Thanks to everyone for the comments. I mentioned I don't mind cropping. David Carrera emailed me this link about cropping. Interesting read. Thanks David. www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56318241
Roger, another great video. For me, I love having a print especially one that I have made. It seems organic for me from making an intentional and deliberate choice of film, composing the image through the lens, making decisions of exposurre and depth of field, developing the negative to finally seeing the print come alive in the developer . I find joy in the entire process and it is something I do not feel with digital photography. Once the print is matted and framed the joy continues. Shaing the print with someone else that finds joy in it makes me happy.
I agree with cropping the tree out. Sometimes other things can enhance the shot. Sometimes, as in this case, they are simply a distraction. In the end, you are the creator, and the darkroom is just a continuation of the creative process. The important thing is that the end result matches your mental vision. Some nice work here - very moody/atmospheric. My personal favorite is at 1:52. Moody with an almost abstract look.
Very good video! For some time I've been watching "stuff" made by people who make basic mistakes and teach others classic photography. This here is way different. And good photos to see! I,ve made my time with film photography long time ago and now do digital for more convenience but still have one minolta working from time to time. Many thanks and all the best for Christmas !
I bought an extension tube and start to take photos of mosses in black and white. I think no one is doing this thing: shooting mosses on film in black and white. I think I will print some of them and paste them with photo corners in a ring binder. My prints are 10 by 15 cm.
I personally I employ two methods. Close-up macro as well my kids bought me a Kodak Brownie 2F box camera. 120-6x9 I’ll load up a roll couple filters and go out. Amazing what massive restriction of 2 shutter speeds a barely viewable sight glass and though it has three aperture settings it does. Makes you step back to just creating and not worrying about this or that but just composing a shot
Yes to the photobook or 'zine. I bet there are a lot of us SFLAB subscribers that would happily part with our cash to own one of those. As for the cropping debate, if it's OK for the digital photographers to edit photos so they look nothing like that actual shot they have taken in camera, then it's perfectly fine to crop out an errant tree branch.
Cheers Russell. I've read stuff in the past about cropping. I mentioned in another comment I can't imagine Vogue back in the day would have snubbed at a crop if they felt it was right for the page.
Hmm, lots of interesting points you've made. The only thing that didn't make me say "Yes!" was about the halo. But you took a different angle - instead of trying to hide it, you featured it. And it looks great that way! Thanks for the lessons. :)
I actually didn't know that Dave but it doesn't surprise me. I can't imagine a portrait for vogue back in the day had to be the whole neg. Whatever the editor/photographer wanted to show. I bet the editor had the last say.
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss I have just emailed @ThePhotographicEye who will hopefully remind me of a video he made that included cropped images. Some being ones we all might know.
Ahh yes. I was getting a lot of "BAD" links totally unassociated with photography in the comments section so I have them sent to my "Held" area and sometimes they don't come through! Sorry about that. You can email me Dave. Thanks.
another great video roger i picked up a book of Streatham and Mitchem in photos from a charity shop and the last few months i been going round seeing if i can take the same photo of the same place found some also some are no longer there fun to do.
Lovely, Roger! That's one thing I have not thought of is sticking with a topic in mind a stay with that topic for the day. Gotta try that next time I go out shooting.
Thanks Rick. It's more of a topic I can pursue when I'm out of other ideas, if it's sunny. And also if I am in a different town and have an hour to walk around. Take the camera with me see what I can get.
There is a really nice theme to these photos, they make for a great project, happy to see you persue it and hear you talk about it. I think you should definately do at least a zine out of these.
Me, too. a) I don't have the space for da dark room and b) I have more options to adjust some tones and get rid of dust that may have ended up on the neg. I recommend fir printing Saal Digital. Great quality for a decent price.
Either way the neg or print is digitised for a book. As Robert says the benefit of spotting is much cleaner. I must admit I have never taken a negative to digital print but there is no reason not to. I don't have a printer but I use a local gallery who is a friend and he prints my digital work.
I'm planning on making a zine for my Iceland trip and my plan was indeed to scan the prints rather than the negatives. That's the goal but if I find it doesn't work out the way I want I can go back to the scans. The reason is I shot black and white and color. I find the contrast and look can often be different in the darkroom. Not always, nor is it always better, but it usually is. For the color I find the color just looks much much better when I go through all the trouble of color printing. I shot slide too. The best of those will get drum scanned with the other ones just getting scanned on my flatbed. I had always planned on scanning these, even if reversal printing was more predictable or if Cibachrome was still a thing. That said though I have problem with how other folks do it. That's just my preference for the look and process I want to capture. Same opinion with cropping. I often crop since sometimes I just can't get the shot I want with the setup I have and often times I plan on the crop. I shot some 4x5 that I knew would look better as 1:2 and composed with that plan. But even when I don't quite nail it, if I find a better composition in post, I think that's alright. My goal is to get it right in the camera of course, but I'm not a purist in that regard either.
Hey Tim. You should definitely get a zine on your trip. The ones I've seen on instagram are fab mate. I've never printed a colour (we stick a U in there LOL) neg as you know. but some of the colour scans I've seen of mine do look lush.
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss Ah thanks! I finally finished scanning all the film so have more to share soon! Color or colour in the darkroom is a different animal. Contrast control has to be done by adjusting the developer rather than filters (or switching paper, but the modern papers seem to have similar contrast). That makes it a bit limiting, but the flip-side is the color is soooo accurate and good. That's why I plan on printing at least my favorites. Then I might scan those and do post processing work if needed (hopefully I can get it all right in the darkroom though). It'll be a lot of work but also a ton of fun. It'll be nice to get back in the darkroom. It's been months.
I thinks a book project, especially if it is something like 25 best pictures, you would want to do them in the darkroom, and use the full analog process to dodge/burn and control contrast
It's what I would more than likely do and roll off limited edition number of each print on fibre. Then it comes down to the book quality! Will it represent the original print. Look at a famous B&W photo online. Tonality with each representation (website) is so different.
@@ShootFilmLikeaBossOh that is very cool. I do think there’s tremendous value in the other side of the photography craft. Which is the darkroom work. Obviously you can do all of this by working the scans on a computer too. But because we are in this modern age, there’s something special about the print and retouching having been done via traditional means. I have my darkroom in a place with no access to a sink so washing and drying is more annoying than it should be. I have not yet tried fiber paper and I am learning still. So for now I have only been printing on RC paper. And for cost reason (though I like the finish on it) mostly Fomaspeed Variant 313 (matte or “velvet” finish. I don’t like the reflexions on glossy photo paper that much I feel like.) Anyways, I like everything about where you are going with this and I am happy you are sharing this journey/project with us on RUclips !
Thanks. Yes RC is definitely a cost saver! Do try fibre though! It's worth the experience if anything and cheaper for smaller sized paper. Nice cute little prints! I also have no running water. I use a hose into the shed! Or a drum I fill with water and take in with me. Enjoy printing!
You never have a roll of 36 frames to 'get through'. Consider taking the camera into the darkroom and cutting the exposed film out then a new leader. As a freelance press photographer back in the film days I did this all the time to save on film.
You should use a smaller fstop on your printing. that allows for a longer exposure which then allows for far greater control and subtlety in the dodging and burning. I would often have exposure of a couple of minutes and use a digital timer to give me a series of exposure segments for the various amounts of dodging.
Scan the print that was fixed in the darkroom or scan the neg and fix it with software? Tough choice. I prefer scanning a print as I see the texture of the paper in the final, where scans of the neg look & feel too digital. Nice vid either way.
I'm sure there are plenty in London if you have a look. I'm not sure what camera you shoot but if you shoot 6x7, 6x9, you can make small contact prints using 5x7 paper at home in the bathroom with minimal space just using a desk lamp and sandwiching the negative onto the paper. You just need the paper, developer, stop and fix and three trays that will submerge your paper.
Thanks Erik. I used a couple of drops of washing up liquid which I find works well with eliminating streaks on drying. Any drying spots I do get I give the print another wash indoors.
Nice video Roger. Controlling dust spots in the darkroom is not always so easy. Have you tried retouching inks with a super fine point paint brush? In the U.S. Marshall's is one of the famous manufacturers of retouching inks. Maybe the U.K. also has companies who make retouching kits. It's easy and fun and no need to discard nice prints that have a few dust spots. Regards, Steve (New York).
Thanks Steve. Yes I have. with mixed results. Resin paper is always hard I find but much easier to rewash if you mess it up! I have a set of the Marshalls inks but have only ever used the black. Thanks for the thought!
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss I agree that it can be challenging to spot Resin Coated paper. Fiber based papers are easier to spot. Looking forward to your next video!
Talking about 'A Flock of Seagulls'. there's a Punk to New Wave music photography exhibition at Dimbola House starting in March that you might be interested in.
Y'know, in your case I'd scan the prints, because printing is a huge part of your channel. I suppose Ansel Adams made books from his very particularly dodged and burned prints. If you make a paper print and think you can recreate it in Lightroom, then perhaps, maybe...
I go with RAW files. I visit objects multiple time over days and years. I uses Adobe to make B&W and a Canon 200 to ptint on Canon paper (unless I can afford Canson with brighteners)
Like probably a lot of photographers, I’m not keen on harsh bright sunshine. But yes it is great for strong b/w contrast architecture shots. So I do that now if I am shooting around town on the rare sunny days. We don’t all live in the sunniest place in the UK!!🤣👍📸
It’s funny when you watch videos on RUclips of other photographers walking the streets you automatically find compositions that they have missed and think oh my god how could you not photograph that? I suppose everyone sees the world differently. There are quite a few compositions in the video footage that I thought would be fantastic if I was there with my year to photograph.
For those, who do not know it already a good book for ideas is: The Photographer‘s Playbook edited by Jason Fulford and Gregory Halpern published by aperture It‘s not the usual go out and take photographs of this and that.
Scanning film to see if some of the shots are valuable for darkroom printing is legit. But if scans are your end goal than it's stupid. Course at that point just using a digital camera makes much more sense, and you spare a ton of money. Only scanning slide film (transparencies) is legit course these days that's the only way to prepare them for print or to share them with the world...
Each to their own I say. I did a poll once about this and many said they wasn't interested in darkroom. Maybe one day they will have the opportunity to make prints where they can then pull out their collection of negatives.
My brain is saying that scanning the darkroom enlargements would be better to capture the "magic" of the complete film magic. But , you're the one with the darkroom........
@ ther comes a point when you can clean and re clean and each time there will be different dust spots. Retouching or ‘spotting’ the print is and always has been the way to go.
The hobby of Film photography is only feasible if you have a dark room and do your own processing - otherwise you’ll waste huge amounts of hard earned money on every 36 shot roll of film where 70-80% or more of the shots are ruined or rubbish shots.
Thanks to everyone for the comments. I mentioned I don't mind cropping. David Carrera emailed me this link about cropping. Interesting read. Thanks David. www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56318241
My pleasure
Roger, another great video. For me, I love having a print especially one that I have made. It seems organic for me from making an intentional and deliberate choice of film, composing the image through the lens, making decisions of exposurre and depth of field, developing the negative to finally seeing the print come alive in the developer . I find joy in the entire process and it is something I do not feel with digital photography. Once the print is matted and framed the joy continues. Shaing the print with someone else that finds joy in it makes me happy.
Totally share your enjoyment there Erik. ❤️
I have tried using a monopod in the past. Takes the weight and the strain. It's one of those items that's very useful very rarely.
It does. Good shout too! It's just the neck thing!
I agree with cropping the tree out. Sometimes other things can enhance the shot. Sometimes, as in this case, they are simply a distraction.
In the end, you are the creator, and the darkroom is just a continuation of the creative process. The important thing is that the end result matches your mental vision.
Some nice work here - very moody/atmospheric. My personal favorite is at 1:52. Moody with an almost abstract look.
Cheers Mike. That shadow was a chimney opposite. I waited ages for something in the sky though!
Excellent work!
As always 👍
Thanks!
Iv'e had photographers block for the last 5 years!! Time to dust off my gear and get out there!! Thanks for the inspiration Roger!!
5 years! Ouch! Yeah go for a walk with the camera on a sunny day! 😀
Very good video! For some time I've been watching "stuff" made by people who make basic mistakes and teach others classic photography. This here is way different. And good photos to see! I,ve made my time with film photography long time ago and now do digital for more convenience but still have one minolta working from time to time. Many thanks and all the best for Christmas !
Lovely project mate, and lovely work.
Thank you so much 😀
I bought an extension tube and start to take photos of mosses in black and white. I think no one is doing this thing: shooting mosses on film in black and white. I think I will print some of them and paste them with photo corners in a ring binder. My prints are 10 by 15 cm.
Nice Marco! Sounds like a good project to pursue. Hope you get some great photographs! 👍
Grazie Roger, per i tuoi video, sempre molto interessanti. Buona Luce 😊
Thank You 🙏
I personally I employ two methods. Close-up macro as well my kids bought me a Kodak Brownie 2F box camera. 120-6x9
I’ll load up a roll couple filters and go out.
Amazing what massive restriction of 2 shutter speeds a barely viewable sight glass and though it has three aperture settings it does. Makes you step back to just creating and not worrying about this or that but just composing a shot
You're right. I have the same attitude with the Holga or Pinhole cameras.
Yes to the photobook or 'zine. I bet there are a lot of us SFLAB subscribers that would happily part with our cash to own one of those. As for the cropping debate, if it's OK for the digital photographers to edit photos so they look nothing like that actual shot they have taken in camera, then it's perfectly fine to crop out an errant tree branch.
Cheers Russell. I've read stuff in the past about cropping. I mentioned in another comment I can't imagine Vogue back in the day would have snubbed at a crop if they felt it was right for the page.
these photos are fantastic
Thanks Andrew.
Hmm, lots of interesting points you've made. The only thing that didn't make me say "Yes!" was about the halo. But you took a different angle - instead of trying to hide it, you featured it. And it looks great that way! Thanks for the lessons. :)
Cheers David. Yes the Halo is always a hit or miss. I think it worked here making it more obvious
Some of the best photos by some of the best photographers are cropped. Enjoy your project and wish you well.
I actually didn't know that Dave but it doesn't surprise me. I can't imagine a portrait for vogue back in the day had to be the whole neg. Whatever the editor/photographer wanted to show. I bet the editor had the last say.
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss I have just emailed @ThePhotographicEye who will hopefully remind me of a video he made that included cropped images. Some being ones we all might know.
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss hmm my replies with a link showing examples are being deleted
Ahh yes. I was getting a lot of "BAD" links totally unassociated with photography in the comments section so I have them sent to my "Held" area and sometimes they don't come through! Sorry about that. You can email me Dave. Thanks.
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss No Problem 👍
another great video roger i picked up a book of Streatham and Mitchem in photos from a charity shop and the last few months i been going round seeing if i can take the same photo of the same place found some also some are no longer there fun to do.
Some really nice shots there. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for watching,
Lovely, Roger! That's one thing I have not thought of is sticking with a topic in mind a stay with that topic for the day. Gotta try that next time I go out shooting.
Thanks Rick. It's more of a topic I can pursue when I'm out of other ideas, if it's sunny. And also if I am in a different town and have an hour to walk around. Take the camera with me see what I can get.
another excellent video!
Thank you! Cheers!
There is a really nice theme to these photos, they make for a great project, happy to see you persue it and hear you talk about it. I think you should definately do at least a zine out of these.
Cheers mate. 👍
I scan the negs and edit in photoshop. I then print from there or produce a photobook.
Me, too. a) I don't have the space for da dark room and b) I have more options to adjust some tones and get rid of dust that may have ended up on the neg. I recommend fir printing Saal Digital. Great quality for a decent price.
Either way the neg or print is digitised for a book. As Robert says the benefit of spotting is much cleaner. I must admit I have never taken a negative to digital print but there is no reason not to. I don't have a printer but I use a local gallery who is a friend and he prints my digital work.
I'm planning on making a zine for my Iceland trip and my plan was indeed to scan the prints rather than the negatives. That's the goal but if I find it doesn't work out the way I want I can go back to the scans. The reason is I shot black and white and color. I find the contrast and look can often be different in the darkroom. Not always, nor is it always better, but it usually is. For the color I find the color just looks much much better when I go through all the trouble of color printing.
I shot slide too. The best of those will get drum scanned with the other ones just getting scanned on my flatbed. I had always planned on scanning these, even if reversal printing was more predictable or if Cibachrome was still a thing.
That said though I have problem with how other folks do it. That's just my preference for the look and process I want to capture.
Same opinion with cropping. I often crop since sometimes I just can't get the shot I want with the setup I have and often times I plan on the crop. I shot some 4x5 that I knew would look better as 1:2 and composed with that plan. But even when I don't quite nail it, if I find a better composition in post, I think that's alright. My goal is to get it right in the camera of course, but I'm not a purist in that regard either.
Hey Tim. You should definitely get a zine on your trip. The ones I've seen on instagram are fab mate. I've never printed a colour (we stick a U in there LOL) neg as you know. but some of the colour scans I've seen of mine do look lush.
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss Ah thanks! I finally finished scanning all the film so have more to share soon! Color or colour in the darkroom is a different animal. Contrast control has to be done by adjusting the developer rather than filters (or switching paper, but the modern papers seem to have similar contrast). That makes it a bit limiting, but the flip-side is the color is soooo accurate and good. That's why I plan on printing at least my favorites. Then I might scan those and do post processing work if needed (hopefully I can get it all right in the darkroom though). It'll be a lot of work but also a ton of fun. It'll be nice to get back in the darkroom. It's been months.
I thinks a book project, especially if it is something like 25 best pictures, you would want to do them in the darkroom, and use the full analog process to dodge/burn and control contrast
It's what I would more than likely do and roll off limited edition number of each print on fibre. Then it comes down to the book quality! Will it represent the original print. Look at a famous B&W photo online. Tonality with each representation (website) is so different.
@@ShootFilmLikeaBossOh that is very cool. I do think there’s tremendous value in the other side of the photography craft. Which is the darkroom work. Obviously you can do all of this by working the scans on a computer too. But because we are in this modern age, there’s something special about the print and retouching having been done via traditional means.
I have my darkroom in a place with no access to a sink so washing and drying is more annoying than it should be. I have not yet tried fiber paper and I am learning still. So for now I have only been printing on RC paper. And for cost reason (though I like the finish on it) mostly Fomaspeed Variant 313 (matte or “velvet” finish. I don’t like the reflexions on glossy photo paper that much I feel like.)
Anyways, I like everything about where you are going with this and I am happy you are sharing this journey/project with us on RUclips !
Thanks. Yes RC is definitely a cost saver! Do try fibre though! It's worth the experience if anything and cheaper for smaller sized paper. Nice cute little prints! I also have no running water. I use a hose into the shed! Or a drum I fill with water and take in with me. Enjoy printing!
You never have a roll of 36 frames to 'get through'. Consider taking the camera into the darkroom and cutting the exposed film out then a new leader. As a freelance press photographer back in the film days I did this all the time to save on film.
Done that plenty of times. Still do. Or leave the film in the camera.
Inspiring! 😀
Glad you think so!
You should use a smaller fstop on your printing. that allows for a longer exposure which then allows for far greater control and subtlety in the dodging and burning. I would often have exposure of a couple of minutes and use a digital timer to give me a series of exposure segments for the various amounts of dodging.
I could have. Thanks.
I love the project on square format. Dust off 124G and ….. put it back 😂
Scan the print that was fixed in the darkroom or scan the neg and fix it with software? Tough choice. I prefer scanning a print as I see the texture of the paper in the final, where scans of the neg look & feel too digital. Nice vid either way.
I wanted to try and find a darkroom to rent in London and try printing out, looks like it would be really satisfying but I’ve never tried!
I'm sure there are plenty in London if you have a look. I'm not sure what camera you shoot but if you shoot 6x7, 6x9, you can make small contact prints using 5x7 paper at home in the bathroom with minimal space just using a desk lamp and sandwiching the negative onto the paper. You just need the paper, developer, stop and fix and three trays that will submerge your paper.
Sir, I noticed your wash water seems a bit soapy, do you use an additive in the final rinse? Oh and yes, please make a zine or book... I'll buy one.
Thanks Erik. I used a couple of drops of washing up liquid which I find works well with eliminating streaks on drying. Any drying spots I do get I give the print another wash indoors.
Nice video Roger. Controlling dust spots in the darkroom is not always so easy. Have you tried retouching inks with a super fine point paint brush? In the U.S. Marshall's is one of the famous manufacturers of retouching inks. Maybe the U.K. also has companies who make retouching kits. It's easy and fun and no need to discard nice prints that have a few dust spots. Regards, Steve (New York).
Thanks Steve. Yes I have. with mixed results. Resin paper is always hard I find but much easier to rewash if you mess it up! I have a set of the Marshalls inks but have only ever used the black. Thanks for the thought!
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss I agree that it can be challenging to spot Resin Coated paper. Fiber based papers are easier to spot. Looking forward to your next video!
Thank you for the video, it's a lot of fun, I want to ask, what kind of photo enlarger do you have? )
Think it's a Durst
A Durst 601
It's a Durst M605. It covers negs up to 6x6.
Thank you so much ❤
There is a video of the enlarger in my darkroom playlist. I break it all down. 👍
Talking about 'A Flock of Seagulls'. there's a Punk to New Wave music photography exhibition at Dimbola House starting in March that you might be interested in.
I've only been there once Iain! Thanks for letting me know.
Y'know, in your case I'd scan the prints, because printing is a huge part of your channel.
I suppose Ansel Adams made books from his very particularly dodged and burned prints.
If you make a paper print and think you can recreate it in Lightroom, then perhaps, maybe...
I think thats the best way Steffius.
I go with RAW files. I visit objects multiple time over days and years. I uses Adobe to make B&W and a Canon 200 to ptint on Canon paper (unless I can afford Canson with brighteners)
Like probably a lot of photographers, I’m not keen on harsh bright sunshine. But yes it is great for strong b/w contrast architecture shots. So I do that now if I am shooting around town on the rare sunny days. We don’t all live in the sunniest place in the UK!!🤣👍📸
Sloop at least you don't have the sun shining on your TV
Got a roll of Delta 400 in the Yashica Roger... just need some "day" time to get out. Maybe Wednesday :)
🤞🏻 Hope it goes well Iain.
Hello Boss Roger 🤚
👋🏻
It’s funny when you watch videos on RUclips of other photographers walking the streets you automatically find compositions that they have missed and think oh my god how could you not photograph that? I suppose everyone sees the world differently. There are quite a few compositions in the video footage that I thought would be fantastic if I was there with my year to photograph.
Yep..local area..familiarity breeds contempt?🤔🤔
It's true. Others walk into our town and see photos everywhere.
The only kind of film that I don't make prints of (myself or by the lab) is positive slides film. 😊 I look at those by projecting them on the screen.😊
I've never shoot any slide. Although I have some slide film in the fridge. Plenty in a box from the 70's and 80's though. Great fun projecting them.
@ShootFilmLikeaBoss oh, yeah. The colors and the effect are stunning. 🙂
For those, who do not know it already a good book for ideas is: The Photographer‘s Playbook edited by Jason Fulford and Gregory Halpern published by aperture
It‘s not the usual go out and take photographs of this and that.
Thanks for the recommend.
I only watch if there's a seagull in the vid.😂
Scanning film to see if some of the shots are valuable for darkroom printing is legit. But if scans are your end goal than it's stupid. Course at that point just using a digital camera makes much more sense, and you spare a ton of money. Only scanning slide film (transparencies) is legit course these days that's the only way to prepare them for print or to share them with the world...
Each to their own I say. I did a poll once about this and many said they wasn't interested in darkroom. Maybe one day they will have the opportunity to make prints where they can then pull out their collection of negatives.
My brain is saying that scanning the darkroom enlargements would be better to capture the "magic" of the complete film magic. But , you're the one with the darkroom........
I think so too Tim. Thats what I've decided to do. Cheers.
Dust? Spot out the prints. That's part of photography. Dust is just sloppy.
Yes, especially on glossy papers... 😅
Dust can occur even when you've tried your best to eliminate it.
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss yes I agree so spot out the prints. Everybody did. Even Ansel Adams.
Would you not rather clean the neg and re-print? Unless it's trapped then yes, camouflage it.
@ ther comes a point when you can clean and re clean and each time there will be different dust spots. Retouching or ‘spotting’ the print is and always has been the way to go.
The hobby of Film photography is only feasible if you have a dark room and do your own processing - otherwise you’ll waste huge amounts of hard earned money on every 36 shot roll of film where 70-80% or more of the shots are ruined or rubbish shots.
I can't agree. Many enjoy shooting on film, using old cameras and scanning/inkjet printing regardless of their results.