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4 Things I LIKE About Buu...4 Things I HATE About Cell...
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2020
- Today we talk about #DragonBallZ and the things we like about Buu and the things we about Cell in their respective story arcs and sagas. Whilst Perfect Cell is one of our favourite characters in #DragonBall we do admit that he does have his times when his story is quite weird or not to our liking. At the same time, Majin Buu and his development had some moments which stood out and were enjoyable - including Ultimate Gohan which set about his time in #DragonBallSuper - let's discuss!
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This video is about the 4 Things I LIKE About Buu and the 4 Things I HATE About Cell...
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Thanks for watching! Be sure to like, share and enjoy what we think about Buu and Cell. Let us know if you agree.
Greetings, Mister Lawrence "MasakoX" Simpson
This is extremely accurate Masako, while the Buu Saga could have gave Gohan more moments the Cell saga really feels like the Androids have more potential. I always wanted more of Gero and his creations especially after 21. So many of them have similar features and designs as if Gero had specific inspirations, as if his Robo squad was derived from his family and friends....Trucker Brother?!?
Hey could you do what if vegeta and goku landed on earth together and they were the same age I know u prob get this a lot but could you pleas?
Who the hell is “Haverock”?
Omg. Perfect idea.
What if...
Dabura was in the tournament of power. Or to start off what if dabura lived
Cell: I thought I was your favorite Masako, but you deemed me imperfect! All for the sake of candy!
I've got to be fair and admit that sometimes things aren't...perfect.
@@MasakoXKrillin in the background: Haaaa😂
@@WolfeGlowson Cell: "Oh don't YOU start. You want me to kick you again?"
@@squintyeyedkidjr9625 stop using tfs references
@@bigbua6339 HA!
What I like in the Frieza Arc: Goku going Super Sayian
What I didn't like in the Frieza Arc: The whole "Wait for Goku" thing consistently being used.
What I liked in the Cell Arc: Gohan's Super Sayian 2
What I didn't like in the Cell Arc: Like MasakoX said, the Power Creep.
What I liked about Buu: Goku and Vegeta's relation and Vegeta's final steps to becoming a good guy
What I didn't like about Buu: Buu dragging out longer than he needed to be without really doing much with it.
Here's a question.
How would you alter each saga to fix those flaws?
@@leisurelyindex I'm not sure.
I suppose for Frieza, trim down the Goku to the rescue by having him be active with the others throughout the arc, or just save it for the end.
For Cell and Buu? I don't know. What about you?
@@joegreen3802
I'm not sure either.
With Buu Saga, definitely trim it down to a reasonable length.
Cell Saga? Give some characters more wins or if not, more notable moments.
@@leisurelyindex Sounds right.
@@joegreen3802 I think the waiting for Goku is a bit exaggerated. It was more apparent against the Ginyu Force, but the gang did mightily well against Frieza before he put on his final costume. The fight against 2nd form Frieza is probably my favourite in the whole series, that could be nostalgia bias though.
If Buu really is a twisted version of Goku, the pointless transformations actually really fit him. Also, I'd Videl herself if a very good point of the Buu Saga, having a non-saiyan character showing some initiative was refreshing
Videl is one of the things I like about the Buu saga. And her and Gohan actually have the best couple. Much more interesting than the others
Subway Surfer At least in Z. In Super, she jyst became a generic housewife. Killin and 18 took the crown as best couple there.
I also liked that Hercule had such a big impact on Buu. It was interesting to see him do more than just be a jerk.
I actually know why future 17 & 18 were more ruthless than present versions: Trunks came back to warn them. That means Gero had to wake them early, before their programming/brainwashing was complete, meaning they had more of their human minds intact.
Also the addition of 16 made them more chill.
One thing about the Buu saga that I still enjoy is that it took the Spirit Bomb to finally put an end to Buu. Well, Kid Buu, anyway. We thought Gohan would do the deed, then Vegeta, then Goku, then Gotenks, then Gohan again, then Vegito, etc. In the end, it was a group effort to put the Pink Predator down once and for all. Everyone helped save the universe, and all it took was the rousing cries of the Champ. Granted, it took ages to get there, but when the Bomb was deployed, it was satisfying to see K. B. bite the dust.
Yeah!
Also Vegeta kinda gave the idea of letting the earthlings save themselves through the spirit bomb, which shows his character growth from the Vegeta that helped Boo be released in the beggining of the arc
@@ale-xsantos1078 A very good point. Not bad for a prince who once tried to destroy the Earth.
@@DreadLockedCipher I actually would have preferred if it had been the Mafuba to beat Buu because I like the idea that it is impossible to beat Buu with straight power
agreed! it was quite great!
@@mitchellhorton9382 but the spirit bomb is also created to cleanse evil, and Buu was pure evil personified once he showed his true form
My biggest criticism for the Cell saga, is reverting Cell back to what Toriyama always does. Allow me to explain. Every villain in DB always starts arrogant, cocky, and aloof while they are more powerful than their opponent. Then the hero gains a transformation, and they lose their cool, and enter a sea of denial, disbelief, and anger at the fact that they aren't the most powerful anymore. As mentioned, this describes every villain in DB, so you would think that it would be more of a general thing, than a specific thing for the Cell arc. However, Cell has a huge percentage of his dna as Saiyan dna, so this would have been the perfect opportunity to make a villain who, instead of losing their cool when they start losing, get excited at the prospect of fighting a strong enemy. Especially when you consider that the entire concept of starting the Cell games, and threatening the earth, was to get the most powerful warriors on earth together, and get them to fight with out holding back, in order to test out his perfect form.
I liked all of Super Buus transformations, specifically how they were handled, his antenna grew his cloths changed & he had slight personality changes. It was simply & clean
Buu’s Z fighter forms look cool but they lack Buu’s normal unorthodox personality and feels like Perfect Cell clones
I love the slice of life stuff after Cell.
And frankly "Adult" Gohan is one of my favourite characters.
I really do hate that we didnt see that tournament play out.
Seeing Goku and Vegeta in the finals would have been incredible.
I agree. Especially if they'd actually stuck with eschewing SSJ for the fight and kept it a bit more old school. Would have been a neat throwback, both to the more technique based battles of OG DragonBall as well as shades of their first fight in Z.
Same, I'm shocked it was shorter in the manga. Could've had a Superboy thing going. I also wonder how the tournament would've played had Gohan fought Vegeta.
Yeah. Sure, Gohan seems different from the cell vs buu saga, but new Gohan ain’t that bad.
Unless ur Toriyama
True, except that is impossible: goku and vegeta were set for round 1. Literally the victor (unless either surrendered) would be decided when that fight ended.
Mad Link Not the worst thing in the world for GvsV to be round 1. The best match doesn’t have to be the final round, after all.
Masako:The cell saga isn't perfect
Perfect Cell:Am I a joke to you?
#001 Toryiama: Yes.......yes you are. And I had to design your damn spots on your "Perfect" body!
No it isnt perfect... its Perfecter..
@@joribremer5260 Accurate, but tone it down.
@@joribremer5260 👌🏾noice
a_leisurely_index. He almost got it, it would be *Mr. Super Perfecter Cell*
You talked about Vegeta's redemption in Buu, but you forgot to talk about Mr. Satan's redemption in that arc. While perhaps it didn't have the same emotional impact Vegeta's did, it was very well handled.
He went from hated to appreciated.
I'd argue that the introduction of Super Saiyan in the Frieza Arc is what side lined a lot of characters. Going all the way back to the Nappa/Vegeta fight and then later the Ginyu/Frieza fight, Goku without Super Saiyan was already so far above everyone else, that with that slapped on top of it, that was the moment the gap could no longer be closed by the human characters. I mean sure Tien could become as strong as Goku was against the Ginyu Force with enough training, but Goku isn't exactly about to just stop training himself in that time to let them catch up. The further Super Saiyan Forms just compounded the issue.
And of course the new villains needed to be a threat to a Super Saiyan in order for there to be any tension and so the pool of viable fighters shrank with every new iteration of Super Saiyan.
It wasn't really Super Saiyan. It was Freeza. When you go from 200-300 (Piccolo) to 1200(Raditz) to 18 thousand(Vegeta) then 15 MILLION... well, then you break power scaling entirely. If Freeza was scaled down significantly then Super Saiyan would also have to be scaled down to keep the fighting interesting. The battle would play out the same, but the numbers would be much lower. If Super Saiyan was just a stronger Kaioken without the drawback of your body possibly exploding it could have been less outrageous.
@@kyuubinaruto17 As someone who likes the power level numbers as a concept and the use of scouters by the Frieza force, it was absolutely ruined once it got to Frieza and super saiyan. Rather than super saiyan doubling power, it should just increase your base power by 25% or something.
@@derekrichardson7853 I think that SS is a X50 multiplier. It took an exhausted Goku all the way up to above 100% Frieza levels, while a 20x Kaio-Ken couldn't even scratch 50% Frieza.
I actually had fun with the Highschool and Saiyaman parts of Gohan's Buu story. It started falling off for me once he started fighting Dabura since his weakness compared to the others really starts to show. It's still a fun enough fight but also one of the ones that fades from my memory. Once Buu started clobbering everyone and Shin managed to escape with Gohan I was excited for the training but once Elder Kai showed up and the dull comedy and Spiritual Dancing started I just didn't care about it anymore. Gohan's new power wasn't really earned in a satisfying way and I could tell he wouldn't be the winner, Goku is already starting to poke his head back into the narrative. Ultimate Gohan also has that dumb moment with missing the earring and getting made into another snack by Buu, which sealed the deal for me. I was ready for Gohan to slip into the background since Goku's reemergence, but they just kept pulling in both directions after Buu and it was a mess.
Well The Cell Saga from Dragon Ball Z isn't perfect, but The Cell Saga from Dragon Ball Z Abridged is Perfect
no, not that either. 60 part 3 was a major disappointment.
@@jamainegardner4193 if you have insane expectations, then sure. Otherwise, it was literally perfect.
how can all these squares make a circle lol
@@jamainegardner4193 I thought it was pretty good.
While GT is much maligned, the final arc was a real neat concept. Corrupted incarnations of Shenron born from the major wishes in the series thus far had real potential, and they even went so far as to make Nuova Shenron a genuinely decent person who happened to be loyal to the villains, all because he was spawned from the opposite, selfish wish for eternal youth.
The lesson of not relying on unfair advantages and taking more care in your one and only life was lost on me as a teen, but I've come to appreciate GT's final arc as a swan song for the macguffins that started it all; the Dragon Balls themselves.
That's the thing about GT I see concurrently. It had good ideas, but the execution was not good. A set of Dragon Balls that can grant any wish, no ands ifs or buts, but with the price that your planet is destroyed? Pretty damn good! Having to explore the Universe in order to gather said Dragon Balls? Hit and Miss. The OG Dragon Balls being corrupted due to the Dragon Team's reliance as a Deus ex Machina? Pretty good! The majority of them, outside of Nuova, Eis, and Syn, being unremarkable minor hurdles? Not very compelling. The expansion of the Saiyan arsenal to include a more destructive Oozaru and a more feral SS form based off said Oozaru? Interesting as Hell! Actually, aside from the (relative) lack of SSJ4, that was one of the ideas I do like a lot that had its potential play fairly well without overextending its welcome or being underwhelming.
The problem is, the very concept of the final arc of GT was flawed to begin with. Much like the rest of GT, they retconned the crap out of the series as they went. Based on the actual lore, Shenron is only as powerful as the guardian that created him. Meaning, Omega shenron, at absolute most, could only be as powerful as Dende. Which either means that, he should have been completely bodied by Goku, or really any of the Z fighters, or Dende is far more powerful than any other character in DB, and would have been, at minimum, equal to omega shenron, who would have never come into play, because of how much more powerful Dende should have been than any of the other Dragons.
@@ikeillue8385 Well, except Omega Shenron was made by Kamiccolo (or the Nameless Namekian). And considering how even then Namekians like Guru said that he was equal to a Super Saiyan in strength, it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities the Black DBs are marginally stronger than the normal ones, but with the initial dark energies within the Nameless Namekian, it causes the planet they're used on to be destroyed in a year's time. And as we saw in Super, the dormant personalities of the Namekians fused into Piccolo don't fade out of existence (as well with Z showing Piccolo sensing God Ki in Shin), so it's entirely possible the balls to still exist.
Well Massako I respect you paying buu his due more so than the super anime did
I just thought of something: do you think Gohan's true purpose and "destiny" was actually played out in Trunk's timeline, and Trunks going back to the past screwed up that path for him? Think about it, until Gohan lost his arm in the future he was basically on par with Goku, he had replaced his dad as the known protector of Earth, and basically came to the same conclusion as Goku did in where he would take on Trunks to teach him to take over after he was gone. It really did see like until the Buu saga really revamped his powers Future Gohan was the peak of what Gohan SHOULD have been, and even in Super when Trunks goes back in time again he notes how this Gohan isn't really what he envisioned.
Cell: don't talk to me i'm _angy_
I'm sorry but why did this become popular?
The spirit bomb defeating the final villain was absolutely perfect. I felt so excited watching it for the first time, raising my hands and genuinely trying so hard to give goku any little bit of help I could. It really made me feel like I’d helped goku win. That’s the genius of the spirit bomb in general. I’ll never forget that moment. It gives me a massive hit of nostalgia.
Final a special technique that actually works
@@robrockstar9648 uh... what?
Piccolo: NERD!!!!
@@EviIM0nk3y 😎
I like to think Buu is the unused ideas for android 19 Toriyama wanted to use in his first draft of the android saga
That explains Android 21
What kind of ideas did Toriyama have in mind? Was the 19 we got anything like what he originally planned for the Pillsbury Doughbot?
Sometimes, I really wish Gohan just beat the litteral crap outta Spopovich. Damn, I REALLY wish Gohan did SOMETHING!
Purchase DragonBall FighterZ and the DLC Pack with Videl try to perform it.
@@walterpetersen776 why is spopovich in that game at all
While there are moments in the buu saga that bother me but dang it do I love Mr. Buu, his reveal, easily defeating dabura, dominating shin, to later become a bubbly manchild with a sweet bond with Hercule and Bee. Disappointingly underused yes but I still love Buu.
If I was Videl, I'd be more than a little suspicious of all the "conferences" that Gohan is attending.
In all seriousness, I love that Videl is so sure of who Gohan is as a person and so confident in their relationship, that even when she gets shown a picture of him kissing another girl, she’s like “Nah, this is a setup.”
@@BucioTheZenith that's a negative in my opinion. She's literally a cardboard cutout at this point, okay with literally ANYTHING Gohan does.. and that's very uninteresting.
@@theowlboy3873 I agree. And it is also totally the opposite from what she was before. If at least, she demanded some explanation later in the episode, it would for a more interesting interaction between them.
I like her trust on Gohan
I'd say the problem is how her personality was handled
Think of 18, she also absolutely trusts Krillin, but she still has a fiery personality and is a fighter even though both her and Krillin were busy raising their daughter
@@theowlboy3873 I mean she's basically written out of the show, they don't want to make her interesting unfortunately
But her trust in Gohan makes perfect sense, his morality and honor are unimpeachable; and she knows him better than anyone else.
Now, if someone told her that Gohan lost his temper and hurt someone accidentally? She might believe that, because she knows he has violence in him
But cheating on her for sexual gratification? I don't think so
My favorite thing about Buu was his nature. One second he is trying to help a blind kid, next scene he blows up a city. Super Buu and his transformations felt like more of the same, but Kid Buu became interesting again.
Even then, Super Buu did still have a chaotic, childlike, personality. He was just a lot more sinister and impatient than Fat Buu. This is shown especially well with the events leading up to the Gotenks fight, when he suddenly appeared at the Lookout.
The trope of the Z Warriors standing in a row and commenting on Goku or Gohan or Vegeta's fights was quite the blow to the series. At least in the Saiyan and Namek arcs they all would have fought together. Cell Jrs barely count.
My favorite part of the Buu Saga was the introduction of Videl
I really like imperfect Cell and think he's the best Cell, now think about it, he's an actual villain. He skulks around and actually does a pretty good job at staying hidden but sadly he get way too cocky after absorbing 17, and like you had said he gets a lot of help in getting to his perfect form from people who really had no right doing what they did.
The Buu Sagas were my favorite to be honest. I love the Cell sagas, don't get me wrong. But, the Buu sagas were my favorite in the show. I do wish they could have kept Dabura along a little longer. I feel like they kept Gotenks around for a while. But, the Vegeta and Goku fusions always get cut short. They could have kept Vegito in for a while longer. I love Super Buu but maybe he didn't need as many transformations.
Unpopular opinion:
Videl vs Spopovitch was great for raising the stakes and unexpected with a good shock factor in Dragonball. It makes you wary of Babidi
I agree, these are villains after all, they don't need to have a code of honor.
It's screwed up, but it IS a fighting tournament. Videl was just too prideful to admit she was outclassed. If she had just surrendered she wouldn't have been put into such a horrific state.
Well, the whole "wait for Goku" is pretty bad when you're entire arc starts with a timetraveler saying "we can't do it without Goku!"
This is why, honestly, Goku teleporting Cell away should've been the end of the Cell Arc
12:23 "oh good now I can watch us become irrelevant vertically rather than horizontally".
I think my brother summed up Gohan's arc in the Buu saga best when he said it was kind of like watching a Rocky movie where the champ has to train himself again after slacking off, and actually has a really good buildup to the final fight, but then just as the fight is picking up, the opponent's manager chucks a brick at his head and knocks him out.
You are tackling the impossible today: leaving the bubble of DBZ thought about the sagas. Brave new world Masako, good for you
I think for the 17 and 18 differences in the timeline, one of the key components was that it wasn't a complete stomp. Yes, they beat the Z fighters quite decisively, but they actually had a challenge, they had a little bit of reality knocked into them due to the intense training the Z fighters had gone through, whereas their future counterparts had no competition at all, they were allowed to pretty much run around like spoiled children, being free to destroy and terrorize however they liked. Cell played a large part in this as well, along with them really not having much of a chance to do anything before being absorbed. That as well as being woken prematurely and having 16 be awoken with them, many things occurred to change their personalities.
I've ways loved the Buu Saga. To me it always felt like the pinnacle of DBZ and everything truly seemed lost. While it's true you don't always need to go bigger for your stories and sometimes you really shouldn't I always felt it was perfect here.
The only thing I dislike when re-watching is the amount of dialogue, like 2 punches are thrown and then let's stop and talk for 10 minutes 😂
Nostalgia really did delete all the boring parts of dbz
It's a shame the Cell Saga got shafted in Dragon Ball Z Kakarot, they removed the Final Flash and Super Trunks (or Ultra Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan Grade 3 Trunks)
I love Cell's introduction as a sort of horror movie villain creeping around and being menacing from the shadows but beyond that I found him super uninteresting, especially his Perfect form. He is easily the most overrated villain in the series. Gohan's character arc is the only truly interesting part of Cell's story after his first transformation.
Agreed, Imperfect Cell was ironically the most perfect part of the Cell Saga.
One thing I didn't like about cell is that everytime he gets cornered, he panics like a little b*tch.
Because his arrogance is just preposterous!
He has too much Freeza and Vegeta cells in him.
To be fair a lot of Z's villains did cower when cornered except for maybe Vegeta and maybe someone else I can't think off the top of my head
That’s the Frieza/vegeta kicking in
Peach Star vegeta tried to destroy the planet the second he started losing to goku
Can’t wait for the next upload of Frost and Freeza being good! Thanks for the awesome stories masakoX
The none Saiyans been useless is my least favourite part of the series. I was so annoyed that Picollo was basically useless after fusing with Kami. I know it's unrealistic. but I hope one day we get some sort of human transformation that makes all the humans at least useful again.
Hopefully once they get to the point that Pan is able to train that can serve as way to push the family man angle and help him make him relevant at the same time. Seeing Him and Videl train Pan would be a heartwarming and a lot of fun.
I actually liked super Buu you could tell that the voice actor was having a lot of fun.
Masako, you can't just make a CD-I Zelda reference like that.
I am still traumatized. Don't do this to me, man.
My boy!
Masako: That's what I do for most of my what-ifs, including the Frieza one
His 4 Frieza what-ifs:
My problem with the Cell arc was that Cell wasn't really Gohan's villain. He was Goku's. So when Gohan was the last person to fight him, twice, it didn't have that same impact as it did with other final villain fights. Goku and Vegeta were great because they were opposing ideals and social status from an alien planet. Goku and Frieza worked because Frieza faced what he truly feared and he figured that out more and more as they fought. But Gohan and Cell didn't have any clashing ideals or at least didn't bring up all that much. They just had to fight each other and that was that.
What I did like about the Buu saga was the power of magic over people. It really was nice having a sorcerer doing whatever he wanted and it would've been nice to see him use more powers. Maybe even being a mid boss of sorts, casting spells from an indestructible magic bubble or putting the heroes in crazy scenarios just to have a shot of fighting him. Then when he's about to win, Buu gets bored and kills him. Still, having a different type of villain, even one that was just pulling the strings in the background, was interesting for a while.
Guys, guys, guys...
Hot take: great saiyaman is one of the best things about the buu saga for me. I love seeing this guy we got to know try to defend earth in his own way, while also just being a giant nerd. He has so much personality, and its great
I know a lot of folks pile on Saiyaman for being way too frivolous and silly, but honestly, to me, the only real weakness I see is just a question of stakes. There needed to be some type of proper antagonist/supervillain for Saiyaman to play off of. Not even a super strong person necessarily but someone like a Lex Luthor or Joker character that could challenge him in a different way. Or a rogues gallery made up of villains using some of the wackier gimmicks from the past (return of Monster Carrot, anyone?). Hell, you could even work Babidi and Buu into that story frame without too much tweaking to their original characterizations as they're just silly enough to work with that if you just tone them down a little.
@@Bonzothefifth I........LOVE that thought. The adventures of Saiyaman and Saiyawoman. Needs to be a comic book!
Remember how they made a movie about him in super? They could do so much fun stuff with that
Dumb Denki True, and it's definitely a start. I can imagine a whole series of DB style supervillains for a rogues gallery, especially if they also tested Gohan's intelligence and friendships and not just Saiyaman's strength.
Is it his Perfect Jawline?
‘I wonder whats next for me :)’-Gohan
(Piccolo places his hand on Gohan’s head)
‘:). You peaked :/.’ -Piccolo
‘What?’-Gohan
‘You peaked.’-Piccolo
‘YOU’RE KIDDING!’ -Gohan
‘No.’-Piccolo
‘But but I get stronger right?!’-Gohan
‘Yeah but noo....’-Piccolo
Ultimately it boils down to the trope known as "franchise original sin": a flaw that was minuscule in the Cell saga grew more in the Buu saga and culminated in GT and Super.
The Cell saga was very serious, dark & action packed
The Buu saga was funny, action packed & a bit serious
Unpopular opinion but first form super Buu was one of my favorite villains in DBZ. He was scary, funny and rather intimidating. His fight with Gohan (in the OG dub)shows how to wright a squash fight well. Buu was constantly on the back foot, but he was able to pull off crazy stunt after crazy stunt just to push Gohan's buttons ending in him absorbing Piccolo and the kids, which then he used to get into his head and piss Gohan off even more.
My biggest issue of the Cell Arc is the treatment of the power levels.
11 year old Gohan got maybe 4 more years of training (3 before android attack and one in the ROSAT). And somehow he is stronger than a 13 years older battle hardened Gohan (who probably not only got some training in, but possibly quite a few Zenkais from fighting the Androids).
Hell even a Gohan who had stopped training for 7 years to the beginning of the Buu arc was more powerful than an older Gohan who was fighting androids quite often
This also carries over to the two Trunks where one, it takes a 13 year old losing his best friend to finally cause him to transform, but another it takes an 8 year old who does it because he's bored.
Also, no relationship between Trunks and Gohan other than in the special. You'd think Trunks would want to train with the Gohan in the past, even act as some sort of protector of Gohan (maybe instead of randomly getting shot in the chest by Cell, he takes the hit for Gohan).
What if lord slug turned good: basically lord slug tries to pull a king piccolo and take revenge via offspring, but his egg is caught by piccolo and thus he raises Slug Jr.
One thing I love about the Cell Saga : Plot,action and great character of Gohan from Raditz saga til Cell Saga.
One thing I hate about Buu Saga :
The story too quick and make Gohan weak.
Shouldn't that be in reverse, tho? Like what Masako just did?
The Buu Saga is the lengthiest saga ever in Dragon Ball. Akira Toriyama himself stated that he would do whatever he wished since he lacked editor supervision during that era.
The Buu saga was way too bloated though. Making it shorter might have actually helped the structure a bit.
@@Lord_Of_Night if it was shortened we would have lost so many cool moments
The Buu Saga has its problems but i wouldnt change a single thing about it
Looks like Cell will need to be visited by the bathtub barracuda after this
1 - Buu Saga Gohan; Agreed. I like that you have a character who fights because he HAS to, not because he WANTS to. From the time he could walk it was five years of non-stop fighting for his life. To say that the following seven were peaceful, he can be forgiven for letting his training slip. From four to nine, he did not get a single peaceful year, unless of course you count the one following Namek's explosion, and even then...Yeah, the problems people have with Gohan kinda _started_ in Buu, but it's Super that keeps pushing that forced split that he _already resolved_ for himself.
2 - Loss of adventure; Never really thought about it, but...ehhh, that's a bit of a stretch. The Saiyan Saga was by and large just three big fights: Raditz vs Goku/Piccolo, Nappa/Saibamen vs Earthlings (ended by Goku) and Vegeta vs Goku/Gohan/Krillin. Not a ton happened in between. The Vegeta fight is my favorite in the series, but the saga itself was kinda nothing. And Namek was boring. There was a lot of back-and-forth, cat-and-mouse, sure, but adventure? Not exactly. I guess I can acknowledge it as being less about "just hit the bad guy harder," but I've...never liked Namek as a setting. There's nothing there TO explore.
3 - Character designs; ...Yeah. Wish Babidi's crew got just a tad more screentime. Not a lot, but everyone bar Dabura was basically just there to be a punching bag and got very little personality. If they got a little more time, put those designs to better use, that would've been cool.
4 - Consistent Cell Assistance; Yeah. Again. Why does Cell have a second form when it lasts for not even a single full fight scene? I don't like Semi-Perfect Cell's design, but frankly, just glancing over it like that is still a bad move.
5 - 25th Tournament; Yeah. It wasn't a big thing, but it was a great idea, and a good way to tie into the main plot from the prior stuff. That it came back later on was icing on the cake.
6 - Too Many Twists; Disagree. I thought that constantly changing the villains was pretty cool, actually. You never really knew quite what to expect, and it's not until Cell becomes Perfect that you really know who the "final boss" is gonna be. It's really unique among DB sagas in that way. 19/20 were a bit of a loss, but I think they did what they needed to, and they weren't really all that interesting to begin with.
7 - Majin Vegeta; Does this have to be said? Yes, single best thing, hands down. Better than fusion, I have always said that Majin Vegeta is "the biggest redeeming factor" of the Buu saga. No one will argue that, I don't think.
8 - Power Creep; Yyyyyyep. Big yep. It's pretty bad. Much as I like Cell as a villain and the saga that leads up to him, this was the start of "Just Get a New Transformation." This is a flaw that pervades anime as a whole, and it really started more with Frieza than Cell, but even then, Super Saiyan was alluded to for like the whole second half of the arc. And then Cell Saga comes along like "Do Super Saiyan, but better." It's there. We accept it. But we don't have to like it.
MasakoX: the supporting cast in the cell saga becomes to weak to fast
Also MasakoX: in the tournament of power the supporting cast becomes to strong to fast
Toriama: WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME
Okay well I think what he meant with the ToP is that their increase in power didn't fit with the previous narratives and scaling; the idea that Roshi (or really any human) can even come anywhere close to Saiyans or Androids is basically just a huge retcon (which I'm mostly fine with, though I think Roshi was too far; he was past his peak power level at the start of Dragonball, and it doesn't really make sense that he's managed to become 1000x stronger than his peak in the intervening 25ish years)
7:38 Actually, Cell was the one who got Vegeta thinking that way in the first place. I'd say you should probably give Cell some more credit for pretty much "playing Vegeta like a fiddle" and manipulating him the way he did.
Thanks to the Saiyan and Frieza DNA inside of him.
Ultimate Gohan is still my favorite Gohan with "A whole new Gohan" still my favorite episode of the buu arc.
In regards to my own work, I really don't want to fall into the Dragon Ball trap of only the main character and one or two others mattering. Even if they can't measure up to the villain, you can still give the supporting cast things to do. I don't think it's that hard.
My only gripe with the series, as a whole, is that when you see Goku progress from his battle with the Saiyans up to Frieza, the animation demonstrates their skills improving in a way you can actually see. Example, Frieza being so fast you only see the places where he disturbs the water. However, from the Android saga onward, at least visually speaking, it doesn't really appear that the characters are any faster. In fact, a lot of the time, the fighting seems slower. Granted, it may of been impossible for them to animate things faster but, surely they could do better than by going the opposite? Instead, they just have bystanders , like Krillin, comment about how much faster Goku is now, even though the animation shows him going his regular speed or slower. Just a small gripe. It is all entertaining at least and inspires many out there to improve their physique. Abridged made me laugh so hard I had to get stitches. Well, metaphorical ones. Don't be concerned about my health. :)
How is it possible to hate anything about that perfect being? Especially one with such a handsome jawline.
I don't think it's fair to say the Cell Saga was where power creep became an issue. Every arc up to that point fit the pattern of weak lackeys, stronger lackeys that only the top fighters figure against, and finally a boss that only Goku can beat. Cell Saga lacked lackeys. If not for executive meddling, it was going from Freeza and Cold, who only Trunks and Goku could even touch, to the final boss duo of 19 and Gero who were supposed to be far stronger than Freeza and Cold. Any potential lackey fights were cut off by Trunks...cutting them off.
It was honestly a nice change of pace from my perspective. No more fiddling around with enemies that we all knew would instantly be irrelevant when Goku showed up, no more convenient excuses to keep Goku out of the fight while everyone else fought a contrived battle. You can only do that once in a series the length of DBZ, but it was nice to see.
If I were the executive who got to meddle without having the hindsight of liking how it turned out, I would have pushed for a subversion, though. Some new power that only the humans can get that leaves Goku and Vegeta in the dust. Gohan becomes the hope of the future because he could potentially learn both powers, Trunks shows its absolutely necessary just to even figure against the final Android menace. That gives a reason for Gohan to step up, while still giving a reason for Goku and Vegeta to try to go beyond Super Saiyan so the Saiyans can help their young sons in the fight ahead (and get back on top, because of course...).
They could also have done something with the numbers we didn't see or a quick visit to Eighter and Frappe to learn more about Gero.
Funny thing
Here in Brazil the Boo arc was aired so many times and the dub did such a better job with it than they did with the Cell arc that, before I got to see the english and japanese version, it was pretty much filler to me
Seriously, instead of that marvelous voice brazilian Cell sounds like a grumpy old man, think of Mr Satan dubbing him
It was incredibly surprising to me that the Cell arc was so good in these versions and that TFS managed to make it the climatic ending for the series in the abridged version
If you were to go tell kid me that the Cell arc would be my favorite DBZ arc in the future they'd probably scoff and laugh because back then I held it in the same regard as Masako with the Fake Namek arc
I thought Buu had the absolute best entrance of any villain in the entire series, original included. Trunks' sword quickly became superfluous after one shotting Frieza.
Shin seemed really sinister and suspicions when he was first introduced. I was almost convinced he was going to be a bad guy.
Cell: MasakoX the perfect HATER
MasakoX:thats what I hate about you
Buu's my favorite saga. It was Toriyama unleashed, and it was the first time the Spirit Bomb actually worked!
I thought this was a DevilArtemis video for a minute with the thumbnail.
I love the Buu arc, and I big part of why comes from the fact that it was my first arc when I first started getting into DBZ.
Also, kid Buu legitimately scares the crap out of me.
hehe yes fear majin race but majin women are top tier
Love your King Harkinian impression
My favorite things about the Buu saga (apart from the obvious sacrificial explosion) were Videl's whole arc, Mr. Satan befriending Buu, and a lot of my favorite comedic bits in the whole show come from this arc (Goku and Vegeta inside Buu, for example)
"That DBZA thing" is what got you any recognition in the first place
Perfect Cell is handsome and all but the imperfect form is still my favourite. He was alot more intimidating as a straight up monster for me personally.
Cell will always be my favourite character. Period
I still love Cell but I am willing to admit he isn't faultless.
@@MasakoX We can both agree on that 😅 Your video did a good job of putting things in perspective. But there's something about the big green Cicada that makes me wanna go back and watch his finest moments.
All the Problems aside. There is one thing I really like in the Buu Saga is ... Mr Satan (I'll never call him Hercule). When he lived together with Buu and connected with him was precious and I loved it all the way. Mr Satan going from the wanna be hero, who is full of himself, becoming actualy helpful by befriending Buu and convincing the People of Earth to lend Goku their Energy as well as acknoladging, that all of them are stronger was pretty awesome.
Aw, Masako watching Dragon Ball with his family is the best thing I heard all day.
Thats the best thing about the tournament of Power, It allowed characters that were left behind due to Power creep get their time to shine without breaking the established powerscale
I also really think the whole thing about Cell and the nucleus thing would have paid off more if we had seen it sooner in the series. Yeah we saw Cell regenerate from damage but think about this: When Piccolo attacks Cell after the fight with 17, we could have seen Cell vaporized only to reform from his nucleus to finish off Piccolo. Then that idea could have been in the back of our minds of the rest of the series, not knowing if it would come into play or not when the time comes for him to blow himself up. That was we already know he has the power, it gives the readers enough time to have it overshadowed by everything else going on, and having Cell finally return after his self-destruct would have been a pay off from almost his introduction.
4:47 Cell himself also got a little bit of that in, going around the world and absorbing people.
What I like about the Saiyan saga: Raditz, Piccolo sacrificing himself for Gohan, most of the human fighters got to at least contribute something to the fight.
What I don't like about the Saiyan saga: The fact that Raditz is basically forgotten about, the last time we see a Saiyan character ever use the Oozaru transformation (if you don't count GT).
What I like about the Frieza saga: Goku going Super Saiyan, the Ginyu Force, learning more about Piccolo's homeworld.
What I don't like about the Frieza saga: The over-reliance on the Zenkai Boost as a deus ex machina which started the trend of Non-Saiyans becoming irrelevant.
What I like about the Cell saga: Cell (and Bruce Faulconer's Perfect Cell theme), Androids 19 and 20's introduction, Gohan going Super Saiyan 2, Piccolo fusing with Kami, Goku's fight with Perfect Cell, Future Trunks.
What I don't like about the Cell saga: Cell only achieves his Perfect Form due to plot-induced stupidity, all Non-Saiyans are now completly irrelevant.
What I like about the Buu saga: Dabura, Majin Vegeta (and his sacrifice), introduction of Fusion, Goku goes Super Saiyan 3 (with Faulconer's music).
What I don't like about the Buu saga: It does drag on in places and all of the new transformations and techniques introduced ultimately serve no purpose to the story as Buu is beaten by a technique introduced in the Saiyan saga.
I kinda feel like had goku dedicated himself to training he could've beaten cell, but he was trying to train Gohan to be the defender of earth not just training him to unlock super saiyan.
Also I feel like Gohan's potential wasn't squandered. They kept implying and showing that an angry Gohan is a strong Gohan, but at the same time Gohan didn't have that saiyan drive to get stronger or fight strong opponents. If you think about it Gohan only went to namek because he felt indebted to piccolo not because he was one of the strongest people left on earth. And if you think about the fight with cell Gohan was forced to snap and fight cell and because he couldn't control his emotions Gohan stopped fighting because he didn't want to lose himself to those emotions. Also if you think about it Gohan had the goal of having an academic profession. If Gohan spent all his time training when he really has no desire to get stronger he wouldn't be able to achieve his actual goal. The same is kinda visible with goten and trunks. They see fighting as playing and will probably stop eventually because they don't really have much of a reason to continue training because there motivation was it being fun.
I think if Gohan had to take over in the end & fight even with Kid Buu, holding him off until the spirit bomb had formed... that would have helped a bit.
Dabura living after his beat down by Buu & having to team up with the Z fighters to take his revenge could have added a lot of variety to the story plus adding official lore about the Demon Realm.
hm i was thinking this was not gonna inteest me but....Masako you are just to good i can never dislike one of your vids
the maddening thing about Buu is that he in a sense existed before the creation of the multiverse
Gohan up to the tournament? Agreed. The rather one-sided and pointless fights in the Cell Arc? Agreed. The character designs in Buu? Agreed. Another tournament? Agreed (and the scenes with 18 and Hercules were great). Too many androids ("DO I HEAR 6?!)? Agreed,. Cell basically coasting by because of our heroes being incompetent is my biggest peeve with that saga; it's already contrived enough he exists, but then he somehow overpowers everyone in base form, and every time he loses, he somehow manages to escape to get stronger. And it's not just being smart; being smart would only explain how he got into the timeline; but the contrivances to get to perfect are really breaking reality. My other pet peeve is Cell coming back as Super Perfect Cell; if the intention was to take away Goku to make Gohan triumph alone, it didn't work because Goku helped anyway. I liked Vegeta sacrificing himself, but turning Majin in the first place irked me; it made him lose all the development he had in the last arc when he finally got a family. And definitely hating the power creep: I really hated Freeza coming back in the first place, especially with his extremely anticlimatic end. Ah, future trunks. He started out as a Mary Sue, then became a useless tagalong the more the saga came along. Or when Kami fused with Piccolo: it's a pretty satisfying conclusion to their arcs....but he's immediately made irrelevant by Cell.
I think it's a difference between buildup and result: Cell didn't have that good a buildup, but it had a satisfying result. Buu had really good buildup, but a really unsatisfying result.
This was a great video. Too many fans in too many fandoms refuse to find anything good in the parts they dislike, or find flaws in the parts they like.
What you said is true. The Super GT debate comes to mind. They have similar problems but somehow one is good and the other is bad
I do like the buu saga. Probably because, where I live, DBZ went off the air mid Cell saga, and I didn’t get to watch it until I got to college, so until then the buu saga was like this mysterious mystical thing...
watching this was nice, as a person who unironically loves the buu saga the most of all the sagas.
This was pretty interesting. I'd like to see this list for Saiyan and Namek arcs too.
While I found the Buu saga less enjoyable than the Cell saga, the Buu saga CERTAINLY had less glaring plot holes.
*cough cough perfect cell returning cough cough*
Piccolo: I can regenerate as long as my head is intact.
Cell, who has Piccolo cells: As long as the nucleus in my head isn't destroyed I'll regenerate.
Goku: Blows up the entire top half of Cell
Cell: Regenerates anyway.
As much as THAT doesn't make sense it IS at least consistent with how he returned later. So it's like filling in one plot hole only to create a different one.
I think some of the power creep was inherently due to the villain jumping rapidly as each inherently needed to powercreep the last, and after it all, from 19 and 20 to mian androids to each cell form so rapidly it left the rest of the cast much farther behind as the the saiyans were powered up to keep pace
I know people don’t like the nucleus thing but you have to admit it gave you that, “ are you f**king kidding me” feeling.
Lots of people say the best place to end Z would've been after Frieza, others say after Cell, others where it actually ended with Kid Buu. But my ideal ending spot would be Vegeta sacrificing himself to stop fat Buu. Just drop the "he can glob himself back together" bit and have that be it...
Least favorite part of Cell: It started the "OMG HE CAN REGENERATE FROM ALMOST NOTHING" trend.
It would have been fine if it meant beating a regenerator meant figuring out and exploiting some weakness, or if it gave a weaker character with knowledge of some obscure technique or technology a chance to shine, but it didn't. A powerful regenerator just means you have to hit them super-dee-duper hard. The "Buu must have been able to regenerate from enough molecules in the air!" thing almost made me quit DBZ on the spot.
Thing I liked about the Buu Saga: I honestly liked Videl and her interactions with Gohan, as well as her attempts to learn from him like learning to fly and how to fight better and such. It felt like something they could've really done something with... had Spopovich not happened.
Thing I disliked about the Cell Saga: I feel like you nailed it with the power scaling problem. When most of your main cast is just standing there commentating, something is clearly wrong. Either give them relevance, or they have no reason to BE there anymore. And if you do give them relevance... make it make sense and not just "And suddenly they jump in power!" like they did in Super for the Tournament arc. Honestly, part of that would've been solved if someone just, say... TAUGHT THEM THE KAIOKEN... but oops.
Cell Saga Pro: We got to see the cast go through some crazy training and growth.
Cell Saga Con: None of it mattered and Gohan peaked.
Buu Saga Pro: Gohan and Videl! Obviously!
Buu Saga Con: None of Gohan’s growth mattered in the end, and our home girl Videl got stomped on for 2+ episodes. Seriously. I still hate that part with *every* fiber in my being.
The power creep that started in Cell is honestly why I liked the ToP so much. It was a nice change of pace to see other characters actually fighting
My least favorite moment in my favorite arc (Frieza saga) was Piccolo never learning Kiaoken. You just brought this up a few weeks back, but reignited my hatred of Piccolo becoming irrelevant. If Piccolo learned Kiaoken (And the humans too), they’d all have remained relevant. In fact, if Piccolo would have learned that technique, he likely would have been able to fight SSJ 3 Goku. But no, what we got was Piccolo getting thrown to the wayside. 😒😒😒. My favorite part of my least favorite arc (the Majin Buu saga) was Kidd Buu. The gang needed to fight something that was pure chaos. And Kidd Buu fit that bill perfectly. However, as you just pointed out, we needed something like 8 Buu transformations to get there. That was way too many.
Talking about the Buu saga reminds me how much i missed DBZA...
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