"There's a ship on the bottom." And knowing that it's possible that fellow mariners - essentially they're all coworkers - could be rescued he probably felt a small amount of duty as well. Despite his misgivings, despite the danger, despite that "there could be ships on the bottom if i go back out there"....he went.
@@TheMainLead She was. However, she was going in for a major lengthening of her hull and re-working of her problematic keel, including the adding of solid structural bulkheads instead of those useless screen “walls” (you really can’t even honestly call them bulkheads). The reason she sank was because they raised the Load Line THREE TIMES. That put her 4,000 tons heavier than she was designed for. She only had 11.5 feet of freeboard WITHOUT the water coming in. No one knows for sure how she sank but that’s why she sank. “The owners, Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company, actually got the U.S. Coast Guard to increase the load line for the Edmund Fitzgerald three times - in 1969, 1971, and 1973 - allowing her to carry 4,000 tons more than she was originally designed&intended for. These changes allowed for 3 feet, 3.25 inches less minimum freeboard overall. Because of that, the ship’s deck was only 11.5 feet above water when loaded and she was considerably overweight, according to her original intended specifications. This made the ship especially sluggish and slower to recover and decreased her buoyancy when facing the waves on that fateful November 10th. She was already riding too low once she started taking on water. The Skipper had already said that she was never the same after that- if she fell off in a heavy head sea they would sometimes have to make a complete 360 to get back on course. She’d just wallow in the troughs between the waves and then the waves would keep pushing her off from recovering her heading. “Prior to the load-line increases she was said to be a ‘good riding ship’ but afterwards, the Edmund Fitzgerald became a sluggish ship with slower response&recovery times. Captain McSorley said he did not like the action of a ship he described as a ‘wiggling thing’ that scared him. After those changes, the Edmund Fitzgerald's bow hooked to one side or the other in heavy seas without recovering and made a groaning sound not heard on other ships.” She could still be running today but the owners at that time did not manage her as well as the owners of the Anderson. The Fitz,the Morrell and the Bradley all went down because of greed-induced maintenance issues. None of them should have been running at all at their point of destruction- let alone into known catastrophic weather conditions.
@@David-lx4yb I’m going to say more than likely not. The Fitz was abused. Having the heaviest load isn’t always a good thing. She was supposed to have her hull reinforced (again) but she of course didn’t make it. The steal that was supposed to be used for her hull refit was still piled up on the dock as recently as 2013 but that was 9 years ago.
Boy you have to give Capt Cooper a lot of credit for having the sack to go back out in those conditions. I was a lineman my whole work life and climbing poles in ice and snow is the most scared I ever was thinking you were gonna ride that pole right to the ground. I can’t imagine the scared that those brave men experienced during that episode. God bless the men that go out on those ships on the Great Lakes and the sea.
R.I.P. Big Fitz and her brave 29-man crew. ~ "Does anyone know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the minutes to hours?" - Gordon Lightfoot.
I have always remembered the Edmund Fitzgerald because of Gordon Lightfoot’s song and it came out when I was young. A couple of years ago I gave some music books to a man near where I live and he was the brother of one of the crew. He told me about his brother. Rest in Peace to the crew. Captain Cooper, what a brave man.
I was 15 in 1975 when I read of the sinking in our local newspaper, Gordon's song created the huge popularity of the ship, without his song, it would've been a small story lost to time.
I wasn't born yet... but I was raised on the iron range. My great uncle ran split Rock lighthouse for MANY years. I grew up listening to AM gold and loved gordan lightfoot... this song always haunted me. I asked my mom about the meaning of the song when I was about 7 (46 now) and she told me. This song still haunts me and I sit with tears in my eyes everytime I hear it. Rest in peace brave men. You are NOT forgotten.
I’m 63 and was in awe when I heard that a ship of that size could be lost on Lake Superior. Years later I was told from a sailing instructor that if you can sail on Lake Superior, you can sail anywhere. I’m still in awe of that statement.
Of all the theories, I believe Captain Cooper's. He was there that night; he was right behind her, following behind, caught in the same storm. He had the last communication with The Fitz. Sure, he may not know what *exactly* happened to her, but again, *he was there*. One minute, he saw her on radar, and when he next checked, she was gone, in the literal blink of an eye. And when he reached Whitefish, he agreed to go back out, knowing full well that he could very well join The Fitz and her crew at the bottom of the lake, but he went out anyway, because it was the right thing to do, and he hoped that maybe they could find her and her crew. I can't imagine the guilt he and his crew most likely lived with after losing The Fitz, especially because it could very easily have been the Anderson instead. I really think it was a perfect storm (no pun intended) coupled with a stroke of bad luck that The Fitz was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Mcsorely and Cooper really put the Coast Guard on the spot. They were warned with everyone else on the lake to seek safe harbor. What's the CG supposed to do - get a 41 footer underway in 35 foot seas because two knucklehead heavy weather skippers rolled the dice?
@@jeffmilroy9345 There were plenty of heavy weather skippers back then. They were celebrated and rewarded by the company. They didn't think about hazarding their boat and crew. More trips meant bonuses. Like Cooper said in a later interview, he thought his ship was practically indestructable. Different time.
This incident and this song still send shivers up my spine. The Anderson is still in service on Superior. You can see her up close entering and leaving the Duluth Harbor under the beautiful Arial Lift Bridge. She is a sister ship to the Edmund Fitzgerald and still beautiful!
I was in the coast guard for 12 years. I have never seen such sad stupidity as what I witnessed from "professional sailors" on the great lakes. I kindly suggest you read the true account of the blizzard of 78 "Ten Hours Before Dawn".
Tell you what - I have crewed on a CG 41' patrol boat in 21' seas doing multiple rescue sorties at full throttle. If you can convince a coxswain to go - and have the stones to ride a 41' boat outside the breakwall with 35' seas roaring then I will be your boat engineer. But just a word - maybe read the true story account of the CG duty during the blizzard of 78 before you sign on to that duty. The book title is Ten Hours Until Dawn.
a young high school kid i hung out with lost his father on the fitzgerald. he was from toledo ohio. i wish i had a dollar for everytime i heard lightfoot sing that ballad.
There was no coast guard ships working within 300 miles that could make it there to them. The only ship that had any idea / was close one was the Arthur M Anderson. It was the only option, thats why he asked and didn't command. The coast guard couldn't command them to do anything but he can sure ask. Caption Bernie Cooper is a hero, wither he was able to save anyone or not just turning around in that storm makes him + crew a hero, or at the very least a man with gigantic balls
If I could go back in time I would love to go back to November 10 1975 and warn The big Fitz to wait a few days. It was her last run for the winter a few days wouldn't have hurt. Things happen for a reason it was there time I guess 😢😢
I can imagine as well ships are built the stresses the hulls on lenghty ships endure in big seas is emmense. When two waves are timed so ones at the bow the other at stern the center cant help but sag with weight of cargo. Then a large wave at center causes bow and stern stress. Years of this along with twisting and yawing takes a toll on every ship.
Got a question about the video...the first few minutes show a freighter in a storm with water going over the deck. Does anyone know what ship this was taken from, the source of the video?
Ok im very confused. At 0:44 mark you see the ship with the name Edmund Fitzgerald but if you pay closer attention the smoke stack is completely different to the one the Fitz had and it also seems to be sporting the Algoma Central colors on her stack even though algoma is a Canadian company. but the name Edmund Fitzgerald is painted in the side. Does anyone have any additional information on that? It just seems kind of odd.
I don’t know for certain, but could it have been an original short lived paint scheme and funnel? I’m almost certain it’s not but there’s a possibility that it is.
That was the V. W. Scully masquerading as the Edmund Fitzgerald in 1977 for a movie about it, starring Sean Connery as captain McSorely but it got scrapped before it had the chance to air.
If she had bottomed out, the captain would’ve known that immediately and he would’ve mentioned that on the radio which he didn’t. Also, grounding would’ve allowed so much additional water in that she would’ve sank much sooner than she did. A stress fracture, and or a large object, breaking free on the deck and damaging the vent covers. Seems like the most probable cause of the initial damage. Later, With a little or no freeboard, the large quartering waves pushed her under.
The key and important thing is that the two boats had decided to ship together for safety. The failure was abandoning the life ring. Cooper was the only chance and life ring to the Fitz once it was damaged; taking on water; and, developed its bad starboard list. A 700 plus foot ore boat does not take a bad starboard list for no reason. Mcsorely knew his boat was due for hull repairs and now in peril of sinking and relied entirely on its buddy vessel. The Fitz was blind and desperately needed to know about conditions like the rogue waves Cooper had just experienced. Had this critical info been passed by radio it is possible a lifeboat could have been prepped for quick release and/or launched in tow behind or alongside. Escape gangways needed to be opened. Sailors from the Fitz had a slim chance of getting free from the doomed boat and making an escape. It was similar with the Titanic - critical information about ice pack type dangers / bad sea conditions must be passed and is the responsibility of all.
I believe it was both. Captain Cooper said the snow squalls made it difficult to keep an eye on him visually, and then when the sea return started to get bad, it made it almost impossible to see any ship on radar.
I personally know of the cost guard request commercial fishing vessels to search for a sinking vessel in the Gulf of Mexico... 40 ft boats in 15-20 ft seas.. before they get motivated 😡😡
Clearly the weight had shifted, either from water coming in or the load had shifted from the super rough waters or both. Perhaps she had started to split then and the couldn't see it in the blinding snow. No one will know.
Yep, I read somewhere that a crewman who had previously served on the Fitzgerald said that after the ship was lengthened it would flex so much in heavy seas that the paint would pop off of bulkheads. That night it broke.
I'm surprised the Anderson stayed afloat with the Weight of Captain Coopers Balls onboard..
They don’t make men like Captain Cooper anymore.
Just one in a billion now
Few were braver
God bless all I was my captain s first mate on lake Michigan lot of time 61ft swales
"There's a ship on the bottom." And knowing that it's possible that fellow mariners - essentially they're all coworkers - could be rescued he probably felt a small amount of duty as well. Despite his misgivings, despite the danger, despite that "there could be ships on the bottom if i go back out there"....he went.
Reminds me of my Grandpa, who was a trucker in the same era. I miss people of that generation.
The ship Arthur Anderson is still sailing the Great Lakes.
The Fitz almost assuredly would still be working the lakes if this tragedy had not happened.
@@David-lx4ybno she was rode hard and put up wet. Look at the michi
@@TheMainLead
She was.
However,
she was going in for a major lengthening of her hull and re-working of her problematic keel,
including the adding of solid structural bulkheads instead of those useless screen “walls”
(you really can’t even honestly call them bulkheads).
The reason she sank was because they raised the
Load Line THREE TIMES.
That put her 4,000 tons heavier than she was designed for.
She only had 11.5 feet of freeboard WITHOUT the water coming in.
No one knows for sure how she sank but that’s why she sank.
“The owners,
Northwestern Mutual
Life Insurance Company,
actually got the U.S. Coast Guard
to increase the load line for the Edmund Fitzgerald three times -
in 1969, 1971, and 1973 -
allowing her to carry 4,000 tons more than she was originally designed&intended for.
These changes allowed for
3 feet, 3.25 inches less
minimum freeboard overall.
Because of that,
the ship’s deck was only 11.5 feet above water when loaded and she was considerably overweight,
according to her original intended specifications.
This made the ship especially sluggish and slower to recover and decreased her buoyancy
when facing the waves
on that fateful November 10th.
She was already riding too low once she started taking on water.
The Skipper had already said that she was never the same after that-
if she fell off in a heavy head sea they would sometimes have to make a complete 360 to get back on course.
She’d just wallow in the troughs between the waves and then the waves would keep pushing her off from recovering her heading.
“Prior to the load-line increases
she was said to be a
‘good riding ship’
but afterwards,
the Edmund Fitzgerald became
a sluggish ship with
slower response&recovery times.
Captain McSorley said he did not like the action of a ship he described as a ‘wiggling thing’
that scared him.
After those changes,
the Edmund Fitzgerald's bow hooked to one side or the other in heavy seas without recovering
and made a groaning sound not heard on other ships.”
She could still be running today but the owners at that time did not manage her as well as the owners of the Anderson.
The Fitz,the Morrell and the Bradley all went down because of
greed-induced maintenance issues.
None of them should have been running at all at their point of destruction-
let alone into known catastrophic weather conditions.
@@David-lx4yb I’m going to say more than likely not. The Fitz was abused. Having the heaviest load isn’t always a good thing. She was supposed to have her hull reinforced (again) but she of course didn’t make it. The steal that was supposed to be used for her hull refit was still piled up on the dock as recently as 2013 but that was 9 years ago.
Boy you have to give Capt Cooper a lot of credit for having the sack to go back out in those conditions. I was a lineman my whole work life and climbing poles in ice and snow is the most scared I ever was thinking you were gonna ride that pole right to the ground. I can’t imagine the scared that those brave men experienced during that episode. God bless the men that go out on those ships on the Great Lakes and the sea.
He put his ship , crew and himself at risk of the same. I understand him thinking if it was their ship he would hope someone would do likewise.
RIP Captain Jesse Bernard “Bernie” Cooper
Born 24 October 1919 Died 4 April 1993 Age 73
A man among men.
May he Rest In Peace!
R.I.P. Big Fitz and her brave 29-man crew. ~ "Does anyone know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the minutes to hours?" - Gordon Lightfoot.
I have always remembered the Edmund Fitzgerald because of Gordon Lightfoot’s song and it came out when I was young. A couple of years ago I gave some music books to a man near where I live and he was the brother of one of the crew. He told me about his brother. Rest in Peace to the crew. Captain Cooper, what a brave man.
I was 15 in 1975 when I read of the sinking in our local newspaper, Gordon's song created the huge popularity of the ship, without his song, it would've been a small story lost to time.
Captain Cooper had more guts than I could ever hope to have.
I wasn't born yet... but I was raised on the iron range. My great uncle ran split Rock lighthouse for MANY years. I grew up listening to AM gold and loved gordan lightfoot... this song always haunted me. I asked my mom about the meaning of the song when I was about 7 (46 now) and she told me. This song still haunts me and I sit with tears in my eyes everytime I hear it. Rest in peace brave men. You are NOT forgotten.
I’m 63 and was in awe when I heard that a ship of that size could be lost on Lake Superior. Years later I was told from a sailing instructor that if you can sail on Lake Superior, you can sail anywhere. I’m still in awe of that statement.
Of all the theories, I believe Captain Cooper's. He was there that night; he was right behind her, following behind, caught in the same storm. He had the last communication with The Fitz. Sure, he may not know what *exactly* happened to her, but again, *he was there*. One minute, he saw her on radar, and when he next checked, she was gone, in the literal blink of an eye. And when he reached Whitefish, he agreed to go back out, knowing full well that he could very well join The Fitz and her crew at the bottom of the lake, but he went out anyway, because it was the right thing to do, and he hoped that maybe they could find her and her crew. I can't imagine the guilt he and his crew most likely lived with after losing The Fitz, especially because it could very easily have been the Anderson instead. I really think it was a perfect storm (no pun intended) coupled with a stroke of bad luck that The Fitz was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Agreed. :(
Heard that generous nice guy Gordan Lightfoot donated all of the money he made from this great song to families of the Edmund Fitzgerald.
Coast guard really put Cooper on the spot.
I'm no expert, but I think the last thing the coast guard should be doing is telling vessels to go back into a historic storm.
Yeah, thats not something they would tell ships in todays day in age. That could have easily resulted in 2 ships under water. @@Rycearony5374
Mcsorely and Cooper really put the Coast Guard on the spot. They were warned with everyone else on the lake to seek safe harbor. What's the CG supposed to do - get a 41 footer underway in 35 foot seas because two knucklehead heavy weather skippers rolled the dice?
@@jeffmilroy9345 There were plenty of heavy weather skippers back then. They were celebrated and rewarded by the company. They didn't think about hazarding their boat and crew. More trips meant bonuses. Like Cooper said in a later interview, he thought his ship was practically indestructable.
Different time.
@@ianross806 Then Cooper should not have been concerned about a joy ride like that. He wasnt going anywhere - the locks were closed.
This incident and this song still send shivers up my spine. The Anderson is still in service on Superior. You can see her up close entering and leaving the Duluth Harbor under the beautiful Arial Lift Bridge. She is a sister ship to the Edmund Fitzgerald and still beautiful!
That's a man's man right there
Great job Captain Cooper. You did your best, honatably.
Except for failing to warn the Fitz that the rogue waves were coming. All he had to do was pick up the mike.
It's funny how the "old shoe" part of Cooper's quote is always left out. I think it adds to they story.
Rip Edmund Fitzgerald crew.
‘She was hurt’. Every time I hear that, I cry.
The comment was made I have seas coming over my deck and the coast-guard didn't even register the meaning of the statement. How sad....
I was in the coast guard for 12 years. I have never seen such sad stupidity as what I witnessed from "professional sailors" on the great lakes. I kindly suggest you read the true account of the blizzard of 78 "Ten Hours Before Dawn".
@@jeffmilroy9345 thank you sir
Capt Cooper most definitely has a big pair of ⚽️⚽️ to have gone back out there to search for The Fitz when the coast guard wouldn't.
Tell you what - I have crewed on a CG 41' patrol boat in 21' seas doing multiple rescue sorties at full throttle. If you can convince a coxswain to go - and have the stones to ride a 41' boat outside the breakwall with 35' seas roaring then I will be your boat engineer. But just a word - maybe read the true story account of the CG duty during the blizzard of 78 before you sign on to that duty. The book title is Ten Hours Until Dawn.
Not a sailor but much respect for you men
And The Legend Lives On⚓
a young high school kid i hung out with lost his father on the fitzgerald. he was from toledo ohio. i wish i had a dollar for everytime i heard lightfoot sing that ballad.
Gordon Lightfoot gave the monetary rights to that song to the surviving families. Lightfoot is a hero in his own right.
Sad part about all that communication is, the crew was all dead already , RIP to all the crew ,just devastating!
I'll never forget that day
49 years. God bless these men and all who sail on the sea.
the church now rings 29 + 1 for Gordon Lightfoot
Captain cooper Forgot more about those ships than anyone can ever learn so he very well could have been right
They lost one vessel and the Coast Guard wants him to go out to look in rough seas. Jeez. 🙄
Why did he call the coast guard?
There was no coast guard ships working within 300 miles that could make it there to them. The only ship that had any idea / was close one was the Arthur M Anderson. It was the only option, thats why he asked and didn't command. The coast guard couldn't command them to do anything but he can sure ask. Caption Bernie Cooper is a hero, wither he was able to save anyone or not just turning around in that storm makes him + crew a hero, or at the very least a man with gigantic balls
They are asking ships in the area to look. It's also basic maritime decorum to help any vessal in distress if you are nearby
If I could go back in time I would love to go back to November 10 1975 and warn The big Fitz to wait a few days. It was her last run for the winter a few days wouldn't have hurt. Things happen for a reason it was there time I guess 😢😢
Arthur M. Anderson gives master salute to the Edmund Fitzgerald:
ruclips.net/video/ZDA8nF02Xy0/видео.html&ab_channel=DuluthHarborCam
I can imagine as well ships are built the stresses the hulls on lenghty ships endure in big seas is emmense. When two waves are timed so ones at the bow the other at stern the center cant help but sag with weight of cargo. Then a large wave at center causes bow and stern stress. Years of this along with twisting and yawing takes a toll on every ship.
My first thought upon seeing the title was that salvagers had poached the wreckage off the lakebed...
Got a question about the video...the first few minutes show a freighter in a storm with water going over the deck. Does anyone know what ship this was taken from, the source of the video?
If I am understanding correctly, the 3 upbound ships passed within 1-3 miles of the Fitz around the time she disappeared from Radar.
Nothing feels as good as a pair of "old shoes". But believe me...I have had multiple pairs of "old shoes" blow out on me...😮😮!!
Their is nothing - NOTHING- more dangerous- than when mother nature is angry.
Ok im very confused. At 0:44 mark you see the ship with the name Edmund Fitzgerald but if you pay closer attention the smoke stack is completely different to the one the Fitz had and it also seems to be sporting the Algoma Central colors on her stack even though algoma is a Canadian company. but the name Edmund Fitzgerald is painted in the side. Does anyone have any additional information on that? It just seems kind of odd.
Good catch
I don’t know for certain, but could it have been an original short lived paint scheme and funnel? I’m almost certain it’s not but there’s a possibility that it is.
That was the V. W. Scully masquerading as the Edmund Fitzgerald in 1977 for a movie about it, starring Sean Connery as captain McSorely but it got scrapped before it had the chance to air.
@@bluerazor7049 thanks! I appreciate the info.
@@bluerazor7049damn. I'd watch that!
If she had bottomed out, the captain would’ve known that immediately and he would’ve mentioned that on the radio which he didn’t. Also, grounding would’ve allowed so much additional water in that she would’ve sank much sooner than she did. A stress fracture, and or a large object, breaking free on the deck and damaging the vent covers. Seems like the most probable cause of the initial damage. Later, With a little or no freeboard, the large quartering waves pushed her under.
The key and important thing is that the two boats had decided to ship together for safety. The failure was abandoning the life ring. Cooper was the only chance and life ring to the Fitz once it was damaged; taking on water; and, developed its bad starboard list. A 700 plus foot ore boat does not take a bad starboard list for no reason. Mcsorely knew his boat was due for hull repairs and now in peril of sinking and relied entirely on its buddy vessel. The Fitz was blind and desperately needed to know about conditions like the rogue waves Cooper had just experienced. Had this critical info been passed by radio it is possible a lifeboat could have been prepped for quick release and/or launched in tow behind or alongside. Escape gangways needed to be opened. Sailors from the Fitz had a slim chance of getting free from the doomed boat and making an escape. It was similar with the Titanic - critical information about ice pack type dangers / bad sea conditions must be passed and is the responsibility of all.
😞❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️29 dear souls
Everyone says his lights disappeared. I thought he disappeared off radar. Which was it?
I believe it was both. Captain Cooper said the snow squalls made it difficult to keep an eye on him visually, and then when the sea return started to get bad, it made it almost impossible to see any ship on radar.
Snow squall , when it lifted she could not be picked up on radar
Crewmate Bruce Hudsons 1974 Dodge Charger is in possession of man who has kept it in original condition. Hudsons Zippo lighter was found inside.
I agree with captain Cooper
i love it
I personally know of the cost guard request commercial fishing vessels to search for a sinking vessel in the Gulf of Mexico... 40 ft boats in 15-20 ft seas.. before they get motivated 😡😡
The fitz was listing before it got to Caribou Island so they’re running a ground theory isn’t accurate
Clearly the weight had shifted, either from water coming in or the load had shifted from the super rough waters or both. Perhaps she had started to split then and the couldn't see it in the blinding snow. No one will know.
They (business men) were willing to wreck two ships that night.
😢
You mean the skippers? They made the call to get under-weigh.
Ships are vanishing. Can you go back out and check?
It broke in half on top of the water!
Why no distress call
@@TheMainLead The antenna was under water?
@@TheMainLeadno time.
Yep, I read somewhere that a crewman who had previously served on the Fitzgerald said that after the ship was lengthened it would flex so much in heavy seas that the paint would pop off of bulkheads. That night it broke.