Engaging Tim Keller on the Doctrine of Hell
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- Опубликовано: 8 дек 2022
- Jon continues a short series on Tim Keller's theology.
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I'm just a simple man from the hills of Appalachia. And back where I come from, we have a word for people like Tim Keller, "liar." I hope that isn't too technical a term, because it is the best descriptor for someone as bankrupt of truth as Keller.
I find with alot of these types of people they will be very muddy and vague on what they believe to the point where they never answer a direct question. However, they leave you in no doubt about what they DON'T believe. I am thinking of What Macarthur said about NT Wright (Wrong) and could apply equally to Keller. I would say a good litmus test is if you don't get a very direct answer from someone on any theological point.... run
@@marknolan5182 Exactly! Sadly, my pastor thinks it's still OK to use TK's book for teaching young adults about work. He and an elder thanked me for my concern about it but the facts about TK that I gave them were considered as things taken out of context whereas when I chose them, I did my best to give the ones with the clearest contexts--one of them was the Veritas Forum's video in which David Eisenbach asked TK whether h0mos€xualit¥ is a s!n and if hom0sexuα|s are going to h€ll. I still go to that church just because it's the best option in my country--the gospel is preached at all times (my pastor is American and quite familiar with the terms "w¤ke" and "so©i@l just!c€").
@@marknolan5182 Spot on!
@marknolan5182 I get the logic, and that can be a good response, but depending on the person and the subject being discussed, some might want to be cautious about being overly dogmatic on an idea because it's either not something that demands it or to avoid saying something wrong on a messy and complex subject. In other words, it could be a sign of humility and modesty. It's not always a sign of anything bad. Discernment over the context of the situation matters.
Hireling is another word for fake pastors. I often wonder why commitments to denominations are stronger than commitments to the Bible and traditional confessional theology?
Hell isn't the absence of God. It's the presence of his wrath.
Yes. Revelation 14:10 "... he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb".
Wow, we've been telling people these very insights about Keller since 2011.
And taken A LOT of guff for it.
Refreshing to see your spiritual discernment and biblical knowledge! Thank you for warning the church about this man's teaching.
In 2014 I was given a Keller book called The Prodigal God.
At that point I didn't know who Keller was. I remember reading the book and thinking, "This is complete garbage."
Later on I heard his false teaching, and when I connected him back to that book, it make a lot of sense.
When I first discovered Redeemer, I sent them an email saying if I could, I'd move to NY to attend there. I was so excited to see a church that really seemed to get into the nitty gritty of urban life and was making a difference. They had some good teaching at some point. I'm not sure what happened. That's why all of this makes me so sad.
Thank you, John.
My kids attend a redeemer plant here in Los Angeles and it's floundering. I hadn't heard his theological errs so we'll and concisely presented. That 10% err is significant. My children lead worship there. The whole church lacks enthusiasm and the songs oddly lack crescendo. But it is a gig? Praying for them to expand employment with the Gaither, which is his other part time gig. Right?
Thanks John! I left a Vineyard church over Social Justice and the pastor proudly pointed to a shelf filled with Keller’s books stating “he’s my guy”. I’m so sad for all the people in the congregation who have been deceived.
Vineyard churches can be dangerous for multiple reasons. Calvary Chapel would be better.
@@brich2542 why? Would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks!
@@Brandaniron 1 John 4
King James Version
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
If it brings in the crowds it must be true? Well, concert halls are full of rap fans but does that mean rap music is holy?
@@brich2542 I am a former Pentecostal. I disagree. I would not recommend any Pentecostal/Charismatic churches whatsoever. The reason is most of them are contaminated to some degree with the Word of Faith prosperity/health/wealth movement.
Thank you for frankly saying that Keller's exegesis was "stupid". That also applies to BigEva pushing the idea that Revelation 7:9 means that every local church is supposed to demonstrate a great deal of ethnic diversity. Does that mean you should go to Nigeria and ask the people in churches there "Where are your Latinos? Where are your Far Easterners?"
Lol, yup. That was one of the last sermons from the church i moved away from
A footnote in the MacArthur Study Bible (ESV) outlines five types of wrath:
• Eternal wrath (hell)
• Eschatological wrath (Day of the Lord)
• Cataclysmic wrath (the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah)
• Consequential wrath (sowing and reaping)
• The wrath of abandonment (given over)
Very helpful thanks
Jon, I listen to most of your shows, which means I spend 4-5 hours with you a week on average. I’ll likely never meet you, but I wanted to say I’m thankful for you brother. Your research, your tact, your love for the gospel/Scripture. You have helped me tremendously in my ministry in Decatur, AL by being a voice that is saying things/thinking about things outside of the mainstream. I hope you read this and it encourages you to press on. If I don’t meet you before then, maybe we can share a cup of coffee in glory. Thanks bro!
I'm pretty much the same. Jon is on high rotation for me.
You press on too brother!
Agreed, I've been listening since around 2018 or '19. So thankful in this messed up day and age.
I’m in Hartselle, AL! Do you mind sharing your ministry? We came out of a church in Decatur that was heavy on Keller.
Keller almost sounds like Tim Mackie of the Bible Project saying, "Hell or whatever we call it, is a place where God respects those who did not chose Him."
Ha! Tim Mackie and his Bible Project are absolutely dire. If Tim Mackie were a bit more gripping as a speaker, you would think he was setting up a cult. His teachings are really bizarre. Judging by the name "The Bible Project" and the team's abundant use of diagrams to accompany his talks, you would think they are a useful presentation of the Bible in a nutshell, helpful to newcomers to Christianity, a summary of the Bible. Uh-uh, not a bit of it. To give one taster of their cockeyed new religion, they say the Temple was intended as a representation of the Garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve were priests. That's totally wrong. The temple was the place appointed by God as the one place where sinners could be put right with Him by a sacrifice. The Garden of Eden was a place innocent of sin, and when sin entered man was driven out and the garden was closed to him, so Eden was absolutely nothing like a temple. Priests are go-betweens between a sinner and a holy God, and they offer a sacrifice; but, again, Adam and Eve were innocent of sin and therefore had no need of priests, and certainly were not themselves priests. Tim Mackie is a 100% crazy false teacher.
Your description of "yes, Jesus works for me" is exactly what I thought of Mika Peterson's "conversion" to "Christianity."
I think you are the first Christian voice that I have ever heard say straightforwardly that there are problems with Lewis. I was not raised on the Narnia books so I was able to see Lewis with fresh eyes in late high school. I picked up on some problematic things immediately and I’ve added some concerns since then. Thank you. I’ve always wondered why these issues seem 100% overlooked by literally everyone. 😅
Maybe Jon doing something in depth on Lewis would be useful? Lewis was not a theologian and I am not sure why Keller would rely on him so heavily.... well maybe that's why. I'm not well versed in Lewis, I've read one or 2 of his books and I think he is useful although I think he was more philosophical? I'd say Keller is more like a William Lane Craig in that he's philosophical as well.
Actually, Pulpit & Pen published an article titled "Concerns About the Ministry of C.S. Lewis" in April 2016.
I read C S Lewis's essays on theology and philosophy for years from about 16 or 17 years old to my early 20s. I loved his philosophical and logical style. But eventually I realised I was reading him more than my Bible. And later still it occurred to me that Lewis rarely quotes from the Bible, which in a Christian defending Christianity is a serious fault. His arguments, I think, are generally very good, though I am no good at constructing a logical argument myself or recognising how a logician constructed his argument. I recognise, too, that Lewis may have toyed with evolution, which, if he did, is another serious weakness, though I believe the whole of evangelicalism in the 1940s and '50s felt unable to fight Darwin's theory, so for a non-scientist like Lewis to skirt around the issue is not surprising. BUT despite these caveats I truly would recommend reading his essays on Punishment (which I think an absolutely superb presentation of the need for punishment, not rehabilitation, including the death penalty for murder) and on the dangers of trying to redesign human nature, which is what transhumanists including Klaus Schwab are aiming to do. Lewis is just superb on that latter subject in 'The Abolition of Man' and 'Men Without Chests'. The very fact that he was fighting that kind of thinking back in about the 1950s is in one way an encouragement: it is a great help to see that the threats we face today are not totally new, they have been met and fought before, and we can learn from past fighters and gain encouragement and insight from their battles.
@@stephenfennellgood assessment. I see CS Lewis as more like a George Orwell. He was prescient about the culture and the left however I clearly think there are better sources for Christians to rely on.
The problem with C.S. Lewis that he was not an Evangelical. His theology and philosophy comes from the high church Anglo-Catholic or Tractarian movement in the Church of England. It's very much like Roman Catholic-lite. The Anglo-Catholics claim to be a middle ground between Roman Catholicism and the Protestant faith. But is there middle ground between the gospel and a false gospel?
This video deserves WAY more hits
When you critique Keller on his statement that the fire is figurative, by pointing out that the figure is about something much worse, well, that’s exactly what Keller says too.
I think this critique is without basis.
Keller gives Rob Bell a pass with this heretical view of hell. Dangerous.
The thing I appreciate most in Lewis' work as I get older is how well he nailed, with some prescience, the shape evil takes as cruel, sterile, totalitarian bureaucracy. Perhaps he didn't quite come to terms so well with just, divine wrath. Understandable, but regrettable and easily leveraged into this subjective, self-deterministic thing. I can see something like a point here if I squint - but you cannot simply dismiss the decree and role of the Creator. Who prepared the vessels of wrath for destruction? It wasn't the vessels themselves.
To Truttle: A few lines before the end of your comment, you say "you cannot simply dismiss ...". By "you" do you mean "you, Jon Harris", or "a person in general"?
@@stephenfennell "You" in general. Namely Keller in this instance.
Hell is horrifying. I cannot comprehend how we can share the gospel without it. What are we telling people they need to be "saved" from, if not God's wrath?! I can't remember the last sermon I heard even mention hell. Honestly, I'm starting to wonder if even Christians read the Bible anymore. (Aside from maybe favorite passages and the bits found in daily devotional materials.)
There really is a great lack of biblical foundation for the huge and horrifying doctrine of hell and eternal conscience torment. Many people are being called heretics for challenging a doctrine based more on tradition than the Bible.
The Bible's teaching on hell is found mostly in the direct teaching of our Lord Jesus, of whom we are disciples. There is much also in Revelation (the introduction of which tells us "Blessed is he that readeth and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.") Rev 20:15 says "And whosever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Luke 12: 5 says "Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." Hell is a place that God casts people into, and it is a place we must fear greatly. Matthew 25:41 says "Then shall [the King] say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." The gospels speak of the wicked as being cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, and where their worm never dies. The rich man in hell says "I am tormented in this flame." (Luke 16:24). In Mark 9:43 the Lord Jesus says "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" - which he repeats twice more to make absolutely sure we hear and understand and remember. The Bible's teaching on Hell is very clear.
Thanks for the podcast on Keller. Honestly, I've never heard of Tim Keller until the CRT controversy burst forth two years ago and the documentary you produced on his background and how the radical sixties influenced him. It seems that the post sixties liberal movement allowed Keller to find a niche for his false teachings to spread.
I heard a program online about exegetical preaching years ago with Tim Keller and Edmund Clowney. I could see a stark contrast between the careful exegesis of Clowney and the the loose approach of Keller. The sad part is Clowney never once corrected Keller's mistakes in the program. The reason these false teachers prevail is that pragmatic results are viewed as more desirable than the truth. So what if you can fill a building with unbelievers if none of them are truly regenerate?
For someone who was ardently against using a "loaded word like identity" in a PCA overture about gender identity, Keller certainly likes to talk about identity a lot.
About 10 years ago, my daughter and her husband recommended that I listen to Tim Keller. My son-in-law even put a shortcut on my computer to his sermons. Both of them really loved Tim Keller and were sending their children to a Redeemer church sponsored Christian school in a large city where they lived. I knew that Tim Keller was a Presbyterian and so was I when I first became a Christian as a teenager in the 70's. Anyway, I listened to one of his sermons from Genesis on creation. To say the least, it was very different and off-center from the creation sermons I had listened to at my Baptist church and ones from Dr. David Jeremiah. Tim Keller starts off talking about what an authority he was on Scripture and how the book of Genesis was (I think he said) a book of poetry. That was it for me, I deleted the shortcut and never listened to him again. About two years later, my daughter started drifting away from believing in Hell - even got mad at my Baptist preacher who introduced the doctrine of Hell to vacation bible school students (when her two daughters were in attendance). The pastor didn't do it in a scary way, but enough to make the kids aware of it. For me, that was the first sign of something wrong in my daughter's theology. When she first got married, she and her husband were doing bible studies in her home and taking the children to church. For Christmas one year, I bought a Systematic Theology book for my son-in-law at his request. (At that time, I didn't even know what systematic theology was!) What I'm trying to say is that I thought both of them were grounded in the Christian faith and trying to live it out. Fast forward to 2022, they have stopped going to church, the kids are in public school, and my daughter and her husband have become social justice warriors. My son-in-law's half-sister is a lesbian and has a partner (whose father was a pastor - so she knows how to twist scripture). They spend their vacation time with the lesbian couple who have replaced me and my husband in their lives and those of their kids. Their oldest daughter (our granddaughter) identifies herself as non-binary. All three girls have their pronouns posted on their bedroom doors that they want a person to use when addressing them. The middle child is a militant feminist and the youngest one is very confused and searching for an identity. I'm afraid that my daughter and her husband have become apostates! I pray for all of them everyday (at least 3 times/day) that they will wake-up, repent and turn back to God, but it doesn't look good from here. I'm not blaming Tim Keller for all of this terrible stuff, but I sure don't think his theology worked for my family.
Oh dear God, I feel sick reading your post. It's unbelievable that people can fall so far into such vile perversions, and even WANT their children to do so too. I pray that God will bring your daughter and son-in-law back from that ugly pit, and bring your grandchildren back with them too.
My heart is breaking for you as I read your post. Continue to pray for your daughter, son in law and grandchildren, asking God to remove the blinders from their eyes, and they’ll find a solid bible believing church.
@@valeriehancock1724 Thank You! Nothing is impossible for God!
Hi. I hear you loud and clear, a very trying time for you. With all seriousness keep praying.
My heart grieves for you and your wife. I'll be adding your daughter and her family to my prayers 🙏🏽
Thank you for this, Jon. You are a truly a treasure used by the Lord in this terrible apostate times. The number of people I've known who think Keller so wonderful - people who have no discernment - breaks my heart. i praise God that when He was first growing me, and growing in me discernment, He alerted me in my spirit to avoid Keller when youth leaders I worked with sung his praises. So glad! So many "Christians" are yoked to the world because of their gross mischaracterization of God the Father and the Son, and of course, also the Spirit.
“He alerted me in my spirit to avoid Keller”. I felt the same.
It is odd to compare homosexuality to greed but in this day & age it is easy to get away with it. But let’s say you compare pedophilia to greed. Would he still say “pedophilia doesn’t send you to hell?” It’s shocking to hear these types of words come out of a “pastors” mouth. When are people going to wake up & stop listening to this guy?!?! In my own Southern Baptist church they quote Keller at times. I just want to say a BIG THANK YOU for parsing these out for us. Often times I hear things that are off & it helps so much to know the Holy Spirit is showing us truth. I have shared your other longer video of Keller to others. It was so helpful as well as your critique on Latasha Morrison. God bless you & your work of exposing & warning of false teachers.
Ha! I just realized I commented on the wrong video…I should have commented on your other one of Keller & sin. I guess I need to watch this one too!! Good work.
I guess you aren't seeing the parable of the text he was referring to - Tim Keller says:
{C.S. Lewis puts it like this: he says “in the long run, the answer to those who reject to the doctrine of hell is itself a question. What are you asking God to do? To wipe out past sins and at all costs give them a fresh start? He did on calvary. To forgive them but they don’t ask for forgiveness. To leave them alone? That’s what hell is. There are only two kinds of people in the end, those who say to God, “thy will be done”, and those to whom God says in the end, “thy will be done”. All that are in hell choose it. Without that self choice, it wouldn’t be hell.”}
He wasn't saying people who is addicted to something is living in hell, he said that people who are addicted is choosing the addictions and shifting blame onto others - they say: "You dont understand" etc, and it is SIMILAR to what they are going to BE like if they don't repent and go to hell. They - choose - it
Previously in Tim's sermon he said:
{Look at the insanity, look at the out of touch with reality, that characterizes people in hell. Commentators have noted for a long time that the rich man, is astonishingly blind and in denial and filled with blame shifting. So for example notice, that even though here’s Lazarus up in heaven, look at where he is, he’s in hell, he’s still ordering Lazarus around. He still wants Lazarus to come and cool his tongue, he still expects him to be his servant. And notice something else, he does not ask to get out of hell, he just tries to get Lazarus in. *He doesn’t ask to get out, and he strongly insinuates that God didn’t give enough information.* You know now go to my five brothers and give them the information, now what’s that, hint hint, “I didn’t get enough information, nobody understands and I shouldn’t even really be here and besides that, it’s not so bad, I really don’t want to be up there with that you know, all that humbug up there, whatever you’re doing up there but would you please send somebody down here to give me a little break.” Summary, hell is just a freely chosen identity based on something else besides God going on forever.}
He goes by scripture. Maybe his teachings is a bit higher grade and harder to understand, but what you are doing is making him out to be a false theologian. He glorifies Jesus all the time. He preaches directly from the bible. He teaches about being baptized. He teaches about taking accountability for your sins. He teaches about ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’. He teaches to Fear God.
I believe we as Christians should stick together and if the true gospel is preached, not to twist words if you don't understand it.
Very interesting. The problem is when the exact kinds of behavior and far worse psycho-social pathologies spread throughout the culture with Woke movements, as you describe in your text about Lazarus, when they came to Tim Keller he was "loving" them to death, "affirming" their evil and self-indulgence, in the name of God and Jesus and all things seminary-educated and book-writerly-wise, holy, & superiorly good, not to mention JUDGMENTAL.
This is very similar to what the creator of the Bible Project believes about hell. He thinks hell is created by man and is observed on earth only.
Years ago, a college friend introduced me to Tim Keller but I was never impressed by him! I listened to a sermon (if one could call it that) and it seemed more like a Ted Talk than anything else. His approach to the text sounded more like some confused Athenian Philosopher on Mars Hill than a Prophet crying in the Wilderness! He never uses a lot of scripture. He quotes extensively from secular thinkers instead of the Bible and I personally find that problematic.
I grew up in a rural South Georgia town. There aren’t many strong Churches in my area. There’s a lot of need for sound biblical churches to be planted but according to Tim Keller it’s all about reaching the cities! I’m not against urban evangelism but the impression, one would get from listening to him is that unless one is doing ministry in any of the major cities than that particular one isn’t obedient or effective, in his witness for Christ and I have a serious problem with that. I don’t even enjoy listening to that song, “The GOD of this city,” anymore!
I read his little book entitled, “Prodigal GOD,” and thinking to myself, ‘wait a minute, I’m the prodigal one here!’ I also read Dr. John MacArthur’s book on the Prodigal Son and that was one of my favorite books written by him!
"There’s a lot of need for sound biblical churches to be planted but according to Tim Keller it’s all about reaching the cities! I’m not against urban evangelism but the impression, one would get from listening to him is that unless one is doing ministry in any of the major cities than that particular one isn’t obedient or effective, in his witness for Christ and I have a serious problem with that."
Yes! This has bothered me for years! Sometimes I forget, because I do live in a big city, so whatever is going on here is where my mind usually is. I have seen this unbalanced emphasis constantly in my own church experience and it's never sat well with me.
There are lost people everywhere. And there are faithful pastors and churches everywhere. God doesn't judge our faithfulness by how big our church is and how many ministries it has. You can have a church of 5,000 with ministries all over the city, and have poor biblical teaching, no discipleship, and people who are not living obedient lives. You can have a church of 50, with strong biblical teaching, discipleship, that reaches out/serves their small community and who seek to be obedient to Christ.
I understand the strategic reasons of urban ministry. There's something to be said for the fact that there's a lot of business and travel and universities and people coming and going. I get it. But smaller communities have their strengths as well. People often stay in the same area for generations. If you're living godly lives, reaching those around you, and raising Christ honoring families, that will also have a huge impact! It may take longer. Maybe it's not as "flashy". But God doesn't care about that. He looks for faithfulness.
Thank you for bringing up this point. Between personal life stuff and everything going on in the culture the past few years, I've been overwhelmed and haven't thought about this in a while.
Jordan, I notice all the "biblical," Catholic and Protestant teachers that constantly quote writers and teachers of the past as their proof texts.
These are the people I immediately stop following.
I then move on to others, like John MacArthur, whose calvinism beliefs are also contractictory to scripture, and I strike them off my list.
In all things God's truth, not Thomas Aquinas's truth is all that matters.
The good news is God makes available to all that seek His truth will be given the truth.
All of us should ask the Holy Spirit to show us the truth, not any human.
So American Gospel was a catalyst for me towards the actual gospel and reformed theology. I can only say that I wonder if he (the director Brandon Kimber) would interview the same people now knowing what they've stood for in the past 3 years. Its a great film. It had the best description of the gospel thst I had ever heart ytd in 2019 when I first watched it. The prosperity gospel isn't just that... it weaves into the charismatic church too, its tremendously damaging. I've been affected by it personally...
Kimber has said he would not have had those people in the documentary if he knew where they were going with their theology.
@@sarahd5341 who specifically has wandered off?
@@GolfinthefamilyMatt Chandler for 1.
@@kimmurphy72 Not aware of Chandler wondering from the gospel. Do you have any resources you can share on Chandler that show that? Thanks
@@TheDangerous123dan If you search Jon Harris and Matt Chandler, several things will pop up. Also, he was the one who said that if he was hiring staff, he’d hire a less qualified black man over a more qualified white man. 😢
Because JD Greear calls him Uncle Tim, so much of this has influenced his preaching. This is religion, not a relationship with God, our Creator, Jesus, our Lord & His Spirit, our Counselor!
Thank you for calling out the lies and liars! I’m so weary of these weak shepherds leading so many astray.
Amen!!! Salvation is 100% of God, not of free will or whatsoever.
You make it seem like a person’s will has nothing to do with accepting the free gift of salvation, or that this somehow would mean it wasn’t also 100% of God. 🤔
@@JonathanGrandt only God has free will. Men are either enslaved to sin or (after new birth by grace) to righteousness. You are only free when the Son makes you free (from sin), said Jesus himself. Blessings from Germany.
@@JonathanGrandtregeneration precedes faith. A dead man can’t and won’t choose God.
@@JonathanGrandt Many many Christians like you and I believe the Bible clearly teaches free will. There are many Calvanists on this site however, who do not believe in Free Will, but that God predetermined who goes to heaven and who goes to hell without any choice or responsibility of their own. We can differ in love on this hopefully. But if you are unfamiliar with this doctrinal difference, I would suggest listening to Dr. Leighton Flowers with Soteriology 101. I learned a lot from him. A very humble man who used to be a Calvinist and understands both sides very well.
Good to see a program on the late Tim Keller.
I still remember that review on Yelp about Redeemer Presbyterian Church. Nothing I've ever heard or read about Redeemer has ever been proven more accurate or cogent.
Excerpts edited for brevity and clarity:
COMMENT:
I have been to Redeemer West side and East side services. I still go from time to time. I used to take part in several of the volunteer opportunities at Redeemer.
So why only 3 stars? Because a church is more than just a pastor.
Now there is no perfect church. But there are some serious things lacking here:
First of all, there is no prayer meeting or focus on corporate prayer for the entire church. The very basic part of the Christian faith that Jesus himself said with his own lips was Matthew 21:13. "It is written," He said to them, "'My house will be called a house of prayer, but you are making it a den of robbers."
Prayer is just talking to God, it doesn't require any special talent, skill or training. So the lack of prayer at this church is very alarming to me.
And I haven't heard anyone speak of repentance at Redeemer --- ever. Again, I have listened to hundreds of sermons and been to at least a hundred services both on the West and East sides.
The church ministries are called "ministries" but are run like any secular organization.
Redeemer Presbyterian is run like a business, a well-oiled corporate machine, and not a church.
The other 2 things which are cultural and not spiritual but are off-putting to me are:
1. Most of the members and regular visitors to Redeemer are transplants, not New Yorkers, so the church is a large city church but run like a small town church where there are very few native New Yorkers. It seems most of the members are not established in the city and are just passing through.
2. The other is that it seems the majority of the congregation is looking for a spouse, and very aggressively. When you walk in, the first thing people do is look at your hand for a ring, and then are bold enough to ask if it is a wedding ring. That experience is not unique to me, but to all of the guests I bring here. In addition, in any volunteer group I have been to, the small talk from both men and women centered around trying to find a spouse. Then the few married people were usually complaining about their marriages. The pastor knows about this, and does see it as a problem because he addresses it in his sermons. But people don't seem to listen. It is like they are all living in 1950's rural America.
One other major problem I have with the church is that it is mostly white and Asian. I believe the reason is that the congregation ---- and this is not the pastoral team's fault --- seems to be focused on their careers and making money, and not on God at all. God is there to bless their agendas; this is how they seem to operate.
I believe this is true for a few reasons. One, the culture of the church and focus of the congregation seems to be on Whites and Asians who make good money and have high-end careers, rather than on God. A huge basic tenet of the Christian faith is Death to Self. But at Redeemer, when you hear testimonies approved by the pastoral staff, they usually start with the person's professional credentials. I do not see any Death to Self there, but actually the opposite: It's "Look at what I can do for God because of my high income and education." It is not wrong to have a high income or education as a Christian. But the focus (at Redeemer) is wrong.
So for these reasons, I think the church is best for those who are not Christians yet but are seekers of God, or those established in the faith already. It is not good in my opinion for the average believer looking for a home church. The church in my opinion is more intellectual than spiritual.
end
Thank you for this. I'm trying to remember if I ever read The Reason for God. I remember being interested in it back in the day. It was definitely THE hot book at that time. If I did read it, then I was asleep and somehow missed this stuff. His views are even worse than I thought. This was disturbing.
A pastor at a church I attended long ago used to insist that God doesn’t send people to hell, but rather they send themselves by their own choices… of course this is absurd and I told him as much. Yes. It is 100% God that casts people into hell.
And it is the people who make the decision by refusing the grace of God.
You know I came up with these same Keller ideas myself. As a big city guy in LA there is a temptation to appease the mockery around us. It's su h a blessing to find your mid America Bible believing truth. As an aside, I once studied the fundamental teach paid for by Lyman Steward here in LA. Really they were so poorly written and created such a poor reference point for others to look at when considering fundamentalism. Lyman Stewart may have killed the fundamentalism movement with his money. Christian nationalism should revive fundamentalism. Yet someone should historically establish that CN is restoring credibility of fundamentalism historically. You are that man. My humble opine.
I want to quibble a bit with this. I agree Keller is not solid and the idea that "hell is locked from the inside" can be taken too far. Yes, hell is a place of active torment, however, it also is a place when the sinner is given over to their sin and hatred of God. One of the most common biblical phrases for hell is "weeping and gnashing of teeth." The "weeping" is about torment, the "gnashing" is about intense hatred. I agree with James White, who is no Tim Keller, that those in hell scream their hatred of God and thus it is "locked from the inside".
As always, many thanks Jon for doing the yeoman's work on exposing weak and false teaching in Big-Eva.
Merry Christmas to you and yours.
So glad I found you.
Keller has long had a reputation of being weak on the wrath of God. At the same time, if the choice was between submission to Jesus and staying in hell, fallen human beings will choose hell every time.
I believe that unrepentant men will remain unrepentant even in hell. They will want to be in heaven, but if allowed into heaven they would return to their selfish, evil behavior. They will know why they are in hell, and they will know that their punishment is deserved. Look at the behavior of people during the tribulation. They are terrified of God's judgements, but the Bible says they refuse to repent and turn from their sins.
You have no basis whatsoever for your belief.
@@JonathanGrandt Rev. 16:9 They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, BUT THEY REFUSED TO REPENT AND GLORIFY HIM.
Romans 14:11 For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written: “As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God.”
Isaiah 45:23, Philippians 2:10
These passages make it clear that EVERYONE will acknowledge that God is just and holy. Pharaoh new the plagues were from God, but he CHOSE to harden his heart. The nation of Israel suffered God's judgements because of her rebellion, but they still refused to turn from their sin.
I can't stay up until 2am in France. I will have to watch it tomorrow.
Bonne nuit 🌙🌠
My first red flag was his “poetry” take on Genesis in “The Reason For God” and then deciding to write for the BioLogos (Francis Collins) website. I have family members that question Genesis and thereby have a low view of the Bible overall. At the same time asserting they are OK with Jesus. Ideas have consequences.
Is there source material to this. I’m trying to convince my elders to stop supporting TGC…
Thanks Jon.
A have 4 or 5 of his books that I've left on my best bookshelf, because the spines have nice spine colours and designs (a lot of Christian books do not). Reading a few of the comments while the video goes through the intro, I'm wondering if I'll have to throw them out, lest anyone read them or thinks I read them.
I would destroy them. Keller is dangerous and is leading many into the real hell. His false doctrine tickles the ears and takes people down the wide road to destruction.
Sounds like you have given yourself some good advice!
@@jaredcrusen3072 Yes. Listening to the clips of Keller made me feel back in time, when I heard him multiple times a week. He seems to be so understanding of the Bible, with new, fresh insight and a warm, friendly delivery. Very enticing error - it's just sprinkled in, so it's easy to miss.
It was one thing John Mac said years before that kept bugging me about Keller and made me abandon his videos. John said that the only book we need for wisdom is the Bible, that it's rich enough to never need other books or words of man to make it sound better. Keller's love of referencing human authors ended up being a huge peeve.
How grateful I am for God being a gentle shepherd and saving me from that pit. I dove into others, enticed by sin, but his rod and his staff comfort me when they correct me!
CS Lewis was perplexed with "those who believe in faith apart from works to be justified" ('A Grief Observed'), what Lewis actually believed is difficult to nail down. His belief system appears to be closely related to Roman Catholicism, without him admitting it. Now, as things go, no one is going to read this post, and I suppose in the end will be rendered irrelevant, since he's already passed away and is already too late for him.
Yep. He’s a wolf. Been one for a while like you pointed out. Great job!
That will preach brother!
Good distinction to be made between God handling us over to the consequences of our sins vs. God throwing us in Hell against our will. Tim Keller tries to make Hell less offensive by arguing that nobody there wants to go to Heaven, which is not the portrait scripture paints when it talks about weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Well the gnashing of teeth actually refers to fury and anger. So that speaks to anger and fury at God….
I agree with your concerns regarding Keller. However I do disagree with the over simplification of Truman that you threw in at the end. Truman was not criticizing individualism as a force for politics and potential for good. He was pointing out that the enlightenment and then the romantics began the concept of what we now consider “identity” they clashed with the universal understanding of an individuals role in Gods creation. Any concept or philosophy made by man will lead to ruin merely by the short sided understanding and perspective that is mortality. We can’t see the implications of all our decisions. Hence the continuing need to rely upon God and His truths. Therefore the Good does not reside at the feet of individualism or collectivism, but at the feet of Jesus.
Rat poison- 99% good, 1% deadly.
Reminds me of Ravi…dazzles people with his so-called intelligence and wisdom 😞
I read Tim Kellers treatment of Edwards and he in fact says the same thing you say, that though descriptions of hell contain metaphor, the metaphors actually don’t scrape the surface of the reality.
I think Keller was looking at hell through the same glasses but different lens. Are people that end up in hell there by choice? Sure, they loved the darkness more than light. What sends the people there in the first place? By the execution of judgement, God, but also the self righteousness of those who will not submit to the sacrifice of Christ for them.
This is what I find troublesome for Calvinists, it is the either or in reference to Gods doing or man’s doing. It’s both. Gods sovereignty is stable enough to allow choice and also secure in its consequence so that the choice does not alter the framework of Gods will. In the same way hell is both the result of man running from God into sin and falling justly into the wrath of Gods judgement on sin. It just seems at times the perspective can favor one aspect without addressing the other.
My thought has always been, even if hell is not literal fire, that actually means it will be much worse.
I would have to conclude that at the 42 minute mark that people are laughing at Kellers description of God sending people to hell because it is an extreme characterization. God wills that no one perish. To characterize God as taking pleasure in torment is to disregard his desire for all to be saved. Until the door is shut he desires all to be saved. Looking at the execution of Gods judgement of plagues in Revelation you see the people God is judging refuse to repent and they curse God, they don’t beg for his forgiveness.
I too have a problem with people laughing over matters such as hell but I believe he is showing a defect in a lot of the way people characterize God. He is both loving and wrathful, just and merciful. To elevate to high one aspect without the other is to cast a disproportionate shadow. When God punishes sin and death for good he will be satisfied but those who fall under that judgement will still not humble themselves before God. They may wish to escape the anguish but not at the cost of worshipping God as Lord and Savior. It is evident in the state of Christianity now. People profess Christ, but reject the way of living that is consistent with being in Christ. People want the benefits of God without the direction of God in their life. In hell people appear to want the release of torment but reject the authority of God, just as Satan did, instead exalting themselves as God.
I am not saying that I will never change my view on this as I have not read or listened to all of Kellers treatment of the text, but in this regard I believe he is looking at hell in light of the human propensity for the love of darkness and the rejection of the light of Christ. The Pharisees are a prime example. When confronted with their sin, they do not humble themselves and search their hearts to see if they are in rebellion, instead they reject the truth and suppress it to their own destruction.
I don't think Keller or Lewis are necessarily contrary to the traditional teaching. In fact, I'd say they're very much in line with traditional Eastern Orthodox teaching in how they articulate it.
It is true that God sends people to hell. It is also true man chooses to go there. This isn't some new postmodern understanding.
You say "It is also true that man chooses to go there", but we mustn't blur things: what the sinner wants and chooses is sin. If he could have his way he would be allowed to sin for ever and never go to hell. He doesn't want his sin to lead him to the lake of fire, as is obvious from the fact that no one jumps into a lake of fire here on earth, though there are plenty of volcanoes that would give a little foretaste of hell. Hell is God's righteous response to sin. It is entirely His work, to punish and put an end to sin. Not a single sinner, not a single demon, not even Satan himself, ever chooses or wants hell. They choose and want sin. God puts an everlasting end to their sin by punishing it with utter misery and pain in the lake of fire.
Wow, you said we should warn people about the dangers of hell and not withhold that information and then you lock the PowerPoint notes for Patreon members only.
I think Lewis has a point, and it does not necessarily contradict the traditional understanding of hell. There most certainly are people who, if you were to ask them, would you rather go to Heaven to be with Jesus or go to hell, they would tell you straight up, "I would rather be in hell because I don't want to be in Heaven with all you Bible thumpers." Do they entirely know what they are saying? No, likely they doubt that the afterlife exists but they are sincere in their hatred of God and of holiness. They are sincere in their rejection of Christ. When the time comes that they stand before the Judge, they will probably freak out, never having prepared for the trial or the verdict. They won't want to go to hell then, but they will resent the imposition of the Judge anyway. They will both revile God for sending them to hell while insisting that they deserve to go to Heaven, where the God whom they hate lives and rules. No one's going to be actually happy to end up in hell, but it will be clear in the end that their own choices sent them there.
Also, I do think that sin is its own punishment in this life. Sin makes life complicated and dangerous. Sin opposes the design of humanity and the design of the world that God created. It cannot help but make life difficult and unpleasant, and often leads to premature death.
100% this. They might not want Hell as an active desire but they would choose Hell over bowing to God.
Exactly!
What Tim Keller and C.S. Lewis are doing is easily to understand if you know the philosophy of existentialism in the twentieth century ( Heidegger, Camus, Sartre) and the theologians like Bultmann. Let me explain a sentence from Camus " hell, that are the others". Camus means that the expectations others have of me are a torture for my existence here and now. Hell becomes reduced to an existential immanent state of mind here and now. What Keller and Lewis are doing is the same: they redefine hell as a state of mind, a self chosen state of mind. But hell is an objective inflicted torment of the body which is accompanied by a mental state of uncomfort. Hell is where you do not go voluntarily. You have to be thrown there. Tim Keller fell in love with his lies and since some days he knows that hell is real, it is to torment human beings who served Satan like him.
Keller is in this moment gnashing his teeth and weeping. Everybody who does and loves the lie will be dammned. EVERYBODY.
You are not God, you know nothing of the state of Tim Keller's soul.
"There are a lot of people who struggle mightily with this whole idea. They say, “If God is a God of love, he doesn’t send people to hell. If God is a God of judgment, he can’t be a God of love. I can’t reconcile the two things.” Yet the Bible insists that not only is God a God both of love and wrath-not only do those two things not conflict with each other, but they actually establish each other. One without the other is nonsense. One without the other is meaningless. If you actually try to somehow extract, remove surgically, excise the Christian message of the wrath and judgment of God, what you actually have is nothing left at all." - Timothy Keller, “Why Doesn’t Life Make Sense? His Justice” (October 25, 1992)
"Years ago, when I was a young minister, it was in the garden of Gethsemane that I came finally to grips, I made my peace as it were (it’s a strange way to put it), with the wrath of God. That might shock some of you that a preaching minister was struggling with the very idea of a God of wrath, a God who sends people to hell. The very idea of it was something that really I struggled with and I wrestled with. I hope that doesn’t shock you, but I did.
Then, it was studying the garden of Gethsemane when I finally came to peace with it because I realized the reason why people get rid of the idea of hell and wrath is because they want a loving God. They say, “I can’t believe in hell and wrath because I want a more loving God.”
I came to realize in the garden of Gethsemane that if you get rid of the idea of hell and wrath, you have a less loving God. . . . If you don’t believe in wrath and hell, it trivializes what he has done. If you get rid of a God who has wrath and hell, you have a god who loves us in general, but that’s not as loving as the God of the Bible, the God of Jesus Christ, who loves us with a costly love." - Timothy Keller, “The Dark Garden” (April 2, 2000)
By listening to Keller's sermons you find that he is anything but soft on the wrath of God.
Keller actually makes at least one explicit reference to the wrath of God in 13% of his sermons (ie. more than one in every ten sermons he mentions the wrath of God). Does your pastor do that? Do you Jon?
@davebootsma3378 That is interesting. There is obviously much in Keller that is sound, leading many to follow him and clearly adore him too much. But what happened when the culture was hit with BLM and the leftist domination through Woke of the church? Keller was definitely ALL in and on the side that is dominating as a ONE-WAY ethic & absolute worldview-a cult demanding submission. He was one of their favorites for doubling down on statistics to claim righteousness and other public declarations without warnings against their evils. He acted like he was in a purity bubble of lovey love utopian righteousness with the ideologues of Woke. If nothing else tracing what went wrong to make the best of pop Christianity so vulnerable is in order. What happened to his "belief" in hell? It was just a sermon? Popular preachers know what the can & can't say, what may work and what won't. When Woke came along, he was all in with the condemnation of others-to the Woke hell.
It is a blessed wake up call to come to the truth that we are not deserving,not entitled,not own
the incorruptible,the immortal gift from ADONAI 📖
John, thank you for always being a clear communicator and for presenting a well-thought-through message. I’ve learned so much from you and yes, although 80% of what Keller says may be accurate and in line with Scripture, I’m worried about the 20% of it that is poison.
I cant imagine that Adam and Eve were satisfied when they were thrown out of the Garden for rebelling against God
That's exactly my impression of Tim Keller!
While I was reading Romans 16:17-18 yesterday, I was suddenly reminded of TK.
While I don’t believe Tim Keller was right about everything, I certainly don’t think he was an apostate. He converted and maintained one of the largest single churches in one of the most secular cities in America for decades. His core teaching of the Gospel is objectively truthful, and as he went of with his life he never lost that core component of the gospel. I think he is the teacher that the modern west needed. He knew when to be hard and when to be soft in his teachings. His theology on the doctrine of hell, to me, was enlightening. He spoke of hell as being a spiritual place, not a physical place, just like heaven. It was not physical torture, but spiritual torture. That to me sounds far worse than physical torment. His knowledge of scripture and ability to connect with his congregation and even those outside it was truly unmatched by any preacher or pastor since Billy Graham. It does y’all no good to sit there and judge a man who gave his entire life to Christ, and continued to preach while dying a painful death from cancer. And he died with Christs name on his lips. How could a man die better? No man can know another’s salvation so don’t pretend to be all high and mighty because you watched one podcast. Tim wasn’t perfect, I’m. certainly not, and neither are all of you. But we share a common ally in Jesus Christ. It does us no good to denounce one another because of one sermon or one book you took out of context. That’s what the enemy wants. We cannot give in to hate, only love and faith.
A little leaven…………………!
I did some research on CS Lewis years ago, and like you, I found he was quite unorthodox. Yes, he was a brilliant writer and thinker, but he was not a biblical exegete. Some have said he was the greatest theologian of the 20th century. However, Lewis was much more of a philosopher than an expounder of scripture. The last straw came when I found out he was a blasphemer, because of some things he said about 3 years before his death, which is found in a biography of him done by Sayer.
Something to notice about C.S. Lewis and the Great Divorce, the “hell” of that story is a pre-last judgment place. When the Sun arises in that story, everything is over and the opportunity for the “vacationing” souls to repent is over. While it is not stated (because the story ends without returning to hell), things CHANGE in the “hell” of The Great Divorce, in keeping with Christian doctrine on the lake of fire in Revelation.
At around 21:00 you take issue with Keller saying it's a caricature to think that the lost plead for mercy as they are cast into hell. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but aren't you a Calvinist? As such, don't you believe that because of total depravity man would never turn to God and ask for mercy if God did not by grace change the man first? So that seems to be completely consistent with Keller saying that the unregenerate do not plead for mercy but are actively rejecting God even as they are punished.
One can ask for mercy without repenting.
Psalm 5:5 (NKJV)
5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.
There really isn’t a lot of scripture that can rightly be used to support the traditional doctrine of Hell. (EDIT: especially in regard to Eternal Conscious Torment) It seems that one of the larger sins of these heretics is challenging traditions that are loosely- if at all- founded on biblical truth. Truth is perfectly capable of handling questions and heretics, but there are so many comments regarding “the traditional view”.. who cares about a traditional view if it is not rightly established initially??! You keep saying orthodox and tradition as if this equates biblical truth.
Thanks again Jon.
just a comment regarding Keller taking away the written truth on hell…
that qualifies him to be a recipient of hell’s reality if he does not repent…
the warning in Revelation is clear….
not to add or subtract from the written word of GOD.
Also, Keller reminds me of satan in Genesis 3; he twists truth …. so his followers are believing in lies.
Jon, can you give specific names of those in the American Gospel film that are theologically incorrect? Thanks so much, and thanks for shedding light on this. Hank Hanegraaf has stated the exact same thing, but goes even further, saying that the sinner in hell believes it would be an even worse torment to be in heaven with the same God they denied and didn't want anything to do with on earth. Interesting....
Gutsy, criticisms of Lewis and Keller. I remember reading Lewis and feeling (not thinking) his view seemed forced and awkward. I am thinking you are correct now. My eyes have only been opened to these things with the present chaos and movements to open the jails, defund the police and Love everyone freely. So obviously NOT correct. Well done, preacher. I have to work it through my inner life now. Thank you.
Greed is a sin
I’m 68 years old- taught in seminary (RTS) at the feet of R.C. Sproul and J.I. Packer, etc.
NONE of that makes me “right” - so let me make that clear up front…
I too disagree with Lewis via Keller - hell is God’s doing- His just punishment and is to be avoided at all costs - it is as you observed nothing to be laughed at. But while pastoring a PCA church for years- I began to realize the deficiencies of my seminary education and started reading and pondering reflections on Scripture outside of the confines of “Orthodoxy” as narrowly confined to a “Reformed” perspective. I discovered, for instance, pre-Augustinian “fathers” who, unlike Augustine, actually understood Greek as their native tongue (e.g.Irenaeus and the Cappadocians). Their understanding of the Wrath of God (not ever divorced from “God is love”) seemed more robust in considering the breadth of what Scripture reveals about the true nature of God. (Why does Calvin in his Institutes never mention or quote 1John’s twice repeated “God is Love”? I don’t think this is coincidental…)
These fathers (along with the “early” Augustine) accepted as plain and at face value Paul’s words to pagan Athenians: “He is not far from any of us, for ‘in Him we live and move and have our being… for we are His offspring”. Calvin believed the image of God in which every human being is made was obliterated- but there is NO Biblical warrant for that. Then I discovered Westminster Divine Peter Sterry- a Calvinist who did not equivocate the nature of God as love. Dutch Calvinist Jan Bonda helped me read past Romans 9 on through Romans 11 in his The One Purpose of God. I commend you for your vigilance regarding Truth and its compromise- but I pray as Paul did for the Ephesians that you and I will have a greater revelation of the Love of Christ that surpasses all understanding ❤
Calvin endlessly writes of God's love. Love is not the issue. The Love cults of our day that have taken over the churches with their baby colored flags are well aware of this weakness & failure to believe something. Obviously a little more hell-a little more terror at finding one self in the hands of a LIVING God is needed. Not what you want to dwell on in a baby cult. Believing in God's love for everyone is worthless. It is obviously the song of the trickster, especially in our present crisis.
I saw American Gospel years ago as well and do not remember who was in it specifically; I just remember it striking a cord...who in it is "compromised"?
C S is great at apologetics, but some problems with theology. Evangelicals have been greatly influenced by Fuller theological Seminary amongst others, Rick Warren, NT Wright, Tim Keller and others. And as you've presented in other videos CRT, Wokism, LGBTQI+ agenda, SJ have invaded the evangelical church.
Great content. I will say though, that the whole God saying "Not my will, but thy will" thing is biblical (to a point). That's Romans 1:18-32. God does hand us over to our own vile self-destructive desires, as He removes all goodness from us. And that's depicted as not an eschatological wrath, but a wrath currently being revealed ( άποκαλύπτεται, present tense). Even MacArthur used that same quote from Lewis in his sermon on that passage. Obviously Keller psychologizes it into oblivion and mocks the standard eschatological orthodox view, but I don't think we should throw the biblical baby out with the bath water.
There is a video testimony of a man who converted from Judaism to become Messianic, and he wondered where the Tim Kelller of Judaism was. Keller is so suave, that the more liberal Christians like him. Keller waffled or skirted another hot topic on TV.
The penal substitutionary atonement is non-negotiable. So is the doctrine of propitiation as the basis for the atonement.
Whatever happened to Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God?
Tim Keller dodges a lot of very important issues. He’s seeker friendly bad and I feel it’s right to say he conformed more to the culture than to Jesus regarding truth.
Keller preaches the false doctrines of corporate sin and socio-cultural determinism yet teaches personal autonomy in his false doctrine of hell - it's hypocrisy! Good pick-up Jon.
You have a thumbnail of tim keller but then the video is you talking about yourself (?)
I have a family member who is heavily influenced by Keller and I can see the terrible outworking of bad theology
Wow when I first listen to this video, I was trying to figure out what possible group you would have with Tim Keller, and I realized by listening to it that some people are not able to understand Tim Keller theological approach to preaching. There are many mistakes in your quotes where you read something and then say your interpretation which is totally different then what Tim is saying. I suggest you listen to whole sermons for context or if you find him hard to understand then move on to a different kind of preaching. Some people take things to literal unfortunately. When he says that people choose he’ll, do they not choose the behavior that sends them to hell? God is always there, excepting us whenever we choose to turn to him if we choose not to turn to him, then we separate ourselves from him. He is also not talking about a literal hell on earth he is talking about, the consequences of our actions here on earth, not sure why that’s difficult to understand. If someone chooses a life of sin, do they not live through the consequences of that here, what is the issue with that statement ? 😂
We can say when one has a belief, the choice has been made. And if you don’t like that then it is the belief that determines heaven or hell for the believer. And if you don’t like that then think of it as sin, the only position man has ever known that sends him to hell. So what is it that changes that. We have to go back to belief again don’t we. The problem with this how we go to hell argument is about belief definition. Reformers are locked in to thinking sinners are guilty of sin but not guilty of belief
At 44:44 your criticism of Keller’s lack of acknowledgment that Hell as God’s active punishment is good, but the Bible does present hell as a place away from God’s manifest presence (2 Thess 1:9). The view that people would desire distance over God’s presence is understandable on the view that wickedness suffers more in the presence of holiness the closer it comes to it. The idea that people prefer less suffering doesn’t mean that they aren’t suffering punishment
This truth, and the idea that hell is chosen by people does reflect the importance of human volition. Human sin is the cause of God’s condemnation.
Self-condemnation is taught in the Gospel of John when he says, “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world…but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” John 3:17-18
So while Keller is missing an important element, these other elements are not obvious error.
At 42:52 you say Keller is mocking the biblical understanding of Hell. But he is not. He is referencing Hitchens caricature of God as sadistic. To laugh at a falsehood is not a bad thing.
You are not discerning the difference between what the text says about God’s righteous wrath versus how people today receive these words with our cultural background.
I think you missed it on this one.
Kinda sounds like Tim Mackie The Bible Project view on Hell.
Gahenna is not spoken of anywhere in scripture except by Jesus (one time by James) and refers to the Jerusalem dump, where the fire never goes out.Rich man and Lazarus is parable. Hell is nowhere in the OT, and not in Paul, who says that the wages of sin is death. John 3:16 says that those who believe will not perish. Does that mean that the lost won't really perish, but will wish they could? Augustine loved him some Plato, and that's where human immortality originated, not from scripture. The traditional view damages our credibility and dishonors the Lord.
I think there are men of higher education and having a superior intellect are naturally misunderstood by the average man. Do I believe Tim is a born again saint? Of course just as I do Lewis. However, all that said, sometimes when you delve into extremely heady stuff, you wander off the true path. We ALL do that to one extent or another. If there is any theologian on this earth to which you always and completely agree with, that only goes to show that you don't know how to think for yourselves. Everyone falls short. Everyone. Tim has gotten a lot of criticism over the last few years, and maybe properly so. But don't throw the baby out with the bath water. He has a LOT of great insights into the truths of scripture.
There are a LOT of theologians who as they get later in life, realizing the horror of the reality of eternal death/separation, emotionally can't handle the truth and therefor wander off into extra biblical explanations. i.e. annihilationism. Clark Pinnock and many others are good examples of this. "Hell Under Fire" is a great primer into the theological understanding of biblical teaching on hell.
Think about that word "cast"....😳 #fearGod
Yes, a strong word.
The issue many have with some religious people is that they think it's ok to mock beliefs and understandings of others, but then they think it's a big deal when others mock their beliefs. You say his congregation is laughing at the "biblical" understanding of hell. No, they are not. They are laughing at YOUR idea of hell. You get offended at that, but then you call his views stupid, lame and worth mocking. I personally think both of you are off on your understanding of hell, but I can appreciate that you are both TRYING to understand the bible. The church needs more humility, not mockery.
Why can’t it be both? God do judge people in the end base on what their choices in life. Since most people’s idea of hell is the fire pit God throw people in, but that doesn’t stop us from doing sin. So to me, both definitions of hell are true. We will all get judged by God but it’s also due to your choice in life rather you chose to believe Jesus and gave your life to him or not. (Since that’s the only way) i have to say tho, I agree with Keller with God never really want human to be in hell, that’s why Jesus, God himself had to come and chose to come. I don’t think you are wrong but I don’t think Keller was wrong either. Thank you for pointing out what you think it could be wrong. (No one will ever really know exactly until the day we die I guess 😅)
I think you are correct to criticize the absence of God as an active judge, hell is not just a self chosen punishment.
On the other hand, I don’t think Kelley’s example of the mischaracterization was inaccurate. In that characterization the person was crying out for mercy, but God is presented as someone who is taking pleasure in the suffering without regard for what is presented as sincere cries for mercy.
You treat this example as if is the same as those who are presenting their good works to Jesus, but they are turned away. But these are not the same at all.
In Jesus’ example, people were using good works to try and make up for their betrayal of their fellow Christians during times of persecution. Their arguments are not sincere repentance.
Similarly, in Kelley’s caricature the cry for mercy is understood today as a sincere repentance, but it’s a caricature because the cry for mercy is not rooted in repentance but what the Bible calls worldly sorrow. The sorrow over the consequence, not the cause. This is the deeper nature of sin that Keller talks about. And he is not wrong.
I think there are thinks to criticize, but be careful that you don’t critique everything just because there are some things to critique.
But thanks for the discernment, it’s important to test our teachers and ourselves by the Words of Christ.
The point in the Bible is there is a time to repent and a time when it is too late. That is being stated dramatically. What exactly hell will be is probably not communicable except with images of hell. I would not use the word "literal" myself because it is so loaded with the either-or distortions of the modernist cultural war.
Keller uses CS Lewis the same way he uses scripture. He knows people love and treasure Lewis, and while they love and treasure the Bible more, both are used in a twisted way to capture the minds of his audience by misrepresenting them. Keller is a deviant and an underminer. He doesn’t actually BELIEVE any of what he is saying. He doesn’t appreciate CS Lewis, but knows that many people- ready to be lead into error- do hold Lewis in high regard, and so he uses Lewis to deceive his audience.
So you know him personally?
How did he misrepresent Lewis's views on hell? Having read the Great Divorce myself, it seemed an accurate representation of his views to me.
Seems like there is a lot of certainty in your judgement…
Jon, I fear the false teacher may be you. When you said the word "Caricature" you didn't hit the "a" in the middle hard enough making it sound like a 3 syllable word instead of a 4 syllable word. I fear for your soul.
That small heresy aside, I greatly appreciate you putting this together. I'm exceedingly thankful to be a part of a local church grounded in scripture where keller's theology is rejected, however I have stumbled upon like minded believers that we associate with who don't seem to be aware of keller's less orthodox positions and still promote some of his material privately. How on earth does this guy evade the discernment of otherwise solid and orthodox believers?
I personally never latched onto him, as my first real encounter with him was listening to the 2012 veritas forum where he was asked what happens to people never exposed to the gospel and he essentially gave a long winded deep sounding version of Joel Olsteens reply to the same question, being "i don't know". My 7 year old son can answer that question more clearly and biblically than he did. The dude is a theological liberal, and conservatives give him a pass. boggles the mind.
I can't believe that I am about to defend Keller, but I think you are off the mark here. Both what Keller has said on this topic and what you said can be true at one time. Keller is perfectly within orthodoxy when he says that sinners CHOOSE hell. They are haters of God, they reject His revelation, both special and natural. As HATERS of God, they will not suddenly want to be with Him when in hell. They will simply hate Him even more when He justly judges them for their sin and places them in a place of torment. The only difference between the elect and the unregenerate hater is that God has taken the regenerate man's heart of stone and given him a heart of flesh. Therefore, the regenerate man chooses God because of what God has done through His electing love. The unregenerate man rejects God because of his naturally stony heart, and he willingly chooses death and hell in his sinful hatred. God then justly sends him to a place of torment where he can hate God more and more.
You normally have excellent thoughts, but I feel that you constructed a bit of a straw man within the podcast and then burnt it to the ground. I recommend that you do further research on this topic, and I would love to hear what you find. I appreciate your work even though we seem to disagree here. I wouldn't really recommend Keller on any topic, but I just happen to agree with BOTH you and he here.
I have removed Keller from my list of Christian authors to read. He is a liability.
I found Keller's book, "The Prodigal God" to be wishy washy. To me he tortured the parable and drew conclusions that really weren't in the passage. What really bothered me was the thinly veiled church bashing. On the one hand he says the older brother is as lost as the younger brother, but then he lectures the "older brothers" for not reaching out to the younger brothers with love. Which is it, is the older brother lost and in need of repentance like the younger brother, or is he an example of a believer who needs to orient himself to the concerns of the father? I see the same wishy washy, thinly veiled church bashing in the examples Jon is showing us.
@@nebraskafarmer9015 Agreed. Keller comes across as someone who has secret truth to share regarding the parable that hasn't been revealed. According to Keller, you think you know about the parable but you really don't until you accept Keller's specious version. He is very crafty but unbiblical in many instances I have found.
Free will? Sounds very Arminian at best. There is no one in hell who does not deserve to be there but how is that the same thing as choosing to be there?????
only asking, why God made man with a free will just to bring in hell if he does not obey the ten commandments!
Maybe man's free will is not absolute:
"What father holding his little girl’s hand crossing a busy street would ever let it go? The more she pulls, the tighter he squeezes. There is no way she is going anywhere! Is God any different? The argument that a person can choose hell by rejecting God as a result of 'free' will is in effect saying a little girl has more strength than her dad. God has given man a 'measure' of free will, but certainly not to the degree that He would allow him or her to damn themselves forever in torment. Is God less of a parent than we are (Matt. 7:11)? We extend increasing freedom to our children as they mature. Too much too soon is disastrous. He knows just how much freedom we need for our development."
-- Gerry Beauchemin, _Hope Beyond Hell,_ 2010, pg. 38
CS Lewis is not canon, so it's OK to disagree with him, and/or to see flaws in his surmises. In the Great Divorce he says that it's not a vision, but it's only a dream concocted for the purpose of discussing certain spiritual issues within a fictional framework.
You can't hold it against God for giving you what you want. God created a safe space for everyone that doesn't want Him around, where He promises to never go. It's not His fault if every where that God doesn't go sucks, and that people call the place "hell."
Hell is that place where God can't help
you when your worm dieth not, and your
fire is not quenched, because you told
him to go away and leave you alone.
If you say that God should make it so that hell doesn't suck, that's asking too much, because only the manifest presence and authority of God is able to make a place, any place, not suck. God has to be on site and
active in order to de-suck the environment.
And, besides, without God you can't escape
"hell" in any case because the kingdom of
hell is within you. Everywhere and anywhere
you go will be hell because you are what
makes hell. We all make our own hell, from out of the abundance of our hearts, that's
why we all need the Lord Jesus Christ to
save us, from our selves.
We are not sinners because we sin, we sin
because we are sinners.
You don't need to "follow" the Bible, you
need to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ,
accept Him as your Savior, then He works out
the rest.
Wow no longer a Keller fan, trust but verify b