You laugh but guitar hero sol will ground viper you so fast on a guitar hero so be careful, and also there was a dragon ball fighterz player using a rockband piano, and they won their local tournament, so you laugh, but you will get slapped, hell initial t got really close to winning Canada cup in guilty gear using a steering wheel so I'm ready for a ddr mat using player winning evo
Aw *hell* naw! Break out the blacklights and grab ye'selves a mitt full o' bright white tubesocks knave! It shall be *Activators* at 20 paces! (Theatre at it's most raw!) xD They should do this at EVO just for the *spectacle!*
people even only play "bad" characters as some sort of defence to their own skill or something, like man just fucking play the top tier if you're complaining so much. *cough cough* low tier god *cough*
I hope this is satire. Those same people saying this should be banned can show you exactly why this should be banned. This device allows double inputs and inputs faster than whats possible on stick or hit. I can promise i would swamp u in DBFZ with this cross up. You would never be able to react to my jump dashes. Also i would be able to instantly back dash to safe if i whiff. I would absolutely wreck you and not because of skill but because this controller allows for ridiculous inputs not possible on any other input device. If u need an example, to jump dash into a combo u have to up+forward, forward. On the cross up i just have to throw the stick diagonal and press the forward button.
@Hunter Rayna no the hitbox cant. It has 1 dedicated button for each cardinal direction. You have to double tap. You cannot do it in a single motion. A pro player in the past tried to use a hitbox with multiple direction inputs and it was banned. Its a clear advantage. And I’m sorry but the only people who cant see the importance of being able to minimize time between intentions and actions are not good at fighting games 🤷🏾♂️. Think about it like this, in DBFZ high rank you will see many players doing a combo, dashing back, jump dash forward to get the mix. On a hitbox or arcade stick, you have to double tap 4, tap 9 and tap 6. On this ridiculous thing it makes it gives a clear advantage as it shaves milliseconds off this making it happen so fast there is no way to be able to punish the mix.
@Hunter Rayna if u are having a hard time understanding, compare the speed of double tapping and just hitting 2 buttons. Its clearly faster than you can double tap. Hit sticks dont have this. They have a button for up, a button for down, ect, but this thing has 2 left buttons, etc which means their inputs will always be inhumanly fast. I guess a better way to think of it is like who could spam the letter T the fastest, a guy with a regular keyboard, or a guy who’s entire keyboard is the letter T.
I've always found the idea of the FGC being the only esport to disincentivise the most optimal forms of peripherals to be a bit weird, macros excluded. It's arguably the scene most well known for its appreciation of execution.
Well game nowdays already aim to reduce that "execution" barriers tho, like SF get rif of complicated 1 frame link combos, or many games added auto combos. Even new GBFV lets u do special with 1 button
There's also this tendency for people to ignore lever/joystick differences in these discussions. Different joysticks/levers provide very different tradeoffs and advantages. Many of the advantages of hitbox and pad are also replicated on an LS-40 (a joystick with an extremely small deadzone).
I hadn't thought about that but that's a really good point. It's a myth that there's this totally "standard" input method that everyone uses or should use.
The funny thing about all of this, months later, is that the CrossUp is sort of lame to be honest. It's a neat little idea for a device, but it's incredibly unwieldly. It's really nothing compared to how easy the Hitbox is to use. And like Sajam says, the Hitbox is SUCH a better device.
yeah i had to look it up while watching this video and like.... arcade buttons for movement inputs is really good which is why the hitbox is really good, but jesus doing both with the same hand seems annoying. though I eagerly await the EVO where someone wins GF using one hand while taking sips of Monster with their other hand.
It's hard to find a youtuber or anybody visible that's willing to say that maybe, if the default controller setup is considered cheating, then the FGC is up its own ass and has utterly failed to hold developers accountable for programming a functioning game. If the dualshock breaks the game, then developers would rather require players to purchase handicap controllers than take a look at their input system. The accountability here is horrifically misdirected.
Whew, okay, a lot to unpack here. I'll start by saying I'm generally biased in that I watch you a lot and agree with you. I don't with this issue though. I've heard a lot of people talking about how pad is equivalent to hitbox/crossup. That's really hard for me to swallow. To compare to hitbox, a POV hat on a dpad is absolutely not the same thing as having four buttons for four directions. You can't hold left on a dpad and hit right to get a right input, you have to move your thumb from left to right. It's entirely different. People have argued that you can hold left on the dpad and press right on the analog stick for some games, and while that's likely true, nobody's going to convince me that it's just as fast to move down and hit a direction on an analog stick WHILE HOLDING a direction on a dpad and still be able to hit buttons at the same time without some hard proof. As for hitbox/crossup themselves, I agree that they're probably comparable, and it does seem weird to me that people would want to ban one over the other. I've never used a crossup so my opinion here isn't very strong, and I'm basing this entirely on me doing tests on my stick by mapping a button to a direction, but it feels stronger than stick and weaker than hitbox without having practiced it a lot. When people are talking about doing things that the devs didn't intend, they aren't talking about software quirks like plinking/slinking, or how combos were glitches at first, or whatever. They're talking about hardware limitations, how games are designed with the limitations of the control method in mind. There's a balance aspect to the motions required for certain moves. It takes more time to do a dragon punch motion than to press HP when people jump, and the reward is balanced around this increase in execution time and difficulty (usually, obviously things like Rising Thunder were designed with 1-button dragon punch in mind but balanced it with its own thing, i.e; cooldowns). The argument for why crossup/hitbox should be banned is that it's always going to be faster to press a button than it is to throw a lever, so people can mechanically do things faster than the devs had in mind when they were designing these things. Slow overheads are a lot easier to react to, hops (I'm a KoF player) can be dp'd instead of just jabbed on defense more consistently, that kind of thing. Also, worth noting in regards to your comment about people should just learn things instead of talking about banning them, that holds true for software quirks but it's a bit more difficult to say that when you're talking about asking people to spend hundreds of dollars. A minor point, but a point nonetheless. Now whether you think that's an issue that should be dealt with using bans is up to you. I'm on the fence about it with the crossup, but I think the hitbox ship has long since sailed even if the reasoning is the same. The weird whataboutism with pads in this issue isn't arguing in good faith the vast majority of the time, and people saying that these tools DON'T provide advantages either haven't thought it through or also aren't arguing in good faith. It really comes down to where we want to draw the line with regards to balancing games around execution in my opinion. Sorry for the long reply, but I wanted to be thorough. Good video though, I really appreciate you shining some light on all of these discussion topics lately.
"yalking about how pad is equivalent to hitbox/crossup. That's really hard for me to swallow. To compare to hitbox, a POV hat on a dpad is absolutely not the same thing as having four buttons for four directions. You can't hold left on a dpad and hit right to get a right input, you have to move your thumb from left to right." You sir are COMPLETLY WRONG it is possible by remapping as sonic fox showed and i myself can show
@@trinilawman9744 Okay, but that seems like a different issue, and one that could easily be solved as "don't allow binding multiple buttons for the same input" were people so inclined. It's still an argument about software rather than hardware. Which, coincidentally, would mean crossup is useless.
I watched this with no indication of what the cross up was and from the video, I assumed it was a macro until right at the end where you said it's not like it's a macro. Checked what was causing the issue and it's just an extra d-pad? Damn, some people really don't like new things.
is probably possible to mod the wheel to have digital triggers so you only need a light tap to either side to get the input. With that you could do SOCD korean backdashes and wavedashes just like hitboxes
@@suspecthalo already know about him, but he didn't use the wheel itself only the rest of the buttons which is just a reagular pad, because it took alot of turning until it actually sent inputs.
It was actually around 22 electrics in a row but yeah, this whole situation is a bit weird. I also noticed that most of the arguments made against the CrossUp are really just about the Hitbox instead, but those same people will say right after that the Hitbox is fine but the CrossUp is too far. People should at least remain consistent.
Im against cross up only because two set of direction inputs are most likely not intend to be used at once by the devs. But at the same time i think its up to the devs to remove this from being possible by making people pick one directional input method. Daigos gafro box got banned due to that but they also need to look at pad in sf not sure if the 2 inputs on pad make a difference in tekken
I honestly don't get it, the difficulty in doing electrics is the simultaneous Input of df and 2, not the motion or the crouch dash itself so in what way does the CrossUp make TIMING for two button presses easier with its features? This sounds more like a ploy to influence peoples' opinion about the device.
The number of electrics in a row is irrelevant; the point is that the Hitbox can do the exact same thing with literally just as much ease as the Cross|Up. It's one thing to be opposed to both, but liking one and not the other is hella weird.
Sajam is out here fighting the holy war of fighting game knowledge and technology. If there any higher power out there, please help this man, help these people.... they don't get it.
That was the only version that I owned. Playing on Super Nintendo was life changing lol. I had two Genesis controllers my mom wasn’t springing for another I didn’t even know a 6 button existed until the Saturn came out
So basicicly ban pad, wich has literally the double of the four basic direction inputs but no built in SODC at all. But we all know that capcom and TOs can't afford (also in the financial meaning of the word) to ban the most used, by far, input peripheral in tourneys.
my only issue with the cross up is having directional inputs on both hands. people want to act like thats the same thing as any other controller that allows for multi-direction but being able to use both hands fundamentally changes how you can input things. the cross up is also gated behind a $199 price tag, so this isn't something your average player will want to or possibly even be able to invest in. I don't think the cross up is ridiculously cheap or anything like that, but I do think allowing a controller that fundamentally changes how you can play the game that also isn't readily available to everyone is not something you should do. honestly though, this isn't as big a deal as people are making it out to be.
Its a pretty big deal imo, I was curious about this, so I mapped additional directional (forward and back) buttons on my keyboard right next to my 2 key, as someone who can electric with about 50-60% consistency on pad and keyboard without extra binds, doing this made it go up to 99%, I never missed an electric unless I wasn't paying attention. I did remove the binds cuz I think its not fair to the people who have been developing their electric for years , but a small part of me still wants to use it, cuz why not? I'm literally handicapping myself by not doing it. I think the devs should not be allowing multiple inputs for a single direction.
@@Silvers_7 Better ban pads then since you can use the d-pad + analog stick to allow multiple inputs for a single direction. There are several top pad players who have been doing this for years.
Developer should be the one that solve this issue, by enable only one kind of directional input at a time (analog or digital) and you can choose that before match.
Just to add to this, also state stuff. Like in SFV you can jump from crouch with a hitbox and avoid standing state (saves 8 frames). Developers just have to make sure there's no gameplay advantage just execution advantage.
The big substantive thing that people have to say about crossup and pad that isn't just "oh no new controller" uninformed flailing is the fact that both a stick and directional buttons (or dpad) allows multiple inputs in ways that aren't possible on stick and afaik are prevented internally on a hitbox. But if multiple conflicting directional inputs at once can be game-breaking, that's not on the controller, it's on the developers of that game's input-handling system, straight up. There are already fighting games in which it isn't an issue, because the software forces you to pick a direction, so the ones where it is still a problem need to catch up.
I'd really like you to go more in depth on this. I don't see how you can make your game to limit the player's inputs while also having the INSANE amount and complexity provided in Tekken. In the jumbled mess of sidesteps into electrics that area can get muddied quick.
@@balleet210 It's pretty simple on the input processing side. Many games are designed, unconsciously, around the idea that different directional inputs on the same frame are not possible. The games themselves don't impose this limit--they are relying on the actual hardware of controllers to enforce it. Most D-pads have one piece (yes even playstation pads) that precludes, say, Left+Right to be input at the same time. Same thing with a stick--it can only ever be at once position at one time. What Sajam and Moonwalk are saying is that it's a bit silly for game developers, especially 10 years after the release of the hitbox, to not take this possibility into account. Simply put, if those types of inputs break your game, it's a simple QA/Testing problem for the developers to solve, and not something that should be levied against the players. We can't close pandora's box and pretend these devices don't exist--games need to be aware of their use and write software accordingly. The only case I can see being made are for legacy games released before this was ever an issue, that aren't ever going to get a patch about it. If hitboxes break those games, either the community lives with their new metagame for better or worse, or they litigate controller usage. But litigating controller usage in a community that prizes customizable peripherals is a bit of a quagmire
Of course. If the hitbox gave you THAT much of an advantage, Top 8 in every tourney would be nothing but hitbox players. Since that is obviously not the case, high level players know they have nothing to worry about.
Funny thing is the god of tekken knee actually called it broken so your comment is stupid. Edit: also fuck the majority of the playerbase cause theyre not affected the most, right?
@@matrix3509 the reason every top 8 isnt hitbox is because learning an entirely new controller takes a fuck of alot of time and if they wanted to play at the arcade or a local they would have to use a regular stick anyway so its not worth learning an entirely new controller except for a special few. If ive been playing tekken for 15 years at the top level im not gonna switch controllers to something completely forgein. I do think we will have more high level crossup players than hitbox players due to being able to play a crossup like a normal stick and just add the extra inputs as you learn more and get better with the crossup. Its been out for less than 2 weeks (if its even out yet) so saying "well top 8 players arent using it so its fine" is dumb for now.
The advantage of the CrossUp vs. the Hitbox is the DS4 dual-input advantage: e.g. left on dpad + right on analog to evade SOCD. On a DS4, you have to learn a weird, difficult grip to do that, but on the CrossUp it's MUCH easier.
@@trajtemberg No, it's not. You're talking about pushing dpad left+ dpad right at the same time, which is not the same as dpad left + *analog* right. In order to push dpad left + analog right, you would have to have separate analog and dpad inputs, which has never been the case on a Hitbox.
I think this whole controller controversy is a bit silly. 1. Who cares if it makes executions easier, it doesnt get you top 8 easily. It maybe helps you focus on other important fundamentals, ie footsie, mixups, mental games. 2. It seems like this controversy sounds more gate keeping towards people who prefer different controllers how to play the game. It's not like hitbox or cross up have "I win" or turbo button. I'm pretty sure controller developers wouldn't implement them.
It's ironic how abusing unintended mechanics has always been considered a legit way to play and win and newcomers had to just learn and adapt but using controllers to improve execution consistency is a big no-no and that shit should be banned. I feel it all just boils down to a clash of fg player generations here. The traditionalists don't want anything to change because that's how they had fun and grew the genre. The problem is that it can't stay like that forever and fighting games have so far been the only genre that's still set in its ways so firmly.
@@recklessnick8955 It will always remain a niche until some changes are made. To grow beyond a niche, the genre has to open up to a broader audience. In order to achieve that, the genre has to become a) more flexible and b) less vague. Flexibility will come when the prerequisite isn't playing with some expensive controller and instead it's possible to play at a reasonable level with what you have, be it a keyboard or a controller. It's also important to invest in better netcodes and cross-platform play. Now that Sony is on board, there are no more excuses for not doing the latter. Transparency and usability have never been the strong suit of the fighting game genre. Decades of games doing nothing to represent important information to the player, such as frame advantage. Bugs that are later abused to the point of being accepted as "features" that only certain characters could make use of. Lack of any meaningful single-player experience to ease the player into learning how these games are played. Don't get me wrong, by the way, I love this genre and I want to see it thrive. Lifting up the gates and planting our feet down declaring it's either the old way or the highway isn't the right way to achieve growth.
@@AkibanaZero The thing is, controllers like these often boast a high price tag and are oriented towards more options and complexity in high level play. These controllers are niche, but if mastered, give a solid edge over the competition, as it allows for easy Korean backdashes and faster input speed than any other controller. This technology based advantage should not be allowed at a competitive level, as they take away from the time and effort people put into games to get onto the top. This somewhat goes for the hitbox and mixbox as well, but those have implications for getting beginners into the game easier as well as having only one set of directional inputs, making them more fair than the CrossUp. As for pad, though an odd control scheme can be assigned to achieve the same thing (which I also feel should be banned), it only allows for one direction to be pressed at a time, and it requires proper sliding of the thumb to be used properly. The Cross-up is both alienating for new players and destructive at a high level of play, making it easily ban worthy.
Speedrunners do this all the time. Like a route gets run a lot and then someone comes up with something crazy they want to ban it. They usually solve the prob by just adding another category eventually.
This sorta discussion makes me think of Melee community reaction to anything except Gamecube controllers. Like, tech in the game requires abnormal controllers for consistency and people will still argue that it should be illegal to use anything other than GCCs. It's something that seems beyond absurd to me as a casul viewer of the game: "I need to get notches put into my 1/1000 defective controller to be able to execute all the tech I want, but not we shouldn't allow other/better controller designs because then it's too easy/not as impressive". I dunno if that view has changed in recent years, but that's essentially the sort of argument I'd see about it when I paid attention to the game. Like, yeah, no one should be allowed to macro multiple inputs to a single button, but having different controllers with different button setups to make tech easier shouldn't be frowned upon; it just makes the game more accessible.
other controllers are fine, but the issue with the box approaches was that you could literally run faster than was possible on controller. It's been adjusted now, and i def don't have issues with it as long as it's in line with what's possible, even if it makes execution easier.
@@d7omi111 Dude, it's braindead easy to get 100% electrics on a hitbox. I too was able to do it my first time playing Tekken. The issue is that it relies on an awkward input that makes it not so amazing outside practice mode, it doesn't make your electric fast (and can in fact slow it down as you have to take time to position your fingers correctly), and it doesn't win you games.
It wasnt 5 electrics it was 22 in a row without ever having played a Tekken game in his life. IMO anything with 2 (easily accessible) sets of directional inputs should be banned. No one on the planet uses a pad whilst using the stick and dpad at the same time to their advantage.
You cant say that, Du used dpad and analog on sf4 for guile boom. And even if anyone used both you cant complain about it bc games are made to work with dpad and analog working at the same time
Correct me if I am wrong, but before the hitbox came out, new players were discouraged from using pad because a stick was considered to be so much better and so much more advantageous than using a pad. Then, when the hitbox came out, a lot of people wanted it banned because they thought it was so much better and more advantageous than using a stick. I think I personally feel that as long as a peripheral does not contain macros, it is fair to use. If someone comes up with a new design for a controller that has 3 different up buttons, then part of the strength of that controller is also in the time it takes the player to adjust to a different layout and become comfortable with the controller. It reminds me a bit of how when using a weapon, you are most effective with it when it becomes an extension of your body, like as a longer arm, or a longer part of your arm. I guess that it also makes sense since in a fighting game, the controller is your weapon, and some weapons might click for some people, but seem useless to others.
Always had the problem that my directional inputs are better on a pad but my right hand wants to be positioned like I'm using an arcade stick. Hitbox doesn't bridge that gap for me. Don't think the cross up would really makes that much of difference either.
If anything that lowers execution requirements is bad then *plinking* is bad. Ergo if you want hitbox/cross-up/pad banned then you should also want plinking banned to be logically consistent.
true, but it's still pressing an extra button to make execution easier is different from outright using a less effortful method of input. Obviously this doesn't always apply, but it's my two cents on why it's different
This is a straw man. People that have a problem with leverless controllers are not complaining about *anything* that lowers the execution requirements. They are complaining about allowing devices with objective advantages in a competitive setting. In their view, what makes the competition interesting has nothing to do with what kind of device you use, so having advantages over that kind of choice seems wack. EDIT: btw being able to do electrics on a crossup or a hitbox is a dumb argument, you can do that shit on any device. The actual advantages with leverless controllers have to do with not having to deal with the travel time of a lever, which enables certain techniques to be executed faster (like instead of 6f it only takes 4f, that kind of thing)
Idk why you're pretending like you haven't heard the fgc cry about the hitbox since it's debut in like 2012. People have always bitched about hitbox, and before hitbox people bitched about pad. Not saying it's right or wrong but it's not like everyone was at peace with the peripherals until the crossup magically showed up and THEN made people salty. Just saying
@@zzzlucid_dreams7560 Hmm. I think you might be misinterpreting what I said, I admit it was a bit ambigouos. I meant that people are reacting much more harshly to the CrossUp then they are the Hitbox. People, at least nowadays, seem to be much more okay with the HitBox then they are with the CrossUp. I meant if you go to any CrossUp video, you can tell how people feel about it.
What makes the Cross|Up different from the Hitbox or Pad is that you can use both your right and left hand for movement and both a stick and button input as well. In theory, Hitbox is better because it is more intuitive and can make execution just as easy but the Cross|Up circumvents the design of the game's technical mechanics - in this case, how movement is executed. Tekken, Street Fighter and Soulcalibur (I'm not sure about other games) don't allow you to map movement to face buttons and vice versa. They also don't allow you to have multiple inputs for the same movement direction (you can't map two forward buttons). The only exception might be games that allow using both the d-pad and left analog stick for movement but both of these inputs are placed on the left of the controller which makes it very awkward. The Cross|Up allows you to do that when the game doesn't. I'm not talking about rewiring inputs or using special mapping software. TheMainMan has a great video explaining what makes the Cross|Up unique and potentially problematic. If it's legal, then yeah, we as players just need to adapt or game developers need to redesign their games around these controllers. I think there is a good case though for why the Cross|Up maybe too much.
my fear is that devs could take the easy route and just ban the crossup forever and keep arcade sticks limits as a standard, which could mean most fighting games in the future won't be designed around hitbox and will never make full use of its capabilities. The good thing about the CrossUp is that it does raise the limits of the current arcade stick and is on par with hitboxes, which is enough to make future games take advantage of it and progress execution further, but I doubt jp devs will ever notice it unless people adopt it and use it in official tournaments
It's also about availability/accessibility. Even if Hitbox Crossup or Hitbox in general is shown to be the absolute best periphery, how much will non-US shipping be? (for hitbox it's a lot) And then you have the risk of customs charges etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but pads were allowed because (amongst other reasons) it was a positive for accessibility. And even if i'm wrong, that's a good enough reason to allow them in my opinion. They're way cheaper than a stick and most people who had a console had one anyway. Hitbox and Crossup are both advantageous and also less accessible than a stick (a lot of the time you can buy regular sticks from vendors within your region and thus not get charged insane shipping) and obviously less accessible than a pad too. So everyone can't just switch because it's better anyway. I agree though, the same stand should have been taken against the Hitbox all along. Imo they should have been restricted to people who needed them for medical reasons from the get-go (because that is the accessibility positive that hitbox provides). I think this would have been the best set-up in the goal of standardising for integrity whilst maintaining accessibility for as many people as possible. But it's too late now, and it doesn't make sense to ban the Crossup if the community has accepted the Hitbox. And trying to ban the Hitbox now would cause way too much controversy with the amount of hitbox players, it also wouldn't be fair on all of them who have spent days/months/years learning the periphery because they were told it's allowed. The only solution now is what Sajam alluded to, the developers have to update the software to not allow certain peripheries to do things that other commonly used ones cannot.
The guy actually did 22 electrics. 22 in a row is a lot, not even most experienced mishima players can do that and that guy was playing for the first time
@@generallytrash This man just said "So what" 😂. Do you even know how insnae doing 22 electrics for your first time playing Tekken is? Its basiclaly impossible with any other device...
the problem I think people have with the cross up is that you have your joystick on the left hand while also have directional buttons on the right, this is extremely powerful in most fighting games, you can do it with pad but it's not as easy as doing it on the cross up.
This conversation is literally just Melee all over again... "Wave-cheating" and "fun-cancelling." ROFL New tech is new tech. Adapt or die, scrubs! So yeah I'm with you Sajam: "What's up? I'm a no-honor having bitch. I'm right here." 🤣
If the input device allows you to do an input in a more comfortable or easy way but its still the same input its not cheating. Its just a better input device. Thats where all those comparisons with macros and 1 button tiger knees fail: those things dont require you to do the same input anymore thus they are cheating.
I can understand that it can be considered unfair or even cheating. I think Daigo talked about this long time ago that with Hitbox he can do an earlier dp in certain situations which leads to oki pressure that would normally not be available.
I think it's way too soon to say if the hitbox is better than the crossup or vice versa. The fact is that the cross up will offer something that we haven't had access to in a mainstream controller yet, which is the ability to reliably and easily combine dpad and analog stick inputs without changing Playstation system settings. This will likely present unique advantages to the crossup, the limits of which we don't yet know (because again, it's not even out yet lol). The 22 electrics in a row thing is a great example of an area where the crossup is actually advantaged over the hitbox. Doing P2 electrics on hitbox is actually still really hard (for me it's even harder than stick), because you don't have a way of easily using the same hand to input the df and the 2 button, which is what makes the tech easy on P1 side. On the crossup, you have the ability to do this on both P1 and P2 extremely easily. Again, this isn't to make the case that the crossup is superior, just that I think it's way too soon to be making blanket statements like "the hitbox is better than the crossup" because I think it's pretty likely that people will come up with new ways of taking advantage of the crossup's unique layout.
The guy did like 19 in a row. The pad argument is kinda pointless cause holding your pad like that is awkward inconsistent at best. Lol reverse claw style with your left hand ?
@@Chaoskae I have yet to see someone using claw style with their left hand to push the analog and directional button at the same time but tbh you might be onto something 🤔
For me, as someone who has played on every input method, the crossup is a really interesting device. Pad, stick and HitBox all make sense because you grow up on them. Console players grow up using pad, kids that frequent arcades grow up on stick, kids that play PC grow up on keyboard (with HitBox being the FGC keyboard). The CrossUp has no logical path other than itself. The cool thing about it is its ability to do pad tech, which includes a couple things not even doable on HitBox. That being said, I play HitBox now almost exclusively-- not because of ease of execution, tech, or any other clickbaity claim. I play HitBox because I grew up on PC and played everything with keyboard, including fighting games. For me I think it's a little silly to pick an input method that alien with the only reason being tech.
The more complex imputs of special attacks are intended to make those moves harder to execute, that is the whole point, the developers know that D-pads and Joysticks have 2 restrictions, 1) it is imposible to imput 2 adjacent directions; and 2) because of this, there is a short travel time if you wanna imput an opposite direction after another, unlike keyboards and leaverless controllers. Knowing this, game developers used it for their advantage and balanced their characters by using complex imputs for special moves, which offer more damage and utility, but at the cost of a little time waste at the execution of the command, this is further reinforced when you see games like Mortal Kombat, where the game designers intentionally eliminated any complex imput, using 1 or 2 directions for each special attack as a mean to expand the characters move list rather than using the commands to balance their game, thats why in MK they use 1 button dedicated to block, so the players can go forward without the travel time of the stick, relying almost entirely on frame data to balance their characters. And as said before, only D-pads and joysticks have this physical restrictions, which are there by design and then used by fighting game designers to balance their games, on the contrary, keyboards and leaverless controllers do not have this restrictions, giving any player that takes the time to get use to them to unfairly bypass a game mechanic. I am not against keyboards and leaverless controllers themselves, I am against their use in games like KOF and SF where the physical mechanics of the controllers are a part of the game balance system, however, these controllers are perfectly fine for games like DNF Duel, MK and Injustice, since their balance system relies on frame data and hitboxes, thats why their developers intentionally removed complex imputs.
If people dont have a problem with a new guy hitting 22 electrics in a row, when do I get to use macros for full combos? How about a kazuya macro that does 9 pewgf in a row and reduce enemy's life to 10% at the start of the match?
No, coz macro that way is cheap, its a mapped 1 button combo. Cross up still requires some practice to get used to and do stuff with it consistently just like other controllers.
Yeah, I agree. Why not? *THE FUTURE IS NOW OLD MAN!* Who cares about execution anyway. Oh, don't forget to spit on pad and stick players who grind PEWGF for years on the way out. Who cares about us? Buncha losers, masochistic old men (I'm 20 tho) wasting time dedicating ourselves to a video game. Pffffft. Get a life. Technology is evolving eitherway, old cucks. Just buy it, or kick sand pendejo. Amirite?
@@invertbrid yes and my macro is going to require me to input ki charge. Its going to be hard at first but since we can lower the barrier of entry of any skillful move then might as well right?
I initially had your opinion, because there is nothing in the cross-up that I am opposed to in principle. However, after considering fighting games as art, I believe the cross-up specifically should be banned specifically for Tekken tournaments. - The type of execution that ewgf requires is extreme coordination between the left and right hands. - There is no software solution that could be done to prevent the cross-up from breaking this requirement. More generally, there is no way of designing a game that requires this type of coordination that would not also be broken by the cross-up. - There is value in having a game that rewards this type of coordination. The only way to protect this value is by banning the cross-up from the game in question.
Its certainly a complex subject. I think most peoples issue is that it allows for you to have two methods of input movement simultaneously (dpad and analog) which allows for some stuff that a lot of people aren't able to currently do (at least easily). It comes across as a pretty strong tactic, and seeing as how current FG developers haven't really made any statements or changed their game to allow or not allow multiple directional methods that it pushes it further into the gray area. As you said the cross-up feels like a middle ground / catch up area for stick players to be in a similar place to hitbox players, so pretty much a new industry standard. I know a lot of guys wouldn't like having to buy a new stick which probably adds to the distaste for it. Hell, I know people who are still using ps3, even ps2 sticks and pads with converters because its cheaper than buying a new stick and they like to stay with what they've been using for years.
My problem with the Cross-Up and to a certain extent the regular Hitbox is that it allows for directional inputs with both hands. That creates certain shortcuts not everyone has access to.
My main and only real hold up with both the Crossup and Hitboxes in general is that on the Dualshock 4 PS4 controller, to my knowledge, you can't hold opposite directions on the D-Pad at the same time. I was told this was because of how the PS4's D-Pad is constructed as opposed to a worn down SNES D-Pad or an Xbox 360 D-Pad, not sure if true. You could hold opposite directions using the D-Pad one direction and the left analog stick in the other, but I think that's a significant jump from what you can do with the Crossup and the Hitbox. I have less of an issue with the Crossup and Hitbox than I do with the Smashbox/B0xx/etc. controllers for smash. Analog to digital is wrong imo.
How does the Crossup not have more in common with something like a Gafrobox than a regular Hitbox? What about a Hitbox that has 2 sets of directional inputs? I think if pad analog sticks were more accessible for both hands like the Crossup, there'd be less people complaining. Pad analog sticks are generally less accurate. I'd argue this would be more similar to allowing pads to map additional directions on the shoulder buttons.
if those new modular pads like the astro c40 allow you to swap the analogs so the movement analog is on the right side, then you could play tekken claw style with your thumb on the analog. I hope some new style of fight pads comes around with comfortable analog position to use analog + dpad
The analog sticks are already accessible. People are just holding them how they're meant to be held. But map the normals to the shoulder buttons and see how easy it is to use the analog stick and dpad
Chaoskae that’s an actual good way to keep execution difficult. Motions and sequential timings make inputs tough on any controller. Same frame inputs like electrics are naturally going to be easier on some layouts than others, so if your goal is to make execution difficult they’re not a good way to do that
By input shortcut I think he means motion shortcuts. Like not having to do the full 6323 for dp, not having to 1>9/3>7 for forward and back super jumps, not having to do full 360s, etc
Input shortcuts in some games make more technical option selects and conversions possible that wouldn't be. 3rd strike /kof is about as lenient as it should get. Sf4/5 were garbage.
I think the crossup is fine. Mostly. My only issue is for older games what with analog stick plus dpad at the same time, which also applies to pad. Fortunately Hitbox | Crossup lets you rebind so in worst case we can require only left analog or dpad, to force it to go through the SOCD cleaner in the device. Because some old games literally let you block on both sides at once. Ideally this should be handled at the converter level, rather than by banning controllers.
Coming back to this now that I have a Crossup, it's moreso the best parts of stick and hitbox, but I don't think it does anything a pad couldn't. All the buttons on a pad are on a Crossup. Just in more ergonomic and sensible places.
sf2 had magic series cause of how the buffer system worked, or look at smash melee's near 20 year history though a lot of those "glitches" were developer intended like samus extender uses leftover debug code, wavedashing/wavelanding are from the physics engine because landing transfers the momentum from the airdodge, I forget exactly how moonwalking works but the input is forward to down-back without going to neutral and you end up with a forward dash that has more acceleration going the opposite direction because reasons. Fun facts about melee: gaw is unfinished because he was just assigned a random shield value and some aerials can't be l-canceled, marth and roy's swords glitch on dreamland when wispy blinks which is one of my favorites, IC's have the freeze glitch, most characters have 3-5 frame jumpsquat but bowser has a whopping 8 frames of jumpsquat which is the second-highest in the series with the highest being Brawl Snake at 9 frames, speaking of Brawl: Meta Knight. Every game has some busted shit, I think melee had a dev time of like 13ish months or something so yeah good times, been around 19 years lol
The example of mouse and keyboard for League of Legends is interesting to me because I bought a Razer Naga so I could map a bunch of things to the 12 side buttons it has so I almost never had to take my fingers off of QWER. It definitely made it easier to activate items and use abilities at the same time.
Why your wrong is the hitbox doesn't have 2 sets of directional inputs. The cross up does. Also you completely were wrong about the facts of the "guy did 5 electrics" in a row, he did 22 not five. If you gave a hitbox to that same dude, who has never played Tekken before Tekken 7, he would never hit 22 in a row and I bet you couldn't first try either.
I believe you're objectionably wrong because it has multiple ways to input forward and d/f. literally is easier than hitbox. And developers shouldn't be responsible for something the game was't designed for.
Halcyon Days are you saying, it’s not our problem if the developers don’t care. They should be on top of bullshit like this even when Mr. Wizard allows this at the worlds biggest FGC event.
@@progamerhennessey9483 hitbox was created 10 years ago, nothing the cross-up does is new. And yes, developers should design their games around what controllers are available and used, and unfortunately arcade sticks (the most limited one) is also one of the most popular ones, so devs are forced to keep execution down to its limits. If a lot of sticks players adopt the cross-up as a new standard for arcade sticks, then the limits change, devs will be forced to design their next games with those new limits in mind, and that will open more advanced/complex execution for future games simply because the current controllers allow for faster and more precise inputs. It will break current games like T7 but most japanese devs won't see it unless we break their games right in front of their eyes
@UCiMNQkVqpe7glExAOT9Ezmg I simply care more about a future were fighting games are designed with hitbox levels of performance in mind, so we can finally progress execution further, and arcade sticks being trash and popular is the main thing getting in the way. Whatever devs decide to do with balance is their job. I will finish watching TMM's video, thank you
No they dont. We been telling fps gamers on the console side that gyro aiming is way better. As in faster and more accurate. But they all say "ew motion controls" but I do get what you are talking about. Its litterally only switch gamers that play splatoon and the few shooters on switch that actually like it. Meanwhile xbox and playstation players are very against it. And the ps4 controller can do gyro aiming too if they wanted it.
@@kraken7784 it is though. It's not as good as mouse but it certainly is better than simple old analog. Heck there is a youtube video or two up about that specifically.
it's another case of people only hate it for one of two reasons one: it's a new thing that creates an alternative from established tradition (which people historically have hated for irrational reasons) two: it reduces the barrier to entry which vets (and then subsequently ignore the probabilities of it being a crutch tool that will never outperform players with actual skill and proper game knowledge)
thats pretty easy to do on p1 with a hitbox. like extremely easy, the issue is these shortcut inputs put your hands/fingers out of position to play reactively
@@Angel7black exactly, it's one thing to do a bunch electrics on training mode with your hands tottaly out of position, another thing completely doing it in a match after you just kbd to whiff punish something.
Here's what you do. Bind your '2' button under your right directional input, and bind 2+3 under your left directional input. Now you have one finger that can do both your forward input and your '2' input at the same time. PLEASE tell me how your hands are out of position when you make these changes??? Because f,n,d,df 2+3 isn't a move, you get Wind God Fist instead. Try it.
@@SupermanSajam I still think the ability to do both your forward input AND your '2' input with a single finger is very strong. As I said in a previous reply, binding your '2' under your right input and your '2+3' under your left input makes this a lot easier than trying to sync both your hands and do it that way, or making the adjustment with your right hand and moving it over, though you can only do that with the 'right' direction (or P1 side). I don't see how that advantage can be seen as equal to a hitbox, both P1 and P2 side. What I said above eliminates that barrier.
My biggest flaw was being adamant about using fightpads (the big D pads), which both limited my options and honestly I wasn't that good. When I learned analogue, it made it so I could use any controller and I have gotten so much better. And having all the pad bumpers made it even better.
Nah arcade scene is dying outside japan. Less and less ppl will play it in the future. Most ppl who use arcade stick is the one who grew up with it......which most likely 90s or early 2000 era players.
actually, in the Apex Legends scene, there's a big controversy about allowing people on cotrollers play in tournaments with people on m&k because of aim assist being alleedly too busted. Some pros tried switching to controller but didn't stick to it (pun not intended) and in ranked games you still hear people complain about "getting controllered" with the same tone of voice they'd use if they got killed by an actual cheater. I actually wish everyone did switch to controller. if it'sthat good, so that the whole debate can die off. but there are some things you can't do as well on controller, or at all, that are movement based, so lifetime m&k players value those options more than lasering people with the help of aim assist.
...so the D-pad can press both opposed directionals at the same time as the Hitbox? Can the D-pad circunvent Tekken's Up+Down=Neutral by changing the final input into Up? How the fuck can someone replicate that on a D-pad or arcade stick?
Everybody saying "Fighting games is all about he execution" is exercising the "No true scotsman fallacy." "That's easy? no true fighting game should allow things tobe easy/easier. It's all about the purity of execution." It's funny how much cognitive dissonance is exercised in the FGC. Here's one take: "That character is cheap af." most people pick the cheap shit. I lived this in Marvel 3 and still do to this day. The same people: "This controller is cheap af. BAN THAT SHIT, I AIN'T DEALIN GWITH THAT!"...boy...too funny. I just body them on HitBox and heal myself with their tears of sodium. Btw, I am a fan of yours now Sajam. Great content dude!
First off, it's not a no true scotsman because the issue isn't an arbitrary classification of a "true" fighting game, that's a strawman. The argument is that the game is fundamentally unbalanced and not working as intended when execution, which it's used as balance, is removed. -- it's that simple. You're way off the mark.
The thing about the Cross|Up is that it has an over abundance of input options compared to a hitbox/stick, that alone is what sets it apart from a hitbox when we are talking about whats ban worthy, even if the hitbox's buttons are better placed the crossup allows use of both directional buttons and the the joystick simultaneously allowing macro-esque input options to be a thing without using an actual macro, doesnt the Capcom Pro Tour not allow over abundance of inputs on any controller peripherals because of that?
If a player uses SOCD set to last input then the game developer can do nothing to prevent that. I think any modification of the players input should be not allowed (that means no SOCD or other input altering chips at all). When the game can not handle something properly then the input device is not valid. Just my 2 cent.
I honestly don't see how anyone thinks hitbox is better than the crossup when it comes to execution, then again, I haven't used the hitbox nor the crossup but it's still just bizarre to me
Nein. Two sets of directional inputs competely bypass execution limitations in a way neither pad not hitbox do. Ban analog+pad being used simultaneously, or remapping of directional commands to shoulder buttons, but the hitbox and pad sit fine whereas the crossup very much dismantles execution barriers in games built around them.
What execution barriers specifically does it bypass? I've used a hitbox for about 3 years now and I can't think of a single thing that the crossup can do that a hitbox can't.
@@cameronbarker7461 You can input a direction with a button as soon as the stick returns to neutral. No amount of spring tension or rubber grommets is going to be faster than that. I think a regular Hitbox is fine, but watching Dragunov's iWR2 come out with the speed and consistency of f,f+2 means that more complex inputs will just be outright faster.
Yeah this is reactionary nonsense. What execution barriers does bypass exactly? And just because you want to use ages old arcade technology that wasn't designed for competitive play doesn't mean everyone should have to. If you want to keep playing Starcraft on the N64 controller then you can do that, but I'm gonna use a m/kb.
no real barrier. just a lot of people who would have to face the reality that execution isnt the reason theyre mediocre or execution is the only thing carrying them from not being totally ass, this stick would have zero effect on top, high or even most upper mid level players. at best you have some green rank in tekken ranked spamming electrics in one spot aimlessly and without purpose being to get high crushed to death
In Japan, all of these cheatboxes are simply called "Leverless Controls" because you aren't actuating a lever to access the switches for your directional movement. Conventional joysticks also require two hands to perform a direction and attack. That is what generates the difficulty in execution. Timing a switch you control with a lever on one hand, with a switch you activate with a momentary button on the other. The Cheatboxes bypass both requirements by allowing both directional and attacks to use the same input method, and also have them in such close proximity that they both can be actuated with a single hand. Simultaneous input is nearly guaranteed with no practice which is the only possible way you're hitting 22 electrics in a row as a newbie. On PC, I can try to do electrics with Kazuya on my pad for an hour and still only hit it a few times. On the keyboard, I literally hit 3 buttons with 3 fingers and I get it every time. I don't think that a pad is cheating on this level for this reason. Nearly all DPads are, in fact, tiny joysticks which pivot off of a lever to actuate their rubber dome switches. They also generally cannot be actuated with one hand and if you can, they certainly actuate differently from the rubber dome face buttons. That inherently creates a difference in their timing, same as Joystick. I agree it's on the developers to ensure that inputs aren't abused. I'm mainly talking about allowing for multiple directional input methods (Pad and Stick for dual shock) or in the case of Crossup, (Stick and D pad simulated buttons), but it's clear as day that the cheatboxes are superior input devices to joysticks on every metric. It's like bringing an electric bike to the tour de France. Sure you're going to be better than the entire competition, but is it really that impressive? Might as well start macroing if you eliminate the challenge altogether.
try to see pro play the cross up especially jdcr..... crouch cancel perfect electric should not be possible but someone can do it apparently due to cross up another thing to add is the side step problem... all tekken games we couldn't side step towards the camera when we are in the force crouch position.... but with the cross up we can those are the advantages of the cross up
You seem like the type of guy that hates electronic music because it's "to easy". Without ever taking a step back to realize it's about what you know and not what you can do. Sure doing something like a technically demanding solo might feel cool but nobody really cares about how the meat was made. What matters is what you know about the subject. Should any advancements be stopped because people take pride in the fact that they didn't have that 20 years ago?
This is late but actually, in Tekken 7 Kazuya can electric from crouch without crouch cancelling. He can perform any of his crouch dash moves from crouch. The cross up does not allow you to sidestep into the foreground when you are forced crouch, that is literally impossible no matter the device.
What you said about FPS and moba players not caring about input devices isn't quite true; hipshot dots have been the subject of a discussion similar to what we are having now.
thats not really the same thing, even though it is sorta the same discussion. The correct analogy would be if a new mouse came out and people were alledging that it gave people better accuracy because of a better sensor or some shit.
A hitbox won't stop you from dropping combos or increase your wits or timing. I played GG Xrd Rev2 in Daytona against a hitboxer and didn't lose 1 match in a FT10. I use ps4 control stick.
Now imagine coming to the game, hoping to learn fundamentals only to learn you can skip em if you pay for a certain controller. Like it or not something will be lost because of the cross up. And that FT10 victory, congrats, but how long do you think people will give a damn about your skills, you will just fall by the wayside cause unlike cross up players you still need to think of execution unless you fork over some dough too :p
@@zwartesoep2010 I do not think there is a controller available that will let you skip les fundies. Lets play the imagine a guy in a sports bar who says he has the most amazing punch in the world but also lets it slip during conversation that he has never been in a fight and has poor depth perception. Would you even consider his killer punch a threat if he is gonna only be able to hit the air? The potential to do what you need to do is possible with any device. One's comfort with that device, whatever it may be, will be the determinant factor as to their ability to perform well.
Gaming is interesting in this regard, because most sports REQUIRE you to use regulation gear. For example: basketball, football, soccer and so on require a regulation ball. It can't be heavier, lighter, a different size, etc. But for eSports there is a mentality of "players can use what feels natural to them" even if that controller gives them a unique advantage...kinda crazy
I think that analogy doesn’t hold up. There are things that are highly regulated in sports and things that aren’t highly regulated. Just like with esports. In sports, the size of the field and the ball you play with and the rules of the game are strictly regulated. However, you’re likely allowed to wear whatever uniform you like generally, the shoes you wear can be whatever brand you want within reason, you can wear all kinds of different accessories within reason. With esports, you all play the same version of the game, on the same console, with the same in-game rules. I think the difference between choosing what kind of cleats you wear and what kind of controller you use is much more comparable than the dimensions of the field or ball you use being changed. Changing controllers doesn’t inherently change what is possible to perform in the game in the same way that changing your cleats doesn’t change how you perform in any significant way. If you changed a soccer ball to look more like a football then that would change what’s possible to do in the game immediately.
its just the extra buttons I think so you can get cheatbox electrics on both sides, hitbox would be op with extra directional buttons. Thats why gafrobox was banned too. Im a hitbox player and I dont mind crossup, but the extra directional buttons near the normal buttons could help a lot.
Here's what you do. Bind your '2' button under your right directional input, and bind 2+3 under your left directional input. Now you have one finger that can do both your forward input and your '2' input at the same time. Because f,n,d,df 2+3 isn't a move, you get a Wind God Fist instead. Your hand isn't out of place at all. There is no strain. I'm sure stuff like this is applicable to other characters as well. You can sorta do stuff like this on a HitBox if you use your right hand to hit some of the inputs, but a crossup makes that shit incredibly easy.
This might be a PC thing only, but you can't map specific directional inputs to perform face button inputs on console. At the very least, this applies to Tekken and SC.
@@XIVDock what? I'm talking about binding the '2' and the '2+3' on the button under the directional input. It's only 1 finger because you're using your whole finger to do it
I'm confused by what 1 frame links are and the only thing I can think it's that there must be no buffet system or something. Can someone please explain what that is?
As I understand it, that's basically it. There is only a single frame for you to hit the button and have it combo. A frame sooner and the attack won't come out. A frame later and it's blockable. Plinking gives you a second chance to hit that single frame.
Backdash canceling in Tekken is precisely the best example: the Tekken team hated the exploit during TTT and it resulted in Tekken 4, the weakest entry in the series, which removed the exploit at range 2. Nobody liked that game yet it was the most pure "developer designed" Tekken entry in the whole series. KBC is currently in the game (however, **serverely nerfed**) because the player base had no respect for "developer designed balancing", but here we are, with people complaining about Hitbox years after their release. Banning Hitboxes will also result in the prohibition of keyboard controls. How nobody is talking about this baffles me: the FGC is spitting in the face of a vast set of players who grew up playing on keyboards and will not be able to simply transition into a pad or a stick. Hitbox is the best controller method for **most inputs**, not all, however it comes with an execution requirement far higher than stick and controller. I have yet to see a high profile competitor who switched to hitbox and remained successful. I won't go into the discussion of the Cross Up, as I agree that fighting games should limit directional inputs to one source as a protection method against strong hypothetical OSs. However, this is a developer-side issue and not a community problem. If fighting games (like Tekken 7) still allow players to set both the stick and the D-pad as directional inputs there cannot be an argument against controllers designed to take advantage of this software-level oversight. Controller bans open a wider discussion on what "developer intentions", "competitive integrity" and "open format" entails within the FGC. Can we truly ascertain that contemporary fighting games are design with arcade sticks in mind? Is SFV truly design for arcades even though I came out on console years in advance? Can we truly call Tekken 7's Claudio a "stick character"? Can the arcade stick be hailed as the controller of choice for fighting games in a world in which any decent world tour uses PS4 as the console of choice? Shouldn't we just ban any controller that isn't a Dualshock 4 for consistency with World Tour setups? Can we talk about the inclusivity of our community when console controllers and keyboards are in danger of being banned from competition and new players are **actually forced** into buying hulking, 250€ boxes only worth using in a handful of games?
The hitbox is not the same as the cross up. The key difference here is that you have 2 sets of movement inputs. And the clip you were talking about with the ewgf, the guy did 22 ewgfs not 5. Edit: this rambling had like no point to prove ur just going on and on about banning the hitbox and the crossup. Talk about things like how easy it is to pick up a crossup and do electrics for a new player, and sidestepping right on p1 from crouch which is impossible to do on a hitbox.
5:45 a better analogy than LoL for this would be World of Warcraft PVP and how people realized that having a bunch of buttons on the side of your mouse that your thumb can press real quick was super helpful.
I agree 100% with this another thing to concider is accuation distance of a button.. On the razer raion fight pad the shoulder buttons click like mouse clicks and allows for pressing buttons at exactly the same time as opposed to having to verry slightly plink your imputs do to the dpad or arcade stick having different accuation distances then the attack buttons... I can do EWGF everytime using L1 as 2 rather then triangle simply because of button accuation distance
They should ban every type of fg controllers and only allow music game peripherals. Donkey Konga kongos vs. Guitar hero controller.
Maybe also allow the power glove and the Kinect. Would be very neat.
You laugh but guitar hero sol will ground viper you so fast on a guitar hero so be careful, and also there was a dragon ball fighterz player using a rockband piano, and they won their local tournament, so you laugh, but you will get slapped, hell initial t got really close to winning Canada cup in guilty gear using a steering wheel so I'm ready for a ddr mat using player winning evo
I'd unironically like this, shyt would be tight af.
Aw *hell* naw! Break out the blacklights and grab ye'selves a mitt full o' bright white tubesocks knave! It shall be *Activators* at 20 paces! (Theatre at it's most raw!) xD They should do this at EVO just for the *spectacle!*
I'll pay to see someone rock a guilty gear top players shit with sol bad guy on a guitar hero guitar.
Fighting game players just can't stand the idea of someone suffering any less than they have.
You're so right. There's a bunch of prideful masochists playing these games
people even only play "bad" characters as some sort of defence to their own skill or something, like man just fucking play the top tier if you're complaining so much. *cough cough* low tier god *cough*
I hope this is satire. Those same people saying this should be banned can show you exactly why this should be banned. This device allows double inputs and inputs faster than whats possible on stick or hit.
I can promise i would swamp u in DBFZ with this cross up. You would never be able to react to my jump dashes. Also i would be able to instantly back dash to safe if i whiff. I would absolutely wreck you and not because of skill but because this controller allows for ridiculous inputs not possible on any other input device.
If u need an example, to jump dash into a combo u have to up+forward, forward. On the cross up i just have to throw the stick diagonal and press the forward button.
@Hunter Rayna no the hitbox cant. It has 1 dedicated button for each cardinal direction. You have to double tap. You cannot do it in a single motion. A pro player in the past tried to use a hitbox with multiple direction inputs and it was banned. Its a clear advantage. And I’m sorry but the only people who cant see the importance of being able to minimize time between intentions and actions are not good at fighting games 🤷🏾♂️.
Think about it like this, in DBFZ high rank you will see many players doing a combo, dashing back, jump dash forward to get the mix. On a hitbox or arcade stick, you have to double tap 4, tap 9 and tap 6. On this ridiculous thing it makes it gives a clear advantage as it shaves milliseconds off this making it happen so fast there is no way to be able to punish the mix.
@Hunter Rayna if u are having a hard time understanding, compare the speed of double tapping and just hitting 2 buttons. Its clearly faster than you can double tap. Hit sticks dont have this. They have a button for up, a button for down, ect, but this thing has 2 left buttons, etc which means their inputs will always be inhumanly fast.
I guess a better way to think of it is like who could spam the letter T the fastest, a guy with a regular keyboard, or a guy who’s entire keyboard is the letter T.
I've always found the idea of the FGC being the only esport to disincentivise the most optimal forms of peripherals to be a bit weird, macros excluded. It's arguably the scene most well known for its appreciation of execution.
fightsticks have become like a badge of participation in a subculture at this point rather than most efficient peripheral.
Michael Hoang mhm. Core-A's video comparing the FGC to religion rings true.
Well game nowdays already aim to reduce that "execution" barriers tho, like SF get rif of complicated 1 frame link combos, or many games added auto combos. Even new GBFV lets u do special with 1 button
Why ban macros? Macros are superior!
@@kevinmercurio9597 lol
Ban pads, ban hitboxes, ban keyboards and never release a fighting game on PC and also ban octagon gate sticks.
Noooooooes! Mah Activator! (sorta') :3
Sticks with octagon gates need to come with labels telling others.
VR ONLY FIGHTING GAMES but you can't be anything less than fat. fat ppl only. can't let skinny people have an advantage
Lol at "can't let skinny people have an advantage" xD
We should also collaborate with SSB Melee rulemakers. They know a thing or two about banning controllers
I'm just out here waiting for VR controllers, try stop my inputs then
I play killer instinct with Xbox Kinect....
@@kevint1655 Activator on Eternal Champions....
my mind control will beat your hand controllers any day
Teleroboxer ftw
There's also this tendency for people to ignore lever/joystick differences in these discussions. Different joysticks/levers provide very different tradeoffs and advantages. Many of the advantages of hitbox and pad are also replicated on an LS-40 (a joystick with an extremely small deadzone).
I hadn't thought about that but that's a really good point. It's a myth that there's this totally "standard" input method that everyone uses or should use.
The funny thing about all of this, months later, is that the CrossUp is sort of lame to be honest. It's a neat little idea for a device, but it's incredibly unwieldly. It's really nothing compared to how easy the Hitbox is to use. And like Sajam says, the Hitbox is SUCH a better device.
yeah i had to look it up while watching this video and like.... arcade buttons for movement inputs is really good which is why the hitbox is really good, but jesus doing both with the same hand seems annoying. though I eagerly await the EVO where someone wins GF using one hand while taking sips of Monster with their other hand.
It's hard to find a youtuber or anybody visible that's willing to say that maybe, if the default controller setup is considered cheating, then the FGC is up its own ass and has utterly failed to hold developers accountable for programming a functioning game. If the dualshock breaks the game, then developers would rather require players to purchase handicap controllers than take a look at their input system. The accountability here is horrifically misdirected.
If you're not playing on a Pokeball Plus then you're at a disadvantage anyways
Whew, okay, a lot to unpack here.
I'll start by saying I'm generally biased in that I watch you a lot and agree with you. I don't with this issue though.
I've heard a lot of people talking about how pad is equivalent to hitbox/crossup. That's really hard for me to swallow. To compare to hitbox, a POV hat on a dpad is absolutely not the same thing as having four buttons for four directions. You can't hold left on a dpad and hit right to get a right input, you have to move your thumb from left to right. It's entirely different. People have argued that you can hold left on the dpad and press right on the analog stick for some games, and while that's likely true, nobody's going to convince me that it's just as fast to move down and hit a direction on an analog stick WHILE HOLDING a direction on a dpad and still be able to hit buttons at the same time without some hard proof.
As for hitbox/crossup themselves, I agree that they're probably comparable, and it does seem weird to me that people would want to ban one over the other. I've never used a crossup so my opinion here isn't very strong, and I'm basing this entirely on me doing tests on my stick by mapping a button to a direction, but it feels stronger than stick and weaker than hitbox without having practiced it a lot.
When people are talking about doing things that the devs didn't intend, they aren't talking about software quirks like plinking/slinking, or how combos were glitches at first, or whatever. They're talking about hardware limitations, how games are designed with the limitations of the control method in mind. There's a balance aspect to the motions required for certain moves. It takes more time to do a dragon punch motion than to press HP when people jump, and the reward is balanced around this increase in execution time and difficulty (usually, obviously things like Rising Thunder were designed with 1-button dragon punch in mind but balanced it with its own thing, i.e; cooldowns). The argument for why crossup/hitbox should be banned is that it's always going to be faster to press a button than it is to throw a lever, so people can mechanically do things faster than the devs had in mind when they were designing these things. Slow overheads are a lot easier to react to, hops (I'm a KoF player) can be dp'd instead of just jabbed on defense more consistently, that kind of thing. Also, worth noting in regards to your comment about people should just learn things instead of talking about banning them, that holds true for software quirks but it's a bit more difficult to say that when you're talking about asking people to spend hundreds of dollars. A minor point, but a point nonetheless.
Now whether you think that's an issue that should be dealt with using bans is up to you. I'm on the fence about it with the crossup, but I think the hitbox ship has long since sailed even if the reasoning is the same. The weird whataboutism with pads in this issue isn't arguing in good faith the vast majority of the time, and people saying that these tools DON'T provide advantages either haven't thought it through or also aren't arguing in good faith. It really comes down to where we want to draw the line with regards to balancing games around execution in my opinion.
Sorry for the long reply, but I wanted to be thorough. Good video though, I really appreciate you shining some light on all of these discussion topics lately.
"yalking about how pad is equivalent to hitbox/crossup. That's really hard for me to swallow. To compare to hitbox, a POV hat on a dpad is absolutely not the same thing as having four buttons for four directions. You can't hold left on a dpad and hit right to get a right input, you have to move your thumb from left to right." You sir are COMPLETLY WRONG it is possible by remapping as sonic fox showed and i myself can show
streamable.com/a519g and twitter.com/SonicFox5000/status/1180073874169434113?s=19 You can re map pad inputs to be just like a cross up or a hitbox
@@trinilawman9744 Remapping what, exactly? I'm not familiar with this.
@@trinilawman9744 regardless, remapping should not be allowed on pad
@@trinilawman9744 Okay, but that seems like a different issue, and one that could easily be solved as "don't allow binding multiple buttons for the same input" were people so inclined. It's still an argument about software rather than hardware.
Which, coincidentally, would mean crossup is useless.
I watched this with no indication of what the cross up was and from the video, I assumed it was a macro until right at the end where you said it's not like it's a macro. Checked what was causing the issue and it's just an extra d-pad? Damn, some people really don't like new things.
Everyone should be playing on a steering wheel anyways smh
is probably possible to mod the wheel to have digital triggers so you only need a light tap to either side to get the input. With that you could do SOCD korean backdashes and wavedashes just like hitboxes
Pedro SAD look up Initial T
@@suspecthalo already know about him, but he didn't use the wheel itself only the rest of the buttons which is just a reagular pad, because it took alot of turning until it actually sent inputs.
Hey, Initial T bet Dogura with it.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Initial T enters the chat*
It was actually around 22 electrics in a row but yeah, this whole situation is a bit weird. I also noticed that most of the arguments made against the CrossUp are really just about the Hitbox instead, but those same people will say right after that the Hitbox is fine but the CrossUp is too far. People should at least remain consistent.
There is a big difference between 5 and 22, right
Im against cross up only because two set of direction inputs are most likely not intend to be used at once by the devs. But at the same time i think its up to the devs to remove this from being possible by making people pick one directional input method. Daigos gafro box got banned due to that but they also need to look at pad in sf not sure if the 2 inputs on pad make a difference in tekken
I honestly don't get it, the difficulty in doing electrics is the simultaneous Input of df and 2, not the motion or the crouch dash itself so in what way does the CrossUp make TIMING for two button presses easier with its features?
This sounds more like a ploy to influence peoples' opinion about the device.
@@yomanwtfisthisshit the placement of the directional buttons with 2 makes it easier
The number of electrics in a row is irrelevant; the point is that the Hitbox can do the exact same thing with literally just as much ease as the Cross|Up. It's one thing to be opposed to both, but liking one and not the other is hella weird.
Sajam is out here fighting the holy war of fighting game knowledge and technology. If there any higher power out there, please help this man, help these people.... they don't get it.
Lets go back to the Mega Drive Controlers, where u had to Hit Start, to switch from Punch to Kicks in SFII cause controller only had 3 buttons(A,B,C).
I was so happy when the six button controller came out
That was the only version that I owned. Playing on Super Nintendo was life changing lol. I had two Genesis controllers my mom wasn’t springing for another I didn’t even know a 6 button existed until the Saturn came out
Ban literally everything that has more than the basic buttons. Only Divekick 2 button controller should be allowed.
So basicicly ban pad, wich has literally the double of the four basic direction inputs but no built in SODC at all. But we all know that capcom and TOs can't afford (also in the financial meaning of the word) to ban the most used, by far, input peripheral in tourneys.
Old men don't want those zoomers to have an easier time to get to higher play
Just advocate to allow fully programmable sticks, are you afraid of them?
Nah man. I'm an old man and I think it's stupid that there are people who are against progress in input devices.
Fuc honor. The future is now old man!
my only issue with the cross up is having directional inputs on both hands. people want to act like thats the same thing as any other controller that allows for multi-direction but being able to use both hands fundamentally changes how you can input things. the cross up is also gated behind a $199 price tag, so this isn't something your average player will want to or possibly even be able to invest in. I don't think the cross up is ridiculously cheap or anything like that, but I do think allowing a controller that fundamentally changes how you can play the game that also isn't readily available to everyone is not something you should do. honestly though, this isn't as big a deal as people are making it out to be.
fightsticks are cheap?
Are people really not mentioning the multiple options for movement inputs? That's the whole point.
drilling 4 holes and wiring 4 cables won't cost 200$ tho
Its a pretty big deal imo, I was curious about this, so I mapped additional directional (forward and back) buttons on my keyboard right next to my 2 key, as someone who can electric with about 50-60% consistency on pad and keyboard without extra binds, doing this made it go up to 99%, I never missed an electric unless I wasn't paying attention. I did remove the binds cuz I think its not fair to the people who have been developing their electric for years , but a small part of me still wants to use it, cuz why not? I'm literally handicapping myself by not doing it. I think the devs should not be allowing multiple inputs for a single direction.
@@Silvers_7 Better ban pads then since you can use the d-pad + analog stick to allow multiple inputs for a single direction. There are several top pad players who have been doing this for years.
Developer should be the one that solve this issue, by enable only one kind of directional input at a time (analog or digital) and you can choose that before match.
Just to add to this, also state stuff. Like in SFV you can jump from crouch with a hitbox and avoid standing state (saves 8 frames). Developers just have to make sure there's no gameplay advantage just execution advantage.
funny enough Tekken 7 has the option (in the button config) to use d-pad-only or d-pad+analog but not analog-only
I like this and it's an easy solution. Straight to the heart of the issue too.
The big substantive thing that people have to say about crossup and pad that isn't just "oh no new controller" uninformed flailing is the fact that both a stick and directional buttons (or dpad) allows multiple inputs in ways that aren't possible on stick and afaik are prevented internally on a hitbox.
But if multiple conflicting directional inputs at once can be game-breaking, that's not on the controller, it's on the developers of that game's input-handling system, straight up. There are already fighting games in which it isn't an issue, because the software forces you to pick a direction, so the ones where it is still a problem need to catch up.
I'd really like you to go more in depth on this. I don't see how you can make your game to limit the player's inputs while also having the INSANE amount and complexity provided in Tekken. In the jumbled mess of sidesteps into electrics that area can get muddied quick.
@@balleet210 It's pretty simple on the input processing side. Many games are designed, unconsciously, around the idea that different directional inputs on the same frame are not possible. The games themselves don't impose this limit--they are relying on the actual hardware of controllers to enforce it. Most D-pads have one piece (yes even playstation pads) that precludes, say, Left+Right to be input at the same time. Same thing with a stick--it can only ever be at once position at one time.
What Sajam and Moonwalk are saying is that it's a bit silly for game developers, especially 10 years after the release of the hitbox, to not take this possibility into account. Simply put, if those types of inputs break your game, it's a simple QA/Testing problem for the developers to solve, and not something that should be levied against the players. We can't close pandora's box and pretend these devices don't exist--games need to be aware of their use and write software accordingly.
The only case I can see being made are for legacy games released before this was ever an issue, that aren't ever going to get a patch about it. If hitboxes break those games, either the community lives with their new metagame for better or worse, or they litigate controller usage. But litigating controller usage in a community that prizes customizable peripherals is a bit of a quagmire
Execution Boars make up bullshit about hitbox, etc then go buy a tighter spring to snap back to neutral easier🤣
Lol, paying over $100 for the Golden Lever, and cry about HitBox/Cross|Up.
Funny thing is I think most high level players don't even care about this discussion, and they're the ones who'd be affected by it the most
Of course. If the hitbox gave you THAT much of an advantage, Top 8 in every tourney would be nothing but hitbox players. Since that is obviously not the case, high level players know they have nothing to worry about.
they dont care about this becsuse they arent deluded
Funny thing is the god of tekken knee actually called it broken so your comment is stupid.
Edit: also fuck the majority of the playerbase cause theyre not affected the most, right?
yes a good player can be deluded about banning certain peripheral choices. Valle wasnt right either
@@matrix3509 the reason every top 8 isnt hitbox is because learning an entirely new controller takes a fuck of alot of time and if they wanted to play at the arcade or a local they would have to use a regular stick anyway so its not worth learning an entirely new controller except for a special few.
If ive been playing tekken for 15 years at the top level im not gonna switch controllers to something completely forgein.
I do think we will have more high level crossup players than hitbox players due to being able to play a crossup like a normal stick and just add the extra inputs as you learn more and get better with the crossup.
Its been out for less than 2 weeks (if its even out yet) so saying "well top 8 players arent using it so its fine" is dumb for now.
The advantage of the CrossUp vs. the Hitbox is the DS4 dual-input advantage: e.g. left on dpad + right on analog to evade SOCD. On a DS4, you have to learn a weird, difficult grip to do that, but on the CrossUp it's MUCH easier.
You can do that on a Hitbox with a very simple mod. On the earlier ones it's on by default.
@@trajtemberg No, it's not. You're talking about pushing dpad left+ dpad right at the same time, which is not the same as dpad left + *analog* right. In order to push dpad left + analog right, you would have to have separate analog and dpad inputs, which has never been the case on a Hitbox.
I think this whole controller controversy is a bit silly. 1. Who cares if it makes executions easier, it doesnt get you top 8 easily. It maybe helps you focus on other important fundamentals, ie footsie, mixups, mental games. 2. It seems like this controversy sounds more gate keeping towards people who prefer different controllers how to play the game. It's not like hitbox or cross up have "I win" or turbo button. I'm pretty sure controller developers wouldn't implement them.
Kinda counterintuitive how ppl in the fgc are some of the least willing to step out of their comfort zone
It's ironic how abusing unintended mechanics has always been considered a legit way to play and win and newcomers had to just learn and adapt but using controllers to improve execution consistency is a big no-no and that shit should be banned.
I feel it all just boils down to a clash of fg player generations here. The traditionalists don't want anything to change because that's how they had fun and grew the genre. The problem is that it can't stay like that forever and fighting games have so far been the only genre that's still set in its ways so firmly.
There's a good reason not to change. Fighting games are still a niche genre. You can't just alienate half your fan base for the illusion of progress.
@@recklessnick8955 It will always remain a niche until some changes are made. To grow beyond a niche, the genre has to open up to a broader audience. In order to achieve that, the genre has to become a) more flexible and b) less vague.
Flexibility will come when the prerequisite isn't playing with some expensive controller and instead it's possible to play at a reasonable level with what you have, be it a keyboard or a controller. It's also important to invest in better netcodes and cross-platform play. Now that Sony is on board, there are no more excuses for not doing the latter.
Transparency and usability have never been the strong suit of the fighting game genre. Decades of games doing nothing to represent important information to the player, such as frame advantage. Bugs that are later abused to the point of being accepted as "features" that only certain characters could make use of. Lack of any meaningful single-player experience to ease the player into learning how these games are played.
Don't get me wrong, by the way, I love this genre and I want to see it thrive. Lifting up the gates and planting our feet down declaring it's either the old way or the highway isn't the right way to achieve growth.
@@AkibanaZero The thing is, controllers like these often boast a high price tag and are oriented towards more options and complexity in high level play. These controllers are niche, but if mastered, give a solid edge over the competition, as it allows for easy Korean backdashes and faster input speed than any other controller. This technology based advantage should not be allowed at a competitive level, as they take away from the time and effort people put into games to get onto the top. This somewhat goes for the hitbox and mixbox as well, but those have implications for getting beginners into the game easier as well as having only one set of directional inputs, making them more fair than the CrossUp. As for pad, though an odd control scheme can be assigned to achieve the same thing (which I also feel should be banned), it only allows for one direction to be pressed at a time, and it requires proper sliding of the thumb to be used properly. The Cross-up is both alienating for new players and destructive at a high level of play, making it easily ban worthy.
Speedrunners do this all the time. Like a route gets run a lot and then someone comes up with something crazy they want to ban it. They usually solve the prob by just adding another category eventually.
As a keyboard warrior i know hitbox will be the most accurate device for any fighing game
"this guy did 5 electrics in a row on ____! So OP"
*laughs in keyboard*
*Korean Backdashes in SODC*
22
Keyboards are not allowed in tournaments.
22 electrics
@@mazuiface lol wut? the game is on pc.
Note, for those who dont know : Dualshock 4’s dont have SOCD cleaning, and have digital pads and analog sticks for cardinal directions.
This sorta discussion makes me think of Melee community reaction to anything except Gamecube controllers. Like, tech in the game requires abnormal controllers for consistency and people will still argue that it should be illegal to use anything other than GCCs. It's something that seems beyond absurd to me as a casul viewer of the game: "I need to get notches put into my 1/1000 defective controller to be able to execute all the tech I want, but not we shouldn't allow other/better controller designs because then it's too easy/not as impressive".
I dunno if that view has changed in recent years, but that's essentially the sort of argument I'd see about it when I paid attention to the game. Like, yeah, no one should be allowed to macro multiple inputs to a single button, but having different controllers with different button setups to make tech easier shouldn't be frowned upon; it just makes the game more accessible.
other controllers are fine, but the issue with the box approaches was that you could literally run faster than was possible on controller. It's been adjusted now, and i def don't have issues with it as long as it's in line with what's possible, even if it makes execution easier.
"5 electrics on a crossup" nope it wasn't like that at all it was like 20 electrics in a row and it was the first time for that person to play tekken.
I did the same thing on my Hitbox. What's the point?
@@MFMagnus I doubt that. the point is he has consistent electrics basically with minimal effort also being the first time that he played tekken.
@@d7omi111 Dude, it's braindead easy to get 100% electrics on a hitbox. I too was able to do it my first time playing Tekken. The issue is that it relies on an awkward input that makes it not so amazing outside practice mode, it doesn't make your electric fast (and can in fact slow it down as you have to take time to position your fingers correctly), and it doesn't win you games.
I think he did exactly 22 in a row, again with 0 prior experience.
Shane Vincent I feel like your just saying that to defend your fav RUclipsr
And second of all if you really can do this record it and show us
It wasnt 5 electrics it was 22 in a row without ever having played a Tekken game in his life. IMO anything with 2 (easily accessible) sets of directional inputs should be banned. No one on the planet uses a pad whilst using the stick and dpad at the same time to their advantage.
Actually Knuckle Du uses both the stick and D-Pad when playing guile
He's not the only either I'm sure
You cant say that, Du used dpad and analog on sf4 for guile boom.
And even if anyone used both you cant complain about it bc games are made to work with dpad and analog working at the same time
Correct me if I am wrong, but before the hitbox came out, new players were discouraged from using pad because a stick was considered to be so much better and so much more advantageous than using a pad.
Then, when the hitbox came out, a lot of people wanted it banned because they thought it was so much better and more advantageous than using a stick.
I think I personally feel that as long as a peripheral does not contain macros, it is fair to use. If someone comes up with a new design for a controller that has 3 different up buttons, then part of the strength of that controller is also in the time it takes the player to adjust to a different layout and become comfortable with the controller.
It reminds me a bit of how when using a weapon, you are most effective with it when it becomes an extension of your body, like as a longer arm, or a longer part of your arm.
I guess that it also makes sense since in a fighting game, the controller is your weapon, and some weapons might click for some people, but seem useless to others.
The cross up is literally just the more ergonomic version of the pad.
Always had the problem that my directional inputs are better on a pad but my right hand wants to be positioned like I'm using an arcade stick. Hitbox doesn't bridge that gap for me. Don't think the cross up would really makes that much of difference either.
I'm in the exact same situation. :)
If anything that lowers execution requirements is bad then *plinking* is bad. Ergo if you want hitbox/cross-up/pad banned then you should also want plinking banned to be logically consistent.
true, but it's still pressing an extra button to make execution easier is different from outright using a less effortful method of input. Obviously this doesn't always apply, but it's my two cents on why it's different
This is a straw man. People that have a problem with leverless controllers are not complaining about *anything* that lowers the execution requirements. They are complaining about allowing devices with objective advantages in a competitive setting. In their view, what makes the competition interesting has nothing to do with what kind of device you use, so having advantages over that kind of choice seems wack.
EDIT: btw being able to do electrics on a crossup or a hitbox is a dumb argument, you can do that shit on any device. The actual advantages with leverless controllers have to do with not having to deal with the travel time of a lever, which enables certain techniques to be executed faster (like instead of 6f it only takes 4f, that kind of thing)
Idk why you're pretending like you haven't heard the fgc cry about the hitbox since it's debut in like 2012. People have always bitched about hitbox, and before hitbox people bitched about pad. Not saying it's right or wrong but it's not like everyone was at peace with the peripherals until the crossup magically showed up and THEN made people salty. Just saying
Iv never heard anyone bitch about pad... If someone has something to say about pad then they be BIG PUSS
The difference is this crossup is ridiculous. Look up any cross up demonstration video and they're all filled with dislikes.
@@mumble97 That might be the most npc thing ever said.
@@zzzlucid_dreams7560 Hmm. I think you might be misinterpreting what I said, I admit it was a bit ambigouos. I meant that people are reacting much more harshly to the CrossUp then they are the Hitbox. People, at least nowadays, seem to be much more okay with the HitBox then they are with the CrossUp. I meant if you go to any CrossUp video, you can tell how people feel about it.
@@mumble97 maybe because it has been years and nobody can do anything about it but let it slowly die in obscurity?
What makes the Cross|Up different from the Hitbox or Pad is that you can use both your right and left hand for movement and both a stick and button input as well. In theory, Hitbox is better because it is more intuitive and can make execution just as easy but the Cross|Up circumvents the design of the game's technical mechanics - in this case, how movement is executed. Tekken, Street Fighter and Soulcalibur (I'm not sure about other games) don't allow you to map movement to face buttons and vice versa. They also don't allow you to have multiple inputs for the same movement direction (you can't map two forward buttons). The only exception might be games that allow using both the d-pad and left analog stick for movement but both of these inputs are placed on the left of the controller which makes it very awkward. The Cross|Up allows you to do that when the game doesn't. I'm not talking about rewiring inputs or using special mapping software. TheMainMan has a great video explaining what makes the Cross|Up unique and potentially problematic. If it's legal, then yeah, we as players just need to adapt or game developers need to redesign their games around these controllers. I think there is a good case though for why the Cross|Up maybe too much.
my fear is that devs could take the easy route and just ban the crossup forever and keep arcade sticks limits as a standard, which could mean most fighting games in the future won't be designed around hitbox and will never make full use of its capabilities. The good thing about the CrossUp is that it does raise the limits of the current arcade stick and is on par with hitboxes, which is enough to make future games take advantage of it and progress execution further, but I doubt jp devs will ever notice it unless people adopt it and use it in official tournaments
Bad netcode in almost every fighting game,don't need a hitbox, only lag to win.
It's also about availability/accessibility. Even if Hitbox Crossup or Hitbox in general is shown to be the absolute best periphery, how much will non-US shipping be? (for hitbox it's a lot) And then you have the risk of customs charges etc.
Correct me if I'm wrong but pads were allowed because (amongst other reasons) it was a positive for accessibility. And even if i'm wrong, that's a good enough reason to allow them in my opinion. They're way cheaper than a stick and most people who had a console had one anyway. Hitbox and Crossup are both advantageous and also less accessible than a stick (a lot of the time you can buy regular sticks from vendors within your region and thus not get charged insane shipping) and obviously less accessible than a pad too. So everyone can't just switch because it's better anyway.
I agree though, the same stand should have been taken against the Hitbox all along. Imo they should have been restricted to people who needed them for medical reasons from the get-go (because that is the accessibility positive that hitbox provides). I think this would have been the best set-up in the goal of standardising for integrity whilst maintaining accessibility for as many people as possible.
But it's too late now, and it doesn't make sense to ban the Crossup if the community has accepted the Hitbox. And trying to ban the Hitbox now would cause way too much controversy with the amount of hitbox players, it also wouldn't be fair on all of them who have spent days/months/years learning the periphery because they were told it's allowed.
The only solution now is what Sajam alluded to, the developers have to update the software to not allow certain peripheries to do things that other commonly used ones cannot.
The guy actually did 22 electrics. 22 in a row is a lot, not even most experienced mishima players can do that and that guy was playing for the first time
So what
@@generallytrash This man just said "So what" 😂. Do you even know how insnae doing 22 electrics for your first time playing Tekken is? Its basiclaly impossible with any other device...
@@jupiterapollo4985 Who cares
the problem I think people have with the cross up is that you have your joystick on the left hand while also have directional buttons on the right, this is extremely powerful in most fighting games, you can do it with pad but it's not as easy as doing it on the cross up.
This conversation is literally just Melee all over again... "Wave-cheating" and "fun-cancelling." ROFL
New tech is new tech. Adapt or die, scrubs! So yeah I'm with you Sajam: "What's up? I'm a no-honor having bitch. I'm right here." 🤣
If the input device allows you to do an input in a more comfortable or easy way but its still the same input its not cheating. Its just a better input device. Thats where all those comparisons with macros and 1 button tiger knees fail: those things dont require you to do the same input anymore thus they are cheating.
I can understand that it can be considered unfair or even cheating. I think Daigo talked about this long time ago that with Hitbox he can do an earlier dp in certain situations which leads to oki pressure that would normally not be available.
I think it's way too soon to say if the hitbox is better than the crossup or vice versa. The fact is that the cross up will offer something that we haven't had access to in a mainstream controller yet, which is the ability to reliably and easily combine dpad and analog stick inputs without changing Playstation system settings. This will likely present unique advantages to the crossup, the limits of which we don't yet know (because again, it's not even out yet lol).
The 22 electrics in a row thing is a great example of an area where the crossup is actually advantaged over the hitbox. Doing P2 electrics on hitbox is actually still really hard (for me it's even harder than stick), because you don't have a way of easily using the same hand to input the df and the 2 button, which is what makes the tech easy on P1 side. On the crossup, you have the ability to do this on both P1 and P2 extremely easily.
Again, this isn't to make the case that the crossup is superior, just that I think it's way too soon to be making blanket statements like "the hitbox is better than the crossup" because I think it's pretty likely that people will come up with new ways of taking advantage of the crossup's unique layout.
The guy did like 19 in a row. The pad argument is kinda pointless cause holding your pad like that is awkward inconsistent at best. Lol reverse claw style with your left hand ?
and counting...
Now do it after doing any movement. Kazuyas ewgf is also waaaaaay easier
I think it was 22 actually lol.
the pad argument isnt pointless bro. It may be inconsistent to YOU bro but others are fine with it
@@Chaoskae I have yet to see someone using claw style with their left hand to push the analog and directional button at the same time but tbh you might be onto something 🤔
For me, as someone who has played on every input method, the crossup is a really interesting device. Pad, stick and HitBox all make sense because you grow up on them. Console players grow up using pad, kids that frequent arcades grow up on stick, kids that play PC grow up on keyboard (with HitBox being the FGC keyboard). The CrossUp has no logical path other than itself.
The cool thing about it is its ability to do pad tech, which includes a couple things not even doable on HitBox. That being said, I play HitBox now almost exclusively-- not because of ease of execution, tech, or any other clickbaity claim. I play HitBox because I grew up on PC and played everything with keyboard, including fighting games. For me I think it's a little silly to pick an input method that alien with the only reason being tech.
The more complex imputs of special attacks are intended to make those moves harder to execute, that is the whole point, the developers know that D-pads and Joysticks have 2 restrictions, 1) it is imposible to imput 2 adjacent directions; and 2) because of this, there is a short travel time if you wanna imput an opposite direction after another, unlike keyboards and leaverless controllers.
Knowing this, game developers used it for their advantage and balanced their characters by using complex imputs for special moves, which offer more damage and utility, but at the cost of a little time waste at the execution of the command, this is further reinforced when you see games like Mortal Kombat, where the game designers intentionally eliminated any complex imput, using 1 or 2 directions for each special attack as a mean to expand the characters move list rather than using the commands to balance their game, thats why in MK they use 1 button dedicated to block, so the players can go forward without the travel time of the stick, relying almost entirely on frame data to balance their characters.
And as said before, only D-pads and joysticks have this physical restrictions, which are there by design and then used by fighting game designers to balance their games, on the contrary, keyboards and leaverless controllers do not have this restrictions, giving any player that takes the time to get use to them to unfairly bypass a game mechanic.
I am not against keyboards and leaverless controllers themselves, I am against their use in games like KOF and SF where the physical mechanics of the controllers are a part of the game balance system, however, these controllers are perfectly fine for games like DNF Duel, MK and Injustice, since their balance system relies on frame data and hitboxes, thats why their developers intentionally removed complex imputs.
If people dont have a problem with a new guy hitting 22 electrics in a row, when do I get to use macros for full combos? How about a kazuya macro that does 9 pewgf in a row and reduce enemy's life to 10% at the start of the match?
No, coz macro that way is cheap, its a mapped 1 button combo. Cross up still requires some practice to get used to and do stuff with it consistently just like other controllers.
Yeah, I agree. Why not? *THE FUTURE IS NOW OLD MAN!* Who cares about execution anyway.
Oh, don't forget to spit on pad and stick players who grind PEWGF for years on the way out. Who cares about us? Buncha losers, masochistic old men (I'm 20 tho) wasting time dedicating ourselves to a video game. Pffffft. Get a life. Technology is evolving eitherway, old cucks.
Just buy it, or kick sand pendejo. Amirite?
I love sajam very much but I disagree on this one.
@@invertbrid yes and my macro is going to require me to input ki charge. Its going to be hard at first but since we can lower the barrier of entry of any skillful move then might as well right?
I never thought the crossup was anything special either especially over the hit box
I initially had your opinion, because there is nothing in the cross-up that I am opposed to in principle.
However, after considering fighting games as art, I believe the cross-up specifically should be banned specifically for Tekken tournaments.
- The type of execution that ewgf requires is extreme coordination between the left and right hands.
- There is no software solution that could be done to prevent the cross-up from breaking this requirement. More generally, there is no way of designing a game that requires this type of coordination that would not also be broken by the cross-up.
- There is value in having a game that rewards this type of coordination. The only way to protect this value is by banning the cross-up from the game in question.
Ban paintbrushes, only finger painting meets my execution standards.
@@KittSpiken Ban finger painting competitions, only competitions that allow paintbrushes meet my inclusivity standards.
Its certainly a complex subject. I think most peoples issue is that it allows for you to have two methods of input movement simultaneously (dpad and analog) which allows for some stuff that a lot of people aren't able to currently do (at least easily). It comes across as a pretty strong tactic, and seeing as how current FG developers haven't really made any statements or changed their game to allow or not allow multiple directional methods that it pushes it further into the gray area. As you said the cross-up feels like a middle ground / catch up area for stick players to be in a similar place to hitbox players, so pretty much a new industry standard. I know a lot of guys wouldn't like having to buy a new stick which probably adds to the distaste for it. Hell, I know people who are still using ps3, even ps2 sticks and pads with converters because its cheaper than buying a new stick and they like to stay with what they've been using for years.
My problem with the Cross-Up and to a certain extent the regular Hitbox is that it allows for directional inputs with both hands. That creates certain shortcuts not everyone has access to.
streamable.com/a519g and twitter.com/SonicFox5000/status/1180073874169434113?s=19 You can re map pad inputs to be just like a cross up or a hitbox
The pad allows that too. If you're playing anything below 5 buttons doing this is also trivial.
@@trinilawman9744 pads already have pretty limited real-estate for tekken. giving up two buttons for an extra left/right would be pretty rough imo
@@trinilawman9744 Imagine if everyone started remapping their buttons in tournaments...
@@ChrisLau90 people have been remapping for years, it's not against the rules just something people don't know aboutn
My main and only real hold up with both the Crossup and Hitboxes in general is that on the Dualshock 4 PS4 controller, to my knowledge, you can't hold opposite directions on the D-Pad at the same time. I was told this was because of how the PS4's D-Pad is constructed as opposed to a worn down SNES D-Pad or an Xbox 360 D-Pad, not sure if true. You could hold opposite directions using the D-Pad one direction and the left analog stick in the other, but I think that's a significant jump from what you can do with the Crossup and the Hitbox. I have less of an issue with the Crossup and Hitbox than I do with the Smashbox/B0xx/etc. controllers for smash. Analog to digital is wrong imo.
How does the Crossup not have more in common with something like a Gafrobox than a regular Hitbox? What about a Hitbox that has 2 sets of directional inputs?
I think if pad analog sticks were more accessible for both hands like the Crossup, there'd be less people complaining. Pad analog sticks are generally less accurate. I'd argue this would be more similar to allowing pads to map additional directions on the shoulder buttons.
if those new modular pads like the astro c40 allow you to swap the analogs so the movement analog is on the right side, then you could play tekken claw style with your thumb on the analog. I hope some new style of fight pads comes around with comfortable analog position to use analog + dpad
People like Nuckledu play with analog and Dpad simultaneously in Sf4/V
Which is literally the same as using the Crossup.
The analog sticks are already accessible. People are just holding them how they're meant to be held. But map the normals to the shoulder buttons and see how easy it is to use the analog stick and dpad
We are 1 year away from playing with accordions.
People talk about execution sooo... We gonna talk about removing input shortcuts then....
Chaoskae that’s an actual good way to keep execution difficult. Motions and sequential timings make inputs tough on any controller.
Same frame inputs like electrics are naturally going to be easier on some layouts than others, so if your goal is to make execution difficult they’re not a good way to do that
Imput shortcut aka macro is legal as long provided in game, tekken is good example coz it allows u to map some macros in chara select screen
By input shortcut I think he means motion shortcuts. Like not having to do the full 6323 for dp, not having to 1>9/3>7 for forward and back super jumps, not having to do full 360s, etc
Input shortcuts in some games make more technical option selects and conversions possible that wouldn't be. 3rd strike /kof is about as lenient as it should get. Sf4/5 were garbage.
Makes me wonder why make an input that's gonna be done through a shortcut instead of making that shortcut the official input.
I thought he meant cross up, as in a shield cross up, and I was like “Are we back to SFII banning throws?”
I think the crossup is fine. Mostly. My only issue is for older games what with analog stick plus dpad at the same time, which also applies to pad. Fortunately Hitbox | Crossup lets you rebind so in worst case we can require only left analog or dpad, to force it to go through the SOCD cleaner in the device. Because some old games literally let you block on both sides at once. Ideally this should be handled at the converter level, rather than by banning controllers.
Coming back to this now that I have a Crossup, it's moreso the best parts of stick and hitbox, but I don't think it does anything a pad couldn't. All the buttons on a pad are on a Crossup. Just in more ergonomic and sensible places.
Select Plink sounds kinda like playing a guitar on a different tuning from standard tuning to make certain chords easier to play. Interesting...
sf2 had magic series cause of how the buffer system worked, or look at smash melee's near 20 year history though a lot of those "glitches" were developer intended like samus extender uses leftover debug code, wavedashing/wavelanding are from the physics engine because landing transfers the momentum from the airdodge, I forget exactly how moonwalking works but the input is forward to down-back without going to neutral and you end up with a forward dash that has more acceleration going the opposite direction because reasons. Fun facts about melee: gaw is unfinished because he was just assigned a random shield value and some aerials can't be l-canceled, marth and roy's swords glitch on dreamland when wispy blinks which is one of my favorites, IC's have the freeze glitch, most characters have 3-5 frame jumpsquat but bowser has a whopping 8 frames of jumpsquat which is the second-highest in the series with the highest being Brawl Snake at 9 frames, speaking of Brawl: Meta Knight. Every game has some busted shit, I think melee had a dev time of like 13ish months or something so yeah good times, been around 19 years lol
5:50 I can't tell if that says more about the FGC or other Esports
Why does execution have to be difficult for the game to be good anyway?
Because it’s fun
Because its challenging, overcoming difficult challenges is fun, thus makes you feel good :)
The example of mouse and keyboard for League of Legends is interesting to me because I bought a Razer Naga so I could map a bunch of things to the 12 side buttons it has so I almost never had to take my fingers off of QWER. It definitely made it easier to activate items and use abilities at the same time.
10:16 The duality of FGC, "play what you find fun" and "play top tier you fucking scrub"
Why your wrong is the hitbox doesn't have 2 sets of directional inputs. The cross up does. Also you completely were wrong about the facts of the "guy did 5 electrics" in a row, he did 22 not five. If you gave a hitbox to that same dude, who has never played Tekken before Tekken 7, he would never hit 22 in a row and I bet you couldn't first try either.
exactly also playing grapplers on a hitbox is hard as hell then on a stick with a crossup you get the perfect stick for all character types.
I believe you're objectionably wrong because it has multiple ways to input forward and d/f. literally is easier than hitbox. And developers shouldn't be responsible for something the game was't designed for.
Halcyon Days tekken 7 was “designed” years before the crossup . This is the effect of dumbing down already existing mechanics.
Halcyon Days are you saying, it’s not our problem if the developers don’t care. They should be on top of bullshit like this even when Mr. Wizard allows this at the worlds biggest FGC event.
Halcyon Days I recommend listening to MainmanSwe’s opinion on this and you will understand where I am coming from
@@progamerhennessey9483 hitbox was created 10 years ago, nothing the cross-up does is new. And yes, developers should design their games around what controllers are available and used, and unfortunately arcade sticks (the most limited one) is also one of the most popular ones, so devs are forced to keep execution down to its limits.
If a lot of sticks players adopt the cross-up as a new standard for arcade sticks, then the limits change, devs will be forced to design their next games with those new limits in mind, and that will open more advanced/complex execution for future games simply because the current controllers allow for faster and more precise inputs.
It will break current games like T7 but most japanese devs won't see it unless we break their games right in front of their eyes
@UCiMNQkVqpe7glExAOT9Ezmg I simply care more about a future were fighting games are designed with hitbox levels of performance in mind, so we can finally progress execution further, and arcade sticks being trash and popular is the main thing getting in the way. Whatever devs decide to do with balance is their job. I will finish watching TMM's video, thank you
No they dont. We been telling fps gamers on the console side that gyro aiming is way better. As in faster and more accurate. But they all say "ew motion controls" but I do get what you are talking about.
Its litterally only switch gamers that play splatoon and the few shooters on switch that actually like it. Meanwhile xbox and playstation players are very against it. And the ps4 controller can do gyro aiming too if they wanted it.
Uhh idk if youre right about that
@@kraken7784 it is though. It's not as good as mouse but it certainly is better than simple old analog. Heck there is a youtube video or two up about that specifically.
@@Vulcanfaux yeah i did look at some youtube videos of it. It does seem more intuitive that regular analog
it's another case of people only hate it for one of two reasons
one: it's a new thing that creates an alternative from established tradition (which people historically have hated for irrational reasons)
two: it reduces the barrier to entry which vets (and then subsequently ignore the probabilities of it being a crutch tool that will never outperform players with actual skill and proper game knowledge)
It wasn't 5 electrics in a row. It was 22. In a row. From someone who's never played Tekken before.
thats pretty easy to do on p1 with a hitbox. like extremely easy, the issue is these shortcut inputs put your hands/fingers out of position to play reactively
@@Angel7black exactly, it's one thing to do a bunch electrics on training mode with your hands tottaly out of position, another thing completely doing it in a match after you just kbd to whiff punish something.
Here's what you do. Bind your '2' button under your right directional input, and bind 2+3 under your left directional input. Now you have one finger that can do both your forward input and your '2' input at the same time.
PLEASE tell me how your hands are out of position when you make these changes???
Because f,n,d,df 2+3 isn't a move, you get Wind God Fist instead. Try it.
I mean, I think doing electrics in 2 minutes on a hitbox is equally as easy as crossup
@@SupermanSajam I still think the ability to do both your forward input AND your '2' input with a single finger is very strong.
As I said in a previous reply, binding your '2' under your right input and your '2+3' under your left input makes this a lot easier than trying to sync both your hands and do it that way, or making the adjustment with your right hand and moving it over, though you can only do that with the 'right' direction (or P1 side).
I don't see how that advantage can be seen as equal to a hitbox, both P1 and P2 side.
What I said above eliminates that barrier.
My biggest flaw was being adamant about using fightpads (the big D pads), which both limited my options and honestly I wasn't that good. When I learned analogue, it made it so I could use any controller and I have gotten so much better. And having all the pad bumpers made it even better.
Ha, nice try Sajam
I believe tournaments should only be played on regulation tournament arcade cabinets.
Nah whatever the player is comfortable with....
@@Chaoskae You sure are right I prefer fighting games on the type writer
They should ban LCD screen as well. Use CRT for 0 input lag. And everyone should bring their own coins.
Nah arcade scene is dying outside japan. Less and less ppl will play it in the future. Most ppl who use arcade stick is the one who grew up with it......which most likely 90s or early 2000 era players.
actually, in the Apex Legends scene, there's a big controversy about allowing people on cotrollers play in tournaments with people on m&k because of aim assist being alleedly too busted.
Some pros tried switching to controller but didn't stick to it (pun not intended) and in ranked games you still hear people complain about "getting controllered" with the same tone of voice they'd use if they got killed by an actual cheater.
I actually wish everyone did switch to controller. if it'sthat good, so that the whole debate can die off.
but there are some things you can't do as well on controller, or at all, that are movement based, so lifetime m&k players value those options more than lasering people with the help of aim assist.
...so the D-pad can press both opposed directionals at the same time as the Hitbox? Can the D-pad circunvent Tekken's Up+Down=Neutral by changing the final input into Up? How the fuck can someone replicate that on a D-pad or arcade stick?
Everybody saying "Fighting games is all about he execution" is exercising the "No true scotsman fallacy."
"That's easy? no true fighting game should allow things tobe easy/easier. It's all about the purity of execution."
It's funny how much cognitive dissonance is exercised in the FGC. Here's one take:
"That character is cheap af." most people pick the cheap shit. I lived this in Marvel 3 and still do to this day.
The same people:
"This controller is cheap af. BAN THAT SHIT, I AIN'T DEALIN GWITH THAT!"...boy...too funny. I just body them on HitBox and heal myself with their tears of sodium.
Btw, I am a fan of yours now Sajam. Great content dude!
Nothing you said is coherent. You have no point nor any idea what you are talking about. This video and comment section are a joke.
Your ignorance is astounding.
@@balleet210 right, because your best argument is calling someone else's incoherent. Go ahead and prove me wrong. I'll wait.
First off, it's not a no true scotsman because the issue isn't an arbitrary classification of a "true" fighting game, that's a strawman. The argument is that the game is fundamentally unbalanced and not working as intended when execution, which it's used as balance, is removed. -- it's that simple. You're way off the mark.
People at my locals gave me shit because I rewired my stick to select plink with E.Ryu lol. It wasn't very common over here, and I have no idea why.
The thing about the Cross|Up is that it has an over abundance of input options compared to a hitbox/stick, that alone is what sets it apart from a hitbox when we are talking about whats ban worthy, even if the hitbox's buttons are better placed the crossup allows use of both directional buttons and the the joystick simultaneously allowing macro-esque input options to be a thing without using an actual macro, doesnt the Capcom Pro Tour not allow over abundance of inputs on any controller peripherals because of that?
If a player uses SOCD set to last input then the game developer can do nothing to prevent that. I think any modification of the players input should be not allowed (that means no SOCD or other input altering chips at all). When the game can not handle something properly then the input device is not valid. Just my 2 cent.
I honestly don't see how anyone thinks hitbox is better than the crossup when it comes to execution, then again, I haven't used the hitbox nor the crossup but it's still just bizarre to me
I'd love to have the excess funds to complain about cross up vs hitbox. I'd be down for either one.
Nein. Two sets of directional inputs competely bypass execution limitations in a way neither pad not hitbox do. Ban analog+pad being used simultaneously, or remapping of directional commands to shoulder buttons, but the hitbox and pad sit fine whereas the crossup very much dismantles execution barriers in games built around them.
What execution barriers specifically does it bypass? I've used a hitbox for about 3 years now and I can't think of a single thing that the crossup can do that a hitbox can't.
@@cameronbarker7461 You can input a direction with a button as soon as the stick returns to neutral. No amount of spring tension or rubber grommets is going to be faster than that. I think a regular Hitbox is fine, but watching Dragunov's iWR2 come out with the speed and consistency of f,f+2 means that more complex inputs will just be outright faster.
Yeah this is reactionary nonsense. What execution barriers does bypass exactly? And just because you want to use ages old arcade technology that wasn't designed for competitive play doesn't mean everyone should have to. If you want to keep playing Starcraft on the N64 controller then you can do that, but I'm gonna use a m/kb.
streamable.com/a519g and twitter.com/SonicFox5000/status/1180073874169434113?s=19 You can re map pad inputs to be just like a cross up or a hitbox
no real barrier. just a lot of people who would have to face the reality that execution isnt the reason theyre mediocre or execution is the only thing carrying them from not being totally ass, this stick would have zero effect on top, high or even most upper mid level players. at best you have some green rank in tekken ranked spamming electrics in one spot aimlessly and without purpose being to get high crushed to death
In Japan, all of these cheatboxes are simply called "Leverless Controls" because you aren't actuating a lever to access the switches for your directional movement. Conventional joysticks also require two hands to perform a direction and attack. That is what generates the difficulty in execution. Timing a switch you control with a lever on one hand, with a switch you activate with a momentary button on the other.
The Cheatboxes bypass both requirements by allowing both directional and attacks to use the same input method, and also have them in such close proximity that they both can be actuated with a single hand. Simultaneous input is nearly guaranteed with no practice which is the only possible way you're hitting 22 electrics in a row as a newbie. On PC, I can try to do electrics with Kazuya on my pad for an hour and still only hit it a few times. On the keyboard, I literally hit 3 buttons with 3 fingers and I get it every time.
I don't think that a pad is cheating on this level for this reason. Nearly all DPads are, in fact, tiny joysticks which pivot off of a lever to actuate their rubber dome switches. They also generally cannot be actuated with one hand and if you can, they certainly actuate differently from the rubber dome face buttons. That inherently creates a difference in their timing, same as Joystick.
I agree it's on the developers to ensure that inputs aren't abused. I'm mainly talking about allowing for multiple directional input methods (Pad and Stick for dual shock) or in the case of Crossup, (Stick and D pad simulated buttons), but it's clear as day that the cheatboxes are superior input devices to joysticks on every metric. It's like bringing an electric bike to the tour de France. Sure you're going to be better than the entire competition, but is it really that impressive? Might as well start macroing if you eliminate the challenge altogether.
try to see pro play the cross up especially jdcr..... crouch cancel perfect electric should not be possible but someone can do it apparently due to cross up
another thing to add is the side step problem... all tekken games we couldn't side step towards the camera when we are in the force crouch position.... but with the cross up we can
those are the advantages of the cross up
You seem like the type of guy that hates electronic music because it's "to easy". Without ever taking a step back to realize it's about what you know and not what you can do. Sure doing something like a technically demanding solo might feel cool but nobody really cares about how the meat was made. What matters is what you know about the subject.
Should any advancements be stopped because people take pride in the fact that they didn't have that 20 years ago?
This is late but actually, in Tekken 7 Kazuya can electric from crouch without crouch cancelling. He can perform any of his crouch dash moves from crouch.
The cross up does not allow you to sidestep into the foreground when you are forced crouch, that is literally impossible no matter the device.
What you said about FPS and moba players not caring about input devices isn't quite true; hipshot dots have been the subject of a discussion similar to what we are having now.
Half the things he says in this video aren't true, Sajam makes some good points most times but he's talking out of his ass here.
thats not really the same thing, even though it is sorta the same discussion. The correct analogy would be if a new mouse came out and people were alledging that it gave people better accuracy because of a better sensor or some shit.
now fps players are having a flame war over controllers since they get aim assist
A hitbox won't stop you from dropping combos or increase your wits or timing. I played GG Xrd Rev2 in Daytona against a hitboxer and didn't lose 1 match in a FT10. I use ps4 control stick.
Now imagine coming to the game, hoping to learn fundamentals only to learn you can skip em if you pay for a certain controller.
Like it or not something will be lost because of the cross up.
And that FT10 victory, congrats, but how long do you think people will give a damn about your skills, you will just fall by the wayside cause unlike cross up players you still need to think of execution unless you fork over some dough too :p
@@zwartesoep2010 I do not think there is a controller available that will let you skip les fundies. Lets play the imagine a guy in a sports bar who says he has the most amazing punch in the world but also lets it slip during conversation that he has never been in a fight and has poor depth perception. Would you even consider his killer punch a threat if he is gonna only be able to hit the air? The potential to do what you need to do is possible with any device. One's comfort with that device, whatever it may be, will be the determinant factor as to their ability to perform well.
Keyboard players cheating since launch
Tbh stick just feels more comfortable. Hitbox feels uncomfortable to me, its a great device though.
I just use stick cause its part of the fun of fighting games to me. Even if it puts me at a disadvantage in the future I will continue to use stick.
Gaming is interesting in this regard, because most sports REQUIRE you to use regulation gear.
For example: basketball, football, soccer and so on require a regulation ball. It can't be heavier, lighter, a different size, etc.
But for eSports there is a mentality of "players can use what feels natural to them" even if that controller gives them a unique advantage...kinda crazy
I think that analogy doesn’t hold up. There are things that are highly regulated in sports and things that aren’t highly regulated. Just like with esports. In sports, the size of the field and the ball you play with and the rules of the game are strictly regulated. However, you’re likely allowed to wear whatever uniform you like generally, the shoes you wear can be whatever brand you want within reason, you can wear all kinds of different accessories within reason. With esports, you all play the same version of the game, on the same console, with the same in-game rules. I think the difference between choosing what kind of cleats you wear and what kind of controller you use is much more comparable than the dimensions of the field or ball you use being changed. Changing controllers doesn’t inherently change what is possible to perform in the game in the same way that changing your cleats doesn’t change how you perform in any significant way. If you changed a soccer ball to look more like a football then that would change what’s possible to do in the game immediately.
its just the extra buttons I think so you can get cheatbox electrics on both sides, hitbox would be op with extra directional buttons. Thats why gafrobox was banned too. Im a hitbox player and I dont mind crossup, but the extra directional buttons near the normal buttons could help a lot.
Here's what you do. Bind your '2' button under your right directional input, and bind 2+3 under your left directional input. Now you have one finger that can do both your forward input and your '2' input at the same time.
Because f,n,d,df 2+3 isn't a move, you get a Wind God Fist instead.
Your hand isn't out of place at all. There is no strain. I'm sure stuff like this is applicable to other characters as well. You can sorta do stuff like this on a HitBox if you use your right hand to hit some of the inputs, but a crossup makes that shit incredibly easy.
This might be a PC thing only, but you can't map specific directional inputs to perform face button inputs on console. At the very least, this applies to Tekken and SC.
@@XIVDock what? I'm talking about binding the '2' and the '2+3' on the button under the directional input. It's only 1 finger because you're using your whole finger to do it
@@XIVDock oepn character select screen and just map it there?
I'm confused by what 1 frame links are and the only thing I can think it's that there must be no buffet system or something. Can someone please explain what that is?
As I understand it, that's basically it. There is only a single frame for you to hit the button and have it combo. A frame sooner and the attack won't come out. A frame later and it's blockable. Plinking gives you a second chance to hit that single frame.
Backdash canceling in Tekken is precisely the best example: the Tekken team hated the exploit during TTT and it resulted in Tekken 4, the weakest entry in the series, which removed the exploit at range 2. Nobody liked that game yet it was the most pure "developer designed" Tekken entry in the whole series. KBC is currently in the game (however, **serverely nerfed**) because the player base had no respect for "developer designed balancing", but here we are, with people complaining about Hitbox years after their release.
Banning Hitboxes will also result in the prohibition of keyboard controls. How nobody is talking about this baffles me: the FGC is spitting in the face of a vast set of players who grew up playing on keyboards and will not be able to simply transition into a pad or a stick.
Hitbox is the best controller method for **most inputs**, not all, however it comes with an execution requirement far higher than stick and controller. I have yet to see a high profile competitor who switched to hitbox and remained successful.
I won't go into the discussion of the Cross Up, as I agree that fighting games should limit directional inputs to one source as a protection method against strong hypothetical OSs. However, this is a developer-side issue and not a community problem. If fighting games (like Tekken 7) still allow players to set both the stick and the D-pad as directional inputs there cannot be an argument against controllers designed to take advantage of this software-level oversight.
Controller bans open a wider discussion on what "developer intentions", "competitive integrity" and "open format" entails within the FGC. Can we truly ascertain that contemporary fighting games are design with arcade sticks in mind? Is SFV truly design for arcades even though I came out on console years in advance? Can we truly call Tekken 7's Claudio a "stick character"? Can the arcade stick be hailed as the controller of choice for fighting games in a world in which any decent world tour uses PS4 as the console of choice? Shouldn't we just ban any controller that isn't a Dualshock 4 for consistency with World Tour setups? Can we talk about the inclusivity of our community when console controllers and keyboards are in danger of being banned from competition and new players are **actually forced** into buying hulking, 250€ boxes only worth using in a handful of games?
The hitbox is not the same as the cross up. The key difference here is that you have 2 sets of movement inputs. And the clip you were talking about with the ewgf, the guy did 22 ewgfs not 5.
Edit: this rambling had like no point to prove ur just going on and on about banning the hitbox and the crossup. Talk about things like how easy it is to pick up a crossup and do electrics for a new player, and sidestepping right on p1 from crouch which is impossible to do on a hitbox.
Ban malfunctioning gamecube controllers, ban hitbox, ban thumbs, everyone plays with their feet now
5:45 a better analogy than LoL for this would be World of Warcraft PVP and how people realized that having a bunch of buttons on the side of your mouse that your thumb can press real quick was super helpful.
Whats funny about your example is fps game devs think ultrawide aspect ratios are cheating and disable them.
I agree 100% with this another thing to concider is accuation distance of a button.. On the razer raion fight pad the shoulder buttons click like mouse clicks and allows for pressing buttons at exactly the same time as opposed to having to verry slightly plink your imputs do to the dpad or arcade stick having different accuation distances then the attack buttons... I can do EWGF everytime using L1 as 2 rather then triangle simply because of button accuation distance