Thank you for the outstanding explanation of the work and heat hardening of the dissimiliar metals of the brass frame C&B revolvers. I'm going to save this link and give it to everyone who asks about it. I've been shooting cap and ball revolvers since I was 15 (damn, going on 40 years now!) And I've learned a lot about quality, loads, durability, etc. I've owned several others, but right now I have 6 of them that work, and 2 that are parts guns. I'm sure it's no surprise that the parts guns are Pietta brass frame 1851 .44's. They wont even fire anymore because of excessive cylinder movement as described in your video. They each lasted somewhere between 500-700 rounds before they were no longer usable. But my very first C&B revolver that my father gave me for Christmas when I was 15 was an Armi San Marco (CVA branded/imported) 1858 Remington Army .44. I've shot it thousands of times over the years and I've had to replace just about everything except the frame, barrel and cylinder. And although it looks like it's 40 years old and has been fired thousands of times it still runs and shoots well. I don't shoot it often anymore because being a gift from my father it means a lot to me and ASM parts are no longer available, so I shoot my 5" Pietta and 8" Uberti instead. My brass frame .36, a Pietta Griswold model, shoots very well, has seen over 500 shots and doesn't show any signs of shooting loose. But my 2 brass .44's just didn't hold up. I don't know how it will hold up long term but I believe my Pietta .36 Griswold, with a frame as large as a Pietta 1851 .44, will hold up much longer than its big brother did. It was disappointing when my 5" 1851 .44 sh!t the bed because I did a lot of work to it. I really like the 1860 Army grip so I bought an ASM/CVA 1860 Army for parts that needed internals but are no longer available. So I did a LOT of fitting, filing and polishing on the gripframe and triggerguard, and also a lot of filing and sanding of the wooden grips to make them fit onmy 5" 1851. It was my favorite C&B revolver for looks and feel, and now it's nothing more than a paperweight. My recommendation is similar to yours. Brass framed guns are OK for your first C&B to see if you like them and not spend more money on something you might not like. But if you decide you like making smoke, buy once/cry once. Get a steel frame that as long as you treat it well it will keep on working. And when small internals break, and if you shoot them any amount they definitely will break, it's easy enough to replace them and keep it running. In fact, I'd recommend keeping a spare hand/spring assy, trigger, bolt, trigger/bolt spring and a set of nipples on hand.
I have a .44 pietta And its not been shot much I wanted to get a conversion cylinder to .45longcolt I dont intend to fire it, but it would be a good extra gun when camping, Ive had concerns about it blowing up, but the cylinder & barrel is whats taking all the pressure, Do you think i should worry? If it stretches i got it for free and the cylinder i buy would be able to be reused on other guns i may buy later
Finally got my hands on some percussion caps. I've been picking up cap and ball revolver since the beginning of this year taking it for granted that I'd be able to get all the stuff that goes with it!
Same. I bought my first brass frame 1851 Navy in .36 last month and I'm charging it with 21grains of triple 7 fffg and it shoots point of aim at 30 yards. I feel like I could load about 25 or maybe more after this.
I have a brass frame .36 caliber 1851 Navy, MOFRA or EuroManufacture (double diamonds) manufactured in 1972. I wouldn't be surprised if it is one of those "soft" brass frames, but it is still tight, so I don't think it was fired much before I got it in 2005-ish. I use 20 grains of 3F. I think it'll outlast me. If not, then it'll become a wall hangar.
I use Brasso on my brass fames and they look like a mirror. Of course, some like the dull patina. To each their own. I remember poring over those ads with the EMF black powder pistols at the back of gun magazines like it was yesterday. I bought my first BP pistol when I was 18 in 1975, EMF 1860 army brass frame .44 Army, $47 bucks through the mail It was a thrill to be able to buy a real functioning pistol through the mail. Yes, the quality was pretty rough, but I will say that Pietta has come a LONG way in quality since then. Thanks Blackie.
good info, thanks! i know the Henry .22, golden boys have a steel frame with a "brasslite" receiver cover. i THINK the big boy brass are the same but idk for sure, since i dont own one.
What about conversion cylinders? I just bought a Pieta 1851 navy (steel frame) 36cal and ordered a 38 conversion cyl for it. I have a 51 navy Euroarms (with pieta markings) mid 70s and if the conversion cylinder fits hope to use it on that too, or get another for it. Cowboy loads on the low side is my plan. Howell the maker of the cylinders does not recommend using them with brass frame, but I suspect it is for liability. The recommended bullet is 38 spl hollow base wad cutter. The bullet is .358 while the bore is 375. It seems to me if done right I can get a safe set up. I do not see why the brass frame would be less safe with low pressure cartridges, than it is with cap and ball on a normal charge. I hope to do Cowboy Action but don't have over $1000.00 to spend on revolvers, and here in Mass they have a list so none of the $500.00 revolvers can be purchased in Mass. So setting these up seems to be a fair alternative. Shooting cap and ball doesn.t seem like it would be all that reliable for speed shooting! What are your thoughts? Will I shoot my eye out kid? I hear by release you from any liability for any advise :) Thanks, Dana
I have a Henry Golden boy in 45LC. I have fired Underwood Ammo hardcast semi wadcutters through that thing. That gun can take a punch, trust me, the alloy is fine.
I saw a Traditions 1851 Navy .44 Ready Pak for $350-400 in my lgs. I am seriously debating buying it and getting a conversion cylinder for it. Is that a bad idea? It's such a beautiful gun, but I'm not big into black powder, I like the idea of being able to do both.
I have a mid seventies REI brass Remington new army. Very poor quality revolver fit and finish wise, but the frame is still in great shape. I would think only using very heavy loads constantly might wear the rear frame behind the cylinder, but I doubt it. It would take forever to cause it. The new Piettas and Uberties are very well made. Occasional heavy loads are not going to effect these well made revolvers.
The brass used by Uberti in it's 1860 Henry rifle is real brass where as the so called brass this American new Henry company uses is a different alloy. The brass receiver on an American Henry Big Boy looks completely different then the brass used on my Uberti 1860 Henry. Maybe both are alloys. Not 100% sure but the Uberti has that colour that one expects with brass where as the American Henry Big Boy doesn't look the same. The little 'Golden Boy" made by American Henry doesn't even use real brass but this stuff called 'brass lite' which seems like a plating over what appears to be something like aluminum. A Pietta Remington I have with a brass frame and a 12" barrel looks like real brass like my Uberti 1860. Both work quite well and have a lot of rounds pumped through them but i do not use hot loads in either.
To fix the cylinder/barrel gap on a brass frame is easy. Just pull the barrel off and the drill out the pin that holds the cylinder in the center and tap it so it can fit an allen set screw and then file down the part that the barrel wedge goes in toward the frame side and not the barrel. Then you can adjust the back pressure on the barrel wedge and reduce the cylinder gap. After the pin has work hardened itself it will eventually be set and will work great.
Another great Vid Blackie! Here in England there aren't too many people with our interest, so its always good to watch your videos and educate myself. I already have a steel Pietta .44 Remington, but the brass ones look so nice! I would think a .36 in brass would have no stretching problems with that topstrap, So I'm going to place my order!
Blackie, I was an Old West reenactor, own Pieta and Uberti guns, my oldest is a Pieta Sheriff's model, made in 1971. I also have a matched pair (consecutive serial numbers), from 2007, 1851 Navy repros ! I am now very hard on my guns, and now (at almost 70), cannot walk without a stick, and can't drive anymore. I sure DO miss my active days, but since I moved to the Western Slopes of the Rockies, I could never find anyone to "play" with!
I have an old 36 armi san marco brass frame since the 90s, I had to cut back the frame n do all the stuff to reset it from cylinder hamering. It seems to have work hardened the backplate and I keep the cylinder gap tight and it has worked fine for a while now. It seems like its the cylinder flying back smacking the frame is the biggest problem at least on my gun
You won't stretch , and batter them if you don't overload them. Alot of people always load the max charge. I have a 51 navy 44, and 20, to 25 grs. Of powder is the best , anything more is just wasted powder, and abuses the gun. Also I find heavier loads decrease accuracy.
@@humansvd3269 yes 25 is perfectly safe, but doesn’t pack much power. I think to even approach a modern weak .38 special power, you’d need around 30 grains.
When I was kid/teen brass frame black powder the old gen then had a nick name "Pietta Crap"...As I matured I kept that in mind, Boy have I missed out. Now at 52 I am learning that yes the early repros for reenactments should have been kept for just that. Well and the idiots running hot loads in them, well here is their sign. A $49 Cap and ball blank shooter of 1960 is nowhere near my Pietta Sheriff of 2017,
Look at the stress/strain curve, for material to permanently deform it has to go past a certain point from plastic deformation to inelastic. No matter how many times you hit a material, if it does not go past the plastic point it will always return to original form. It would be easy for someone with a basic materials lab to find out at what loading a brass frame takes inelastic force and then people would know what level to stay under
My first BP pistol was a brass frame 1860 Army I bought in 1989. I fired about 1000 rounds through it using 30 grs of 3F with a .451 ball. One day it was not striking the caps, upon review I found the frame stretched , after that I only bought steel framed revolvers.
It' good to know Your openion about that brass. I don't like to do off-topic here. But I like to know what You think about INOX steel. Love Your black powder seriess...
In 1956, CVA 44 Navy with accessories, a bag of shot and a pound of powder cost 42.00. Made in Spain built out of gun mettle not scrap brass. Lasted till 1970 when i gave it too a new shooter. Needed a new wedge and main spring. Thousands of rounds no cracks.
I have a trick for everyone. I found this out by accident. I nickel plated a 58 brass Remington. Nickel plating at home is very very eazy. All you need is white vinegar and a battery . when done nickel plating your part. Dip it in some Cold blue. For just a few seconds. Take out to dry. And it will look just like ubertis and pietta color case hardening.. So if you are some one like me how hates the brass look but always end up with brass framed guns. I now knickel plate the brass and colorcase it with cooled blue. It works so well that all my friends thought I sold off all my brass frame... I might do a video on it
3 года назад+1
Cool man! I have done some nickel plating with 99% nickel welding rods (flux scraped off), submerged in vinegar and salt solution, with the rods attached to an old cell phone charger. The rod that bubbles is the negative side. That is the side you connect the part you want plated. So easy! I should try that! Thanks!
Blackie. Back in the early 80s I worked for a man who was a collector of cival war arms and he showed me a brass frame remington style revolver that had been converted to a 44 calibre cartridge. We never fired it if course but a 44 special cartridge would fit the chambers. There was no loading gate or ejector. I've told other so called experts in forums about it and been called a liar more than once but I'm figuring you will know about such conversation weapons if that era. Could you maybe inform us on those things ?
We constantly see comments on FB BP groups with guys telling newbies never buy a cheap brass frame because they will stretch. My first BP revolver was a cheap brass frame. I shot the crap out of it and it's still a good gun. So, the myth of the crappy brass frames is still out there. Thank you Blackie for making this video. It definitely cleared the air. Now that I've been into BP shooting for quite a while I do prefer steel frames.
I’ve got a “brass” frame’51 I bought from cabelas 30 years ago… it’s still a shooter… it’s got a little headspace but not bad… my daughter has it now and still shooting it… it’s still on the money for quick action on rabbits and other varmints…
Haven’t shot my brass frame yet. I chipped the wedge badly cause when I first got it the manual said to take it apart and clean factory residue out. I put the wedge back in but I’ve heard so many barrel flying stories lol. Not sure if it’s in secure enough?So I have been hesitant to shoot it.
I love you show and I think you said you was in the military and I thank you for your service the question I have for you do you know where you can get oversized grip for 1858 Remington revolver Thank you
Thanks for the education on the issue of brass frames. I just bought a brass frame Pietta 1851 sheriff's model in .36 caliber and am very happy with the build quality. So much so I bought another Pietta all steel 1860 sheriff's model to pair with my '51. I feel much better about my brasser and will shoot it to my heart's content. Thanks for all you do to help us get educated on these fine revolvers!
Thank you very much for a most complete review of the history and the metallurgy involved. I now know the difference and I would be shooting conicals if I ever get around to cap and ball revolvers.
Have owned many percussion revolvers of all makes, only once did I find a problem. It was a brass San Marco reproduction 1851. Traded for it used. It was abused heavily. The previous owner shoot very heavy loads constantly. It became sloppy loose. Was able to fix it but soon retired it to a wall hanger .
Always wondered if the brass alloy used in todays brass guns wasnt at least a little bit better. Going from 500 rounds to 2000 rounds tells the whole story. Heck, after 2000rnds, get a steel frame for it and brass plate it lol.
I have the same gun you showed in this video; a brass framed 1851 in .44 caliber. Mine is made by Pietta, and is of very recent manufacture. I don't think the 'brass' frame is actually brass at all. I think it is some kind of silicon bronze. I had an identical one that I bought in the late 90s, and that was definitely brass. These newer ones seem to be different, and are probably a lot stronger than the older ones.
My first BP gun was an 1858 Remington Navy in .36 cal. I shot the piss outta that revolver and had zero issues. My second one though was an 1858 New Model Army with a brass frame in .44 cal. I shot it with 30grn Pyrodex pre-formed pellets and round ball ( I didn't know any better, it was a long time ago). The frame bent so bad after a few cylinders that the cylinder would no longer rotate. I gave it away to my cousin and it sits above his fireplace on the mantle. I will never buy a brass frame again. Lesson learned.
Nice video.... I just bought a 1850 Army... 8 inch barrel Traditri0ons .... actually made by Pietta, I think..... I am just playing with it atm..... getting used to the action and stuff...... I have some bullets... balls... and 30 grain pyrodex pellets and some wads....... got some bore buttter too..... cant find the caps heh This is my first BP pistol.... I have shot for my whole life but this is new to me.... Am I on the right track???? and I am [-retty sure this takes Number 9 caps right?
Why do people speculate this without any practical gunsmithing Experience? Brass Frames do not stretch… The Arbor doesn’t beat inwards ever. What actually happens is the ratchet on the back of the steel cylinder beats the recoil ring and brass being malleable just moves away and what appears to look like a wave. If you take the time to pull a cylinder out of one and look at the recoil ring you will see what I’m talking about. But without taking the gun apart, if you cock it slowly you will see the cylinder Move forward and back as the ratchet goes over the waves in the recoil ring. I’ve been professionally working on these guns for 35 years and I’ve seen thousands.
Blackie is there a shoot-loose issue with the remington brass 1858 or 63 pocket revolvers. Or just colt revolvers ? I was not sure if the full frame stops this from occurring. Thank you for your time.
The brass frame original Remington Civil War era 1858 did exist, because I see them listed. but I haven’t seen a .44 caliber brass frame original Remington. The pistols with a brass frame aren’t listed with “brass” in the title.
I agree I've shot the crap out of my 1851 navy sheriff brass I love it it's my only black powder gun had it about 5 years still shoots awesome I just underload it !!
Thanks for mentioning the problem with conicals. I shoot a steel frame Pietta '58 Remington and passed on purchasing conicals recently because I suspected they'd lead to problems with the rammer/linkage/lever. Just the other day I saw a penetration/expansion/accuracy test side by side with roundballs on another channel and the conicals don't seem worth it anywho.
Just got my first brass BP. That explains why every question on these guns yield two different answers. Dad grew up hunting with BP in the 50s and uncle did the reenactments 60s-80s. Never considered the centennial reenactor boom lowering quality. Now it all makes sense. thank you.
hrm.. could you not mill down the end of the dowel? and then fill in the inside of the wedge groove? to re-tighten up that gap to .005"? i've shot 400 round's so far out of mine at 30 grains and she's still at .005"
My old brasser 51 chambered in 44 is slicker then owl sh!t. I through one of my ol' famous action jobs on her and her action feels like breaking glass. You may not believe it but that ol vrasser will group better then Ny modern gun iv ever shot
Says in the manual no conical in brass and 5gr less powder than steel for round in my brass I just go by the manual and have no issues no thousands of rounds but my "brass" is just as tight as my steel 🤔 not too worried just shoot hot loads or conical in my steel frames 👍 great video!
I got an 1851 London and I regret it. That steel grip will rust if you just look at it wrong. I’ll be ordering nickel coated brass grips someday soon. I still prefer a steel frame, but brass grips are best.
So it looks to me that these Italian gun nickel plate there frames and dip them in cold blue and that's how they get there color case hardening look. So you could do this on a brass frame gun and it works perfectly. My brass frame 1860 looks steel frame
My Pietta '51 brass Navy in .44 works great. I have had it for about 20 years. It still shoots to point of aim at about 25 yards. Don't be afraid to shoot one if you can find it.
Ok Blackie got a 1979 44 brass frame I got told it was told it was pietta also got a 44 barrel told it was pietta no marks to be sure on either one worried about fittment and allignment any suggestions its not a perfect fit may have to make a snake shot shooter out of it unless you can tell me how to check its safe to shoot round balls
Yup yup nice my first was .44 Sheriff in the brass... That was 2014 For me it is a 2010 make I got it used then...2023 I still shoot it keep in mind 20 grains & and round ball only..
Very good discussion. One of the best on youtube. The original southern guns were made of “bell metal”. Actually bronze of 80% copper and 20% tin. This alloy was designed to ring true but was also almost ideal for gun frames as it compared very well to the period “steel” frames which were actually malleable iron and not steel at all. In 1860 and even today bronze is more costly than steel. In the 1960’s cheap guns had brass frames. Brass is about 85% copper and 15% zinc. But alloys vary. Brass is physically weaker than bronze but has greater elasticity. It is “springy”. Gun metal in its various alloys is bronze, not brass. It contains traces of lead and phosphorous to improve machining quality. It compares well to mild steel in every respect except cost. Some guns of the 70’s had brass frames. These are the ones that “stretch”. There were also bronze frames. They dont stretch. The frame does not stretch per se. The base pin may be pulled from the threads in the frame if poorly threaded with too fine a pitch of thread. Non-ferrous alloys require the use of coarser threads than iron/mild steel. Most “end shake” which is the real effect of excessive loads in a brass frame is the cylinder mechanically battering the recoil ring in the frame. That ring like protrusion in the recoil shield that the hand protrudes through and that supports the rear of the cylinder. Poor initial fitting allows some end shake which simply progresses with time. You are correct the fixing this condition is costly. Well done.
Watched the video and you say that the golden boy rifle is the same alloy as the new brass looking frame revolvers today so was just wondering if you can shoot cartridges out of Henry and it the same material as the revolvers why can't you use a conversation cylinder in the brass looking frame revolvers just asking .
What’s your opinion on a brass frame 1851 ASM from the early 80’s? I have a ASM my dad put together from a kit somewhere between 80’ and 83’. It has barely been fired. But after recent examination, it definitely has a short arbor, and the wedge doesn’t fit right. I guess my question is, is it worth fixing, or should I just hang it on the wall?
I’m wondering the same thing. I just purchased an ASM made in 1979, it looks very well used but the fit of the cylinder seems to be perfect, much better than a modern Pietta.
I just watched your brass frame video earlier; it is good to know that the brass frames do hold up well, but you are still on a somewhat unspecified clock. Thanks for the insight, Blackie!
Great VID thats needed doing for a good while. 👍 Like you I've have and shoot both steel and brass revolvers ALOT like a whole LOT 🤣 Love em all, one fav is an 80s Era Richland Arms (ASM) 1858 IN .44. It's had 2 lifetimes of shooting for most folks thru it and still going strong. I load 20grn a wonder wad and hand cast roundball. Accurate Fun Reliable and Ugly, like big nose Kate 😄
Most of the "brass" framed guns used by the confederacy, were actually BRONZE, frame a much stronger alloy than brass, Brass is an alloy of copper and lead Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin
Oop's a big mistake in my post, Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc, not copper and lead. Bronze has been used for many things including weapons, brass is mainly considered decorative
Dear Blackie, Outstanding video, as always, Ihave been asking myself, where did the perccusion series went.. But here it is! More videos please:). Can You do an update on small leather bullet pouch, and review grip change between navy-army models (and is it worth it). Also, do You have in mind coming to Europe to do some classes? You just got new subscriber. Also, how to get to your patreon account. Best regards Blackie.
Love it. You gave the same reasons that I learned in my research. I have no practical experience with cap and ball revolvers. I want some but just don't have it. I remember those adds from the 80's! Great info on the stretching of metal. If I shot one out I do believe it will go on the mantel as a display cause man they are beautiful. It seems like a lot of this is common sense and the individual doing his research and gaining the knowledge. Of course that is a rarity now days.
I learned how to time a revolver using those old C&B revolvers from back in the days. ... Not that I like timing a revolver anymore.. lol but it helped me
EZ fix will be to take the arber out and thread it some more fit till you have the gap your looking for then lock-tight it back in place file threaded end of arber off to make it flush again
Thank you for the outstanding explanation of the work and heat hardening of the dissimiliar metals of the brass frame C&B revolvers. I'm going to save this link and give it to everyone who asks about it.
I've been shooting cap and ball revolvers since I was 15 (damn, going on 40 years now!) And I've learned a lot about quality, loads, durability, etc.
I've owned several others, but right now I have 6 of them that work, and 2 that are parts guns. I'm sure it's no surprise that the parts guns are Pietta brass frame 1851 .44's. They wont even fire anymore because of excessive cylinder movement as described in your video. They each lasted somewhere between 500-700 rounds before they were no longer usable.
But my very first C&B revolver that my father gave me for Christmas when I was 15 was an Armi San Marco (CVA branded/imported) 1858 Remington Army .44. I've shot it thousands of times over the years and I've had to replace just about everything except the frame, barrel and cylinder. And although it looks like it's 40 years old and has been fired thousands of times it still runs and shoots well. I don't shoot it often anymore because being a gift from my father it means a lot to me and ASM parts are no longer available, so I shoot my 5" Pietta and 8" Uberti instead.
My brass frame .36, a Pietta Griswold model, shoots very well, has seen over 500 shots and doesn't show any signs of shooting loose. But my 2 brass .44's just didn't hold up. I don't know how it will hold up long term but I believe my Pietta .36 Griswold, with a frame as large as a Pietta 1851 .44, will hold up much longer than its big brother did.
It was disappointing when my 5" 1851 .44 sh!t the bed because I did a lot of work to it. I really like the 1860 Army grip so I bought an ASM/CVA 1860 Army for parts that needed internals but are no longer available. So I did a LOT of fitting, filing and polishing on the gripframe and triggerguard, and also a lot of filing and sanding of the wooden grips to make them fit onmy 5" 1851. It was my favorite C&B revolver for looks and feel, and now it's nothing more than a paperweight.
My recommendation is similar to yours. Brass framed guns are OK for your first C&B to see if you like them and not spend more money on something you might not like. But if you decide you like making smoke, buy once/cry once. Get a steel frame that as long as you treat it well it will keep on working. And when small internals break, and if you shoot them any amount they definitely will break, it's easy enough to replace them and keep it running. In fact, I'd recommend keeping a spare hand/spring assy, trigger, bolt, trigger/bolt spring and a set of nipples on hand.
I have a .44 pietta
And its not been shot much
I wanted to get a conversion cylinder to .45longcolt
I dont intend to fire it, but it would be a good extra gun when camping,
Ive had concerns about it blowing up, but the cylinder & barrel is whats taking all the pressure,
Do you think i should worry?
If it stretches i got it for free and the cylinder i buy would be able to be reused on other guns i may buy later
Finally got my hands on some percussion caps.
I've been picking up cap and ball revolver since the beginning of this year taking it for granted that I'd be able to get all the stuff that goes with it!
This is literally the best explanation of frame stretching I have heard, thank you!
Same. I bought my first brass frame 1851 Navy in .36 last month and I'm charging it with 21grains of triple 7 fffg and it shoots point of aim at 30 yards. I feel like I could load about 25 or maybe more after this.
Great information Blackie. You answered many questions I had about modern brass frames.
I have a brass frame .36 caliber 1851 Navy, MOFRA or EuroManufacture (double diamonds) manufactured in 1972. I wouldn't be surprised if it is one of those "soft" brass frames, but it is still tight, so I don't think it was fired much before I got it in 2005-ish. I use 20 grains of 3F. I think it'll outlast me. If not, then it'll become a wall hangar.
Great video Blackie, recently purchased a Pietta Griswold so this was perfect timing.
You are the most detailed and informative of all the tubers out there and I learn something new everytime even after 50 yrs. Thank you.
thank you very much safe journeys to you
Awesome video sir thank you
I use Brasso on my brass fames and they look like a mirror. Of course, some like the dull patina. To each their own. I remember poring over those ads with the EMF black powder pistols at the back of gun magazines like it was yesterday. I bought my first BP pistol when I was 18 in 1975, EMF 1860 army brass frame .44 Army, $47 bucks through the mail It was a thrill to be able to buy a real functioning pistol through the mail. Yes, the quality was pretty rough, but I will say that Pietta has come a LONG way in quality since then. Thanks Blackie.
good info, thanks!
i know the Henry .22, golden boys have a steel frame with a "brasslite" receiver cover. i THINK the big boy brass are the same but idk for sure, since i dont own one.
What about conversion cylinders? I just bought a Pieta 1851 navy (steel frame) 36cal and ordered a 38 conversion cyl for it. I have a 51 navy Euroarms (with pieta markings) mid 70s and if the conversion cylinder fits hope to use it on that too, or get another for it. Cowboy loads on the low side is my plan. Howell the maker of the cylinders does not recommend using them with brass frame, but I suspect it is for liability. The recommended bullet is 38 spl hollow base wad cutter. The bullet is .358 while the bore is 375. It seems to me if done right I can get a safe set up. I do not see why the brass frame would be less safe with low pressure cartridges, than it is with cap and ball on a normal charge.
I hope to do Cowboy Action but don't have over $1000.00 to spend on revolvers, and here in Mass they have a list so none of the $500.00 revolvers can be purchased in Mass. So setting these up seems to be a fair alternative. Shooting cap and ball doesn.t seem like it would be all that reliable for speed shooting!
What are your thoughts? Will I shoot my eye out kid? I hear by release you from any liability for any advise :)
Thanks, Dana
Damn, this has been informative.
I have a Henry Golden boy in 45LC.
I have fired Underwood Ammo hardcast semi wadcutters through that thing. That gun can take a punch, trust me, the alloy is fine.
One thing we forget is that we will shoot more in one weekend than old-timer would in a lifetime . Ammo cost money ,they were frugal . M.B.
Thanks for the great video!
I saw a Traditions 1851 Navy .44 Ready Pak for $350-400 in my lgs. I am seriously debating buying it and getting a conversion cylinder for it. Is that a bad idea? It's such a beautiful gun, but I'm not big into black powder, I like the idea of being able to do both.
I have a mid seventies REI brass Remington new army. Very poor quality revolver fit and finish wise, but the frame is still in great shape. I would think only using very heavy loads constantly might wear the rear frame behind the cylinder, but I doubt it. It would take forever to cause it. The new Piettas and Uberties are very well made. Occasional heavy loads are not going to effect these well made revolvers.
The brass used by Uberti in it's 1860 Henry rifle is real brass where as the
so called brass this American new Henry company uses is a different
alloy. The brass receiver on an American Henry Big Boy looks completely
different then the brass used on my Uberti 1860 Henry. Maybe both
are alloys. Not 100% sure but the Uberti has that colour that one
expects with brass where as the American Henry Big Boy doesn't look the same.
The little 'Golden Boy" made by American Henry doesn't even use
real brass but this stuff called 'brass lite' which seems like a plating
over what appears to be something like aluminum.
A Pietta Remington I have with a brass frame and a 12" barrel
looks like real brass like my Uberti 1860. Both work quite well
and have a lot of rounds pumped through them but i do not
use hot loads in either.
To fix the cylinder/barrel gap on a brass frame is easy. Just pull the barrel off and the drill out the pin that holds the cylinder in the center and tap it so it can fit an allen set screw and then file down the part that the barrel wedge goes in toward the frame side and not the barrel. Then you can adjust the back pressure on the barrel wedge and reduce the cylinder gap. After the pin has work hardened itself it will eventually be set and will work great.
parts donor
And that is why I never buy brass frames
If I had to choose between a brass frame and a rock, I would rather have the rock.
@ ok
It just occurred to me that you might be serious. I'm your huckleberry.
Want to meet?
I accept. I live in TN. How are we going to do this?
@ forgive me sir for going to extremes, I am 61, an army vet with PTSD and other issues that make life a nightmare from time to time. I meant no harm.
Another great Vid Blackie! Here in England there aren't too many people with our interest, so its always good to watch your videos and educate myself. I already have a steel Pietta .44 Remington, but the brass ones look so nice! I would think a .36 in brass would have no stretching problems with that topstrap, So I'm going to place my order!
I don't know how many times I've watched this video. This is like sitting in on a cap and ball university lecture.
Blackie, I was an Old West reenactor, own Pieta and Uberti guns, my oldest is a Pieta Sheriff's model, made in 1971. I also have a matched pair (consecutive serial numbers), from 2007, 1851 Navy repros ! I am now very hard on my guns, and now (at almost 70), cannot walk without a stick, and can't drive anymore. I sure DO miss my active days, but since I moved to the Western Slopes of the Rockies, I could never find anyone to "play" with!
Hope you have been well,
That rocky mountain air sure smells like home
i got a 1851 brass maybe 10 years ago because brass looked nicer. due to a bank error, it ended up free :-)
Man, sounds like you lucked out on that
@@johnpogz9523 yep, think i bought the 1851, an ar15 lower and a 380 pistol
Nice video blackie, I'm gonna pull out my 1851 and use it a bit more, thanks!
Right on
I have an old 36 armi san marco brass frame since the 90s, I had to cut back the frame n do all the stuff to reset it from cylinder hamering. It seems to have work hardened the backplate and I keep the cylinder gap tight and it has worked fine for a while now. It seems like its the cylinder flying back smacking the frame is the biggest problem at least on my gun
Thank you again Mr. Blackie for the Brass frame wisdom.
I have 2 Rebel Colts and 1 Rebel Remington and I love them dearly.
You won't stretch , and batter them if you don't overload them. Alot of people always load the max charge. I have a 51 navy 44, and 20, to 25 grs. Of powder is the best , anything more is just wasted powder, and abuses the gun. Also I find heavier loads decrease accuracy.
So 25 is safe enough? I want one but I want to get the round fast enough for defensive purposes if I'm forced to use it.
@@humansvd3269 yes 25 is perfectly safe, but doesn’t pack much power. I think to even approach a modern weak .38 special power, you’d need around 30 grains.
When I was kid/teen brass frame black powder the old gen then had a nick name "Pietta Crap"...As I matured I kept that in mind, Boy have I missed out. Now at 52 I am learning that yes the early repros for reenactments should have been kept for just that. Well and the idiots running hot loads in them, well here is their sign. A $49 Cap and ball blank shooter of 1960 is nowhere near my Pietta Sheriff of 2017,
Look at the stress/strain curve, for material to permanently deform it has to go past a certain point from plastic deformation to inelastic. No matter how many times you hit a material, if it does not go past the plastic point it will always return to original form. It would be easy for someone with a basic materials lab to find out at what loading a brass frame takes inelastic force and then people would know what level to stay under
I am thinkin' a "brass" frame Remmie would be a delightful woods knock about gun.
Brass doesn't tarnish? Someone should tell the Navy....
My first BP pistol was a brass frame 1860 Army I bought in 1989. I fired about 1000 rounds through it using 30 grs of 3F with a .451 ball. One day it was not striking the caps, upon review I found the frame stretched , after that I only bought steel framed revolvers.
i was under the impression that it wasnt due to the lack of iron but the ease of machining the gunmetal/brass
Its entirely possible that both reasons are true.
It' good to know Your openion about that brass. I don't like to do off-topic here.
But I like to know what You think about INOX steel. Love Your black powder seriess...
Thats my question to!
Pieta Remington 1858 new army 44?
All i could find is the brass framed ones when i looked o.O
A Steel framed one will be my next BP pistol :D
“Blood-tight” thats really tight :0
In 1956, CVA 44 Navy with accessories, a bag of shot and a pound of powder cost 42.00. Made in Spain built out of gun mettle not scrap brass. Lasted till 1970 when i gave it too a new shooter. Needed a new wedge and main spring. Thousands of rounds no cracks.
I have a trick for everyone. I found this out by accident. I nickel plated a 58 brass Remington. Nickel plating at home is very very eazy. All you need is white vinegar and a battery . when done nickel plating your part. Dip it in some Cold blue. For just a few seconds. Take out to dry. And it will look just like ubertis and pietta color case hardening.. So if you are some one like me how hates the brass look but always end up with brass framed guns. I now knickel plate the brass and colorcase it with cooled blue. It works so well that all my friends thought I sold off all my brass frame... I might do a video on it
Cool man! I have done some nickel plating with 99% nickel welding rods (flux scraped off), submerged in vinegar and salt solution, with the rods attached to an old cell phone charger. The rod that bubbles is the negative side. That is the side you connect the part you want plated. So easy! I should try that! Thanks!
@ no problem give it a shot and let me know how it ended up
Yes did you make the video? If you nickel plate it,where does the nickel come from, the vinegar?this is an excellent idea
So did u make a video or written guide somewhere.
@@Puppy_Puppington yeah I have 2 videos on my channel
Blackie. Back in the early 80s I worked for a man who was a collector of cival war arms and he showed me a brass frame remington style revolver that had been converted to a 44 calibre cartridge. We never fired it if course but a 44 special cartridge would fit the chambers. There was no loading gate or ejector. I've told other so called experts in forums about it and been called a liar more than once but I'm figuring you will know about such conversation weapons if that era. Could you maybe inform us on those things ?
Sorry, no brass frames for me. They look cool but too soft.
We constantly see comments on FB BP groups with guys telling newbies never buy a cheap brass frame because they will stretch. My first BP revolver was a cheap brass frame. I shot the crap out of it and it's still a good gun. So, the myth of the crappy brass frames is still out there. Thank you Blackie for making this video. It definitely cleared the air. Now that I've been into BP shooting for quite a while I do prefer steel frames.
Mine too, I got a brass framed 51 frame with a .44 caliber dragoon/griswold style barrel. 100 dollars at a pawn shop lol
I’ve got a “brass” frame’51 I bought from cabelas 30 years ago… it’s still a shooter… it’s got a little headspace but not bad… my daughter has it now and still shooting it… it’s still on the money for quick action on rabbits and other varmints…
People still think metallurgy is the same as it was back in the dark ages or something
Haven’t shot my brass frame yet. I chipped the wedge badly cause when I first got it the manual said to take it apart and clean factory residue out. I put the wedge back in but I’ve heard so many barrel flying stories lol. Not sure if it’s in secure enough?So I have been hesitant to shoot it.
Well. Not if I want a conversion cylinder for low pressure rounds… don’t tell me that’s not true
I love you show and I think you said you was in the military and I thank you for your service the question I have for you do you know where you can get oversized grip for 1858 Remington revolver
Thank you
yes look at dixie gun works they will have replacement blanks they will be a bit over side so you can custom fit to your hand
Thanks for the education on the issue of brass frames. I just bought a brass frame Pietta 1851 sheriff's model in .36 caliber and am very happy with the build quality. So much so I bought another Pietta all steel 1860 sheriff's model to pair with my '51. I feel much better about my brasser and will shoot it to my heart's content. Thanks for all you do to help us get educated on these fine revolvers!
How easy it is to load the ball with the short lever of the sheriff?
Brass is definitely not my first choice but I bought a 1851 navy brass frame for 50 dollars..
Thank you very much for a most complete review of the history and the metallurgy involved. I now know the difference and I would be shooting conicals if I ever get around to cap and ball revolvers.
Have owned many percussion revolvers of all makes, only once did I find a problem. It was a brass San Marco reproduction 1851. Traded for it used. It was abused heavily. The previous owner shoot very heavy loads constantly. It became sloppy loose. Was able to fix it but soon retired it to a wall hanger .
Always wondered if the brass alloy used in todays brass guns wasnt at least a little bit better.
Going from 500 rounds to 2000 rounds tells the whole story.
Heck, after 2000rnds, get a steel frame for it and brass plate it lol.
I have the same gun you showed in this video; a brass framed 1851 in .44 caliber.
Mine is made by Pietta, and is of very recent manufacture.
I don't think the 'brass' frame is actually brass at all. I think it is some kind of silicon bronze.
I had an identical one that I bought in the late 90s, and that was definitely brass. These newer ones seem to be different, and are probably a lot stronger than the older ones.
My first BP gun was an 1858 Remington Navy in .36 cal. I shot the piss outta that revolver and had zero issues. My second one though was an 1858 New Model Army with a brass frame in .44 cal. I shot it with 30grn Pyrodex pre-formed pellets and round ball ( I didn't know any better, it was a long time ago). The frame bent so bad after a few cylinders that the cylinder would no longer rotate. I gave it away to my cousin and it sits above his fireplace on the mantle. I will never buy a brass frame again. Lesson learned.
Nice video.... I just bought a 1850 Army... 8 inch barrel Traditri0ons .... actually made by Pietta, I think..... I am just playing with it atm..... getting used to the action and stuff...... I have some bullets... balls... and 30 grain pyrodex pellets and some wads....... got some bore buttter too..... cant find the caps heh This is my first BP pistol.... I have shot for my whole life but this is new to me.... Am I on the right track???? and I am [-retty sure this takes Number 9 caps right?
I always fill all my powder charges on 36 and 44 to within 1/4 inch from the mouth of cylinder and never wore out a brass frame.
Why do people speculate this without any practical gunsmithing Experience? Brass Frames do not stretch…
The Arbor doesn’t beat inwards ever. What actually happens is the ratchet on the back of the steel cylinder beats the recoil ring and brass being malleable just moves away and what appears to look like a wave. If you take the time to pull a cylinder out of one and look at the recoil ring you will see what I’m talking about. But without taking the gun apart, if you cock it slowly you will see the cylinder Move forward and back as the ratchet goes over the waves in the recoil ring. I’ve been professionally working on these guns for 35 years and I’ve seen thousands.
Blackie is there a shoot-loose issue with the remington brass 1858 or 63 pocket revolvers. Or just colt revolvers ?
I was not sure if the full frame stops this from occurring. Thank you for your time.
The original Remington brass frame 1858 .36 caliber, made in Ilion, NY, costs enough to buy 20 Pietta’s
I have a 51 navy brass framed ,I bought in 1990 ,never fired it ,paid 89.95 for it from cabellas
The brass frame original Remington Civil War era 1858 did exist, because I see them listed. but I haven’t seen a .44 caliber brass frame original Remington. The pistols with a brass frame aren’t listed with “brass” in the title.
I agree I've shot the crap out of my 1851 navy sheriff brass I love it it's my only black powder gun had it about 5 years still shoots awesome I just underload it !!
The reason the Confederate states used brass is 2 fold..
1..the South couldn't get steel
2. Brass makes your tooling last twice a long
Thanks for mentioning the problem with conicals. I shoot a steel frame Pietta '58 Remington and passed on purchasing conicals recently because I suspected they'd lead to problems with the rammer/linkage/lever. Just the other day I saw a penetration/expansion/accuracy test side by side with roundballs on another channel and the conicals don't seem worth it anywho.
Just got my first brass BP. That explains why every question on these guns yield two different answers. Dad grew up hunting with BP in the 50s and uncle did the reenactments 60s-80s. Never considered the centennial reenactor boom lowering quality. Now it all makes sense. thank you.
hrm.. could you not mill down the end of the dowel? and then fill in the inside of the wedge groove? to re-tighten up that gap to .005"? i've shot 400 round's so far out of mine at 30 grains and she's still at .005"
i just posted a video of how i fixed my barrel gap on my 61 navy .44. pretty simple and easy solution i think
My old brasser 51 chambered in 44 is slicker then owl sh!t. I through one of my ol' famous action jobs on her and her action feels like breaking glass. You may not believe it but that ol vrasser will group better then Ny modern gun iv ever shot
Says in the manual no conical in brass and 5gr less powder than steel for round in my brass I just go by the manual and have no issues no thousands of rounds but my "brass" is just as tight as my steel 🤔 not too worried just shoot hot loads or conical in my steel frames 👍 great video!
I have a neighbor dog that comes to vist. Usually when I'm half drunk ol red sneaks up and plops in my lap and startles the crap out of me!
I have a Pietta Navy in .44. I just cant heep the body from loosening.
I got an 1851 London and I regret it. That steel grip will rust if you just look at it wrong. I’ll be ordering nickel coated brass grips someday soon. I still prefer a steel frame, but brass grips are best.
So it looks to me that these Italian gun nickel plate there frames and dip them in cold blue and that's how they get there color case hardening look. So you could do this on a brass frame gun and it works perfectly. My brass frame 1860 looks steel frame
Awesome info & history! I miss the regular percussion videos.
I use 18 gr in a brass frame.
I use 18 gr in a steel frame
I have a steel frame I shoot with a full charge I only shoot RB
My Pietta '51 brass Navy in .44 works great. I have had it for about 20 years. It still shoots to point of aim at about 25 yards. Don't be afraid to shoot one if you can find it.
How many loads have you shot it with? What grains of BP?
Ok Blackie got a 1979 44 brass frame I got told it was told it was pietta also got a 44 barrel told it was pietta no marks to be sure on either one worried about fittment and allignment any suggestions its not a perfect fit may have to make a snake shot shooter out of it unless you can tell me how to check its safe to shoot round balls
When your brass-frame revolver wears out, you can always mount it on the wall of your man cave as a decoration. 😀
Yup yup nice my first was .44 Sheriff in the brass... That was 2014 For me it is a 2010 make I got it used then...2023 I still shoot it keep in mind 20 grains & and round ball only..
The comments covering the Like button is a terrible video page design.
Very good discussion. One of the best on youtube.
The original southern guns were made of “bell metal”. Actually bronze of 80% copper and 20% tin. This alloy was designed to ring true but was also almost ideal for gun frames as it compared very well to the period “steel” frames which were actually malleable iron and not steel at all. In 1860 and even today bronze is more costly than steel.
In the 1960’s cheap guns had brass frames. Brass is about 85% copper and 15% zinc. But alloys vary. Brass is physically weaker than bronze but has greater elasticity. It is “springy”.
Gun metal in its various alloys is bronze, not brass. It contains traces of lead and phosphorous to improve machining quality. It compares well to mild steel in every respect except cost.
Some guns of the 70’s had brass frames. These are the ones that “stretch”. There were also bronze frames. They dont stretch.
The frame does not stretch per se. The base pin may be pulled from the threads in the frame if poorly threaded with too fine a pitch of thread. Non-ferrous alloys require the use of coarser threads than iron/mild steel. Most “end shake” which is the real effect of excessive loads in a brass frame is the cylinder mechanically battering the recoil ring in the frame. That ring like protrusion in the recoil shield that the hand protrudes through and that supports the rear of the cylinder. Poor initial fitting allows some end shake which simply progresses with time. You are correct the fixing this condition is costly.
Well done.
I wouldn't go more than 25 grains in Brass 44 caliber
If you wear one out just turn it into a wall hanger. You got your couple hundred bucks worth out of it.
Seems like everything you do to one of these Italian guns effects something else
I totally Agree. Thanks Blackie
Be very careful with your 1858 Remington pietta if you bump the site that will fall off they are press-fit
Brass absolutely does tarnish in salt water environments.
2000 rounds in a cap and ball revolver is a lifetime for most folks.
And a life time of good times
@@357bullfrog9 If the government doesn't confiscate the gunpowder starting a war. Like Williamsburg.
@@curtwuollet2912 well I've been wondering if they'll attack our bp guns
@@357bullfrog9 you mean our civil war assault weapons?
@@curtwuollet2912 lol. Yep. Them dangerous high capacity demons lol
What is the highest powder charge you would recommend for a pietta brass 1858 Sheriff? Thanks for the time and work you put into these videos.
Watched the video and you say that the golden boy rifle is the same alloy as the new brass looking frame revolvers today so was just wondering if you can shoot cartridges out of Henry and it the same material as the revolvers why can't you use a conversation cylinder in the brass looking frame revolvers just asking .
Be smart, shot smart, like all tools retire them and keep them.
What’s your opinion on a brass frame 1851 ASM from the early 80’s? I have a ASM my dad put together from a kit somewhere between 80’ and 83’. It has barely been fired. But after recent examination, it definitely has a short arbor, and the wedge doesn’t fit right. I guess my question is, is it worth fixing, or should I just hang it on the wall?
I’m wondering the same thing. I just purchased an ASM made in 1979, it looks very well used but the fit of the cylinder seems to be perfect, much better than a modern Pietta.
I just watched your brass frame video earlier; it is good to know that the brass frames do hold up well, but you are still on a somewhat unspecified clock.
Thanks for the insight, Blackie!
Great VID thats needed doing for a good while. 👍
Like you I've have and shoot both steel and brass revolvers ALOT like a whole LOT 🤣
Love em all, one fav is an 80s Era Richland Arms (ASM) 1858 IN .44. It's had 2 lifetimes of shooting for most folks thru it and still going strong. I load 20grn a wonder wad and hand cast roundball. Accurate Fun Reliable and Ugly, like big nose Kate 😄
Blackie what do you use for filler.
Most of the "brass" framed guns used by the confederacy, were actually BRONZE, frame a much stronger alloy than brass,
Brass is an alloy of copper and lead
Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin
Oop's a big mistake in my post, Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc, not copper and lead.
Bronze has been used for many things including weapons, brass is mainly considered decorative
Yep shoot it out then put it up on display and upgrade to steel.
can i ask something?
Dear Blackie,
Outstanding video, as always, Ihave been asking myself, where did the perccusion series went.. But here it is!
More videos please:). Can You do an update on small leather bullet pouch, and review grip change between navy-army models (and is it worth it).
Also, do You have in mind coming to Europe to do some classes?
You just got new subscriber.
Also, how to get to your patreon account.
Best regards Blackie.
Love it. You gave the same reasons that I learned in my research. I have no practical experience with cap and ball revolvers. I want some but just don't have it. I remember those adds from the 80's! Great info on the stretching of metal. If I shot one out I do believe it will go on the mantel as a display cause man they are beautiful. It seems like a lot of this is common sense and the individual doing his research and gaining the knowledge. Of course that is a rarity now days.
I learned how to time a revolver using those old C&B revolvers from back in the days.
... Not that I like timing a revolver anymore.. lol but it helped me
EZ fix will be to take the arber out and thread it some more fit till you have the gap your looking for then lock-tight it back in place file threaded end of arber off to make it flush again
Not Brass, BRONZE!!!