Choosing to remove a video after community feedback and undertake a comprehensive re-make is a serious integrity move. Few RUclipsrs hold themselves to that high a standard. Thanks for your diligence and superior content.
I agree. This sinking is a touchy subject for many in the Great Lakes region at least Michigan. We all grow up learning about it. I think he gave mention towards the end about how all the parties don't want the blame placed on them. Touchy might not be the right wording but people have strong feelings still about it.
@@robert48044 I'm from superior, the town the Edmund left from. My daughter is 12 and has already learned all about the Edmund Fitzgerald. I wonder if it will ever stop being taught about.
I come from a long line of commercial fishermen .I grew up on the Oregon coast and learned about this ship.as a kid in the 80's I just taught my youngest daughter about the Fits .I recently moved to Pittsburgh and am immersing my self in everything maritime greatlakes. I believe it will be taught for years
My grandfather sailed the lakes for 14 years, including on the Fitzgerald from 70 to 74. My Aunt was born in 72, Mom was born in 74, so he took a job in the shipyards so he wasn't gone most of the year. Had alot of stories to tell about the lakes, many of them pretty terrifying. He said the waves used to come onto ship on the rear, ride the length of the deck, and plow into the pilot house. He always subscribed to the theory that the Fitz nose dived, hit the bottom, and then twisted in half. He knew most of the men on the Fitz that went down that night. Grandma said it was a pretty rough ordeal for him, on many levels.
I have followed this for years. It’s been kind of an obsession actually. My theory of what happened is my own and not necessarily the view of everyone else. Nor does it mean that’s what happened. But this is my thoughts in short version. She was steaming along in the storm just fine until they lost both radars. Whilst in contact with the Anderson I believe she was closer to the 6 fathom shoal than they realised. Fully loaded and low in the water. I believe she struck bottom with quite a force and she hogged. Thus snapping the deck fence and fractured the hull. The sudden rushing in of the water blew the vent caps off. So from there on she was sinking. And to develop a list so quickly fits the theory. The crew manned the pumps but unfortunately couldn’t keep up with the incoming water. She continued through the storm for another 3 or 4 hours until she was so low in the water, that the waves rolling up her deck pushed her bow down so far that it couldn’t recover. So here’s the next part of my theory. As she went down, and this part I believe happened very very quickly, she nose dived into the bottom, and the damage to the forward part of the ship supports this theory.so as the bow digs in to the bottom the prop still turning torque twisted her over, I believe she broke at the fracture point where she hit the shoal, and the 200 foot mid section disintegrated. By this time the stern is inverted and sank like a stone . Trapping most of the crew in the accommodation area. They had no chance of escape. I believe the actual sinking was extremely quick and almost instant. R.I.P to the 29 on board. May you all rest in eternal peace.
@johnkirby8849 I had similar theory. I think the bow went under a wave and never able to recover and the engine drove her to the bottom. The part that doesn't fit the theory from everything I could find, divers couldn't find any scrape marks on the shoal. I was 10 years old at the time! I have always been fascinated with the Fitz sinking.
good friend of mines grand father was suposed to be sailing on the fitz,,and he decided to stay home this trip to do some work at home. lucky guy,,and lucky for my friend or she would never have been born. she said he was reallly freaked out about it for the rest of his life.
I'm no expert. But looking at the wreckage, I agree with your grandfather. Sure looks like she went down in one piece and then broke with the hard impact. The two parts of the ship are fairly close together. If she had split on the surface, the parts would likely not be so close together. It is the old adage called "Ocaam's Razor." The most obvious explanation is most often the correct one.
To say: " okay I get your point of view, I'll take your comments on board and re do this video" marks you out as someone to watch further. I don't subscribe often, but your humility and teachability commend you . To be able to look at a situation from multiple angles and adapt your point of view is a mark of maturity.
I worked at a medical supply store in Brainerd with someone from Castle Danger near Two Harbors. He said his brother sailed on the Fitz around 1973 and after a short time, “Couldn’t wait to get off that death trap.” The ship had had problems with hogging from what I’ve read. I also believe it’s a combination of things as not one of the theories by themselves explain everything.
I'm no mariner, but I have to agree that it was likely a combination of all these theories. Frankly, I've never heard about the keel issues before and given the conditions, how can anyone NOT move that near the top of the list?
it was in bad shape..the keel was indeed detached and was scheduled for a repair and refit after this voyage. They had special plates made up to shim and attach it
I’m in a suburb of Detroit, Michigan. I am born and raised here. As a young nurse specializing in Radiation Oncology, I took care of a ship captain. He told me the Great Lakes are very dangerous and explained why, taking a glass of water and swirling it around saying the huge waves have no place to go except crashing into each other, or on top of you. He told me once he saw a ship pealed back like a can of tuna. I was mesmerized by this Captain, and knew I was in the presence of a special man…..he had prostate cancer, but did well….he was so interesting to talk too….
I’ve read all the books over and over, watched shows repeatedly and now this one on replay. This redo very well done. I know I owe you a subscription and need to get to that.
The Great Lakes Shipwreck Museum located at Michigan's Whitefish Point Light-Station is a must see for anyone interested in the loss of the Edmund Fitzgerald or any of the other hundreds of ships lost along the Lake Superior Shipwreck Coast. My wife and I finally made it to the museum last year and were deeply moved by the displays there, especially of the Edmund Fitzgerald's ship's bell. It was a both gratifying and poignant visit there. Gratifying in that as a young man I got to meet Phil Nuytten, the inventor of the "Newtsuit" several times and actually listened to him ponder on the idea of a hard shell exo diving suit before he finally invented it in 1979. His Newtsuit was used to explore the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. Poignant in that there is an observation platform from which, if the weather had allowed the lights of the Edmund Fitzgerald would have been visible from Whitefish Point just before it sank.
As a Michigander, Lake Superior is no joke. Of all the Great Lakes, it's pretty well established Superior is the scariest, and when you visit, you can get a sense of why. I live in a bay off Lake Michigan, and even on shore, there are times where it reminds you it can get scary. And with the amount of land the wind covers, it has a lot of time to cool down before hitting you in the face, going from Great Lake to Bering Strait in minutes.
I think it's brilliant that this guy has read people's comments, looked into it further and floated other theories. Responding to the comments is a great thing to do!
It's interesting. No matter how much I research, the collective knowledge of this audience is incredible. I always learn more about an incident after I post a video from the comments.
To think, I almost didn't click into this . . . "another one on the Fitzgerald!!! It's probably one I've already watched . . . " BUT you had me hooked with that first line & you did not disappoint !!! AWESOME & BRILLIANTLY CONSIDERATE!
@@waterlinestoriesalthough an inordinate amount of planes and boats disappear in the Bermuda triangle the Great lakes are known as the shipping graveyard
It is floating proof of the term "They don't make em' like they used too". Sadly ALOT of that eras ships had some or ALOT of bad, brittle steel that took far too many.
I grew up in Toledo Ohio and my dad was a shipkeeper for ASC. It amazes me that so many more of these freighters haven’t gone down. Every winter they come into Toledo and lay up for the winter and most if not all of them would have to have the bottoms welded back together as they’d constantly split. Instead of retiring these old freighters they just continue welding them. I’ve heard atleast 3 captains and chiefs say that the company would rather pay out a wrongful death suit than to replace the ship because it was cheaper. But man did I love staying up on these big boats throughout the winter and summers when they’d be layed up throughout the year. Nothing more relaxing than throwing a mattress down on the floor of the pilot house, crank the ac, and listen to the radio traffic and watch the thunderstorms. 🌩️ I really miss it though.
Climbing up on them and jumping off before the cops could catch you was so much fun when I was growing up in Ontario. The Sir James Dunn was retired in my hometown and my friends could often be found "down at the Dunn".
I am a Great Lakes Sailor. Weather can turn a calm lake, into a washing machine. The Fitz actually had a double bottom. They filled the bottom with water when empty to make it ride smoother. When loaded, it's empty. If they hit the schoal, it could have filled the bottom. That would have allowed them to keep going with the pumps running. The "3 sisters" hit the first one, followed closely by the 2nd and 3rd. It's brutal!
I've been out on Lake Ontario, a calm lake compared to Superior, many times and it can get rough. We call them lakes but they're really inland seas with most of the same effects a sea experiences.
@@DIRTYBILL1994 I solo sail a 34 foot sailboat! Been a Great Lakes sailor, since 1982. I soloed a 41 footer when I was 13, from Muskegon to Chicago. Don't think anyone would allow that now a days!
I believe you. As once they encountered the three sisters. It was all over for them. It broke the ship in half and sank so fast. Not even a call went out. They never had time to send one..
Whatever theory or combined theories that would explain how the Edmund Fitzgerald sank so quickly is probably correct. I think of Captain McSorely (sp?) being on the bridge of the Edmund Fitzgerald in that dire situation. He had to be very close to a radio or phone. However, he didn't even have a chance to say that his ship was sinking. That's how fast it happened. That's telltale in and of itself. Could it be that one or both of those 30'-35' waves that Captain Cooper of the Anderson reported somehow caused the bow of the Edmund Fitzgerald to dip below the surface of the water and then pointing downward she just keep right on going to the bottom as if it was swallowed by the heavy seas? That combined with the fact that she was listing and had already taken in a lot of water makes sense to me as to why the Edmund Fitzgerald not only sank but did so very suddenly and rapidly. Great video! Very no-nonsense, clear and to the point!
I agree. It had to have happened so fast. He was an experienced enough captain that he would have known when to called mayday. I believe a rouge huge wave broke them deep and it snapped in two, and sunk so quick, they wouldn’t have had time to call for help.
He was taking water and in that storm he was getting lower and lower giving the impression that seas were increasing. When the end came it was very fast. Literally the blink of an eye.
I think the combination of the 2 sisters did it. Cooper said he guessed the timing matched up. Not to mention those waves would have gotten worse the closer they got to shore. If the waves were spaced right the first could have been pushing the pilot house down while the second was lifting the stern. The open bridge door has me curious if someone could have gotten out? Hard to imagine after the wild ride down and being in pitch black. More believable that the smash into the bottom forced the door open? I dont know.
@@diachilders3271 I absolutely agree with the "rogue wave theory". Further to that, there is a video on RUclips that tests the theory out. Respected diver Mike Fletcher and his son Warren explore the theory, and in my opinion, offer the most likely situation that a rogue wave took her out. Coupled with the fact that she was thousands of tonnes over the recommended weight. "Dive Detectives - Edmund Fitzgerald" is very much worth the watch.
Ever since I found this Channel about 6 months ago I absolutely adore watching all of the videos and catching up on all the other videos. As much as I want to I simply cannot watch this video. My parents had just gotten married and he sailed on the lakes for a job. I can tell you she was so scared because at that time they didn't know who had gone down. My dad sailed the Munson that year but he knew every man on board the Fitz. I've heard the stories from him over the years and the last words anyone ever heard from them "We're holding our own" has always been gut wrenching. One thing I can say is the chief mate would NEVER have sailed unless everyone single hatch was dogged securely. He was well known for that on every trip not just the last one. I have no doubt that he double checked every one of those hatches especially because they knew what weather they had. All the years my dad sailed I hated Novembers the most. November Witches are no joke and I was worried every time. I wish I could watch this episode but I just can't. It's just too close to home. Even now that my dad retired it's still hard. I just know all about the Fitz and hate to have reminders even all these years later. I am looking forward to next video though.
Pandora, bless your heart ! ! ! I have seen all of his videos, especially these on the Fitzgerald & if you could watch any of them, this would be the one . . . he is very carefully considerate about every detail of collected & accumulated information that he presents in a very gracious manner!!! I'm delighted you got to have your dad with you to raise you - a tribute to your dad in memory of those who weren't there to raise their kids. God bless your parents!!!
" too close to home. " there are experiences we accumulate in life that we learn never to revisit . definitely part of the human condition. you can start out as brave as you want to be but as the years accumulate you learn there are things greater and more terrible than you.
My grandfather was on the Anderson that night! As he told me the fitz was picked up from the stern by the first wave of the three sister's and was driven into the lake bed!! The subsequent 2 other waves swamped the rest of the ship and the bow never came out of the first wave, cheers
That is exactly what my late father told me he suspected the cause of the sinking to be. It's never been a popular theory, But I've always thought it might be the correct one.
@@Roadrunner4447 well the ship is split in two and half of it is upside down. …and in a larger sense, every last ounce is at the bottom of the lake somewhere
He played at the Port McNicol Inn several times but I was too young to get in. "I'm going to play you a song in the key of Bm"..."it was just the same old chords played with a capo on, but the people thought something really special was happening so I just went along with it". Greetings from Ontario
@@Megabob777 I love the lakes, especially my home waters of Georgian Bay. The Arthur M Anderson was dressed up as the Fitzgerald for a movie and docked at Tiffin Elevator in Midland.
I grew up in Windsor, across from Detroit on the Detroit River. I remember as kid watching the ships go by. I distinctly remember the Arthur M because of the loader on deck, and remember the Fitz because it was a monster of a ship. Been to Whitefish Bay and I’ve boated on Lake Superior. Even on a nice day, it is an intimidating body of water.
I lived in Grosse pointe shores and used to sit on the bank of Lake St Claire listening to my boombox watching the ships in the distance. Now in Arizona, I do miss the lakes.
I always liked the idea of a rogue wave, but I think it's a combination of factors. The welds, the keel separating, and a large wave. Given she was the first of her type to use compartmentalised construction, it might not have been as strong as later ships using that method. She must have gone down quickly that there was no mayday.
They did a quick repair of the Fitzgerald not long before its fatal voyage. They were quick cheap welds on the spine of the ship. Plus several bulk head welds. The ship clearly had a lot of wear and tear.
I've read that it took a lone rouge wave before all that. That's what knocked the radar out. Most people don't know great lake freighters are not like typical ocean freighters. Only a small handfull have the bridge at the stern. Fitz and most of the other Lakers have bridges at the bow so its not much for both radar to be knocked out by a single wave.
In 2010, I was in Duluth Minnesota and saw Arthur Anderson coming to port . People on shore applauded the ship when they came in . I'm sure people remember them going to look for the Edmond Fitzgerald . In bad weather risking their own lives . ❤
Great presentation. You know the Birkenhead makes you proud, Shackleton & the Endurance is proof of the best in us but that picture of the Fitzgerald at the bottom of the lake makes you understand and feel the personification of ships. She looks like she suffered . And it's heartbreaking to look at somehow.
I put my trust in the theory of Bernie Cooper, the late Captain of the Arthur Andersen. He was of the opinion that the Fitzgerald either developed a stress factor in the hull, or had simply bottomed out. The first sign of trouble came in mid-afternoon, when one of the ship's fence rails snapped. When that happens, it is usually correlated with the ship, not sagging, but hogging on something. This may very well have been around the time the Fitzgerald reached the Six-fathom shoal. It's also around that time when the Fitzgerald started taking on more water than it could pump out. McSorley soon found himself taking on a starboard list. With no working radar systems left to guide him and no visibility on the lake, he's sailing blindly into a tempest. Then came the rogue waves. The Arthur Andersen survived them, but I believe they were the knockout punch to the Fitzgerald.
@@diachilders3271 I am of the opinion that it is a steel fence that runs the length of the ship along the gunnel, that is the top edge of the hull... if the ship was bending, that is arching over a high wave, then it would be stretched as the hull bent in an arch... this would pull it apart. Someone correct me if I am wrong...
Thank you for updating your episode on the Edmund Fitzgerald. I appreciate the additional context and discussion of the many possibilities of what could have happened.
I’ve watched quite a few videos about this sinking.. I was really happy to see you put up another video about it but.. always more to learn and your story telling abilities always have me dialed in till the end..
Kudos and mad respect for listening to the comments, and making constructive content out of it! I wasn't involved, but it's something you don't see every day anymore people being open minded to feedback.
Hot diggity dog! You made a video, read comments from fans about how it could have been better, and took that video down so you could make a better one? You’re one of the best on here!
First time watching your channel, won't be the last.grew up in Michigan.spent a lot of time on or near the Big lakes.saw the Fitz pass thru the Soo Locks a couple of times.big, gorgeous ship.just stunned me when they announced the tragedy.thanks for your thorough and honest video.
I’d be willing to bet my bottom dollar that the keel issue, combined with the three sisters waves, and the fact that it had taken on MORE weight from water intrusion is probably what did her in .. if they had loaded the ship to over its freeboard would allow , then MORE weight in the form of water got in, and if the fitz hit the three sisters, it would have overcome the ships ability to stay together with the broken keel, and it would’ve broke Fitzgeralds back and that’s why she disappeared soo fast and is lying in two pieces on the bottom .. the life rafts being torn and ripped from the derricks is a good sign that the three sisters did in fact hit the fitz.. the Anderson was able to survive the three sisters because her keel was still fully intact, but even she sustained substantial deck damage from them .. I don’t believe the 6 fathom shoal had anything to do with it.. The two sections are two far apart for it to have broken up when it hit the sea floor .. it broke apart at the surface and hydrodynamic forces caused them to separate fairly far apart, much like the titanic
Completely incorrect about the sinking... why is the Fitzgerald the only ship with such extensive damage to the midsection, and why is the length of missing midsection equal to the difference between the length of the vessel and the depth of water she rests in (~200ft)? Why do you say the sections are too far apart when they are actually CLOSER together than other wrecks of lakers that are confirmed to have broken in two on the surface? Why did McSorley report taking on a list AFTER passing Six Fathom Shoal and not before if there is no causal link?
@@br-v388 The fact that all of the experts agree that the ship would have sunk very soon after hitting the shoals seems to make it the cause unlikely.
The Mitchipicoten had a 17 foot crack in her this summer in Lake Superior. She had like a 15° list but made it to Thunder Bay. Her ballast pumps were going. The ballast tanks are between the outer hull and the inner hold. This is the double hull design. Something happened near 6 fathom shoal where she cracked some. She had ballast pumps going and had a list. This filled at least one ballast tank with water and reduced her freeboard. She then suffered more wave damage losing both her radars at the top of the pilot house. A wave did her in at the end where as she submarined to the bottom and exploding her mid section as she hit bottom at a high rate of speed thus damaging many hatch covers. The stern is less than 200 feet from the bow. No way she broke one the surface and sank in two.
Another fact not usually mentioned: The Fitz was a weather reporting ship, and was required to make reports regularly every 6 hours. On Nov 10, she made her 7 AM report, but did NOT make her 1 pm report. To not do this tells me there was an urgent problem going on, that required the captain's and deck officer's attention. The ship would have been near Otter Head, preparing to turn to the southeast. I think theories 1 & 2 are the primary cause,, especially the loose keel, that worked itself more loose as the ship worked in the heavy seas. Theory 5 comes in as well - they made their damage report to the Anderson immediately after exiting the shallow waters north of Caribou Island. Something serious must have happened while in the shallows. The lower freeboard, combined with even more loss of freeboard from the ship taking on water via the loose keel, caused her to scrape bottom, probably on six fathom shoal. It occurred below the lost vent caps, and the ship's hogging at that time caused the fence rail to tighten beyond its limits and snap. The vent caps were lost either by the recoil of the snapped fence cable, the internal pressure in the ballast tanks from the impact blowing them off, or both. The grounding punctured a hole in the ballast tanks (probably 2 of them, since 2 caps were lost) but did not puncture the cargo hold. However, the hole was large enough to overcome the pump's ability too remove the water. The 2 ballast tanks quickly flooded, and this ship took an immediate list.
I heard a variant of the bottoming out theory. It involves the strength and viscosity of water. There is a point at which water becomes as hard as concrete if it can’t get out of the way fast enough. It’s possible they took damage from the shoals without actually making contact with the rocks. I also heard the vent covers that were missing led to ballast tanks, which could point to the tanks being crushed. The flexing of such an event could also explain the railing. The middle 1/3 of the ship is folded under the rest of the wreck, and the forward section ends right about at those vents, indicating a weakness there.
As always brilliantly told…..I’ve mentioned before but love the visual side of your stories as much as your narration, the animation etc is brilliant, all helps me understand what’s going on….thanks so much! ❤
According to Cooper, what he thinks happened is that the ship was taking on water from the vents, and probably mildly hit bottom on the shoals. She was riding low and listing, but not in immediate danger of sinking and in better weather would have limped home. Then she got hit by the three sisters which had hit the Anderson. The first one probably swamped the deck, second one probably fully dunked the ship, at which point with a list and the whole ship underwater top to bottom, the ship's screw could have propelled it into the ground with force like a diving submarine(this is called breaking deep), breaking her in half as she hit the lakebed. It couldn't be the waves alone, she was in trouble prior and the Anderson handled them. But it also couldn't just be damage prior, if they were leaking bad enough they were in immediate danger of sinking they'd have called for help or indicated trouble. The ship was damaged, but limping, and the rogue waves finished her off.
Fitz was built when load limits were at a specific number. The load limits were increased, I believe more than once. Each increase of load limit meant the boat sat lower in the water. The profit motive/greed sank the Fitz, it had to carry loads it hadn’t been designed to carry, which it did successfully, until it had to do it in an excessively heavy a gale.
This comment is about a post 8 months ago, the Edmund Fitzgerald. I have only seen two videos about the Fitz, so I know so little compared to some folks. I have never heard them discuss is it possible to intentionally or not, overload the ship, with greater than what is being reported. Of course how much material can be known by how shallow or deep the boat sits in the water. I can imagine greed allowing for an overloaded ship. They must have expected some adverse weather. I can't imagine not planning for adverse weather. I don't know if ships can have an alternate destination for weather like airplanes. Like if when the weather got bad, point towards a coast and try to get it out of the wind and into a bay.
@@thomastucker5686the great lakes freeze over in the winter to the point no boats can travel. November when the ship sank is the last month you can really do anything on the lakes. So they do try to get as much as possible
Always appreciate coverage of the Great Lakes, you've definitely upped your game, well done! It's still crazy seeing the Arthur M. Anderson in service, I got some beautiful footage when she passed Mackinaw. Whitefish Point is really pretty and it sucks seeing how close to safety the Fitzgerald was
The quality of your information and storytelling is unmatched! Super informative and entertaining to watch thank you!! Also huge respect for redoing the video, we'll watch this one too no worries HAHA 🖤
Amazing that after all these years, the Fitz is still talked about so vigorously. One thing not mentioned about the shoal grounding theory is Captain Cooper's statement that he got a call from McSorley not long after the Fitz passed over Six Fathom, stating that he had 'a fence rail down, a starboard list, and a couple of vents missing'. Remember, this was not long after passing through Six Fathom shoal. That would make it seem that SOMETHING happened as they passed over the area. Just my humble opinion.
Thank you for doing such an excellent job on this video. The research you did for this video actually produced some information as well as photographs and home movies I had never seen before. Not many people admit when they could have done better. You did. Rock on!
I strongly believe that a rogue wave got her, since the bridge visor is smashed down, she literally vanished in an instant, and there was another ship like her that stayed afloat for a while after breaking up.
If you look at the bow you’ll see the visor around the windows. We know that there was reports of rogue waves. The steel visor around the windows is bent down further; like a Ruffles chip. She got bowed by one of the waves and the second one coming on she went straight in to and to the bottom, her bow strikes the bottom under propulsion; the stern breaks off from the stress.
basically, yeah that's the waves doing her in. bad hatches are another, wet shifting cargo causing the list. A heavy bow can cause hogging over the crest of a wave and that explains the broken railing. Then come the three witches. Bow in a trough, stern raised up, and the second wave sends her nose to the bottom. I think the sinking really came as a shock it was so fast.
From what I have heard is that there were gaps between the bottom plates and the steel beams in the bottom of the Fitz. They had done a temporary fix by putting steel plates in the gaps. Years later there were sheets of steel sitting in the tall grasses at Frasier Shipyard marked "Edmund Fitzgerald" The theory being the Fitz was going to be undergoing major work at the end of the season
the 3 sisters drove the ship down, as the fist wave ran up her deck it drove the bow down, then the second wave lifted the stern and the screws just drove her to the bottom with the ship being longer then the depth when the bow hit bottom the stern broke off the center of the ship just desinagrated. Cpt Cooper said they were the biggest waves he had ever seen. Thanks for the video. 💚💙👍👍👏👏👏
I know they say 3 sisters but the captain of the Anderson said two rouge waves and huge up to 50 ft high and he knew those two waves heading towards the Fitz would do her in with the list ice build up from freezing rain they said they never found proof that it scraped the reef but being so heavy with a list and even the normal seas were up around 20 footers but he said when he did his interview when it happened that those two rouge waves were massive took her down fast makes most sense and he was right there why they didn't listen to him more when a very experienced captain says he was hit by these waves and they were heading towards a ship already having trouble he knew what happened I've been on Superior and it's beautiful on the water and it can change so fast or we would get hit by a big roller we called them they come out of nowhere and Superior is famous for its big rollers even in Summer time the water is a wake up when you jump in so cold they say most of the crew are still in their ship and the cold prevents them from floating up and keeps them in almost same condition even now so many years ago so bad but sorry got off topic but agree with you and captain from Anderson that those waves were the finishing swamping it rip
I think there is a culprit not mentioned. Prior to loading, the ship was inspected by the Coast Guard. Damage to the coatings was found, (the raised areas surrounding the cargo holds that the hatch covers sit on and are clamped over.) Despite this damage,(which would allow water to enter the hold between the hatch cover and the deck plating if waves flowed over the deck) the inspector passed the ship, with the agreement that this damage would be repaired during the winter lay up. However the storm nixxed that and the ship sank. If the inspector had done his job, the Fitzjerald wouldn't have been there and wouldn't have sunk. So the big factor and the 7th cause was the Coast Guard Inspection, and the CG not doing their job, which was to keep the crew out of danger.
Excellent presentation! Easy to follow, new facts and those previously known, a host who allowed us to enjoy the video with his comments... 10 out of 10.
This was brilliant and very informative. Even with all of the stuff I have read and watched over the years, there was still a bunch of things in here that I have never seen before. You do magnificent work, and I look forward to watching more of your videos.
As someone who is from Michigan and fascinated by shipwrecks, it always crazy to think about how nasty these lakes can get. I dont think people outside of the greatlakes region realizes how absolutely insane the waves and weather can get on the great lakes. Its like the north or bering sea's.
I live on Lake Ontario, right where it joins the St. Lawrence River, and we're only about four or five miles from the U.S. shore with a large island in between, so we're pretty protected. But right past that, the lake opens right up, so we still get some wild waves sometimes. I remember swimming at the beach one day, and a wave came up that was well over my head, and just looked up at it as it slammed me down. I can't comprehend what the weather on the larger lakes, especially Superior, would be like. It never occured to me growing up that not being able to see the opposite shore was anything unusual...the lake was just the lake.
A quality creator. Superior is a beautiful lake, I recommend a visit if you have the means. It's interesting to note that diving to the wreck is no longer allowed. Lax maintenance is my guess but without further information it is impossible to verify, whatever the cause.
Yep. A single cause didn't sink the ship. It would have been multiple problems culminating in a catastrophic event. Driving her fast to out run the storm and get ahead of the other ship, probably began the cascade of events. She didn't hit any shoal, just hitting waves at 5 or 6 knots faster than the other ship was all it took as the wind began shifting 180 degrees and the seas state became larger and more confused. The first indication of trouble was when they observed damage to deck fittings from wave action and were taking on water to the extent that they had both pumps running. That simple bit of information was the death knell.... Later they begin to lose radar and electronics. They developed a list which indicates that the pumps are not keeping up with water ingress, or that the bilge piping/bilgecocks/strainers were malfunctioning and some areas could not be pumped. The fact she began taking water on in such heavy seas doomed her. Any ship that begins taking on water in heavy seas is now in a countdown to destruction. It doesn't get better. It only gets worse until catastrophe.
The most interesting and persuasive theory on here and you don't even mention the design issues, overloading, and delayed maintenance that may have already had the ship taking on water before McSorley decided to kick the Fitz into high gear. All of these issue would have made it even more susceptible. McSorley knew his ship well (a deathtrap in these conditions), but I think your statement on the seas becoming larger and more confused is the most plausible theory. I'm pretty sure waves get much bigger when they come near shore and the shallow shoal area might have cause the waves to be unusually large. With the state of the ship verified as poor it might be worth someone modelling what the wave might have been like over the shoal.
My theory is that the faulty welds combined with missing vent covers as well as being slightly overloaded caused this catastrophe. Had the ship been filled to capacity and not more the Fitzgerald might have survived that storm. Why the faulty welds weren't repaired is mind blowing, due to the fact that those welds are below the surface of the water.
I live in Superior, the Arthur Anderson is getting ready to leave winter lay up for another season. It is cool to walk down on the ship yards and see the history first hand.
The wreck needs to be dived on again. The new technology will certainly answer sinking theory 1-5. There is also a body on the lake bottom that was never recovered.
The family dont want it recovered. when Fred Shannon dived on the wreck back in the '90s or 2000s, whenever the last expedition to the wreck was, and filmed the body, he showed it to the US Coast guard the Canadian Coast guard and Oglebay Norton. They chose not to retrieve it at the request of the families who wanted it left down there. To my knowledge the families didn't even request to view the footage. It is a person laying on the seafloor with debris on top of them, wearing a cork style life jacket. He is located somewhere just off the starboard bow pinned under debris on the lake floor
@@mikeprimm4077 I have seen the photos. They can leave their loved ones there. If there is a way to definitively determine what happened that led to the sinking should be explored.
@mikeprimm4077 I believe there were other bodies in state room and in forward steering pilot house.. I think they should bring them up and identify but families don't want that.
Biggest clue is there was no mayday call. From one wave to the next she was gone. I think she split in half on the surface and plunged to the bottom in a second. Keel welds and possible overloading.
Splinting in half on the surface doesn't fit the evidence. The two halves are to close together on the bottom to have split on the surface. The would have sunk at different speeds and ended up pointed in different directions and father apart.
There is a video on youtube of a Turkish vessel that is very similar to this. They are in bad conditions and the front of the boat is hanging in the air and snaps in half
Soooo rare for someone to have the humility of character for them to make a 100% transparent reassessment of an entire video, remove it, outline what they didn't get exactly right and give credit to providers of new data, even crediting lowly viewers/subscribers, phew!! The highest honor I can give is that I fall asleep to your narrative, alough I always rewatch what I missed!! You are a consummate professional. Thank you 😊
It’s the quality of the hull itself that was the primary problem. Several related ships all broke their backs in similar storms, all due to the relatively poor quality of iron used to make their hulls. This is almost certainly what actually sank the EF, but poor deck management and back luck with waves no doubt put them in such a fateful position.
Which related vessels would those be? The Fitz' only sister ship, the Arthur B Homer was laid up and scrapped due to economic reasons, not structural problems. The Herbert C. Jackson was built by GLEW with the same steel and construction techniques and sails to this day.
@@br-v388 The Herbert C. Jackson is 40 feet shorter and so was not subject to the same stresses. The Arthur B Homer was lengthened in 1975 and the Fitzgerald had similar plans for early 1976. A hidden "ecoomic" factor one could imagine for such a short return on their investment in the Homer must have been the fear of the possibility of a repeat disaster. I don't know of any other directly related ships.
New subscriber. I really enjoy your videos. Very informative. I was in Sault Ste. Marie the day and night of the storm that took the Fitz.(just a few miles from where she sank) I have never seen a storm like that storm. It blew out hotel windows and toppled trees all over the city.
@@waterlinestories the next day, when the news reports came out, we were aghast that the Mighty Fitz was gone. Lake Superior is treacherous in November.
Two hull sections says catestrophic failure of the keel and gunnles, allowing for no mayday call, essentially turned the EF into a submarine. If the life boats were wrenched away from their stations, we're talking seconds to where the bridge was completely submurged at speed.
I am by no means an expert, more of an extreme fascination because of Gordon Lightfoot’s haunting song. I remember when it sank, along with Harry Reasoner’s reporting. If I had to wager a guess, I’d say it was a combination of things. Literally and figuratively it was the perfect storm. The keel issue wasn’t something I was totally unaware of. The railing being down is an indication of flexing of the ship. The fact that it appears it stayed down to indicates the ship was fatally broken. The Three Sisters as it’s described finished off the great ship and pushed them under. No bodies, only pieces of wrenched away life boats and jackets. It’s anybody’s guess as to what happened. We do know that whatever happened to the ship, it was swift and overwhelming. It just disappeared from the Anderson’s radar. Everything started out so normally and within 24 hours dissolved into a great mystery. I dare say unless someone is allowed to go down and thoroughly investigate the rack, the hatches that they can at least see the ends of the bow and the sterns keel it’s, it’s really hard to say. Not to minimize either of these events, but will have to put it up there with JFK‘s assassination, and the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald. No one seems to really have all the answers. Great video I can’t thank you enough.
I subscribe to the theory that the lack of suitable freeboard made her vulnerable to large wave action. She was in one of the worst parts of the entire Great Lakes for waves as the shorelines of the the US and Canada are known to cause deflection creating inconsistent wavelengths, standing waves and additive wave heights as one piles onto another from all directions. All of this could cause a low riding boat to be easily swamped. She would take on more and more water - the weight of which could cause severe hogging. Given her length and the depth of the water, if she took on a load of water that pitched forward and caused her bow to dive, her bow could have plowed into the bottom in seconds while her stern was still on the surface pushing forward at full steam. All these combined forces could have easily caused her to break and for her center section to disintegrate. Additionally, just as an uneven loading at pier side can break her keel, thousands of tons of water piling up on either her bow or stern could do the same.
Having worked in the oil industry for almost 25 years (only 4 years offshore) my experience is disasters tend to be caused by a multiplying effect. Generally systems are designed to cope with several issues but every now and then you will get more that can be planned for without crazy expenditure and many people watching these videos will know companies cut corners often because of government regulation. It's always the little guys that get screwed.
Did you watch the documentary of the captain of the Arthur m Anderson's opinion on what happened? His makes perfect sense. Also they did find a body but deleted or edited the original video out of respect for the families.
The fact that the vessel was found in two pieces suggests that faulted construction (welds) and extreme weather were to blame .. though this is only an opinion.
We live on the waterway the Edmund Fitzgerald travelled on. Years ago I was out near the lake, and the weather was very cold and windy, and the waves were really high. I remember thinking how glad I wasn't out on the water that night. Turns out that day was the anniversary (30th, I think) of the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald and the weather conditions were identical to the ones on the night the ship sank. Sometimes when it's quiet you can hear the lake freighter horns as they pass by. I'm always reminded of the Edmund Fitzgerald whenever I hear one. Sort of related: There's a Simpsons episode where Bart gets a Mr. Microphone type of gift for his birthday from Homer, and at one point Homer is singing "Convoy," but they actually wanted him to sing "The Ballad of the Edmund Fitzgerald." The reason he didn't was because they couldn't get the rights to the song, because Gordon Lightfoot gave them to the families of the Edmund Fitzgerald's crew.
What has always terrified me is hearing the howling winds as the captain of the Arthur Anderson speaks to Captain McSorley - terrifying. I’m still convinced of the rogue wave theory since the AA captain reported them and they been proven fairly recently as a real terrible possibility…it would have turned her over and sunk her in minutes as it seems to have done…
All the theories combined seem a logical explanation, the many factors compounded ontop of eachother until the ships structural integrity catastrophically failed.
Choosing to remove a video after community feedback and undertake a comprehensive re-make is a serious integrity move. Few RUclipsrs hold themselves to that high a standard.
Thanks for your diligence and superior content.
I agree. This sinking is a touchy subject for many in the Great Lakes region at least Michigan. We all grow up learning about it. I think he gave mention towards the end about how all the parties don't want the blame placed on them. Touchy might not be the right wording but people have strong feelings still about it.
Superior content. I see what you did there
@@robert48044 I'm from superior, the town the Edmund left from. My daughter is 12 and has already learned all about the Edmund Fitzgerald. I wonder if it will ever stop being taught about.
I agree one hundred percent, another youtuber Oceanliner Designs did the same thing in an excellent video about Titanic’s engines
I come from a long line of commercial fishermen .I grew up on the Oregon coast and learned about this ship.as a kid in the 80's I just taught my youngest daughter about the Fits .I recently moved to Pittsburgh and am immersing my self in everything maritime greatlakes. I believe it will be taught for years
My grandfather sailed the lakes for 14 years, including on the Fitzgerald from 70 to 74. My Aunt was born in 72, Mom was born in 74, so he took a job in the shipyards so he wasn't gone most of the year. Had alot of stories to tell about the lakes, many of them pretty terrifying. He said the waves used to come onto ship on the rear, ride the length of the deck, and plow into the pilot house. He always subscribed to the theory that the Fitz nose dived, hit the bottom, and then twisted in half. He knew most of the men on the Fitz that went down that night. Grandma said it was a pretty rough ordeal for him, on many levels.
With the observed damage I would agree
I have followed this for years. It’s been kind of an obsession actually. My theory of what happened is my own and not necessarily the view of everyone else. Nor does it mean that’s what happened. But this is my thoughts in short version. She was steaming along in the storm just fine until they lost both radars. Whilst in contact with the Anderson I believe she was closer to the 6 fathom shoal than they realised. Fully loaded and low in the water. I believe she struck bottom with quite a force and she hogged. Thus snapping the deck fence and fractured the hull. The sudden rushing in of the water blew the vent caps off. So from there on she was sinking. And to develop a list so quickly fits the theory. The crew manned the pumps but unfortunately couldn’t keep up with the incoming water. She continued through the storm for another 3 or 4 hours until she was so low in the water, that the waves rolling up her deck pushed her bow down so far that it couldn’t recover. So here’s the next part of my theory. As she went down, and this part I believe happened very very quickly, she nose dived into the bottom, and the damage to the forward part of the ship supports this theory.so as the bow digs in to the bottom the prop still turning torque twisted her over, I believe she broke at the fracture point where she hit the shoal, and the 200 foot mid section disintegrated. By this time the stern is inverted and sank like a stone . Trapping most of the crew in the accommodation area. They had no chance of escape. I believe the actual sinking was extremely quick and almost instant. R.I.P to the 29 on board. May you all rest in eternal peace.
@johnkirby8849
I had similar theory. I think the bow went under a wave and never able to recover and the engine drove her to the bottom.
The part that doesn't fit the theory from everything I could find, divers couldn't find any scrape marks on the shoal.
I was 10 years old at the time!
I have always been fascinated with the Fitz sinking.
good friend of mines grand father was suposed to be sailing on the fitz,,and he decided to stay home this trip to do some work at home. lucky guy,,and lucky for my friend or she would never have been born. she said he was reallly freaked out about it for the rest of his life.
I'm no expert. But looking at the wreckage, I agree with your grandfather. Sure looks like she went down in one piece and then broke with the hard impact. The two parts of the ship are fairly close together. If she had split on the surface, the parts would likely not be so close together. It is the old adage called "Ocaam's Razor." The most obvious explanation is most often the correct one.
To say:
" okay I get your point of view, I'll take your comments on board and re do this video"
marks you out as someone to watch further. I don't subscribe often, but your humility and teachability commend you .
To be able to look at a situation from multiple angles and adapt your point of view is a mark of maturity.
Well said
I worked at a medical supply store in Brainerd with someone from Castle Danger near Two Harbors. He said his brother sailed on the Fitz around 1973 and after a short time, “Couldn’t wait to get off that death trap.” The ship had had problems with hogging from what I’ve read. I also believe it’s a combination of things as not one of the theories by themselves explain everything.
In seas like that, anything that could go wrong, probably did.
I'm no mariner, but I have to agree that it was likely a combination of all these theories. Frankly, I've never heard about the keel issues before and given the conditions, how can anyone NOT move that near the top of the list?
it was in bad shape..the keel was indeed detached and was scheduled for a repair and refit after this voyage. They had special plates made up to shim and attach it
Brainerd is REAL? I always thought that Fargo made that place up.
I’m in a suburb of Detroit, Michigan. I am born and raised here. As a young nurse specializing in Radiation Oncology, I took care of a ship captain. He told me the Great Lakes are very dangerous and explained why, taking a glass of water and swirling it around saying the huge waves have no place to go except crashing into each other, or on top of you. He told me once he saw a ship pealed back like a can of tuna. I was mesmerized by this Captain, and knew I was in the presence of a special man…..he had prostate cancer, but did well….he was so interesting to talk too….
I’ve read all the books over and over, watched shows repeatedly and now this one on replay. This redo very well done. I know I owe you a subscription and need to get to that.
The Great Lakes Shipwreck Museum located at Michigan's Whitefish Point Light-Station is a must see for anyone interested in the loss of the Edmund Fitzgerald or any of the other hundreds of ships lost along the Lake Superior Shipwreck Coast. My wife and I finally made it to the museum last year and were deeply moved by the displays there, especially of the Edmund Fitzgerald's ship's bell. It was a both gratifying and poignant visit there. Gratifying in that as a young man I got to meet Phil Nuytten, the inventor of the "Newtsuit" several times and actually listened to him ponder on the idea of a hard shell exo diving suit before he finally invented it in 1979. His Newtsuit was used to explore the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. Poignant in that there is an observation platform from which, if the weather had allowed the lights of the Edmund Fitzgerald would have been visible from Whitefish Point just before it sank.
As a Michigander, Lake Superior is no joke. Of all the Great Lakes, it's pretty well established Superior is the scariest, and when you visit, you can get a sense of why. I live in a bay off Lake Michigan, and even on shore, there are times where it reminds you it can get scary.
And with the amount of land the wind covers, it has a lot of time to cool down before hitting you in the face, going from Great Lake to Bering Strait in minutes.
A half hour Waterline Stories to start off the weekend, most excellent. Love the longer form videos, keep it up!
Going into an ad read is WILD
Fully agree 👍
❤ the fact tht he took down older video to improve 👍 😊
Great job folks. Love all but longer is better❤
👋 hello and thank you from southern Canada 🇨🇦
She was a beautiful monster Ol Fitzgerald😢
Sad tragedy. Here one minute, gone the next 😞
Hope you enjoyed👍🏻
I think it's brilliant that this guy has read people's comments, looked into it further and floated other theories. Responding to the comments is a great thing to do!
It's interesting. No matter how much I research, the collective knowledge of this audience is incredible. I always learn more about an incident after I post a video from the comments.
To think, I almost didn't click into this . . . "another one on the Fitzgerald!!! It's probably one I've already watched . . . " BUT you had me hooked with that first line & you did not disappoint !!! AWESOME & BRILLIANTLY CONSIDERATE!
@sydney.g.sloangammagee8181 Thanks, I really appreciate that
@@waterlinestoriesalthough an inordinate amount of planes and boats disappear in the Bermuda triangle the Great lakes are known as the shipping graveyard
"floated other theories" I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE!
It's mind blowing that the Arthur M Anderson is still in service today.
Fresh water does wonders for vessel life expectancy.
Hell, that is living history.
The Gordon Lightfoot song as well as the footage was very haunting, l felt so sad l was in tears
It is floating proof of the term "They don't make em' like they used too". Sadly ALOT of that eras ships had some or ALOT of bad, brittle steel that took far too many.
When I was working on the Bob-Lo ships in the 80's and 90's there were a few ships from 1890's and 1900's in service still. Ours were 1902 and 1910.
I grew up in Toledo Ohio and my dad was a shipkeeper for ASC. It amazes me that so many more of these freighters haven’t gone down. Every winter they come into Toledo and lay up for the winter and most if not all of them would have to have the bottoms welded back together as they’d constantly split. Instead of retiring these old freighters they just continue welding them. I’ve heard atleast 3 captains and chiefs say that the company would rather pay out a wrongful death suit than to replace the ship because it was cheaper. But man did I love staying up on these big boats throughout the winter and summers when they’d be layed up throughout the year. Nothing more relaxing than throwing a mattress down on the floor of the pilot house, crank the ac, and listen to the radio traffic and watch the thunderstorms. 🌩️ I really miss it though.
Climbing up on them and jumping off before the cops could catch you was so much fun when I was growing up in Ontario. The Sir James Dunn was retired in my hometown and my friends could often be found "down at the Dunn".
@@richardstever3242 youth 😊
Go back to those days bro...Just quit your job and leave your house and go to the ship and chill there for as long as you can
@@thedude3620 I keep trying to back to the 'good old days", but the sun goes down, the rains come and the buzz fades away...dammit!
Speculation.......who knows ? Probably a combination of all the factors.
I am a Great Lakes Sailor. Weather can turn a calm lake, into a washing machine. The Fitz actually had a double bottom. They filled the bottom with water when empty to make it ride smoother. When loaded, it's empty. If they hit the schoal, it could have filled the bottom. That would have allowed them to keep going with the pumps running. The "3 sisters" hit the first one, followed closely by the 2nd and 3rd. It's brutal!
What boat do you work on? I worked on the tug boat Undaunted, and also worked on the Oberstar for a time.
I've been out on Lake Ontario, a calm lake compared to Superior, many times and it can get rough. We call them lakes but they're really inland seas with most of the same effects a sea experiences.
@@DIRTYBILL1994 I solo sail a 34 foot sailboat! Been a Great Lakes sailor, since 1982. I soloed a 41 footer when I was 13, from Muskegon to Chicago. Don't think anyone would allow that now a days!
I believe you. As once they encountered the three sisters. It was all over for them. It broke the ship in half and sank so fast. Not even a call went out. They never had time to send one..
@@SoloSailing77that’s awesome. I don’t know anything about sailing. But my dream is to retire and sail the Caribbean 😂
Whatever theory or combined theories that would explain how the Edmund Fitzgerald sank so quickly is probably correct. I think of Captain McSorely (sp?) being on the bridge of the Edmund Fitzgerald in that dire situation. He had to be very close to a radio or phone. However, he didn't even have a chance to say that his ship was sinking. That's how fast it happened. That's telltale in and of itself.
Could it be that one or both of those 30'-35' waves that Captain Cooper of the Anderson reported somehow caused the bow of the Edmund Fitzgerald to dip below the surface of the water and then pointing downward she just keep right on going to the bottom as if it was swallowed by the heavy seas? That combined with the fact that she was listing and had already taken in a lot of water makes sense to me as to why the Edmund Fitzgerald not only sank but did so very suddenly and rapidly.
Great video! Very no-nonsense, clear and to the point!
I agree. It had to have happened so fast. He was an experienced enough captain that he would have known when to called mayday. I believe a rouge huge wave broke them deep and it snapped in two, and sunk so quick, they wouldn’t have had time to call for help.
He was taking water and in that storm he was getting lower and lower giving the impression that seas were increasing. When the end came it was very fast. Literally the blink of an eye.
@@diachilders3271 The steel all around the pilot house is dented up from force of the water. That's moving fast under water.
I think the combination of the 2 sisters did it. Cooper said he guessed the timing matched up. Not to mention those waves would have gotten worse the closer they got to shore. If the waves were spaced right the first could have been pushing the pilot house down while the second was lifting the stern. The open bridge door has me curious if someone could have gotten out? Hard to imagine after the wild ride down and being in pitch black. More believable that the smash into the bottom forced the door open? I dont know.
@@diachilders3271 I absolutely agree with the "rogue wave theory". Further to that, there is a video on RUclips that tests the theory out. Respected diver Mike Fletcher and his son Warren explore the theory, and in my opinion, offer the most likely situation that a rogue wave took her out. Coupled with the fact that she was thousands of tonnes over the recommended weight. "Dive Detectives - Edmund Fitzgerald" is very much worth the watch.
I admire you for saying that you could do better and you did! great job man, thanks for sharing with us all this research you did
Ever since I found this Channel about 6 months ago I absolutely adore watching all of the videos and catching up on all the other videos. As much as I want to I simply cannot watch this video. My parents had just gotten married and he sailed on the lakes for a job. I can tell you she was so scared because at that time they didn't know who had gone down. My dad sailed the Munson that year but he knew every man on board the Fitz. I've heard the stories from him over the years and the last words anyone ever heard from them "We're holding our own" has always been gut wrenching. One thing I can say is the chief mate would NEVER have sailed unless everyone single hatch was dogged securely. He was well known for that on every trip not just the last one. I have no doubt that he double checked every one of those hatches especially because they knew what weather they had. All the years my dad sailed I hated Novembers the most. November Witches are no joke and I was worried every time. I wish I could watch this episode but I just can't. It's just too close to home. Even now that my dad retired it's still hard. I just know all about the Fitz and hate to have reminders even all these years later.
I am looking forward to next video though.
Pandora, bless your heart ! ! !
I have seen all of his videos, especially these on the Fitzgerald & if you could watch any of them, this would be the one . . . he is very carefully considerate about every detail of collected & accumulated information that he presents in a very gracious manner!!!
I'm delighted you got to have your dad with you to raise you - a tribute to your dad in memory of those who weren't there to raise their kids. God bless your parents!!!
" too close to home. " there are experiences we accumulate in life that we learn never to revisit . definitely part of the human condition. you can start out as brave as you want to be but as the years accumulate you learn there are things greater and more terrible than you.
I'm not a mariner, I don't even swim well, but i enjoy your content and how carefully and considerately you present these stories
Thank you.
The best mariners don't swim well...
Many of the Captains don't have drivers licenses either.
My grandfather was on the Anderson that night! As he told me the fitz was picked up from the stern by the first wave of the three sister's and was driven into the lake bed!! The subsequent 2 other waves swamped the rest of the ship and the bow never came out of the first wave, cheers
That is exactly what my late father told me he suspected the cause of the sinking to be. It's never been a popular theory, But I've always thought it might be the correct one.
why is it broken in two though?
Not many people realize the ship was 200 feet longer than the depth of the water it sank in…so that’s a possibility
Ok supposed she took a nose dive where then is the ore that should have slid to the bow? They have looked in the bow cargo holds and they are empty
@@Roadrunner4447 well the ship is split in two and half of it is upside down.
…and in a larger sense, every last ounce is at the bottom of the lake somewhere
R.I.P Gordon Lightfoot and the 29 sailors who were lost
I did wonder if anyone else made this connection!
He played at the Port McNicol Inn several times but I was too young to get in. "I'm going to play you a song in the key of Bm"..."it was just the same old chords played with a capo on, but the people thought something really special was happening so I just went along with it". Greetings from Ontario
@@richardstever3242 ayyy a fellow ontarian
@@Megabob777 I love the lakes, especially my home waters of Georgian Bay. The Arthur M Anderson was dressed up as the Fitzgerald for a movie and docked at Tiffin Elevator in Midland.
@@richardstever3242 man you definitely know a lot more about great lakes shipping than I do lol, wish i knew more tbh
I grew up in Windsor, across from Detroit on the Detroit River. I remember as kid watching the ships go by. I distinctly remember the Arthur M because of the loader on deck, and remember the Fitz because it was a monster of a ship. Been to Whitefish Bay and I’ve boated on Lake Superior. Even on a nice day, it is an intimidating body of water.
I lived in Grosse pointe shores and used to sit on the bank of Lake St Claire listening to my boombox watching the ships in the distance. Now in Arizona, I do miss the lakes.
😅😅😊
I always liked the idea of a rogue wave, but I think it's a combination of factors. The welds, the keel separating, and a large wave. Given she was the first of her type to use compartmentalised construction, it might not have been as strong as later ships using that method. She must have gone down quickly that there was no mayday.
As they say, safety standards are written in blood...
They did a quick repair of the Fitzgerald not long before its fatal voyage. They were quick cheap welds on the spine of the ship. Plus several bulk head welds. The ship clearly had a lot of wear and tear.
I'm with you on that one.
I've read that it took a lone rouge wave before all that. That's what knocked the radar out. Most people don't know great lake freighters are not like typical ocean freighters. Only a small handfull have the bridge at the stern. Fitz and most of the other Lakers have bridges at the bow so its not much for both radar to be knocked out by a single wave.
@@castlekingside76no doubt caused by constant overloading to satisfy certain individuals egos ! Utterly tragic.
In 2010, I was in Duluth Minnesota and saw Arthur Anderson coming to port . People on shore applauded the ship when they came in . I'm sure people remember them going to look for the Edmond Fitzgerald . In bad weather risking their own lives . ❤
Great presentation. You know the Birkenhead makes you proud, Shackleton & the Endurance is proof of the best in us but that picture of the Fitzgerald at the bottom of the lake makes you understand and feel the personification of ships. She looks like she suffered . And it's heartbreaking to look at somehow.
I put my trust in the theory of Bernie Cooper, the late Captain of the Arthur Andersen. He was of the opinion that the Fitzgerald either developed a stress factor in the hull, or had simply bottomed out.
The first sign of trouble came in mid-afternoon, when one of the ship's fence rails snapped. When that happens, it is usually correlated with the ship, not sagging, but hogging on something. This may very well have been around the time the Fitzgerald reached the Six-fathom shoal. It's also around that time when the Fitzgerald started taking on more water than it could pump out. McSorley soon found himself taking on a starboard list.
With no working radar systems left to guide him and no visibility on the lake, he's sailing blindly into a tempest.
Then came the rogue waves. The Arthur Andersen survived them, but I believe they were the knockout punch to the Fitzgerald.
Bernie Cooper has one on all the speculators...He was in the midst of it all ... He has my respect.
What is a fence rail?
@@diachilders3271 I am of the opinion that it is a steel fence that runs the length of the ship along the gunnel, that is the top edge of the hull... if the ship was bending, that is arching over a high wave, then it would be stretched as the hull bent in an arch... this would pull it apart. Someone correct me if I am wrong...
@@ddbbloch4457I believe you're correct!
Lakers are built to flex but there is a limit
Thank you for updating your episode on the Edmund Fitzgerald. I appreciate the additional context and discussion of the many possibilities of what could have happened.
I’ve watched quite a few videos about this sinking.. I was really happy to see you put up another video about it but.. always more to learn and your story telling abilities always have me dialed in till the end..
Kudos and mad respect for listening to the comments, and making constructive content out of it! I wasn't involved, but it's something you don't see every day anymore people being open minded to feedback.
Probably the most in depth video I've seen in a long time
Hot diggity dog! You made a video, read comments from fans about how it could have been better, and took that video down so you could make a better one? You’re one of the best on here!
First time watching your channel, won't be the last.grew up in Michigan.spent a lot of time on or near the Big lakes.saw the Fitz pass thru the Soo Locks a couple of times.big, gorgeous ship.just stunned me when they announced the tragedy.thanks for your thorough and honest video.
I’d be willing to bet my bottom dollar that the keel issue, combined with the three sisters waves, and the fact that it had taken on MORE weight from water intrusion is probably what did her in ..
if they had loaded the ship to over its freeboard would allow , then MORE weight in the form of water got in, and if the fitz hit the three sisters, it would have overcome the ships ability to stay together with the broken keel, and it would’ve broke Fitzgeralds back and that’s why she disappeared soo fast and is lying in two pieces on the bottom .. the life rafts being torn and ripped from the derricks is a good sign that the three sisters did in fact hit the fitz.. the Anderson was able to survive the three sisters because her keel was still fully intact, but even she sustained substantial deck damage from them .. I don’t believe the 6 fathom shoal had anything to do with it..
The two sections are two far apart for it to have broken up when it hit the sea floor .. it broke apart at the surface and hydrodynamic forces caused them to separate fairly far apart, much like the titanic
A broken back would also be in line with the "loose railing" mentioned on radio to the Andersen
Completely incorrect about the sinking... why is the Fitzgerald the only ship with such extensive damage to the midsection, and why is the length of missing midsection equal to the difference between the length of the vessel and the depth of water she rests in (~200ft)? Why do you say the sections are too far apart when they are actually CLOSER together than other wrecks of lakers that are confirmed to have broken in two on the surface? Why did McSorley report taking on a list AFTER passing Six Fathom Shoal and not before if there is no causal link?
@@br-v388 The fact that all of the experts agree that the ship would have sunk very soon after hitting the shoals seems to make it the cause unlikely.
The Mitchipicoten had a 17 foot crack in her this summer in Lake Superior. She had like a 15° list but made it to Thunder Bay. Her ballast pumps were going.
The ballast tanks are between the outer hull and the inner hold. This is the double hull design. Something happened near 6 fathom shoal where she cracked some. She had ballast pumps going and had a list.
This filled at least one ballast tank with water and reduced her freeboard. She then suffered more wave damage losing both her radars at the top of the pilot house.
A wave did her in at the end where as she submarined to the bottom and exploding her mid section as she hit bottom at a high rate of speed thus damaging many hatch covers.
The stern is less than 200 feet from the bow.
No way she broke one the surface and sank in two.
@@br-v388 she rests in 550 ft
Another fact not usually mentioned: The Fitz was a weather reporting ship, and was required to make reports regularly every 6 hours. On Nov 10, she made her 7 AM report, but did NOT make her 1 pm report. To not do this tells me there was an urgent problem going on, that required the captain's and deck officer's attention. The ship would have been near Otter Head, preparing to turn to the southeast. I think theories 1 & 2 are the primary cause,, especially the loose keel, that worked itself more loose as the ship worked in the heavy seas. Theory 5 comes in as well - they made their damage report to the Anderson immediately after exiting the shallow waters north of Caribou Island. Something serious must have happened while in the shallows. The lower freeboard, combined with even more loss of freeboard from the ship taking on water via the loose keel, caused her to scrape bottom, probably on six fathom shoal. It occurred below the lost vent caps, and the ship's hogging at that time caused the fence rail to tighten beyond its limits and snap. The vent caps were lost either by the recoil of the snapped fence cable, the internal pressure in the ballast tanks from the impact blowing them off, or both. The grounding punctured a hole in the ballast tanks (probably 2 of them, since 2 caps were lost) but did not puncture the cargo hold. However, the hole was large enough to overcome the pump's ability too remove the water. The 2 ballast tanks quickly flooded, and this ship took an immediate list.
What a wild ride of a video. Great watch. Thanks!
I heard a variant of the bottoming out theory. It involves the strength and viscosity of water. There is a point at which water becomes as hard as concrete if it can’t get out of the way fast enough. It’s possible they took damage from the shoals without actually making contact with the rocks.
I also heard the vent covers that were missing led to ballast tanks, which could point to the tanks being crushed. The flexing of such an event could also explain the railing.
The middle 1/3 of the ship is folded under the rest of the wreck, and the forward section ends right about at those vents, indicating a weakness there.
As always brilliantly told…..I’ve mentioned before but love the visual side of your stories as much as your narration, the animation etc is brilliant, all helps me understand what’s going on….thanks so much! ❤
According to Cooper, what he thinks happened is that the ship was taking on water from the vents, and probably mildly hit bottom on the shoals. She was riding low and listing, but not in immediate danger of sinking and in better weather would have limped home.
Then she got hit by the three sisters which had hit the Anderson. The first one probably swamped the deck, second one probably fully dunked the ship, at which point with a list and the whole ship underwater top to bottom, the ship's screw could have propelled it into the ground with force like a diving submarine(this is called breaking deep), breaking her in half as she hit the lakebed.
It couldn't be the waves alone, she was in trouble prior and the Anderson handled them. But it also couldn't just be damage prior, if they were leaking bad enough they were in immediate danger of sinking they'd have called for help or indicated trouble. The ship was damaged, but limping, and the rogue waves finished her off.
Fitz was built when load limits were at a specific number. The load limits were increased, I believe more than once. Each increase of load limit meant the boat sat lower in the water. The profit motive/greed sank the Fitz, it had to carry loads it hadn’t been designed to carry, which it did successfully, until it had to do it in an excessively heavy a gale.
This comment is about a post 8 months ago, the Edmund Fitzgerald. I have only seen two videos about the Fitz, so I know so little compared to some folks. I have never heard them discuss is it possible to intentionally or not, overload the ship, with greater than what is being reported. Of course how much material can be known by how shallow or deep the boat sits in the water. I can imagine greed allowing for an overloaded ship. They must have expected some adverse weather. I can't imagine not planning for adverse weather. I don't know if ships can have an alternate destination for weather like airplanes. Like if when the weather got bad, point towards a coast and try to get it out of the wind and into a bay.
@@thomastucker5686the great lakes freeze over in the winter to the point no boats can travel. November when the ship sank is the last month you can really do anything on the lakes. So they do try to get as much as possible
Always appreciate coverage of the Great Lakes, you've definitely upped your game, well done! It's still crazy seeing the Arthur M. Anderson in service, I got some beautiful footage when she passed Mackinaw. Whitefish Point is really pretty and it sucks seeing how close to safety the Fitzgerald was
Thanks, I really appreciate that
"brick immortar," has another great video on this... another great channel. This channel is top top quality too.
The quality of your information and storytelling is unmatched! Super informative and entertaining to watch thank you!! Also huge respect for redoing the video, we'll watch this one too no worries HAHA 🖤
Amazing that after all these years, the Fitz is still talked about so vigorously. One thing not mentioned about the shoal grounding theory is Captain Cooper's statement that he got a call from McSorley not long after the Fitz passed over Six Fathom, stating that he had 'a fence rail down, a starboard list, and a couple of vents missing'. Remember, this was not long after passing through Six Fathom shoal. That would make it seem that SOMETHING happened as they passed over the area. Just my humble opinion.
Been watching for about a year and am always entertained and learning something here. I’ll always be a fan coming to watch. Keep it up.
Thanks. That means a lot to hear from someone who's been around since the start
Thank you for doing such an excellent job on this video. The research you did for this video actually produced some information as well as photographs and home movies I had never seen before. Not many people admit when they could have done better. You did. Rock on!
I have watched several videos on this subject and I think that Yours is one of the most detailed one. It was a pleasure to watch!
Thanks, I really appreciate that 👍🏻
You really should talk to Captain Darrell Walton about the Big Fitz" he is also an expert on great lakes shipping
I strongly believe that a rogue wave got her, since the bridge visor is smashed down, she literally vanished in an instant, and there was another ship like her that stayed afloat for a while after breaking up.
The wind and waves where coming behind south east direction.
If you look at the bow you’ll see the visor around the windows.
We know that there was reports of rogue waves. The steel visor around the windows is bent down further; like a Ruffles chip. She got bowed by one of the waves and the second one coming on she went straight in to and to the bottom, her bow strikes the bottom under propulsion; the stern breaks off from the stress.
basically, yeah that's the waves doing her in. bad hatches are another, wet shifting cargo causing the list. A heavy bow can cause hogging over the crest of a wave and that explains the broken railing. Then come the three witches. Bow in a trough, stern raised up, and the second wave sends her nose to the bottom. I think the sinking really came as a shock it was so fast.
The way you handled the situation, challenged yourself and made a great video is admirable and appreciated
Thanks
It could very well be a combination of a few of the theories. I've been in a big storm on Superior on an oil tanker. The 3 sisters were massive waves.
This is the most impressive and informative description about the Edmond Fitzgerald that I have yet found. Thankyou and most excellent!
Dude this was a great vid!!!
Thanks 👌🏻
@@waterlinestories absolutely!!!!
From what I have heard is that there were gaps between the bottom plates and the steel beams in the bottom of the Fitz. They had done a temporary fix by putting steel plates in the gaps. Years later there were sheets of steel sitting in the tall grasses at Frasier Shipyard marked "Edmund Fitzgerald" The theory being the Fitz was going to be undergoing major work at the end of the season
Hull stiffeners is what your referring to... I wonder what ever became of them ?
the 3 sisters drove the ship down, as the fist wave ran up her deck it drove the bow down, then the second wave lifted the stern and the screws just drove her to the bottom with the ship being longer then the depth when the bow hit bottom the stern broke off the center of the ship just desinagrated. Cpt Cooper said they were the biggest waves he had ever seen. Thanks for the video. 💚💙👍👍👏👏👏
I know they say 3 sisters but the captain of the Anderson said two rouge waves and huge up to 50 ft high and he knew those two waves heading towards the Fitz would do her in with the list ice build up from freezing rain they said they never found proof that it scraped the reef but being so heavy with a list and even the normal seas were up around 20 footers but he said when he did his interview when it happened that those two rouge waves were massive took her down fast makes most sense and he was right there why they didn't listen to him more when a very experienced captain says he was hit by these waves and they were heading towards a ship already having trouble he knew what happened I've been on Superior and it's beautiful on the water and it can change so fast or we would get hit by a big roller we called them they come out of nowhere and Superior is famous for its big rollers even in Summer time the water is a wake up when you jump in so cold they say most of the crew are still in their ship and the cold prevents them from floating up and keeps them in almost same condition even now so many years ago so bad but sorry got off topic but agree with you and captain from Anderson that those waves were the finishing swamping it rip
I am out of breath reading this.....punctuation?!?! 😊
@@johnphillips4342 sorry.. 😎
I think there is a culprit not mentioned. Prior to loading, the ship was inspected by the Coast Guard. Damage to the coatings was found, (the raised areas surrounding the cargo holds that the hatch covers sit on and are clamped over.) Despite this damage,(which would allow water to enter the hold between the hatch cover and the deck plating if waves flowed over the deck) the inspector passed the ship, with the agreement that this damage would be repaired during the winter lay up. However the storm nixxed that and the ship sank.
If the inspector had done his job, the Fitzjerald wouldn't have been there and wouldn't have sunk. So the big factor and the 7th cause was the Coast Guard Inspection, and the CG not doing their job, which was to keep the crew out of danger.
Thank you for revisiting this.
Well researched and presented.
Again you keep upping your game brother - loving your work! You have a mature and knowledgeable voice that’s perfect for this content
Thanks, I really appreciate that
Excellent presentation! Easy to follow, new facts and those previously known, a host who allowed us to enjoy the video with his comments... 10 out of 10.
Great episode! It takes a real man to admit and correct his own mistakes. 👍
I have really enjoyed watching Waterline Stories, now hearing the integrity of production I will definitely continue watching.
Love your videos, keep up the good work
Thanks for showing the hull lay-up. Good to see the inside structure-
My cousin was on Fitz, and my other cousin was on the ship behind it . Never saw it go down .
I'm so sorry...what a terrible impact on your family. May I ask which crew member he was? And did your other cousin continue to sail?
Head orsman james Pratt. My other cousin paul locks sailed for 4 more years .
This video is a benchmark in objective research. Kudos for your efforts, and a brilliant presentation. Thought provoking to say the least!
Thanks, I really appreciate that. 👍🏻
What a tragic story very well explained good video as always
Love the content. Truly appreciate your honesty and redoing a well thought out video. Our beloved Edmund Fitzgerald deserved this, thank you
former great lakes sailor here...and this a good job on this vidieo...
This was brilliant and very informative. Even with all of the stuff I have read and watched over the years, there was still a bunch of things in here that I have never seen before. You do magnificent work, and I look forward to watching more of your videos.
This channel is The Gentleman of youtube channels
Thanks , I'll take that!
Excellent analysis mate - keep up the good work!
👌🏻
As someone who is from Michigan and fascinated by shipwrecks, it always crazy to think about how nasty these lakes can get. I dont think people outside of the greatlakes region realizes how absolutely insane the waves and weather can get on the great lakes. Its like the north or bering sea's.
You definitely learn to respect the lakes. I'm also from Michigan
I live on Lake Ontario, right where it joins the St. Lawrence River, and we're only about four or five miles from the U.S. shore with a large island in between, so we're pretty protected. But right past that, the lake opens right up, so we still get some wild waves sometimes. I remember swimming at the beach one day, and a wave came up that was well over my head, and just looked up at it as it slammed me down. I can't comprehend what the weather on the larger lakes, especially Superior, would be like. It never occured to me growing up that not being able to see the opposite shore was anything unusual...the lake was just the lake.
Michigander here. Lake Superior is scary in the winter. It looks like the North Sea.
@@Xenophon1 oh yeah, it's nice to watch from shore. Not from the lake
Mad respect for the re-do!!
A quality creator. Superior is a beautiful lake, I recommend a visit if you have the means. It's interesting to note that diving to the wreck is no longer allowed. Lax maintenance is my guess but without further information it is impossible to verify, whatever the cause.
Desecration of the dead & trophy-hunters are appropriately why you can't dive the EF.
I live in Minnesota & spend 1/2 my summers camping up near Tofte, MN. Lake Superior is BEAUTIFUL in calm weather!!
Yep. A single cause didn't sink the ship. It would have been multiple problems culminating in a catastrophic event. Driving her fast to out run the storm and get ahead of the other ship, probably began the cascade of events. She didn't hit any shoal, just hitting waves at 5 or 6 knots faster than the other ship was all it took as the wind began shifting 180 degrees and the seas state became larger and more confused.
The first indication of trouble was when they observed damage to deck fittings from wave action and were taking on water to the extent that they had both pumps running. That simple bit of information was the death knell.... Later they begin to lose radar and electronics. They developed a list which indicates that the pumps are not keeping up with water ingress, or that the bilge piping/bilgecocks/strainers were malfunctioning and some areas could not be pumped. The fact she began taking water on in such heavy seas doomed her. Any ship that begins taking on water in heavy seas is now in a countdown to destruction. It doesn't get better. It only gets worse until catastrophe.
The most interesting and persuasive theory on here and you don't even mention the design issues, overloading, and delayed maintenance that may have already had the ship taking on water before McSorley decided to kick the Fitz into high gear. All of these issue would have made it even more susceptible. McSorley knew his ship well (a deathtrap in these conditions), but I think your statement on the seas becoming larger and more confused is the most plausible theory. I'm pretty sure waves get much bigger when they come near shore and the shallow shoal area might have cause the waves to be unusually large. With the state of the ship verified as poor it might be worth someone modelling what the wave might have been like over the shoal.
My theory is that the faulty welds combined with missing vent covers as well as being slightly overloaded caused this catastrophe. Had the ship been filled to capacity and not more the Fitzgerald might have survived that storm. Why the faulty welds weren't repaired is mind blowing, due to the fact that those welds are below the surface of the water.
I live in Superior, the Arthur Anderson is getting ready to leave winter lay up for another season. It is cool to walk down on the ship yards and see the history first hand.
The wreck needs to be dived on again. The new technology will certainly answer sinking theory 1-5. There is also a body on the lake bottom that was never recovered.
The family dont want it recovered. when Fred Shannon dived on the wreck back in the '90s or 2000s, whenever the last expedition to the wreck was, and filmed the body, he showed it to the US Coast guard the Canadian Coast guard and Oglebay Norton. They chose not to retrieve it at the request of the families who wanted it left down there. To my knowledge the families didn't even request to view the footage. It is a person laying on the seafloor with debris on top of them, wearing a cork style life jacket. He is located somewhere just off the starboard bow pinned under debris on the lake floor
@@mikeprimm4077 I have seen the photos. They can leave their loved ones there. If there is a way to definitively determine what happened that led to the sinking should be explored.
How will they investigate the shoal theory with two hundred feet of midsection completely obliterated?
@@br-v388 high speed computer simulation and AI.
@mikeprimm4077 I believe there were other bodies in state room and in forward steering pilot house.. I think they should bring them up and identify but families don't want that.
Biggest clue is there was no mayday call. From one wave to the next she was gone. I think she split in half on the surface and plunged to the bottom in a second. Keel welds and possible overloading.
Splinting in half on the surface doesn't fit the evidence. The two halves are to close together on the bottom to have split on the surface. The would have sunk at different speeds and ended up pointed in different directions and father apart.
eyyyyyyyyy always love a video drop from you boss, lets GOOOOOO
Thank you for your integrity. That's something that's hard to find nowadays!!
👍🏻
There is a video on youtube of a Turkish vessel that is very similar to this. They are in bad conditions and the front of the boat is hanging in the air and snaps in half
Yup, lots more documentation and evidence of fatigue type hull failures now especially in colder temperatures.
Soooo rare for someone to have the humility of character for them to make a 100% transparent reassessment of an entire video, remove it, outline what they didn't get exactly right and give credit to providers of new data, even crediting lowly viewers/subscribers, phew!! The highest honor I can give is that I fall asleep to your narrative, alough I always rewatch what I missed!! You are a consummate professional. Thank you 😊
It’s the quality of the hull itself that was the primary problem. Several related ships all broke their backs in similar storms, all due to the relatively poor quality of iron used to make their hulls. This is almost certainly what actually sank the EF, but poor deck management and back luck with waves no doubt put them in such a fateful position.
Yup, lots more documentation and evidence of fatigue type hull failures now especially in colder temperatures.
Which related vessels would those be? The Fitz' only sister ship, the Arthur B Homer was laid up and scrapped due to economic reasons, not structural problems. The Herbert C. Jackson was built by GLEW with the same steel and construction techniques and sails to this day.
I’ve heard that also: poor quality of iron combined with low temperatures
@@br-v388 The Herbert C. Jackson is 40 feet shorter and so was not subject to the same stresses. The Arthur B Homer was lengthened in 1975 and the Fitzgerald had similar plans for early 1976. A hidden "ecoomic" factor one could imagine for such a short return on their investment in the Homer must have been the fear of the possibility of a repeat disaster. I don't know of any other directly related ships.
New subscriber. I really enjoy your videos. Very informative. I was in Sault Ste. Marie the day and night of the storm that took the Fitz.(just a few miles from where she sank) I have never seen a storm like that storm. It blew out hotel windows and toppled trees all over the city.
Incredible that you remember that storm. Must have been something to see. Welcome aboard 👍🏻
@@waterlinestories the next day, when the news reports came out, we were aghast that the Mighty Fitz was gone. Lake Superior is treacherous in November.
Two hull sections says catestrophic failure of the keel and gunnles, allowing for no mayday call, essentially turned the EF into a submarine. If the life boats were wrenched away from their stations, we're talking seconds to where the bridge was completely submurged at speed.
I am by no means an expert, more of an extreme fascination because of Gordon Lightfoot’s haunting song. I remember when it sank, along with Harry Reasoner’s reporting. If I had to wager a guess, I’d say it was a combination of things. Literally and figuratively it was the perfect storm. The keel issue wasn’t something I was totally unaware of. The railing being down is an indication of flexing of the ship. The fact that it appears it stayed down to indicates the ship was fatally broken. The Three Sisters as it’s described finished off the great ship and pushed them under. No bodies, only pieces of wrenched away life boats and jackets. It’s anybody’s guess as to what happened. We do know that whatever happened to the ship, it was swift and overwhelming. It just disappeared from the Anderson’s radar. Everything started out so normally and within 24 hours dissolved into a great mystery. I dare say unless someone is allowed to go down and thoroughly investigate the rack, the hatches that they can at least see the ends of the bow and the sterns keel it’s, it’s really hard to say. Not to minimize either of these events, but will have to put it up there with JFK‘s assassination, and the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald. No one seems to really have all the answers. Great video I can’t thank you enough.
I subscribe to the theory that the lack of suitable freeboard made her vulnerable to large wave action. She was in one of the worst parts of the entire Great Lakes for waves as the shorelines of the the US and Canada are known to cause deflection creating inconsistent wavelengths, standing waves and additive wave heights as one piles onto another from all directions. All of this could cause a low riding boat to be easily swamped. She would take on more and more water - the weight of which could cause severe hogging. Given her length and the depth of the water, if she took on a load of water that pitched forward and caused her bow to dive, her bow could have plowed into the bottom in seconds while her stern was still on the surface pushing forward at full steam. All these combined forces could have easily caused her to break and for her center section to disintegrate. Additionally, just as an uneven loading at pier side can break her keel, thousands of tons of water piling up on either her bow or stern could do the same.
The state room on that ship was spectacular and the guests cabins too so plush and luxurious
I feel like it’s probably a combo of everything. Many tragedies are perfect storms of mistakes, negligence, and environmental realities.
Disaster are seldom the result of single factor, generally they're the perfect allignment of several factors.
Swiss Cheese theory and such.
Best video of info on the Big Fitz I've seen yet, thank ya bud
Thanks mate 👌🏻
Having worked in the oil industry for almost 25 years (only 4 years offshore) my experience is disasters tend to be caused by a multiplying effect. Generally systems are designed to cope with several issues but every now and then you will get more that can be planned for without crazy expenditure and many people watching these videos will know companies cut corners often because of government regulation. It's always the little guys that get screwed.
Once again, very nice vid.
I was in the Navy overseas when she went down They rang 3 bells in memory.of the 29 sailors
Did you watch the documentary of the captain of the Arthur m Anderson's opinion on what happened? His makes perfect sense. Also they did find a body but deleted or edited the original video out of respect for the families.
The fact that the vessel was found in two pieces suggests that faulted construction (welds) and extreme weather were to blame .. though this is only an opinion.
Yup, lots more documentation and evidence of fatigue type hull failures now especially in colder temperatures.
We live on the waterway the Edmund Fitzgerald travelled on. Years ago I was out near the lake, and the weather was very cold and windy, and the waves were really high. I remember thinking how glad I wasn't out on the water that night. Turns out that day was the anniversary (30th, I think) of the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald and the weather conditions were identical to the ones on the night the ship sank.
Sometimes when it's quiet you can hear the lake freighter horns as they pass by. I'm always reminded of the Edmund Fitzgerald whenever I hear one.
Sort of related: There's a Simpsons episode where Bart gets a Mr. Microphone type of gift for his birthday from Homer, and at one point Homer is singing "Convoy," but they actually wanted him to sing "The Ballad of the Edmund Fitzgerald." The reason he didn't was because they couldn't get the rights to the song, because Gordon Lightfoot gave them to the families of the Edmund Fitzgerald's crew.
What has always terrified me is hearing the howling winds as the captain of the Arthur Anderson speaks to Captain McSorley - terrifying. I’m still convinced of the rogue wave theory since the AA captain reported them and they been proven fairly recently as a real terrible possibility…it would have turned her over and sunk her in minutes as it seems to have done…
7th theory: Gordon Lightfoot wrote a song and sank the ship in order to get a hit record.
It has always seemed like it was hushed up and closed off in a hurry which to me only means one thing.....money!
I like the way the bridge is at the front. Looks distictive.
All the theories combined seem a logical explanation, the many factors compounded ontop of eachother until the ships structural integrity catastrophically failed.
Just found your channel........outstanding content 👏👏SUBSCRIBED
Thanks, I really appreciate that