I appreciate this. My pastor gave me this book. He did say that he does not recommend any of the other books by this author. I am a lady that came out of fundamentalism/legalism so this book was helpful to me, because I was overly focused on the other traits of God and needed a more balanced view, but I did notice the mushy and unclear writing as you stated, it is definitely a yellow-flag and one should proceed to read with caution. Generally speaking, I am always quite wary of anything that is popular, being on the narrow way and all.
Initially I was unsure about the book because of its title. However Ortlund's conservative theology and use of Puritan quotes gave it such strength and credibility. ( There was nothing feminine about the Puritans!) Personally it helped me more in my struggle with sin than anything else I was trying including tough bible teaching!! I was surprised and blown away. I found my confidence in who Jesus is grew sweeter and sin less appealing. Clearly the work of the Spirit in my life. As a fellow Complementarian, I have to say I felt a few of your comments about the book (good for a women's book club) were a little mysoginistic.
Thanks for the critique; i read it very differently to you, and i am leading a group from my church in reading this, so this helps me to avoid pitfalls; i have no desire to minimize sin and judgment; our last group was very cerebral (some pretty rigorous apologetics), so i thought a more emotive approach would be a refreshing contrast.
Related to the stacks of books... There was a donation by someone to provide any church that requested books, free copies, for all their members. Our church has done a book study on it. It's been a precious reflection of Christ's love for his people
I've had this book reccomended to be by sooo many people recently. I was able to pick up a copy at my local library and begin reading it. Granted, i haven't finished it... but so far it has really helped me. It could be because of my background... when i first started attending church in my teens it was at a hyper charismatic church. I didn't know that all Christians didnt believe/behave the way we did in that church. After having my eyes opened to the lies of the charismatic/WOF doctrines while in bible college, my husband and i eventually left those churches and joined a southern baptist church.. and then moved to middle of nowhere Nebraska and joined a "bible church" (basically Baptist without the name). We are now in a reformed church and the teaching is amazing... but what I've noticed is that the Baptists and reformed folks are very into theology and knowing ABOUT God, but there was little passion FOR God. We talk alot about him, but i no longer felt close to Him at all. I found myself in a valley of sorts... wanting good and deep theology and proper understanding of God, but also missing the days of emotional "passion" that i had while in the charismatic movement... Anyhow, this book has been (so far) beneficial for me in that respect. Its helping me see the gentle side of Christ (that i see lacking in the reformed circles) but also not leading me towards seeking subjective emotionalism as found in the charismatic circles. I guess because i had been in such a rut, seeing God's gentle and "approachable" aspects has been much needed for me. I agree.. for someone who doesnt have a grounded understanding about God (his wrath, sovereignty, manliness, fatherhood, etc) this book could potentially leave them with a skewed view of who He is. But for those like me who understand those parts of God and felt detached from Him, it could be helpful. Thats my 2 cents anyhow
Help me understand how desiring to know more about God through understanding his word is separated from passion for God? I’m having a hard time seeing how those aren’t the same. If you’re passionate about baseball for instance don’t you want to know everything about baseball? It seems to me that the passion is the driver of the pursuit of knowledge.
@@brettmagnuson8318 I appreciate your comment about passion. I attend an OPC church and go weekly to a Free Church of Scotland Continuing service, too. They're deeply reformed and passionate beyond measure about God. CHRIST is central, the Word revered. They're fully trinitarian, prayerful, and devoted to Christ's bride. The quality of material read by the flock is exceptional, especially at the church of Scotland. Many of these books like Gentle are passable, but not the BEST, and often anemic. Get in the Word directly, seeking the Spirit's understanding. Prov. 16: 20a "Whoever gives thought to the Word will discover good,"
@@libbysteimel8201 Right. I'm gonna be reading this book soon so I'll have to reserve critique till I get a chance to read it myself. I hope it's edifying to the church and if it isn't I hope that the leaders of the churches will recognize it and discard it.
I really worry about Christian writers who act like God's personal psychiatrist. Eesh... very reckless, very cringy, and maybe a simple lack of a fear of the Lord.
Appreciate this review. Our church has been giving it away this last year, and my thought was, why in this time aren't we giving away something more like "Slaying Leviathan" by Glen Sunshine? This book does seem to fit our church's slightly effeminate ethos, where the Pastors/elders emphasize binding up the wounded sheep with nearly no mention of correcting and admonishing wandering sheep.
Totally agree, it is not really a timely work as right now we are dealing more with churches not having a proper fear of God rather than being too afraid of Him
Thank you for doing this video. This is an important subject (in general) for those calling themselves Christians. Why is it that serious Christian men and women think that they should not be reading the same doctrinally and theologically sound books? The previous church I was a member of had a "Women's Bible Study," yet the time I was involved they only did book studies; so no, it was not a Women's Bible Study. It was a Women's Book study. All the books they read while I participated were emotional driven, and man focused, even after a few requests to either do a true Bible study, or to study a sound theological book by the Puritans, Calvin, RC Sproul, etc. When it became obvious this would not happened, I stopped going b/c it was a true waste of time, and kept me from reading better books. A while after I stopped going, they announced they were going to read this book, so I researched it and came across Jeremiah Johnson's review and shared my concerns, and the review, with the pastor-making it clear that I had not read the book, but considering all the other books they had read, while I was involved, I had determined his review was most likely accurate. His response? He hadn't read it either but trusted the women's judgment, and on top of that he had heard other good things about it. And one place he heard good things was TGC, I believe. Well, enough said. Pastor's, God has placed you as His under shepherds of these local churches. Please take your responsibility seriously and make certain the youth and women are being taught doctrinally sound material. Even if these types of books are not heresy, they are certainly not what is best, good, and right! And they can seriously stunt your spiritual growth. Make certain you r people are being discipled, and growing in the knowledge of God; and growing in their sanctification.
I think that effeminate teaching/teachers should be marked and avoided just as much as false teaching/teachers. In my understanding they both distort who Christ is.
Wonderful book. It is the love of Christ that brings repentance not the legalistic pietistic gospel many churches preach. Christ is responsible for salvation and sanctification!
Hey John, I think the books purpose is narrow but suitable for the purpose it was written. I think Ortlund is trying to encourage Christians who struggle with perpetual disappointments of sin and faulty subsequent views of God that follow. I don't think its meant to minimize sin but rather to counter "discouraged, weary, disenchanted..." Christians with stubborn and vexing evils. I think Ortlund does a decent job to avoid an overbalanced God that favors one attribute over another (more love than wrath). He tries to carefully answer that danger on page 28-29. Due in part to the ongoing waves of sin that continually crash upon God's people here in the West from outiside the church with pleasures galore and boundless greed and due in part to dangers from within - a minimized Gospel with soft imperatives, Christians are constantly plagued with discouragements and paralysis. I think the book is simple and appeals to those whose faith needs a simple buttress or two to assure them of the character of God. I think we always need to be reminded, even a seasoned saint, that God's wrath is no longer fully loaded but that His clip has unloaded on Another at the Cross. Just a thought.
I'm over halfway through with this book and I've been enjoying it - apparently in the minority! I'm pretty reserved with emotions so I'm not sucked up into the emotion-driven aspect but I've enjoyed some of the points he's brought up like God's emotions not being on a seesaw we have to keep tilted toward 'happy' vs 'angry' or that Jesus doesn't love us and God can't stand us, and God's description of Himself being good and desiring to show mercy. He quotes puritan writings. anyways, I plan on asking my pastor if I run into anything that doesn't make sense
Not in the minority bro. A loud Amen to what you wrote. I've read it 5 times plus. In short, it helped me more than so many other good things/disciplines in my struggle with sin. I was more surprised than anyone. Maybe it was just written for me!
I am reading it right now and this quote troubled me, "It is not our loveliness that wins his love. It is our unloveliness" (page 75). Yes, he loves his enemies (Romans 5:8) by going to the cross and it is true that he is patient as believers sin, but he is only attracted to us through our obedience to him as we begin to reflect Christ (1 Thessalonoans 4:1-8). If a Christian lives in sin he does not cast us off and he wants us to come to him in repentance but he is displeased. This book does not motivate me to pursue holiness but implies that Christ will be pleased with me the same whether I am sinning or not.
I’m so happy you covered this book. I’m half way through and couldn’t figure out why I started to feel repulsed by it. It seemed to have a weak theology backing with an emphasis on “what feels nice”. Chapter 10 gets very weird, explaining we need to romance the heart of Jesus. There are some good points in this book and it’s only because he’s quoting the puritans and using sub points of their teachings to make his agenda come full circle which I’m still confused on. It’s very “Jesus is my boyfriend” style.
@@brettmagnuson8318 Sure, what do you want to know? I have not read it myself, however a friend in church, whose opinion I trust, has. She mentioned the same concerns Jon had, but also talked about a secularist that is mentioned quite in length, Oleg (or something like that.) That she took issue with.
@@tracyyoho3856 I did a little more digging and apparently the publisher did a 10k book giveaway of this copy to whoever signed up for it. I was more curious if you had specific details about why the books were sent to your church without requesting them.
@@tracyyoho3856 yeah we had a bunch of them at our church to. I'm curious about this. Is it normal for the publisher to do things like this? About to read the book myself.
Printed out the book review you posted thanks! In an age when masculinity in the church ( and outside) is under attack, this is just what the church needs, another self help book promoting the softer side of Jesus. For crying out loud he was a carpenter.
Fascinating, thank you for this. I started it, but could not finish it for some reason. Your thoughts may be some of what I was feeling/sensing as I was reading it.
Didn't read it but a person I know is reading it and she rebuked me in FB for a patriotic post so when I saw you were covering this I had a feeling you'd say exactly what you did. Sounds like a novel to me. Thanks for the balanced review brother.
Edited - Phil Johnson's son did a review of this, I only saw snippets online. I was going to read it, but after his review I de idea against it as a new Christian and got Jesus Unleashed by John MacArthur. It is on my shelf to read.
Did you read page 21, where Ortlund writes about Matthew 11:29 that "This is not who he is to everyone, indiscriminately. This is who he is for those who come to him, who take his yoke upon them, who cry to him for help. The paragraph before these words from Jesus gives us a picture of how Jesus handles the impenitent: 'Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! . . . I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you' (Matt. 11:21, 24). 'Gentle and lowly' does not mean 'mushy and frothy.' But for the penitent, his heart of gentle embrace is never out-matched by our sins and foibles and insecurities and doubts and anxieties and failures."
Our church studied this book during our Wednesday night meetings and something about it didn’t seem right but I couldn’t put my finger on it. Then my son’s church began to study it and all I could say to him was that somehow it did not feed my soul and it didn’t seem like a worthwhile book for the times we are now living in. Thank you Jon for reviewing it. This confirms what I was sensing.
@@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast I looked for the article and I had no luck finding it. There are some articles that have quotes from the original article, but that is all I could find. Sorry and God Bless!
Man.. I see the relevance and importance of books however, I think we need to increase our biblical literacy and lean less on books and podcast etc. Now, commentary has its place but to say “we need more books” as a general statement, I have to conclude is only feeding into the increased divide in the church that is already struggling to keep itself on top of biblical foundations.
Thank you for this review Jon and for articulating why this one feels 'off.' My husband and I attended Ray Orlund's church very briefly several years back and it's our personal conviction that he's a false teacher, so I would be extremely wary of anything he endorses, much less a book written by a man he raised.
Another question. How is this "self-help?" "This is a book about the heart of Christ and of God. But what are we to do with this? The main answer is, nothing. To ask, 'Now how do I apply this to my life?' would be a trivialization of the point of this study. If an Eskimo wins a vacation to a sunny place, he doesn’t arrive in his hotel room, step out onto the balcony, and wonder how to apply that to his life. He just enjoys it. He just basks. But there is one thing for us to do. Jesus says it in Matthew 11:28. 'Come to me.'" It is from page 215 of Gentle and Lowly.
was given this book. Looked up it was by a TGC wolf and threw it in the trash. The naperville pres church often preaches in the dark. Has many sjw themes. Recommends Tim Keller and other wolves.
I bought this book a year ago when everyone (it seemed) was praising it. Read a few pages then saw GTY review and put it down. Thought my time could be spent better elsewhere. I definitely think it appeals to sensitive Christians who have a harder time with the wrath stuff. Lol. That’s not me, but I’ve seen sensitive Christians love this book.
Seeing the Ortlund name, I would not have read this, but, wow! Hard to imagine folks reading this could be taken in by the false picture, especially of our Lord and Saviour being attracted to our sin??? Lord, help Your children to see You, to read Your Word, tomark and avoid anything not from You...
Jon, your insight to God's truths and how others distort His truths, always amazes me. I follow two biblical counseling blogs one called the Association to Biblical Counselors ACBC, and another called Biblical Counseling Coalition BBC, it is the BBC that voted for this book as their counseling book of the year, so I bought it. I couldn't put my finger on what it was about the book, but I never finished it, in fact I didn't read much of it. I really appreciate your thoughts. I highly recommend that you do a video on these two organizations. I think the first one is pretty solid, but BBC, not so sure. I would love to hear your thoughts regarding their resources 😊
Actually there are several other organizations like American Association of Christisn Counselors. There are two major distinctions: integration issues and Nouthetic Counseling. One is professional tge other is Biblical discipleship. Not Counseling at all.
Thank you! I've been crying a lot through it, because I've felt the way it speaks of - that Jesus helps me while kind of holding his nose at my repulsiveness. Instead, I LOVE how he explains Jesus is an eager doctor, looking for sick patients who want help. I no longer feel dirty asking him for help to overcome the sin I hate. I had just about given up, sinking into a kind of depression because of it.
Jeremy Walker also did a helpful review of this book. I was gifted this by a family member and was cautious of reading because of the big eva endorsements of it. Maybe it would be ok for me to finish, I just dont want to at this point
What I've come to is that the problem with either meek and lowly or butch mercenery is that they seem to be techniques for manipulation. Holding to The Truth, (and so Jesus) is enough to temper the moment whether hope or disappointment is coursing through the vains. A professing Christian inviting me to live a lie, (whether bully or simp) is offensive no matter which way it's sliced.
Thanks Jon I started reading it but didn’t finish. I agree that it’s not really the message most need right now, most need a call to courage and to be awakened to the need to fear God. I could see how it might appeal to those who are really struggling but the quotes you mentioned are problematic.
My pastor used this book as sermon series last year. I got about a chapter or two in and was bored. It seems like a decent message but correct not the right time especially the last 5 years.
Not the right message we need right now? Knowing and deepening our understanding of the character of Christ (the entire premise of the book) isn’t needed? Wow.
“In this timely work, Dane Ortlund directs our attention back to the person of Jesus. Centered on the Scriptures and drawing upon the best of the Puritan tradition, Ortlund helps us see the heart of God as it is revealed to us in Christ. He reminds us not only of Jesus’s promises of rest and comfort, but of the Bible’s vision of Jesus: a kind and gracious King.” ―Russell Moore What more do you need to know?
Jesus is kind and loving. But, he will judge the world at the end of time. As disciples of Jesus Christ, he covers our sin, but we must always follow His commandments and teaching, so we glorify GOD.
Looks like the only way that Grace to You review will be recovered is if somebody saved it as an HTML or PDF file before it got taken down. Maybe people need to think in terms of doing that more with politically incorrect material. For whatever reason it won't show on Wayback.
Dane mentions more than once that there is a difference between believers and unbelievers. He is very clear that only those who are Christians are forgiven. I think you need to take another listen and listen closely.
It’s a dangerous book! Saw how this book impacted our church and not in a good way. Our pastor at the time told us how much this book has influence him and he then fell into grave sin along with others.
Someone sent me this: Seems legit, and much more thorough than my analysis- Jon, you might be interested in this critique-review of the book: eardstapa.wordpress.com/2020/09/08/review-gentle-and-lowly-the-heart-of-christ-for-sinners-and-sufferers/
Good honest review. My church has been giving away copies of this book. The book’s main point seemed a bit off to me. At the center of Christ should be his holiness and righteousness. His gentleness derives from his righteousness, not the other way around.
My church has been doing the same………but one of my pastors came from a super legalistic, fundamentalist background. I picked it up, but got bored with it……..
I appriciate many of your videos Josh but this feels like you are finding a reason to not like it. The language is inline with the topic of the book. He also says on the book that this is Jesus approach to does who are in Him.
Going through this book in a small group. My wife and I both agree there is something off about the attitude in this book. Of course we agree as we follow Christ we should be meek, compassionate, kind, loving, etc. but this book goes in a direction that we feel is almost extra-biblical while also taking some Biblical texts out of context. Many of the ideas in the book are taken from Puritan quotes and are then connected to verses that are broken down out of context. The writer does a disservice to both Scripture and also to the Puritans that he quotes. I’m not saying everything in the book is wrong, but the way the writer connects the ideas in the book to Scripture is just off. In short, the ideas may be correct but they are clearly eisegetical in nature.
The book struck me as trying to make people comfortable in their sin. No emphasis at all on denying yourself and following Christ. It is really a man-centered book.
Bill are you kidding me? First, the book unpacks depths of puritan works and theology….oh yeah there’s a bunch of people who were shy on talking about sin. Second, you can’t tell me you actually read the book and made the above comment. The book isn’t about personal sin, it’s about who Jesus is despite our sin and how Jesus, who came to die and defeat the power of sin, operates. Bro, the Gospel message is about forgiveness of sins…not the power of sin.
@@josiahley11 Josiah, thanks for the feedback. For a book written to Christians, I expect more. Salvation is the beginning; it is forgiveness we cannot earn for sure. Still, the letters of the apostles spend a whole lot more time exhorting Christians to repentance and good works than on the initial moment of salvation. Read Pilgrims Progress. We, the church, are stuck in the slough of despond. We need to cry out to the Lord for help to get us out of the slough, not make us comfortable in it.
@@josiahley11 Exacly - I did not come away thinking "Great I can sin more". Instead it help me underdand that His love for me is independent of my sins and that makes me fight harder to stay obident to His word and to feel constable to bring it all to Him
I'm a third the way through and so set free by the aspect of coming to Jesus with my sin. His analogy of Jesus being a doctor who is eager to heal and run to you with help, when you ask ... Instead of feeling like filth that he doesn't need to deal with.
Seems deceitful that GTY would put out a critique of a book but then quietly delete it without any explanation why they changed their minds. Some damage has been done and word is out that GTY thinks there are problems with this book. They should explain themselves as Ortlund is a brother in Christ.
I was only able to read three chapters and I had to put it down. I think this book is dangerous in that it is presenting a bunch of half-truths asserting themselves a whole truths and resulting in complete untruths. The author continues to neglect the whole revelation of Jesus and plays if off as "biblical" while overtly neglecting the Bibles revelation of the nature and Character of God. I have a much fuller writeup on the first two chapters, But Google will not let me put it up. (I think because it is too long) If there is a way to direct message you (anyone interested) I will share it with you. The author himself admits you are unable to separate actions on character. pg 15, paragraph 2) "we are not focusing centrally on what Christ has done. We are considering who he is. The two matters are bound up together and indeed interdependent."
This was a fantastic upload. grace thankfully does more than forgive sins.... it changes us. Without grace we will not be authentically changed to be more and more like Jesus Christ! Grace makes you possess attributes That GOD Himself has... Holiness, wisdom, power, mercy etc... look at Paul, Peter, John... The apostles knew and know what grace can do... Look at Peter.. what did he do with grace... read peter's letters... read acts.... supposedly Peter asked to be crucified upside down because he knew what he was.... yet look at what he did for the Lord. God selects basket cases and changes them... look among you .. paul says.... God has chosen the weak and lowly to confound the wise... Look at the apostles... ha.... Galileans ... what can be done with those smelly hicks.... Jesus Christ responds... i will turn the world upside down with them....
Glad it helped you. My concern is that the author takes license on both the divinity and humanity of Jesus. I can’t imagine stating that Jesus finds our sin irresistible. So many good comforting truths but then mixed with unusual romantic sounding language.
I think this book is dangerous. People are reading this book and putting in their mind that Jesus is only gentle and lowly. They devote so much of study to this book that it seems to almost replace the bible to them. Jesus is more than gentle and lowly. Jesus is gentle and lowly because amongst many attributes he is almighty. Jesus being gentle is not significant if he is not wrath and just. This book is dangerous and should be stayed away from.
This review is very, very off-base. I get the impression that you have not read the book at all, at least not carefully. He addresses the things you criticize, the things you say he does not take into consideration.
Jon the only thing missing from your office , the five Solas hanging on the wall behind you ! I think many have grown up with this picture of Jesus smiling at them, one hand reaching out, a little lamb across his shoulders, and that's pretty much the only Jesus they've known.
David F.Wells Ph.d "No place for truth" and Mark Noll's scandal of tge Evangelical Mind" very helpful fir an appraisal from 25 years ago. . Pre-trumplicanism.
@@johntobey1558 who are you John? You seem (because of numerous comments you post) to be here as an antidote to Mr Harris. To be very blunt, I am questioning why you'd continue to watch his podcasts.
@@johntobey1558 I know going back as far as 1984 that Noll has been in the evangelical Democrat camp along with Tony Campolo, Bill Hybels, Jim Wallis et al. I am sure Noll is very happy about what is going on in the evangelical intelligentsia these days.
I watched a few of the videos and quit soon thereafter. I felt like it was demasculinizing Jesus. You cannot know Jesus' heart by ignoring His wrath. That's an unfaithful bias.
The Church is Christ's Bride. How's that for effeminate? I haven't read "Gentle and Lowly", and I appreciate you emphasizing God's disgust and hatred of our sin in contradiction to what the book, apparently, claims.
Not sure if you knew, but it's based Heavily on some of Thomas Goodwin's work, particularly the heart of Christ... I found it a good read, I agree pacing wise it was a little hard to read, it felt disjointed in parts - but the overall thesis I think was fine, perhaps your critique of a lopsided view of one aspect of Christ is an issue
Could be. I’m not a big Goodwin fan either. If we keep our relationship with Christ within the bounds of biblical language I think we do better. Like I said, I didn’t sense heresy necessarily, just sloppiness that could allow for it.
People want to act like if a person includes a bunch of quotes from a Puritan or well-respected theologian in their own book, that it somehow makes it bulletproof because "its based heavily off of [insert big name theologian here]" oooookkkk
Any god outside you is fake and classic theology looking and waiting for their god to come, Luke 17:20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. And its not about male or female nor history, Conscience is truth about Devine Allegories about you and God IN YOU.
Seems like your review, loaded with pre-conceived judgments, so not really reliable, appealed to your followers who want to talk about sin more. Interesting. The book talks A LOT about sin but how we need to view our sin in light of who Jesus is, ultimately stoking the flames of belief and faith. And this is problematic? Effeminate? Wow. “ do not minimize your sin or excuse it away. Raise no defense. Simply take it to the one who is already at the right hand of the father, advocating for you on the basis of his own rules. But your own and righteousness, and all your darkness and despair, drive you to Jesus, the righteous, and all his brightness and sufficiency.” (P. 94) I don’t get how you can be so critical on a book that’s simply exploring deeper the character of Christ….but no, let’s talk about judgment and sin more. Let’s talk about Jesus more, which is what this book does!
Did you listen to the video? Never said viewing sin in light of Jesus is effeminate. Never said the book didn't talk about sin. The whole point was on the thesis of the book- that the fundamental heart of Jesus is gentle and lowly to the detriment of other attributes (i.e. the creation of a separation between God's attributes and His heart). I had no pre-conceived judgements before reading it- Sounds like you have some about me.
@@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast Your bias was obvious when you criticized the authors dad, the author, and others with broad judgments that clearly influenced your argument. That’s an unfair way to handle a theological review. Just read through the comments and it’s obvious you succeeded in planting a flag of suspicion before you even began your argument. Objectively, I think the author addresses the issue you bring up. His attempt isn’t to discount the other attributes, but to dive deep into the gentle and lowly character of Christ to help us better understand Jesus’ perspective on things as to not neglect knowing the Jesus, friend of sinners. Reminds me of a video of John Dawson teaching on the Father Heart of God.
Initially I was unsure about the book because of its title. However Ortlund's conservative theology and use of Puritan quotes gave it such strength and credibility. ( There was nothing feminine about the Puritans!) Personally it helped me more in my struggle with sin than anything else I was trying including tough bible teaching!! I was surprised and blown away. I found my confidence in who Jesus is grew sweeter and sin less appealing. Clearly the work of the Spirit in my life. As a fellow Complementarian, I have to say I felt a few of your comments about the book (good for a women's book club) were a little mysoginistic.
I know this is an old video, but this was spot on! 👏🏻
Rob Drehr-Live Not By Lies. Excellent book about how to not compromise during persecution. Just came out in the last year or so.
Thank you so much for this review.
Taking one attribute of God out of context of His whole being is like taking scripture out of context
I appreciate this. My pastor gave me this book. He did say that he does not recommend any of the other books by this author. I am a lady that came out of fundamentalism/legalism so this book was helpful to me, because I was overly focused on the other traits of God and needed a more balanced view, but I did notice the mushy and unclear writing as you stated, it is definitely a yellow-flag and one should proceed to read with caution.
Generally speaking, I am always quite wary of anything that is popular, being on the narrow way and all.
That makes complete sense. I can totally see it being helpful for those who see God as a rule enforcer alone.
Initially I was unsure about the book because of its title. However Ortlund's conservative theology and use of Puritan quotes gave it such strength and credibility. ( There was nothing feminine about the Puritans!) Personally it helped me more in my struggle with sin than anything else I was trying including tough bible teaching!!
I was surprised and blown away. I found my confidence in who Jesus is grew sweeter and sin less appealing. Clearly the work of the Spirit in my life. As a fellow Complementarian, I have to say I felt a few of your comments about the book (good for a women's book club) were a little mysoginistic.
Thanks for the critique; i read it very differently to you, and i am leading a group from my church in reading this, so this helps me to avoid pitfalls; i have no desire to minimize sin and judgment; our last group was very cerebral (some pretty rigorous apologetics), so i thought a more emotive approach would be a refreshing contrast.
Related to the stacks of books... There was a donation by someone to provide any church that requested books, free copies, for all their members. Our church has done a book study on it. It's been a precious reflection of Christ's love for his people
I've had this book reccomended to be by sooo many people recently. I was able to pick up a copy at my local library and begin reading it. Granted, i haven't finished it... but so far it has really helped me. It could be because of my background... when i first started attending church in my teens it was at a hyper charismatic church. I didn't know that all Christians didnt believe/behave the way we did in that church. After having my eyes opened to the lies of the charismatic/WOF doctrines while in bible college, my husband and i eventually left those churches and joined a southern baptist church.. and then moved to middle of nowhere Nebraska and joined a "bible church" (basically Baptist without the name). We are now in a reformed church and the teaching is amazing... but what I've noticed is that the Baptists and reformed folks are very into theology and knowing ABOUT God, but there was little passion FOR God. We talk alot about him, but i no longer felt close to Him at all. I found myself in a valley of sorts... wanting good and deep theology and proper understanding of God, but also missing the days of emotional "passion" that i had while in the charismatic movement...
Anyhow, this book has been (so far) beneficial for me in that respect. Its helping me see the gentle side of Christ (that i see lacking in the reformed circles) but also not leading me towards seeking subjective emotionalism as found in the charismatic circles. I guess because i had been in such a rut, seeing God's gentle and "approachable" aspects has been much needed for me.
I agree.. for someone who doesnt have a grounded understanding about God (his wrath, sovereignty, manliness, fatherhood, etc) this book could potentially leave them with a skewed view of who He is. But for those like me who understand those parts of God and felt detached from Him, it could be helpful. Thats my 2 cents anyhow
Help me understand how desiring to know more about God through understanding his word is separated from passion for God? I’m having a hard time seeing how those aren’t the same. If you’re passionate about baseball for instance don’t you want to know everything about baseball? It seems to me that the passion is the driver of the pursuit of knowledge.
@@brettmagnuson8318 I appreciate your comment about passion. I attend an OPC church and go weekly to a Free Church of Scotland Continuing service, too. They're deeply reformed and passionate beyond measure about God. CHRIST is central, the Word revered. They're fully trinitarian, prayerful, and devoted to Christ's bride. The quality of material read by the flock is exceptional, especially at the church of Scotland. Many of these books like Gentle are passable, but not the BEST, and often anemic.
Get in the Word directly, seeking the Spirit's understanding. Prov. 16: 20a "Whoever gives thought to the Word will discover good,"
@@libbysteimel8201 Right. I'm gonna be reading this book soon so I'll have to reserve critique till I get a chance to read it myself. I hope it's edifying to the church and if it isn't I hope that the leaders of the churches will recognize it and discard it.
I really worry about Christian writers who act like God's personal psychiatrist. Eesh... very reckless, very cringy, and maybe a simple lack of a fear of the Lord.
Yes!!!
Thanks for covering this.
Appreciate this review. Our church has been giving it away this last year, and my thought was, why in this time aren't we giving away something more like "Slaying Leviathan" by Glen Sunshine?
This book does seem to fit our church's slightly effeminate ethos, where the Pastors/elders emphasize binding up the wounded sheep with nearly no mention of correcting and admonishing wandering sheep.
Totally agree, it is not really a timely work as right now we are dealing more with churches not having a proper fear of God rather than being too afraid of Him
"Fight, Laugh, Feast Network" look up these --guys-- MEN behind this. YES, there's a rebirth of recognizing the value of masculinity.💪
Thank you for doing this video. This is an important subject (in general) for those calling themselves Christians. Why is it that serious Christian men and women think that they should not be reading the same doctrinally and theologically sound books? The previous church I was a member of had a "Women's Bible Study," yet the time I was involved they only did book studies; so no, it was not a Women's Bible Study. It was a Women's Book study. All the books they read while I participated were emotional driven, and man focused, even after a few requests to either do a true Bible study, or to study a sound theological book by the Puritans, Calvin, RC Sproul, etc. When it became obvious this would not happened, I stopped going b/c it was a true waste of time, and kept me from reading better books. A while after I stopped going, they announced they were going to read this book, so I researched it and came across Jeremiah Johnson's review and shared my concerns, and the review, with the pastor-making it clear that I had not read the book, but considering all the other books they had read, while I was involved, I had determined his review was most likely accurate. His response? He hadn't read it either but trusted the women's judgment, and on top of that he had heard other good things about it. And one place he heard good things was TGC, I believe. Well, enough said. Pastor's, God has placed you as His under shepherds of these local churches. Please take your responsibility seriously and make certain the youth and women are being taught doctrinally sound material. Even if these types of books are not heresy, they are certainly not what is best, good, and right! And they can seriously stunt your spiritual growth. Make certain you r people are being discipled, and growing in the knowledge of God; and growing in their sanctification.
Thank you, I had the same feelings about this book
Thanks Jon. You're general critiques line up with how i understood the book.
I think that effeminate teaching/teachers should be marked and avoided just as much as false teaching/teachers. In my understanding they both distort who Christ is.
Nice hat. Go Bucks!
Wonderful book. It is the love of Christ that brings repentance not the legalistic pietistic gospel many churches preach. Christ is responsible for salvation and sanctification!
Hey John, I think the books purpose is narrow but suitable for the purpose it was written. I think Ortlund is trying to encourage Christians who struggle with perpetual disappointments of sin and faulty subsequent views of God that follow. I don't think its meant to minimize sin but rather to counter "discouraged, weary, disenchanted..." Christians with stubborn and vexing evils. I think Ortlund does a decent job to avoid an overbalanced God that favors one attribute over another (more love than wrath). He tries to carefully answer that danger on page 28-29. Due in part to the ongoing waves of sin that continually crash upon God's people here in the West from outiside the church with pleasures galore and boundless greed and due in part to dangers from within - a minimized Gospel with soft imperatives, Christians are constantly plagued with discouragements and paralysis. I think the book is simple and appeals to those whose faith needs a simple buttress or two to assure them of the character of God. I think we always need to be reminded, even a seasoned saint, that God's wrath is no longer fully loaded but that His clip has unloaded on Another at the Cross. Just a thought.
Well stated, and I fully agree.
Thank you for this review. Was on the fence about reading it and now have no desire to.
I'm over halfway through with this book and I've been enjoying it - apparently in the minority! I'm pretty reserved with emotions so I'm not sucked up into the emotion-driven aspect but I've enjoyed some of the points he's brought up like God's emotions not being on a seesaw we have to keep tilted toward 'happy' vs 'angry' or that Jesus doesn't love us and God can't stand us, and God's description of Himself being good and desiring to show mercy. He quotes puritan writings. anyways, I plan on asking my pastor if I run into anything that doesn't make sense
Not in the minority bro. A loud Amen to what you wrote. I've read it 5 times plus. In short, it helped me more than so many other good things/disciplines in my struggle with sin. I was more surprised than anyone. Maybe it was just written for me!
I am reading it right now and this quote troubled me, "It is not our loveliness that wins his love. It is our unloveliness" (page 75). Yes, he loves his enemies (Romans 5:8) by going to the cross and it is true that he is patient as believers sin, but he is only attracted to us through our obedience to him as we begin to reflect Christ (1 Thessalonoans 4:1-8). If a Christian lives in sin he does not cast us off and he wants us to come to him in repentance but he is displeased. This book does not motivate me to pursue holiness but implies that Christ will be pleased with me the same whether I am sinning or not.
I’m so happy you covered this book. I’m half way through and couldn’t figure out why I started to feel repulsed by it. It seemed to have a weak theology backing with an emphasis on “what feels nice”. Chapter 10 gets very weird, explaining we need to romance the heart of Jesus.
There are some good points in this book and it’s only because he’s quoting the puritans and using sub points of their teachings to make his agenda come full circle which I’m still confused on. It’s very “Jesus is my boyfriend” style.
Keep up the good work Jon❗
Our church was sent 300 for free, without asking. I believe there may be a plan in action.
Can I ask more details about this?
@@brettmagnuson8318 Sure, what do you want to know? I have not read it myself, however a friend in church, whose opinion I trust, has. She mentioned the same concerns Jon had, but also talked about a secularist that is mentioned quite in length, Oleg (or something like that.) That she took issue with.
@@tracyyoho3856 I did a little more digging and apparently the publisher did a 10k book giveaway of this copy to whoever signed up for it. I was more curious if you had specific details about why the books were sent to your church without requesting them.
@@brettmagnuson8318 I’ll try to find out. I know my Pastor likes the book and had his own copy and has read it twice.
@@tracyyoho3856 yeah we had a bunch of them at our church to. I'm curious about this. Is it normal for the publisher to do things like this? About to read the book myself.
Printed out the book review you posted thanks! In an age when masculinity in the church ( and outside) is under attack, this is just what the church needs, another self help book promoting the softer side of Jesus. For crying out loud he was a carpenter.
The office looks great, Jon - keep u the good work!
Fascinating, thank you for this. I started it, but could not finish it for some reason. Your thoughts may be some of what I was feeling/sensing as I was reading it.
Didn't read it but a person I know is reading it and she rebuked me in FB for a patriotic post so when I saw you were covering this I had a feeling you'd say exactly what you did. Sounds like a novel to me. Thanks for the balanced review brother.
Edited - Phil Johnson's son did a review of this, I only saw snippets online. I was going to read it, but after his review I de idea against it as a new Christian and got Jesus Unleashed by John MacArthur. It is on my shelf to read.
Where is that review at? Id like to read it. Thanks!
@@kristenoverly7893 there were only snippets I could find but one site had comments of another review link form someone else in ther
Did you read page 21, where Ortlund writes about Matthew 11:29 that "This is not who he is to everyone, indiscriminately. This is who he is for those who come to him, who take his yoke upon them, who cry to him for help. The paragraph before these words from Jesus gives us a picture of how Jesus handles the impenitent: 'Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! . . . I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you' (Matt. 11:21, 24). 'Gentle and lowly' does not mean 'mushy and frothy.' But for the penitent, his heart of gentle embrace is never out-matched by our sins and foibles and insecurities and doubts and anxieties and failures."
Our church studied this book during our Wednesday night meetings and something about it didn’t seem right but I couldn’t put my finger on it. Then my son’s church began to study it and all I could say to him was that somehow it did not feed my soul and it didn’t seem like a worthwhile book for the times we are now living in. Thank you Jon for reviewing it. This confirms what I was sensing.
Lifeway sent our Church a huge box of these books. For free to hand out. Maybe that is why you keep seeing the stacks everywhere?
Oh man!
Yes! All the churches are handing this book out, it seems! Very concerning.
@@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast I looked for the article and I had no luck finding it. There are some articles that have quotes from the original article, but that is all I could find. Sorry and God Bless!
The review by Jeremiah Johnson was helpful. Thanx 4 sharing it.
I just physically put this book into my Amazon cart for my wife. This is cool.
Man.. I see the relevance and importance of books however, I think we need to increase our biblical literacy and lean less on books and podcast etc.
Now, commentary has its place but to say “we need more books” as a general statement, I have to conclude is only feeding into the increased divide in the church that is already struggling to keep itself on top of biblical foundations.
Thank you for this review Jon and for articulating why this one feels 'off.' My husband and I attended Ray Orlund's church very briefly several years back and it's our personal conviction that he's a false teacher, so I would be extremely wary of anything he endorses, much less a book written by a man he raised.
*Pearl-clutching from Ortland fan-boys INCOMING*
Another question. How is this "self-help?"
"This is a book about the heart of Christ and of God. But what
are we to do with this?
The main answer is, nothing. To ask, 'Now how do I apply this to my life?' would be a trivialization of the point of this study. If an Eskimo wins a vacation to a sunny place, he doesn’t arrive in his hotel room, step out onto the balcony, and wonder how to apply that to his life. He just enjoys it. He just basks.
But there is one thing for us to do. Jesus says it in Matthew 11:28.
'Come to me.'"
It is from page 215 of Gentle and Lowly.
Everyone needs a library as their background.
was given this book. Looked up it was by a TGC wolf and threw it in the trash. The naperville pres church often preaches in the dark. Has many sjw themes. Recommends Tim Keller and other wolves.
I bought this book a year ago when everyone (it seemed) was praising it. Read a few pages then saw GTY review and put it down. Thought my time could be spent better elsewhere. I definitely think it appeals to sensitive Christians who have a harder time with the wrath stuff. Lol. That’s not me, but I’ve seen sensitive Christians love this book.
Begg's brave by faith sounds good
at the core, Jesus is Holy!
Looks like a great office setup!
Seeing the Ortlund name, I would not have read this, but, wow! Hard to imagine folks reading this could be taken in by the false picture, especially of our Lord and Saviour being attracted to our sin??? Lord, help Your children to see You, to read Your Word, tomark and avoid anything not from You...
Jon, your insight to God's truths and how others distort His truths, always amazes me. I follow two biblical counseling blogs one called the Association to Biblical Counselors ACBC, and another called Biblical Counseling Coalition BBC, it is the BBC that voted for this book as their counseling book of the year, so I bought it. I couldn't put my finger on what it was about the book, but I never finished it, in fact I didn't read much of it.
I really appreciate your thoughts.
I highly recommend that you do a video on these two organizations. I think the first one is pretty solid, but BBC, not so sure. I would love to hear your thoughts regarding their resources 😊
Actually there are several other organizations like American Association of Christisn Counselors. There are two major distinctions: integration issues and Nouthetic Counseling. One is professional tge other is Biblical discipleship. Not Counseling at all.
Gentle and Lowly is a huge blessing! Highly recommend. Let's not be too nitpicky. Nothing unbiblical in it.
Thank you! I've been crying a lot through it, because I've felt the way it speaks of - that Jesus helps me while kind of holding his nose at my repulsiveness. Instead, I LOVE how he explains Jesus is an eager doctor, looking for sick patients who want help. I no longer feel dirty asking him for help to overcome the sin I hate. I had just about given up, sinking into a kind of depression because of it.
Jeremy Walker also did a helpful review of this book. I was gifted this by a family member and was cautious of reading because of the big eva endorsements of it. Maybe it would be ok for me to finish, I just dont want to at this point
Gonna be honest. Found it kind of repetitive and boring.
Can you link the other review?
@@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast yes I did remember getting bored by the time I was around chapter 5 or so
Here’s the review first published by Grace to You- facebook.com/77454644570/posts/10159892999369571/
What I've come to is that the problem with either meek and lowly or butch mercenery is that they seem to be techniques for manipulation.
Holding to The Truth, (and so Jesus) is enough to temper the moment whether hope or disappointment is coursing through the vains.
A professing Christian inviting me to live a lie, (whether bully or simp) is offensive no matter which way it's sliced.
Thanks Jon I started reading it but didn’t finish. I agree that it’s not really the message most need right now, most need a call to courage and to be awakened to the need to fear God. I could see how it might appeal to those who are really struggling but the quotes you mentioned are problematic.
My pastor used this book as sermon series last year. I got about a chapter or two in and was bored. It seems like a decent message but correct not the right time especially the last 5 years.
Not the right message we need right now? Knowing and deepening our understanding of the character of Christ (the entire premise of the book) isn’t needed? Wow.
? Who is Jeremiah Johnson (the gentlemen who critiqued the book)
“In this timely work, Dane Ortlund directs our attention back to the person of Jesus. Centered on the Scriptures and drawing upon the best of the Puritan tradition, Ortlund helps us see the heart of God as it is revealed to us in Christ. He reminds us not only of Jesus’s promises of rest and comfort, but of the Bible’s vision of Jesus: a kind and gracious King.”
―Russell Moore
What more do you need to know?
Jesus is kind and loving. But, he will judge the world at the end of time. As disciples of Jesus Christ, he covers our sin, but we must always follow His commandments and teaching, so we glorify
GOD.
Jon, great episode and that Ohio State cap has got to go! LOL
My mom’s side of the family is all from Ohio and pretty sure I’d loose my inheritance.
Looks like the only way that Grace to You review will be recovered is if somebody saved it as an HTML or PDF file before it got taken down. Maybe people need to think in terms of doing that more with politically incorrect material. For whatever reason it won't show on Wayback.
What is, "wayback"?
Book idea. "Judge & Warrior" by Jon Harris. Based off of Revelation 19 😀
Did you just give Mr.Haris a book idea for a third book?
Lol
Dane mentions more than once that there is a difference between believers and unbelievers. He is very clear that only those who are Christians are forgiven. I think you need to take another listen and listen closely.
The GAB community would like that documentary, maybe get Andrew torba to share it on there or repost your post.
It’s a dangerous book! Saw how this book impacted our church and not in a good way. Our pastor at the time told us how much this book has influence him and he then fell into grave sin along with others.
Hey John watched the enemies with in the church last night. So informative and not going to lie a little unnerving. Great work and god bless.
Someone sent me this: Seems legit, and much more thorough than my analysis- Jon, you might be interested in this critique-review of the book:
eardstapa.wordpress.com/2020/09/08/review-gentle-and-lowly-the-heart-of-christ-for-sinners-and-sufferers/
Good honest review. My church has been giving away copies of this book. The book’s main point seemed a bit off to me. At the center of Christ should be his holiness and righteousness. His gentleness derives from his righteousness, not the other way around.
My church has been doing the same………but one of my pastors came from a super legalistic, fundamentalist background. I picked it up, but got bored with it……..
I appriciate many of your videos Josh but this feels like you are finding a reason to not like it. The language is inline with the topic of the book. He also says on the book that this is Jesus approach to does who are in Him.
Going through this book in a small group. My wife and I both agree there is something off about the attitude in this book. Of course we agree as we follow Christ we should be meek, compassionate, kind, loving, etc. but this book goes in a direction that we feel is almost extra-biblical while also taking some Biblical texts out of context. Many of the ideas in the book are taken from Puritan quotes and are then connected to verses that are broken down out of context. The writer does a disservice to both Scripture and also to the Puritans that he quotes. I’m not saying everything in the book is wrong, but the way the writer connects the ideas in the book to Scripture is just off. In short, the ideas may be correct but they are clearly eisegetical in nature.
Calvinist Putitans are coming from a particular anthropological perspective that is anything but effeminate. John is WaY off here again.
@@johntobey1558 I certainly agree with you on the Puritans! But I think it is Ortlund who is off here, not John.
You should advertise on rumble and locals
Please define Christian Nationalism. I looked it up but could only find sources I do not trust.
I go into detail in “Christianity and Social Justice- Religions in Conflict.”
This book marshalled really close to crossing the doctrine of Gods simplicity.
There's so many books out there about what the Bible says that to get people to buy they need to write something new.
The book struck me as trying to make people comfortable in their sin. No emphasis at all on denying yourself and following Christ. It is really a man-centered book.
Bill are you kidding me? First, the book unpacks depths of puritan works and theology….oh yeah there’s a bunch of people who were shy on talking about sin.
Second, you can’t tell me you actually read the book and made the above comment. The book isn’t about personal sin, it’s about who Jesus is despite our sin and how Jesus, who came to die and defeat the power of sin, operates. Bro, the Gospel message is about forgiveness of sins…not the power of sin.
@@josiahley11 Josiah, thanks for the feedback. For a book written to Christians, I expect more. Salvation is the beginning; it is forgiveness we cannot earn for sure. Still, the letters of the apostles spend a whole lot more time exhorting Christians to repentance and good works than on the initial moment of salvation. Read Pilgrims Progress. We, the church, are stuck in the slough of despond. We need to cry out to the Lord for help to get us out of the slough, not make us comfortable in it.
@@josiahley11 Exacly - I did not come away thinking "Great I can sin more". Instead it help me underdand that His love for me is independent of my sins and that makes me fight harder to stay obident to His word and to feel constable to bring it all to Him
I'm a third the way through and so set free by the aspect of coming to Jesus with my sin. His analogy of Jesus being a doctor who is eager to heal and run to you with help, when you ask ... Instead of feeling like filth that he doesn't need to deal with.
?
Seems deceitful that GTY would put out a critique of a book but then quietly delete it without any explanation why they changed their minds. Some damage has been done and word is out that GTY thinks there are problems with this book. They should explain themselves as Ortlund is a brother in Christ.
I was only able to read three chapters and I had to put it down. I think this book is dangerous in that it is presenting a bunch of half-truths asserting themselves a whole truths and resulting in complete untruths. The author continues to neglect the whole revelation of Jesus and plays if off as "biblical" while overtly neglecting the Bibles revelation of the nature and Character of God. I have a much fuller writeup on the first two chapters, But Google will not let me put it up. (I think because it is too long) If there is a way to direct message you (anyone interested) I will share it with you.
The author himself admits you are unable to separate actions on character. pg 15, paragraph 2) "we are not focusing centrally on what Christ has done. We are considering who he is. The two matters are bound up together and indeed interdependent."
The stuff you read from that book is easily described. It’s gay. Why is everyone just going out of their way to be so effeminate these days?!
This was a fantastic upload. grace thankfully does more than forgive sins.... it changes us. Without grace we will not be authentically changed to be more and more like Jesus Christ! Grace makes you possess attributes That GOD Himself has... Holiness, wisdom, power, mercy etc... look at Paul, Peter, John...
The apostles knew and know what grace can do... Look at Peter.. what did he do with grace... read peter's letters... read acts.... supposedly Peter asked to be crucified upside down because he knew what he was.... yet look at what he did for the Lord.
God selects basket cases and changes them... look among you .. paul says.... God has chosen the weak and lowly to confound the wise... Look at the apostles... ha.... Galileans ... what can be done with those smelly hicks.... Jesus Christ responds... i will turn the world upside down with them....
I don't disagree, but if you are properly grounded on the divinity of Jesus, then this book helps you to understand the humanity of Jesus.
Finally a moderating voice of reason on this handle.
Glad it helped you. My concern is that the author takes license on both the divinity and humanity of Jesus. I can’t imagine stating that Jesus finds our sin irresistible. So many good comforting truths but then mixed with unusual romantic sounding language.
I would hope a proper understanding of both could be obtained from simply going to Scripture.
@@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast Jude 23c--our sin is not irresistible to the Lord.
I think this book is dangerous. People are reading this book and putting in their mind that Jesus is only gentle and lowly.
They devote so much of study to this book that it seems to almost replace the bible to them.
Jesus is more than gentle and lowly.
Jesus is gentle and lowly because amongst many attributes he is almighty. Jesus being gentle is not significant if he is not wrath and just.
This book is dangerous and should be stayed away from.
This review is very, very off-base. I get the impression that you have not read the book at all, at least not carefully. He addresses the things you criticize, the things you say he does not take into consideration.
Ohio State hat... really Jon?
#GoGators
#Tebow
#NationalChampionship
#FinalScore 41-14
Jon the only thing missing from your office , the five Solas hanging on the wall behind you ! I think many have grown up with this picture of Jesus smiling at them, one hand reaching out, a little lamb across his shoulders, and that's pretty much the only Jesus they've known.
David F.Wells Ph.d "No place for truth" and Mark Noll's scandal of tge Evangelical Mind" very helpful fir an appraisal from 25 years ago. . Pre-trumplicanism.
@@johntobey1558 who are you John? You seem (because of numerous comments you post) to be here as an antidote to Mr Harris. To be very blunt, I am questioning why you'd continue to watch his podcasts.
@@johntobey1558 Love Wells! Couldn’t stand Noll. Not sure what that has to do with any of this though.
@@johntobey1558 Pre-trumplicanism ? Clarification or explanation please.
@@johntobey1558 I know going back as far as 1984 that Noll has been in the evangelical Democrat camp along with Tony Campolo, Bill Hybels, Jim Wallis et al. I am sure Noll is very happy about what is going on in the evangelical intelligentsia these days.
I Michigan people might start a boycott if you keep wearing that hat but not me. Go bucks!
I watched a few of the videos and quit soon thereafter. I felt like it was demasculinizing Jesus.
You cannot know Jesus' heart by ignoring His wrath. That's an unfaithful bias.
The Church is Christ's Bride. How's that for effeminate?
I haven't read "Gentle and Lowly", and I appreciate you emphasizing God's disgust and hatred of our sin in contradiction to what the book, apparently, claims.
Did you watch the video?
We are all, to some degree, the passive (and therefore "effeminate"?) recipients of God's grace.
Biblical language is preferable to romance novel language if we’re trying to accurately depict our relationship with Christ.
Not sure if you knew, but it's based Heavily on some of Thomas Goodwin's work, particularly the heart of Christ...
I found it a good read, I agree pacing wise it was a little hard to read, it felt disjointed in parts - but the overall thesis I think was fine, perhaps your critique of a lopsided view of one aspect of Christ is an issue
Wimpy, wimpy, wimpy I prefer the robust carpenter with the callused hands
Could be. I’m not a big Goodwin fan either. If we keep our relationship with Christ within the bounds of biblical language I think we do better. Like I said, I didn’t sense heresy necessarily, just sloppiness that could allow for it.
People want to act like if a person includes a bunch of quotes from a Puritan or well-respected theologian in their own book, that it somehow makes it bulletproof because "its based heavily off of [insert big name theologian here]"
oooookkkk
Any god outside you is fake and classic theology looking and waiting for their god to come, Luke 17:20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. And its not about male or female nor history, Conscience is truth about Devine Allegories about you and God IN YOU.
Seems like your review, loaded with pre-conceived judgments, so not really reliable, appealed to your followers who want to talk about sin more. Interesting. The book talks A LOT about sin but how we need to view our sin in light of who Jesus is, ultimately stoking the flames of belief and faith. And this is problematic? Effeminate? Wow.
“ do not minimize your sin or excuse it away. Raise no defense. Simply take it to the one who is already at the right hand of the father, advocating for you on the basis of his own rules. But your own and righteousness, and all your darkness and despair, drive you to Jesus, the righteous, and all his brightness and sufficiency.” (P. 94)
I don’t get how you can be so critical on a book that’s simply exploring deeper the character of Christ….but no, let’s talk about judgment and sin more. Let’s talk about Jesus more, which is what this book does!
Did you listen to the video? Never said viewing sin in light of Jesus is effeminate. Never said the book didn't talk about sin. The whole point was on the thesis of the book- that the fundamental heart of Jesus is gentle and lowly to the detriment of other attributes (i.e. the creation of a separation between God's attributes and His heart). I had no pre-conceived judgements before reading it- Sounds like you have some about me.
@@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast Your bias was obvious when you criticized the authors dad, the author, and others with broad judgments that clearly influenced your argument. That’s an unfair way to handle a theological review. Just read through the comments and it’s obvious you succeeded in planting a flag of suspicion before you even began your argument.
Objectively, I think the author addresses the issue you bring up. His attempt isn’t to discount the other attributes, but to dive deep into the gentle and lowly character of Christ to help us better understand Jesus’ perspective on things as to not neglect knowing the Jesus, friend of sinners. Reminds me of a video of John Dawson teaching on the Father Heart of God.
Initially I was unsure about the book because of its title. However Ortlund's conservative theology and use of Puritan quotes gave it such strength and credibility. ( There was nothing feminine about the Puritans!) Personally it helped me more in my struggle with sin than anything else I was trying including tough bible teaching!!
I was surprised and blown away. I found my confidence in who Jesus is grew sweeter and sin less appealing. Clearly the work of the Spirit in my life. As a fellow Complementarian, I have to say I felt a few of your comments about the book (good for a women's book club) were a little mysoginistic.