Villain Therapy: KILLMONGER from BLACK PANTHER with guest Stacey Harkey
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- Опубликовано: 7 ноя 2022
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How do you cope with the anger and pain of not belonging? What leads people down a path of revenge?
Licensed therapist Jonathan Decker, filmmaker Alan Seawright, and guest Stacey Harkey take a look at Michael B. Jordan’s powerful performance as Killmonger from Black Panther. They talk about Killmonger’s complicated relationship with revenge and justice, why he’s probably the best movie villain ever, and why the character resonates so strongly with Stacey. And they marvel at how inspiring and cool Michael B. Jordan is.
See more from Stacey Harkey at / jkstudiosofficial and @staceyharkey on Instagram.
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Written by: Megan Seawright, Jonathan Decker, and Alan Seawright
Produced by: Jonathan Decker, Megan Seawright, Alan Seawright, and Corinne Demyanovich
Edited by: Jenna Schaelling
Director of Photography: Bradley Olsen
English Transcription by: Anna Preis
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There’s an old saying “He who is rejected by his own village will burn it down just to feel it’s warmth.” That pretty much describes Killmonger to a t.
The Little Matchgirl....
He was rejected by an all black nation and then grew up in a white nation that built him to the point he was rich and successful
Amazing saying
Is America a white nation? I wasn't aware@@sheepj2464
Christ did not.
Can we take another minute to acknowledge Michael B. Jordan's performance as Killmonger? He delivered all the rage and pain so well, not to mention we're used to him being more kind and likable.
Which means don't mess with the nice" guy
Yes, Michael is amazing in this role, he definitely made it his own.
This role made Michael B. Jordan aggressive in real life.
He's great as Adonis Creed in the Creed films too.
@@Xehanort10 Oh absolutely. love him there
Fun fact : the "hey auntie" line was improvised by Michael B. Jordan.
Also lately i saw an interview of Tenoch Huerta (Namor in Wakanda Forever) where he explained he asked to add some stuff to make Talocanil culture more authentic, and with an identity as strong as Wakanda. So Ryan Coogler definitely gives some freedom to his actors and he listens to them.
Yeah, I think the Latino actors wanted their own symbol representing Talokan culture, and Coogler said sure. Hence the Talokan Rising cupped hand thing they do. Coogler seems to be a really collaborative director, one who listens to his actors and tries to accommodate them.
This is what I wanted from ShangChi and didn't get, sadly. But it just goes to show how brilliant and special Ryan Coogler's guiding hand is.
@@jazzypom Then he was hand cuffed for Wakanda Forever.
Yep I knew that about the "hey auntie" line 😏
I kinda feel that the whole "we give you reign to add stuff to the script" is kind of a "must have" in the MCU for writers and directors, again to a certain dregree cause otherwise the films could double in length, like the "why is gamora" line in infinity war
SPOILERS AHEAD (read at your own risk): It's interesting how in the 2nd movie, Killmonger acknowledged that T'challa was the "noble" one. He can accept when he is wrong and actually do something to change. And it was very comforting that Shuri's character development was very much like her brother's. Angry and resentful at first but still chose compassion in the end. You are missed, Chadwick.
Spoilers
He acknowledged that T’Challa was noble, not that he was right. Killmonger still felt his way, was the only way. It’s why he says you want to be noble like T’Challa or do you want to take care of business like me. Or something to that effect. He even says you helped Riri because of what I started.
I think the major thing in both movies is that both T’Challa and Killmonger are right. As both of their motives are achieved in some way.
In the first movie Wakanda stops hiding and takes an active role in the lives of Black Americans.
In the second movie it was Killmonger’s viciousness and influence of doing whatever it takes is what gave Shuri the edge to defeat Namor. But T’Challa’s nobility and heart is what pushed her to spare his life and do what he wasn’t able to do with Killmonger, find common ground and be allies.
But with the US talking about destabilizing Wakanda so they can get Vibranium. I’m betting a lot more Wakandans will lean more towards Killmonger’s ideology over T’Challa’s.
@@noahknight4039 i like your theory!!! however, about killmonger and t'challa's point of view, someone in this comment section said that both of them make valid arguments. but, t'challa can actually bring an answer to the problem by being understanding and compassionate ; instead of inflicting the pain, which killmonger is supposed to be fighting against, into other people.
so in that case i would say t'challa is right, even though I understand killmonger's point of view and think he makes very valid points.
@@dublancdedinde On the other hand, good saving the day is a purely hypothetical concept that only exists in fiction. War and conflict has always and only been what has shaped all of recorded history, no matter how much we wish it weren't true. I mean, sometimes a given group will win in the long run by losing, so it's not entirely "history is written by the victors" but bloodshed is always long reaching an sacrifice and compromise are always short lived influences, very literally. Humanity is fundamentally flawed, and life is all about making due with that fact. Kindness is still a virtue, but it is at the same time still a luxury as well. Doing the right thing will always be uphill against the wrong thing coasting downhill. The struggle is laudable, but it's a zero sum game that just staves off further ruin, never fixing more than what's being broken.
@@Shalakor which is what i like a lot about this black panther! the world isn't really black and white. no one really is the villain, both of them have very valid reasons to explain their actions and views.
a lot of movies fall into this trap of making everything one-sided, like "this one is the good guy, and this one is the bad guy", without doing any nuances. and that's extremely unrealistic. even though i do love me some true villainess, i love it more when i find myself identifying with the character depicted as villain, making me question my morals and values as a person. and especially when their pont of view turns out to be right. which raises the universal question, should ends justify the means? if world peace ever got to be achieved, but with violence along the way, is it the only right way?
(btw your comment is so beautifully written. if you ever release a book i wanna be the first one to know😭)
@@dublancdedinde part of what made black Panther so good was that the protagonist and antagonist had good points. And the protagonist learns from the antagonist and moves forward with a plan that takes it into account and reaches a middle ground that could satisfy both. It’s also part of why he likely wanted Killmonger to live by the end, he didn’t see him as a 100% bad guy, and there’s blood on both their hands from direct and indirect action.
I feel like saying “Killmonger was right” simplifies the issue. Shuri and Nakia are right because they are the characters who start this movie already knowing the correct thing to do and operating from a place of love and healing. Hell, Shuri states the theme in her first scene. “Just because something works does not mean it cannot be improved.”
Killmonger is almost there but he is operating from a place of hate and supremacy. He _literally advocates for killing children._ But that doesn’t make him unsympathetic, which is a key to why this movie is so amazing.
Having black characters this complexly written is a landmark.
Rest In Peace, Chadwick Boseman, I cannot wait for the sequel.
ive always read the part as the end as killmonger looking out over wakanda and realizing that there are also things he should have been working to protect and celebrate, not just dismantle oppressive power structures. it's a very poetic trading of burdens with t'challa, who he forces to look beyond just wakanda to help and protect
@SilverSerpent64 now THAT is true.
@SilverSerpent64 Perhaps not right about killing museum curators.
@@thehopeofeden597 Killmonger wasn’t right about anything. He was only using the suffering argument to justify his true intentions so that he can take over the world to avenge his father rather than having any moral goal. He kills with question and basically has no morals at all.
Yeah but I wonder how much that message was outshined for some members of the audience because it was coming from black female voices vs male voices which are generally more centered - despite the fact that the female leads were pretty fucking bomb in this movie. You’re comment just makes me think…
Nakia made every point Killmonger made, in a different way. T'Challa could have listened to her, someone he trusted, at any time, but he brushed her off with tradition until Killmonger arrived.
1000% while T’Challa does recognize Nakia’s intellect, he’s blinded by his lust for her and does not want to risk angering the elders by changing tradition. So, when killmonger comes into the picture, T’Challa is forced to see the cost of tradition and how it has hurt, not only his own family, but his community all over the world
Great point
Yeah, I'm actually quite disappointed that they basically ignored the rational female voices in this movie to instead make a praise fest for a person who was literally advocating for murdering children. It was just so disgusting to hear so much praise and "he couldn't have done different" reasoning for someone like that, especially since he was such a selfish and misogynistic character. He wouldn't have made the world a better place, he wss just a new bad instead.
God forbid the men in charge ever listen to the women who are smarter than them. 😒
THIS!! This is something i bring up a lot no one else does
“Death is better than bondage” 😢
I wish i could see my ancestors face to face. The ones who chose life despite its horrible tragedies. Because they chose life- i am here. My family are all here because those before us chose life. Then one day my great great grandfather walked off a plantation and started a free life. And i am so grateful to all of them.
Actually, we are here because of both. Many movements took people willing to die for those who lived to benefit.
100% i am grateful to those who survived and also acknowledge and celebrate those who rebelled against the institution of slavery by laying down their lives - whether through personal or external measures.
That is who I think of when I read Psalm 37:10,11…
Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. 11 But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace
All our ancestors will get to bask in the beauty of the sun setting in their homeland. They’ll know freedom and peace and will no longer need to bleed for it. No one will take it from them. They deserve this rest and so much more and The Almighty will give them that reward. He has promised it so it is unchangeable. I look forward to being with them this day and soaking in their wisdom and courage. I know I am their wildest dream with everything I accomplish and I live everyday to give them more to be proud of when we are reunited❤
Your ancestor would laugh at you and tell you that you have it easier in comparison.
@@SuperLumianaire i literally said i was grateful for what they have done by surviving-so i doubt they would laugh at their own people that they created. They would not have kept on creating family if they did not have hope.
Go peddle your petty anger elsewhere.
As an archaeologist, my favourite line from Black Panther is precisely from Killmonger during his first scene: Britain DID plundered other nations and they carry on like nothing happened.
Well I mean that's every conquering nation. The French came in and plundered furs from Canada and ruined the Natives lives. Spain came in and ravaged Mexico, Central, and South America. The Portuguese did something similar to Brazil for a short time. Then the Mongols did it to all of Asia. The conquering tribes of Africa did it to the others until Britain came in and either paid them, set them on war with each other, or just wiped them out completely. The Italians did some but not as much. The Arabs were known for destroying cities during the times of their conquest. It's pretty much every conqueror has destroyed and acquired items from the peoples they've conquered. It's almost like humans are being humans.
Also as an archaeologist, there is something to be said for the preservation of artifacts that British colonialism and imperialism has accomplished. While I do NOT condone imperialism, it has led to some of the best artifact preservation. Especially given the war torn nature of much of the regions
@@reihleoberle8702 wars started by colonizers
@@reihleoberle8702 The war torn nature of these regions is the result of colonialism and imperialism.
@@reihleoberle8702 The problem with that line of thinking is that the artifacts in the BM (as well as many other museums throughout the world) may have been preserved physically, but the most important attribute was destroyed- cultural context. The Benin bronzes, for instance, are now almost meaningless in terms of what we can learn from them because they were removed and the order they were in was never recorded. They are a record of the history and culture of Benin, but no one can ever read that record again. How is that preserving them? And it’s not like most artifacts that are removed from their original locations are actually being shared with the world. The vast majority end up in museum store rooms and are never exhibited in the first place. My archaeology training stressed the importance of cultural artifacts staying with their communities of origin to the greatest extent possible, whether in local museums, government collections, etc. We don’t get to break into someone else’s home, take their stuff, and stick it in our basement and then claim it’s better off in our hands because their burglar alarm didn’t work.
As a black person born into a position of relative privilege, I actually related more naturally with T'challa. I found it so powerful to watch a mainstream movie in which black people weren't just painted as victims, but characters with agency and responsibility like everyone else. Was blown away by the complex themes and acknowledgement that not all black people have this natural affinity for all other blacks. Some of us have to learn and grow in order to stop hoarding what privilege and power we have.
And who is supposed to teach you about basic human decency and compassion?
I agree with what you said and can say I grew up not privileged like T'challa but like not in struggle in the way killmonger was but would say this film was also a good representation of how Wakanda, representing Africa in this sense cannot or does not relate with the outside world America in this case it's a great parallel between Africans and black American's even Afr9can Americans the hurt is so different and the experience so different that it's hard to relate or even have an affinity for sympathy for the other when each experience within those realms are so different.
@@missc.s.5790 i really don't get it, you need to have the same experience to develop empathy? Sounds really strange..
@@afrosamourai400
This is the case for a lot more people than you might think. Sometimes, they don't even realise it and think of themselves as pretty empathetic. In reality, they only feel simpathy for people with similar personalities, needs and experience as them. It's not so much empathy as it is projecting one's own feelings on others when they recognize similar paterns in them and rejecting and even antigonizing those they do not relate to.
@@afrosamourai400 wait, isn't this comment exactly that? You not empathizing and finding someone strange because they have a different experience?
It's interesting that in Erik's dying words, he asked to be buried in the ocean, like his ancestors. But since Wakanda was never colonised, he must be referring to his mother's side. She was likely a black American woman who had ancestors who were sold into slavery, so Erik is embracing both sides of his ancestors in that moment.
Well I don't think she directly was sold into slavery considering the time this takes place, but yeah he's most likely referring to his mother's American side of ancestors.
Yes, I agree with you. But here is a small correction. The way it's worded sounds like you are saying Erik's mother was sold into slavery... it was his ancestors om his mother's side who were sold into slavery.
Erik is born in the 1980's. A bit off with your timeline, aren't you?
It's a totally kick-ass line but it's not based in reality. Slaves were treated like cargo; like, "put below decks and ignored until we make port and sell them" type of things. Each of them lost their personhood the moment they were captured by whoever was doing the capturing. They had no chance to jump ship. They were trapped.
@@JonBeowulf this is why they need to teach history properly because you have no idea what you are talking about. Killmonger is refering to the Igbo Landing mass su!cides. There were also others over the span of history of chattel slavery who fought back in a myriad of ways. For instance, they had to make force feeding devices for those that tried to starve themselves to d3ath. There was always resistance. Try looking things up before being loud and wrong.
I took a class my second semester in college and we ended up talking about how similar T'challa and Killmonger were. They both lost their father because of murder and while T'challa wanted justice for his father he didn't want revenge while Killmonger believed justice was revenge
key difference is that t’challa grew up in wakanda while killmonger did not. t’challa has no connection to anyone else outside of wakanda so he sees no need to help them, but killmonger does.
Nah, t’challa wanted revenge hard in civil war. It took that whole movie for him to learn one of the major themes of that movie.
The key difference was one lost their further as a child, the other as a grown man. Different impact and the lessons stick harder to one then the other, good or bad.
Most Marvel villains are made to be identical to the hero of the story btw. Makes sense.
they are such amazing foils of each other!
@@butterflymage5623 Also that t'challa had people around him to help him grieve and stop him from turning down a dark path. Killmonger didn't. T'challa could've easily become like him had he not had his support system
The scariest villains are the ones who truly believe they are right. But the most terrifying villains are the ones who actually *are* right.
As stated before - there's being right and there's doing right. They're two different things. As pointed out in Ms. Marvel - good isn't a thing you are, it's a thing you do.
Also. Makes a relatable villain.. You can feel everything he says.. You understand it comes from a place of hurt and good. Makes it feel real.. There are plenty of people who act within their rights, without acknowledging pain or hurt..
He wanted to arm people to attack innocent women an children, then he probably would have gotten mad when they all got killed and the avengers destroyed wokqnda
Killmonger is black Hitler.
@@MrBrock314But what if there are certain things that "CANT" be done(I wish I could capitalize the quotation-marks instead) , it was impossible for a BLACK-Man to be Pres. before Obama came along & He was/is criticized at higher level for any & everything that He does, especially if a white male did the same thing before him, it shows a lack of equality & I'm talking about every BLACK-Man here. And in general sense, yeah it's possible for Brownskin(ned BLACK Dude)s to be treated worse than Darkskins are treated, but in a general sense as a BLACK Male the lighter you are the less harshly you're treated;and on the other hand lightskins & Mochas(slightly) which is just before Brownskin, I'd call Obama Mocha-Brown , & Especially mixed people get treated like oh they're one of us(I can treat him how I want) I'll definitely treat him equal now(wait a minute)- yeah hes white..
{No His DAD is BLACK , His DAD, that makes Him BLACK, but anyways}
Obama they treat Him a mixture of both & that Him being mixed & 'lightskin' is a literal pillar of Him being ALLOWED to be President & a primary part of what He ran with because He knew it was a 'strength' , the amount of claps when He showed that His Mom's father was white.
And that was the main reason why/ the origin story of how murica got Mr. Barack 'the first' "mixed but also tall & Handsome and literally the most presentable Nice dude ever, who also had to have white as spit joe crimebill biden as his running mate & was forced to flash how much white folks were involved in His upbringing & denounce powerful civil rights activist He charrished & give certain speeches- just to be able to defeat his didn't-stand-a-damn-chance against one of who literally had to be one Americas greatest speakers/speechgivers ever just to be President.. " Obama
(And I absolutely f love this Man btw).
My point is their are always CONCESSIONS that have to be made not sacrifices those everyone has to make- but what can you do when you are not even aloud to have something to sacrifice, nothing to give those who still want to force you to call them sir and master in a country with free speech were you can't say certain things or you'll get assassinated by fbi (like Martin, in which the King family sued & won finding the fbi & gov. civilly liable in His assassination using that ray mf as puppet, true story. Plus the suspicious "death" of his brother Dexter King a Man who could swim & had strangle marks on His neck
warning ⚠️ more depressing than this: ruclips.net/video/4TA2AIuAuW8/видео.htmlsi=rvLEEU5MjCoeWev9
)
The land of the free that my Men built...As SLAAAAVES
always concession(stands & auction ones).
No war was ever one when the already losing side , never shot back & they may still lose but it's better to die with the attackers cheek turned bc of You , than to be a cheek turned marder in a history book read by someone living under the same attacker
I think one of the saddest things about Killmonger is how great of an ally he could have been to Wakanda and T'challa if T'chaka had just taken his nephew back to Wakanda.
Actually no, because then he would have been raised in privilege. It's the suffering that he endured that created him, of course he would have been "radicalized" which is what the wakanda's think of nakia now. But without the actual suffering, there wouldn't have been an actual perspective.
It sucks to say it that way, but as was mentioned before nakia, his best friend who was the border patrol, all of them were telling him gently this is wrong not helping everyone. He needed to see it physically, it's just that way.
I think killmonger would soon or later discover what T'chaka did even if he took him in and we would have ended right here when him and t'challa are fighting for the throne of wakanda
Everybody in the theaters was laughing when Killmonger said, "Hey, Auntie"
@UCCVLdKrPDqxZG-8n6qamKCA he wasn't making a joke, but that doesn't mean it isn't funny for the audience.
It's funny because he's using a title that's usually associated with love and/or respect, but using it with tonnes of sarcasm and malice. Because she is his family, but she doesn't know it because he was abandoned due to the sins of her husband who hid the truth from everyone in that room.
The old King killed his father and stole this family and heritage from baby Killmonger, and he's finally found a way in to repay the debt. She is his aunt but she will get no respect or love from him. Not only that, but because her husband covered it all up, she (and everyone else there) is now at a disadvantage, because they don't know about this danger or the facts that created him.
It's not a laugh of good humour, but it's still funny because of the incongruity and surprise of his addressing her that way.
@@helenl3193 Jokes are ALWAYS funnier when someone dissects and explains them!
@@jakepullman4914 yes, but the person I was replying to stated that it wasn't a joke but a threat, as if OP was wrong.
I was just pointing out it can be both. Maybe the person wasn't from an English as first language background, and therefore it didn't translate well culturally for them. It's a shame they deleted their comment because I wasn't trying to shame them or anything, but it can be so hard to be clear what your tone is via text and RUclips comments can be a fierce playground 🤷♀️
(edit: typo)
I heard in an interview that line was improvised and it caught the cast off guard.
The women were giggling like idiots...including myself 😂
In the first movie it was so interesting learning that T'Chaka was not a "good man". Leaving your brother's body for your nephew to find is one of the most evil things I've seen in a Marvel movie. T'Chaka passed the belief of only protecting and leading Wakandans to T'Challa but left an innocent Wakandan to fend for himself. He claimed to have "chosen his people" which to me seems like he deemed Erik as not Wakandan enough and its backed up by the Queen saying "he has no rights here"
She had to say that because she sees Erik as a threat to HER sons rise to power.
Erik isn’t Wakandan enough though.
His mom is American, he is an intelligence operative, he is a soldier who kills a lot, has no respect or care for Wakanda or it’s traditions,
And his dad was a traitor to the state, or however you call it, and did attempt to kill Zuri.
I don’t feel like Erik would realistically have any rights in Wakanda as a citizen or member of the ruling family.
I'm not sure evil is the right way to describe that. Thoughtless or uncaring or distracted perhaps but that's not the same as evil.
also because well he wasnt born in Wakanda. its like your long lost older brother just came into your house and started bossing you around, like bitch we dont know you.
@@malirabbit6228 That's the point. She basically reduced him to not being human enough because she went on full defense mode. Not because her sons were the better candidate. But because she wanted to ensure that it was "her own" that won the system. She only cared about the system as much as it benefitted her personally. No different than the self-destructive thinking that led them to killing each other in the name of "justice". She is just as much of a hypocrite.
“I love depictions of people in handcuffs who are still completely in control” thank you for articulating that so well. Yes. Yes it is very good
low key thought of Dr. Hannibal
"just kidding we're vegetarians" was such a great line. The exact humor that was needed in that space
If they're vegetarian, then the Jibari tribe must spend tons of time working out to make up for the lack of a standard protein source. Unless they have a plant where they live that naturally has protien.
@@TheZamaron Milk and eggs. They're vegetarian, not vegan.
@@hyenaedits3460 good point.
Shoutout Winston Duke! ❤️🇹🇹
The idea behind that was that they follow Gorillas (spirit animal type thing) who are predominantly vegetarian.
That first quote "the things that we do that are destructive is because we are hurting and we want positive change and we're doing it the only way we know how" is so beautiful omg
Still destructive. Still genocide if murdering everyone cuz race., still wrong.
Such when the first answer isn't to form peaceful organization and negotiation., and as seen for REAL changes as with again MLK Jr or Rosa Parks , whos names often misused by said various domestic terrorist groups as have been undoing their work since 2015 or 16.
We'd basically solved the race issue and no one cared if an adult's private life they were gay vs straight or whatever for it such things kept where appropriate and not hurting kids.
Then "Progressivism" got popular and got to work destroying the Progresses made.
Something that stabbed me right through the heart was when Killmonger said: "...kill those in power, and their children..." Because he's so consumed with grief and hatred for the murder of his father he has no idea he would be condemning hundreds, if not thousands of children to the same pain he's suffering.
And condemning Wakanda from any successor because eventually he would have died, leaving Vibriuam to be released into the world for more destruction
Basically, he was setting up his own destruction. He's right but the cycle of violence is always wrong. Repeating the same pain you felt towards others is NEVER justice.
@@ExeErdna the scale he was pushing for was way off and if you remove the outside stuff the world was going to come after Wakanda anyways.
It's how Wakanda choose to and how they will handle it that should have the through line if Chadwick death and Covid not happend
@@danielland3767 The problem is Wakanda was doomed the moment they showed themselves in the MCU. We've seen how weak they really are.
@@ExeErdna I agree to a extent, Wakanda is far from weak, they just over isolated themselves into a handicap position
Pleasee do a video on zuko from avatar. his Redemption arc is so amazingly done and the animation style is sooo beautiful. i would love to see you guys talk about avatar
And in case they don't realize yet, NOT THE MOVIE. The series.
I 2nd this!
Yes, Avatar: The Last Airbender
This would be a gold mine of character development
Idk if you watched the ep where they address all the Avatar Last Airbender requests (i kinda dont remember which ep tbh LOL) but they said they would love to cover Avatar alongside other highly requested things like Steven Universe, but they cant because its a bit too long and too much for them to research and prepare. They like movies because they're only a couple hours long and they occasionally do limited series / seasons like Arcane or Moon Knight if they put in a little more elbow grease. But those highly requested kinds of shows that everyone wants them to talk about can add up to weeks, even months of watching and they have full jobs and whole families to tend to, so sadly, us as fans are kinda losing this one LOL
Killmonger's psychology is, "I've only ever seen pain, oppression, abandonment, violence, and death, and I want it to stop. So I'll use the only tools I know and stop the pain by inflicting it upon the oppressors until they yield, even if that means they die and their children die with them."
Whereas T'Challa's psychology is, and always is, "I understand you. I'm listening, I see where you're coming from, I truly understand your pain. And I understand the need to change things -- not just *your* need, but the need for all of us to change things. And I promise, we will help you; it will be slower than you hoped, and maybe harder, but in the end, if we do it this way, your pain will be reduced, and not just transferred to someone else's heart."
And that is why in What If...?, when T'Challa becomes Star Lord, he even reforms Thanos. And that is why T'Challa is the hero and Killmonger, though his goals are relatable and he makes good points, is the villain. And that is why T'Challa is the rightful ruler of Wakanda.
Rest in Power, King Chadwick ✊🏾💗
Nice analysis
Beautifully put.
both make valid arguments, but only one had the just answer to the problem, while the other was a destructive answer to the problem.
Killmonger's would olny leand to more people dieing on all sides. Eye for an eye . Less the world go blind.
@@PepperKatLancer in a way it’s almost Joker vibes. The world wasn’t to kind to Kilmonger, now, out of revenge, he wants to set it on fire to feel self satisfied.
"Hurt people hurt people."
Michael B Jordan and Chadwick Boseman are both SO good in this. Love this episode.
@@suezcontours6653 You're legit right. Very good point.
In my experience as someone's who been psychically and emotionally abused, even bullied back when I went to school, I had my life threatened several times by family members and one of my aunts stalked me for two years and she let me know it. I was sexually assaulted several times when I was twelve years old by someone who I thought was a friend, I can say that saying isn't always true because I would never want to hurt anyone since I don't want anyone going through what I went through however I can only speak for myself since I hate being accused of hurting anybody just because it happened to me.
@@ashleyyoung6107 I think that's fair too ... nothing is ever a 100% hard and fast rule. It can depend on if someone dwells on their hurt, or tries to work through it. The hurt lingers regardless, I'm not saying "aww, forget it and move on." Thanks for sharing, and I hate that you dealt with all of that! I appreciate your openness.
@@ashleyyoung6107 The phrase doesn't mean "people who are hurt end up hurting others". It's the other way around: it means people who hurt others usually do so because they themselves were hurt first.
@@ashleyyoung6107 I'd say you're strong for that. Very strong.
Love the small details in this movie, like how Eric speaks Wakandan with a noticeable American accent. It's such a contrast to all the other royals in the scene. Bc him being a product of both cultures is so important to who he is as a character, of course that's how he speaks!
As a First Nations person of So-Called-Canada..a LOT of things in this movie resonated with me. Lol ESPECIALLY that art gallery scene (minus the poisoning😂) where Killmonger says "how do you think your ancestors got this?". I gotta tell ya, there's nothing more painful than standing in a white walled gallery or museum staring at an object that rightfully belongs to you and your ancestors and your not even allowed to touch it. Never mind that! But often you have to pay to even SEE these objects!!! Its PREPOSTERUS!! Lol all this to say that Killmonger fulfilled a long held desire of mine to just smash through the glass and take back what was stolen.
By dominating and subjugating a people, that's how they got them. People use "stole" all the time but forget those things were "spoils of war". They weren't stolen, they were taken after a people was utterly defeated and triumphed over. People simply hate the victor, plain and simple.
Not even just that but most of these artifacts are so intricately designed and decorated by our ancestors that I don’t those in England would’ve ever been able to replicate
@tiamarrow6366 You are aware craftsmanship was a universal thing right?
White people are allowed to keep their craftsmanship. Traditional African and First Nation peoples had their craftsmanship stolen from them and now they have to pay. That is the crux of the issue here.
I'm Native American and I have to tell you to stop being a 🐱.
I actually wrote a mini paper for Psychology class on Michael B. Jordan's performance and how it affected him mentally off-screen. Apparently he got into the role of Killmonger so much that the despair of the character sort of bled into Jordan's actual mind, and he was in a bad spot for a while. He even needed therapy/counseling because he was feeling depressed. Just from a movie role he had! Props to him for selling the character and also getting help when he needed it.
Wish heath ledger had gone to therapy instead of taking sleeping pills :(
Makes sense. They're not just movie problems and he had to spend a lot of time absorbing our real life issues and trauma rather than trying to somewhat block them out to function like we usually do.
Can I read your paper?
I heard something similar happened to Adam Driver when playing Kylo Ren.
This is way such actors are, justifiably, paid so much. That is quite a mental sacrifice.
The thing about Killmonger is that he is justifiably anger, but that anger manifests as directionless cruelty. He says as much himself at the end; he’s lashing out against *the whole world.* He really doesn’t care about Justice, he just wants to always be hurting *somebody.*
Like BLM
@@suezcontours6653 incorrect and ignorant
@@jeepersmcgee3466 *partially incorrect and largely ignorant.
He should be far more angry at wakanda since they let slavery happen they could have done something about it.
There tech was far beyond any other nation and yet they let it it doesn't really make that much sense for him to just focus his anger of white people.
He should be angry at both. Also why didn't the old king take his nephew with him the story would have been drastically different ,why didn't we see them acknowledging that having ritualistic fights for the throne is kinda backwards since it almost lead to world domination why isn't that acknowledged.
@@rogerjack18 separate that into sentences please.
Let's not leave out T'Challa's journey in Captain America: Civil War, where he was in the revenge path and then steps back to see the pain of Zemo and Bucky. I think that gets him to this place of compassion where he can change the world by understanding Killmonger. 🥰
I actually really wanna see Magneto villain therapy.
I think what broke me for Killmonger’s death is when T’Challa initially beats him, you can see that Killmonger knows he’s lost his goal to liberate the world, and that all that is left is the personal and emotional struggles he’s be carrying since his father’s death. It’s like, you can almost see “Killmonger” being striped away and The kid who grew up and Oakland is all that’s left
If only Hitler had a brother to defeat him in combat. We might have been spared WWII.
You are oddly sympathetic of black Hitler. Killmonger had literally zero redeeming qualities. He doesn't even regret killing his own girlfriend off.
@@CoryTheRaven WW2 would've happened anyway, not just in the German-Polish Jewish Holocaust package.
@@BroJo676 ah, so it takes more than an absolute monarch violently humbling his brother to avert a global genocide?
yeah at the end of it he was that same kid holding his father.
One thing I’ve always liked about this movie is that the struggle for the main character didn’t come from his own mistakes, but the mistakes of his predecessors. It’s such a reversal from a lot of popular movies and stories nowadays. T’Challa is an honorable and upstanding person at every point, just trying to do what’s right. I LOVE that, I think it’s awesome to have a character that people can fully try to emulate and understand without having to pick and choose from moments that aren’t as respectable.
T'Challa is completely indoctrinated in the lies his Father taught him about the World.
A similar analogy might be the Millions of White Racists, indoctrinated by their parents and communities into White Supremacy. Would you call them "Honorable"?!
It’s a taboo. People Never want to be accountable for sins of the father. Restitution and reparation feels like Losing something. So for many they’d rather turn a blind eye than acknowledge the pain caused by mistakes of predecessors not seeing why that’s empowering for all
The one thing about black panther I don't think gets enough attention is also about how past generations failed the new one. In the spirit realm T' Challah sees his father and confronts him about what he was doing and about what he knew. His father tells him it's for the greater good but T'Challah knows thats BS and refuses him and sets out to make it right. Eric goes and sees his father in the spirit realm and the only real takeaway is that he was sorry, for almost putting his fued with his brother above him, for not taking him to Wakanda. He is proud at his sons ability and how that he grew up but devastated that this is the path he chose, because he didn't do better for him, and now his son will be abandoned just like him.
I see the argument made that Nakia has been making the same argument as Killlmonger and that she should have been listened to. The reason why that could not work is because the fear of change outweighs the reality of the need for change. What they've been doing has always worked for them and they've always prospered, relatively peacefully. It wasn't until T'challa was shown the physical manifestation of the danger of inaction that he was able to truly understand that their inaction leads to a preventable suffering that breeds more violence.
I actually really appreciate how aware you all are and are willing to get out side guest to appear when appropriate.
Thank you :)
@@CinemaTherapyShow If you guys are going to do a T'Chala cinema therapy, you have to bring a black man who was born and raised in Africa, because the reason why we African Americans resonate with Monger is because not only our ancestors survived slavery, but also because we have to live in a predominant white country, or continent!!! And that alone changes your whole perspective!!!
@Beth_9 I agree, though I wonder with the new movie if they might do Shuri for discussion of development of a character. In many ways her journey from a written standpoint as someone who wasn't intended to be a lead role but also a psychological standpoint about how different cultures engage with loss. I haven't fully seen the film yet but all the reviews I've watched suggest they dealt with African grief very well. I lost my grandmother this year and her funeral and mourning process, is different to my European side completely.
This was not a good expansion on a race war starting villain
Probably the only other villain I can think of who brought the same level of tragic motives and almost self-righteous zeal to the table while still threatening to oppress or kill billions of people is Magneto. Killmonger and Magneto are probably two of the best comic-book movie villains ever for that reason, and I'd love to see a Villain Therapy episode about Magneto.
Exactly..the point these two are making is still relevant..if a group oppress another the oppressed will someday try to kill those who oppressed them or watched them being oppressed..
THese 2 are great as we see them come from a horrible past of oppression, they genuinely want good for their people, but both look to start a war for their people rather then try to fix or change the system peacefully.
I would put MCU Thanos up there also. The best villains see themselves as the heroes of their own story.
@@JMD501 Thanos is indeed a compelling and interesting villain but his backstory and motivation are very different. He's not out to "protect his own" or "take revenge on oppressors." He's a Zero-sum-philosophy extremist who views himself as a force of nature.
Nihilistic villains like that can work really well too. It's also why I like Agent Smith so much.
Can say the same for Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader / Anikin I guess then?
He only wanted to save his wife and to bring order to the galaxy is all., right? :)
And one can say that old Palps did a bang up job. Just like the others too bad about all the.. murder and stuff I guess? XD
I met Stacey on a cruise in 2021 and he was genuinely just one of the nicest people. He's such a cool dude, and I'm excited that he's part of this episode
I think the best line about Killmonger comes from “What if?” T’challa, in the ancestral plane, tells Killmonger, “you believe the cure for human suffering is more suffering.”
To your point about him using the colonizer's methods I love how he becomes so entrenched in the idea that he becomes one himself. When he says "The sun will never set on the Wakandan Empire" it's a direct reference to how the Roman Empire and later the British Empire were referenced. It subtly let's you know how wrong his tactics are and how blind he is to it.
Truth. Along with the entire notion of somehow those TODAY should have to pay for things that Some OTHER Somewhen Other did or didn't do.... based again off what who is what skin or things, again as with the matter of People who all the world had slaves which was bad but again also the matter of those who DID the Slaving of their own race and people as often has been the case in all of history; often that those who are slaved are done so by others of their own nations or 'races,' That if things paid for past things then should not those who DID the slaving pay out the most of all and first? if they are to say of others after as has been., and if not why should the ones that Did the Slaving be excused?
As the same for those who Make and who Sell drugs to kids to be held at least higher than those who "just" buy and use thus paying into things., but it still are those Making and SELLING who are still to account the most as else the users wouldn't have had stock to buy from that is off the street., and to kids outside of schools.
Black or White or Else,, Gay , Straight , Bi , Trans , Pans or Int+ , Folks are just Folks., and the same point that the same accountabilities should apply instead of like with Ezra Miller.
"We All Lift Together," We Are per as We Do. o7
Yup. It also doesn't seem to occur to him that, if he oppresses other people as payback for what they/their ancestors have done to him/his people, THEY might in turn rise up and do the same thing BACK, continuing a cycle of bloodshed.
Also the Spanish empire, "the empire where the sun never sets" is a description of it taken straight from history.
in the end . you die a hero or see your slef become the villan.
@@ZGuy0fSci I know the white man were the first to Abolish slavery.
In an interview, Chadwick Boseman said that T'Challa's father, T'Chaka was the villain of this movie. Rest in peace to Boseman. And Jordan was amazing in this film. I love this movie!!!
Killmonger was the first time I ever cried at a villains death. Like it felt really wrong, but you knew it had to be done.
I would not feel wrong. Bad guy is bad guy. Don't overthink it 🐱.
I think another thing that adds depth to Killmonger's portrayal is that when he speaks about his plans, or talks about his reasoning, you can catch glimpses of his child self who started his journey. The part showed here about how vibranium will solve it all, that motive to swap oppressor and oppressed, the motive to go back to Wakanda and become the ruler, the lack of nuance or compassion and compromise, etc. To me, I hear that hurt little boy alone in Oakland
Killmonger is right in a lot of ways, but the way he goes about it is the problem, large part in response to his trauma and loss. Really makes you wonder what would have happened had he had the chance to grow up in Wakanda. He would probably have been a visionary leader. 😪
Killmonger was saying the EXACT same thing that Nakia was saying without the violence. She had the solution all along. People are ignoring her on purpose because she's a woman.
Nakia wanted Wakanda to reveal themselves to help people with their technology. Killmonger literally wanted to become Hitler; there is a huge difference. Killmonger was only doing the things he did because he just wanted to punish the world for hurting him not out of any sort of morals.
@@suezcontours6653 Nope. No he wasn't. Not at all. It is ALARMING the number of people who took this away from the movie... the idea that "oh Killmonger just wanted what Nakia wanted he was just too violent". They were motivated by different things and wanted very different outcomes. Killmonger wanted to divide, avenge and conquer. Nakia wanted to provide, protect and prosper. Killmonger is EVIL. He is cunning and ruthless. He uses the call to action of racial justice and righting historic wrongs as vital pretext for a fascist, supremacist and expansionist agenda. Which is smart writing because we are never short of such autocrats in our post-colonial African history.
@@suezcontours6653 the challenge of monarchy is that unless you have the right parents, you don’t matter politically.
Nakia may very well have been trying to marry her way into power instead of usurping the way Killmonger does.
The story from her perspective would have been amazing - she may have little love for T’challa and may have even hated him, but she knew that the way to make change.
Seems unlikely - more likely she’d already set the stage for T’challa’s change of heart and Killmonger’s coups just provided the political opportunity to make it happen.
That power dynamic of the monarch (T’chaka) protecting the system, the visionary advocating change, and the future ruler stuck between the two.
RIP Chadwick Boseman. The stories that could have been told.
No worries, I guess, making those stories about Shuri with Nakia as the advisor and the mentor rather than the love interest isn’t typical Hollywood, but that’s not a bad thing!
@@Justanotherconsumer Um, you're obviously white. And you wonder why Africans are suspicious of you lot. Nakia wasn't trying to marry her way into power. She was literally on the field freeing people. T'Chala was the one who was trying to make her settle down and be by his side. She wasn't happy with that. Weren't you paying attention? The way you worded it is bothersome to me because this is an African Kingdom. Women do seek marriage for security so Nakia would be in her right to try and marry him if that's what she wanted. her ideas were good.
The scene where he shouts how the world took everything from him and just the nuances in how he executes the dialogue and how his tone waivers just enough was such great acting. It showed how the character, as hardened and as driven as he was to execute his vision with such a stronghold wasn't impervious to the hurt he experienced.
This moment described the core of his character, he's living trauma..pain and anger.
Yea he had to have therapy after this role. He really identified with those feelings and it haunted him.
Wtf lmfao his acting was straight garbage
How did the world take everything from him though? Dude was a Navy SEAL, had multiple degrees from MIT, and was resourceful enough to put together an elite team to effortlessly rob the London Museum, travel to Africa, take out an international arms dealer, and waltz into the most technologically advanced nation on Earth.
Dude clearly had resources, and at the very least, was so cunning that nothing could be taken from him. He could have been anything and done anything, but instead he just chose to be bitter.
@@LordOfAllusion he conquered all this by his own merit without help, the world didn't give him anything, he got all this just to get revenge and help his people...he needed his roots, his dad, a home.. not the superficial things you are mentionning...
This was amazing. It would have been nice to see a second guest, a black therapist at the end to talk about how to heal. Because there are black therapists out there who taking in consideration the collective trauma of the community that has been passed down. Still amazing, guys, thank you! 🙏
I completely agree with this
This episode was greatly cathartic for me. Thank you, guys, for being so sensible and respectful and all around amazing people 💝
You're so kind!
On the one hand, I found him a very sympathetic villain … except for the part where he coldly shoots his girlfriend because “she’s in the way”. She’s a fellow victim in his framework, yet he still considers her disposable. 🤨. So is he *really* “looking after his people”?
Black Americans in a nutshell. Always think of themselves as victims but then turn around and commit way more violence on their own than any KKK could accomplish. That's what I thought when I saw that.
Exactly - thats whats so warped about his philosophy. Its what makes him villianous even though he has the moral high ground
@@tysirrah He has no moral high ground when he kills 3 people while pursuing his goals, 2 of whom weren't a threat to him.
@@suezcontours6653 um...i agree with you. I just said thats what makes him villianous....
To me, that was lazy writing. The writers knew that he was making a lot of sense, so they have to sprinkle in some evil acts to make sure the audience doesnt completely side with him. It's a shame because I would much prefer them leave out these acts to make us even more conflicted towards the end.
Really, REALLY appreciate that y'all took the time and effort to include subtitles for the clips you used. I can not tell you how often I've struggled with actually processing everything between you and the movie, and the auto subtitles were only 3/4 helpful. Accessibility is EVERYTHING, thank you so much for recognizing the need, and thank you to whoever took the time to transcribe this all.
Thank you for your comment. I'm glad that the captions are helpful.
- Anna
Right there with you! Thanks guys!
It's not only about accessibility. Movies are shot for viewing in cinema, where loud is loud and a whisper is still audible. Watching movies with subtitles is just common sense, when you are watching at home.
@@lollertoaster what you are describing IS accessibility-the act of making something more accessible. For anyone, not just disabled people, but literally anyone who would benefit from gaining access to the thing being made more accessible.
Subtitles are also great for people that aren't native English speakers like me, so thank you as well.
When his dad said “no tears for me?” It choked me up!
I need that Cinema Therapy made a "Hero Therapy" of Shuri in Wakanda forever. And also from "jake Sully" from Avatar
If you want to get the scoop on Jake Sully check out the podcast episode "World Tree Centre" from Chapo Trap House. It's on RUclips :
Freaking Michael B. Jordon worked this SO HARD on so many levels. I love the fact that he had a hand in the costume design being like Vegeta, and oppressed anti-hero in anime.
Vegeta was oppressed?
@@lysanderxx1664 frieza duh…😂
@@husshodi that's not the same...
@@universalpower419 op·pres·sion
/əˈpreSHən/
Learn to pronounce
noun
prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control.
"a region shattered by oppression and killing"
@@universalpower419 the sayan race were slaves.
I actually shed tears for Killmonger in his final moments.
None of his actions should be excused, but you always see the broken little boy who was not allowed to be apart of his culture of Wakanda, shunned and abandoned by his uncle, and who experienced the loss of his father, making him feel more alone and in despair than he already was.
I don’t defend the actions of the man, but I do pity the child that was never loved and accepted by his people the way he should have been.
Like they say in writing. Create empathy, not sympathy.
They excused Tony Starks actions tho
@@kingjoeblack5 How
@@djroscurro9859 by allowing him to operate as a superhero despite him spending most of his life as the MERCHANT OF DEATH
@@kingjoeblack5 At least Tony realized the destruction he was causing and shutdown manufacturing weapons and tried to do better. Killmonger would have just made things worse.
This was one of the reasons why I really found The Black Panther and especially T'Challa a very compelling character. In MCU most of the heroes/heroines in fiction are leaders but very few of them were also actual Government Leaders and even fewer were put into the position of a monarch. Seeing T'Challa have to balance being a hero and an actual government leader in a new age is extremely compelling amd as much as I like how honest and true Captain America is Captain Erica has the luxury of just being a soldier a war hero atleast in the MCU he doesn't have to weigh the calamity of ideology and morality over governance. And also you sew with how mature T'Challa is in comparison to most if not all the Avengers and especially the Avenger with the closest circumstance to him Thor.
What I really appreciate about this film is just how close T'Challa was to becoming Killmonger. We saw that nature in Civil War bubble up inside of him. We see that vengeance nearly takes over him, but it doesn't because he has a support system. He has people around him to help him grieve. Killmonger didn't.
Both of them have a strong sense of justice, and they both make valid points. T'Challa even learns from Killmonger and agrees with him that what his father did was wrong. But that is why T'Challa and Killmonger's hero-villain relationship is so compelling. T'Challa realizes he and Killmonger are the different sides of the same coin, and he takes the opportunity to acknowledge his own wrongdoings.
He lets himself be wrong and that makes him stronger in the end. Killmonger never stopped to consider his execution was wrong, unlike T'Challa. That refusal to be wrong, the refusal to grow, is what was his downfall.
The destruction of the heart-shaped herb was his "villain ball" moment to me. Rather than help the disenfranchised he raised himself above others.
This
@@Firegen1 Exactly. He represents these black power movements who don't actually want to uplift people but be above them
@@suezcontours6653 aka BLM the movement VS BLM the ""charity"". One wants to spread equality, understanding, and awareness of the failures of the current system. The other embezzles hundreds of millions of dollars from VICTIMS to buy mansions whilst deflecting and conflating criticism of the latter to be criticism of the former.
@@GabeSweetMan Capitalism in a nutshell
@@suezcontours6653 don’t confuse a movie with reality. The BLM movement isn’t putting black people above others.
One thing I've always thought about between Okoye and W'kabi: Okoye was the head of the royal guard, so her world view is very Wakanda-centric. Meanwhile W'kabi was the head of the border guard, which gave him more of a world view of the outside world, which makes him and the other border guards allying with Killmonger perfectly in character.
Definitely
I disagree. Okoye was undoubtedly more worldly and had more experience with life outside of Wakanda. You are right that the nature of their jobs influenced how they approached what was ultimately the same values, though. Okoye was regularly exposed to other people and cultures in diplomatic environments. This meant she saw a path for civil advocacy and the importance of measured responses to threats in order to put the people of Wakanda first. W’kabi’s experience largely lied in Wakanda and in the conflict between African nations that has historically plagued the continent (thanks to the influence of European nations). Because of this, he had a do or die mentality, a reflection of his day to day experience. There is no negotiation or moderate response in border patrol. Unfortunately, becoming the aggressor (visually) doesn’t typically end with the world throwing their hands up and submitting. His way didn’t consider the world and their response because he is not worldly.
@@Ineverusemychannel very impressive take on okoye and wkabi but both are flawed tho, wkabi believed in brute force, okoye remained loyal to the new king erik just because he won a duel and it was the tradition( very wakanda centric) while nakia refused to serve a tyrant for moral reasons( progress vs tradition)
oh my gosh, stacey! I loved watching him from Studio C. So glad he's apart of this video.
Me too!! Aaaaaaa
I knew I recognized your guest! Studio C is by far my favorite sketch comedy group of all time, hands down. It’s cool to know Stacey is also an amazing human being!
Michael B. Jordan is such a gifted actor, you can feel Killmonger's pent up rage radiate through the screen. While you may not agree with his actions, you can at least understand them, to some extent.
Absolutely this. Have you seen F.D. Signifier's video on Black Panther, Trina?
@@Firegen1 had no idea he did a video on it! Gonna definitely check that out later
@@Regmuslima It's so good. Literally went out yesterday. It needs all the eyeballs
Absolutely! The entire cast are a powerhouse, it's a gift of a film, no weak links!
You don't agree with his methods, but you can't help but sympathise with him
@@Firegen1 Greetings, Firegen1. Unfortunately, I haven't seen it yet, but I hope to as soon as possible!
"Hey Auntie" was improvised and they left it in. Classic! I love Michael B.
The actor did an amazing job of bringing Killmonger to life - every issue brought up is treated with respect and gifted with incredible acting moments that are sure to make this one of the most memorable movies in the MCU!
I love the scene between Killmonger and his father. I love how his father took responsibility for what Killmonger became instead of blaming the world.
Sterling K. Brown had such a small role in the movie but he killed it. He really does elevate everything he's in.
"The Fall from Grace " is what I call T'challa standing up to his father scene and it is my most favorite scene. I absolutely love the juxtaposition from the first time T'challa goes to the sprite world, when it is at nighttime and it all mystical and T'challa is happy to see his dad and make him proud. Verse after Kilmonger has told him what his father has done, and now he is back in the spirt world. This time it's day time the mystical aspect is gone, because his eye are open he see's what his father has done and is off the superhero pedestal T'challa has put his father on his entire life. T'challa finally sees the flawed man his father was and the history and politics that lead his father to make those decision. It's truly a devastating moment to have your idol fall from grace espeacially your father.
Thank you for acknowledging something that everyone in the African American community seems to loose sight of in the moment
Fun fact: "Hey Aunty" was improvised by the actor.
I loved the scene where Killmonger takes off his shirt and you see the ritual scars, showing his appreciation/adherence to a culture he lost.. it was very impactful (and a stark contrast/juxtaposition to T'Challa's more tame appearance.)
I was working in a movie theater when this movie came out and it was so beautiful to just see the black community embrace this movie come out in traditional wear bring their whole family and support this movie because this movie meant so much to them... It brought people together and I will never forget that it was just beautiful..
Just too bad about the racism stuff I guess and domestic terrorist groups like ANTIFA and BLM, who use and abuse what _could_ have been to spread hate instead of equality. That a Black or otherwise Ethno Supremacist Hypernationalist Isolationalist State that would or could rule the world is.. questionable if the same is seen as bad depending on skin.
That it is made about skin vs people as people Lifting Together to bring Equal Accountability no matter their skin or nationality; does reduce things.
*also I'm betting that by saying such views that favor Egalitarian rather than racism basises folks are already going to assume what skin I have or other such things.., per proving my point. No matter what the real case is.
With the new moving coming out being even worse for things.
All groups deserve to have their heroes, and all groups heroes deserve to be allowed to be celebrated by anyone of any group, without the need for it to be per "Representation" ahead of Quality, Meritocracy, and Production. That Superman of whatever 'verse is Black or White or Green or otherwise to not should be all there is for things.
When it is made only about "Because they are _blank_ " only or again black vs Whiate vs whatever, and when one is replaced by another when it is ok.
TLDR, "We All Lift Together" or we don't and if so what then of things., and who is to decide. And what of those who are not the ones who have the power? When instead we could take mutual pride in both ourselves and eachother as people and our groups we are a part of rather than apart from as enemies that have to fight for power of control.
I'm for Egalitarianism and Mutualism together instead for real progress., not what Progressivism has been in fact instead about.
I just hope others can be as well that we regain said lost progresses we'd had made and go back to making more for the good of all involved with more able doable about the doing of harm and wrongful exclusion.
What the fuck is wrong with you people.
Yes supporting the very ethical and morality righteous DISNEY corporation. Ahhh how lovely...
Youc sound like an extremely naive idealist who doesn't consider anything past the surface.
Grow up
👀
I'm not fighting politics in this comment section but really the shit you said? About BLM? Its sick and I hope you learn better
Awesome take on Killmonger. It’s also worth noting that when he says, “the sun will never set on the Wakandan empire,” he’s literally paraphrasing the line from British colonizers, “the sun will never set on the British empire.” He’s absolutely right about the problem, and he’s absolutely right about Wakanda having the power to do something about it. But the only solutions he can offer are more hatred and more destruction. Such a great character.
Yeah, Killmonger doesn't want a world where everyone is equal. He wants revenge and to become the oppressors.
Watching Stacey nod at 25:37 when Killmonger says "I learned from my enemies" and then the next bit... I feel like he could do a whole video on this movie by himself.
Thank you, CT, for putting this together and having Stacey on!
P.s. Would love to see Enola Holmes broken down with a focus on independence and family dynamics.
I think the most telling thing about Killmonger's psychology (and i cannot take credit for this observation, read it on TV Tropes) is that his version of the Ancestral Plane is just that little apartment in Oakland, with only his father there. And him switching in the scene between the boy he was and the man he is. In many ways, he's still trapped in that place, in the pain, and can't or won't move on. If you want to get metaphysical, there's the possibility raised by not confirmed that he and his dad don't get to go the Ancestral Plane proper, but are stuck in some kind of Purgatory. Or it could just be his psychological interpretation of the experience. Either way, really makes you feel for him, the idea of being trapped in the worst moment of your life, and everything you do is, in some way, an attempt to break out of that trap.
We appreciate the fact that you’ve really gone into detail of this particular villain’s complex dynamics. Somehow it really kept us captivated until the end.
Amazing how you got that from 5 minutes of it
@@suezcontours6653 Suez oh for sure, I'm just saying sophia could only have watched 5 minutes of the video when she commented.
Living in Oakland, I really have to just commend Michael B. Jordan on his performance and representation of people here in the city and in other cities throughout the country. That pain and anger and hurt and sense of betrayal is real. The people here feel it every day, growing up accustomed to it. When BP came out, even seeing it in theaters here was such a huge moment. I could feel the story he was portraying not only because I'm in the city where Killmonger is from, but also because his acting is so raw and depicts the feelings of a lot of our people. Many of us go down the same path that Killmonger did, but don't get the opportunity to see that light at the end of the tunnel or feel that compassion from "the enemy". Watching these scenes again brought up even more of those feelings, can't wait for the sequel! Thanks to y'all for your great thoughts and for breaking down Killmonger's story.
I don't wanna step all over the valid points you guys made, but whenever you asked what other way there was I just rolled my eyes and thought "wow, you're all such guys", because there was a way, and it was Nakia's way. Nakia left Wakanda to help the outside world, she pestered T'Challa to open help centers, and by the end of the movie he does what she had been asking him to do, he sees she was right, much like Killmonger was right, but Nakia had the right (or in any case better) approach. I get that this video is focused on Killmoner and T'Challa but c'mon, don't ignore Nakia like that
True true. We missed that for sure!
So good, thank you for covering this character!
Glad you enjoyed it!
In my opinion this is precisely what makes a good villain. They make you go "shit he's right" but you soon realize they go about it the wrong way. In contrast to villains who just want to do the obviously wrong thing for power or fun, these villains feel real.
They are the people we see around us in our lives. Trying to achieve good by the wrong means. Letting themselves be guided by hatred instead of true will to make right what is wrong. They see "right" as revenge, as coming out on top instead of striving for healing, equality, and forgiveness. And it's so often that this mindset is brought about by the "heroes" side of refusing to yield on their "right way", their power, their status. To not acknowledge the mistakes they made, the hurt they caused, even if it were their ancestors and not themselves necessarily.
That is why I love how T'Challa then turns around and says "he is a monster of our own making, it's our responsibility to make things right again".
What makes him a villain is not just his methods, but his solution.
He’s right about the problem. Mass murder and destruction for revenge are not just methods, they are the desired outcome, and… not heroic.
This video brings me so much joy as a black woman. There really are YT People out there trying to talk, grow and learn about our trauma. Thank you Cinema Therapy. 😊
And I get to learn because of it. I learned a lot today.
That means a lot. Thank you! ❤️
You didn't experience trauma from your ancestors
@@argus962 there is plenty of discussion about present day trauma in the film and this video. You need to stop oversimplifying and taking comments in bad faith.
@@emilymartin5418 it's not bad faith his character was a black supremacist who's goal was the eradication of white people
After hearing you guys talk about Killmonger, I would LOVE to hear more on the characters of Black Panther! Specifically Shuri, especially after Wakanda Forever. Maybe talking about her grief, after her brother and
*spoilers for Wakanda Forever*
Her mothers death. Her character is fascinating to me, and I would love to hear you guys talk about it!
She actually reminds me of Killmonger in Wakanda Forever, at the end. And I know that was like kinda the point, but her seeing HIM and not her mom or dad was so powerful because that, I feel, just fueled her anger more. Her whole family is *gone* and seeing Killmonger saying “yeah, kill him. Take your revenge” and she ALMOST does, but (like her brother) showed kindness in the end.
Anyway, would love to hear you guys talk about Shuri I think you would do it so well
Damn, when killmonger said he rather be burned and thrown to sea like his ancestors instead of being held captive... 🤧😢
What’s funny is my first though was that he’s half American and so a couple of his ancestors had to be slaves.
And obvs the other half were Wakandan and never enslaved
Except according to him he's from wakanda and they weren't ever enslaved so his ancestors were sitting pretty while they allowed their kind to be enslaved
@@Jstaman his mother is an American black woman
Aliah Personous so he only identified with his dad's side when it was convenient for him then his mom's side when it was convenient for him?
Completely ignoring that America gave him the second best life in the world only second to fictional wakanda because they have magic metal
@@Jstaman Yes. If you didn’t watch the movie, he constantly spouts lines about how black folks suffer and how he suffered because TChaka abandoned him.
But then the minute he’s in Wakanda he uses his fake war dog tattoo and his heritage with the royal family to goad TChalla into ritual combat just to become king and start a race war.
America definitely didn’t give him the best life. He was a poor black kid in Cleveland.
He probably was raised in the foster system given the cops/emt whatever would’ve had to come check out his apartment, where they would’ve found guns and his dads plan to break his mom out of jail.
Then he gets recruited and trained to topple other governments a la Black Widows wich regardless of wether you enjoy it is not the sign of a good life.
I think it's also sad because you can see all the good qualities of Killmanger as a leader and you wonder what he could've been if he wasn't so hurt and angry.
There were no good qualities of leadership in him. He only lead through fear and murder.
The good qualities being…?
He is purpose driven. He plans out how to acomplish his goals.
@@purpleemerald5299 Leadership, focus, determined 💪 are all good skills.
…So anyone with focus, determination, a purpose, and/or a plan has leadership abilities?
Not even 5 minutes into the episode and my boys are already talking about how handsome Michael is, I call that POWER
Honestly, I'm just so glad that their conversation revolved around the idea that oppression, othering people, and forcing struggle on others is the problem, not a race or a color. Wonderful review of this movie and a great chat.
Eric Killmonger is such an interesting character, i wrote a 15 page essay about him, wakanda and imagined communitys (which explores the origins of nationalism and identity). He is the embodiment of the saying "A child that is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth”. i also think its important they discuss stolen art, because he himself was a sort of stolen child.
Have you seen the Last Week Tonight on stolen artifacts? Holy hell, give them back.
@@adde9506 no I didn't but I agree!
So many things. Firstly thank you for getting a black person to add perspective. Killmonger is representative of so many things. He represents the black American experience but more importantly he is BLACK PAIN. This is why Killmonger resonated with all facets of African descended peoples. He is trauma. He is forbidden sadness because we're told as black people that we aren't supposed to be hurt. To get over ALL of our trauma without anybody trying to understand us (from a non-performative stance). He's the forbidden thought of justice through vengeance. Thank you for not demonizing him because these are real emotions and themes that black people experience.
That BLACK PAIN!!!! Killmonger broke my heart because like you said, he’s every feeling so many have felt but had to push it down.
@@khariahpayne f.d. signifier goes really deep into Killmonger's symbolism that even boils down to classism. You might want to check them out
If I'm honest I always feel more emotional over things that have to do with oppressed people and other minorities, than over my own happiness. I'm white, I've had an easy life when it comes to my ethnicity, but I've done nothing that justifies me having that easy life when so many others don't. I haven't earned it, I was just lucky enough to be born white. And it's just plain wrong that the world's like this. I truly want to help where I can, but what I'm often afraid of is coming across as being "perfomative" or like a "white savior complex" type thing, while that's diametrically opposed to what I truly feel. I just know that what I genuinely feel might not always come across like that to others, especially since I don't have the lived experience of other people to inform me better how it could come across, and then my autism also throws a wrench into it.
So I wanted to ask you, since you're the one with that lived experience and not me, what I can do to make sure I don't retraumatize people by accidentally coming across as performative or anything else that might be harmful.
I want to make people feel seen and heard because they've felt seen and heard so rarely, I want to show them that there are white people who do genuinely care more about true equality and equity than trying to be some sort of savior. As someone with my own history of not feeling seen or heard (autism, ADHD, chronic fatigue and the like) I know how much it can mean to somebody if just one person can make you feel that again. But so often I'm just afraid to try, because my whole goal is to *reduce* the pain and suffering of others, so if I screw up and hurt them I'd be undermining my own goals, so I stay silent instead.
You're under no obligation to answer of course, but I would greatly appreciate it if you could show me what I can do to genuinely make people feel seen and heard without giving them the feeling that I've got a white savior complex or anything. It's not about me. The world has revolved around white people long enough, and I want to help it revolve more about non-white people. I feel incredibly uncomfortable having these privileges that I never did anything for to earn them. I feel like I have been given a gift that was never mine to have and is coming at the cost of others. But even as I'm writing this I'm afraid that it'll come off the wrong way... please know that if it does, I had no ill intentions. I'm not here to help you as if you're some helpless little bird that I as a superior being need to save, hell no. I'm here to help y'all as your equal, as another human being that wants to stand side by side. So if anything I've said comes off the wrong way... please let me know, please tell me how to do better, because it's your voice that needs to be heard.
@@MerelvandenHurk I struggle with that too. You never want to stick your nose in where it shouldn't be, you never want to speak for others or do more harm than good. I find the best way to go about it is do your part to try and correct folks on our end of the line. Don't let people make those nasty little uncomfortable jokes that they only tell when only white people are around. Don't let people be ignorant, awful, bigoted. Become mindful of the right time to take a step aside and let people from disenfranchised groups have their voice. Don't take the spotlight from them. Listen. Educate yourself. That's doing plenty.
@@Onyxkokoro96 I just watched it and it's such a good analysis. ruclips.net/video/hQEWa5R3m4U/видео.html&ab_channel=F.DSignifier
I really appreciate the way you guys have approached some difficult and controversial topics.
I loved Michael B Jordan as Killmonger!! Plus he’s fine 😩
I can’t wait for y’all to do an episode of Villain Therapy on Namor!!
Hard same! Another 'villain' who wasn't wrong.
God, I miss Chadwick Boseman. No other actor so young exuded his gravitas and natural aura of regalness.
Having Stacy join cinema therapy is the greatest crossover event in history🙌
Yesss!!! I love him sm
ISN'T IT THOUGH?!
Yeeeeessss! I was so surprised!
I have been subscribed to you guys for a few months now & have to say this episode might be the best you've ever done. I love the balance that comes from different perspectives and that you invite guests who may be somewhat more knowledgeable on a particular subject or experience than you are (I'm black and female btw-lol). Your videos are fantastic, especially the hero/villain deep dives; keep them coming. P.S. I lost my mom a few years back and it took me a few tries to get through your Wandavision episode, but once I did, it was beautiful and cathartic, thank you for what you do.
This movie, these characters, the plot, the story, the visuals, the directing, everything, gets better and better the more you get to watch and appreciate it.
The best thing about the movie was the score
I love that Killmonger’s outfit is inspired by Vegeta from DBZ. Both are princes who seek a throne that they feel they rightfully deserve. They’re not a one-to-one comparison, but it’s cool that they added that anime element to it since Michael B. Jordan is an anime fan
Yes!!
I never noticed that, I love that now! Pride was such a big theme
They’re a lot closer than you think, killmonger wants the power to put the oppressed in power and overthrow the oppressors and, vegeta specifically on namek wants the power to overthrow his oppressor(s). However, with both of them their ideals eventually get corrupted leading to their ultimate death which changes the perspective of the hero (tchalla and goku).
@@scuffed2reckless740 That’s true; I didn’t think about Namek saga Vegeta mirroring Killmonger’s arc in Black Panther
A small detail I appreciate is that they understand how stabbing works. He pulls the object that has pierced him out in order to die. Exactly. If you are stabbed by something, then you are supposed to leave it in in order to remain more stable. Pulling it out will cause more damage and will threaten your health/life more. Just FYI.
"So what's it gonna be...be noble, like your brother? Or take care of business, like me?" - Killmonger
It’s such an interesting point I hadn’t thought of when you said “killmonger wanted to switch the oppressors and the oppressed” and I think it’s cool because that’s how you show he’s the villain, since his pain manifested into less so equality and more so oppression
“I think the best villains are the ones that have a point of view that is relatable and that you can empathize with. Sometimes it’s how far you take things to make you a villain, and not necessarily the perspective.”
What Black Panther screenwriter Joe Robert Cole did for Killmonger is absolutely incredible. You see a boy who Erk is once have lost everything, thus becomes the embodiment of flaws on the protagonist’s beliefs. T’Challa has come to the realization of the cost of secrecy when he learned the ugly truth about his father and decides to become a different kind a king Wakanda needs.
Since I am taking a film major in Sacramento State University, I’m glad to subscribe Cinema Therapy. Keep posting more videos!
Amen to that
I find this perspective confusing, because Killmonger is quite possibly the least sympathetic villain in the entire MCU from my point of view. There's a valuable point buried somewhere deep inside him, but all his actions translate into thoughtless destruction and revenge aimed at people who had nothing to do with the problems he's supposedly trying to fix.
@@Keira_Blackstone I mean, that's what it takes to be a villain. they have a point, but they're willing to go to the extreme just to point it out.
Excellent overview! Love you cinema therapy guys!🥰
AHHH I love Stacy Harkey! So glad you guys collaborated!
The thing about killmongers philosophy that he's to blinded by hatred to see is that it's a pendulum. The oppressed are always gonna wanna kill the oppressors but then they'll be the oppressors and the former oppressors will be the oppressed and it'll go back and forth and back and forth until one side wipes the other out eventually, and then they'll just find new people to oppress. The violence will get results no doubt about that. But you're closing a lot of doors and a lot of ways for things to get better. And by the end of it all there wouldn't really be a people. The bloodlust would make sure it ends at one left standing.
That is a point but it is only sensible if those doors were actually open. Considering the goal is to increase vested interest for "black" people around the world it becomes a question of what means Wakanda has that will actually work. There is no way while maintaining any form of Wakanda to do so without violence. All you get is perhaps a percentage but to what extent would that even apply within 5, 10, or even 20 years? Even at the end they open a center. What does that do for those in different areas or just can't go because of age? Form diplomatic relations with surrounding african nations? How? without unethically changing and taking over in the shadow, how would Wakanda actually create change? Threat of violence?
@@aaronmontgomery2055 The doors are unlocked except nobody wants to open them to invite you inside. The movie is saying Wakanda lead the charge and then try and different method of diplomacy that's not imperialism.
@@wesleywallace4426 Okay, so how do you open the door if the people on the other side don't want to let you in? Specifically I mean. Now we look at how effective that measure is and how quickly that would take effect and then how long that effect would make a sizable change that meets the goal. If someone said your grandchild might see it, would that be good? We can all talk about what we "should" do but the question is what would actually work and if like this movie proports, what is your responsibility to that end. If it takes until your grandchildren then how many lives would have not seen this change?
@@aaronmontgomery2055 You’re Talking in hypotheticals. You are imagining the door not allowing you in, but it is. Where are you not allowed? Go on, tell me.
Reminded me of a quote I heard once. "They're lucky that black people are looking for equality and not revenge"
Some do want the latter. Some don't want equality, but for the roles to be swapped. They want their turn at being the oppressor, as said in this video.
@@MusicLoverInTheSky Exactly. Killmonger reminded me of Eldridge Cleaver. He was a real Black Panther Party member fighting oppression but he raped women.
Absolutely
Are we looking for equality? That would sell both sides short perhaps. The downtrodden - of whatever colour - want Equity. Until they get that, nothing essential will change. The poor Whites Lyndon B. Johnson referred to in his infamous quote, had the privilege of not being treated as a poor Black man, but they were still poor, and saw poor Blacks not as fellow sufferers, but as rivals for the few crumbs that were to be had, and voted accordingly. They did not challenge their own position, but were content, at least politically, to support the status quo. That's "divide et impera", and there's still poor whites, and even more disadvantaged blacks as a result. The conditioning is real, to the extent that the minimum level for whites keeps falling as well as for Blacks. Yes, a few manage to finagle themselves out of the hole, but still nothing essentially is changing. The hierarchy is still there, and the scramble is still at the bottom, but as the bottom grows in number, one wonders when the reality of Poverty for both Blacks and Whites will be attended to? You see, as long as you are not at the top of the hierarchy, the decline continues. When will it stop? Will humanity let it stop? Or is that too hopeful? Are we stuck in that mental prison?
@@MusicLoverInTheSky The same is also happening among some feminists. And as a woman I'm part of the community that those people those people are in, and I've had more direct contact with them than with the black people who want to swap the roles (since I'm not black, so I'm not part of those communities). It just shows that at its core, race/ethnicity truly isn't the root of the issue, it's power. And in this case, the power differential is along racial lines, and on other axes it's along gender lines, or wealth lines ("eat the rich"), etc. etc. It also shows that none of these differentials are actually "true" because they can't all be right at the same time. If it's "rightful" that white people are in power but not black people, but also "rightful" that wealthy people have more power than poor people, you get into a conflict of logic when you compare a rich black man with a poor white woman for example. There's no solution to that problem, which shows that there's no reality to these differentials, it's just a construct based on power.
(Disclaimer: I'm not in any way trying to minimize the struggles of oppressed ethnicities, my goal is instead to illustrate that those struggles deserve to be ended because they should never have existed in the first place if it weren't for powerhungry people)
One thing i noticed is that when Killmonger is in the ancestral plain and his dad says "what did you find?", Killmonger replies "YOUR home" showing us that he still views it as some other place, rather than somewhere he belongs.
The way Okoye looked at her husband W'Kabi like what wahala are you bringing here. It really brings home how hurt she was in Wakanda Forever.
20:50 I love the conflict scene with Okoye and W’Kabi especially when you add the element that the characters are married
For me, the "ancestral walk" scene really makes this movie. It takes all the pieces and shows them to you, bare all. You can see in the distance the plains and skies of Wakanda and know that he knows the stories and history and the place is in his heart. But closer to him is the apartment, Oakland, the bars on the window like a cage keeping that freedom away, locking him in this place of grief and oppression. And it's truly a connection with his ancestors and not a vision or something in his own mind, he's really talking to his father. You can tell because he talks with his father but his father realizes he's not talking to his son, not to Erik, he's talking to Killmonger. In a movie of full brilliant scenes, this one is probably the brightest.