The WORST Military Handgun Cartridge of the 20th Century?
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2024
- Mike takes a look at the Swiss 7.5mm M82 cartridge, which served from the 1880's until the 1970's, production ending in the 1960's. But you'll be amazed by the most shocking bit of info about this rather weedy little number!
Guns in this video:
Swiss M82 revolver
Swiss M82/29 revolver
Belgian Bulldog
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The Swiss using a black powder loaded cartridge in the 1970's? That must be a record!
In our militia army you usually use the same things you got in the beginning until you get retired. In the past you had to go to the military regularly until about 55 years (officers longer) and therefore it may be that you had a revolver until 1970, while young soldiers were already equipped with the Sig P210 / Sig P220. Especially with troops who were behind the front.
Pjotr: Thanks for the info!
Chris LOL
Black Powder Matters!
Why not. Nobody invades Switserland.
This fellow certainly reminds me of this one bloke I once saw on the range...
Didn't ping a bell at first, but the the clip dropped
What if you bang it on your helmet
Ouch!
Surely a mere coincidence, my good man.
Hahhaa
Thats actually pretty neat. You can do disappearing trick every time you shoot.
Aarotron ninja pistol eh.
Sean Zhu perhaps, perhaps...
Aarotron At first I thought you were talking to yourself.. similar profile pics.
lainepeezy scarf is only diffirence. I do not need one
This would be great for ninjas on assassin mission.
Bloke, you bring the weirdest stuff. Now I'm imagining Swiss dudes trying to disappear like ninjas after a few shots from their ancient revolvers.
When you run out of smoke grenades, you can just ask Gunter to fire off a few 7.5 rounds so you can retreat to the nearest armoured log cabin
My initial thought was "Must be pretty dismal if it worse than 7.62 Nagant and 8mm Nambu" aaaand then there's blackpowder. Mind boggling.
HobbsTac TV i just can say this video is very bad, at first this revolver was introduced in the early 1880‘s at this time blackpowder was standart and then the swiss army introduced the luger in 1900. switzerland is a neutral country they theoretically dont even need a good pistol
7.62 Nagant in its original military form was an extremely hot and powerful, arguably more so than the 7.62 tokarev cartridge. The commercial available ones nowadays are morbidly underloaded, and dangerous to shoot due to squib load potentials
The 8mm Ordnance as used by the French Lebel revolver was pretty weak too.
I hit the Gong one shot 125 yards away so yea
@@Hellebarde1351 They are by no means a country that should be using black powder, the way Switzerland operates is by assuming every country is its enemy. Instead of Belgium who interpreted it different. Belgium was steamrolled in both wars due to their disarmed type of neutrality.
I thought this was going to be a video on the 7.62x38 Nagant catridge in the Nagant revolver
As did I
The actual military Nagant cartridge isn't bad at all. The commercially made ammo is all trash though. Extremely underloaded compared to the military loading.
Saame!
The nagant revolver and ammo system is actually pretty clever.
The nagant revolver is the worst service pistol ever made, but in smokeless military loadings it was decently potent for a cartridge.
Woah, when did Bloke on the Range get hired for TFB?
I was expecting a .38 S&W (NOT .38 S&W Special). The fact that this was a black powder load through the early 70s makes this cartridge the clear winner.
trident 731 What's wrong with 38/200?
Ryan Padgett lots
fdsdh1 I didn't know it was black powder.
Ryan Padgett 38 S&W isn't, it's just not very good compared to cartridges which were in use at around the same time
fdsdh1 Ok sorta like 8mm Nambu.
at least its not 2.7mm Kolibri bullet...
Not a military caliber
Micheal from vsauce here. lol
In our militia army you usually use the same things you got in the beginning until you get retired. In the past you had to go to the military regularly until about 55 years (officers longer) and therefore it may be that you had a revolver until 1970, while young soldiers were already equipped with the Sig P210 / Sig P220. Especially with troops who were behind the front.
Nice to see you bloke. Always an enjoyable experience.
be nice if the ad banners were put in a less obtrusive place, say at the bottom of the screen so we can see what he is pointing too
Run away from TFB while you still have your dignity bloke
you're too good for tfb bloke
Too good for this shitty audience, yes.
Yeah, they are flinging shite whilst we have the best TFB video in ages since the rest of the channel went to the dogs.
Kurt Cotton-Kinch i just can say this video is very bad, at first this revolver was introduced in the early 1880‘s at this time blackpowder was standart and then the swiss army introduced the luger in 1900
It wasn't until the very end of the video that I went "wait a minute, I'm watching TFB? What's Bloke On The Range doing here?"
This channel's not broke, its bloke now.
I honestly did not see the black powder thing coming, and now I feel kinda dumb. Super interesting presentation. I bet the guys who spent their whole careers practicing with those guns tried not to think too hard about the implications of its great recoil characteristics (I can't imagine there's any to speak of) re: using it in a gunfight.
I like that the older history is coming back to tbf
Worlds first airsoft?
That round is so anemic, an enemy soldier could get shot by the entire cylinder, walk over to the shooter, take the empty pistol away from him, them beat him to death with his own gun.
As a retired Army Officer with 37 years service notched up let me tell you that a Handgun isnt intended to be a primary assault weapon. Its a back up weapon and little else, so long as it can put a man down as needs be it doesnt matter if it uses modern day smokeless powder or Black Powder.
You missed the .25ACP. While not widely issued, some general officers did carry.
Worst handgun cartridge... I was expecting 8mm Lebel... but black powder, damn. There really was no excuse for using black powder for a military sidearm after the turn of the 20th century.
8mm lebel is a rifle cart.
There is also the 8mm Lebel Revolver. I did a video on it awhile back.
which is why people refer to the revolver round as 8mm French Ordnance instead. so you don't confuse it with the rifle round.
its why 7.62 Nagant caliber name is used by the revolver which the rifle ammo is often called 7.62 Russian.
And when you buy the revolver ammo, the box says 8mm Lebel.
Good video, not-James. When I saw the title, I fully expected this to be about the 7.62 Nagant. I was pretty surprised. I'd be interested to see a showcase of more successful military rounds through maybe the 50's and 60's.
a video about .308 .556 .30-06 .303 7.62x54r? ya, there aren't enough of those...
Military-grade 7.62 Nagant is very potent ammunition. Commerical 7.62 Nagant is absolute crap though.
Wait, BoTR is now in TBF TV? Love this *bloke* ;)
The reason this cartridge lasted so long is because they were never in war during its time. First time they took that to war they would of scrapped it and back to the drawing board.
I like the fact that you rewied a Swiss military weapon on a Swiss military cammo cloth
The ballistics you give are very similar to .32 Colt Long -- 100+ grain bullet at 600+ ft/s. That and the very similar .32 S&W Long were originally black powder rounds as well, and there were many thousands of the old black powder guns around (I've got a Harrington and Richardson for the mid-length .32 H&R cartridge that I've dated to 1881). As you note, a very strong reason these rounds might have been left as black powder until they were discontinued is due to the first generation revolvers that might still have been in service. Smith & Wesson were making revolvers for the smokeless version of the .32 Long cartridge in 1886, but no other company was proofing for smokeless yet at that time (commercial cartridges didn't switch until 1889-1890 and they were still available in black powder until 1940).
Even a smokeless round loaded to black powder pressures (as you noted, just a couple grains of common pistol powder replacing 9+ grains of black) has a sharper pressure curve, and it's recommended not to shoot modern ammunition in revolvers not marked for smokeless, even with pressure matching, because the pressure curve can still damage the revolver over time. As well, revolvers built for black powder have a larger gap between cylinder and barrel, which (as you noted) promotes gas cutting of the top strap and cylinder pin.
So, you have a revolver type that's been relegated to support troops, truck drivers, desk jockeys, medical staff, and so forth, and the assurance that at least some using the guns will have the original 1882 version. Far simpler, with the mentality of keeping the same weapon throughout career, to just keep issuing black powder ammunition -- effectiveness would be just as good as a smokeless conversion. Then, the continued use of black powder ammunition will cause updates of the weapon to still have the large cylinder gap, perpetuating the need to shoot only black powder.
dang totalbiscuit is looking pretty good, never knew he was into guns though
Good work 'Bloke' ! Thanks for that. Sheds interesting light as to the long service of these grande ole' Swiss military revolvers. Thumbs up 👍
A bloke at the table!
I never knew that these were never switched to smokeless powder. Thanks for the info.
I just got one of the 1882s. Looking forward to using it in competitions.
I expected this to be about the Nagant revolver and cartridge, but i could see the revolver in the thumbnail was not a Nagant. Also, the Nagant was 100-odd fps faster with a similar weight bullet. The gas seal system apparently did do a little bit. Great history lesson. I had no idea the Swiss used them so long, nor that the ammo was always black powder.
So I watched some Chap on the Bloke's channel and now I'm watching some Bloke on the TFB channel. But where's the range?
😂😉☺️
Man TFB better get some more talent, cause right now James is carrying TFB on his back. That man and his short shorts deserves all of TFB’s resources.
So true.
Bloke is great too tbf
Bloke is good tho
They're better than that trust fund baby Alex
Ya great topic to talk about but just a bad talent felt like I was going to call asleep
no 9mm glisenti?
weird
I remember playing that ending music in high school marching band
People wonder why the military is so particular about firearm selection. But sometimes these terrible mistakes end up haunting them for decades.
And I though the issue of the Swedish Mauser m/96:s up until the mid 1990s was extreme
but will it rim jam??
38-200: adapted from black powder rimfire ctg., 1870's era tech. used until 1970's
That's WAY worse than 8x22 Nambu, which is known as an underpowered cartridge itself.
The Soviet 5.45x18 is really wimpy on paper, but supposedly there is an effective AP load.
You think it would be safe to say "by the 1970's no one was using any black powder firearms, or at least not any western nation"... there always has to be one exception!
It's great to see this guy on TFB! brilliant stuff, I always thought the .38 Long Colt was the worst military handgun cartridge , but guess what? Nope.
Dang. 650 fps? Might as well use an 1860 Colt. Get a lot better speed and weight.
Just a reminder. Most nations could fight an entire war with no handguns at all and never win or lose because of them. And as far as the Swiss are concerned, they could've stuck to black powder flintlock pistols and nobody would notice.
I really like this bloke.
Interesting video about guns and cartridges I knew literally nothing about
It seems like a 90-100gr 32 caliber wad cutter such as used in the .32S&W Long could make a fairly effective load but I am wondering about the accuracy given that the original was a healed bullet. Of course then there is the question of what brass to use. Perhaps a HBWC would swage up enough to work. Looks like a very interesting reloading project.
Mikes got my favorite content
Stupid question, but did they practice, qualify, or even actually shoot these things?
Black powder into the 1970's? This makes the Swiss very, very based.
I get a real kick out of some of these comments.
Black powder useless? Hardly. Other than being dirty it is quite effective. The American Bison was hunted to near extinction using nothing but black powder rounds. The BP .45LC in the original balloon head cases launched a 255gr bullet at almost 1000 fps from an army issue 1873 Colt. That little number was quite capable of taking out the horse the enemy was riding with a single shot. Now this cartridge ain't no Colt .45 but the powder is just fine.
A lot of dissing the .38-200/.38S&W. Quite a reasonable round with the right bullet. Every load I have seen tested meets FBI specs for penetration. The 200 gr load is quite effective as it tends to tumble upon impact creating a pretty effective wound channel. It would not have been a standard police load for so many years if it wasn't capable of putting the lights out.
The biggest problem with the Swiss round would be the FMJ round nose bullet design. The ballistics are not that far off of the .32S&W Long (another widely used police round). When loaded with a wad cutter or similar wide meplat bullet it would do an admirable job of putting a bad guy to sleep.
Honestly one doesn't need a mega lautenblaster with 1000+ fps to be effective. Sure there are more "effective" rounds but it is far from being unarmed.
The Russian 30 cal. Nagant gas seal is no powerhouse either.
That's a pretty trio of revolvers featured, but yeah those bullets being blackpowder is pretty bad. They should have just somehow modernized the revolver or made more Lugers if that was an issue. Could always have decided in the 1930s to get a .455, .45acp, or something better than what they had.
I wonder if it's just not the top straps but if the cylinder can actually take the extra pressure. One of the most dangerous things you can do is put modern ammo into a black powder designed gun.
Cool, never knew about this Euro cartridge.
Had no idea that these were black powder. Absurdly expensive revolvers that I've seen.
I half expected to hear it was the 8mm Nambu
You mean to tell me Bloke, that 7.62x38r is more effective than 7.5 Swiss ordinance?
Mike, this video has me wondering about the status of handloading in Switzerland and its environs.
8mm Nambu has had to have been worse
Actually no. Swiss 7.5mm 166.8J < 8mm nambu 274J
Shit that is a pretty pathetic round
Dale Curtis 7mm Baby Nambu. Cute gun, weak round.
Dale Curtis plus the Japanese actually used smokeless powder
I would have thought the 7.62 nagant would be the worst. Learn new things everyday
Got to the black powder part....wow
Isn't Japanese 8mm Nambu worse?
GmMef1st0 Actually no. Swiss 7.5mm 166.8J < 8mm nambu 274J
8mm Nambu wasn't that bad. The guns that used 8mm Nambu though weren't really that great. But thats a different issue
My first thought. But after watching the video I agree yes, someone managed to be worse. Remember, while Nambu pistols are trash the Type 100 (late production) worked pretty well.
CKshouta Agreed. The type 100 was a pretty effective jungle fighting submachinegun.
At least the Japanese used smokeless powder
what about 38-200 Swiss very rarely engaged in hand gun. The baby Enfield was widely distributed and used in large quantities. Maybe you should reconsider your choice.
First of all I thought you were referring to The 7.5×55mm Swiss ( 7.5×55mm Schmidt-Rubin) and was preparing to go non-Swiss on ya. Secondly, regarding the revolver cartridge you made an unfair comparison. Everyone knows that the .32 ACP is one of the top five man stoppers within the realm of military weapons. Finally, to may be a small bullet but who wants to be shot with it? Finally finally, I'm trolling. I'd never heard of this round and enjoyed the video. Thank you.
its still called a British bulldog even if it was made in Belgium as the model name does not change even if its made under license in another country.
It is a bad cartridge compared to modern standards but it still drops the guy on the receiving end.
He never really said WHY it was the worst Cartridge...... only that it was black powder and was still being used till the 1970s.
Thats why lol
Also extremely low energy. Like 170 odd joules. It's slower than a 45ACP and has less mass than a light 9mm para bullet.
Those revolvers do look amazing!
I thought he was going to say the Nagant 1895 revolver in 7.62x38r was the worst.
I didn't know Bloke on the Range was with TFB
I think those little bulldogs are good looking revolvers
I thought nothing could be worse than 38 S&W / 38-200, I was wrong.
Wow I never knew about this one!
Though it appears to be a well made and interesting revolver. If ammo were available easily, it may be a fun range gun.
No idea why they kept using black powder? It's so they wouldn't have to carry smoke grenades
this just shows you that revolvers never die!!
You can try to phase them out, you can dog them and insult them and say they are dumb say they are a dead pistol type you can even say they have no place in the market anymore...but you are wrong. The revolver will never die. and people like me will love them and carry them forever and ever. lol
What's your opinion on the power of the .38/200 cartridge (the one used by the Enfield revolvers and the later Webeys)?
Bloke on the Range thanks for the reply
i wonder how the round compares to the colt .36 navy cap and ball?
Generally speaking, the 36 cap and ball achieves ballistics similar to the 380 ACP- more or less the same bullet weight, and similar velocities, with a rather long barrel necessary for black powder
And here I am thinking "It's the Swiss when are they ever gonna shoot anyone?" No but in all seriousness this round sucks.
Hey there BLOKE!!
A Gentleman's cartridge.
So in your video with forgotten weapons I simply misheard: your surname isn't McBloke, your full name is actually Mike Bloke?
I for sure thought it would be 9x19 Luger
So the cartridge was well made but obsolete
What about 7.62x38 nagant?
I tucking like this dude
7.62 Nagant was quite effective aimed at the back of Polish officers heads. The Russians blamed the Nazis for the massacre.
For executions, they used Walthers PP/PPK purchased earlier from Germany, as well as a number of Browning pistols. This allowed later to blame the Germans.
My h&r revolver fires wimpy 32shorts.
French 8mm ordinance sets no houses afire either.
Video length could have been tighter. I didn't expect as much of a history lesson. Presentation was a little dry. Otherwise, pretty cool.
A lot of these 30 caliber revolvers belong to countries that did not fight in colonial wars. Second, they were cheap and most didn't want to change to a heavier caliber. They consider that it was a self -defense weapon and for coup de grace, as well as badge for rank or that branch of service.
Who gave this British man permission to handle revolvers and live ammunition. I am reporting this to MI5 immediately!
where is mail room James
Bonjour. Oui le revolver 1882 est resté longtemps en service dans notre armée (notamment pour équipée beaucoup de soldats d'intendance). Et la munitions à été produite jusqu'en 60 (il faut penser qu'à l'époque les hommes effectuer leur obligation militaire jusqu'à 50 ans.... Et que dans les sociétés de tir beau de tireurs utilisaient encore les revolver.
That's pretty smart. If nuclear war happened they could make powder for their sidearms from charcoal.
They had a huge stockpile of black powder to use up.
Have you tried the P+?