When I first saw the movie I was wondered if the the king and his female guards were based on a pride of lions since female lions do most of the hunting for the pride.
The problem was the fact that for such an advanced society they still had a monarchy in which the ruler is decided by mortal combat. Ridiculous. Killmonger would have had to launch quite the political campaign if leadership was decided by popular vote. If he won he could have simply turned the tables on the colonizer through sheer socioeconomic power. No need for violence at all.
I just recently discovered this RUclips channel and I'm already hooked. This was the missing link in my subscription list. Thought-provoking analyses of movie symbolisms are seldom seen on RUclips. Consider me appreciative of your efforts.
Right. Because the most advanced technology always stems from a society whose leadership is chosen by what amounts to the victor of an arm wrestling match..
Dude it's a comic book.movie, I mean we don't have magic tech balls that heal spinal injuries or magic flowers that give super strength. The combat could even be looked at as a symbolic debate of words. For action sake the movie showed fighting but in reality we do the same thing on the debate stage. Just no physical violence.
It's a symbolic story, you dumbass. It's not supposed to make sense. The story was resurrecting those archetypal themes that are symbolically significant.
I’m a theater artist and I’ve found your videos invaluable. The lens through which you look at movies is refreshing and always interesting. How can actors bring in the sense of the traditional into their work? I know the medium is very different from what you are used to
I loved watching African Americans vehnematly defending the idea of an ethno state when the movie came out... I still dont think they ever got the joke.
I still cant believe they let the line about the refugees bringing their problems with them in the movie. Although they did give it to a cowardly weak traitor, but still lol
Chronfucius yes it attacked the African American male.. killmonger was seen as a thug with no guidance who grew up without his father.. who just so happens to kill the only African American female in the movie.. I was not impressed with how we were portrayed
I’m a conservative African American and I understand that many of my people are blindly following the left. I love black panther and understand the dichotomy between an ethnostate and a multicultural/globalist one. Don’t assume all African Americans are clueless on these issues.
And it was fascinating that black panther’s love interest was concerned with the plight of their African neighbors. She is introduced in the movie in the middle of acting on their behalf. I enjoyed this break down. It reminded me of everything I loved about this film.
@Jona what Europeans do with slavery is they try to always justify it with the "your ancestors sold you" and if not that just avoid the conversation all together. You alls want us to own it alone when there's nothing wrong with slavery. The Europeans were also enslaved. White women and children were amongst the first. But, what Europeans did to Africans was not slavery. It was the dehumanization of African and native people's world wide. An African concept of slavery had nothing to do with owning you your children etc forever. The ability to rape murder screw you your children etc forever is a European and Arab thing...
This is an absolutely amazing breakdown. Identity is modulated by ideology which is modulated by morality. Morality is forged in the heart and refined in the mind. People with strong hearts and weak minds are analogous to the good intentions that pave the road to hell. People with strong minds and weak hearts know but do not care. An identity functions similarly to an immune system. It segregates itself from not itself...allowing it to identify threats, allowing it to defend itself. Imagine if you were in the jungle and had no identity separate that of a Jaguar...you would be entirely oblivious to the danger and incapable of defending yourself. This dynamic continues to be applicable outside of the jungle and in our homes, communities, etc. Where differences cease to be so obvious and dangers more ambiguous. Its nearly impossible for people to become blind to the similarities and differences between themselves and others. It’s hard coded in the most primitive parts of our brain as a mechanism for survival...and for damn good reason. Identity only becomes a problem when one is weak of mind, and/or weak of heart.
Great video. I wish you'd gone into the insidious political motivations of the filmmakers more, but you touched on it enough, I think. On second thought, it probably wasn't necessary for you to spend time discussing it. It's just so obvious when stories aren't being told to convey a quintessential truth of being, but rather are distorted into a vessel for a comparatively simple ideological message that reduces the world into a few axioms insufficient for maintaining a balanced attitude towards being. Please keep these videos coming!!!!
I am surprised at many in the comments. I feel that some of you are projecting a narrative that Jonathon simply isn’t conveying here. It’s quite obvious that his perspective is that of human kind as a whole, and the challenges of identity with humanity as a whole. Mentioning the African American experience just gives further context for his points on the film. In fact, I’m impressed with how level headed Jonathan is being in this analysis.
Yeah the people for and against the movie are crazy in these comments. The ones for it , some, are showing their victimhood and how they dislike other groups. And the ones against, some, are showing how they have contempt that such a movie is celebrated since Africans are still "living in the stone ages"... blah blah blah. Both seem hurt.
I have to say, the politically motivated media hype turned me off to ever seeing the film, but because of your video, now I HAVE to see it! I'm really glad I found your channel. Keep it up!
You danced around Afro-futurism for a while there. I'm surprised you didn't mention it. It does make sense that the movie is about African-Americans rather than Africans in Africa, and for this story it was especially important to address the social/political ideas together with the narrative and symbolic structures. Thanks for your perspective and keep making great videos.
"bury me in the ocean with my ancestors" says the long-lost son of African royalty in a country otherwise hidden from the rest of the world. i mean... unless I am missing something, his ancestors were not slaves?
@Will DeMarco no, it was some strong tribes who kidnapped and sold members of weaker tribes into slavery (including the King of Dahomey who used his all-female "Amazon" bodyguard to help raid other tribes for slaves) It was like the ancient Greeks and medieval Italians and Vikings who kidnapped other white people and sold them into slavery.
As a Mixed person, since I can remember I've found the Assumption of Family Based On Skin Color to be rather offensive. I'm not your Bro, I'm not your Sista, I'm not your Cuz. Also, I am not oppressed any more so then lily-skin poor people. We're all struggling, in different ways and from different traumas. Most of it is psychological and leftover conditioning by our parents.
We know how you feel already. Everyone knows how you feel. Podcast, books, novels have been written about it. This is no surprise. Folks know you want to distance yourself.
Most looking forward to the reading list. Dr. JBP's book suggestions have helped me greatly, and I am now excited to add the Orthodox perspective to it.
The two main books he has suggested which cover a lot of his framework: Hymns on Paradise - St Ephrem the Syrian (with Sebastian Brock commentary) On the Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ - St Maximus the Confessor Life of Moses - St Gregory of Nyssa My personal additions which are relevant and similar: On the Human Condition - St Basil the Great The Language of Creation - Matthieu Pageau (His brother's new book, just released) It's also worth reading some of the traditional myths and Saint stories, with commentaries on them.
A1R what are some traditional myths and saint stories? He recommended ‘Laurus’ by Eugene Vodolazkin, I am halfway through that and love it. What are some of the saint stories you would recommend? Thanks
Yes, Laurus was recommended I think in his video with Nicholas Kotar. I don't read as much fiction/novels as I should. He often uses the story of St Christopher, he also has a video on Puss in Boots and Shrek relating them to myths. Most of the large Saints which have become symbols of countries/medals etc. Saint George, St Patrick...have stories which at face value seem odd, since they're often dressed in symbolism. Basically any popular Greek/Roman myth, European fairytales, Aesop's Fables etc.
Great analysis! I had a couple recommendations for future analysis videos: Akira 2001: A Space Odyssey The Godfather Princess Mononoke The Truman Show Arrival I think all of these would make great subjects! Keep up the good work!
Greenman Man, if you haven't seen Akira, you've got to. It's amazing! I'm curious if Jonathan would interpret it as a Pentecostal story, that's my interpretation at least.
The Godfather is a great suggestion. I'm not a fan of mafia movies typically because it seems like the gangsterism is romanticized and fetishized but the Godfather movies seem to clearly show the contrast between good and evil as well as the moral rot and inevitable catastrophe that awaits all who give in to darkness.
Jonathan, ypu are on the correct track of analysis. You are very intelligent and insightful as to the dark forces that are destroying traditional family values.
i just want to say something about killmongers famous last line: "bury me in the ocean where my ancestors....." so I hate to tell you, but youre ancestors did not jump from the ships... they became slaves, and- this is important- lived long enough to have children... who had children, who had children who had you... the ones who jumped from the ships ended their line... the ones who lived to have children continued theirs.. so ya. do with that information what you will.
it doesnt matter what he identifies with, the fact of the matter is his ancestors did not jump from ships no matter how badly he wants to be related to them
@@yodizzll Actually it does matter what he identifies with, and it doesn't matter who his literal ancestors were. Why is it that you morons can't get it through your skills that this is called the "symbolic world"? It doesn't matter what's literally factual. What matters is what's meaningful and emotionally significant. It's a symbolic statement. It's not about him being descended from them genetically. It's about him being descended from them symbolically, for identifying with their particular situation and choices. Identification with repeated patterns in history is what the symbolism of ancestry is about. Moron.
Black Panther gets a lot of flack for being some cultural marxist black fantasy but I think this is a great fictional mythos for Black America, way better than gang culture, which I think the movie is partially a critique of.
We would be wise to know that truthfully, most of this identity group related to Killmonger more than T'Challa. And powers that be want them feeling justified in doing so.
@@buttarain27 Lol funny comment. I think we all do but Black Panther's Bullshit is on another level. Advanced Society fighting with sticks and spears? C'mon man.
Great analysis! This film was by far the most over rated of the entire MCU - although it wasn’t the worst. (That privilege belongs to iron man 3). Surprisingly BP was nominated for 39 awards & won 20 of them! I’ll admit it had its moments, but I found it to be “under-engaging.” I love African tribal drums & this could have been a fantastic soundtrack if it had made better use of them. But it was mostly generic orchestration. The CG was sub par. The fight choreography was lack luster. But what annoyed me the most is hearing African American actors butcher the African accent (not all - but most). I really love accents of all kinds. It was very disappointing they didn’t think to incorporate a vocal coach for the actors that needed that. If not for identity politics in Hollywood, such an overtly corny film would never be so critically acclaimed. One could argue that all the marvel films are somewhat corny, but I found this one to be a bit much. It lacked the standard of quality that could have justified its contrivances. #thanksObama
@@jagmichaelgilbert8523 I hadn't yet seen those when I posted this comment. Still haven't watched Homecoming or Captain Marvel & don't plan to. I'm totally done with Marvel films - actually all films & TV. That stuff is completely ex'd out of my life now & I'm a lot happier! The need for entertainment is a symptom of an unhappy mind.
@@smak387 It's not about '1 African accent" per se. It's about speaking accented English when English is not your native language. If you ever talk to Africans you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Similarly, there are hundreds of languages spoken in India, yet no matter what dialect they speak, they will have a distinctly recognizable accent when they learn English. This because of the common phonetic structures in the culture. Many Africans speak French, but you would likely be able to tell the difference in English accent between a French person & a French speaking African. That's because each region has certain sounds that are more commonly used. Perhaps you would run into confusion distinguishing between certain Caribean accents & African accents (like Haiti or Domincan Republic). Those are quite similar.
The themes you bring up here are a part of why I really liked Black Panther. It almost works better as a sort of a classical mythical tale rather than a modern mythical tale (aka, a superhero movie). I think the journey T’challa is thrown on by the realization of the lie is pretty great, and something you don’t find in a lot of modern superhero movies. I had some issues with the film, like the corny humour and surprisingly poor cgi, but I think it’s much better than some subsets of the Internet give it credit for.
That was very insightful of you to recognize that this movie was more of a black American identity movie than an African one. It's true and I believe that is why the idea of Wakanda nearly became an object of worship in the black American community when this movie came out.
(Holy f*ck these comments are toxic.) Great stuff. Seriously. I hope Black Panther 2 has as much depth as the first one. Looking forward to your analysis.
Jonathan, I enjoyed your video, but I disagree that the film is about a search for identity: It is about the the terrible, socially-driven pressure most black Americans face in aligning with one of two, polar-opposite identities--the militant versus the pacifist (e.g., MLK versus Malcom X). Neither extreme (and neither leader) is or was fully accepted by the mainstream of black Americans, nor did either represent Christians in the conservative sense of most black Christians. Moreover, neither extreme philosophy sufficiently addressed the myriad of issues that plagued the black community (some external, some organic). Indeed, the movie is about how these extreme characters each exclusively choose either organic or external causes for their challenges and arrive at opposing views. Moviegoers are then torn in their affinities, since both characters are flawed but both also virtuous. From the comments, it seems this may be difficult for many white Americans to understand. However, perhaps if they visited some place like Cyprus or Northern Ireland it would help. No one can say the Irish or Cypriots lack identity: they just face terrible, extreme choices in representations of their identities, neither of which accurately fits their true identity. (Oh, and Ham's descendants were not cursed, Canaan's were. "Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren" Contrary to popular belief, black people are not descended from Canaan. Ham had other children, including the other two brothers.)
That's one perspective that you gave, in the hierarchy of meanings, your explanation is social, Johnathan gave more of an ontological meaning. Both have their place.
of ever. and i'm black lol. I enjoyed it make no mistake. But it is indeed overrated in order for its themes, explained so expertly by Jonathan, to be propagated to the unwitting masses.
Have you looked into Afrofuturism? It shares a lot of common tropes and elements with _Black Panther_ and is probably where a lot of its mythos was pulled from. I'm not too well-versed in it, but I am aware of its existence and basic properties and the film seems to fit its mold perfectly.
Africans have nothing to do with progress or the future. They are an obsolete branch of the human species. Associating with them results in little other than genetic and cultural regression.
@@imdone8243 "racist" is a moral objection which has no bearing on the truthfulness of a proposition or statement. They are a primitive subspecies. Their genes are dominant because they are older, but reproducing with them overwrites our more recent advances.
There was also a plenty of political philosophy topics raised, that I hope people paid attention to. Some incredibly crucial topics. The old king saying "You will struggle. You are a good man, and it is hard for a good man to be king." was perhaps my favorite. It is much more easier to fuck up and destroy nations, than it is to build them and hold them together. Beware of ambitious fools. But beware of good men just the same.
Great video. I wanted to love the movie, and all of the things you touch on in this video really made me enjoy it, but the movie itself just wasn't good. The themes were stellar, but the rest of it was just okay. Especially the action sequences and CGI.
About the people living the primitive life, I always viewed it as GUARD duty. Like one section of the Border tribe has to camp out there and maintain the image of poor wakanda for a month or so, then they switch with another section and go back to the city.
Yeah but if you look at the villagers in the city, their attire and the way they conducted themselves; they still retained that old world connection to nature (the simple living) This is why so many black Americans were in awe with "Wakanda" , as Johnathan suggested the integration of modernity with nature to be balanced and you even had nuclear families, it had a psychological calling to some.
I appreciate this so much. I have to be honest, I expected folks to focus on the social engineering in which is clearly projected by way of our handlers. I worried that folks would fall into the traps or devices that the "handlers" have been so successful in creating through the ages. I do, however, see the importance in that which you share, the message that is to be appreciated with the understanding of self existence in this world appearing as chaos when removed of true self, as the independent "path" in which makes sense to why we are.
Jonathan, What are some books you would recommend reading? I am halfway through ‘Laurus’ and like it a lot. Anything of that sort? What about saint stories “myths” to read? Thank you
Your movie reviews always go a little bit deeper than anyone else's. It would be a shame if you had to give up your icon-carving though. Re. the UN speech: I think it's based on a speech that the late Jo Cox MP gave in the House of Commons; having heard those sentiments in a real debate in the mother of parliaments, I don't think anything is added to them by putting them in the mouth of a fictional character!
Excellent analysis. I find this movie to be the most archetypically-accurate, complex and appealing movie in the Marvel franchise (in addition to its great music and visual effects), although I totally agree with your view on its last scene.
Though there are elements that criticize identitarianism as well as stagnation and segregation, those don't seem to be the point. The central point seems more to be about not leaving loose ends.
Hi Jonathan, thanks for your videos as usual. I have been vert attracted a lot to symbolism, that’s the main reason why I am here, but I am a little bit lost, which videos you recommend me to watch first o what books are good to introduce myself into symbolism? Again thanks for your work, I really appreciate it. Also I want to request you to take a look to Silent Hill, specially to Silent Hill 2. (Sorry if I misspell something, english isn’t my native language)
I am a black American. I did not see the movie, but from the conversation I've seen among other black Americans who have seen the movie, the issue of identity is central to their attraction to the movie. The issue of identity is central to ANY American born black in this country because we truly are alienated from our origin-- difficulty tracing our ancestry if we can trace it at all, and disconnection with Africa (there is a dislike of Caribbeans and black people from the African continent among some blacks in this country ). Blacks in the US do mythologize Africa when trying to "get in touch" with our origins, yet will sometimes resent African nationals. I think this might be rooted in a jealousy-- Africans (and Caribbeans, though less so..that's another story) having a certain and "unshameful" and KNOWN ancestry, while ours is rooted in several things that are taboo-- including the sins of our Other projected onto us. I think shame has been internalized by us, as a whole, as "a people", and we are "childlike" with our attachment to myth to try to assuage the pain of that. When we can have real conversations about it-- and my hope is that this can begin in the Church-- something truly powerful can happen for everyone, beyond myth. The movie could possibly be the beginning of that conversation (My two cents).
my problem with the female guards: they're pure for show. Both as a feminist display as well as their role as a guard. If you want the best guards you'll always want men because the strongest men are always going to be stronger than the strongest women.
As I am sure you are aware of the Black Panther Movement in the US and how it connects to this Character. I wonder what you think of the cultural revivalism of groups like this? What groups from the past would be valuable to resurrect and which have outlived whatever usefulness they may once have had and would pose a danger if reconstituted?
Yes, but I feel the movie answers that surprisingly well, killmonger and his father, though represented with affection and some sympathy, are nonetheless represented as deluded and wrong in their conclusions about how to approach the problem.
The character actually doesn't take inspiration from the Black Panther movement as others have saif.The character was actually created and debuted months before the Black Panther group came into existence. They were both created in the same year interestingly enough, but the comic book character came first.
The Black Panther Party was about protecting the black community from the depredations of the government and others. Killmonger was about turning the tables on the colonizer through violent revolution. Very, very different.
I believe I'd like to see you contrast/compare Thor and Black Panther. Given what you said here, I'm recalling that Thor originally rejected the throne for a life of self. Thor might be the mirror image of Black Panther. Loki might be, in the original Thor, the mirror image of Warmonger. Thor == Warmonger, Black Panther == Loki maybe? I think there are some interesting things going on there and I'm wondering what you think.
i like your new set. looks amazing. have you made that carpet in the time you were in Africa? very fitting for a analysis of black panther i have to say ^^
Really interesting!!! Based on what my friends told me about it, they just took half of the message of the whole movie... Didn't watch it (hate Marvel) but it was a great video
Its so funny seeing this movie focus on the plight of the African-Americans rather than the whole of Africa, the very continent Wakanda resides within.
“Bridges not barriers” makes no sense, the existence of a bridge requires the existence of a barrier, as it’s the single point of entry across a barrier. Also bridges and gates ensure a single, verifiable point of entry by trusted people, since anyone going over a wall or … zip-lining across a ravine, isn’t likely going into the city for trustworthy reasons.
Jonathan knows de wey
cringe lord
When I first saw the movie I was wondered if the the king and his female guards were based on a pride of lions since female lions do most of the hunting for the pride.
Brian Hines deep . . .hadn't considered. Good thought.
No, they were based on the mali royal guard.
Which may have been based on,..
and the males eat the young
Shawn White this is exactly what comments are for.
What of the warning inherent in letting people into your country, who do not share your principiles and grant them positions of power?
The problem was the fact that for such an advanced society they still had a monarchy in which the ruler is decided by mortal combat. Ridiculous.
Killmonger would have had to launch quite the political campaign if leadership was decided by popular vote. If he won he could have simply turned the tables on the colonizer through sheer socioeconomic power. No need for violence at all.
Like Obama?
@@treacherousjslither6920
Voting is gay & cringe.
The Chad monarch vs the virgin republican cuckold.
@@treacherousjslither6920 democracy is gay. Monarchy is the only system in which the leader is truly accountable.
@@treacherousjslither6920 I don't know. I think we might to expand this concept. All wars must be fought in mortal combat by the leaders alone.
8:22, as an African, I’ve always seen this movie as one for the African diaspora rather than those like myself that still know our mother tongue.
I just recently discovered this RUclips channel and I'm already hooked. This was the missing link in my subscription list.
Thought-provoking analyses of movie symbolisms are seldom seen on RUclips. Consider me appreciative of your efforts.
I love how you always manage to frame your criticism in terms of internal contradictions / problems of self-consistency of the stories' symbolic map.
This is absolutely related to his reading of Derrida and the positive influence D has had upon him
@@Verulam1626or maybe St. Gregory of Nyssa
Right. Because the most advanced technology always stems from a society whose leadership is chosen by what amounts to the victor of an arm wrestling match..
Foundation for Economic Education does a great job debunking this.
Lol it was entertaining but pretty silly by today's standards. Some traditions need to die.
For most of society leadership was literally chosen by being the offspring of the previous leader.
Dude it's a comic book.movie, I mean we don't have magic tech balls that heal spinal injuries or magic flowers that give super strength.
The combat could even be looked at as a symbolic debate of words. For action sake the movie showed fighting but in reality we do the same thing on the debate stage. Just no physical violence.
It's a symbolic story, you dumbass.
It's not supposed to make sense. The story was resurrecting those archetypal themes that are symbolically significant.
I’m a theater artist and I’ve found your videos invaluable. The lens through which you look at movies is refreshing and always interesting. How can actors bring in the sense of the traditional into their work? I know the medium is very different from what you are used to
I loved watching African Americans vehnematly defending the idea of an ethno state when the movie came out... I still dont think they ever got the joke.
I still cant believe they let the line about the refugees bringing their problems with them in the movie. Although they did give it to a cowardly weak traitor, but still lol
Loved the movie
Chronfucius yes it attacked the African American male.. killmonger was seen as a thug with no guidance who grew up without his father.. who just so happens to kill the only African American female in the movie.. I was not impressed with how we were portrayed
I’m a conservative African American and I understand that many of my people are blindly following the left. I love black panther and understand the dichotomy between an ethnostate and a multicultural/globalist one. Don’t assume all African Americans are clueless on these issues.
Mikado The Great I didnt mean to imply that. I was referring to conversations I had personally.
Actually from Kyrgyzstan. Your review of the movie was most informative so far.
Was wondering why you mentioned this until I got to 9:06. May God bless Kyrgyzstan!
Message me if your house burns down, I got you bro
And it was fascinating that black panther’s love interest was concerned with the plight of their African neighbors. She is introduced in the movie in the middle of acting on their behalf. I enjoyed this break down. It reminded me of everything I loved about this film.
With great power comes great responsibility. Apparently good old uncle Ben is far wiser than any Wakandan king.
Your analysis is incredible. I feel like I can appreciate this movie on a far deeper level.
11:13 - If his ancestors jumped from the ship, how did he descend from them?
Pretty sure he was speaking metaphorically he views all black people as his ancestors.
They jumoed die to depression and FEAR not pride. I dont get killmongers quote.
@Jona Neither him, nor the left does.
Fish poop
@Jona what Europeans do with slavery is they try to always justify it with the "your ancestors sold you" and if not that just avoid the conversation all together. You alls want us to own it alone when there's nothing wrong with slavery. The Europeans were also enslaved. White women and children were amongst the first. But, what Europeans did to Africans was not slavery. It was the dehumanization of African and native people's world wide. An African concept of slavery had nothing to do with owning you your children etc forever. The ability to rape murder screw you your children etc forever is a European and Arab thing...
This is an absolutely amazing breakdown. Identity is modulated by ideology which is modulated by morality. Morality is forged in the heart and refined in the mind.
People with strong hearts and weak minds are analogous to the good intentions that pave the road to hell. People with strong minds and weak hearts know but do not care.
An identity functions similarly to an immune system. It segregates itself from not itself...allowing it to identify threats, allowing it to defend itself.
Imagine if you were in the jungle and had no identity separate that of a Jaguar...you would be entirely oblivious to the danger and incapable of defending yourself.
This dynamic continues to be applicable outside of the jungle and in our homes, communities, etc. Where differences cease to be so obvious and dangers more ambiguous. Its nearly impossible for people to become blind to the similarities and differences between themselves and others. It’s hard coded in the most primitive parts of our brain as a mechanism for survival...and for damn good reason.
Identity only becomes a problem when one is weak of mind, and/or weak of heart.
Great video. I wish you'd gone into the insidious political motivations of the filmmakers more, but you touched on it enough, I think. On second thought, it probably wasn't necessary for you to spend time discussing it. It's just so obvious when stories aren't being told to convey a quintessential truth of being, but rather are distorted into a vessel for a comparatively simple ideological message that reduces the world into a few axioms insufficient for maintaining a balanced attitude towards being.
Please keep these videos coming!!!!
Enlighten me if you will.
I am surprised at many in the comments. I feel that some of you are projecting a narrative that Jonathon simply isn’t conveying here. It’s quite obvious that his perspective is that of human kind as a whole, and the challenges of identity with humanity as a whole. Mentioning the African American experience just gives further context for his points on the film. In fact, I’m impressed with how level headed Jonathan is being in this analysis.
Yeah the people for and against the movie are crazy in these comments. The ones for it , some, are showing their victimhood and how they dislike other groups.
And the ones against, some, are showing how they have contempt that such a movie is celebrated since Africans are still "living in the stone ages"... blah blah blah.
Both seem hurt.
I have to say, the politically motivated media hype turned me off to ever seeing the film, but because of your video, now I HAVE to see it! I'm really glad I found your channel. Keep it up!
You danced around Afro-futurism for a while there. I'm surprised you didn't mention it. It does make sense that the movie is about African-Americans rather than Africans in Africa, and for this story it was especially important to address the social/political ideas together with the narrative and symbolic structures. Thanks for your perspective and keep making great videos.
"bury me in the ocean with my ancestors" says the long-lost son of African royalty in a country otherwise hidden from the rest of the world. i mean... unless I am missing something, his ancestors were not slaves?
Killmonger wasn't born in wakanda his father was answer his we don't know about the other side of his family.
@Mista Scott are you talking to me or this guy?
@Will DeMarco no, it was some strong tribes who kidnapped and sold members of weaker tribes into slavery (including the King of Dahomey who used his all-female "Amazon" bodyguard to help raid other tribes for slaves)
It was like the ancient Greeks and medieval Italians and Vikings who kidnapped other white people and sold them into slavery.
@Will DeMarco Exactly spot on!
@@illarionbykov7401 African tribal chiefs also sold their own people like cattle! Fact
As a Mixed person, since I can remember I've found the Assumption of Family Based On Skin Color to be rather offensive.
I'm not your Bro, I'm not your Sista, I'm not your Cuz. Also, I am not oppressed any more so then lily-skin poor people.
We're all struggling, in different ways and from different traumas. Most of it is psychological and leftover conditioning by our parents.
We know how you feel already. Everyone knows how you feel. Podcast, books, novels have been written about it. This is no surprise. Folks know you want to distance yourself.
Most looking forward to the reading list. Dr. JBP's book suggestions have helped me greatly, and I am now excited to add the Orthodox perspective to it.
The two main books he has suggested which cover a lot of his framework:
Hymns on Paradise - St Ephrem the Syrian (with Sebastian Brock commentary)
On the Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ - St Maximus the Confessor
Life of Moses - St Gregory of Nyssa
My personal additions which are relevant and similar:
On the Human Condition - St Basil the Great
The Language of Creation - Matthieu Pageau (His brother's new book, just released)
It's also worth reading some of the traditional myths and Saint stories, with commentaries on them.
I would add Matthew Segall's philosophical essays on the website 'Footnotes2Plato'.
A1R what are some traditional myths and saint stories?
He recommended ‘Laurus’ by Eugene Vodolazkin, I am halfway through that and love it.
What are some of the saint stories you would recommend? Thanks
Yes, Laurus was recommended I think in his video with Nicholas Kotar. I don't read as much fiction/novels as I should.
He often uses the story of St Christopher, he also has a video on Puss in Boots and Shrek relating them to myths.
Most of the large Saints which have become symbols of countries/medals etc. Saint George, St Patrick...have stories which at face value seem odd, since they're often dressed in symbolism.
Basically any popular Greek/Roman myth, European fairytales, Aesop's Fables etc.
Great analysis! I had a couple recommendations for future analysis videos:
Akira
2001: A Space Odyssey
The Godfather
Princess Mononoke
The Truman Show
Arrival
I think all of these would make great subjects! Keep up the good work!
Greenman Man, if you haven't seen Akira, you've got to. It's amazing! I'm curious if Jonathan would interpret it as a Pentecostal story, that's my interpretation at least.
Hunter x hunter
The Godfather is a great suggestion. I'm not a fan of mafia movies typically because it seems like the gangsterism is romanticized and fetishized but the Godfather movies seem to clearly show the contrast between good and evil as well as the moral rot and inevitable catastrophe that awaits all who give in to darkness.
Jonathan, ypu are on the correct track of analysis. You are very intelligent and insightful as to the dark forces that are destroying traditional family values.
What are traditional family values?
i just want to say something about killmongers famous last line: "bury me in the ocean where my ancestors....." so I hate to tell you, but youre ancestors did not jump from the ships... they became slaves, and- this is important- lived long enough to have children... who had children, who had children who had you... the ones who jumped from the ships ended their line... the ones who lived to have children continued theirs.. so ya. do with that information what you will.
He identified with the Black American history not Wakandan history. Nails in the point of Killmongers identity as never being Wakandan.
it doesnt matter what he identifies with, the fact of the matter is his ancestors did not jump from ships no matter how badly he wants to be related to them
@@yodizzll Actually it does matter what he identifies with, and it doesn't matter who his literal ancestors were.
Why is it that you morons can't get it through your skills that this is called the "symbolic world"? It doesn't matter what's literally factual. What matters is what's meaningful and emotionally significant.
It's a symbolic statement. It's not about him being descended from them genetically. It's about him being descended from them symbolically, for identifying with their particular situation and choices. Identification with repeated patterns in history is what the symbolism of ancestry is about. Moron.
What if they had kids before they jumped?
@@kekistanihelpdesk8508 So they left their kids to the fate they wanted to escape? And to fend for themselves on a slave ship?
Black Panther gets a lot of flack for being some cultural marxist black fantasy but I think this is a great fictional mythos for Black America, way better than gang culture, which I think the movie is partially a critique of.
At first, I thought I wasn't going to like your analysis; but, I found it very thought provoking and interesting.
Jonny my man, nothing escapes your notice. Brilliant as always.
Very interesting analysis. I don't really care about comic book movies but this made me want to check it out.
We would be wise to know that truthfully, most of this identity group related to Killmonger more than T'Challa. And powers that be want them feeling justified in doing so.
Brilliant. I never saw Black Panther either but it's exactly the type of garbage propaganda that I was expecting. Quite ludicrous.
I bet you watch all that other bullshit that comes out of Hollywood though, lol.
@@buttarain27 Lol funny comment. I think we all do but Black Panther's Bullshit is on another level. Advanced Society fighting with sticks and spears? C'mon man.
@@rakumafireball1640 True.
You never saw the movie but condemn it anyway. Brilliant.
But its not
Its about an African advanced civilization
Great. The editing is getting tighter. I appreciate this. Thank You Jonathan.
Great analysis! This film was by far the most over rated of the entire MCU - although it wasn’t the worst. (That privilege belongs to iron man 3). Surprisingly BP was nominated for 39 awards & won 20 of them! I’ll admit it had its moments, but I found it to be “under-engaging.” I love African tribal drums & this could have been a fantastic soundtrack if it had made better use of them. But it was mostly generic orchestration. The CG was sub par. The fight choreography was lack luster. But what annoyed me the most is hearing African American actors butcher the African accent (not all - but most). I really love accents of all kinds. It was very disappointing they didn’t think to incorporate a vocal coach for the actors that needed that. If not for identity politics in Hollywood, such an overtly corny film would never be so critically acclaimed. One could argue that all the marvel films are somewhat corny, but I found this one to be a bit much. It lacked the standard of quality that could have justified its contrivances. #thanksObama
Both Spiderman and captain Marvel are trash
@@jagmichaelgilbert8523 I hadn't yet seen those when I posted this comment. Still haven't watched Homecoming or Captain Marvel & don't plan to. I'm totally done with Marvel films - actually all films & TV. That stuff is completely ex'd out of my life now & I'm a lot happier! The need for entertainment is a symptom of an unhappy mind.
There is no "African accent." Many languages and dialects on the continent.
@@smak387 It's not about '1 African accent" per se. It's about speaking accented English when English is not your native language. If you ever talk to Africans you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.
Similarly, there are hundreds of languages spoken in India, yet no matter what dialect they speak, they will have a distinctly recognizable accent when they learn English. This because of the common phonetic structures in the culture.
Many Africans speak French, but you would likely be able to tell the difference in English accent between a French person & a French speaking African. That's because each region has certain sounds that are more commonly used.
Perhaps you would run into confusion distinguishing between certain Caribean accents & African accents (like Haiti or Domincan Republic). Those are quite similar.
It’s quite clear where all your issues with this film stems from even though you tried to pretty it up.
The themes you bring up here are a part of why I really liked Black Panther. It almost works better as a sort of a classical mythical tale rather than a modern mythical tale (aka, a superhero movie). I think the journey T’challa is thrown on by the realization of the lie is pretty great, and something you don’t find in a lot of modern superhero movies.
I had some issues with the film, like the corny humour and surprisingly poor cgi, but I think it’s much better than some subsets of the Internet give it credit for.
Thanks Jonathan. You always have some great angles that I have not thought about :)!
My favorite RUclips channel right now !
This video was my tipping point for getting on with Patreon support. Thank you for doing this!
I really like this analysis. I haven't seen the film, but the philosophy is good
That was very insightful of you to recognize that this movie was more of a black American identity movie than an African one. It's true and I believe that is why the idea of Wakanda nearly became an object of worship in the black American community when this movie came out.
One of my favorite movies...so much amazing symbolism...I appreciate that it was made...thank you for your take I enjoy your content
I will just say one thing. You Sir, have an excellent microphone.
I know that it's too much to ask, but if you have time for series about how to think symbolic would be awesome!
That is definitely something I might do.
reading Jung might help
you should keep that background, it looks good
(Holy f*ck these comments are toxic.)
Great stuff. Seriously. I hope Black Panther 2 has as much depth as the first one. Looking forward to your analysis.
Jonathan, I enjoyed your video, but I disagree that the film is about a search for identity: It is about the the terrible, socially-driven pressure most black Americans face in aligning with one of two, polar-opposite identities--the militant versus the pacifist (e.g., MLK versus Malcom X). Neither extreme (and neither leader) is or was fully accepted by the mainstream of black Americans, nor did either represent Christians in the conservative sense of most black Christians. Moreover, neither extreme philosophy sufficiently addressed the myriad of issues that plagued the black community (some external, some organic). Indeed, the movie is about how these extreme characters each exclusively choose either organic or external causes for their challenges and arrive at opposing views. Moviegoers are then torn in their affinities, since both characters are flawed but both also virtuous. From the comments, it seems this may be difficult for many white Americans to understand. However, perhaps if they visited some place like Cyprus or Northern Ireland it would help. No one can say the Irish or Cypriots lack identity: they just face terrible, extreme choices in representations of their identities, neither of which accurately fits their true identity. (Oh, and Ham's descendants were not cursed, Canaan's were. "Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren" Contrary to popular belief, black people are not descended from Canaan. Ham had other children, including the other two brothers.)
That's one perspective that you gave, in the hierarchy of meanings, your explanation is social, Johnathan gave more of an ontological meaning.
Both have their place.
Johnathon, love the channel and really enjoying the podcasts also. Good to see more of these reviews on podcast if possible.
From Jordan Peterson to Jonathan Pageau ☦️ …kind of understand Jordan more when I listen to Jonathan 🙏🏾
Most overrated film of the past 15 years.
@@robtalbot3852 like Crash? Lol
@@robtalbot3852 good one Rob
Why?
of ever. and i'm black lol.
I enjoyed it make no mistake. But it is indeed overrated in order for its themes, explained so expertly by Jonathan, to be propagated to the unwitting masses.
@@LetTheWritersWrite I liked Crash
Now make a movie called "Proud Eagle" where blondes live in Germania 😜
That was a joke, but you know what I'm saying
Have you looked into Afrofuturism? It shares a lot of common tropes and elements with _Black Panther_ and is probably where a lot of its mythos was pulled from.
I'm not too well-versed in it, but I am aware of its existence and basic properties and the film seems to fit its mold perfectly.
Africans have nothing to do with progress or the future. They are an obsolete branch of the human species. Associating with them results in little other than genetic and cultural regression.
@@ThatMans-anAnimal that's just racist though. But if you mean iq, crime rates and etc I guess it's not really I guess
@@imdone8243 "racist" is a moral objection which has no bearing on the truthfulness of a proposition or statement. They are a primitive subspecies. Their genes are dominant because they are older, but reproducing with them overwrites our more recent advances.
@@ThatMans-anAnimal "Racist" is an adjective not a moral objection, don't get all mushy and sentimental.
@@qoako9695 I'm just being analytical, don't be reductionistic. It's both an adjective and a moral objection, clearly.
How did Qaddafi's amazonian guard work out for him?
There was also a plenty of political philosophy topics raised, that I hope people paid attention to. Some incredibly crucial topics.
The old king saying
"You will struggle. You are a good man, and it is hard for a good man to be king."
was perhaps my favorite.
It is much more easier to fuck up and destroy nations, than it is to build them and hold them together. Beware of ambitious fools. But beware of good men just the same.
Very fruitful analysis, I'm gonna watch the movie again. Thsnks
great job. loved it.
oh man I missed the sound of this intro!
Its been a while since I've watched one of your videos.
Sending Love to you and your family
Great analysis, Jonathan. I enjoyed it greatly.
Amazing breakdown- subbed- will support!
Great video. I wanted to love the movie, and all of the things you touch on in this video really made me enjoy it, but the movie itself just wasn't good. The themes were stellar, but the rest of it was just okay. Especially the action sequences and CGI.
I liked this discussion very much.
About the people living the primitive life, I always viewed it as GUARD duty. Like one section of the Border tribe has to camp out there and maintain the image of poor wakanda for a month or so, then they switch with another section and go back to the city.
Yeah but if you look at the villagers in the city, their attire and the way they conducted themselves; they still retained that old world connection to nature (the simple living)
This is why so many black Americans were in awe with "Wakanda" , as Johnathan suggested the integration of modernity with nature to be balanced and you even had nuclear families, it had a psychological calling to some.
I appreciate this so much. I have to be honest, I expected folks to focus on the social engineering in which is clearly projected by way of our handlers. I worried that folks would fall into the traps or devices that the "handlers" have been so successful in creating through the ages. I do, however, see the importance in that which you share, the message that is to be appreciated with the understanding of self existence in this world appearing as chaos when removed of true self, as the independent "path" in which makes sense to why we are.
What a thoughtful and deep analisys! I love your channel!
Yeah, the ending speech was really disappointing.
You expected an Obama speech did ya?
Jonathan,
What are some books you would recommend reading?
I am halfway through ‘Laurus’ and like it a lot. Anything of that sort? What about saint stories “myths” to read? Thank you
Great analysis ... This movie was just amazing ..this I agree the end was quite cringy
Your movie reviews always go a little bit deeper than anyone else's. It would be a shame if you had to give up your icon-carving though. Re. the UN speech: I think it's based on a speech that the late Jo Cox MP gave in the House of Commons; having heard those sentiments in a real debate in the mother of parliaments, I don't think anything is added to them by putting them in the mouth of a fictional character!
Excellent analysis. I find this movie to be the most archetypically-accurate, complex and appealing movie in the Marvel franchise (in addition to its great music and visual effects), although I totally agree with your view on its last scene.
The problem is that its archetypes don't cohere
Outstanding as always.
Hi Jonathan. I really enjoyed all your symbolic interpreting of modern movies. Id love to see more of recent movies. will you ever get back into them?
you good bro, keep it up.
Though there are elements that criticize identitarianism as well as stagnation and segregation, those don't seem to be the point.
The central point seems more to be about not leaving loose ends.
This was a great analysis! Thanks for your work
Have been greatly looking forward to this. Thank you kindly for the brainfood!
Oh. 3rd??
You are so awesome :). Thank you so much.
Excellent analysis. Gave me a lot to think on.
Very COOL movie!
the best thing about this movie is the patriarchy
I don't know if you take requests... but Jonathan, would you ever mind doing one of these videos for Wes Anderson's Grand Budapest Hotel?
Awesome research and insights. Thank you. 👍🏿😎
Hi Jonathan, thanks for your videos as usual. I have been vert attracted a lot to symbolism, that’s the main reason why I am here, but I am a little bit lost, which videos you recommend me to watch first o what books are good to introduce myself into symbolism? Again thanks for your work, I really appreciate it. Also I want to request you to take a look to Silent Hill, specially to Silent Hill 2.
(Sorry if I misspell something, english isn’t my native language)
Appreciated
this is brilliant
I will support you. Next symbolism analysis Ghostbusters remake.
Great vid
I am a black American. I did not see the movie, but from the conversation I've seen among other black Americans who have seen the movie, the issue of identity is central to their attraction to the movie. The issue of identity is central to ANY American born black in this country because we truly are alienated from our origin-- difficulty tracing our ancestry if we can trace it at all, and disconnection with Africa (there is a dislike of Caribbeans and black people from the African continent among some blacks in this country ). Blacks in the US do mythologize Africa when trying to "get in touch" with our origins, yet will sometimes resent African nationals. I think this might be rooted in a jealousy-- Africans (and Caribbeans, though less so..that's another story) having a certain and "unshameful" and KNOWN ancestry, while ours is rooted in several things that are taboo-- including the sins of our Other projected onto us. I think shame has been internalized by us, as a whole, as "a people", and we are "childlike" with our attachment to myth to try to assuage the pain of that. When we can have real conversations about it-- and my hope is that this can begin in the Church-- something truly powerful can happen for everyone, beyond myth. The movie could possibly be the beginning of that conversation (My two cents).
my problem with the female guards: they're pure for show. Both as a feminist display as well as their role as a guard. If you want the best guards you'll always want men because the strongest men are always going to be stronger than the strongest women.
As I am sure you are aware of the Black Panther Movement in the US and how it connects to this Character. I wonder what you think of the cultural revivalism of groups like this? What groups from the past would be valuable to resurrect and which have outlived whatever usefulness they may once have had and would pose a danger if reconstituted?
Yes, but I feel the movie answers that surprisingly well, killmonger and his father, though represented with affection and some sympathy, are nonetheless represented as deluded and wrong in their conclusions about how to approach the problem.
It should be noted that the character Black Panther predates the Black Panther Party and was even changed to the 'Black Leopard' briefly.
Thanks, good to know. I knew about the Black Leopard.
The character actually doesn't take inspiration from the Black Panther movement as others have saif.The character was actually created and debuted months before the Black Panther group came into existence. They were both created in the same year interestingly enough, but the comic book character came first.
The Black Panther Party was about protecting the black community from the depredations of the government and others. Killmonger was about turning the tables on the colonizer through violent revolution. Very, very different.
I believe I'd like to see you contrast/compare Thor and Black Panther. Given what you said here, I'm recalling that Thor originally rejected the throne for a life of self. Thor might be the mirror image of Black Panther. Loki might be, in the original Thor, the mirror image of Warmonger. Thor == Warmonger, Black Panther == Loki maybe? I think there are some interesting things going on there and I'm wondering what you think.
have a nice day my bruddah
i like your new set. looks amazing. have you made that carpet in the time you were in Africa? very fitting for a analysis of black panther i have to say ^^
Yes, this is Kuba cloth from Congo.
Really interesting!!! Based on what my friends told me about it, they just took half of the message of the whole movie... Didn't watch it (hate Marvel) but it was a great video
"You'd think they'd be concerned about x area in Africa"
Oh, you nice Canadians
Despite the clear misguided pandering that this movie was, Jonathan is dissecting the symbolism the creators put in the movie.
Its so funny seeing this movie focus on the plight of the African-Americans rather than the whole of Africa, the very continent Wakanda resides within.
“Bridges not barriers” makes no sense, the existence of a bridge requires the existence of a barrier, as it’s the single point of entry across a barrier. Also bridges and gates ensure a single, verifiable point of entry by trusted people, since anyone going over a wall or … zip-lining across a ravine, isn’t likely going into the city for trustworthy reasons.
This was great
Top shelf analysis. I’m a new subscriber.
hello! have you published an article or a book on this? so insightful
Enjoyed this a lot. Thanks for sharing ♡
The script of this movie was cringeworthy.. not to mention it was really boring and ill-paced.
SADLY,TRUE...Made for the Teen Minded...
Explain the symbolism in the film “The Fountain”!!!