Wow. As I’m both a practicing mechanical engineer and competitive shooter this is perhaps the ABSOLUTE BEST technical breakdown series of recoil management techniques and how forces decompose on the shooter. MORE VIDS LIKE THESE PLEASE!
This was really fun!! Before this video I was watching a guy say that the friction the bullet has on the lands, and the right hand twist makes your gun jump forward and twist to the right, which made no sense. I'm glad to know at least someone is putting out good logical information.
Finally something useful! Thank you so much. Great work. This helped me to correct something about my shooting I was doing wrong and having constant fliers to the left.
Thanks Andrija! The next big series will be on trigger management. This is every bit as important, if not more so, than recoil management. I have a lot of technical things to do to get the footage for this, though!
@@TwoMinutesToTarget that would be great. It this 3 videos you have explained something that most of "experienced" shooters could not answer me, although I have 20years experience in IPSC but now I started a little bit in long range. I was making a mistake with shooting a nice group and then start shooting to the left almost the straight line and it was obvious it was because of how I hold a rifle. I tried to change technique but only on 100m but I can't wait to go to another range these days to try it little bit further so I can notice the difference. Thank you and keep the videos coming, I like them because it is short and concrete not a half and hour of BS as many other 👏
@@AndrijaR Thanks again. The trigger stuff will make a big difference for quite a few people. I cut my group size by a third after I did some advanced training on trigger management.
I wish you would have gone into some coaching cues around 'soft shoulder'. I'm sold on the explanation, but would have liked some actual advice on how to achieve it.
Funny you should mention this - a day after you posted this, I was out at a private range with a friend of mine (whom I'm trying to get into ELR - I think he's hooked...) and he was asking the same question. The problem is that some of the things that are treated as gospel in shooting "stance" - like loading the bipod, pulling the rifle into your shoulder - are at direct odds with absorbing recoil. With pulling into your shoulder, for example, it is very difficult - and takes a lot of practice - to isolate your bicep (the primary pulling muscle) from your pectoral muscle. This leads to your pecs being engaged (harder), which is the opposite of what you want to absorb recoil. When shooting ELR, I like to be completely relaxed. Engaging your bicep (and pecs) means you are not relaxed. Likewise, loading a bipod means you are not relaxed - I find it to be the opposite of relaxing while prone. My solution? Screw loading the bipod. My most stable bipod is the Phoenix, which has ski feet. If it didn't take its own trailer to haul around, it would be my every-shot bipod. Since I don't always like using it, my second favorite is the daddy Atlas with... you guessed it... ski feet. If it only had smaller distance between the leg detents, it would be the perfect bipod. As for pulling back into my shoulder, with heavy recoiling rifles I do think you need some of this - shooting free recoil can work with light recoiling rifles, I don't like it with heavy. For this, I put most of my muscle engagement into my three "grasper" fingers (middle finger, whatever the finger down from your middle finger is called, and the pinky). Your body is made to engage finger muscles without engaging your whole arm. So, I snug into the rifle a bit and pull back with those three fingers. Doing so will engage your forearm muscles, which will naturally engage your bicep a small amount, but will not progress further than that to a meaningful amount, leaving your pecs to absorb better. New video coming out today in a series I'm calling The Anatomy of a Shot - I could add this topic to that series, or perhaps an addendum to this series. The problem is that meaningful content takes a lot of bandwidth, and I have precious little of it these days.
Great demomstration and information.Im so glad Isawthis in shoulder tension.Growing up was always taught to hold it tight.Since Ive been shooting prone now Ive seen its so correct to hold it tight.Thanks
Wow. This is the video(s) I've spent days looking for on managing my recoil for PRS shooting. Really appreciate the work you put into this. I think I've found the answer to my problem and the best possible solution. Thank you!
is it possible the "not so much" lateral movement is because by holding the rifle, your forearm, upper arm, and rifle stock formed a triangle that stabilized the rifle from horizontal movements? Maybe you can try two sets of experiments one with a very loose grip another one with a tight grip
Thanks 6.5x47! In the next couple months I'll be putting out a trigger management video (or videos) that I think will be really good. I need some new video equipment first, though.
This is all interesting information, well done, and seemingly scientifically accurate. Except for one thing at the end...... You came to the conclusion that windage movement could not occur because the bullet is not in the barrel long enough. So tell how it is in the barrel long enough to see elevation movement, but not long enough to see windage movement? Is the bullet not in the barrel the same length of time when considering this phenomenon? How can it be long enough to move one way, but not long enough to move the other? I have 2 precision rifles, that WILL, without a doubt, see significant movement to the left (right shooter) if I have my shoulders non-parallel as you show/describe in these videos. One of them will see a bunch, like 2-3" at 100yds. So I can tell you that your conclusion here is incorrect. As a fellow engineer, I think I must point out to you that you attempted to come to a conclusion about a general phenomenon while having a data set of one. Even you must admit that this is a flawed conclusion when following a scientific process. It would have been accurate for you to say that, in this one instance, with this one rifle, with this one shooter doing these specific things, these were the results. But that is not what you did, you instead made a generalized statement that improper position will not affect windage accuracy. I can 100% guarantee you, and prove to you, that your generalized statement on this subject is incorrect.
Great videos. From my experience the mass of the rifle and possibly CG height relative to bore axis are more important than how the shooter resist the recoil. Back to your soft spring analogy the rifle has to move pretty far to get any meaningful force from someones shoulder and by that time the bullet has left the barrel. Common in PRS is free recoil shooting( not using the shoulder) on certain obsticals. I have not noticed a POI change on steel at 400+ yds but will soon be test on paper at 100.
Thanks Paul Ri! I've got a couple of what I'd call "interesting" videos that will hit soon. The next big series will be on trigger management that will come in the spring. There are some eye openers in this one - all data-driven, of course :)
What do you mean by soft or hard shoulder and how do you make your shoulder soft? I thought you’re suppose to have reward pressure in to your shoulder? I’m a novice shooter and these terminologies are all new to me.
A hard shoulder is where your muscles are tensed. Many shooters, especially with heavier recoiling rifles, will try to fight the recoil by tensing up their shoulders. You want to absorb the recoil by having your shoulder relaxed. As to the rearward pressure into your shoulder, you don't need much. I've heard people espouse that you should have as much rearward force as your rifle weighs. That doesn't make sense to me for a whole host of reasons. I gently pull back with my three outer fingers - just enough to be able to be consistent each time. The toughest thing about applying rearward force is isolating your bicep muscle (which is exercised to pull back) from your shoulder muscle (which you want loose and untensed). The more you pull back, the harder it is to isolate one from the other.
@@TwoMinutesToTarget I see. Thank you for your response. I went shooting my dads 300 win mag and I felt that if I didn’t have enough rearward pressure and a solid cheek weld that rifle kicked my ass. I felt like when there wasn’t an pressure pulling back it was like giving the rifle space to slam in to me. Kind of like the analogy, which I’m sure you’ve heard, putting a fist on the shoulder and extending the arm is a push but giving an inch of space becomes a punch. I wanted to ask you if this thought process is correct based on your expertise? Thank you sir.
Great mini series on recoil. I wonder how this affects how you pick and kit up your chassis/stock. For example, does this back up the trend in going with heavy rifles for PRS matches or can better fundamentals mean a relatively lighter rifle will work just as well? Is there a strategic way to put weight on the rifle (back heavy, center balanced, or front heavy)? Lastly, in regards to a soft shoulder, i wonder if there is a good recoil pad that can help with consistency (maybe a springier pad).
I'm pondering use of a softer recoil pad to slow down the counter response from my body and hopefully make more consistent the contact relationship between shoulder and rifle...
I do not understand, while watching ultra-high speed photography, you can see the bullet completely exit the end of the barrel before there is any discernable movement of the barrel whatsoever. Thoughts?
Technical question: Why is ME so much higher than felt recoil? Say you have an '06 with about 2,800 foot pounds of muzzle energy yet the felt recoil is only around 20 lbs even after taking the weight of the rifle into account - shouldn't they be equal according to Newton? Are they different units of measurement ?
So the first two videos I get it, shoot in position perpendicular to your rifle and using soft shoulder. Does the 3rd video mean soft shoulder is more important than the perpendicular shooting position to your rifle? And when you load your bipod from behind the rifle, do you mean we also need to do the same way like this ruclips.net/video/i5hvm1tbDyg/видео.html ? Not sure how to keep a soft shoulder when you need to push the stock forward to load the bipod, just relax the shoulder muscle but still push forward?
First off, I love the video you referenced. I've watched it before, and actually learned a little from it (the raising the butt end, and settling down to load the bipod). Here's the key thing on loading it up: you don't need to put a bunch of force in - just take out the slack so you're consistent shot to shot. That doesn't take much force, and is in not contrary to having a soft shoulder AND pulling the rifle back into the shoulder. I look at a hard shoulder this way: it exacerbates imperfections in other parts of your position. If you perfectly set the rifle in an identical position every time you shoot, then a hard shoulder can work. However, we're human and we don't do that, not to mention that we're setting up in different positions, etc. Having a soft shoulder better sets you up to minimize those variances.
@@TwoMinutesToTarget Thanks a lot for your reply and explanation. I guess I get what you mean, but will try and feel it when in the range to understand how hard/soft my muscle needs to be. I guess something like hard enough to load the bipod but also soft enough to act like a spring to absorb some recoil movement from the stock, therefore the force respond back to the rifle from the shoulder would be much less to achieve the goal of stabilizing the rifle.
@@iamsomebodynobody It takes very little force to load the bipod, and you should be isolating your bicep when you pull the rifle back in to your shoulder - again, not much force there. Think about if you had a spring instead of your shoulder - it may compress a little by loading up and pulling back, but it's still a spring and will absorb the much larger recoil forces. With that said, if you're having trouble getting it, my recommendation is to focus on shoulder first, then work in the bipod, then work in the pull. One thing at a time.
@@TwoMinutesToTarget I tried in the range, but not sure if I am doing it properly. The bipod doesn't seem moving, but the image throw the scope still jumps to the left a bit. Like in this video: ruclips.net/video/isQiEsXNC_E/видео.html starting around 11:20 until 13:00. The bipod does not seem moved(I played in 0.25 speed) for those few shoots the shooter took, but the center of the reticle or where he aimed did moved/jumped to left/upper left/right a bit, about 1mil more or less. So is this what we expected or the shooter used a firm shoulder to load the bipod and deal with the recoil? Thank you.
@@iamsomebodynobody You will get some movement. For me, I like a small amount of movement as it gets the target away from the vertical part of the reticle, which allows you to see the impact better.
I have to admit, I was somewhat surprised that the horizontal didn't spread out more with the harder shoulder. The vertical certainly did. The first group on paper actually has really good vertical (minus the flier). It's about 1.25" at 500 yards. The group on steel was adjusted 1 moa in the scope, so is pretty tight when you consider the adjustment.
Bullet leaves the barrel in less than 10 milliseconds. There are also three recoil states during firing. Check your physics mate: you'll find the first explosion of the catridge causes very little (if any) force on the platform. Check it mate...
Wow. As I’m both a practicing mechanical engineer and competitive shooter this is perhaps the ABSOLUTE BEST technical breakdown series of recoil management techniques and how forces decompose on the shooter. MORE VIDS LIKE THESE PLEASE!
These videos were so helpful in helping me understand my mistakes. This explained exactly some of the recoil issues I've been having.
Thank you for making the three step series. My 100 yard groupings have greatly improved
Glad they helped!
Clear, concise and to the point! Good job!!
Awesome. After I watched all 3 videos about recoil, I came back to previous ones just to hit like button on every video 😀
This was really fun!!
Before this video I was watching a guy say that the friction the bullet has on the lands, and the right hand twist makes your gun jump forward and twist to the right, which made no sense.
I'm glad to know at least someone is putting out good logical information.
Finally something useful! Thank you so much. Great work. This helped me to correct something about my shooting I was doing wrong and having constant fliers to the left.
Thanks Andrija! The next big series will be on trigger management. This is every bit as important, if not more so, than recoil management. I have a lot of technical things to do to get the footage for this, though!
@@TwoMinutesToTarget that would be great. It this 3 videos you have explained something that most of "experienced" shooters could not answer me, although I have 20years experience in IPSC but now I started a little bit in long range. I was making a mistake with shooting a nice group and then start shooting to the left almost the straight line and it was obvious it was because of how I hold a rifle. I tried to change technique but only on 100m but I can't wait to go to another range these days to try it little bit further so I can notice the difference. Thank you and keep the videos coming, I like them because it is short and concrete not a half and hour of BS as many other 👏
@@AndrijaR Thanks again. The trigger stuff will make a big difference for quite a few people. I cut my group size by a third after I did some advanced training on trigger management.
@@TwoMinutesToTarget great Video ! Thx a lot for your effort. Did you made a trigger management Video? Would be very interresting.
Great video guys....keep em coming!
Excellent! Nice to see actual at-the-range results!
I wish you would have gone into some coaching cues around 'soft shoulder'. I'm sold on the explanation, but would have liked some actual advice on how to achieve it.
Funny you should mention this - a day after you posted this, I was out at a private range with a friend of mine (whom I'm trying to get into ELR - I think he's hooked...) and he was asking the same question. The problem is that some of the things that are treated as gospel in shooting "stance" - like loading the bipod, pulling the rifle into your shoulder - are at direct odds with absorbing recoil. With pulling into your shoulder, for example, it is very difficult - and takes a lot of practice - to isolate your bicep (the primary pulling muscle) from your pectoral muscle. This leads to your pecs being engaged (harder), which is the opposite of what you want to absorb recoil.
When shooting ELR, I like to be completely relaxed. Engaging your bicep (and pecs) means you are not relaxed. Likewise, loading a bipod means you are not relaxed - I find it to be the opposite of relaxing while prone. My solution? Screw loading the bipod. My most stable bipod is the Phoenix, which has ski feet. If it didn't take its own trailer to haul around, it would be my every-shot bipod. Since I don't always like using it, my second favorite is the daddy Atlas with... you guessed it... ski feet. If it only had smaller distance between the leg detents, it would be the perfect bipod.
As for pulling back into my shoulder, with heavy recoiling rifles I do think you need some of this - shooting free recoil can work with light recoiling rifles, I don't like it with heavy. For this, I put most of my muscle engagement into my three "grasper" fingers (middle finger, whatever the finger down from your middle finger is called, and the pinky). Your body is made to engage finger muscles without engaging your whole arm. So, I snug into the rifle a bit and pull back with those three fingers. Doing so will engage your forearm muscles, which will naturally engage your bicep a small amount, but will not progress further than that to a meaningful amount, leaving your pecs to absorb better.
New video coming out today in a series I'm calling The Anatomy of a Shot - I could add this topic to that series, or perhaps an addendum to this series. The problem is that meaningful content takes a lot of bandwidth, and I have precious little of it these days.
Excellent videos. Looking forward to the trigger guidance.
Great demomstration and information.Im so glad Isawthis in shoulder tension.Growing up was always taught to hold it tight.Since Ive been shooting prone now Ive seen its so correct to hold it tight.Thanks
Wow. This is the video(s) I've spent days looking for on managing my recoil for PRS shooting. Really appreciate the work you put into this. I think I've found the answer to my problem and the best possible solution. Thank you!
Your Video was published in really popular FaceBook Page (Professional) in Ukraine :) Great!
Go Ukraine!
@The Damage, hope you are safe and putting what you may have learned here to good use.
@@TwoMinutesToTarget of ource! Thanks!!! Slava Ukraini !!!
@@TheDamage "Russian warship, go f--k yourself!" - Slava Ukraini!
Excellent videos, subject very well explained and super clear in understanding, thank you for this quality, Sportingly
I how you do more videos - best presentation I’ve every seen
Enjoying these. Thank you
Thanks for the feedback!
Awesome content man! Loving the videos!
Thoughts and a rigid mount rest, such as a fixed rest with an arca mount holding the rifle solid, not allowing movement vertical or horizontal.
Really cool. Thanks for taking the time to do this!
Thanks Shawn!
Excellent: turned a few light bulbs on for me. Thank you.
If it's not affected horizontally because it spent so less time in the barrel, wouldnt the same apply for affecting the shot vertically?
is it possible the "not so much" lateral movement is because by holding the rifle, your forearm, upper arm, and rifle stock formed a triangle that stabilized the rifle from horizontal movements? Maybe you can try two sets of experiments one with a very loose grip another one with a tight grip
Interesting video. Great job!
Good stuff!!!
Thanks 6.5x47! In the next couple months I'll be putting out a trigger management video (or videos) that I think will be really good. I need some new video equipment first, though.
This is all interesting information, well done, and seemingly scientifically accurate. Except for one thing at the end......
You came to the conclusion that windage movement could not occur because the bullet is not in the barrel long enough. So tell how it is in the barrel long enough to see elevation movement, but not long enough to see windage movement? Is the bullet not in the barrel the same length of time when considering this phenomenon? How can it be long enough to move one way, but not long enough to move the other?
I have 2 precision rifles, that WILL, without a doubt, see significant movement to the left (right shooter) if I have my shoulders non-parallel as you show/describe in these videos. One of them will see a bunch, like 2-3" at 100yds. So I can tell you that your conclusion here is incorrect.
As a fellow engineer, I think I must point out to you that you attempted to come to a conclusion about a general phenomenon while having a data set of one. Even you must admit that this is a flawed conclusion when following a scientific process.
It would have been accurate for you to say that, in this one instance, with this one rifle, with this one shooter doing these specific things, these were the results. But that is not what you did, you instead made a generalized statement that improper position will not affect windage accuracy. I can 100% guarantee you, and prove to you, that your generalized statement on this subject is incorrect.
Great videos. Thanks,
Thanks jmichel70!
Great videos. From my experience the mass of the rifle and possibly CG height relative to bore axis are more important than how the shooter resist the recoil. Back to your soft spring analogy the rifle has to move pretty far to get any meaningful force from someones shoulder and by that time the bullet has left the barrel. Common in PRS is free recoil shooting( not using the shoulder) on certain obsticals. I have not noticed a POI change on steel at 400+ yds but will soon be test on paper at 100.
Great series of videos! I wonder if the same principles would apply when shooting a rifle while standing.
Bravo,
Excellent video.
You got my subscription 👍
Thanks Paul Ri! I've got a couple of what I'd call "interesting" videos that will hit soon. The next big series will be on trigger management that will come in the spring. There are some eye openers in this one - all data-driven, of course :)
What do you mean by soft or hard shoulder and how do you make your shoulder soft? I thought you’re suppose to have reward pressure in to your shoulder? I’m a novice shooter and these terminologies are all new to me.
A hard shoulder is where your muscles are tensed. Many shooters, especially with heavier recoiling rifles, will try to fight the recoil by tensing up their shoulders. You want to absorb the recoil by having your shoulder relaxed. As to the rearward pressure into your shoulder, you don't need much. I've heard people espouse that you should have as much rearward force as your rifle weighs. That doesn't make sense to me for a whole host of reasons. I gently pull back with my three outer fingers - just enough to be able to be consistent each time. The toughest thing about applying rearward force is isolating your bicep muscle (which is exercised to pull back) from your shoulder muscle (which you want loose and untensed). The more you pull back, the harder it is to isolate one from the other.
@@TwoMinutesToTarget I see. Thank you for your response. I went shooting my dads 300 win mag and I felt that if I didn’t have enough rearward pressure and a solid cheek weld that rifle kicked my ass. I felt like when there wasn’t an pressure pulling back it was like giving the rifle space to slam in to me. Kind of like the analogy, which I’m sure you’ve heard, putting a fist on the shoulder and extending the arm is a push but giving an inch of space becomes a punch. I wanted to ask you if this thought process is correct based on your expertise? Thank you sir.
golden contents, how can we support you for more of these?
Thank you so much.
Great mini series on recoil. I wonder how this affects how you pick and kit up your chassis/stock. For example, does this back up the trend in going with heavy rifles for PRS matches or can better fundamentals mean a relatively lighter rifle will work just as well? Is there a strategic way to put weight on the rifle (back heavy, center balanced, or front heavy)? Lastly, in regards to a soft shoulder, i wonder if there is a good recoil pad that can help with consistency (maybe a springier pad).
I'm pondering use of a softer recoil pad to slow down the counter response from my body and hopefully make more consistent the contact relationship between shoulder and rifle...
I do not understand, while watching ultra-high speed photography, you can see the bullet completely exit the end of the barrel before there is any discernable movement of the barrel whatsoever. Thoughts?
I assume this doesn't apply to short stroke vs DI difference wise?
Great videos! Also, did you test or notice if a hard shoulder, or fixed mount, will give higher bullet velocity?
I haven't - in theory it should. The question is, how much?
I have tested this before. Free recoil to soft shoulder to loaded bipod. 30 feet/s difference in my 6,5 setup.
Technical question: Why is ME so much higher than felt recoil? Say you have an '06 with about 2,800 foot pounds of muzzle energy yet the felt recoil is only around 20 lbs even after taking the weight of the rifle into account - shouldn't they be equal according to Newton? Are they different units of measurement ?
Two minutes, I hope you don’t mind but I spread the word of your vids on instagram. Great work thank you. 😎👍🏽
Hi Bobby - of course I don't mind. Quite the contrary! Thanks for helping!
Two Minutes do you have a Instagram account? It might help spread the word. Just wondering 🤔
@@bobbygonzon5428 I just added one - will start posting video shorts there.
@@bobbygonzon5428 instagram.com/twominutestotarget/
Didn’t my busters prove that recoil is only after the bullet has left the barrel ?so recoil doesn’t affect shot placement
So the first two videos I get it, shoot in position perpendicular to your rifle and using soft shoulder. Does the 3rd video mean soft shoulder is more important than the perpendicular shooting position to your rifle? And when you load your bipod from behind the rifle, do you mean we also need to do the same way like this ruclips.net/video/i5hvm1tbDyg/видео.html ? Not sure how to keep a soft shoulder when you need to push the stock forward to load the bipod, just relax the shoulder muscle but still push forward?
First off, I love the video you referenced. I've watched it before, and actually learned a little from it (the raising the butt end, and settling down to load the bipod). Here's the key thing on loading it up: you don't need to put a bunch of force in - just take out the slack so you're consistent shot to shot. That doesn't take much force, and is in not contrary to having a soft shoulder AND pulling the rifle back into the shoulder. I look at a hard shoulder this way: it exacerbates imperfections in other parts of your position. If you perfectly set the rifle in an identical position every time you shoot, then a hard shoulder can work. However, we're human and we don't do that, not to mention that we're setting up in different positions, etc. Having a soft shoulder better sets you up to minimize those variances.
@@TwoMinutesToTarget Thanks a lot for your reply and explanation. I guess I get what you mean, but will try and feel it when in the range to understand how hard/soft my muscle needs to be. I guess something like hard enough to load the bipod but also soft enough to act like a spring to absorb some recoil movement from the stock, therefore the force respond back to the rifle from the shoulder would be much less to achieve the goal of stabilizing the rifle.
@@iamsomebodynobody It takes very little force to load the bipod, and you should be isolating your bicep when you pull the rifle back in to your shoulder - again, not much force there. Think about if you had a spring instead of your shoulder - it may compress a little by loading up and pulling back, but it's still a spring and will absorb the much larger recoil forces. With that said, if you're having trouble getting it, my recommendation is to focus on shoulder first, then work in the bipod, then work in the pull. One thing at a time.
@@TwoMinutesToTarget I tried in the range, but not sure if I am doing it properly. The bipod doesn't seem moving, but the image throw the scope still jumps to the left a bit. Like in this video: ruclips.net/video/isQiEsXNC_E/видео.html starting around 11:20 until 13:00. The bipod does not seem moved(I played in 0.25 speed) for those few shoots the shooter took, but the center of the reticle or where he aimed did moved/jumped to left/upper left/right a bit, about 1mil more or less. So is this what we expected or the shooter used a firm shoulder to load the bipod and deal with the recoil? Thank you.
@@iamsomebodynobody You will get some movement. For me, I like a small amount of movement as it gets the target away from the vertical part of the reticle, which allows you to see the impact better.
Weird! Your horizontal dispersion in all shots are almost the same! Your first group has a huge vertical and horizontal flier.....hmm!
I have to admit, I was somewhat surprised that the horizontal didn't spread out more with the harder shoulder. The vertical certainly did. The first group on paper actually has really good vertical (minus the flier). It's about 1.25" at 500 yards. The group on steel was adjusted 1 moa in the scope, so is pretty tight when you consider the adjustment.
Bullet leaves the barrel in less than 10 milliseconds. There are also three recoil states during firing. Check your physics mate: you'll find the first explosion of the catridge causes very little (if any) force on the platform. Check it mate...