Love your work, helps digest the good Sajam parts on the go. Maybe this is asking too much, but maybe you can convince Sajam to put chat in the bottom left corner instead of that Sajam wins image? Having chat context does help when it comes to RUclips consumption. I say that since there's so many clips and times that often he's strictly talking to the chat where it makes sense to have the chat visible, as opposed to him playing something or watching something.
Another point nobody brings up is if fighting games had amazing netcode you'd get a flood of hella good new competitive players from regions where there aren't scenes for the game. I love Tekken but I have no one to play. Going online for me is impossible so I haven't played it in a year or so.
Bingo. More people will come out of the woodworks when you open up the space for them to practice and compete. Quite a few people can't play because... they just can't with their life situations. Netcode that's great would help expose many potentially amazing players to people they can practice against in an almost realistic/competitive setting and get the confidence and skills they need to go out and possibly compete.
IMO not really the case. Pakistan has been the Tekken power house on the come up this year and their players ONLY play offline because the internet in their region sucks. So they focus all their energies in their offline arcade/communities. Meanwhile you have these more lesser known FGs with amazing netcode and their player bases are still far and few and concentrated in specific areas of the world (mostly NA). Even in fightcade where I'm from NA and I can match someone in Brazil with the help of GGPO, I wouldn't do it consistently because of a laggy connection. If your region has a small scene, it is going to be small regardless until someone can help bring awareness and interest for the game that a community is built for it. It doesn't help either if your regions' internet infrastructure isn't on par with Japan/Korea.
@@t4d0W I'm not saying it's impossible. But it's a great help to people who just are completely incapable of making their (closest) local scene if they even have one. I think the Pakistan emergence is awesome. Knee recently played a Pakistani player (I can't recall his name) that mains Akuma. He had to borrow someone's stick because the scene there just plays on cabinets, which is so cool.
@@t4d0W I know locals and offline will always be the best option for those who want to get good but there have been proven cases of "online warriors" becoming good tournament players .. The emergence of great scenes in previously unknown regions relies very heavily on accessibility issues. These can range from having tournaments in different regions like the TWT (Peru and Pakistan most recently) or epass which helps players with visas. Netcode is another huge part of that accessibility thing.
@H A W This is my situation. Its been years, so maybe I have to look again, but I currently have no scene where I live, and theres not much interest. So consistent local competition just doesnt exist where Im at. ( Cincinnati is 40 minutes away for reference) Yes, I can play SF5 and Smash online, but its such a diffrent, less fun game than it is local. But 3rd strike OE and Skullgirls? Fucking seemless 80% of the time, even with my connection being spastic as it can be sometimes.
Maximilian has a video on this and has discussed this on stream in depth. The developers just don't want to work on netcode when it works perfectly in their own country.
@@vironamas123 "when it works perfecly in their own country" twitter.com/john_takeuchi/status/1162562266027327488 yeah man, glorious nippon netcode folded a thousand times
Yeah people say that is the best FG ever... Like what the fuck Maybe from a competetive standpoint it is, but from the consumer standpoint that pays $60 it is just pathetic. No tutorial Boring layout Shitty online No single player content that is worth a damn But hey at least they got the gameplay right so who cares about the rest?!
Yeah. I love Tekken 7. Tekken is my favorite series. But I typically play other games if I'm playing online because it takes so long to get into matches and you're locked into one character whenever you go online.
@AgentFlea You actually can blame McDonalds though, because everything from the marketing, the brand colors, and the way they design their food is made to psychologically entice people to come back and you don't stay as full off their food that long so you spend more money more often.
@@thesamuraiman i mean i can agree that they are heavily marketed to keep people coming back. But if you cant stop when you see yourself getting unhealthy, then the company shouldn't be blamed
@AgentFlea this comments old as hell but still very stupid, manipulation is DESIGNED to work on people who think they are "too smart" to be manipulated. YOU are the mark
Leon O'Grian Tekken,Guilty Gear, SF, Dragon Ball, SC6, and many more don't have good net code. The question did you watch the video he clearly states the games with good Netcode and the only modern one was MK11. Before that Skullgirls and KI two old ass games. Pay attention
It's weird how Punch Planet, an indie game, has instant rematch and ggpo that lets me play people across the country, spectator features, and an the most detailed training mode, but you can't even get frame data or decent netcode in Tekken.
@@dudeonthasopha Well. I'm talking from experience. As are you. Your experience seems to have been quite poor compared to mine. Maybe the issue lies with you, is all. Sajam made great points, you don't _have to_ mindlessly sheep his words. Especially when it applies to nothing I said.
This resonates with me so hard. I love fighting games for the raw gameplay, but as overall games a lot of them honestly suck. People really need to hold games in this genre to a higher standard already.
Funny enough, they actually got it right in Tag 2 and that free-to-play game Revolution. Text gets shown, immediately transitions into versus screen, immediately transtiions into skippable character intros, FIGHT.
Thems Fightin Herds and Skullgirls were designed with GGPO in mind, a key reason it works so well. KI runs at a higher frame rate internally than what’s displayed, so it’s able to make error corrections that are far less noticeable. Modern fighters need to be designed with a ready made netcode in mind AND run at a higher frame rate internally like KI does. Best of both worlds. Skullgirls still has the best Training Mode by far. Why everyone isn’t copy pasting it is beyond me.
I could not agree more. I’m new to the fgc and I’m constantly surprised with how many simple quality of life things aren’t in most of the games. I also think there is a stigma around around “staling” ideas from other games. Like how after Apex legends came out and fortnight added a respawn mechanic. If it’s a good idea and everyone likes it the why wouldn’t I want my other games to have it? Please “steal” all the quality of life things from all the successful games. Leave the originality to your character/story design.
Fighting games and other games are fundamentally different being a 1v1, meaning direct connections are necessary. For instance, asking for good netcode isn't a small ask. Most of the huge games have bad, delay based netcode, be a use all games reside on servers. Comparing it to Dota is funny, because the fact is all, MO A players are simply OK WITH 35-150 ping when playing online, while fighting games want to be playing at 0. This combined with the fact that fighting games have the lifespan of like, 6 months before the bulk of players move on to the next game like people treat new patches. The excuse I'm going to make for them is basically this, even when the solution exists, fighting games are so short lived for most people it's not worth it to them.
@@hteety It's hard to stick with a fighting game long term as inevitably you will get tired of playing the same characters all of the time stomping on and getting stomped on online.
Tekken 7 is arguably the most active and hype FG at the moment growing day by day and has awful netcode, bland training mode, bland interface, no proper lobby, no waiting for online matches in practice mode, long loading screens, etc. I can't even imagine how things would've been if those issues had been implemented correctly from the start
I love Tekken 7, but the lack of instant rematch is really dumb. I have to reconnect to my opponent during a Player Match. Why? We are already connected. Just queue up another "round" (match) and reset the round count. Why can't that happen??
5 лет назад+6
@@TheKnattydread have you tried resetting the stage in training mode? Even in Forgotten Realm it's super fast. Why doesn't rematch in player match reset it at that speed?
As someone who just started getting into Tekken from being an '09er, thank you for this conversation. Absolutely love the game but I can't even play with someone in my own city without netcode issues, I'm thankful to have an offline scene but it's not excusable that online play is held together by duct-tape and hope.
Max sent me here. I see you already have 2 more video extensions to this. I am spending an hour and a half listening to everything wrong in my favorite gaming genre. OMFG THANK YOU GUYS FOR SAYING WHAT NEEDED TO BE SAID.
This guy makes good points. We as gamers need to ask for more. Stop buying trash. Show the companies that we're not gonna bend over and take the half-finished games they churn out.
You don't have to speak broadly Sajam. It should be pretty clear by now this is a fundamental problem isolated to Japanese developers. Just about everything western developed comes with some form of competent roll back implementation and robust, accessible online features. Just in general there is a concerted effort for most western games (hell, even Korean developed) to have robust netcode for all games online, not just fighting games.
Thank you for this video man. Seriously, even though I'm just 5 mins I already agree. I've been saying this, especially as a Tekken fan. The gameplay of that game is good but in most other aspects it's hot garbage as a product. I've already told myself that if I don't see a marked improvement in the next generation I'm done with the genre, as much as I love it. The worst part is the people that defend it, it's infuriating. All of this is not even mentioning the lackluster singleplayer content that comes with these "$60" games. Look at the naruto ultimate ninja storm games, why can't we have even half the production put into those games be the standard.
I agree, I mean I know it's all extra but if you are going to put something extra in why bowling? Why not something like that action beat em' up that T5 had? :)
I laughed at the ol' Fgc poverty nonsense. Back in the 90s when arcades were more common in inner city and urban communities, it made a bit more sense to argue ppl stuck to 25 or 50 cent games over buying consoles. When you are playing games on ps4, with triple digit cost fightsticks, and in some cases traveling cross country, you arent a poverty community. This is the same community that made the special edition Victrix fightsticks sell out almost immediately at EVO despite being overpriced like crazy. People in fgc definitely throw their money around when they want to. A battle pass or something is nothing
@@eightykakes15 it was definitely not cheaper to buy a console if you're sitting there on a given saturday afternoon, wanting to play some games. Sure you spend more over the long term period, but many people were much more likely to spend 5 or 10 bucks on some arcade visits than save up for a console and expensive cartridge.
@@misterkeebler ... so you just basically agreed and disagreed with me. Do you know how much money we dumped into arcades in a weekend. And the arcade was PACKED. It's not up for debate... 4-6 kids spending $60-$100 in a weekend over the course of a summer maybe going 3 or 4 times that summer...mathz...we could have purchased a console dude... several... with a game or two.
Wow, American made games have good NetCode? They must have some super secret technology that the Japanese don’t know about to get such little lag. Skullgirls and KI too!? That’s crazy. I just want to play Guilty Gear without 7 frames delay
Played Tekken 7 exclusively for matches with a friend who lived 20 minutes away in the same town as me. Honestly crazy how long we have to wait to "Get ready for the next battle" even though we were 20 matches in.
Feels like it gonna take a community effort (from all fighting games) to make the devs realize why rollback/ GGPO (in the right way) should be the standard
Worst thing in the world to read when some dude says “idk I don’t seem to get laggy matches when I play online” when everyone complains about how bad a games netcode is. Like whyyyyyy???? KI truly was ahead of its time.
I think it makes it worse that KI was not even ahead of it's time. It was an appropriate evolution from GGPO many years earlier. The first version of GGPO was in 2006. It was that many years ago and the core concept had all this time to be improved and evolved since then.
Last night i played a dude in UMvC3 with a lag so bad that the match was like 7 minutes long and the clock had like 37 seconds (marvel time) left. But then i've played others that felt close to offline. It's not just the netcode but people's connection has a lot to do with it too.
This is my new favorite channel. Sajam is my spirit animal. This channel is criminally undersubscribed. Ima start sharing all this as soon as social media isn't actively burning down.
So smash ultimate has: - The worst training mode of any current fighting game - The worst netcode of any current fighting game - Terrible lobbies that lag when a spectator has a bad connection And people still defend it
Bro, SSBU most popular fighting game atm, worst everything. These bums still love it and defend it more than theydefend their own mothers. WWWHHHYYYYYYYY???????
Fanbase too insular. Too much rabid support for a game that's bred from the fact that their scene erupted from nothingness and legitimately close to zero support with Melee and 64. I feel there's another reason a large part of the FGC at large denies the game's status as a fighting game beyond just the gameplay: the community is so insular and, perhaps, disdainful of games in the FGC. A Street Fighter player respects a Tekken player respect a UNIST player respects a Samurai Showdown player respect a DBFZ player respects a BBTAG player. On and on. In fact, there's a decent chance a large amount of people play or at least watch these other games. But Smash players don't branch out. They don't really watch other stuff generally. They don't play other stuff other than like Leffen (props to him for that at least, though he's a bit of an asshole). And that makes interacting with them... tiresome. Let me say that I like to watch it. I enjoy playing it. But a lot of players just seem kinda close minded regarding other stuff and rabidly defend their game as a result of that and its history.
I think the biggest problem is Japan. So many FG's are developed there and Japan has amazing internet so normal delay based netcode is just fine for Japan. As a result it's "good enough" for them and that's enough. Why bother with GGPO when their own solution works just fine for them? American made FG's use GGPO so they work great. Japan simply doesn't NEED GGPO so why bother with it. Mind you I wish they would, but this is my theory on why they don't.
because an international market should dictate that you optimize your game's success by prioritizing things like netcode/lobbies so that every player can enjoy your product, regardless if the internet is amazing in JP or not
Actually I think it has more to do with Japanese pride. It's not that they can't afford to license GGPO, since they tinker with their netcode every game they release and that costs money too...
The funny thing is, well done rollback would still benefit them. They may not explicitly need it but it would help in instances where there is instability in connections between each other, masking that with their low latencies. It would also be a benefit to them to have offline-like play rahter than have 1 to 2 frames of lag (16 to 34ms ping).
It's not even that simple. Delay-based works better than rollback-based if your ping is consistently low, which is the case in Japan, so switching to rollback would negatively impact the Japanese players. Probably the best solution would be to just give the players the option to choose which type they prefer.
It's strange that the main genre of games that prides itself on competing one player against another, and barely implementing online, and just doesn't care, or can't work out how to get online working... (my good friend traded SF5 in really fast because it didn't have a good single player experience, and knew playing online was dreadful.) I lived in Australia for 31 years of my life with high latency on terrible internet, and I always knew that if I bought any fighting game, I would only be playing with a couple of real life friends for a couples days ever. (i think I played SFIV 3 times, and SFV 1 time, despite me practicing in training mode tons to get better, or trying to educate myself online through videos or threads.)
"I can't play with people more than two states away" LMAOOO I live in the center of Texas and super smash bros lags for me with people just one city over, and sometimes even for people closer than that, god I wish smash had good netcode
Great video, glad Max sent me! As a game developer: if you have a system in your game that can play "Round 2" that means that you already have everything you need for a match replay without loading. Everything else is a lie.
so true. Its good to hear such realness. Ppl used to get butthurt when I said I lost interest in kof 13 because it has a loading screen after each round. Not sure if they fixed that in 14 but it kills the momentum of a fighting game.
I'm glad someone with a voice is finally saying something about this. Everything that you said about online is on point. When ggpo came out and did it up on online play I thought every fighting game company would do the same.
It's a boiled frog syndrome. You can see that with Apex's recent blunder, where a worrying amount of people made excuses (not only that, but in a very assertive, aggressive and matter-of-fact kind of way) such as "it's a f2p game", "players are entitled" (my favorite) and such. Things are in general ridiculous these last couple of years, yet people approach it on some either/or basis ("developers have to eat" - so, everything atrocious should be forgiven, "if you don't like it, don't buy it" - so, I can't criticize the product etc).
Large factor I suspect is Japanese culture. I have multiple friends who work for Panasonic in Lake Forest and they are hamstrung by headquarters in Japan. Japanese work culture is too slow, consensus-based, not innovative. They actually went over a massive reorg because things were broken and not working Department wise. So culture is one and then they have Monopoly so people just accept whatever they have so that's the second major factor I can see.
Yeah, hierarchy may influence this decisions too, and you're right that they're trying to improve on that side, mostly because newer generations won't allow it. But also, Japan is pretty proud of their work and I think it has more to do with that, I think they just don't like the idea of giving up and using a non-japanese solution.
Based on what we know about Japanese developer culture it seems like it is more likely that they will implement good rollback net code of their own design rather than implement something developed in a different country. Unfortunately it seems yet more likely than either of those is that they will just continue to have bad netcode like 95% of other fighting games.
@@StrawberriFC Oh whoops, my memory was failing me slightly. It was about BBTAG and not GG, but here it is www.reddit.com/r/Guiltygear/comments/cmpq6b/arksys_and_ggpo_may_2018_interview_about_bbtag/
@@bradb2680 Its a matter of pride that goes beyond nationality really. They wouldnt use a japanese made one if it meant abandoning their in-house developed netcode. You already see this in Bamco refusing to use any other lobby system. SNK is the weird one. They rerelased SS5S with ggpo officially, which means they have the license, but samsho 2019 had garbage netcode
Code mystics, a canadian company that ports old neogeo games for SNK, implemented GGPO. they have been trying to get permission to implement GGPO in their ports for a long time, the first one they were allowed to add it to was KOF97 on steam (it was added in may 2018), then later SS5SP this year. SNK doesn't seem to give a shit though, going by how slapdash the new samurai shodown is when it comes to netplay.
I'm ready for the RIOT announced fighting game to do all of these things right, pump out skins and make the updates into events and hype their consumer base to stick around and spend money. And I'm also ready for the devs who can't implement proper netcode to see RIOT's success, try and copy them, and still fail on a basic level.
You mean the same company that took like 5+ years to implement a sandbox mode, watchable replays, and in-client spectating? The same company that can't balance a game for shit, and has shitty monetization models? The same company that r/LeagueofLegends calls out ALL THE FUCKING TIME for doing dumb shit? Maybe, but only because Seth Killian is on board.
Higgs666 As long as Sony has the biggest console in the room they have no reason to allow it outside of specific exceptions. It definitely hurts the players, though.
@@BHS289 Every console giant gets so anal when it's their turn for dominance. Microsoft said no during their 360 days, and now Sony is doing the same. Even worse is that Sony's reason for doing so is clearly reflected in how they police and curate their platform: they're known to censor stuff, and they cite the ability to "ensure a safe Playstation experience" as a major reason for no cross play. We all know they're also banking on people's friends having one console. They're so stubborn, but the friends having one console factor isn't as big as it was anymore. You want people to buy your console? You've got insanely good exclusives, Sony! They should know this better than anyone. Horizon Zero Dawn, Spider Man, Bloodborne, Persona 5, Uncharted, God of War. I know many people buying a Playstation exclusively for these. These kinds of games get people to buy it.
It's crazy that this is the one thing that players choose to defend developers about, while constantly complaining about the developers not listening because their favorite character won't get buffed.
Luckily they seemed to have finally gotten it right with the new SamSho after a patch, which works so well I hope they could do the same to KOF14 (though they're concentrating on 15). But, Sajam's talk.....really hits home lol.
Yeah I'm never buying another fighting game before scoping out the netcode, input lag, etc. ...Except smash because it's too good and I play offline lol
@@ensanesane Yo, for real, the smash community has to stop letting Nintendo get away with this shit too. SSBU was announced the "Fighting game of the Year" at the Game Awards, it's absolutely inexcusable as to why a company as big as Nintendo can't provide a solid training mode at the VERY least. And don't even get me started on the input lag. Online obviously requires work, but even offline the game functions as a subpar experience as a fighting game.
@@ishtarvaughn3641 the problem with that idea is Nintendo actually doesn't care full stop. They're interested if the most "Japanese" Japanese companies out there. They have never released a game with even a somewhat player online experience and I doubt they ever will
This is excellent. Fighting games are incredible and have become my favorite esports to watch out of everything I consume, but the lack of good online, deep tutorials, and progression systems pulls me back to LoL, WoW, or Magic after just a few hours trying to play.
This reminds me of the adage we have in tabletop gaming as designers, "IP sells, Mechanics keep" - meaning that the only thing that actually sells games are the IP, skin, characters, setting, story, based stuff (in essence "affect-based" value things) and actual mechanics and technical stuff is really about retention of your player base. I think too many people think that you can convert someone into a purchaser of your game with mechanics and technical stuff which is just proven wrong and wrong again.
I mean yeah but there's no point in complaining unless you can complain in Japanese. American devs already proved they hear you, so no point in preaching to the choir The reality is if it works in Kansai and Kanto that's all that matters to JP PR. The only difference you make if you just don't buy it without making your reasons clear in Japanese and heard by Japanese PR, the game just doesn't get localised next time.
@Ken That or people really need to start up some shitstorms when a new game comes out with shit netcode. Nothing's gonna make a company get over themselves like an inferno of bad press.
I always come back to this. Because this speech is the truth. Because of the pandemic, online is needed now more than ever now the FG scene has gotten caught with its pants down. Its the imminent rise of rollback netcode. The future is now.
Der Di i’m not gonna front he’s an absolute pain in the urethra but for (most and i mean MOST) dante players i found a pretty good counterpick and my team worked all around . Nemesis/Thanos (nemesis could keep daunte from freely spamming projectiles with his and his armor just ran through his overhead teleport. Also thanos has teleports that he can convert into full combos so all around it was a decent matchup. But that is with my team which i was lucky enough to want to use anyways. Character loyalty is awesome but highly discouraged when dante is around. I was a lucky one
@@Mgonzaa52 you seem to have a pretty good team, and i guess you use power stone. But anyway dante could have been much much worse (remember he has been nerfed twice but is still top tier) He is our Gtgoku
Whomever tries to retaliate to this man's rant should just not play fighting games and go play something else period no excuses just go somewhere else this man's statement is 100% on point
I literally get depressed every time I go online in Smash. I know the experience is gonna be awful 95% of the time. I hardly bother anymore. Just hit up my locals
Exactly why I only play smash ult offline nowadays. Moving to other FGs like dbfz, tekken 7, mk11, UNIST, etc also helped me enjoy FGs more in general.
Great video. I started playing fighting games in 2018 coming from the likes of Dota 2. This community deserves better, but they also have an odd attachment to jank and unnecessary complications, and shoots itself in the foot whenever these concerns come up. The "but we don't want to be esports" crowd is toxic to the growth of the genre.
The problem with being esports is that they take a lot of things away from you. You think esports would allow MvC2 when it was at its best? Hell no too much shit talk and pop offs so they will think they were violent people. Compare MvC2 commentary to SF5 and you'l understand.
Thanks for the replies, let me expand a bit more on what I meant. Like I said I'm very green to the scene and the games itself. I got heavy into Tekken 7 after EVO 2018. I respect the grassroots nature of this community and I understand in part that's what keeps it tight-knit and gives it the unique atmosphere it has. People throw around the term "esports ready" for a game these days, and that can mean many things. For me it's the game providing an experience to the person that's sitting on the couch that's as close as possible to what the professionals are engaging in on the tournament stage, and the availability of tutorial/replay/analysis/etc. tools in client for the community to elevate itself to being better players; in turn keeping a healthy supply of bodies feeding into tournaments. If I were to give a specific example, the ranks on Tekken 7 are stored client side and can be modified to your liking to cheese the game's online competitive ladder. When I first realized this it broke my mind, and everyone I talked to basically said something to the effect of "that's just the way it is, online isn't real Tekken, if you want to compete go offline/locals." This wouldn't fly in any other game and it's just not compatible with how people view competitive games in the current generation. Not only that but you're missing out on discovering some amazing players without putting effort into a properly organized ladder. If I can go back to Dota 2, several of the individuals who competed in and/or won the 33 million dollar tournament were just sitting at home playing the game and were discovered through the MMR (matchmaking rating) leaderboards. These kids might not have had the money/time/permissions to travel the world for all the B-tier tournaments, or go to all the EVOs, but they let their talent speak for itself in the game. And since there is a sense of authority and reverence around the game's ladder system, because there is strict oversight and constant balancing, the people in charge of recruiting/sponsorship can be trusted do their thing in seeking out the talent. Again, just a small example that's emblematic of everything talked about in the video.
And now you can point people at Them's Fightin' Herds which was developed by a small indie studio, and has _all of these things._ I'm sure it wasn't easy, but it's absolutely doable, even if you don't have a massive budget.
It is insane hearing about The International battle pass funding so much of the prize pool, when the system was added in SF6 and there's probably none of that going to Capcom Cup. We don't have outfits (FOR CHARACTERS AND NOT AVATARS), stages, stickers, music, nothing, yet they want to have the story of making someone a millionaire. Meanwhile, we had bundles in SFV every year, we had regular costumes, but now-more than a year later-characters have 1 costume and everything else is for avatars, so we're begging for more costumes for characters we actually play. I really don't know how the game regressed like this in so many ways monetarily.
Agreed. It's not like non-fighting games have completely solved this issue. I guess it depends on how much more fighting game companies are willing to spend. One thing that's different is that these non-fighting games mentioned don't have sequels or are not pressured to having one. There are a lot of other variables at play for sure. But yeah playing fighting games for a long time and having to deal with these same problems over and over again, I completely understand on why we've lost patience. Great topic.
Facts, facts. Particular features being incompetent does turn me to other games and thus away from fighting games, my favorite genre. I hate seeing the genre I love the most struggling in these areas.
MvCi has really good net-code and fixed a lot of the issues with SFV's netcode. Wanna run it back with someone? U can immediately rematch. Wanna look for another match? Boom! Quick search from the victory screen. Wanna go back to Training mode to look for more matches and lab out your team/character? U can do that. Lobby system is off the chain, and matchmaking is really solid. That combined with the gameplay, makes it one the best running modern fighters online in the GAME right now. This is an example of companies learning from it's mistakes. But with the case of MvCi, 2 steps forward, a billion steps back.
I just want to wake up and queue for a game and not wait for a minute. In "dead" games like Apex Legends I get games in 10 seconds with 60 players and it runs smoothly. I can still get a decent time under a minute in games like Heroes of the Storm and that game is dead and burried. Meanwhile most fighting games die in less than a month and the only games you'll find are of terrible quality with the same guy over and over who may not want to rematch you or who you may rematch if only to have something to do that isn't just waiting. Battle pass, seasonal events, Dojo Wars I don't care just give players reasons to keep playing beyond increasing their rank. Because here's an idea, if more people played your game you'd have less people complain about your shitty netcode aka Apex Legends.
This is the realest and most important Fighting Game Videos on RUclips. Thank you Sajam for not being a FanBoy Shill. Fighting Games running in 900p, Lack of Instant Rematch, Season Pass that cost $93, graphics that look like it belongs on a PS2, Trash Netcode, Online lobbies that max 2 Player, takes 2 Hours to find a Rank Match, Ugly Chun li face, Weak rosters, lack of content, and the list of issue go on for multiple Fighting Game.
When a fighting game that's based off of My Little Pony and is only being worked on by around 15 people can get all the basic things right, there's really no excuse for all these AAA fighting games that sell 1 million+ copies to screw these things up.
Imagine how much the FGC would blow up if a fighting game had the same accessibility and features as a game like Dota 2, with in depth spectating, lobby systems, and fresh new blood getting invested. The only reason I don't play Guilty Gear and BlazBlue is because I have nobody to play and practice with and is as passionate about those games as I am, AND can play with me PHYSICALLY since everyone lags to high hell even if they're located in the same city.
If fighting games had KI or patched MKX netcode i'd be happy. Though people need to help it with good connection because you can have the best netcode in the world but if people have aol wifi your matches will be slower than internet explorer.
@@experimento6262 no I'm not dumb. "Patched" can be interpreted as the past tense of patch which is a verb. You were using it in the context of a noun as in "patched MKX netcode". Coming after the word "had", the past participle of "have", you can imagine how I'd assume the following would naturally be a verb e.g. had said, had made, had done. What came after however was not a verb but a phrase you used as a single noun "patched MKX netcode". In order to distinguish the two, people usually use the definite article "the". Hence your statement would become "If fighting games had KI or the patched MKX netcode" thereby hard casting the proceeding phrase as a noun and making it a bit easier to differentiate between the two. Quite apart from your first sentence, the other one has some confusing grammar but I've said enough already.
Melty Blood has an entirely different version made by the community that offers better netcode and spectator mode all the while keeping all the original ingame content and more for free unlike the steam version. Fightcade has become the number one place to play old ass fighting games with solid netcode and the ability to play with anyone quickly for free. As someone who spent hours trying to get better at games like GG, it sucked going to lobbies trying to find people to play with for like 20 minutes, sometimes 30, getting into a match with more than 10 frames of delay and after that one match, the process restarts cause that person left. UNIST lobbies has instant rematch, but the rank modes are the only sort of match search the games has cause rooms aren’t always accessible and you’ll experience some of the worst connections without the connection search settings and the mode doesn’t have instant rematch, after that one match, its to the queue/training mode. Fucking, I hope the team working on Granblue took notes on the problems of the beta cause the connection errors for that game were horrible. I know its a beta and I understand that things aren’t obviously polish, game ain’t even finish, but there multiple instances where matches wouldn’t even start. God I fuckin hate League and all, but I do hope we get levels where we aren’t even complaining about getting into matches and having to deal without with large ass delays.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Qouted :(
This is the cost of trying to get something edited the same day :(
Sorry :(
Love your work, helps digest the good Sajam parts on the go. Maybe this is asking too much, but maybe you can convince Sajam to put chat in the bottom left corner instead of that Sajam wins image? Having chat context does help when it comes to RUclips consumption. I say that since there's so many clips and times that often he's strictly talking to the chat where it makes sense to have the chat visible, as opposed to him playing something or watching something.
Amagys i 100% agree. chat makes everything make since. if that makes any since.
You did your best :(
Stop making excuses for editors that misspell in 2019 :)
As an editor, same day turnaround is insane. Hope he's paying you extra for that.
Preach.
Another point nobody brings up is if fighting games had amazing netcode you'd get a flood of hella good new competitive players from regions where there aren't scenes for the game. I love Tekken but I have no one to play. Going online for me is impossible so I haven't played it in a year or so.
Bingo. More people will come out of the woodworks when you open up the space for them to practice and compete. Quite a few people can't play because... they just can't with their life situations. Netcode that's great would help expose many potentially amazing players to people they can practice against in an almost realistic/competitive setting and get the confidence and skills they need to go out and possibly compete.
IMO not really the case. Pakistan has been the Tekken power house on the come up this year and their players ONLY play offline because the internet in their region sucks. So they focus all their energies in their offline arcade/communities. Meanwhile you have these more lesser known FGs with amazing netcode and their player bases are still far and few and concentrated in specific areas of the world (mostly NA). Even in fightcade where I'm from NA and I can match someone in Brazil with the help of GGPO, I wouldn't do it consistently because of a laggy connection. If your region has a small scene, it is going to be small regardless until someone can help bring awareness and interest for the game that a community is built for it. It doesn't help either if your regions' internet infrastructure isn't on par with Japan/Korea.
@@t4d0W I'm not saying it's impossible. But it's a great help to people who just are completely incapable of making their (closest) local scene if they even have one.
I think the Pakistan emergence is awesome. Knee recently played a Pakistani player (I can't recall his name) that mains Akuma. He had to borrow someone's stick because the scene there just plays on cabinets, which is so cool.
@@t4d0W I know locals and offline will always be the best option for those who want to get good but there have been proven cases of "online warriors" becoming good tournament players ..
The emergence of great scenes in previously unknown regions relies very heavily on accessibility issues. These can range from having tournaments in different regions like the TWT (Peru and Pakistan most recently) or epass which helps players with visas. Netcode is another huge part of that accessibility thing.
@H A W This is my situation. Its been years, so maybe I have to look again, but I currently have no scene where I live, and theres not much interest. So consistent local competition just doesnt exist where Im at. ( Cincinnati is 40 minutes away for reference)
Yes, I can play SF5 and Smash online, but its such a diffrent, less fun game than it is local. But 3rd strike OE and Skullgirls? Fucking seemless 80% of the time, even with my connection being spastic as it can be sometimes.
The one nice thing about Smash's garbage online is that finding someone to really defend it's awful netplay is supremely rare.
@smelly paws I’ve seen people who defend it while shitting on rollback lmao
Now get Maximilian to make the same video and may be we'll get somewhere.
That would help a lot.
Maximilian has a video on this and has discussed this on stream in depth. The developers just don't want to work on netcode when it works perfectly in their own country.
Marvel vs capcom infinite has great netcode
@@vironamas123 "when it works perfecly in their own country" twitter.com/john_takeuchi/status/1162562266027327488
yeah man, glorious nippon netcode folded a thousand times
@@Morrigan101 "great netcode" bad design and characters LUL omegaSPAM
This is straight up the fgc gospel.
Hallelujah
And Sajam is the fgc pope
Haven't even listened to this yet but I know this is real shit
Brian_F brain F chan uwu
Same
I love Tekken, but I love the call out of Tekken. People act as if the game is infallible.
Yeah people say that is the best FG ever... Like what the fuck
Maybe from a competetive standpoint it is, but from the consumer standpoint that pays $60 it is just pathetic.
No tutorial
Boring layout
Shitty online
No single player content that is worth a damn
But hey at least they got the gameplay right so who cares about the rest?!
@@eddi8634 But not buying the game means throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. All you can do is buy and complain.. you fucking mong.
@@eddi8634 You're a clown ass dude if you bought tekken for single player content lmaoooooo
@@jw5931 Yea, like who the fuck buys FG for single player content? Nobody enjoys playing against the bot
Yeah. I love Tekken 7. Tekken is my favorite series. But I typically play other games if I'm playing online because it takes so long to get into matches and you're locked into one character whenever you go online.
But sajam, gamers have Stockholm syndrome and love being treated like cash cows.
@AgentFlea You actually can blame McDonalds though, because everything from the marketing, the brand colors, and the way they design their food is made to psychologically entice people to come back and you don't stay as full off their food that long so you spend more money more often.
@AgentFlea If you think psychology is that simple, then there's no further conversation to be had. 🤷🏽♂️
@@thesamuraiman i mean i can agree that they are heavily marketed to keep people coming back. But if you cant stop when you see yourself getting unhealthy, then the company shouldn't be blamed
@AgentFlea unfortunately behavioural psychology has nothing to do with intelligence
@AgentFlea this comments old as hell but still very stupid, manipulation is DESIGNED to work on people who think they are "too smart" to be manipulated. YOU are the mark
Can we please add CROSSPLAY to the list of things fighting games need in the future!?
Just wait it out. Not much longer imo
"Here, just take my lunch money! Ill never see you again after I graduate middle school"
One step at a time we gotta get good netcode first
@@DragonoftheDarknessFlame We have netcode, and crossplay... just have to make it standard... didn't you watch the video?
Leon O'Grian Tekken,Guilty Gear, SF, Dragon Ball, SC6, and many more don't have good net code. The question did you watch the video he clearly states the games with good Netcode and the only modern one was MK11. Before that Skullgirls and KI two old ass games. Pay attention
It's weird how Punch Planet, an indie game, has instant rematch and ggpo that lets me play people across the country, spectator features, and an the most detailed training mode, but you can't even get frame data or decent netcode in Tekken.
The lack of frame data's a shame.
But the netcode?
That'll be on your end, pal.
dudeonthasopha
The netcode is GODLIKE IN TEKKEN 7, Frame data sucks STOP TALKING OUT YO ASS bucko🤣
@@1Diddums you think that trash Japan keeps giving us is good? Oh you poor bastard.
@@1Diddums Ah, another one of the morons Sajam was just talking about.
@@dudeonthasopha Well.
I'm talking from experience. As are you.
Your experience seems to have been quite poor compared to mine.
Maybe the issue lies with you, is all.
Sajam made great points, you don't _have to_ mindlessly sheep his words. Especially when it applies to nothing I said.
This resonates with me so hard. I love fighting games for the raw gameplay, but as overall games a lot of them honestly suck. People really need to hold games in this genre to a higher standard already.
Why do I have to "gEt ReAdY fOr ThE nExT BaTtLe"
Funny part is in older Tekken like T5 it did load while doing it. Now it's just a video which you can mod away on pc without issues.
because it's fucking cool
Funny enough, they actually got it right in Tag 2 and that free-to-play game Revolution. Text gets shown, immediately transitions into versus screen, immediately transtiions into skippable character intros, FIGHT.
@@vulcan422 truth
Maximilian Dood answered this question. It's because T7 is direct port of the arcade game and that's the way the arcade game has to run.
As a old man that's been playing fighting games and DotA forever, Sajam is %100 on point.
SFV netcode is what made me quit the game if I played one more “5 bar” Guile from Mexico teleporting all over the place I was gonna rip my hair out
LMAO so true
Brazillian Ken is the worst
Still more casual than Dark Souls.
keep it lit 925 hahahahaha
Sonic boom Sonic boom Sonic Boom Sonic B..*teleport instinct grab* KO You Lose
“Fighting game players don’t have money” that’s a ridiculous statement. Most of us are old and balding.
Thems Fightin Herds and Skullgirls were designed with GGPO in mind, a key reason it works so well. KI runs at a higher frame rate internally than what’s displayed, so it’s able to make error corrections that are far less noticeable.
Modern fighters need to be designed with a ready made netcode in mind AND run at a higher frame rate internally like KI does. Best of both worlds.
Skullgirls still has the best Training Mode by far. Why everyone isn’t copy pasting it is beyond me.
I could not agree more. I’m new to the fgc and I’m constantly surprised with how many simple quality of life things aren’t in most of the games.
I also think there is a stigma around around “staling” ideas from other games. Like how after Apex legends came out and fortnight added a respawn mechanic. If it’s a good idea and everyone likes it the why wouldn’t I want my other games to have it?
Please “steal” all the quality of life things from all the successful games. Leave the originality to your character/story design.
Fighting games and other games are fundamentally different being a 1v1, meaning direct connections are necessary. For instance, asking for good netcode isn't a small ask. Most of the huge games have bad, delay based netcode, be a use all games reside on servers. Comparing it to Dota is funny, because the fact is all, MO A players are simply OK WITH 35-150 ping when playing online, while fighting games want to be playing at 0.
This combined with the fact that fighting games have the lifespan of like, 6 months before the bulk of players move on to the next game like people treat new patches.
The excuse I'm going to make for them is basically this, even when the solution exists, fighting games are so short lived for most people it's not worth it to them.
@@hteety It's hard to stick with a fighting game long term as inevitably you will get tired of playing the same characters all of the time stomping on and getting stomped on online.
Me: capcom fix sf5 god damn netcode
Capcom: heres more chung li costumes
Marlin J They fixed it in MVCI...... but didn’t put that NetCode into V. SMH
Marlin J “chung li” lmao
I’m kinda down on hope sfv will get better netcode
You say you wan't better netcode but what you really want are new Street Fighter themed razer phone cases!
this is how I know you dont play SFV since you spelt in Chung Li...
Tekken 7 is arguably the most active and hype FG at the moment growing day by day and has awful netcode, bland training mode, bland interface, no proper lobby, no waiting for online matches in practice mode, long loading screens, etc. I can't even imagine how things would've been if those issues had been implemented correctly from the start
I love Tekken 7, but the lack of instant rematch is really dumb. I have to reconnect to my opponent during a Player Match. Why? We are already connected. Just queue up another "round" (match) and reset the round count. Why can't that happen??
@@TheKnattydread have you tried resetting the stage in training mode? Even in Forgotten Realm it's super fast. Why doesn't rematch in player match reset it at that speed?
also no instant rematch, and decades old animations.
Sad part is Tekken 7 was technically finished in 2015... They was "tweaking" and adding "features" for two years before the home releases.
@@Ktronprime The "features" you mention is allowing players to make their character look like goku I assume.
As someone who just started getting into Tekken from being an '09er, thank you for this conversation. Absolutely love the game but I can't even play with someone in my own city without netcode issues, I'm thankful to have an offline scene but it's not excusable that online play is held together by duct-tape and hope.
Max sent me here. I see you already have 2 more video extensions to this. I am spending an hour and a half listening to everything wrong in my favorite gaming genre.
OMFG THANK YOU GUYS FOR SAYING WHAT NEEDED TO BE SAID.
This guy makes good points. We as gamers need to ask for more. Stop buying trash. Show the companies that we're not gonna bend over and take the half-finished games they churn out.
Holy shit your donation shout-outs are freaking seamless
You don't have to speak broadly Sajam. It should be pretty clear by now this is a fundamental problem isolated to Japanese developers. Just about everything western developed comes with some form of competent roll back implementation and robust, accessible online features. Just in general there is a concerted effort for most western games (hell, even Korean developed) to have robust netcode for all games online, not just fighting games.
Thank you for this video man. Seriously, even though I'm just 5 mins I already agree. I've been saying this, especially as a Tekken fan. The gameplay of that game is good but in most other aspects it's hot garbage as a product. I've already told myself that if I don't see a marked improvement in the next generation I'm done with the genre, as much as I love it.
The worst part is the people that defend it, it's infuriating.
All of this is not even mentioning the lackluster singleplayer content that comes with these "$60" games. Look at the naruto ultimate ninja storm games, why can't we have even half the production put into those games be the standard.
I agree, I mean I know it's all extra but if you are going to put something extra in why bowling? Why not something like that action beat em' up that T5 had? :)
@@mikejonesnoreally Tekken Bowling is such a middlefingers to fans/customers. At least bring back tekkenball smh
Fightcade out here doing better than modern FG devs
and fightcade as a project is halted lol
I laughed at the ol' Fgc poverty nonsense. Back in the 90s when arcades were more common in inner city and urban communities, it made a bit more sense to argue ppl stuck to 25 or 50 cent games over buying consoles. When you are playing games on ps4, with triple digit cost fightsticks, and in some cases traveling cross country, you arent a poverty community.
This is the same community that made the special edition Victrix fightsticks sell out almost immediately at EVO despite being overpriced like crazy. People in fgc definitely throw their money around when they want to. A battle pass or something is nothing
No, it was cheaper to buy a console.
Because fgc is where most of the older people are, money is not an issue for them, quality neither, they play on nostalgia 😅
@@eightykakes15 it was definitely not cheaper to buy a console if you're sitting there on a given saturday afternoon, wanting to play some games. Sure you spend more over the long term period, but many people were much more likely to spend 5 or 10 bucks on some arcade visits than save up for a console and expensive cartridge.
@@misterkeebler ... so you just basically agreed and disagreed with me. Do you know how much money we dumped into arcades in a weekend. And the arcade was PACKED. It's not up for debate... 4-6 kids spending $60-$100 in a weekend over the course of a summer maybe going 3 or 4 times that summer...mathz...we could have purchased a console dude... several... with a game or two.
@@misterkeebler you spent only $5 at the arcade... ok.😐
Fantasy Strike and Thems Fighting Herds use GGPO, easy rematches, and good UI... Even the indies know what's up.
Wow, American made games have good NetCode? They must have some super secret technology that the Japanese don’t know about to get such little lag. Skullgirls and KI too!? That’s crazy.
I just want to play Guilty Gear without 7 frames delay
@@DripNZ its cause it works for Japan and ArcSys doesnt give a shit about the USA
@@erickdredd it does have lobbies though. Literally one of the games highlights.
@@DripNZ Mate, I'm in England. I just want someone to play guilty gear with at all.
@@DripNZ you enjoying strive?
Every fighting game dev needs to watch this please and thank you
Its even better to share that video to all the fighting game devs and forcefully make them take the note out of it
Big rip to everyone struggling with Tekken netcode. True online warriors
Tk_Haste yea especially on PS4
Ken i dunno man it’s much worse than people say especially for people whom the game is not popular in their country
FGC Steve some of my 5 bar matches are so laggy. “But bruh you’ve got 5 bars” yeah but it’s PS4. If you know you know
@@HasteXXI wifi kills everything. In Korea it's impossible to not have 5 bar matches tho
Rodmar I’ll just move to Korea so to be a Tekken nerd lol
Too true man. I love tekken 7 but get ready for the next battle over and over has always bothered me. Im glad im not the only one
Played Tekken 7 exclusively for matches with a friend who lived 20 minutes away in the same town as me. Honestly crazy how long we have to wait to "Get ready for the next battle" even though we were 20 matches in.
nintendo hasn't even conceptualized the possibility of taking games online.
Well......yeah
Cut nintendo some slack, they are just a small indie company
Ehhhh. Splatoon and brawl beg to differ.
Im contemplating quitting ssbu because Nintendo’s online team is apparently living in 2004.
@@konnermorris1753 brawls online is worse than ultimates but go off
Feels like it gonna take a community effort (from all fighting games) to make the devs realize why rollback/ GGPO (in the right way) should be the standard
KILLING MYSELF TO TRY & GET IN IN MINE XD
=)
Or a pandemic
Worst thing in the world to read when some dude says “idk I don’t seem to get laggy matches when I play online” when everyone complains about how bad a games netcode is. Like whyyyyyy???? KI truly was ahead of its time.
I think it makes it worse that KI was not even ahead of it's time. It was an appropriate evolution from GGPO many years earlier. The first version of GGPO was in 2006. It was that many years ago and the core concept had all this time to be improved and evolved since then.
Last night i played a dude in UMvC3 with a lag so bad that the match was like 7 minutes long and the clock had like 37 seconds (marvel time) left. But then i've played others that felt close to offline. It's not just the netcode but people's connection has a lot to do with it too.
With all the EVO 2022 rollback announcements, I had to rewatch this video to remind myself how far we’ve come
Boy, wouldn't 2019 Sajam love to hear that it took a fucking global pandemic to get more devs to even acknowledge the need for better QoL features.
yeah that just sad but am happy that it happening now let go for crossplay next
Incredible that it took another three years that to see a major non-NRS dev implement all of these systems without any caveats.
Someone link this video to SNK, Capcom,
BANDAI NAMCO Studios and Arc System Works on all social media platforms.
Why won't YOU do it?
@@FolkloreYT Because I don't have thousands of FGC members following me, I'm just a spectator and have no influence.
Spitfire 99251 if enough spectators do it, the big people will share it.
Spitfire 99251 I just made my own rant and am about to link that shit to as many as I can and also link sajam stuff.
@@YaYa-ex8cu no excuse lol
Simple solution, just come and play Killer Instinct
i dont like the characters. They just dont look cool to me. so cant
Power Rangers BftG has a better netcode than DBFZ. The ui though... :/
Yeah the games fun its a shame that the ui and training mode are awful
Marvel vs capcom infinite has better gameplay and netcode
PR is fugly. Lol
I prefer a good netcode over a good UI tbh.
and it does Cross-platform play as a selling point.
Absolutely right man, thank you for the facts. Keep these people in line!!
Thank you for this. So many gamers can be Stockholm Syndromed about their favorite game genre or franchise or studio. This has to stop.
This is my new favorite channel. Sajam is my spirit animal. This channel is criminally undersubscribed. Ima start sharing all this as soon as social media isn't actively burning down.
So smash ultimate has:
- The worst training mode of any current fighting game
- The worst netcode of any current fighting game
- Terrible lobbies that lag when a spectator has a bad connection
And people still defend it
Dark Seid Isn’t GSP just a rank?
Bro, SSBU most popular fighting game atm, worst everything. These bums still love it and defend it more than theydefend their own mothers. WWWHHHYYYYYYYY???????
Dark Seid I was just asking. You’re right though.
Because it's Smash, and the fanbase will hunt you down and crucify you if you try and tell them what's bad about their game.
Fanbase too insular. Too much rabid support for a game that's bred from the fact that their scene erupted from nothingness and legitimately close to zero support with Melee and 64. I feel there's another reason a large part of the FGC at large denies the game's status as a fighting game beyond just the gameplay: the community is so insular and, perhaps, disdainful of games in the FGC. A Street Fighter player respects a Tekken player respect a UNIST player respects a Samurai Showdown player respect a DBFZ player respects a BBTAG player. On and on. In fact, there's a decent chance a large amount of people play or at least watch these other games.
But Smash players don't branch out. They don't really watch other stuff generally. They don't play other stuff other than like Leffen (props to him for that at least, though he's a bit of an asshole). And that makes interacting with them... tiresome.
Let me say that I like to watch it. I enjoy playing it. But a lot of players just seem kinda close minded regarding other stuff and rabidly defend their game as a result of that and its history.
"Say it sucks, Say it's trash."
New T-shirt
you're spot on in this video. I just want a fighting game that has everything done right or at least mostly right
Holy Shit!
Finally!
A USEFUL good fighting game video made on RUclips since USF4 that actually makes sense and is worth talking about!
I think the biggest problem is Japan. So many FG's are developed there and Japan has amazing internet so normal delay based netcode is just fine for Japan. As a result it's "good enough" for them and that's enough. Why bother with GGPO when their own solution works just fine for them? American made FG's use GGPO so they work great. Japan simply doesn't NEED GGPO so why bother with it. Mind you I wish they would, but this is my theory on why they don't.
because an international market should dictate that you optimize your game's success by prioritizing things like netcode/lobbies so that every player can enjoy your product, regardless if the internet is amazing in JP or not
Actually I think it has more to do with Japanese pride. It's not that they can't afford to license GGPO, since they tinker with their netcode every game they release and that costs money too...
The funny thing is, well done rollback would still benefit them. They may not explicitly need it but it would help in instances where there is instability in connections between each other, masking that with their low latencies. It would also be a benefit to them to have offline-like play rahter than have 1 to 2 frames of lag (16 to 34ms ping).
@@rootdroid9472 thank you for that. I keep hearing that "It's okay in Japan" line and I think it's just a bad excuse 😕
It's not even that simple. Delay-based works better than rollback-based if your ping is consistently low, which is the case in Japan, so switching to rollback would negatively impact the Japanese players. Probably the best solution would be to just give the players the option to choose which type they prefer.
It's strange that the main genre of games that prides itself on competing one player against another, and barely implementing online, and just doesn't care, or can't work out how to get online working...
(my good friend traded SF5 in really fast because it didn't have a good single player experience, and knew playing online was dreadful.)
I lived in Australia for 31 years of my life with high latency on terrible internet, and I always knew that if I bought any fighting game, I would only be playing with a couple of real life friends for a couples days ever.
(i think I played SFIV 3 times, and SFV 1 time, despite me practicing in training mode tons to get better, or trying to educate myself online through videos or threads.)
"I can't play with people more than two states away" LMAOOO I live in the center of Texas and super smash bros lags for me with people just one city over, and sometimes even for people closer than that, god I wish smash had good netcode
Great video, glad Max sent me!
As a game developer: if you have a system in your game that can play "Round 2" that means that you already have everything you need for a match replay without loading. Everything else is a lie.
*Sajam:*
The Militia for Fighting Games
so true. Its good to hear such realness. Ppl used to get butthurt when I said I lost interest in kof 13 because it has a loading screen after each round. Not sure if they fixed that in 14 but it kills the momentum of a fighting game.
Tekken should make an effort to include frame data as well as some form of movement tutorial etc. in the future
I'm glad someone with a voice is finally saying something about this. Everything that you said about online is on point. When ggpo came out and did it up on online play I thought every fighting game company would do the same.
This still holds up. 😅
It's a boiled frog syndrome. You can see that with Apex's recent blunder, where a worrying amount of people made excuses (not only that, but in a very assertive, aggressive and matter-of-fact kind of way) such as "it's a f2p game", "players are entitled" (my favorite) and such. Things are in general ridiculous these last couple of years, yet people approach it on some either/or basis ("developers have to eat" - so, everything atrocious should be forgiven, "if you don't like it, don't buy it" - so, I can't criticize the product etc).
Large factor I suspect is Japanese culture. I have multiple friends who work for Panasonic in Lake Forest and they are hamstrung by headquarters in Japan. Japanese work culture is too slow, consensus-based, not innovative.
They actually went over a massive reorg because things were broken and not working Department wise.
So culture is one and then they have Monopoly so people just accept whatever they have so that's the second major factor I can see.
Yeah, hierarchy may influence this decisions too, and you're right that they're trying to improve on that side, mostly because newer generations won't allow it.
But also, Japan is pretty proud of their work and I think it has more to do with that, I think they just don't like the idea of giving up and using a non-japanese solution.
The interview for the new GG was pretty bad. It was confirmed that they've known about GGPO for years but they refused to use it.
Based on what we know about Japanese developer culture it seems like it is more likely that they will implement good rollback net code of their own design rather than implement something developed in a different country. Unfortunately it seems yet more likely than either of those is that they will just continue to have bad netcode like 95% of other fighting games.
Do you have a link? I didn't know about this
@@StrawberriFC Oh whoops, my memory was failing me slightly. It was about BBTAG and not GG, but here it is
www.reddit.com/r/Guiltygear/comments/cmpq6b/arksys_and_ggpo_may_2018_interview_about_bbtag/
@@bradb2680 Its a matter of pride that goes beyond nationality really. They wouldnt use a japanese made one if it meant abandoning their in-house developed netcode. You already see this in Bamco refusing to use any other lobby system.
SNK is the weird one. They rerelased SS5S with ggpo officially, which means they have the license, but samsho 2019 had garbage netcode
Code mystics, a canadian company that ports old neogeo games for SNK, implemented GGPO. they have been trying to get permission to implement GGPO in their ports for a long time, the first one they were allowed to add it to was KOF97 on steam (it was added in may 2018), then later SS5SP this year.
SNK doesn't seem to give a shit though, going by how slapdash the new samurai shodown is when it comes to netplay.
I'm ready for the RIOT announced fighting game to do all of these things right, pump out skins and make the updates into events and hype their consumer base to stick around and spend money. And I'm also ready for the devs who can't implement proper netcode to see RIOT's success, try and copy them, and still fail on a basic level.
You mean the same company that took like 5+ years to implement a sandbox mode, watchable replays, and in-client spectating? The same company that can't balance a game for shit, and has shitty monetization models? The same company that r/LeagueofLegends calls out ALL THE FUCKING TIME for doing dumb shit? Maybe, but only because Seth Killian is on board.
I'm ready to get shafted by shitty monetization bullshit riot is sadly known for nowadays
I think that fighting game was just TeamFIGHT Tactics... rofl
Don't forget the voice chat!
@@Apsandman And Seth Killian is no longer on board. twitter.com/slasher/status/1157809555335712769?lang=en-gb
I feel like Capcom specifically watched this video every morning while making SF6.
You play KI an discover good netcode,try other FG is so sad netcode is s**t.
🎯The greatness of this video cant be denied..Big salute
When can we start talking about cross platforming? At least between XBox and Windows. Speaking from a long time PC MK player.
Higgs666 As long as Sony has the biggest console in the room they have no reason to allow it outside of specific exceptions. It definitely hurts the players, though.
You can play Xbox and Windows in some games so you late on that
@@BHS289 Every console giant gets so anal when it's their turn for dominance. Microsoft said no during their 360 days, and now Sony is doing the same. Even worse is that Sony's reason for doing so is clearly reflected in how they police and curate their platform: they're known to censor stuff, and they cite the ability to "ensure a safe Playstation experience" as a major reason for no cross play. We all know they're also banking on people's friends having one console.
They're so stubborn, but the friends having one console factor isn't as big as it was anymore. You want people to buy your console? You've got insanely good exclusives, Sony! They should know this better than anyone. Horizon Zero Dawn, Spider Man, Bloodborne, Persona 5, Uncharted, God of War. I know many people buying a Playstation exclusively for these. These kinds of games get people to buy it.
We need to get out of the 90's first before we even think about crossplay.
when netcode catches up overall. Because it doesn't matter if you can cross platform but you gotta play against someone on a lag fest.
It's crazy that this is the one thing that players choose to defend developers about, while constantly complaining about the developers not listening because their favorite character won't get buffed.
Jump force didn't have an instant rematch button until 6 months after release and they even had a trailer for it when it got released lol😂😂
jump force was depressing honestly
Sajam, advocating for the fighting game working class.
If KOF has shit netcode again, I won't even bother buying it.
Same. They can fuck off with that shit.
Luckily they seemed to have finally gotten it right with the new SamSho after a patch, which works so well I hope they could do the same to KOF14 (though they're concentrating on 15).
But, Sajam's talk.....really hits home lol.
Yeah I'm never buying another fighting game before scoping out the netcode, input lag, etc.
...Except smash because it's too good and I play offline lol
@@ensanesane Yo, for real, the smash community has to stop letting Nintendo get away with this shit too. SSBU was announced the "Fighting game of the Year" at the Game Awards, it's absolutely inexcusable as to why a company as big as Nintendo can't provide a solid training mode at the VERY least. And don't even get me started on the input lag. Online obviously requires work, but even offline the game functions as a subpar experience as a fighting game.
@@ishtarvaughn3641 the problem with that idea is Nintendo actually doesn't care full stop. They're interested if the most "Japanese" Japanese companies out there. They have never released a game with even a somewhat player online experience and I doubt they ever will
I watched this on stream but had to come here and drop a like, great job and great talk Sajam!
Can someone post a link to purchase ggpo Tony cannon doesn't answer any of my messages and I need this to develop my fighting game
This is excellent. Fighting games are incredible and have become my favorite esports to watch out of everything I consume, but the lack of good online, deep tutorials, and progression systems pulls me back to LoL, WoW, or Magic after just a few hours trying to play.
One year anniversary of this god tier rant
This reminds me of the adage we have in tabletop gaming as designers, "IP sells, Mechanics keep" - meaning that the only thing that actually sells games are the IP, skin, characters, setting, story, based stuff (in essence "affect-based" value things) and actual mechanics and technical stuff is really about retention of your player base. I think too many people think that you can convert someone into a purchaser of your game with mechanics and technical stuff which is just proven wrong and wrong again.
I mean yeah but there's no point in complaining unless you can complain in Japanese. American devs already proved they hear you, so no point in preaching to the choir
The reality is if it works in Kansai and Kanto that's all that matters to JP PR. The only difference you make if you just don't buy it without making your reasons clear in Japanese and heard by Japanese PR, the game just doesn't get localised next time.
@Ken That or people really need to start up some shitstorms when a new game comes out with shit netcode. Nothing's gonna make a company get over themselves like an inferno of bad press.
I always come back to this. Because this speech is the truth. Because of the pandemic, online is needed now more than ever now the FG scene has gotten caught with its pants down. Its the imminent rise of rollback netcode. The future is now.
The only time the FGC was honest (maybe even too much honesty) was with MVCI
btw mvci has a great netcode
Der Di it’s gameplay is also the best since mvc2 and it’s the least broken mvc game to date
@@Mgonzaa52 yes the gameplay is great too. i just wish we could ban dante
Der Di i’m not gonna front he’s an absolute pain in the urethra but for (most and i mean MOST) dante players i found a pretty good counterpick and my team worked all around . Nemesis/Thanos (nemesis could keep daunte from freely spamming projectiles with his and his armor just ran through his overhead teleport. Also thanos has teleports that he can convert into full combos so all around it was a decent matchup. But that is with my team which i was lucky enough to want to use anyways. Character loyalty is awesome but highly discouraged when dante is around. I was a lucky one
@@Mgonzaa52 you seem to have a pretty good team, and i guess you use power stone.
But anyway dante could have been much much worse (remember he has been nerfed twice but is still top tier)
He is our Gtgoku
Yep
Whomever tries to retaliate to this man's rant should just not play fighting games and go play something else period no excuses just go somewhere else this man's statement is 100% on point
I literally get depressed every time I go online in Smash. I know the experience is gonna be awful 95% of the time. I hardly bother anymore. Just hit up my locals
Exactly why I only play smash ult offline nowadays. Moving to other FGs like dbfz, tekken 7, mk11, UNIST, etc also helped me enjoy FGs more in general.
Great video. I started playing fighting games in 2018 coming from the likes of Dota 2. This community deserves better, but they also have an odd attachment to jank and unnecessary complications, and shoots itself in the foot whenever these concerns come up. The "but we don't want to be esports" crowd is toxic to the growth of the genre.
The problem with being esports is that they take a lot of things away from you. You think esports would allow MvC2 when it was at its best? Hell no too much shit talk and pop offs so they will think they were violent people. Compare MvC2 commentary to SF5 and you'l understand.
that's not even what the video was about, though.
Not being "eSports" has nothing to do with a having a properly functional game.
i had the exact same take about the toxic "we aint esports crowd" when i starting playing fighting games in 2009 sad to see its still the same. :(
Thanks for the replies, let me expand a bit more on what I meant. Like I said I'm very green to the scene and the games itself. I got heavy into Tekken 7 after EVO 2018. I respect the grassroots nature of this community and I understand in part that's what keeps it tight-knit and gives it the unique atmosphere it has. People throw around the term "esports ready" for a game these days, and that can mean many things. For me it's the game providing an experience to the person that's sitting on the couch that's as close as possible to what the professionals are engaging in on the tournament stage, and the availability of tutorial/replay/analysis/etc. tools in client for the community to elevate itself to being better players; in turn keeping a healthy supply of bodies feeding into tournaments.
If I were to give a specific example, the ranks on Tekken 7 are stored client side and can be modified to your liking to cheese the game's online competitive ladder. When I first realized this it broke my mind, and everyone I talked to basically said something to the effect of "that's just the way it is, online isn't real Tekken, if you want to compete go offline/locals." This wouldn't fly in any other game and it's just not compatible with how people view competitive games in the current generation. Not only that but you're missing out on discovering some amazing players without putting effort into a properly organized ladder. If I can go back to Dota 2, several of the individuals who competed in and/or won the 33 million dollar tournament were just sitting at home playing the game and were discovered through the MMR (matchmaking rating) leaderboards. These kids might not have had the money/time/permissions to travel the world for all the B-tier tournaments, or go to all the EVOs, but they let their talent speak for itself in the game. And since there is a sense of authority and reverence around the game's ladder system, because there is strict oversight and constant balancing, the people in charge of recruiting/sponsorship can be trusted do their thing in seeking out the talent. Again, just a small example that's emblematic of everything talked about in the video.
And now you can point people at Them's Fightin' Herds which was developed by a small indie studio, and has _all of these things._
I'm sure it wasn't easy, but it's absolutely doable, even if you don't have a massive budget.
This sounds oddly similar to the whole Pokemon situation
It is insane hearing about The International battle pass funding so much of the prize pool, when the system was added in SF6 and there's probably none of that going to Capcom Cup. We don't have outfits (FOR CHARACTERS AND NOT AVATARS), stages, stickers, music, nothing, yet they want to have the story of making someone a millionaire. Meanwhile, we had bundles in SFV every year, we had regular costumes, but now-more than a year later-characters have 1 costume and everything else is for avatars, so we're begging for more costumes for characters we actually play. I really don't know how the game regressed like this in so many ways monetarily.
Tekken really needs that lobby fix and could really use some more costumes and stages
The things we allow in fighters wouldn't even fly for a nano second in other genres and that's a problem
TAKE THIS TO THE SNK HQ
Agreed. It's not like non-fighting games have completely solved this issue. I guess it depends on how much more fighting game companies are willing to spend. One thing that's different is that these non-fighting games mentioned don't have sequels or are not pressured to having one. There are a lot of other variables at play for sure. But yeah playing fighting games for a long time and having to deal with these same problems over and over again, I completely understand on why we've lost patience. Great topic.
So what games have good rollback netcode so far? Killer Instinct and Skullgirls ? The future is dark
Marvel vs capcom infinite
"You look like a real bitch right now"
Facts, facts. Particular features being incompetent does turn me to other games and thus away from fighting games, my favorite genre. I hate seeing the genre I love the most struggling in these areas.
Damn, that was some real talk.
MvCi has really good net-code and fixed a lot of the issues with SFV's netcode. Wanna run it back with someone? U can immediately rematch. Wanna look for another match? Boom! Quick search from the victory screen. Wanna go back to Training mode to look for more matches and lab out your team/character? U can do that. Lobby system is off the chain, and matchmaking is really solid. That combined with the gameplay, makes it one the best running modern fighters online in the GAME right now. This is an example of companies learning from it's mistakes. But with the case of MvCi, 2 steps forward, a billion steps back.
I just want to wake up and queue for a game and not wait for a minute. In "dead" games like Apex Legends I get games in 10 seconds with 60 players and it runs smoothly. I can still get a decent time under a minute in games like Heroes of the Storm and that game is dead and burried. Meanwhile most fighting games die in less than a month and the only games you'll find are of terrible quality with the same guy over and over who may not want to rematch you or who you may rematch if only to have something to do that isn't just waiting. Battle pass, seasonal events, Dojo Wars I don't care just give players reasons to keep playing beyond increasing their rank. Because here's an idea, if more people played your game you'd have less people complain about your shitty netcode aka Apex Legends.
This is the realest and most important Fighting Game Videos on RUclips. Thank you Sajam for not being a FanBoy Shill. Fighting Games running in 900p, Lack of Instant Rematch, Season Pass that cost $93, graphics that look like it belongs on a PS2, Trash Netcode, Online lobbies that max 2 Player, takes 2 Hours to find a Rank Match, Ugly Chun li face, Weak rosters, lack of content, and the list of issue go on for multiple Fighting Game.
When a fighting game that's based off of My Little Pony and is only being worked on by around 15 people can get all the basic things right, there's really no excuse for all these AAA fighting games that sell 1 million+ copies to screw these things up.
Imagine how much the FGC would blow up if a fighting game had the same accessibility and features as a game like Dota 2, with in depth spectating, lobby systems, and fresh new blood getting invested. The only reason I don't play Guilty Gear and BlazBlue is because I have nobody to play and practice with and is as passionate about those games as I am, AND can play with me PHYSICALLY since everyone lags to high hell even if they're located in the same city.
If fighting games had KI or patched MKX netcode i'd be happy. Though people need to help it with good connection because you can have the best netcode in the world but if people have aol wifi your matches will be slower than internet explorer.
MKX netcode? The netcode in that game is godlike.
@@Shockwave231 i said patched MKX netcode for a reason. It was trash until they patched it.
@@experimento6262 Hmm your grammar is a bit off but word
@@Shockwave231 just read the first sentence and you'd understand. I don't think you're that dumb. Patched as FIXED. Thanks for your time.
@@experimento6262 no I'm not dumb. "Patched" can be interpreted as the past tense of patch which is a verb. You were using it in the context of a noun as in "patched MKX netcode". Coming after the word "had", the past participle of "have", you can imagine how I'd assume the following would naturally be a verb e.g. had said, had made, had done.
What came after however was not a verb but a phrase you used as a single noun "patched MKX netcode". In order to distinguish the two, people usually use the definite article "the". Hence your statement would become "If fighting games had KI or the patched MKX netcode" thereby hard casting the proceeding phrase as a noun and making it a bit easier to differentiate between the two.
Quite apart from your first sentence, the other one has some confusing grammar but I've said enough already.
We’re in the good timeline now with Strive and SF6, hopefully Tekken gets their shit together too
Tekken 8 CNT netcode got a mix of good and bad, not like SF6/Strive level.
Melty Blood has an entirely different version made by the community that offers better netcode and spectator mode all the while keeping all the original ingame content and more for free unlike the steam version. Fightcade has become the number one place to play old ass fighting games with solid netcode and the ability to play with anyone quickly for free. As someone who spent hours trying to get better at games like GG, it sucked going to lobbies trying to find people to play with for like 20 minutes, sometimes 30, getting into a match with more than 10 frames of delay and after that one match, the process restarts cause that person left. UNIST lobbies has instant rematch, but the rank modes are the only sort of match search the games has cause rooms aren’t always accessible and you’ll experience some of the worst connections without the connection search settings and the mode doesn’t have instant rematch, after that one match, its to the queue/training mode. Fucking, I hope the team working on Granblue took notes on the problems of the beta cause the connection errors for that game were horrible. I know its a beta and I understand that things aren’t obviously polish, game ain’t even finish, but there multiple instances where matches wouldn’t even start. God I fuckin hate League and all, but I do hope we get levels where we aren’t even complaining about getting into matches and having to deal without with large ass delays.
Now it's 2024 and we eatin' good out here, baby.