there were other things to do.
About to go watch part two now!!
Hope u like it!
I was talking about this to my friend the other day: everyone has a different favorite Dune book. I like God Emperor the best, very closely followed by Messiah, while you don't like Messiah, but you do like Dune. He then again likes Children the best. Each book is about a different philosophical theme, and there is for everyone one that appeals.
I read all six books and I definitely recommend you finish the last two. The last two were a lot about the Bene Gesserit and they were really good. Sadly, the series ends kind of on a cliffhanger as Frank Herbert passed away before finishing the story at the end of Chapterhouse Dune. I'm reading "Hunters of Dune" which is like book 7 by Brian Herbert, and honestly, it's not even 1/10th as good as his father's books.
Yeah some other commenters said that abt the Brian books :( how sad when a series/franchise is continued but the heads don’t understand why people loved it in the first place
From what I understand, Hunters and Sandworms basically require reading two other trilogies since they didn't have Frank's notes when they started making their own books. I don't know if I really want to read 6 lesser books to get a compromised ending. I'll make up my mind after Chapterhouse and give House Atreides a shot.
Oh so you just got into dune, and it seems you are in the middle hahahaha. You don't like them that much but also you don't hate them, and I get it in some parts where you explain your dislike of a couple of things, but In others leaving aside the subjective point of view, objectively you're kind of wrong.
Dune messiah was written like a study and character analysis to contrast the the world building that we had on the first one based on what Paul and the rest of the cast get to learn and discover, frank always said that the second book was a warning to not be guided by good heroes of any kind, Paul is this leader and all the choices he made on the first book are coming after him now ; the world building was a key element that I would like to see more of on the second book, but I see why it is almost non existential here and reasoning behind it to focus on Paul and the rest of the cast.
I think in both ways subjectively and objectively this is a master class in writing, and after that scene on the book where everything goes nuts wow.
I do not respect this part of your review of the second book, but I understand, as well as the other reviews of series but I wonder if this is because you are more of a fantasy person than a science fiction person 👀
Anyway I enjoy seeing how new readers take dune into their collection and hope you keep growing your library, also a recommendation from me seeing how much you like fantasy based on the books behind you. You must read journey to the west if you haven't or don't know it, it is one of the 4 classics of Chinese literature and it is considered as the key stone for many genres and authors, but mainly of fantasy and science fiction, heck some or many readers say that if Tolkien didn't change a couple of things from his books, he would be copying journey to the west but set on a different scenario.
This is how they put it, but if you read it we'll have to see your take on it and how much you understand it, this book is very old and it was written in a time where study of characters, world building, plot, story and many other things weren't as present or as conscious in the minds of the writers, so take this to mind if you check it out.
Sorry for this long explanation and comment of mine, if you see it and have time to respond me thanks for your kindness and hope you are having a great day 👍
Thank you for this insightful comment. To be honest going into Dune I thought Messiah was going to be my favorite and perhaps that is why I was let down. Like you have guessed I am more of a fantasy reader and maybe that added to it. What you said about the character study, I just kind of got the impression that it was very clear in book 1 that Paul wasn’t supposed to be a great hero and that his coming was as much a curse in the long term as a blessing in the short term. Maybe I’d like Messiah more on a reread though? I was just saying my opinion not stating they are fact :). I really enjoyed all the other books though!!
And thank you for the recommendation. I want to do a video series where I read books from each country so I’ll make sure I read Journey to the West whenever I end up making that video.
Edit: your comment makes me think I should explain how I rate books. Because I definitely thought I have the impression I enjoyed the series and thought book 2 was just ok. But that’s not the impression you got. I feel like most books I read are between 4/10 to 8/10 and then going above or below that just means I really loved/disliked it. I hope this clears that up
@@valliyarnl now you are starting to get the hand of it.
When many begin to read dune for the first time and once you are on the second book, you can feel a bit or completely overwhelmed by the radical change ; one would expect to see even more of this world through the eyes of the protagonists, Paul being the main character should be the one doing this from the start because as you said it, it would seem clear what kind of person he really is by end of the first book.
But I think this is where frank's genius shines the most by giving us the complete opposite of the first one, telling us that we still don't know how far Paul is willing to go after he has his foresight powers, and in the name of the all great writers like poe, lovecraft, jk Rolling, Tolkien, Garcia Márquez, Sanderson, Austen, dostojewski and many more I'm glad he did messiah on this way.
Many once reread the second book say that their first experience gets boosted by a lot if not completely changed from the first time, and while it might not be the case for all the people, they tend to understand the book a little more than the first time but we'll see how it goes with you.
Also on a side note about my mention of Tolkien here, if you have or share some of his views and ideas your dislike for some aspects of dune it's understandable.
He read dune because many of his friends recommended it, but he said many times when he was alive that after finishing the books he felt them too cynical and was very open sharing his reasons behind his dislike for dune, mainly because how frank and dune portrayed mythology as a weapon and the gray moralism, whereas his views of good and objective morality and true heroism are the complete opposite on the middle earth. So yeah lol, now you know why Tolkien wasn't a big fan of dune, and thanks again for giving me part of your time to respond my comment and sharing some of your likes and dislikes with me. I hope to talk with you again in your future video reviews and seeing how are you doing, on the mean time go back to your college if you have classes today, you don't want to fail your subjects or worse ; the college charging you extra for these subjects :p, so keep doing your best and have a good day 👍
@@eliasfigarzon9813 I don't remember much from Messiah because I read it almost 3 decades ago, but that scene was almost copied in The Matrix 3 movie (blind - vision).
I think I enjoyed it and it was so short I started reading the next book without a break LOL
I agree with most of what you say.
About Tolkien and philosophical issues.
About Journey to the West and the weaknesses of the writers of the old times (or Homer even).
I would also suggest to you to read (allow me to quote Wikipedia):
A True Story (Ancient Greek: Ἀληθῆ διηγήματα, Alēthē diēgēmata; Latin: Vera Historia or Latin: Verae Historiae), also translated as True History, is a long novella or short novel[1] written in the second century AD by the Syrian author Lucian of Samosata.[2] The novel is a satire of outlandish tales that had been reported in ancient sources, particularly those that presented fantastic or mythical events as if they were true. It is Lucian's best-known work.
It is quite fascinating.
And if you're up for changing mediums to something entirely different, may I suggest Babylon 5.
As for Heretics and Chapterhouse, I did enjoy them as well, even though the re-use of some characters (but not others) got a bit tiring, but the ending cliffhanger may leave you miffed.
I don't consider the books by the son as canon, just bad fan-fiction, more suited to the world of BattleTech than Dune.
Great Video!
Movie was amazing, but I preferred Part One, it was a perfect introduction to this world, yet something from that world building was missing in Two. Still, I haven’t felt this level of movie immersion in a while 🙌🏻
I’m seeing it this evening! Yeah from what I heard Part 2 is more action(?) focused. I’m excited anyway!
I also find myself preferring part one, but both are masterpieces!
The question now is if you like the books or the movie better 🧐
I’m gonna cheat and split the book in 2: I loved the first half and I am still salty abt the greenhouse scene, the spy subplot, and dinner party being removed so I’ll say first half of book 1 over dune pt1, but the new movie BLEW me away so I’ll say dune pt 2 over the second half. But if we take into account the sequels then I have to say Dune series>>>dune movies
Please read on, only two books left to go.
Pretty cogent stuff. Thank you!
When it first came out, I was unable to really understand God Emperor, but now I think that it is by far the high water mark of the whole series. I do wish that Frank Herbert had been able to finish his seventh Dune book, and I am not certain at this point that the alleged notes toward it ever existed due to the poor quality of the books produced by Kevin J Anderson that were supposedly based on them. For myself, the cliffhanger those last two books end with make the final trilogy unreadable, though I do understand people who enjoy them. They are good, as far as they go, with some excellent ideas.
Somewhat related, I'd suggest that reading Herbert's non-Dune novel, Hellstrom's Hive, it can be seen as a precursor to his ideas for the Bene Tleilax in those last two Dune novels. So, in some ways, it is possible to think of it as a prequel of sorts. It's also quite good body-horror SF, so if you like that sort of thing consider this a suggestion. However, like a lot of body-horror it's rather misogynistic, so that's something to keep in mind as well.
Really only likes the first book which was a masterpiece
I tell everyone to go to Quinn's ideas for help in better understanding the books and now movie
He recently put all his videos for each book together
Soo epic ❤
On my way to watch rn
Dune is the GOAT. Just don't read the Brian Herbert books, those are basically fanfics...
I feel like I had roughly the same feelings about the first four books as you did. The ending of children of Dune made me dive into God Emperor, and I did enjoy it but it took a lot to read through.
I did like heretics and chapterhouse. I feel like I'm a minority for sure with that, and the Brian Herbert/Kevin Anderson books hunters and sandworms are all right, and they do wrap things up. Very easy to read, anyway. Finishing the series is worth doing in my opinion, if only to try and imagine what Frank would have done instead.
Either way, Dune the first is the best!
Messiah is the medicine that needs a spoonful of sugar, it's the beginning of the brutal deconstruction of Paul that concludes in Children of Dune and a lot of people struggle with it, it pulls no punches and doesn't apologise for the tone it sets.
I've read the books a number of times and Messiah always ties with God Emperor followed by Children as my favourites after the original, as much as I enjoyed Heretics and Chapterhouse I feel they are easily the weakest of the series, as for the Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson prequels and sequels I read the 3 House books, the Butlerian Jihad, Machine Crusade, and gave up halfway through battle of Corrin, all of them were god awful at best and fucking travesty at worst. The worst Sci fi I've ever read is Battlefield Earth, the Dune prequels and sequels aren't that bad but they are up there.
Totally understand the rating for Dune Messiah. It’s a HUGE tonal shift. I kind of liked it the first time, and really enjoyed Children of Dune.
I am reading the trilogy for the second time now. Re-reading Dune Messiah now, close to the ending, and I got to say that it’s actually really good the second time. Going in knowing that it’s a completely different style of story and what to expect made me appreciate it more.
Also Danika XIX (formerly Comicbook Girl 19) does a phenomenal book club for each four original dine books. I can’t recommend her content enough.
ruclips.net/video/tgBq27vH8ms/видео.htmlsi=v0kNRKyBq7n8lDEE
Dialogue is not his strongest suit, and his characters' inner monologues can sometimes start to feel a bit repetitive, imo, but he's extremely poetic when he wants to be, and you can detect his passion for ecology. The politics is the best part, though.
Definitely about the ecology. Especially how he progresses it in GEoD. Controversial: but I actually liked his dialogue! Maybe because I flipped between the audiobooks and the text, but this was one of my favorite uses I’ve seen of the 3rs person omniscient. Especially in book 1 and 3. It is repetitive but I loved the Wheel of Time so that didn’t bother me hahaha
Thank you for your comment :)
Don’t bother with Heretics or Chapterhouse. The story was finished with God Emperor. Try and find a decent used copy of the Dune Encyclopedia and check out the major entries. Like The Butlerian Jihad. Which is better than Brian’s crap!
Dune is fantastic. The rest of the series ... eh ... mixed to poor. You can stop at the first book without guilt. Fortunately, like all great book series, each book can be stand alone.
Just finished Messiah! While I liked some of the philosophical dialogues, I agree that a lot of the writing sort of dragged on itself and made me miss the intrigue of the original. Glad to hear that the later books are better!
The original series stops at Children of Dune. Most Dune fans consider these three books as the Holy Grail. God Emperor came later and some fans stop there. The remaining two books Chapterhoise and Heritics take off on a wild tangent but complete Franks Dune. The novels by Franks son Brian are non-canon and Brian has gone 7:17 so far as to rewrite Franks original canon. Dont wate your time on any of them in my opinion. 6:56
Ive read Dune 1 twice, and really enjoyed it. I saw Dune part 2 in IMAX opening weekend and will be watching it again this weekend in a normal theater. Can't wait.
I have no idea how you could adapt God Emperor without normies losing their minds 😂😂
True 🤣🤣🤣
Thanks for Shouting out Wuinns ideas as well.
Obsessed with him. I was binging all the videos in February and they helped me understand everything so much
I really liked your video! If you’re interested in reading the other books, then check them out, but only if you have the right motivation for it. I loved Dune Part 2 but I wish I could’ve seen Alia.
she wants me so bad
wtf is this comment 😂😂😂
The Frank Herbert ones are all a decent read - by definitely give the ones written by his son a big swerve... not worth your time.
I read the first three years ago, and just repurchased Herberts 6 book set.
I agree with you on Dune Messiah, but keep in mind that Herbert wrote it as a fix for the readership’s misunderstanding Paul (you may have heard that readers had thought Paul was on a Hero’s Journey, not understanding (in Herberts view) that Dune was intended as a cautionary tale *against* messianic types and charismatic leaders. Dune Messiah was written to shine a light on that.
Your excellent overview means I can dive straight into God Emperor 😅
Great video - really honest and appreciate the spoilerfree overview
I imagine your name is pronounced Vera. I knew a Polish Ewa once, and she got upset whenever someone pronounced it Ewa instead of Eva
Yes it is! (also ur comment made me realise i never said the pronounciation in a video so thanks for brining that to my attention ☺)
God emperor is my favourite book. But not my favourite part of the whole story.
Movie was great, they handled the murder toddler on probably the only way they could while still keeping general audiences interested
I rather not read fantasy anymore so I don't get disappointed with TV adaptations.
Enjoyed your book reviews, have subbed
Very thoughtful reviews of this series of books. Oh, and I’ve seen the movie. I enjoyed it while watching it. But towards the end, it felt a bit rushed. Also, they deviated somewhat from the plot of the novel at the closing of the movie, and it felt flat, it felt false for me. It was disappointing. But, the visuals were great; the performances were great; the soundtrack and cinematography was great, and I enjoyed watching the film, while in the theatre. But when I left, I couldn’t help but feel a little let down. I still recommend it. And see it in a good theatre, because when it works, it really works.
My favorite book series by far, the more I read them the more I love them.
I picked up once and couldn't read it, not my style, so I'll stick to the movies.
I can’t believe you have only been doing this for a few months! You are a natural! Your love of books really shines through. I loved the Dune movies, especially Dune 2. Have you read or do you plan on reading The Butlerian Jihad or The Machine Crusades? I really enjoyed those.. Keep up the good work!
Thank you! I’ve actually been doing it for just under 1.5 months so your compliment means so much! I will do a video where I read the back half of Dune but I need a break first :)
I know a lot of people will disagree with me but I think God Emperor of Dune is the perfect stopping point. I don't particularly care for anything that came after.
Wow THREE VIDEOS IN A ROW?! Chris you’re my favorite today 🫶🏻
I’ll probably continue just to make my mind up abt the back half… but I’ll wait till the next movie comes out 😈
the thing Herbert complained about with Dune is what made it a classic. He didn't want us to see an uplifting hero, but he lost control of that idea and the readers read what became a classic. He tried to correct that in Dune Messiah, which is why it's so cynical and bleak. Bad move.
I don't think that's what made them classics, it's just very good space opera with great ideas and themes, there's no ambiguity with Paul's character and what Herbert wanted him to represent, if people got that from reading Dune then they didn't understand it. Messiah is a bitter pill to people who might think that of Paul and is the start of his brutal deconstruction as a character that finally concludes in Children and is on point with everything Herbert was trying to say along with the other themes in his novels.
i think God Emperor is one of the greatest scifi books of all time.
I Heard Even Dune Fans. Say Dune: Messiah isn't the Best. It's Mostly an Epilogue. That Ties Up Most Storylines. Danika a.k.a ComicbookGirl19 Says. There's like Six Books. you Need to Read to Truly Understand. What the series is About. She's Recently Done Allot of Dune stuff. & She Goes Pretty in Depth about it.
Thanks for the recommendation I’ll check her out!
Interesting video. I first read Dune in College during the early 90's. It was the required reading for my English 101 Intro to Lit course. I'm pretty sure I was also the only person in the class, besides the Instructor, to have actually read it. Most just watched the 1984 Movie, which was far different from the novel. Not long afterwards I read Messiah.
I agree with you about Messiah. Nowhere near as good as Dune. Again, this from reading it 30+ years ago. I also agree that Dune inspired many Sci-Fi authors and Film Makers, some a bit too much. I'm talking The Matrix Movies here. During the third Matrix Movie I realized that Neo was just a cheap knock-off of Paul. Just watching Dune Part 2 brought that home even more when they were calling Paul "The One."
I think they will have a very difficult time adapting Messiah as a movie with how the handled Channi and Alia. Not to spoil anything, but if you know, you know. I'm not a "Purist" by any stretch, but those were some major plot points that they changed that may have repercussions later on.
If you are interested in watching a closer rendition of the story in film, I suggest the Sci-Fi Channel's Dune and Children of Dune mini series. They combined Messiah with Children due to the length of Messiah. The costumes are a bit dated now, and mostly bad choices. But, all in all, it is a good watch as they stay a bit more loyal to the source material.
Wait they adapted Children of Dune!? I need to see that. And yeah adapting Messiah will be hard. I think they’re gonna have to make some major adjustments especially plot wise. Probably include the jihad as a cold open, and do a bigger time skip to justify Anya Taylor Joy being Alia (or they can use deaging technology?) idk. I think it will be tough but I trust Villeneuve.
Thank you for the comment!
@@valliyarnlThe SYFY Children of Dune mini series is really good especially when you factor how limited their budget was compared to a big Hollywood blockbuster and it’s using 20 year old cgi. I hope Denis does something similar and adapts Messiah and COD into a two part movie for the big screen. Just saw part 2 last night and it was a huge improvement over part 1 for me despite the big changes from the book. Also impressed you read the 1st 4 books so quickly because it took me over a decade to do the same. Well done!
Messiah has always been an outlier quality wise.
WTF no spoiler???
There’s a massive sand worm with a face on the cover of the book..
And cinema sins included it in their honest trailers so I’m going by their metric
I really like your review style, criminally underrated channel :)
Please don;t read the prequels!!
This is the first video from you I watched but definetly not the last one. Great job!
Well your review wasnt what i was expecting. Very deep dive and insightful take on the books. I love the first one’s story line and over the years have understood the hidden meanings more and more.
Thanks for this! I'm not typically a sci-fi fan, but I love the films so I took the plunge and started the first book this week. I'm not in love with it yet, but I'm definitely intrigued.
Thoughts??
I already read the first book, re-watched Part One, saw Part Two and it was good. Now I am reading Dune: Messiah and I intend to read Children of Dune afterwards. But to be honest with you, I just seem to have a vague interest in this franchise, as well as reading books, so I feel best off with just reading the first trilogy. My brother in law however has recommended the 2000 miniseries as well as the one from 2003 which are based on all 3 books. So, someday if I get a chance I might check 'em out. The 1984 adaptation sure was a major letdown.
Dune Messiah was less about the plot and more about Paul’s internal struggle. It was about how he could see the future but couldn’t control it. How his leadership had turned into governing.
The reason it is such a confusing book is because Paul makes a lot of bizarre and sometimes counter-productive decisions at the end of his regime. My understanding was it was all so he could help navigate the present to his preferred future. One where Chani was spared a horrible fate.
“I meddled in all possible futures I could create until, finally, they created me”
Determinism ..this book is all about destiny …how u cannot escape but be brave to face
read it! read it! cheering you on here. Also taking up the series myself, from this weekend. Godspeed to all of us!
I thought you were VERY generous in your ratings. I agree with you that the first book is the best, and in my mind, it's the only one worth reading. The other five do have some interesting bits in them, but for the most part, I found them boring and pointless. I wouldn't rate any of the sequels above 5/10, and most of them not even that.
Dune is crazy wish they made the terminators in space prequels so everyone knows why AI is illegal punishable by death or torture more the latter for a long time
Whoa terminators in space sounds cool. Is this the Butlerian Jihad? Yeah I hope they show at least a flashback or smth it would epic 😎🔥
The Butlerian Jihad books aren't very good in my opinion. The Butlerian Jihad was supposed to be a mass luddite-style uprising against machines that had figuratively enslaved humanity, rather than literally enslaved them like in Brian Herbert's books.
@@hpomeroy686 oh thank you for clarifying. I’m not quite certain what’s up with the Brian books haha
@@valliyarnl I think the Brian books worth reading are House Atreides, House Harkonnen and House Corrino. They are overall not bad and certainly have a different style to Frank Herbert but i consider House Corrino to be my fav Brian book. As for frank books i read up to God Emperor and whilst i liked God Emperor it didnt fill me with a desire to read the last 2 novels any time soon. Children was my least favorite Frank novel out of those 4. The rest of the Brian novels i would avoid personally.
@@hpomeroy686 exactly!
It wasn't Humans Vs Robots.
It was "Humans who hate AI stuff" Vs "Humans who love it too much"
There was no super robot titan AI terminator nonsense.
The only (Frank) mention of "terminators" is when God Emperor says the Ixians can no longer create "Arafel", the destruction of humanity. They can make their self replicating hunter seekers with perfect sight and minor prescience, but they will not destroy mankind because it has spread too much among the starts and because of the genes that block prescience. Like his "wife" had.
You just have to read the last 2 books to understand more :P
You've stopped at the best possible place. This forms a complete chain of thought that Herbert intended to say and completed.
I felt Heretics and Chapterhouse were too different and stakes were too low after God Emperor. Maybe he was going somewhere with this, but he didn't complete Book 7, so we'll never know.
yeah i watched a few videos (The Book Guy, Daniel Greene, Mike's Book Reviews, etc) and a lot of them said to get through GEoD (for the reason you wrote) and continue only if you reaaaalllllly loved it so far. I was convinced by the comments to continue (and hey it could be a nice follow up video) but I do need a break. :)
Thank you for your comment!
@@valliyarnl thank you for the reply. And for making the review
Read on girl.
What happened to 'spoiler free' in the 'god emperor of dune' section?!? 😂
I didn’t mention anything that wasn’t on the cover 🤷🏼♀️
Sorry Quinns ideas
This video will probably blow up your channel :D
I hope so, Pac Man 🤞🏻
💖
Wera keep it up. Dziewczyno czekam na wiecej :) - ps. nie wiem czemu youtube mi Ciebie Polecil, ale mam nadzieje ze spotkamy sie jeszcze.
The first book is very, very good. My favorite book in fact. Dune Messiah is pretty decent too. They rapidly go downhill after that unfortunately, becoming boring and preachy. REALLY preachy. There's literally a character in Children of Dune called "The Preacher", and probably half of God Emperor of Dune is just Leto II talking.
I like your take on the Dune series, but I have to say that Herbert kind of lost me with God Emperor. I read these back in the 80s when the David Lynch movie had just come out and I really liked the first 3 books, but God Emperor kind of turned me off. I had to force myself to finish that one (it's LONG). The problem I had was that I'd really invested in the characters of the first books and God Emperor is thousands of years later and everyone I cared about, other than Leto II and Duncan Idaho (the... thousandth?) was gone. It felt very removed from the story that I'd been reading so far. I'm not saying there was anything wrong with it, but by the time I was done, I'd kind of lost interest. I've never read Heretics or Chapterhouse, so maybe I'll check in if you get around to them. I'd be curious if they're more compelling than God Emperor.
As an aside; if you can find a copy of the Dune Encyclopedia, it's a really cool reference book. It goes into all sorts of detail about all the little things in Dune. I remember being really interested in the entry on Ornithoptors where they explained how they're powered by "heart clams" to flap the wings. I lost my copy ages ago, which is sad, because just looking at Amazon, the paperback edition I had in the 80s starts at around $200 now. It's not a novel. It really is an encyclopedia, but I pretty much read it like a novel. No clue if you can find a copy at the library, but if you can, I bet you'd like it. Anyway, thanks for sharing your views. I might have to go back and read the first 3 books again. It's been a while.
Dune: 8.5 (would be 10/10 if not for the unusual writing style, which has it's perks but far too often takes me out of the experience.
Messiah: 5 (not even half as long as Dune but it felt like such a chore to read.)
Children of Dune: 8 (Love this one and wish I'm upset Dennis Villewhatever is not combining Messiah and Children of Dune but I understand why). This was a really fun, fun, fun read.
God Emperor of Dune: Stopped 1/4 of the way through because I wasn't prepared for just how weird the story got. Will definitely be jumping back into it though.
Great video Wera! I'm really intrigued to read the books after watching Dune: Part Two! I wanna know what happens next 😌
Sadly the movies has been changed a bit. They're accurate in most spots but other spots (like what the Baron and Feyd look like) don't match up with the book... at all.
@@MrTripleXXX Yeah that's the problem with adaptations! There is always some sudden changes but I heard that Dune from Villeneuve are more faithful than any other adaptation for Dune so at least there is that!
Loved movie two! But not happy with changes, especially as to Alia. Not a big deal though, only a bit disappointing for knowing what the book did. An understandable change for what the director is trying to achieve.
#goollie
I've read the first six books and I think your reviews are on point. I really enjoyed reading the books tho.
I’d personally like for the chihuahua to have a more prominent role in the videos. Thanks
I don’t live w Ollie anymore 😭
@@valliyarnl Well darn, I guess I’ll have to do without old Ollie then 😆
omniscient narration bugged me as well. they're definitely important books but definitely not without flaw.
The movies are so solid. I'm keen to hear the views of people who've read the books and have seen the movies... because I don't want to ruin the movies 😅 1984 Dune is a glimpse into how weird this story could get, and that's a little much for my enjoyment. ...but I can see how the weirdness could come across differently in a book.
Good reviews with minimal spoilers. I agree with your ratings and reservations but you didn’t compare to LOTR, which I would give a 9 at least. Herbert is revered but I had to stop after Children because it really became a tedious effort. FWIW, I think your analysis of Herbert’s messages is spot on. Dune2 is a better version of the story so far but, considering Messiah, the third movie will need a lot of “interpretation” by DV. Thanks.
Dune paints such an intricate, richly-detailed world, and builds in it a sophisticated, thought-provoking plot that left me me feeling more contemplative and analytical for days after I'd finished the book. It's quite simply the greatest thing I've ever read.
Dune Messiah is, I think, a respectable book in its own right--good, not great--but a big disappointment after the brilliance of Dune. It did seem a bit short on plot, and at times felt a bit contrived, but was still engaging.
Children of Dune is, I feel, schlock, in its execution at least. Herbert had some interesting ideas, but it didn't feel like he took the time to properly unfold them, instead slapping them carelessly down on the page in a way that made the story feel cheap and unfulfilling. I got maybe two thirds of the way through the book before I decided that not only was I not enjoying it, but it was also beginning to detract from my admiration for the Dune universe. So I quit reading it and determined not to go any further in the series. To me, Dune is that first, nearly perfect novel, and I'll just leave it at that.
After such an effort, now treat yourself to the prequel trilogy by Herbert's son: The Butlerian Jihad.
Based on, but _Very_ different from Dune. And very Fun.
God Emperor is a good stopping point and a decent ending to the series. If you keep reading, the next 2 books are set far in the future compared to GEOD and there's no ending as Frank Herbert unfortunately passed away before he could finish the series. The next 2 books do introduce some really crazy ideas so they still might be worth reading because of that. Depends on how much you liked the series. Personally I think GE is a good place to stop.
I would consider Foundation to be the Lord of the Rings of sci-fi and Dune to be the Narnia of sci-fi. Anyway, I deem God Emperor perfect closure, what I know about Heretics and Chapterhouse is turning me off majorly, and for the longest time it got a clear no from me due to being two parts of a planned trilogy he never got to finish. There was a blip of interest from me when his son revealed that they had found a 50-or-so-page outline of his and were going to finish it, but that got smothered immediately by the statement that they wouldn't try to extend that tenfold into a novel as close to what would've been as they could, but replace the universe backstory reveals in it with stuff fitting with their then-recent spinoff prequels (which they've been near-constantly continuing since).
I just finished Chapterhouse and I absolutely do not regret it. The last 20% of Chapterhouse, in my opinion, goes toe to toe with anything in Dune.
However, absolutely take a break. I took a month off between God Emperor and Heretics and it was well worth it.
God Emperor is as much a Dune story as it is a philosophy text book, so you should absolutely take some time.
But when you’re ready, finish Heretics and Chapterhouse. They have their highs, some lows, a very interesting ending, and A LOT of Bene Gesserit.
The basic thing about the book is this: its ideas and concepts are much superior to its language and expression. So, while it is literature conceptually, in terms of ideas, and even in terms of commentary (an interesting take on the concept of empire, for example), it is pretty pedestrian writing, far inferior to other sci-fi classics.