You have to leave your house, go find a venue, pay for that venue, just to have a normal fighting game experience after you paid $60 for the game. God forbid your local doesn't have a scene for your game of choice lol
@@OseiTheWarriors you'd be pretty hard pressed to find people in my town who even know what a "Guilty Gear" is. I'm sure it works for big ass cities, not so much with smaller places
35 year old here. I have a local within walking distance of my house. Haven't been once in 5 years. No time in my life for that. Without online I'd never play fighters.
It's so absurd, I'm from a small town in Brazil, the nearest local to me is in fucking Peru. It's like they think US is the only place in the world that plays fgs. Not to mention that most places in the US do not have locals.
Right? I'm in my 30s and in a big city, but my locals are at like 3pm on a weekday because the bulk of the community is young college kids and high school aged kids that want to play before curfew. Like damn, I have a kid and a job and things to do, can I just have functioning netcode so I can play an acceptable match with my friends who have all ended up spread out across a few states as our lives progressed? I'm not trying to be Daigo anymore, I'm trying to just use the product I purchased at this point.
43 year old here, been playing since 92 when I saw the first cab in our town in the back of our 7-11. Net code needs to be good. Arcades just do not exist and gaming bars are too few and far between.
@@sklitterbeer106 it's the reference to the katana smithing technology. It is a widespread misconception that this thechnology gives katana its near mystical qualities although it it's not true. Basically Sajam comperes mystical Japanese internet to mystical Katana.
That tweet is so stupid saying companies would make better netcode if they made more money. The tweet even brings up smash. They must not have known smash has the worst netcode besides making hella money. We need to speak with our wallets and support devs that do it right. Let's hear more excuses though, definitely the way to go.
We agree that netcode is basically the top priority in the technical development of a fighting game. We spent years on developing and tuning the netcode for Fantasy Strike, which uses GGPO as well as our own tech. Our netcode is very, very good. In the Steam version (where you have more CPU power than consoles usually), it's actually the best we've seen. Seriously, try it. We also agree that developers should be thinking about the online experience overall, even beyond netcode. The UI is very important. Getting in the casual or ranked queue should be as few clicks as possible (like you know, one click ideally). In our queue, you select your character (one in single match; three characters in team battle) BEFORE you're in the queue so you never have to wait around on other people selecting characters. And we give one-click short cut to enter each queue with last character and costume color you picked, so you can get in the queue even quicker. Two clicks and you're in both queues at the same time. We also feel like fighting games have generally dropped the ball on UI involved with playing a single, specific friend. It's pretty weird to have to create a lobby, deal with lobby rules, passwords, invites, moving your avatar around in seats, etc just to do that. In Fantasy Strike, you have an in-game friends list and with one click, you challenge anyone. If they accept, you're put in the same flow as if they sat next to you in the same room and you did local versus. Also, with one click from the friends menu, you can instantly WATCH any friend play. In that spectating mode, you automatically follow them across all online games they play, whether it's casual, ranked, or friend matches. One click to spectate. We've never even heard of this in another fighting game. This stuff was not easy or cheap to develop. But it's VERY important. We completely agree with Sajam that the online experience really IS the experience of playing a fighting game, so the whole UI flow better be good and polished, and the netcode better be top-notch.
Now if the game was good and would not be something that doesn't appeal to anyone, that would've been amazing. Still props for at least making the online good.
@@KhamStronk I mean, I have a ton of fun with the game and it doesn't take long for queues to pop when I'm online and I'm seeing new names there every day.
yeah it sounds hard to fix the netcode, i dont even know anything about it so i cant talk but people just shouting "fix the netcode" like its easy is pretty annoying to see over and over again
Someone needs to make a shirt that says “fix the damm netcode” and everyone should be wearing it during every major tournament so this damm developers can actually see that we care about online play
That would make for an impressive, and I'll bet, *effective* demonstration. Just the point that it was written in Kanji would have a *lot* of impact. Not only that but I bet they would sell like *crazy!* I mean, talk about an heirloom of the FGC! :)
Right, it's a far more nuanced issue than Sajam lets on, I'm in the United States and play SFV and my games are lag free and out in the sticks, we don't have the best ISP. I think it's a combination of a lot of factors. (netcode, latency, ISP, router, interference, cross-play, lag switch use) Netcode is just one of them. I do agree that GGPO should be standard and I would still buy one of those shirts in a heartbeat!
@@kannon_bach Netcode quality is determined by how well it performs on low speed, high latency internet. If its only work on high level Internet like in Korea's or Japan's, then it's a bad netcode.
Thing is, everybody defends FG netcode, until they lose in a laggy ass match, and then all of a sudden everybody becomes DSP and your loss is no longer on you, but on the game itself. It's either one or the other folks... and there is only one correct answer to the problem.
i dont get many laggy matches. isnt lag a normal thing to have in online gaming tho? i thought everyone experiences lag in any online game every once in a while but it happens once every blue moon for me in fighting games
To the first argument about connections being fine in Japan. You argued that it was false, but even if it were true, it would still be a crap argument, because these Japanese developers are releasing these games into a global market. It's not like they are doing us a favor by releasing the games globally, and we just should take what we can get. NA/European sales often make up a very large percentage of Japanese game sales one thing comes to mind "Stockholm syndrome "
That is where I was thinking he was going with the argument, because it's the most logical response to the argument, rather than the "ur weeb Japan internet bad too" one he gave.
Boyzby Both of these responses are logical. The guy above challenges the premise that Japan is the only market worth paying attention to for globally released games and Sajam challenges the premise that the games function perfectly in Japan. Both rebuttals counter the argument by refuting one of the presuppositions.
Bringing up Smash in a netcode argument is the worst thing you can do. Smash has the most trash netplay to ever exist next to dark souls. Not to mention its awful ass practice mode and horrible lobby system. The Japanese devs aren't low on money. They're just stubborn and are too lazy to fix the bad QoL things.
+1 for the smash netcode issue lol. I was thinking that when watching the video. Its hell trying to be a competitive smash player with their wifi. I go to 2-3 locals a week [not rn ofc cuz corona, but normally], But there are many times you want to practice still when you're not at a local. 70% of your time at locals is spent waiting around for your next set or for the tourney to start, or for your turn in a friendlies rotation. You dont really get a ton of time to practice. So wifi ends up having to be a main source for a lot of people to get practice EVEN FOR offline players. So it really sucks for something like smash when the Wifi is so garbage you may as well not even bother. It especially sucks right now due to the cancellation of basically every local leaving wifi as our ONLY option to play. Shows just how bad the problem is.
Imagine saying good online hurts the FGC growth. Like ??? The biggest competitive games are mostly for payed online. League, DOTA, Counter-Strike, Rainbow 6, Rocket League, Fortnite. Wake up and smell the roses FGC. Embrace quality netplay.
It's a pretty bewildering statement. Some people will defend their beloved franchises, even against change that could help it, by any mental means necessary sometimes just because I guess the love is just that blinding.
These guys sound like they never played on that CRISP GGPO NETCODE. Crazy that we need several talks about netcode in the same week & people are still defending the bad netcode.
@@suspecthalo it's a form of rollback netcode that some FGs use. KI & Skullgirls are just a couple examples. You can easily read more about it by searching it online! There's a wiki listing games using GGPO. Sadly, it's a small list. If you ever get the chance to play one of those games online you should try it out. It is very different than an Japanese fighting game online.
If Fightcade can give me crispy matches where my 170 ms match feels like a 70 ms match with GGPO than you know its all bullshit. FC is a free project funded by donations. Unless there are mechanical/software reasons why GGPO cannot be implemented into a specific game there is ZERO excuse.
@@THE_BASED_GOD everytime I play this one friend of mine in sfv, it's a complete trashfire, laggy af. We go over to fightcade to play something else and it's hella smooth.
Thems Fighting Herds uses the same engine as SkullGirls, which has ggpo built into it. Mane6 added the online avatar lobby system but for the most part it's the same as SG.
I think part of the issue with this statement is that it assumes netcode is something separate from the games foundation. If a game is built with GGPO in mind, then yes, implementing it is simple. And before you rage, this is NOT an excuse for these companies. But games like Tekken and Street Fighter have been around for decades and kind of just created a netcode at some point because it could connect people. Those codes were probably crap, but the current games probably operate with those codes as the base. In these cases, same as with MKX, changing the netcode almost means rebuilding from the ground up. If you disagree with that you may not understand game coding. MKX and MK XL are literally not even the same game under the hood as far as net code is concerned. That said, it's an investment that is necessary. Having good netcode is likely part of what contributed the success and longevity of MK XL. Companies that won't do the work to rebuild their systems to improve netcode are only hurting themselves in my opinion.
I never play KI because the game is dead, but one time i decided to see for myself if the rumors about its online were true, after a while i got matched with a guy from the US, the match felt almost offline, by far the best connection i ever had in a FG, i live in the southest part of South America btw, meaning thousands of miles/km away. Meanwhile i get 19f of delay in DBFZ with half the people from my country, pretty sad tbh
@Cabp15 as i was saying, i live in south america and play on steam, sometimes i can wait up to 15m and no match will be found, i'm not saying dumb things.
@@RegularChimp Are you only playing in Ranked mode? For some reason the normal versus mode has crossplay, but they split up Ranked mode between the different versions.
So... if the netcodes don't work for Japan either... why not just swallow their pride and use GGPO? Skullgirls netplay is by far the best I've ever experienced. I live in SE Europe, and I had 60-90 ms ping with players from the USA (West coast), and my connection is 10/1 down/up-load Mb/s. Skullgirls uses the mentioned GGPO and blows every other fighting game's netplay out of the water.
@@thepassingstatic6268 Makes sense after listening to the talk from MaximilianDood about it. Well, Sega Japan failed because of poor business decisions and petty pride. One might think that a smart person would learn from others' and/or their own previous mistakes.
@@SeruraRenge11 l call bs on that, Tekken and GG along with many other games use Unreal Engine, which if you dont know, is made by a western company called Epic. There are simpler answer to this. Delay is much more cheaper and easier to implement than Rollback.
I'm 38 years old and every time I hear an old hat talk about going to locals and supporting scenes I just shake my head. I ran a scene for two years in a part of the world where FGs are super niche and we had more people wanting to play online than come to events. I've exhausted myself repeating the reasons why that happens so I'll spare you here. Scenes and locals are fun; so is online play. We live in a time when games can give us more than one option. If devs would rather go with the surefire ROI of giving the old hats what they want - tournaments, locals and cryptic gameplay - then I'll be here getting game after game after game on the smoother experience offered by indie and smaller studios.
All the excuses coming out'of the woodwork. Good work starting a conversation with these past 2 videos - could be a good sign of things to come. Keep it easy.
Looks like you've lit a fire Sajam. :) It's a good thing, being honest. Poking around and looking at this, this has come to be my understanding of the netcode situation: WARNING - I AM NO EXPERT. Literally just what I understand from the comments of others I am seeing such as Maximillian, James Chen, 6:45 and others. -You must build your game around rollback netcode, not implement it after the fact -The technology (rollback netcode, most famously utilized under the ggpo license) has been around for a while in the Western market -Japanese companies and work ethic usually strives to disregard any advances outside their own, save to mark when another company does something right and strive to "do better than that" -JP actually has next to *no* idea how rollback netcode works -Furthermore, the (modest) money, (decently hefty) time, (minimal) effort, and insult in hiring outside of JP has continued to push companies to not implement an already established and working source of netcode into their games
As an anime player, I can confirm all of this is nothing but the truth. It's like these developers go out of their way to make the netcode bad. Street Fighter 5 is practically unplayable online and the second worst netcode on a fighting game I play is on DBFZ. GGXRD had bad netcode too. Why is it that Skullgirls rarely had severe connection problems yet big companies struggle to make a stable connection consistent around the majority of matches?
"the player base just isnt there to justify robust features" i know alot of the fgc dont play other competitive games than fighting games , but these are basic features and are one of the main contributors to why fighting games arent popular i know this will make lot of people angry to say this but league has just as much of a problem with teaching new players the game but people stay and play anyway because its fun even while losing because the game is intuitive to understand , making it easier to understand how you messed up (things like seeing what kind of cc you get hit by while in fighting games you have no clue if you got hit high low or unblockable or grab , or even command grab) alot of people say starcraft died because it was hard but there are tons of awful sc2 players in bronze that cant do the basics at all , the game died because for a year straight the game was in a state of terrible balance with idiotic dev communication , followed by a terrible expansion that introduced the worst designed units into the game . and now that they fixed those problems alongside the f2p update the game is actually growing again crappy online , shitty dlc practices compared to literal f2p games, and a gatekeeping community are way bigger problems for fighting games than whether combos are too hard or not.
I agree with a lot of what you say, especially the first paragraph, the lack of these basic features definitely hurts our overral playerbase. I do think it's hard to compare it to league, or mobas in general, though. You picked two games that are probably the hardest to play and learn and, most importantly, are 1v1, fgs and sc2 are really complicated and crazy punishing to play online, even against ppl that are your rank. Mobas are really straight forward and the fact that you have 4 teammates there to take a beating with you make it so it doesn't hit as hard. (I do agree with your assessments regarding balance, dlc and other stuff, just the comparison I think is kinda weird)
yeah the gatekeeping i read sometimes is realy strange i mean there are people who say two things in the same sentence " we want our game to be bigger" and then "dont ask just git gud or stop playing"
The dlc practices complaint was always something that was never discussed about with fighting games because we're kinda use to cosmetic only stuff. Unlike EA, and other companies that use lootboxes. I have seen some more recent practices in fgs that raised my eyebrow like in game ads. However, outside of that, people don't care about that aspect because we buy dlc when we feel like it. It isn't necessary to enjoy the game or progress.
You pretty much said what I was going to type up in an essay xD FGs suffer from lacking in several elements that make games entertaining and engaging, primarily teaching you what's going on when you get steamrolled. The player experience in FGs, as much as I love the genre to death, is just atrocious and there's a good reason for that; devs are scared SHITLESS to do anything that would appear as though they are "dumbing down" the game. Even something small like increasing the buffer frames in SFV to make combos easier (one of the few smart things that game brought to the table) was met with disdain. I say this as a guy who has grown up with FGs for over two decades, I'm one of those "boomers" but I never had an arcade scene nor a tight-knit group to play with until a few years ago. Making a good FG isn't just about making it competitively sound but also a great player experience. If players have to jump through hoops to make their online work properly or need to find some external assistance to understand why Rashid can keep them in the corner indefinitely, then they will see their $60 as wasted and they will never pick up another FG ever. Not only does that keep the genre in indefinite niche status; it also shrinks it because people get older and have more responsibilities to deal with.
As one of the very few people who live in the middle of nowhere(cant attend events, too far, too much $$$) to make any name for themself in the FGC, online play is the most critical thing in a fighting game to me, and I assume it is for the vast amount of people who buy a fighting game. If I wanna play someone on my level offline I have to take a 5 hour train ride, which just isn't realistic. Without quality online play, you are basically telling me you have no interest in me playing your game. Its a goddamn shame that I have 3 major releases to look forward to next year (granblue, gg, kof15) and I basically think I will play the game for a month and drop it cause the online will be crap.
Im a tekken guy and i agree the netcode is just not up to snuff, we need to pressure these companies into getting the basics right. I played sfv for about 5 hours back in the day and could only get 2 matches (both 2 bar) and i just quit forever
So, they sell a $60 game with online matchmaking as their main selling point, but the netcode sucks? That's why I don't bought most of the fighting game on full price again
Interesting video. Watched the interview Max did with the one KI dev not too long ago and the KI dev pretty much comes down in exactly the same spot as Sajam: Netcode first, other shit later
Good netcode was a problem that was SOLVED in 20th CENTURY. And people (as in developers) did not learn. They keep reinventing their own shitty bikes (Now With Square Wheels ! (TM)) in perpetuity.
Hey, nice videos (this and the original that spawned this one). Here's a suggestion for a video that I think would be a nice follow-up to this: make a video focused on fighting games that do get these things right and give them a shoutout (I know you mentioned a few throughout, but a separate video I feel would still work best).
“NrS HaS SO MuCH MONey” y’all realize NRS built mk up from a dead series. Midway games literally went bankrupt selling Mk. Mk is at the point it is now is because of all the hard work and all the content (good single player and good online content) NRS has put into their games. This isn’t rocket science.
top 10 anime accounts and that’s a problem. But it also has robust single player content. Smash is also a party game that doesn’t focus on online play. Nintendo barely has online features. Which is also a problem
top 10 anime accounts I agree, that was the point of my original comment. People act like because NRS has money that’s only reason they put in features. It’s the other way around nrs put in features which made them more money
I get the impression that these "developers" contacting you perhaps have never looked into it or are not actually developers. As a developer for applications, often times red tape and manglement gets in the way more than anything else. There's too many successful examples out there (a lot of Indie titles) that demonstrate jaw-dropping improvement that these excuses just don't fly anymore. It can only come from ignorance and just never having tried any of these prime examples with a known quality of connections and distances. You can pick someone 2500 miles away, play 3 different games and see that the game play is great in one game with good netcode, and unplayable in the other games with delay based or bad netcode.
"I know that asking for ALL of that is unreasonable..." Except it's not SF and Tekken are damn near THIRTY years old. This is basic day one shit. Battered Wives be making too many excuses for the amount of black eyes.
I say this as someone that adores Japanese game development and always have: I do believe a percentage of devs within the scene have a bad habit of existing in these vacuums when it comes to improving systematic things, especially once a game or a series is successful or gains a following and they get more comfortable with the routine. I don't know if its a sentiment of feeling like they don't need to fix it if it aint broken (but aint broken translating to bare minimally functioning in this case.), or something else but as long as the "personality" of a game is still a hit they just won't budge. Especially when it comes to online anything. Hell sometimes I wonder if often it's even done not for malicious or lazy reasons, but sometimes out of plain ignorance because the vacuum is just that strong. It's so bizarre, they can be so insanely innovative when it comes to game design in some ways but then be so surprisingly complacent in other ways. So yeah, make it known or they just won't budge. Its the only way to pierce that vacuum sometimes and blind brand loyalty only thickens that vacuum for them. None of the excuses Sajam had to respond to here hold water.
If the company doesn't have the money to develop good netcode, then they don't have the money to make a fighting game. Period. "We can make pretty pictures punch each other, but unfortunately nobody plays these things so we can't afford to allow you to play against other players online. You guys aren't plentiful enough to matter." If that doesn't sound like bullshit to you, get your head checked.
As a niche genre, developers cannot afford to skip good netcode. Every player lost from bad matches will only hurt worse. And thanks for the fantasystrike shoutout.
When I ask Fighting Ex Layer for GGPO they just say its not possible and dont talk about it.And developers dont care if that means pay more people to do it.
Don't let your evil twin Jiyuna hear this. Dunno if anyone noticed, but the man is a bit of a w**b so he might slash you with his glorious nippon wasabi grater.
The playerbase for fighting games is absolutely pathetic, BUT IT'S LIKE THAT BECAUSE THE ONLINE IS FUCKING UNPLAYABLE. I have no idea how SFV and DBFZ has as many players as it does while being borderline unplayable online. I have quit BOTH of those games because of it. Imagine how huge the playerbase would be if you went online, and it actually worked. These big studios are fucking the whole industry over because who wants to have to Google which games are playable online, and then try to find the number of players before actually buying the game. I've essentially resigned playing online all fighting games. Games are supposed to be fun, and this is just a hassle. If I pay for something, I just want it to fucking work. Yet these devs can't meet our bare minimum expectations. Fighting game playerbases are laughable at best, and the developers are to blame.
Im still very excited about Guilty gear 2020 but im at the point where if that netcode isnt excellent, im not gonna buy it. Its like my most anticipated game of 2020 and theres a large chance that if I buy it im gonna have a bad time. Im not even on wifi either.
I agree. It's absolutely inexcusable that characterized global avatar lobbys are taking precedence over the basic importance having great netcode in this day and age. As much as we love and want to support these games, when the basic standards are not being met you have to let these companies know they have to do better. The quickest way is to tell them through the wallet, but also take every opportunity to give feedback where devs and companies ask for what they can do to further improve their games. The "Everything is fine" attitude only stagnates the base and lowers the standard for all fighting games to not take what players deem as essential quality of life elements into consideration. I shouldn't have buddies I play with whom I get 3-4f delay at best on guilty gear but have no interruptions or skips with on skullgirls or 3S.
If you can play Skullgirls, MK, INJ or anything off Fightcade with someone across the Atlantic (like say South Africa to Mexico) literally underwater and have the matches be "yeah, this is kinda ok", then I don't see why other fighting games can't do it too. Meanwhile I'm here struggling to get decent UNIST matches with people who don't live in my building.
10:18 I think what he was getting at is the idea of companies making games built around the idea of being solely played online. Like when Capcom justified the 8Fs of delay by saying it was to blur the line between playing offline and on, so that you can have a seamless, and consistent experience no matter where you play.
Developers should only really start developing a game when the title itself has sold 1 million copies MINIMUM If not enough people buy it, why make it anyway? 🤔
I watch Maximilian Dood and he had a video where he's talking about a mindset in Japan called "NMH: Not Manufactured Here" or something along those lines. It's a thought process that goes something like "It's not made here so we don't want to use it." It's one of the most short-sighted viewpoints a fighting game developer could have and it's probably THE reason that SFV's rollback was developed by Capcom and wasn't implemented well.
@oceanfromblue what? clients aren't sending literal 3D models, it's just positional data on hitboxes and hurtboxes, rollback netcode by design is prediction based, meaning the rendering is all done client side (same is true for delay based, or any networking really). both sprite based games and 2.5d games all have this same information. really, the bigger thing is how fast a game is in determining whether or not it is "hard" to put rollback netcode in, whatever that means. also, rollback is essentially the same tech that all FPS games use for netplay, and those games haven't had an issue being fully 3D either (and actually transmitting fully 3D data, unlike 2.5D games which still use 2D hitboxes/hurtboxes) . furthermore, the point is that one guy, in his spare time, built rollback netcode for a 15 year old game by reading blogs, so it shouldn't be a "money issue" for a goddamn triple A developer to make some good netplay.
@oceanfromblue you might have some of the right ideas. but it's not really about "so much going on," the netcode doesn't care about all that fancy graphics. it just sends over inputs to the other players. the real issue is creating rollbacks, and likely why MKX had to rebuild the engine for it. i'm guessing a lot of it has to do with interpolated animation, and there not being fixed states or keyframes you can rollback to in most 2.5d games. mikez said they had to rebuild skullgirls to be "state-driven," supposedly meaning allowing their game to be able to snap back to different states in the case of a rollback. although does beg the question as to how a guy was able to hack in rollback when it seems you need to "build from the ground up."
People have an absurd need to defend their game like that makes them apreciatte the game more than the people who critic said game , if you critic the game you basicly are improving the game for future iteration and sequels, leave the excuses for the developers who often come up with the most ridiculous reason to explain their failures and waste your money with half baked product.
Glad you made a video about this. As I fighting game fan I can't defend bad netcode, and people who do defend it need to realize that fartnite is the most popular game right and is a online required game and has better netcode, and I don't even like the game.
I am barely playing any fightning games but similar argument was made few years ago by community in Path of Exile (online arpg) which has suffered from a fairly poor netcode aswell. Fanbois were defending extremely bad online experience and developers to the death. It was like watching a massive influx of people affected by stockholm syndrome. "They don't have enough money" and "Its your internet's fault" were the most common defender talk points. Eventually the outcry of the whole community about this issue became so big the defending fanbois became extreme minority in the discussion. And then, unthinkable and presumably not possible happened - they have fixed the netcode in the span of couple of months. The online experience did not became absolutely 100% stable and consistent, but it went from being pretty horrible to acceptable. The point of this story is that developer makes a shitty netcode because they know they can do it at the time being. It is always about the amount the bullshit player is going to accept before he refuses to play/buy the game. Regardless of genre or game, developer will fix complicated issues only when the community forces them to. They can do it, but they won't - it is all about the money. Money not spent are money saved.
SFV is a prime example of the genres problems because it failed to surpass them on all fronts. Capcom ignored single player for multiplayer, not the best idea, but it became the worst idea, because the result is one of the worst netcodes in the genre on top of that. SF along with MK are the flagship titles for the genre, so if developers won't pay attention to why the biggest games in the genre are succeeding, or failing it's hopeless.
@@happycat4838 kirby is a fighting game... Kinda. It has comand normals and quarter circle specials plus some charge attacks lol well Castlevania does too and it doesn't mean it's a fighting game but the similarities in controls are there
As someone who's wanted to be competitive in fighting games but lives in the middle of no where... you are doing gods work with these videos Sajam. Good online would be godsend. I've played mostly other genre's for many years now but I wanna play more fighting games.
Been 2 years, companies are getting better now but user experience still needs some work. Most people now don't care about a fighting game without rollback so we got that but having good lobbies and ways to rematch along with decent ui and menus. We also mostly have a training mode on fighting games too I mean it's not hard. Some don't have all the features you may want like hotboxes and frame data but it's a process. We have other resources for that so I'm not too made as I can still practice my execution when I want. I don't want to be complacent, I still want all these things to be improved even more but there is a clear effort to do something now.
Them's Fightin' Herds has ALL of these things and people won't play it because of the aesthetic. I think you might have to add another point to that chart.
@@THE_BASED_GOD I think this is a bad argument, aesthetic is hella important, I won't play mvci because I don't care for the aesthetic, it contributes to the "bad feeling" of the game as I play it.
Bro I live in Japan and have fantastic internet. Before I basically quit SFV, I had laggy matches about half of the time. The lounges were almost lagless but CFN matches were trash half the time. Although Monster Hunter: World isn't a fighting game but it has excellent online play here and abroad, so SFV and other fighting games are the problem. Japanese internet is super good but if your game has trash netcode then it barely matters.
It's blowing my mind how many people are coming up with excuses for these things especially the netcode. It honestly seems like a complete lack of knowledge on the subject as much as it is the willingness to accept functionaly mediocre at best games.
"The ROI on these features just isn't there" This is so crazy to me. It's very much "cart before the horse" thinking. I feel like, if your series is known for having robust features that make getting into and sticking with a game will bring your franchise more players over time. Am I a crazy idealist to think that? Maybe I was when this video was created, but I think the age of COVID is slamming home some harsh realities to fighting game developers. You can't squeak by with poor online experience anymore
I feel like one of the reasons Smash continuously have terrible netcode is because they know that smash fans will buy their game regardless of how bad the netcode is. The devs are playing the smash community like a fiddle. With smash, as long as they add in fan favorite characters, people wont care about how bad the netcode is / online experience in general or the lack of a ranked mode or the fact that the training mode is horrendous. Stop defending shitty practices.
Touhou 12.3 has rollback netcode and it's entire online is basically just a fan mod.
5 лет назад
As a result to your video yesterday I ended up making a similar twitter post. Albeit it was sporadic and not as well spoken but I felt like I should’ve brought it up. I’m gonna share this second video as well.
Some nobody: "The genre has been around for decades and only Smash has been able to reach a massive audience." Street Fighter (with its $12+ billion in revenue, with II alone having $10.6 of that) & Mortal Kombat (with its $3.2 billion in video game revenue and an extra $2.84 billion from merch, movies, etc): AM I A JOKE TO YOU?
I once heard a story of a employee making suggestions to his boss to upgrade the company. After explaining all the benefits and cost, the boss just asked if the company will die if they don't upgrade. Considering how much money Smash, DBFZ and other games made, I don't think any their developers are at risk of dying from poor netcode yet. Sure, you could argue that they could make more profit by investing in a good netcode but there is no guarantee and decisions makers are not so easily convinced. They are the ones taking the risk and doing all the work, not you. You think the developers haven't tried to push for good netcode and got asked if the game would fail without it? You can complain and demand all you want but as long as you buy their games regardless of netcode, you are not convincing any decision maker. I can also assure you that calling them stupid gets you nowhere. Btw, I'm not defending devs, I'm just pointing out a way to influence the decision makers that have goals that may not align with you.
Definitely agree with this. Sfv netcode is atrocious. It ruins the entire experience with the trash netcode, because I wont even risk doing certain combos if a connection is unstable, because too many times the lag makes hitting certain combos impossible, and you drop them only to get punished hard for something you wouldn't have dropped had the connection been stable. It's a shame Capcom has made so much money off the endless costumes, season passes, stages, etc... and they cant even fix their terrible netcode. It's sad.
The comparison at 12:25 is really shocking. Who wants to pay 60€/$ for the average japanese fighting game when you can go for the trendy game that is either free to play or costs much cheaper and has way better features. It's really no wonder why most people don't wanna bother with fighting games. Do we want to talk about the PC ports coming much later than the console versions, leaving PC players completely behind and get pissed? Not only japanese companies sell games that are a niche of a niche for so much, but they don't even bother working on good features, it's so crazy.
Imo the most annoying excuse is that shitty netcode inversely promotes locals and that having good online play will make it so people no longer want go to their locals. You can call me greedy or whatever, but I wanna live in a world with great locals and great netcode.
the response I hate is "Lol, don't play online, go play at a tournament or play with friends irl" as if that's a defense or an option people have
You have to leave your house, go find a venue, pay for that venue, just to have a normal fighting game experience after you paid $60 for the game. God forbid your local doesn't have a scene for your game of choice lol
@@OseiTheWarriors god forbid you don't even have a local in the first place
@@andrew9k424 "STaRt yOUr OwN"
@@ultrainstinctroshi7315 "Solve our problems for us"
@@OseiTheWarriors you'd be pretty hard pressed to find people in my town who even know what a "Guilty Gear" is. I'm sure it works for big ass cities, not so much with smaller places
The amount of times I've seen a 30+ year old man post "Just go to your locals tho stop complaining" is dumbfounding. Fgc boomers are an actual thing
35 year old here. I have a local within walking distance of my house. Haven't been once in 5 years. No time in my life for that. Without online I'd never play fighters.
It's so absurd, I'm from a small town in Brazil, the nearest local to me is in fucking Peru. It's like they think US is the only place in the world that plays fgs. Not to mention that most places in the US do not have locals.
Right? I'm in my 30s and in a big city, but my locals are at like 3pm on a weekday because the bulk of the community is young college kids and high school aged kids that want to play before curfew. Like damn, I have a kid and a job and things to do, can I just have functioning netcode so I can play an acceptable match with my friends who have all ended up spread out across a few states as our lives progressed? I'm not trying to be Daigo anymore, I'm trying to just use the product I purchased at this point.
43 year old here, been playing since 92 when I saw the first cab in our town in the back of our 7-11.
Net code needs to be good. Arcades just do not exist and gaming bars are too few and far between.
Ah 7-11. The unsung hero of the origin of the FGC. xD
"glorious nippon internet has been folded 1000 times" hahahaha
I had to see this phrase written to get the reference lol
@@andriy_tato what does it reference?
@@sklitterbeer106 it's the reference to the katana smithing technology. It is a widespread misconception that this thechnology gives katana its near mystical qualities although it it's not true. Basically Sajam comperes mystical Japanese internet to mystical Katana.
@@andriy_tato ahh thanks! I'm not weeb enough it seems xD
That tweet is so stupid saying companies would make better netcode if they made more money. The tweet even brings up smash. They must not have known smash has the worst netcode besides making hella money. We need to speak with our wallets and support devs that do it right. Let's hear more excuses though, definitely the way to go.
smash straight up doesn't have an online mode. anyone who endures this bullshit is deluded.
@@AbcDef-fs4rj ....??????? It literally has an online mode.
@@THE_BASED_GOD Naw, it doesn't. I go online and then I watch my opponent teleport around the map. Then I turn off the game :)
@@THE_BASED_GOD yeah sure if you call 1 stock 2min matches with items and 40frames of input lag an "online mode".
@@psyonicpanda Yeah so it has an online mode.
We agree that netcode is basically the top priority in the technical development of a fighting game. We spent years on developing and tuning the netcode for Fantasy Strike, which uses GGPO as well as our own tech. Our netcode is very, very good. In the Steam version (where you have more CPU power than consoles usually), it's actually the best we've seen. Seriously, try it.
We also agree that developers should be thinking about the online experience overall, even beyond netcode. The UI is very important. Getting in the casual or ranked queue should be as few clicks as possible (like you know, one click ideally). In our queue, you select your character (one in single match; three characters in team battle) BEFORE you're in the queue so you never have to wait around on other people selecting characters. And we give one-click short cut to enter each queue with last character and costume color you picked, so you can get in the queue even quicker. Two clicks and you're in both queues at the same time.
We also feel like fighting games have generally dropped the ball on UI involved with playing a single, specific friend. It's pretty weird to have to create a lobby, deal with lobby rules, passwords, invites, moving your avatar around in seats, etc just to do that. In Fantasy Strike, you have an in-game friends list and with one click, you challenge anyone. If they accept, you're put in the same flow as if they sat next to you in the same room and you did local versus.
Also, with one click from the friends menu, you can instantly WATCH any friend play. In that spectating mode, you automatically follow them across all online games they play, whether it's casual, ranked, or friend matches. One click to spectate. We've never even heard of this in another fighting game.
This stuff was not easy or cheap to develop. But it's VERY important. We completely agree with Sajam that the online experience really IS the experience of playing a fighting game, so the whole UI flow better be good and polished, and the netcode better be top-notch.
Now if the game was good and would not be something that doesn't appeal to anyone, that would've been amazing. Still props for at least making the online good.
@@KhamStronk I mean, I have a ton of fun with the game and it doesn't take long for queues to pop when I'm online and I'm seeing new names there every day.
@@KhamStronk Dude, that just means the game is not for you
No need to bash it.
That's one way to advertise your game. Still, it worked. Color me interested.
yeah it sounds hard to fix the netcode, i dont even know anything about it so i cant talk but people just shouting "fix the netcode" like its easy is pretty annoying to see over and over again
Someone needs to make a shirt that says “fix the damm netcode” and everyone should be wearing it during every major tournament so this damm developers can actually see that we care about online play
It should be in japanese, since it's mainly japanese developed fighting games that refuse to improve netcode.
@@HadoCS_ "The LATENCY IS TOO DAMN HIGH"
That would make for an impressive, and I'll bet, *effective* demonstration. Just the point that it was written in Kanji would have a *lot* of impact. Not only that but I bet they would sell like *crazy!* I mean, talk about an heirloom of the FGC! :)
Right, it's a far more nuanced issue than Sajam lets on, I'm in the United States and play SFV and my games are lag free and out in the sticks, we don't have the best ISP. I think it's a combination of a lot of factors. (netcode, latency, ISP, router, interference, cross-play, lag switch use) Netcode is just one of them. I do agree that GGPO should be standard and I would still buy one of those shirts in a heartbeat!
@@kannon_bach Netcode quality is determined by how well it performs on low speed, high latency internet. If its only work on high level Internet like in Korea's or Japan's, then it's a bad netcode.
Thing is, everybody defends FG netcode, until they lose in a laggy ass match, and then all of a sudden everybody becomes DSP and your loss is no longer on you, but on the game itself.
It's either one or the other folks... and there is only one correct answer to the problem.
Exactlyyyy. Problem is, he's making too much sense here and people can't grasp this concept lmao
Yep
i dont get many laggy matches. isnt lag a normal thing to have in online gaming tho? i thought everyone experiences lag in any online game every once in a while but it happens once every blue moon for me in fighting games
@@boblob3509 What fighting games are you playing online?
@@Davethawave1999 right now mk11, use to play a lot of sfv, played a bit of skullgirls and guilty gear
To the first argument about connections being fine in Japan. You argued that it was false, but even if it were true, it would still be a crap argument, because these Japanese developers are releasing these games into a global market. It's not like they are doing us a favor by releasing the games globally, and we just should take what we can get. NA/European sales often make up a very large percentage of Japanese game sales
one thing comes to mind "Stockholm syndrome
"
That is where I was thinking he was going with the argument, because it's the most logical response to the argument, rather than the "ur weeb Japan internet bad too" one he gave.
Boyzby
Both of these responses are logical. The guy above challenges the premise that Japan is the only market worth paying attention to for globally released games and Sajam challenges the premise that the games function perfectly in Japan. Both rebuttals counter the argument by refuting one of the presuppositions.
Bringing up Smash in a netcode argument is the worst thing you can do. Smash has the most trash netplay to ever exist next to dark souls. Not to mention its awful ass practice mode and horrible lobby system. The Japanese devs aren't low on money. They're just stubborn and are too lazy to fix the bad QoL things.
Your not wrong about smash's netcode at all it why I prefer to play at locals instead of online
+1 for the smash netcode issue lol. I was thinking that when watching the video.
Its hell trying to be a competitive smash player with their wifi. I go to 2-3 locals a week [not rn ofc cuz corona, but normally], But there are many times you want to practice still when you're not at a local. 70% of your time at locals is spent waiting around for your next set or for the tourney to start, or for your turn in a friendlies rotation. You dont really get a ton of time to practice. So wifi ends up having to be a main source for a lot of people to get practice EVEN FOR offline players. So it really sucks for something like smash when the Wifi is so garbage you may as well not even bother.
It especially sucks right now due to the cancellation of basically every local leaving wifi as our ONLY option to play. Shows just how bad the problem is.
@@eragon78 primary reason I dont buy the game.
hey listen, dont you ever compare that trash ass net play to souls online
Nintendo has TERRIBLE customer service
Imagine saying good online hurts the FGC growth.
Like ??? The biggest competitive games are mostly for payed online. League, DOTA, Counter-Strike, Rainbow 6, Rocket League, Fortnite.
Wake up and smell the roses FGC. Embrace quality netplay.
Also online also helps the new breed of fgc talent. At least in Tekken 20z boys get their notoriety in online, and actually delivered in tournament.
It's a pretty bewildering statement. Some people will defend their beloved franchises, even against change that could help it, by any mental means necessary sometimes just because I guess the love is just that blinding.
@@Kiyosuki
It was probably a dev that made that statement.
The fact that I get more consistent connection on wifi call of duty black ops 1, then on Street Fighter 5 with a wired connection is sad.
These guys sound like they never played on that CRISP GGPO NETCODE. Crazy that we need several talks about netcode in the same week & people are still defending the bad netcode.
What is GGPO? I keep hearing him talk about it, but this is the first time I've heard of it tbh.
@@suspecthalo it's a form of rollback netcode that some FGs use. KI & Skullgirls are just a couple examples. You can easily read more about it by searching it online! There's a wiki listing games using GGPO. Sadly, it's a small list. If you ever get the chance to play one of those games online you should try it out. It is very different than an Japanese fighting game online.
If Fightcade can give me crispy matches where my 170 ms match feels like a 70 ms match with GGPO than you know its all bullshit. FC is a free project funded by donations. Unless there are mechanical/software reasons why GGPO cannot be implemented into a specific game there is ZERO excuse.
@@THE_BASED_GOD everytime I play this one friend of mine in sfv, it's a complete trashfire, laggy af. We go over to fightcade to play something else and it's hella smooth.
Skullgirls is a cheap AF (as in price of course) fighting game that uses GGPO. The online is mostly dead but when you find someone, it’s pretty dope.
If these devs fix their net code, who am I gonna blame for my losses?
You can always blame your joystick
There's always the other player. They were spamming the same combo, clearly
My dpad is defective
Funny how the tweet mentions Smash is the only game to reach massive audiences but Smash has by a mile the worst netcode of them all
Wow so garbo 🤣🤣🤣
I love seeing my favorite hair talk to his monitor in the corner of the screen
hard to believe anyone could disagree
When you like a game, you'll say all sorts of dumb stuff to defend it
GGPO on Fantasy Strike and Thems Fighting Herds... it's not hard to have decent netcode.
Thems Fighting Herds uses the same engine as SkullGirls, which has ggpo built into it. Mane6 added the online avatar lobby system but for the most part it's the same as SG.
I think part of the issue with this statement is that it assumes netcode is something separate from the games foundation. If a game is built with GGPO in mind, then yes, implementing it is simple.
And before you rage, this is NOT an excuse for these companies.
But games like Tekken and Street Fighter have been around for decades and kind of just created a netcode at some point because it could connect people.
Those codes were probably crap, but the current games probably operate with those codes as the base. In these cases, same as with MKX, changing the netcode almost means rebuilding from the ground up. If you disagree with that you may not understand game coding.
MKX and MK XL are literally not even the same game under the hood as far as net code is concerned. That said, it's an investment that is necessary. Having good netcode is likely part of what contributed the success and longevity of MK XL.
Companies that won't do the work to rebuild their systems to improve netcode are only hurting themselves in my opinion.
@@Kintaku factz 💯💯
I never play KI because the game is dead, but one time i decided to see for myself if the rumors about its online were true, after a while i got matched with a guy from the US, the match felt almost offline, by far the best connection i ever had in a FG, i live in the southest part of South America btw, meaning thousands of miles/km away. Meanwhile i get 19f of delay in DBFZ with half the people from my country, pretty sad tbh
@Cabp15 as i was saying, i live in south america and play on steam, sometimes i can wait up to 15m and no match will be found, i'm not saying dumb things.
@@RegularChimp Are you only playing in Ranked mode? For some reason the normal versus mode has crossplay, but they split up Ranked mode between the different versions.
So... if the netcodes don't work for Japan either... why not just swallow their pride and use GGPO? Skullgirls netplay is by far the best I've ever experienced. I live in SE Europe, and I had 60-90 ms ping with players from the USA (West coast), and my connection is 10/1 down/up-load Mb/s. Skullgirls uses the mentioned GGPO and blows every other fighting game's netplay out of the water.
Gaijin technology, if they touch it their skin will burn like touching acid.
Because it didn't come from glorious Japan. If they didn't make it, they don't want anything to do with it
@@thepassingstatic6268 Makes sense after listening to the talk from MaximilianDood about it. Well, Sega Japan failed because of poor business decisions and petty pride. One might think that a smart person would learn from others' and/or their own previous mistakes.
@@RoadKamelot2nd No Sega Japan is still doing fine. Sega America failed because the guy in charge was a fucking idiot.
@@SeruraRenge11 l call bs on that, Tekken and GG along with many other games use Unreal Engine, which if you dont know, is made by a western company called Epic.
There are simpler answer to this. Delay is much more cheaper and easier to implement than Rollback.
I'm 38 years old and every time I hear an old hat talk about going to locals and supporting scenes I just shake my head. I ran a scene for two years in a part of the world where FGs are super niche and we had more people wanting to play online than come to events. I've exhausted myself repeating the reasons why that happens so I'll spare you here. Scenes and locals are fun; so is online play. We live in a time when games can give us more than one option. If devs would rather go with the surefire ROI of giving the old hats what they want - tournaments, locals and cryptic gameplay - then I'll be here getting game after game after game on the smoother experience offered by indie and smaller studios.
Look man if tekken had the best netcode everyone would be playing it and that wouldnt be fair to the other fighting games
Good guy Harada looking out for the FGC
I feel season 3 will bring better netcode
@@jasonsmith530 it doesn't work that way bro
Stealthblazer Games just a feeling but who knows! Mkx did it
@@jasonsmith530 4*
Online training mode should be a standard. Really tired of not being able to teach people without timers or health or anything.
Weeb lies. Killin me🤣
All the excuses coming out'of the woodwork.
Good work starting a conversation with these past 2 videos - could be a good sign of things to come.
Keep it easy.
I have a better online experience in Samurai Showdown 2 on Fightcade than in Samurai Showdown 6. That's sad.
Looks like you've lit a fire Sajam. :) It's a good thing, being honest. Poking around and looking at this, this has come to be my understanding of the netcode situation:
WARNING - I AM NO EXPERT. Literally just what I understand from the comments of others I am seeing such as Maximillian, James Chen, 6:45 and others.
-You must build your game around rollback netcode, not implement it after the fact
-The technology (rollback netcode, most famously utilized under the ggpo license) has been around for a while in the Western market
-Japanese companies and work ethic usually strives to disregard any advances outside their own, save to mark when another company does something right and strive to "do better than that"
-JP actually has next to *no* idea how rollback netcode works
-Furthermore, the (modest) money, (decently hefty) time, (minimal) effort, and insult in hiring outside of JP has continued to push companies to not implement an already established and working source of netcode into their games
As an anime player, I can confirm all of this is nothing but the truth. It's like these developers go out of their way to make the netcode bad. Street Fighter 5 is practically unplayable online and the second worst netcode on a fighting game I play is on DBFZ. GGXRD had bad netcode too. Why is it that Skullgirls rarely had severe connection problems yet big companies struggle to make a stable connection consistent around the majority of matches?
Because SkullGirls uses GGPO 😜
DBFZ feels okay to me compared to other delay based games tbh. Maybe I'm just lucky. Either way they still must implement rollback.
"the player base just isnt there to justify robust features"
i know alot of the fgc dont play other competitive games than fighting games , but these are basic features and are one of the main contributors to why fighting games arent popular
i know this will make lot of people angry to say this but league has just as much of a problem with teaching new players the game but people stay and play anyway because its fun even while losing because the game is intuitive to understand , making it easier to understand how you messed up (things like seeing what kind of cc you get hit by while in fighting games you have no clue if you got hit high low or unblockable or grab , or even command grab)
alot of people say starcraft died because it was hard but there are tons of awful sc2 players in bronze that cant do the basics at all , the game died because for a year straight the game was in a state of terrible balance with idiotic dev communication , followed by a terrible expansion that introduced the worst designed units into the game . and now that they fixed those problems alongside the f2p update the game is actually growing again
crappy online , shitty dlc practices compared to literal f2p games, and a gatekeeping community are way bigger problems for fighting games than whether combos are too hard or not.
I agree with a lot of what you say, especially the first paragraph, the lack of these basic features definitely hurts our overral playerbase.
I do think it's hard to compare it to league, or mobas in general, though. You picked two games that are probably the hardest to play and learn and, most importantly, are 1v1, fgs and sc2 are really complicated and crazy punishing to play online, even against ppl that are your rank.
Mobas are really straight forward and the fact that you have 4 teammates there to take a beating with you make it so it doesn't hit as hard.
(I do agree with your assessments regarding balance, dlc and other stuff, just the comparison I think is kinda weird)
yeah the gatekeeping i read sometimes is realy strange
i mean there are people who say two things in the same sentence " we want our game to be bigger" and then "dont ask just git gud or stop playing"
@jolteonstorm1
Which units in the expansion were bad? Just curious because I didn't know that was an issue.
The dlc practices complaint was always something that was never discussed about with fighting games because we're kinda use to cosmetic only stuff. Unlike EA, and other companies that use lootboxes. I have seen some more recent practices in fgs that raised my eyebrow like in game ads. However, outside of that, people don't care about that aspect because we buy dlc when we feel like it. It isn't necessary to enjoy the game or progress.
You pretty much said what I was going to type up in an essay xD FGs suffer from lacking in several elements that make games entertaining and engaging, primarily teaching you what's going on when you get steamrolled. The player experience in FGs, as much as I love the genre to death, is just atrocious and there's a good reason for that; devs are scared SHITLESS to do anything that would appear as though they are "dumbing down" the game. Even something small like increasing the buffer frames in SFV to make combos easier (one of the few smart things that game brought to the table) was met with disdain. I say this as a guy who has grown up with FGs for over two decades, I'm one of those "boomers" but I never had an arcade scene nor a tight-knit group to play with until a few years ago. Making a good FG isn't just about making it competitively sound but also a great player experience. If players have to jump through hoops to make their online work properly or need to find some external assistance to understand why Rashid can keep them in the corner indefinitely, then they will see their $60 as wasted and they will never pick up another FG ever. Not only does that keep the genre in indefinite niche status; it also shrinks it because people get older and have more responsibilities to deal with.
Comments in 2019 : If you want to play fighting games get out and go to your friend house , what will stop you?
2020 : Fuck! O_O
As one of the very few people who live in the middle of nowhere(cant attend events, too far, too much $$$) to make any name for themself in the FGC, online play is the most critical thing in a fighting game to me, and I assume it is for the vast amount of people who buy a fighting game. If I wanna play someone on my level offline I have to take a 5 hour train ride, which just isn't realistic. Without quality online play, you are basically telling me you have no interest in me playing your game. Its a goddamn shame that I have 3 major releases to look forward to next year (granblue, gg, kof15) and I basically think I will play the game for a month and drop it cause the online will be crap.
Im a tekken guy and i agree the netcode is just not up to snuff, we need to pressure these companies into getting the basics right. I played sfv for about 5 hours back in the day and could only get 2 matches (both 2 bar) and i just quit forever
I've been listening to the excuses people make and FG players sound like they're in an abusive relationship lol.
Fg?
@@Iamlewis93 fighting game
"You get used to the netcode when you get to know them better"
So, they sell a $60 game with online matchmaking as their main selling point, but the netcode sucks? That's why I don't bought most of the fighting game on full price again
Interesting video. Watched the interview Max did with the one KI dev not too long ago and the KI dev pretty much comes down in exactly the same spot as Sajam: Netcode first, other shit later
Good netcode was a problem that was SOLVED in 20th CENTURY.
And people (as in developers) did not learn.
They keep reinventing their own shitty bikes (Now With Square Wheels ! (TM)) in perpetuity.
Love the discussion you bring to the table. Keep it up
Thanks for talking about this Sajam, wake up the sheep please!
#SamSho #SNK should bring a notebook over here real quick...
Hey, nice videos (this and the original that spawned this one). Here's a suggestion for a video that I think would be a nice follow-up to this: make a video focused on fighting games that do get these things right and give them a shoutout (I know you mentioned a few throughout, but a separate video I feel would still work best).
Games like KI, Fantasy Strike, Skullgirls, Them's Fighting Herds are some good examples to start with.
MvCI too.
“NrS HaS SO MuCH MONey” y’all realize NRS built mk up from a dead series. Midway games literally went bankrupt selling Mk. Mk is at the point it is now is because of all the hard work and all the content (good single player and good online content) NRS has put into their games. This isn’t rocket science.
top 10 anime accounts and that’s a problem. But it also has robust single player content. Smash is also a party game that doesn’t focus on online play. Nintendo barely has online features. Which is also a problem
top 10 anime accounts I agree, that was the point of my original comment. People act like because NRS has money that’s only reason they put in features. It’s the other way around nrs put in features which made them more money
NRS also has the backing of Warner Bros
I get the impression that these "developers" contacting you perhaps have never looked into it or are not actually developers. As a developer for applications, often times red tape and manglement gets in the way more than anything else. There's too many successful examples out there (a lot of Indie titles) that demonstrate jaw-dropping improvement that these excuses just don't fly anymore. It can only come from ignorance and just never having tried any of these prime examples with a known quality of connections and distances. You can pick someone 2500 miles away, play 3 different games and see that the game play is great in one game with good netcode, and unplayable in the other games with delay based or bad netcode.
"I know that asking for ALL of that is unreasonable..."
Except it's not SF and Tekken are damn near THIRTY years old. This is basic day one shit. Battered Wives be making too many excuses for the amount of black eyes.
I say this as someone that adores Japanese game development and always have: I do believe a percentage of devs within the scene have a bad habit of existing in these vacuums when it comes to improving systematic things, especially once a game or a series is successful or gains a following and they get more comfortable with the routine. I don't know if its a sentiment of feeling like they don't need to fix it if it aint broken (but aint broken translating to bare minimally functioning in this case.), or something else but as long as the "personality" of a game is still a hit they just won't budge. Especially when it comes to online anything. Hell sometimes I wonder if often it's even done not for malicious or lazy reasons, but sometimes out of plain ignorance because the vacuum is just that strong.
It's so bizarre, they can be so insanely innovative when it comes to game design in some ways but then be so surprisingly complacent in other ways.
So yeah, make it known or they just won't budge. Its the only way to pierce that vacuum sometimes and blind brand loyalty only thickens that vacuum for them. None of the excuses Sajam had to respond to here hold water.
If the company doesn't have the money to develop good netcode, then they don't have the money to make a fighting game. Period.
"We can make pretty pictures punch each other, but unfortunately nobody plays these things so we can't afford to allow you to play against other players online. You guys aren't plentiful enough to matter."
If that doesn't sound like bullshit to you, get your head checked.
As a niche genre, developers cannot afford to skip good netcode. Every player lost from bad matches will only hurt worse.
And thanks for the fantasystrike shoutout.
When I ask Fighting Ex Layer for GGPO they just say its not possible and dont talk about it.And developers dont care if that means pay more people to do it.
Don't let your evil twin Jiyuna hear this. Dunno if anyone noticed, but the man is a bit of a w**b so he might slash you with his glorious nippon wasabi grater.
cringe
The playerbase for fighting games is absolutely pathetic, BUT IT'S LIKE THAT BECAUSE THE ONLINE IS FUCKING UNPLAYABLE. I have no idea how SFV and DBFZ has as many players as it does while being borderline unplayable online. I have quit BOTH of those games because of it. Imagine how huge the playerbase would be if you went online, and it actually worked. These big studios are fucking the whole industry over because who wants to have to Google which games are playable online, and then try to find the number of players before actually buying the game. I've essentially resigned playing online all fighting games. Games are supposed to be fun, and this is just a hassle. If I pay for something, I just want it to fucking work. Yet these devs can't meet our bare minimum expectations. Fighting game playerbases are laughable at best, and the developers are to blame.
"Just drive 2 hours to play someone in a fighting game looooool"
Im still very excited about Guilty gear 2020 but im at the point where if that netcode isnt excellent, im not gonna buy it. Its like my most anticipated game of 2020 and theres a large chance that if I buy it im gonna have a bad time. Im not even on wifi either.
I agree. It's absolutely inexcusable that characterized global avatar lobbys are taking precedence over the basic importance having great netcode in this day and age. As much as we love and want to support these games, when the basic standards are not being met you have to let these companies know they have to do better. The quickest way is to tell them through the wallet, but also take every opportunity to give feedback where devs and companies ask for what they can do to further improve their games. The "Everything is fine" attitude only stagnates the base and lowers the standard for all fighting games to not take what players deem as essential quality of life elements into consideration. I shouldn't have buddies I play with whom I get 3-4f delay at best on guilty gear but have no interruptions or skips with on skullgirls or 3S.
I want to get into Guilty Gear, but I've heard enough horror stories about the netcode that I don't think I'll get in unless that gets improved.
@Soel Moertl So did you get the new Guilty Gear?
@@kadelefox8946 all my prayers led to Kof15 and GG getting rollback. I am very happy
If you can play Skullgirls, MK, INJ or anything off Fightcade with someone across the Atlantic (like say South Africa to Mexico) literally underwater and have the matches be "yeah, this is kinda ok", then I don't see why other fighting games can't do it too.
Meanwhile I'm here struggling to get decent UNIST matches with people who don't live in my building.
We just need to get Sajam the position of lead producer on his own game.
Nah you was right. Some devs need to get their shit together. I dont get why people pretend shit they like is flawless.
Consumers tend to indentify with the products they consume, and take any criticisms against the product as attacks on themselves.
10:18 I think what he was getting at is the idea of companies making games built around the idea of being solely played online. Like when Capcom justified the 8Fs of delay by saying it was to blur the line between playing offline and on, so that you can have a seamless, and consistent experience no matter where you play.
"Weeb Lies. These are Weeb Lies you're telling yourself"
God damn that shit made me laugh.
NAMCO'S IN HOUSE FIGHTING NETCODE IS TRASH
I live in a third world country called Honduras and I used to play fine before I stopped playing sf5 and moved to other games
Developers should only really start developing a game when the title itself has sold 1 million copies MINIMUM
If not enough people buy it, why make it anyway? 🤔
I watch Maximilian Dood and he had a video where he's talking about a mindset in Japan called "NMH: Not Manufactured Here" or something along those lines. It's a thought process that goes something like "It's not made here so we don't want to use it." It's one of the most short-sighted viewpoints a fighting game developer could have and it's probably THE reason that SFV's rollback was developed by Capcom and wasn't implemented well.
2:16 oddly specific example there Sajam...
Another important thing that more games need? Legacy Stick Support
Please. Just let me use my controller.
CCCaster is a perfect example of why good netcode isn't a money issue.
@oceanfromblue what? clients aren't sending literal 3D models, it's just positional data on hitboxes and hurtboxes, rollback netcode by design is prediction based, meaning the rendering is all done client side (same is true for delay based, or any networking really). both sprite based games and 2.5d games all have this same information. really, the bigger thing is how fast a game is in determining whether or not it is "hard" to put rollback netcode in, whatever that means. also, rollback is essentially the same tech that all FPS games use for netplay, and those games haven't had an issue being fully 3D either (and actually transmitting fully 3D data, unlike 2.5D games which still use 2D hitboxes/hurtboxes) . furthermore, the point is that one guy, in his spare time, built rollback netcode for a 15 year old game by reading blogs, so it shouldn't be a "money issue" for a goddamn triple A developer to make some good netplay.
actually, i'm way overstating it. fighting games are deterministic, meaning you literally only need to send inputs. does not matter if it is 2d or 3d.
@oceanfromblue you might have some of the right ideas. but it's not really about "so much going on," the netcode doesn't care about all that fancy graphics. it just sends over inputs to the other players. the real issue is creating rollbacks, and likely why MKX had to rebuild the engine for it. i'm guessing a lot of it has to do with interpolated animation, and there not being fixed states or keyframes you can rollback to in most 2.5d games. mikez said they had to rebuild skullgirls to be "state-driven," supposedly meaning allowing their game to be able to snap back to different states in the case of a rollback. although does beg the question as to how a guy was able to hack in rollback when it seems you need to "build from the ground up."
People have an absurd need to defend their game like that makes them apreciatte the game more than the people who critic said game , if you critic the game you basicly are improving the game for future iteration and sequels, leave the excuses for the developers who often come up with the most ridiculous reason to explain their failures and waste your money with half baked product.
Glad you made a video about this. As I fighting game fan I can't defend bad netcode, and people who do defend it need to realize that fartnite is the most popular game right and is a online required game and has better netcode, and I don't even like the game.
I am barely playing any fightning games but similar argument was made few years ago by community in Path of Exile (online arpg) which has suffered from a fairly poor netcode aswell.
Fanbois were defending extremely bad online experience and developers to the death. It was like watching a massive influx of people affected by stockholm syndrome. "They don't have enough money" and "Its your internet's fault" were the most common defender talk points.
Eventually the outcry of the whole community about this issue became so big the defending fanbois became extreme minority in the discussion.
And then, unthinkable and presumably not possible happened - they have fixed the netcode in the span of couple of months. The online experience did not became absolutely 100% stable and consistent, but it went from being pretty horrible to acceptable.
The point of this story is that developer makes a shitty netcode because they know they can do it at the time being. It is always about the amount the bullshit player is going to accept before he refuses to play/buy the game. Regardless of genre or game, developer will fix complicated issues only when the community forces them to. They can do it, but they won't - it is all about the money. Money not spent are money saved.
SFV is a prime example of the genres problems because it failed to surpass them on all fronts. Capcom ignored single player for multiplayer, not the best idea, but it became the worst idea, because the result is one of the worst netcodes in the genre on top of that. SF along with MK are the flagship titles for the genre, so if developers won't pay attention to why the biggest games in the genre are succeeding, or failing it's hopeless.
Kirby just sells 2 million per game it doesn't deserve to have a final boss or boss rush and after-game
Still sells more than most fighters lmfao
@@happycat4838 kirby is a fighting game... Kinda. It has comand normals and quarter circle specials plus some charge attacks lol well Castlevania does too and it doesn't mean it's a fighting game but the similarities in controls are there
I love telling my friends Japan is about the size of California everytime I complain about delay based netcode.
As someone who's wanted to be competitive in fighting games but lives in the middle of no where... you are doing gods work with these videos Sajam. Good online would be godsend. I've played mostly other genre's for many years now but I wanna play more fighting games.
2:15 I never caught this "unless they're downloading some crazy-ass fuckin pictures of I-No" until I bought Strive to main I-No.
What a difference a year makes, huh? 🙃
Sajim is the hero we need but don't deserve ;_; (and I love ASW)
Been 2 years, companies are getting better now but user experience still needs some work. Most people now don't care about a fighting game without rollback so we got that but having good lobbies and ways to rematch along with decent ui and menus. We also mostly have a training mode on fighting games too I mean it's not hard. Some don't have all the features you may want like hotboxes and frame data but it's a process. We have other resources for that so I'm not too made as I can still practice my execution when I want. I don't want to be complacent, I still want all these things to be improved even more but there is a clear effort to do something now.
Social media is 99% stupid, in a nutshell. Well put, Sajam!
People on the internet still defending JP devs, thats the least we can demand
Them's Fightin' Herds has ALL of these things and people won't play it because of the aesthetic. I think you might have to add another point to that chart.
@@JinTheAceStar Maybe stop being a fucking child and play a game for the gameplay.
@@THE_BASED_GOD I think this is a bad argument, aesthetic is hella important, I won't play mvci because I don't care for the aesthetic, it contributes to the "bad feeling" of the game as I play it.
That aris jab at the end got me good
God bless Fizzi for blessing the Melee community with goated netcode
5:52 who is the Toyota equivalent of fighting game developers?
Bro I live in Japan and have fantastic internet. Before I basically quit SFV, I had laggy matches about half of the time. The lounges were almost lagless but CFN matches were trash half the time. Although Monster Hunter: World isn't a fighting game but it has excellent online play here and abroad, so SFV and other fighting games are the problem. Japanese internet is super good but if your game has trash netcode then it barely matters.
Conclusion, all the counter arguments are ignorant. And everyone not compaigning for better online is working against the fgc.
It's blowing my mind how many people are coming up with excuses for these things especially the netcode. It honestly seems like a complete lack of knowledge on the subject as much as it is the willingness to accept functionaly mediocre at best games.
Lmao the sarcasm is hilarious! 😂......but then tutorials you said you were gonna make tho 👀
"The ROI on these features just isn't there"
This is so crazy to me. It's very much "cart before the horse" thinking. I feel like, if your series is known for having robust features that make getting into and sticking with a game will bring your franchise more players over time. Am I a crazy idealist to think that? Maybe I was when this video was created, but I think the age of COVID is slamming home some harsh realities to fighting game developers. You can't squeak by with poor online experience anymore
I feel like one of the reasons Smash continuously have terrible netcode is because they know that smash fans will buy their game regardless of how bad the netcode is. The devs are playing the smash community like a fiddle. With smash, as long as they add in fan favorite characters, people wont care about how bad the netcode is / online experience in general or the lack of a ranked mode or the fact that the training mode is horrendous. Stop defending shitty practices.
That and it is still played as a party game more often
Hmm, maybe the genre is niche because people get frustrated with crappy functionality in a game that is difficult to master?
More than anything it's about complaining so that the devs might in some blessed scenario actually try to put in good rollback at the very least
Glad to see this topic getting more attention
"Weeb lies" caught me offguard hard
Preach Prof. Sajam! Preach!
Touhou 12.3 has rollback netcode and it's entire online is basically just a fan mod.
As a result to your video yesterday I ended up making a similar twitter post. Albeit it was sporadic and not as well spoken but I felt like I should’ve brought it up. I’m gonna share this second video as well.
Some nobody: "The genre has been around for decades and only Smash has been able to reach a massive audience."
Street Fighter (with its $12+ billion in revenue, with II alone having $10.6 of that) & Mortal Kombat (with its $3.2 billion in video game revenue and an extra $2.84 billion from merch, movies, etc): AM I A JOKE TO YOU?
I once heard a story of a employee making suggestions to his boss to upgrade the company. After explaining all the benefits and cost, the boss just asked if the company will die if they don't upgrade. Considering how much money Smash, DBFZ and other games made, I don't think any their developers are at risk of dying from poor netcode yet. Sure, you could argue that they could make more profit by investing in a good netcode but there is no guarantee and decisions makers are not so easily convinced. They are the ones taking the risk and doing all the work, not you. You think the developers haven't tried to push for good netcode and got asked if the game would fail without it? You can complain and demand all you want but as long as you buy their games regardless of netcode, you are not convincing any decision maker. I can also assure you that calling them stupid gets you nowhere.
Btw, I'm not defending devs, I'm just pointing out a way to influence the decision makers that have goals that may not align with you.
I work extremely late hours and sleep during the day. I literally do not have time or a locals to go to that supports my schedule.
This needs to be a gdc talk
Definitely agree with this. Sfv netcode is atrocious. It ruins the entire experience with the trash netcode, because I wont even risk doing certain combos if a connection is unstable, because too many times the lag makes hitting certain combos impossible, and you drop them only to get punished hard for something you wouldn't have dropped had the connection been stable. It's a shame Capcom has made so much money off the endless costumes, season passes, stages, etc... and they cant even fix their terrible netcode. It's sad.
The comparison at 12:25 is really shocking. Who wants to pay 60€/$ for the average japanese fighting game when you can go for the trendy game that is either free to play or costs much cheaper and has way better features. It's really no wonder why most people don't wanna bother with fighting games. Do we want to talk about the PC ports coming much later than the console versions, leaving PC players completely behind and get pissed? Not only japanese companies sell games that are a niche of a niche for so much, but they don't even bother working on good features, it's so crazy.
BFTG has:
1- Tutorial
2- Trainning
3- Good GGPO
Lacks:
1- lobbies / re-match
2 - wide huge roster
Are you playing it?
Imo the most annoying excuse is that shitty netcode inversely promotes locals and that having good online play will make it so people no longer want go to their locals.
You can call me greedy or whatever, but I wanna live in a world with great locals and great netcode.