Very good video. It would appear to me that it would be wise to also remove the fuel tank to gain access, and that removal of the wing is certainly the way to go. I've got a customer with pa-28-151 in need of forward and aft replacement, as well as another with a pa-28r-201T in need of forward replacement. We await the results of inspection of ER and results to perform these jobs.
Has there ever been a discussion of adding two more ribs in the wing walk area? Maybe it could be an intermediate panel stiffener between the ribs and parallel to the ribs that would help distribute a step load over a larger number of the existing bead stiffiners.
Excellent Video sir, My AP found one oblong area cracked on my plane (Where you have the sharpie draw in) would you have any clue as to how long in the panels life it would take to form multiple cracks? Thank You!
One of the local school p28-161 has a soft wing walk. It appears some of the rivets in that rib are missing completely and two were replaced with blind rivets. Is that forward rib under the wing walk structural?
I physically separate the top skin from the under structure to match the shape and the rivet holes. It’s actually pretty easy. Just need 2 people to buck the rivets 👌👍
Just about every PA28 i have walked on creeks in that area. Are replacements any thicker in the pressed area. Interesting to note the corrosion at the back of the box near the rear mounting. Looks like a water trap.
This was done on my Warrior a few a couple of years back. The mechanic did it without taking off the wing. I've got pictures somewhere. It was pretty interesting. But certainly not cheap.
About 6:15 or so you say blind rivets aren't allowed to be used in wing spars per AC 43.13 but I've been unable to find this requirement. Is this really verboten?
Pitkä Peura Actually AC 43.13-1B says that blind rivets shall not be used in areas that are "high stress", which this gentleman is assuming means "anything that is attached to the wing spar", which is incorrect. The spar is unaffected whether it is a blind or solid rivet. Hence it is acceptable to use blind rivets to attach the wing walk area without removing the wing. But then you can't charge those hours so...
Straight from the blind rivets section: CAUTION: For metal repairs to the air frame, the use of blind rivets must be spe cifically authorized by the airframe manu facturer or approved by a representative of the FAA.
Problem is with all the hours and equipment(?) required to show the FAA the strength would be the same(possible upsizing of holes, or number of holes) you might as well take the loss and pay the extra cash with what you'd be losing in downtime assuming you rent it out. It certainly would turn a nightmare job into something your local sheet metal shop could do in a day or 2. Don't actually know in reality if they would even consider it for approval, and if they did what information and to what extent they actually need, not just what their papers say they need.
while they were on retractable models..seems to me a good time to inspect the spar attachment points that failed and cracks found on the PAs in florida
Saltwater is highly corrosive to Aluminum. I live on the Texas Gulf coast, always a big concern for any aircraft and why I spent the bucks to hanger my planes, a lot cheaper than fixing corrosion.
@@larrygreen8912 Or if you happen to be of the male gender, you could buy a citabria or decathlon. Hell, any taildragger will do. Those are just ones I've owned. I will say however, I've flown in a lot of pipers over the years and after seeing how the wings are built and especially how they're attached. (or barely attached) to the fuselage... I'm not sure I ever want to do so again. At least not unless I personally know the mechanic. I still hate flying a plane as boring as a 152 or 172... But I'd still rent one from a random small town airport in BFE and feel safe. Flying it.... Pipers? Not so much anymore. Walk into same airport in north BFE and the guy says "sure, we got an old warrior for rent"... Yeah no feckin way Bud. I don't need a wing flying off randomly when I'm cruising along minding my own business. Boring as a Cessna is, at least the wings are properly attached from the factory. And yeah. I know my Citabria had a wooden spar, but wood doesn't suffer from metal fatigue from repeated bending. My decathlon is upgraded with composite spars... I'm not worried about delamination or anything like that because with my plane it's less of a wing, and more of a series of inspection panels with little bits of wing attached every so often. Lol.
Thanks for taking the time to make this video Roy! Quick question, Has Piper made any improvements to the wing walk skins? Seems like an Easy repair to replace the skins (No 337) but I would hope there is a beef up in the works?
Next time your up close to an older Boeing 737 or 747 take a hard look and what holds it together, but they are not allowed on GA aircraft as the extra strength leads to cracking on thinner panels.
AC43-14 allows them to be used (as mechanicall locking rivets): Mechanical-lock rivets have a device on the puller or rivet head which locks the center stem into place when installed. Many friction-lock rivet center stems fall out due to vibrations; this in turn, greatly reduces its shear strength. The mechanical-lock rivet was developed to prevent that problem. Various manufacturers make mechanical-lock fasterners such as: Bulbed Cherrylock, CherryMax, Olympic-Loks, and Huck-Loks.
Because you aren't legally allowed to repair unless if you are a holder of an A&P cert. If a mechanic didn't know how to "run some rivets" then how the hell would he had received his cert.
@@ryannickos3557 I builing semi trailers for 30 years and I was wondering 🤔 how you bucked rivets on a plane in some of those spots and I will get my A&P in do time !
This seems unnecessary. A panel on top of the wing? Because of cracks in the ends of the stiffener flutes? I don't think any Piper has ever crashed due to this.
According to the video, he also had to remove the landing gear, baggage door, all the wiring and insulation, instrument panel, control yoke, windscreens, the complete firewall forward. He needed to scrap the airplane in order to replace the wing walk. You should trade your Cessna in on a brain.
I do not like the manner in which that spar is attached to the fuselage. Those holes right opposite each other may well be fine on the top of the spar where there is compression, but at the bottom where there is impulsive tension, well, the last set of holes going towards the wing tips are subjected to very high stress and a possibility of crack is very high. Rather than drilling the holes right opposite each other, the distance between the holes could have been lengthened by drilling opposite between the holes, even if it means one less bolt to use. On an overhead hanging traveler, I was faced with the same problem and reinforced that area. Piper should look into that wing attachment.
since there is only one door and it is on the right side.. we probably don't need to be told that is also where the wing walk is .. Multiple redundancies in the first two minutes but after that good information.
So how do you remove the troublesome rivets......that might have been valuable information. Poor job helping us. Anyone can point out trouble, the good one can tell us how to fix it.
Oh Farmer Ted, if you can't solve problems on your own, stay in the field and turn dirt. For the life of me, I can't understand how anyone can make it through life with half a brain. On the other hand, it's probably really easy going through life not knowing what you don't know and never trying to solve problems. I guess you just don't think about things.
Excellent - many thanks for taking the time to make this video.
Very good video.
It would appear to me that it would be wise to also remove the fuel tank to gain access, and that removal of the wing is certainly the way to go.
I've got a customer with pa-28-151 in need of forward and aft replacement, as well as another with a pa-28r-201T in need of forward replacement. We await the results of inspection of ER and results to perform these jobs.
JeepCo MJ just curious, how much a project like this would cost? I have a PA140... I don’t have this problem but it would be good to know.
Thank you so much for preparing this....very timely for me.
Has there ever been a discussion of adding two more ribs in the wing walk area? Maybe it could be an intermediate panel stiffener between the ribs and parallel to the ribs that would help distribute a step load over a larger number of the existing bead stiffiners.
Excellent Video sir, My AP found one oblong area cracked on my plane (Where you have the sharpie draw in) would you have any clue as to how long in the panels life it would take to form multiple cracks? Thank You!
One of the local school p28-161 has a soft wing walk. It appears some of the rivets in that rib are missing completely and two were replaced with blind rivets. Is that forward rib under the wing walk structural?
I physically separate the top skin from the under structure to match the shape and the rivet holes. It’s actually pretty easy. Just need 2 people to buck the rivets 👌👍
Very nice presentation.
What is the wing walk area weight limit?
Nice job. I'm pretty sure that's not something I want to do myself. Glad you have the skills!
Just about every PA28 i have walked on creeks in that area. Are replacements any thicker in the pressed area.
Interesting to note the corrosion at the back of the box near the rear mounting. Looks like a water trap.
This was done on my Warrior a few a couple of years back. The mechanic did it without taking off the wing.
I've got pictures somewhere. It was pretty interesting. But certainly not cheap.
Where you happy with the job he did ?
@@jefferykirk2322 Yes. No issues what so ever.
Hi, thanks for the videos. Is the issues with the wingwalk similar on the Piper Comanche? Are the repairs similar?
About 6:15 or so you say blind rivets aren't allowed to be used in wing spars per AC 43.13 but I've been unable to find this requirement. Is this really verboten?
They are not allowed unless specifically authorized by the manufacturer. Too much strength is bad too, leads to cracking
Pitkä Peura Actually AC 43.13-1B says that blind rivets shall not be used in areas that are "high stress", which this gentleman is assuming means "anything that is attached to the wing spar", which is incorrect. The spar is unaffected whether it is a blind or solid rivet. Hence it is acceptable to use blind rivets to attach the wing walk area without removing the wing. But then you can't charge those hours so...
Straight from the blind rivets section:
CAUTION: For metal repairs to the air
frame, the use of blind rivets must be spe
cifically authorized by the airframe manu
facturer or approved by a representative of
the FAA.
Pitkä Peura So not just the manufacturer, gottit.
Problem is with all the hours and equipment(?) required to show the FAA the strength would be the same(possible upsizing of holes, or number of holes) you might as well take the loss and pay the extra cash with what you'd be losing in downtime assuming you rent it out. It certainly would turn a nightmare job into something your local sheet metal shop could do in a day or 2. Don't actually know in reality if they would even consider it for approval, and if they did what information and to what extent they actually need, not just what their papers say they need.
roughly how much will this replacement cost
Very knowledgeable. Thankyou
while they were on retractable models..seems to me a good time to inspect the spar attachment points that failed and cracks found on the PAs in florida
Saltwater is highly corrosive to Aluminum. I live on the Texas Gulf coast, always a big concern for any aircraft and why I spent the bucks to hanger my planes, a lot cheaper than fixing corrosion.
Thanks!
Any tips on how to avoid cracking wing walk skins? Where to walk. Shoes to avoid. Other.
Kevin Moore .....I have one buy a Cessna .
One would assume you'd wanna put ur foot on the Rib of the wing vs in-between them. Just basing off common sense
@@larrygreen8912 Or if you happen to be of the male gender, you could buy a citabria or decathlon. Hell, any taildragger will do. Those are just ones I've owned. I will say however, I've flown in a lot of pipers over the years and after seeing how the wings are built and especially how they're attached. (or barely attached) to the fuselage... I'm not sure I ever want to do so again. At least not unless I personally know the mechanic. I still hate flying a plane as boring as a 152 or 172... But I'd still rent one from a random small town airport in BFE and feel safe. Flying it.... Pipers? Not so much anymore. Walk into same airport in north BFE and the guy says "sure, we got an old warrior for rent"... Yeah no feckin way Bud. I don't need a wing flying off randomly when I'm cruising along minding my own business. Boring as a Cessna is, at least the wings are properly attached from the factory. And yeah. I know my Citabria had a wooden spar, but wood doesn't suffer from metal fatigue from repeated bending. My decathlon is upgraded with composite spars... I'm not worried about delamination or anything like that because with my plane it's less of a wing, and more of a series of inspection panels with little bits of wing attached every so often. Lol.
blackhawks81H ... we have a Stearman and a L3 I very much enjoy the vintage aircraft. Stearman is OK to takeoff a dream to fly and a bitch to land .
@@larrygreen8912 Without the skylights. They leak and kill a wing.
Roy what is the estimate weight of the Cherokee 6 wing panel?
Thanks for taking the time to make this video Roy! Quick question, Has Piper made any improvements to the wing walk skins? Seems like an Easy repair to replace the skins (No 337) but I would hope there is a beef up in the works?
no need to start watching until 2:40, I suggest you cut everything before this time.
No such thing as too much information in the Aviation world!
Not a sheet metal expert here, but I would had thought that you could use cherry rivets for the installation of this panels... I’m I wrong?
Yes. You are.
Next time your up close to an older Boeing 737 or 747 take a hard look and what holds it together, but they are not allowed on GA aircraft as the extra strength leads to cracking on thinner panels.
AC43-14 allows them to be used (as mechanicall locking rivets):
Mechanical-lock rivets have a device on the puller or rivet head which locks the
center stem into place when installed. Many
friction-lock rivet center stems fall out due to
vibrations; this in turn, greatly reduces its
shear strength. The mechanical-lock rivet was
developed to prevent that problem. Various
manufacturers make mechanical-lock fasterners such as: Bulbed Cherrylock, CherryMax,
Olympic-Loks, and Huck-Loks.
Hey can a scrap plane upgrade?
Depends on how much $$$ you think it is worth. I always tell people to buy what you can afford to maintain.
How about showing use how to run some rivets.
Because you aren't legally allowed to repair unless if you are a holder of an A&P cert. If a mechanic didn't know how to "run some rivets" then how the hell would he had received his cert.
@@ryannickos3557 I builing semi trailers for 30 years and I was wondering 🤔 how you bucked rivets on a plane in some of those spots and I will get my A&P in do time !
Also because if you are not skilled enough to do this work now, this is not the job to build your skill on/ practice on!
This seems unnecessary. A panel on top of the wing? Because of cracks in the ends of the stiffener flutes? I don't think any Piper has ever crashed due to this.
To replace the wing walk he had to pull the engine off , the interior out and remove the wing ? Glad I have a Cessna
We did this on our PA-28-181 without removing the wing, just a fuel tank. It was easy.
Deaths
Decade:______Piper________Cessna
70's_________ 1854________ 2196
80's_________ 1318________ 1858
90's__________ 905________ 1247
00's__________ 549_________ 850
Total:______4,626_______6,151
Cessna increased only 33% VS. a 49% baseline.
Accidents
Decade:_____Piper_____Cessna
70's_______10,474_____15,784
80's________6,462_____11,624
90's________4,087______7,585
00's________2,444______4,579
Total:____23,467____39,572
Cessna increased only 69% VS. a 49% baseline.
@@davidb2045 hey, how did you do that? from wich part of the wing did you replace the wing walk?
According to the video, he also had to remove the landing gear, baggage door, all the wiring and insulation, instrument panel, control yoke, windscreens, the complete firewall forward. He needed to scrap the airplane in order to replace the wing walk.
You should trade your Cessna in on a brain.
You don't want me wing walking, I'm too fat now!
Highly specialised work,those solid rivets must be a pain to deal with.
Angel Reading I built the wing walks "roots" for the 28s at the Vero beach piper for the past two years deff not easy
I do not like the manner in which that spar is attached to the fuselage. Those holes right opposite each other may well be fine on the top of the spar where there is compression, but at the bottom where there is impulsive tension, well, the last set of holes going towards the wing tips are subjected to very high stress and a possibility of crack is very high. Rather than drilling the holes right opposite each other, the distance between the holes could have been lengthened by drilling opposite between the holes, even if it means one less bolt to use. On an overhead hanging traveler, I was faced with the same problem and reinforced that area. Piper should look into that wing attachment.
since there is only one door and it is on the right side.. we probably don't need to be told that is also where the wing walk is .. Multiple redundancies in the first two minutes but after that good information.
Just replace these wing walk skins with 1/8 inch thick aluminum plate. Solved.
fly a piper until the wing fall off. the only aircraft piper ever built is the cubs
So how do you remove the troublesome rivets......that might have been valuable information. Poor job helping us. Anyone can point out trouble, the good one can tell us how to fix it.
He probably failed to mention removing rivets due to repercussions from winers like you. Do people a favor and they`ll use it against you.
Blow me Greg! You troll douche bag!
Hey Greg I know your mom said your “special” but she meant it another way from what you think.
Oh Farmer Ted, if you can't solve problems on your own, stay in the field and turn dirt. For the life of me, I can't understand how anyone can make it through life with half a brain. On the other hand, it's probably really easy going through life not knowing what you don't know and never trying to solve problems. I guess you just don't think about things.
I just would use some scrap aluminum sheet and a pop rivets from Home Depot - easy peasy.
Why bother. Just paint over it.
I wouldn't fly in a piper, the wings fall off.
Deaths
Decade:______Piper________Cessna
70's_________ 1854________ 2196
80's_________ 1318________ 1858
90's__________ 905________ 1247
00's__________ 549_________ 850
Total:______4,626_______6,151
Cessna increased only 33% VS. a 49% baseline.
Accidents
Decade:_____Piper_____Cessna
70's_______10,474_____15,784
80's________6,462_____11,624
90's________4,087______7,585
00's________2,444______4,579
Total:____23,467____39,572
Cessna increased only 69% VS. a 49% baseline.
Very dry
Flimsy aluminum. Glad I don't fly one. Wing should not fall off the airplane in flight.
I’m glad you don’t fly one as well. All planes have issues.
So your 400 lb girlfriend should not ride with you?
WHY would you want to fly in a FORTY YEAR OLD plane??