TIP #6: You have to be very passionate about aviation. Even though these tips are for saving money, you will still invest a lot into an airplane. You have to love it and be willing to make sacrifices for it. Not everyone can afford an airplane, but these are steps in the right direction.
It would be nice if I could just get an airplane for transportation. It would really help with super long commutes. But that is nearly impossible in today's GA.
Reason I would never buy experimental is the chance that an “amateur” put it together and or worked on it. (Amateurs that maybe have never worked or built anything before) No offense but there’s a reason not just anyone can fix or work on everything on a certified aircraft…with good reason lol
Fair point -- the gov't has their hands in our pockets pretty deep. Their "job" as they see it is to tell us what we cannot do, and regulate and tax everything "they" say we can do. @@stevecunningham6821
Try playing in DCS VR. I can barely afford that. computer was 3k total, headset was 1k, modules and maps were like 500, hotas was 500. Oh and I still don't have good enough performance, the 3080 is a hard bottleneck now. If I could afford a 2k 4090 I'd be good... I just can't justify spending that much on one part.
Yeah, same here. I got my ticket in 09, got about 150 hours and didn't fly for a while. Got back into it last year and yikes! Not to mention the attitude around GA is garbage. No one can afford to fly for fun anymore. Additionally, it's the same old airplanes I was flying in 09 with another 4000 hours on them. The attitude of owners/flight schools is also garbage. If you're not going 141/ATP, apparently you're not serious... well, duh... Didn't I say I wanted to fly for fun? Is it illegal or something?
@@jeremiahmcelroy2726 The 3080 is not a bottleneck for DCS. DCS ITSELF contains the bottlenecks.. inside its legacy code. You can get a decent (non VR) performance out of a 2030 or a 1660 even. The solution is not an every increasingly beefy GPU at all. You can search for vids testing and explaining this in depth. It just ain't so. Memory, SSD, DDR4/5 and caching is far more important. VR requires a lot of tweaking your setup is not the problem, your settings are.
@@hebedabber2770 People blame previous generations, but honestly we've done a lot to ruin our own generation as well. By over-regulating businesses and overtaxing everyone we've forced small businesses to shut down and force a monopoly. Then to add salt to the wound the open immigration policy has allowed way to much uneducated labor into the country forcing additional competition for the already monopolized corporate jobs. This combination has provided the corps in a no fail situation where they can pay nothing (whatever the given minimum wage is at the time) and just raise prices to offset minimum wage changes while also outlasting any competition far before it can become meaningful. Add in automation which only exacerbates the issue and there you have it. Too many uneducated people and no jobs or a couple poorly paying jobs. College isn't doing much better since they've taken federal aid and used it as an opportunity to hike prices. Now it is more unattainable than ever or even worse, the debt accrued is impossible to pay off. Most of the above issues actually happened in the last 10-20 years and were heavily pushed by our own generation at their own expense.
@@oceanbytez847 Who's "we"? G.I. gen/silent-gen are largely responsible for the immigration and nationality act of 65'. Silent-gen/boomers are responsible for shipping most of our industrial capacity off to china and the rest of the third world. Those same generations are the ones who control those monopolies you mentioned. Not to mention they're the same ones who made college unaffordable. Gen-x/gen-y are underrepresented in the house and senate. Previous generations sold out their own children's future to the lowest bidder so they could waste away in margaritaville.
@@hebedabber2770 The other generations have outnumbered boomers for quite a while, so why is the government so geriatric? Younger generations are unwilling to take on that responsibility, as evidenced by you trying to blame boomers for everything.
The two happiest times for me was when I first bought my airplane (Cessna 177 Cardinal) and when I finally sold it. Although I could afford to own and fly it, I just couldn’t come to terms with the never ending outflow of money.
Sounds like owning a boat… great to have.. enjoy it… but residual upkeep, storage, insurance and inspections add up. The annual use doesn’t justify the costs at the end of the year. Glad I saw this.. just getting ready to retire and looking into flight
@@russcate1510 I guess it’s all about having good experiences and creating memories. I certainly don’t regret having owned an airplane for that reason alone.
@@vsznry Fractional ownership can be good if EVERYONE gets along, if EVERYONE has relatively common goals like adhering to the rules, returning the plane on time, not hogging the aircraft, returning it in a clean flyable condition, EVERYONE pays their dues in a timely manner, EVERYONE is willing to pony up and pay any special assessments for unexpected repairs that quickly deplete the reserve, and EVERYONE is willing to confront anyone that is not complying. When was the last time you saw a group where everyone got along without conflict?
The second secret to affordable flying is to live in an aviation community. There are quite a few of these in Florida. Mine has about 30 homes with hangers along with a 2700 ft. grass runway. In addition to having no hanger fees (one of the biggest costs of owning an airplane) we have two instructors and three aviation mechanics as neighbors. Many are either active or retired airline pilots, and all have a genuine love of flying. I find the cost of living here very little more than anywhere else and I trust my neighbors to look out for my interests as I respect theirs. Check it out!
That is one of my biggest dreams in life. I have been looking for an aviation community near my work here at the space Coast. It seems like the only one that’s around this side is in Massey Airpark about an hour north of where I live currently.
all those folks from Florida came from up north money and didn't make their money in Florida the median income in FL is like 59K good luck buying anything flying even a remote control with that income
Many people are obviously unaware that that the process to get an experimental aircraft off the ground requires multiple inspections by the FAA during the build such as checking inside the wings before they are skinned closed. Checking that the correct AIRCRAFT hardware is used throughout anywhere that it is required. Typically, experimental aircraft are built stronger than certified aircraft. See the G limits and you'll find experimental aircraft can usually withstand a lot more than a certified airplane. Most people who build experimental airplanes are craftsman. Many build "fast build" kits where the factory, such as Van's, has built most of the structure and the "builder" puts it together like a model airplane and then adds engine, wiring, avionics, paint etc. If you ever have a chance to see on opened up during the inspection I wager you'll be impressed by the build quality.
This kind of thing really infuriates me and is the reason I gave up on GA. There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING, that is "affordable" about aviation of any stripe or shape. If I had won the big money lottery, then it might be affordable. But then you account for the outrageous amount of time, effort, study, checkrides, etc, then it becomes very unpractical very fast. GA needs drastic changes very fast or it will die out very soon.
I bought into a partnership with an arrow for less than what I paid for my truck. Cost me $250 a month. I have noticed some people equate affordable with free. It’s going to be free. Try harder
Pal, it’s all about your priorities. I’ve flown for the last 20 years it was tough in the beginning kids,the house, collage. That said an experimental aircraft was a wonderful way to keep flying. I agree it’s not cheap what really is ? I have friends with way more money into boats, campers, and motorcycles the I do in aviation. Paid 35k for the current airplane , a Europa XS goes 150 mph on 5 gallons an hour. Don’t give up there is a experimental in every price point, best of luck G
Not in in many years. I was based there 1988-1992, some good memories. I actually learned a lot from the old time pilot-owners in those days. Maybe will fly in some day to check it out once again! @@nossonyoffe3805
I am totally with you buddy. I came from the military aviation world and really wanted a good 4 seater. Rented a cirrus for a while, was thinking of buying and then I saw the numbers, I ran the numbers so many times and I could not believe how expensive it is to own a cirrus. I ended up building a RV-10 with a lot of help and now I have what is in my mind the most affordable four seater on the market, put in all the good stuff, Thunderbolt IO540 265HP AC, Oxygen, leather, fancy 3 Gucci Garmin G3X Beringer wheels and brakes . Never thought to go this way but the numbers were so good I had to give it try. All that under 350K with builder assist.
How did a $112k kit with quickbuild come out to a $350k finish? Just wondering what extras was added that made it so high. I calculated a Lycoming io360 $60k, Avionics $25k, add $10k for misc we are still about $208k. Wonder where the extra $150k go. Just curious and want to learn about the expenses and what i'm missing if you don't mind sharing.
Thanks a lot for sharing this video. I fully agree with all you said. But let me add just one thing here about experimental aircrafts. I have built my own RV-12 which I fly and maintain myself for the last 5 years. It is still a quite expensive hobby and it takes a good portion of my annual income. There is no such thing like cheap in aviation.
The one thing I enjoyed flying more than anything else. The earth (ground) is our play ground. Sometimes when you're engulfed in a situation. Sometimes you need a different perspective. Flying gave me that perspective. Being able to look down at all those little people, driving their little cars, with all their little problems. Helped me realize my problems weren't as big as I made them out to be.
For those pilots in the snowbelt states, it is highly desirable to obtain hanger storage, which is also becoming more difficult to find, and ridiculously expensive when one becomes available.
Depends on where you are. I know of a couple fields that had open hanger space, being used by the City for stowage and the like. But if you're in the big cities, where flying is controlled and popular, you're probably still out of luck.
I looked into getting started in aviation, and did it pretty much as you described at the beginning of the video. I saw the prices on 'certified aircraft' and immediately noped out. I didn't even know there was a difference or another option other than certified factory built aircraft. This video just opened up a whole new world, a new fantastic point of view.
I complete agree with everything you said! Though, for clarity, my video is about the planes I think are the "best" that cost less than 100k to buy (basically my favourites). Agreed that these dinosaur certified planes will eat you alive if you buy them. Here's a fun fact, In Canada, just owning any experimental plane gives you full unrestricted authority to do any work or inspections you want. I'm in the middle of a full panel upgrade in my RV-3 (that I didn't build) and I don't know what the heck I'm doing 😉 Thanks for the video, big fan of the channel. Cheers from the frozen north
Totally agreed. I’m up in Canada also. Owner of an RV-6A. I did a panel upgrade, GTN650, GTX335 ADSB transponder out, and Dynon auto-pilot. All work done by myself. Sure, I have an AME, look over my work, but the savings are wonderful. Extremely high value for the small cost. I even had an airline pilot sit in my plane and comment, that my plane has better navigation features than the older Airbus he flies. Just try to even think about all those features in a certified GA aircraft and multiply the cost by 5X.
Good shit for both him and you for not being inflammatory and just being rational human beings. Been following you for like a year and a half but it really is mainly just for entertainment I'm probably going to go for a paraglider or hang-glider myself until my financial situation drastically changes
@@danstein86being an experimental aircraft can you use it for further flight training like interment rating and your commercial license in Canada? I’m looking into buying one have my PPL already but renting is tuff as I have to travel min an 45min
@@sledman3000 for flight training for an instrument rating, yes an experimental aircraft that has been registered for instrument flight capability can be used for instrument flight training. Those hours of training with an instructor will count. HOWEVER, your actual flight test will need to be done in a certified aircraft. So further training will be required to get familiar with the flight school’s certified aircraft. The avionics and controls will take a good additional 5-10 hours of familiarization.
I store my CH 750 outdoors. I cound a huge roll of surplus Army canvas online and used my neighbor's leather stitching machine to make a cover. I made some standoffs for all the sky facing surfaces that I use under the cover during hail season so I don't get any damage for that. A hangar here is $400 per month.Outdoor storage off the ramp in a grass field is only $50,00 per month. There is an electrical pedestal I can pull up to incase I need electricity for something. SO between automotive fuel and outdoor storage, the low speed of the airplane, I am saving a bunch on everything including insurance which is only $1175 per year. So yes, Light Sport is definietly a good way to go. The fuel economy with the SUbaru is better than my truck so if the weather is right I can go visit someone 300 miles away, get there faster and cheaper. When I was a kid back in the early 60s GA was growing like a weed. There were a ton of retired used WWII military observation planes available for next to nothing so a lot of just plain old blue collar working stiffs like me could to afford to own a plane AND fly whenever they liked. SOmeone should do a study on the annual income levels need to support the habit. That might be interesting to see.
I made the decision to get my license in Canada. After talking to some friends who have their ppl they all recommended just getting my ultra permit and going for something like a zenith 601 HD. It'll be a fraction of the cost for entrance and a fraction for ownership costs. Yes there are limitations but for what I'm looking for it just makes more sense.
Affordable aviation, its almost an oxymoron. For me aviation has been a dream since I was 4 years old. Last summer I finally got into ppg. The equipment was not cheap but compared with other aviation it was way more affordable. Now when I fly i spend about 10 bucks on fuel and a few bucks for oil. Its not going to get me and my family to Florida but just having the ability to lay out my wing at a local park and takeoff into the sky is such an amazing feeling. If you dream of aviation and cannot afford general aviation look into PPG. I fly with a Coast Guard helicopter pilot who says he has more fun flying his PPG. It certainly comes with limitations (weather) being the main limitation but when you finally get a nice calm day and lift off into the sky its an absolutely unforgettable experience. It has truly changed my life. I still hope to get into a LSA someday but for now and forever, I will be a PPG pilot.
Dont ever give up! If its your passion, you will know what to sacrifice or suffer for, to make it happen. Don't let the other comments discourage you, I worked on ejection seats on all models of the F-18 in the navy, and one thing i learned is you have the power to do anything in this life.
I owned a certified plane (1979 Warrior) and now own an experimental (RV-9A). I agree with what you say here. Flying will never be cheap, but experimental is a much better way to go. Cheaper parts and especially cheaper autopilots & other avionics are big factors.
I’m actually very interested in experimental market im going to A&P school n I really want to fly it’s been a dream of mine is it still ridiculous or a little more reasonable to go experimental?
@@killerflamingo9566 still ridiculous but owning a cheap plane with another person can be doable. Go get that A&P and you’ll be around people crazy enough to do that.
Light sport can be a bit restrictive. But there are lots of used experimentals out there. The sticking point is you still need an A&P to sign off on the annual "condition inspection". The difference here is you can do all of the work yourself. The A&P signs off on it. This may seem odd but there are A&Ps out there that are busy or older and retired, and do not need the work. They will inspect, recommend what needs to be done, and then you complete the tasks. Once you know the aircraft, you will have it all ready before inspection. This is not a big deal. For people that don't want to build an entire aircraft consider purchasing a partially completed kit. Often they can be purchased for much less than a new kit and sometimes they are almost completed. If you are the builder that finishes it, then you are the builder of record. You are entitled to the repairman certificate on that aircraft and now you can do all the maintenance and sign off on condition inspections. Experimental is really the way to go. If you tie down outside, get some good covers made. Make friends with someone that has a hangar so occasional maintenance can be done inside. That is the cheapest way to own your own aircraft.
I know this video was made to ease the worries of getting into GA. But as someone who never got in I can now say it's unobtainable for me at this time. Very informative video. Wish the industry was different.
Our 5 person group has shared a Diamond DA40 for many years now. All fixed expenses are shared equally. Fill up the tank when you’re done and then an hourly engine replacement accrual based on hours flown. Shared google calendar. Has been a fantastic way to fly at a very low cost.
I totally agree. LSA is the future of personal aviation. Here in Europe the number of light aircraft (a little bit different terminology depending on the country) completely exceeds the general aviation airplanes in the registry. You only need an annual inspection from a recognised examiner and that’s it. MOGAS (auto fuel) is also much cheaper than AVGAS 100LL (went up recently)
This is the most practical tips for affordable flying that I’ve come across. I chuckle when I see someone listing an old Bonanza as “affordable“. Depends on who your audience is. For a lot of people this is the most economical way to get into flying.
Experimental is good, but at least here in New Zealand, it depends on a few things. I'm building a Sling TSi but also bought a 1972 Piper Cherokee two months ago. The thing with experimental in NZ is you have to build at least 51% of the aircraft for you to be able to do your own maintenance. So, if you want to go that route you'd have to factor in the cost of the tools, space and time to build the airplane. If you bought an already built plane, you're going to be paying someone to maintain it, so the only savings then will be the cheaper parts from it being experimental as opposed to certified. The other trap is if you want to be able to fly in IMC, which I do. LSA aircraft can't be flown in IMC in NZ, so unless the CAA changes the rules in the future, LSA is completely off the cards. That leaves me with way fewer options as I'd need an aircraft that can get the Special Category - Amateur Built airworthiness certificate, rather than one that will end up with a Special Category - Experimental certificate. This is why I'm building the Sling. It can get IFR approval, but it is still not cheap. My budget for the build is around $400,000, which is right up there with a new-ish Piper or Cessna anyway. It will still be worth it in the long run due to doing my own maintenance and the fact that it can carry more than a 172 while flying faster and burning less fuel, but it will take many years of flying before those savings will offset the high cost of buying and building the aircraft. The reason I bought the Cherokee is because it will take me a few years yet to finish the Sling and I am tired of renting in the mean time. Over January and February the panel is getting upgraded with a full glass Garmin solution. End of it all, the plane will owe me around $170,000. If I budget for $200 an hour and flew around 100 hours a year, the Cherokee will last me several years before it becomes as expensive as the entry cost of the Sling. All in all, if you build an LSA yourself and all you want to do is some VFR flying, then yes, experimental is much cheaper than certified. But if you don't want to build it yourself and you want to do IFR flying in IMC, certified aircraft can actually be pretty affordable. I'll still finish the Sling, as it will be a better equipped, easier and cheaper to maintain and more efficient aircraft than the Cherokee, but for the next 3-4 years the Cherokee is going to be a great little IFR machine.
As someone who bought a PA-22 cheap, let me reiterate the point - BUY EXPERIMENTAL. I need to have a com radio installed. We have the radio ($2100) but I cannot put it in since it is going in a certificated aircraft. It requires a avionics tech @ $175-225/hr and I was quoted 10+ hrs for the install. I used to set up ambulances and patrol cars. I CAN do this but not according to the FAA, who could ground the plane if I do the install. Same thing on an alternator conversion - "two days" of work replacing the old brackets & generator with an alternator and its brackets. $2000 quote. BUY EXPERIMENTAL!
I had my A&P before I bought my Tripacer and got my pilot’s certificate. When upgrading radios, I swapped out maintenance with an avionics guy. Eventually I’ll go experimental, thinking of building an experimental Super Pacer…
@@printbr Affordable is relative, but I get exactly what you're saying. It should for sure reduce insurance rates. The cost of the plane itself will be what it is either way.
In my own case, flying motivated me enough to first buy 11 acres of rural property out of town a ways (45 years ago), to at first fly ultralights and later my RANS S-7 out of. After 28 years my strip was steadily getting encroached upon by new residential construction so I sold out for a shitpot amount of money (due to the increased land value of course) and I used that money to buy 40 acres 2 miles away, out in the boonies once again. Then I bought another 30 acres below when the rancher family who owned it for 100 years hung it up, so I now have 70 acres, all paid for, and on paper I'm a millonaire! All thanks to the initial motivation flying gave me, point being....flying has been very good to me financially in a backasswards way. All this on a construction worker's wages BTW.
@@Xatzimi Ha ha! All true though! I can see though how just "dabbling" in aviation could be on a different financial level, like paying hourly on a rental aircraft as one example. Twice, I lived in two different hangars after moving onto new property, the hangar/shop being the first structure to go up, the house secondary. Took showers with a 5 gallon bucket hanging from the rafters, had to haul water, no power until my solar system went in, point being it was not easy at all but looking back it all paid off in spades.
Inspiring story. Not really repeatable nowadays. Even cheap land is expensive so most people rent since owning any form of land is out of the scope of the average person who doesn't already own land.
My last annual was $11,000.00. For an airplane that cost $22,500.00. That was with no engine work. It doesn’t matter what you buy, airplane parts cost money. A lot of money. The op is right, experimental is cheaper. But remember: Some guy, who never built a plane in his life, builds a plane in his garage while knocking back some brewskis. Do you feel lucky? Flying and aircraft ownership is expensive. I know. I’ve been flying since 1965.
As a helicopter PPL who just flies for fun, the struggle is real. Barrier to entry is way higher on helos, "affordable" experimentals are death traps and by the time they get good, theyre the cost of certified birds.
All good advice, with one addition. While I have a certified aircraft, Bonanza, and it is very expensive, one way lessen the cost is ask your local A&P if they would be willing to sign off on some of the things owners are “allowed” to do. Remember there are two statements in the Regs that allow pilots/owners to do much of the standard maintenance. We can do “replacement of small standard parts not involving complex assembly operations“ and we are “are authorized to perform preventive maintenance and other maintenance if persons are working under the supervision of certified mechanics and repairman”. As an example, he allows me open up all of the inspection panels for my annual and do some of the simple maintenance items for my annual. Saves me some serious hours at $140 per hour. Personally I find my fuel and engine costs are the biggest expense. New engine and installed, over 60k. Fuel at 13-15 gallons an hour, over a 3 hour trip, ends up being a small fortune. Lastly, I had planned on buying an experimental, just limited in what serves my mission and didn’t want to spend 4-5 years building a plane versus that time flying one.
Your points are very valid. You have to know: NOBODY sells an aircraft that is 100% done. Most of the times you need to address things like lighting, radios, etc. Expect to invest the amount you purchased it for within the first three years again. Make a list what matters to you most. Make a list what missions your aircraft will be used for. Basically, the only thing you can do (if you want to go with a certified aircraft) is: - C172 (the older ones do have a better payload....) - P28A Beech, SIAI, Mooney... are out of reach for most people financially - and sourcing parts can be a nightmare. I own a P28A, bought it relatively cheap - but have almost invested the purchasing price within the first year (yes, I could have stretched it further out but honestly: Lights are crucial if you fly at night. Changing the magnetos (and going with an electronic ignition)... yes, costs time. But you don't want to be sitting around with a dead magneto just a couple of days before you wanted to go on vacation with your aircraft. Having a second radio is a must if you fly within busy airspaces. Yes, you *can* do without. But I don't like the idea. Reliable is good. Fix things upfront helps keeping the costs in control as well as planning what cost comes up next. Experimental... is a valid path to go, true. In Europe you do have the problem that some countries do not allow certain experimentals in which is problematic. In addition you really need to know and trust the builder. I have seen too many shortcuts taken by a builder. And building it for myself... yes, sure. But I don't have the time (and I'd rather fly than build). In EASA-Space you have the ability do define a maintenance program for your aircraft yourself - which helps a lot. You can do a lot of stuff yourself (an A&P has to sign it off, though). Example? I changed the starter myself. Wasn't a big deal.
I guess as someone in the Millenial-Zoomer transition generation should just scrap the idea of flying then, after paying my living expenses I only have a couple hundred dollars left over each month for savings 😔
@@ChristoffRevan not necessarely - there are plenty of relatively cheap aircrafts around. And... looking at the Experimentals... they are a lot of bang for the buck (mostly 2-seater - but that's better than no aircraft IMHO). Besides, I wasn't able to buy an aircraft in my 20s, too...
I affordability is 100% to blame on the FAA. They sare still certifying airplanes like it's 1950 yet our manufacturing process is so much more advanced. We have much better toleranceb and new materials that should make certifying aircraft cheaper. Additionally the FAA rules of getting A&P certification has led to a masive shortage. There are dozen of other regulations that are adding to GA costs. MOSAIC will help but a lot more needs to be done.
Governmeny (over) regulation is the cause of far more problems than it solves and so much harder to eliminate than create. Bureacracy is the hazardous waste to freedom's environment.
I started logging my time working on my plane. Maybe that will help me if I want to get my A&P one day. The two week light sport repairman course seems like another good option if you want to make money, repairing light sports only. Thank you for the comment Juan. Love your videos.
I got into aviation at the right time in 2019. I bought my Beechcraft Sierra in 2020 for just 63k! Now they sell for 100k plus but honestly no one is buying them at those rates. Most annuals have cost me 2 to 3k. Because I have no mechanic experience I'm totally OK with a good mechanic doing it for me and I just pay them. Insurance usually runs 2,300 per year as well. I needed 4 seats so an experimental was far out of the question. Don't forget to talk about hangar fees or tie down fees. Here in Kissimmee I was paying 440 a month in 2020 and now it's 590 a month with taxes and we haven't had a single thing added to the hangar to justify them other than demand. I'm paying a car payment each month just to keep the plane indoors! I think the bubble is about to break so if anyone is looking I would say hold off on prices and save their money for when planes come back to normal rates again in the next year or two. Keep on flying buddy, maybe you'll zoom over KISM sometime.
Thanks for this video. I think you are right about certified airplanes going the way of the dodo. The growth in experimental from now will be interesting to see-especially where the regulatory tipping point will be.
Great Video. I concur and realistic. I think you forgot NO MEDICAL for LSA. I just am finishing up helping an RV-12iS builder/owner finish his Phase 1 flight test and giving him training for insurance. I am a CFI and EAA counselor. I am very familiar with RV's, flown them almost 30 yrs, built two, one being My current RV-7. As far as LSA RV-12iS this gents plane flies great. Burring about 4.5 Gal/Hr at about 110-115 kts true. He needs to take the 2 day class ($475) to have inspection authority for the LSA he owns. This is different than EAB (experimental amateur built) airplanes, like my RV-7, which is not an E-LSA. I prefer EAB over E-LSA, but the latter has many advantages and is lower cost and as said no medical. However I like to do aerobatics with top speed around 210 mpg, the RV-7 is worth the premium.
Have to be extremely careful with an experimental when a new pilot. Insurance can crush you. Some plane can’t be insured so any loans for the plane may not be able to be gotten. Or if some is damaged that’s out of pocket. Plus you need to be handy.
The most brillant video I saw since I'm looking for how much it costs to own an airplane... and it's been for more than 20 years! Thank you very much cause it gives me hope. AVGAS is still another issue and another topic but will see.
Ive been looking at the Merlin PSA. An all metal single seat kit plane that can be riveted together in a few weeks and less than 50k brand new...yes please.
Amen. Experimental is nice. My club has an RV-12 as well and while it seems to require just as much maintenance as our 60 year old Cherokee 140, it seems like the maintenance on the RV-12 is just easier even when you have an A&P. It's a nice simple airplane.
I owned and enyojed.a Piper Tri-Pacer PA22-150.for over 10 years. I alternated flying it with M20Js and PA28RGs and PA38s and C172s fom my flying club. I spent a big fortune in the beloved Tri-Pacer, in maintence, repairs and replacing broken aviónics. All in all it is very expensive owning a cheap old plane. Better off just renting from a club.
Yes. I have health issues that will prevent me from getting an FAA medical, so a sport pilot license is my path into my lifelong dream of aviation. Also, the LSA home build kits are very affordable and it's your own labor for most of it. There are so many ways to avoid paying the historically high prices for any and all things aviation. Sonex Turbo- 160kt cruise at 10k. The 120kt speed limitation is only what it can do at sea level continuous flight, without the turbo, which is factory limited to just a few minutes bc the engine starts to overheat. But at altitude, with cowl vent tweaks, you can run on boost in a turbo-normalized kind of way and make speed. 👏💪
One expense that hasn't been mentioned is taxes. I haven't looked into it, but yearly personal property taxes must be factored into the equation, and like insurance, they vary depending on locality and aircraft type. They even want to know how many hours are flown per year.
LOVED this video! Very much. The great side of experimental is the cost. BUT, be sure you know what you are doing. There are a lot of bad builds. Big negative to experimental. There are a lot of great builds! Great purchase when you find one!! 🙂 And there are a ton of amazing upgrade options in experimental that are just shy of cost prohibitive in the certified planes. IF you want a new plane and are OK with experimental planes - BUT you dont want to build it without help, there are "builder assist programs" where professional mfgs and builders will assist the owner on the build. THOSE planes are amazing and great! Bad side is, those planes are compared to the badly built planes. A true give and take. Keep the blue side up and the videos coming. :-)
1:41 Incorrect, there are many things you can do yourself as a private pilot owner, including the specific item mentioned, re-greasing the wheel bearings. The preventive maintenance list is quite extensive. Ref 14 CFR part 43.
Great video! Wish I had watched this before my purchase of the older 172, but I found out that I can sell this for more than what I paid for it and that is exactly what I'm going to do.
Amen! It amazes me the amounts of money that people waste by sticking with certified aircraft - especially as first or low cost aircraft. I think about the changes and enhancements I've made to my non-certified LSA (many of which have improved *safety* ), non of which I could have done on a certified aircraft.
I did it the smart way. Simply put, I bought a Piper PA38 Tomahawk. I then leased it to a local flying school. Set up a deal with a local qualified mechanic for the 50 hour checks and fit to go. I used it to learn to fly when other students did not have a lesson, essentially I got my PPL for free. Sold the aircraft at a small profit to a flying school in Portugal and enjoying delivering the aircraft in person.
I agree with you 100%. The only way that aviation general aviation will become affordable again is through the experimental route. I am truly hopeful that the mosaic rules will make this possible.
I'm disabled and get 1600 a month disability income, I take care of another disabled person that has no income. I don't even have a dollar until payday on the third. I've got a high interest loan past due on my 03 Cavalier but I'm so grateful to now know I can afford an airplane. Thanks for your wisdom.
If you're unsure if owning an aircraft is within your means, it's not.... From experience, add up all the costs associated with ownership, then multiply that total times 4 for what real world money it takes.
The biggest costs are maintenance for certified aircraft and hangar costs. Eliminate both with a homebuild experimental with folding wings that can be trailered to an air strip. Kitfox, Sonex, and Legal Eagle are three that come to mind, but there are many more. The downside is you won't be hauling your family of four anywhere, but at least you get to experience piloting.
Personally for safety I would never do my own annual inspections as I want another set of eyes on it that may catch something obvioius I am overlooking. Just my personal preference.
In case you have not been following the aviation news, LSA aircraft can now go 250mph, have 4 seats (but only 2 people), higher weight limits. There are many other changes, but you mentioned these.
Great video concept and great execution on the content man. I have too many hobbies as it is now, but aviation is definitely a dream that I hope to take on one day - affordably 😅
Assuming that everyone here is looking for an inexpensive way to approach this occupation my recommendations would be: 1. Buy enough land to support your own airstrip & hanger & build your own house on that property- if you get a good deal & have excess land you can build one or a few houses on 1/4 acre of land each & sell those to get your investment money back... 2. Get your A & P license >>> not only will this ensure that you are NOT limited in the aircraft you can afford to buy & maintain >>> you will be the dude doing annuals ~ 10 hrs at 125- 175 hr = $1 250- with your own Hanger & Airstrip you should be able to have 20- 30 clients in no time & that will pretty much cover all of your own flight expenses simply by doing other pilots' maintenance & upgrades/repairs 3. Buy an aircraft that you can UPGRADE >>> you will save a ton of cash by buying an excellent well maintained aircraft that requires upgrading >>> keep in mind a lot of rich people own planes & hardly ever fly them- for them it is a luxury not a way of LIFE so you can get planes that may have age in years since they rolled off the assembly line... but in maintenance years they are still only 5-10 years old & of course do your homework to make sure that the plane was in fact well maintained even during non flight times 4. You may find that your business booms & soon you are storing other owners planes & facilitating their lease, rent, charter business & of course you may want to do that as a F-T gig so that flying becomes your business- then you get PAID to fly instead of the other way around >>> that to me is the best GAMEPLAN for an affordable way to fly PLEASE NOTE: It is exceptionally important to hanger your planes- in a controlled environment- rust & corrosion are a massive problem in many engine failure/ crash scenarios... you want your plane to be at full performance all the time in case of that unplanned situ where all of a sudden you do need all the max parameters it is built for- in emergencies when you may be subjected to stresses & loads not normally experienced... so being your own BEST & HONEST A & P will pay dividends >>> that really is the actual LIFE Insurance that you need to invest in!
100% agree! The older (and cheaper) the airplane gets the less A&P/IAs willing to work on it as well. Best to build your own airplane, get a repairmens certificate and forget finding an A&P. They just changed the MOSIAC for light sport too, removing a lot of the limitations. Theres a TON of options for light sport experimental and even ultralights (that you can get tail numbered by the FAA). Would recommend looking into Hummel those are very affordable airplanes. Good video!
None of the limitations of LSAs has changed yet. It's all proposed and you won't see it in effect until probably 2025. It's going to make the market for newly designated LSAs insane, too. 172s become light sports, which in turn opens up the market to them to a ton of people who let medical lapse, etc.
I’m slowly coming around to the experimental market as well Main reason for me is the fadec rotax and lycoming engines as well as ease of updating the panel. I used the think certified was inherently safer which you could argue all day long, but you simply can’t have fadec and g500AP’s in the certified market at this point. At the same time I don’t feel great about thousands of additional experimental planes in the air with me with frugal owners maintaining these aircraft, including myself
In process of finishing a Kitfox 4 kit I picked up, complete, for $4k from an estate sale. Around 10k plus 100+ hours with a converted Yamaha Phazer in it. I bought 2 Challenger 1's, and a Challenger 2 as a package that needed covering, updated fuselage brackets, engines rebuilt, and recovered, for $3k. Sold both of the Challenger 1's after the rebuild/recover, which took 112 hours for both, for $10k each. Had $3800 into both, plus my time. Still fly the Challenger 2. Kitfox will cost me close to $400/month, assuming 20 hours flight time a month. Experimental all the way.
In the U.S. all aircraft must carry an airworthiness certificate issued by an FAA inspector or designee. This includes the experimental category. If you're buying a used experimental category aircraft, you'll want to hire an inspector yourself to go over it with a fine toothed comb.
I’m thinking too far ahead. I just started a ground course. The plane I flew on my discovery flight was a small sport plane like that, and I loved it. I want one of those. I love the look of them. But I first need to afford training before thinking about a plane. However, keeping this in the back of my mind will be useful.
Yup! It’s expensive. Still worth it for me. Took a cold, drafty and noisy ride in an RV8 recently. Some great points made, here. But certainly not comparing apples to apples. I just helped a friend buy a 172. Prices, (in US dollars) are mind-blowing. But there’s a reason the 172s are popular. They’re reeeally good.
Don’t buy a new 50K truck and 40K suv every 3-5 years and you can afford a lot. We drive used cars and own a nice zenith that was also paid in cash. All on a middle class income. It’s all about priorities.
As a builder of an RV10 experimental airplane - the recent price hikes by Vans has been very disappointing and pushes these airplanes closer to certified airplane prices
@@FloridaFlying get into part 43 to see what an airplane owner can do in their own airplane. Research the maintenance requirements for SLSA, ESLA, E-AB aircraft. Also understand that most A&Ps are not going to risk their tickets to do a condition inspection on E-AB aircraft. That $100+/hr account for 18 to 30 months of training, years of experience and 10s of thousands of dollars in tooling and shop overhead.
@Journeyman-fn7xe I think $100 an hour for A&P work is reasonable and it’s in their right to charge that much. It is a big expense for many people however. I just want to show people that there is another world of aviation that can be done more affordably.
One thing I have always wondered about is why people always include replacement engines in the calculated hourly cost. If we buy a van or a car we seldom think about depreciation, we just run it until we want a replacement and maybe workout the MPG and searly service and that's it. same with a old house do you save for new heating system in 15 years time or replacement roof/ windows probably not, just live for exch day, and 2000 hours on many light aircraft is so many years in the future you may well have sold it before it comes around
This sounds nice and all but with certified airplanes you can do any work you want as long as it’s “ under the supervision of a mechanic.” Yes they still have to sign off on it and you still need an IA if they aren’t one. But that as well as night fairies and gnomes account for most non-super major work that can be accomplished if you’re smart about it.
Thanks for a very helpful video. I have become quite interested in Aviation (whether I actually pursue it or not) and have often thought that it is a shame to pin your dreams on winning the Lottery in order to pursue the avocation! When I was in the Air Force, Aviation seemed in reach, but as you say, things have gotten out of hand. Your points are well taken.
I basically agree but I'll recommend LSA over kits if available in USA and a really big aspect is fractional ownership. I bought 1/8 of en Evektor, it's not the sexiest LSA, it has some tacky elvis stars but it was available at my local strip for only 7000$, 2007 or so with around 500 hours. It has a hangar and including insurance my part was only about 200$ a year. No one really used it much so the calendar was basically empty, it was like I had my own airplane and I felt basically no financial burden from it. Fractional ownership really cuts down the cost. Just two owners really drops the price and by 8 owners it's like the expense doesn't exist. I looked at fractions of a cessna 172 but the per hour costs were literally 5x higher. the LSA was around 35$ including fuel. The Evektor is a bit slow but an FK14 LSA is similar price and looks and flies much better with the same hour costs. And can even have a ballistic parachute which really gets you into the modern era. Unfortunately certain wise guys in LSA manufacture now suffer from the illusion that the price should triple and they are destroying the concept. JBM, Bristell and Elixir are slipping into way overpriced with 3-400k nonsense. A rotax 912 is basically a briggs and stratton lawnmower engine yet they are talking themselves into an LSA costing multiple new lamborghinis. It's such BS. I did napkin math on how much carbon fiber you need for an LSA size plane and it's around 5k$ in name brand and CF pays for itself in advantages. A complex shape fiberglass hot tub with many nozzles and pumps and ducts etc retails for under 5k so why does a toy plane have to be 300k. A great LSA should easily be doable at 50k. Imagine the volume. If insurance is becoming untenable in USA and it's not legally required I'd consider not having it. If insurance crashes the plane every 10 years why not crash it yourself. Or not.
Comparing the cost of an LSA with a bathtub is ridiculous. You don't need thousands of hours of engineering work in a bathtub. You don't need hundreds of hours of flight testing in a bathtub. You cannot use the materials used in a bathtub to build a plane (think UV resistance, for example). You cannot use the manufacturing methods of a bathtub for a plane (think of voids or air bubbles in the resin, compare the consequences of partial delamination in one and the other). The liability risk and cost for an airplane manufacturer is infinitely high than for a bathtub manufacturer. And so on. You cannot weight your car and compare the price per pound in the materials with how much the car costs, or compare it with a steel enameled bathtub. I say all of the above as a person who is a pilot, an Aeronautical Engineer and who happened to manage a factory that manufactured fiberglass reinforced acrylic bathtubs and whirlpools.
@@adb012 no it isn't ridiculous. try to free yourself from status quo thinking and actually consider things. UV is a simple matter of coating and I assume that outdoor hot tubs have to be pretty UV resistant if you think about it. You don't flight test production LSAs for hundreds of hours, that's a one time thing. A plane can actually be very simple. So no it is not at all ridiculous, it's apt. You probably wouldn't spray on fiberglass for a plane but it could be done. And no matter how meticulously it has to be hand laid up, that's not 200k extra. That's a house in difference. Think a little.
I fly professionally for a legacy carrier and have zero debt and make good money and there is no way I am buying a plane. New, used, certified or experimental. As fun as GA flying is, it just is ridiculously expensive. I will stick to renting one 2 or 3 times a year. It is much cheaper and less of a hassle.
I’m part of a club that shares an RV-12iS. 55/hr, 10k to buy in and 140/month for insurance and hanger. If you split the actual flying cost with another owner pilot, the price decreases even more. And even better, all the owners can help each other be good safe pilots.
My bil rented a cirrus for a week. It was a 30th birthday gift. Got to use top notch equipment and then return it. Flew from LA to Eugene, side trip to Madras, OR (I got to join that leg).
wow! This is brilliant! I've always dreamed of becoming a pilot, and this video makes it seem much closer. I mean combine this with getting a light sport pilots license and you could probably get into the air pretty cheap. Either this or building or buying an ultralight is my other option.
My eventual goal is to own either a two or four seater, and the aircraft I like best so far is the Pipistrel Alpha Trainer. It combines relative affordability with IFR-capable flight and a reasonable range. Currently, they start at $90k - $100k, but that will probably go up by the time I could purchase one.
Have to be able to do your own work and anticipate parts needs, be very patient about finding value, register experimental, find cheap parking, use for business and write off costs, insure and operate very judicially, take flying and maintenance very seriously.
As the owner of a flight school, I am stuck with certified aircraft for training and rental even under MOSAIC (which I’m not a fan of, for other reasons). Also, if the owner of an ELSA does work on their own plane and screws something up, that $800 condition inspection you tease will quickly turn into an $8000 inspection. Unless of course you find an unscrupulous mechanic to pencil whip it. I’m not a mechanic, and even though I’ve been flying for 20+ years I could not imagine going to a two day course and then attempting to work on my aircraft. With all that said, I’m as frustrated as the next guy with the high cost of certified parts. But to anyone watching this video who is a student pilot seeking a commercial pilot certificate because of the alleged “pilot shortage” we hear about in the news… be careful if you purchase an ELSA. Many DPEs won’t do check rides in experimental aircraft, or the owner’s insurance company will require the DPE to have some time in make and model before the check ride.
Nice, very quick summary! Thanks so much for touching on so many points in a very understandable way. Today, all my children and grandchildren live on a property here with me in Oregon. Take up my children and grandchildren one at a time in a 2-seater removes a lot of what happens when you can bring up 3 kids at a time. So the value for a 2-seater side by side is greatly reduced to me. My sights are on 4, though open to 6. I suspect this takes me beyond the mainstream experimental kit marketplace and certainly makes me hold short of the idea of a light-sport to save money. Still, thanks for expanding my thinking!
I pay less than 2k a year for my '56 Bonanza. Can still find parts for my plane and there is now an AC out there for classic aircraft where you can find an off the shelf part.
If all you want to do is fly for fun, an ultralight is hard to beat. Cheap and easy to maintain, some can be folded and stored in a garage. There are plenty downsides as well. Most are very slow and have short ranges. Most have open cockpit designs, so obviously aren’t heated or cooled. Most are not designed to fly in anything more than mild weather/ wind. The trade off for all the negatives is probably the purest seat of the pants flying available. And you can still afford a house to live in.
I'm not looking to become a pilot.... lol, well not like you but perhaps a Part 103 type pilot? That said, you have touched on a lot of important information here. Certified Parts is one that touched everyone right up to the Presidential Jet. Not too many years ago there was a commercial jet crash that was found to have "Bad" parts.... they were certified but not up to specs & the look in to that caused the Presidential Jet to get rid of parts they sourced from bad part suppliers. SO, even in a Pt103 aircraft we'd be needing nuts/bolts that were of a grade that would cost more than the stuff at Home Depot/Lowe's. And I'd be looking for the least expensive so I hope/pray that if you read this that everyone would look to make sure they had parts that were right for the plane you're in. Lots of rip-offs in the parts industry. You need the "grade" to be correct & true. peace
3 - 4 years ago there was a gazillion listings in Controller for Piper Cherokees. Now there are very few and the asking prices for the few that are available are nuts.
I bought an amateur built aircraft. I work on it myself, and get an AME to go over it. Uncertified parts are also significantly cheaper. Still expensive as heck.
TIP #6: You have to be very passionate about aviation. Even though these tips are for saving money, you will still invest a lot into an airplane. You have to love it and be willing to make sacrifices for it. Not everyone can afford an airplane, but these are steps in the right direction.
It would be nice if I could just get an airplane for transportation. It would really help with super long commutes. But that is nearly impossible in today's GA.
Reason I would never buy experimental is the chance that an “amateur” put it together and or worked on it. (Amateurs that maybe have never worked or built anything before) No offense but there’s a reason not just anyone can fix or work on everything on a certified aircraft…with good reason lol
When I was taking the ground course, I was told "Remember... if God had meant for Man to fly... He would have given us more... MONEY."
@@ZenZaBill just replace "God" with "government" and your statement will be 100% true.
Fair point -- the gov't has their hands in our pockets pretty deep. Their "job" as they see it is to tell us what we cannot do, and regulate and tax everything "they" say we can do. @@stevecunningham6821
Being a certified pilot since 02/1982, and the only airplane I can afford is the MS Flight Simulator.
Try playing in DCS VR. I can barely afford that. computer was 3k total, headset was 1k, modules and maps were like 500, hotas was 500. Oh and I still don't have good enough performance, the 3080 is a hard bottleneck now. If I could afford a 2k 4090 I'd be good... I just can't justify spending that much on one part.
@@jeremiahmcelroy2726you just shelled out $5k on a rig to fly fake planes. Meanwhile the OP can actually fly a real plane.
@@jeremiahmcelroy2726 Just wait for the 3k 5090
Yeah, same here. I got my ticket in 09, got about 150 hours and didn't fly for a while. Got back into it last year and yikes! Not to mention the attitude around GA is garbage. No one can afford to fly for fun anymore. Additionally, it's the same old airplanes I was flying in 09 with another 4000 hours on them. The attitude of owners/flight schools is also garbage. If you're not going 141/ATP, apparently you're not serious... well, duh... Didn't I say I wanted to fly for fun? Is it illegal or something?
@@jeremiahmcelroy2726 The 3080 is not a bottleneck for DCS. DCS ITSELF contains the bottlenecks.. inside its legacy code. You can get a decent (non VR) performance out of a 2030 or a 1660 even. The solution is not an every increasingly beefy GPU at all. You can search for vids testing and explaining this in depth. It just ain't so. Memory, SSD, DDR4/5 and caching is far more important. VR requires a lot of tweaking your setup is not the problem, your settings are.
My advice is not to be poor. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk. 👍
The gap ever widens between rich and poor.
Previous generations sold mine out to the lowest bidder.
@@hebedabber2770 People blame previous generations, but honestly we've done a lot to ruin our own generation as well. By over-regulating businesses and overtaxing everyone we've forced small businesses to shut down and force a monopoly. Then to add salt to the wound the open immigration policy has allowed way to much uneducated labor into the country forcing additional competition for the already monopolized corporate jobs. This combination has provided the corps in a no fail situation where they can pay nothing (whatever the given minimum wage is at the time) and just raise prices to offset minimum wage changes while also outlasting any competition far before it can become meaningful. Add in automation which only exacerbates the issue and there you have it. Too many uneducated people and no jobs or a couple poorly paying jobs.
College isn't doing much better since they've taken federal aid and used it as an opportunity to hike prices. Now it is more unattainable than ever or even worse, the debt accrued is impossible to pay off.
Most of the above issues actually happened in the last 10-20 years and were heavily pushed by our own generation at their own expense.
@@oceanbytez847
Who's "we"?
G.I. gen/silent-gen are largely responsible for the immigration and nationality act of 65'.
Silent-gen/boomers are responsible for shipping most of our industrial capacity off to china and the rest of the third world.
Those same generations are the ones who control those monopolies you mentioned. Not to mention they're the same ones who made college unaffordable.
Gen-x/gen-y are underrepresented in the house and senate.
Previous generations sold out their own children's future to the lowest bidder so they could waste away in margaritaville.
@@hebedabber2770 The other generations have outnumbered boomers for quite a while, so why is the government so geriatric?
Younger generations are unwilling to take on that responsibility, as evidenced by you trying to blame boomers for everything.
Facts
The two happiest times for me was when I first bought my airplane (Cessna 177 Cardinal) and when I finally sold it. Although I could afford to own and fly it, I just couldn’t come to terms with the never ending outflow of money.
seems like fractional ownership at a club is better and is another alternative as going experimental.
Sounds like owning a boat… great to have.. enjoy it… but residual upkeep, storage, insurance and inspections add up. The annual use doesn’t justify the costs at the end of the year. Glad I saw this.. just getting ready to retire and looking into flight
@@russcate1510 I guess it’s all about having good experiences and creating memories. I certainly don’t regret having owned an airplane for that reason alone.
The three F's of life my friend. If it flies floats or farts, you don't want it.
@@vsznry Fractional ownership can be good if EVERYONE gets along, if EVERYONE has relatively common goals like adhering to the rules, returning the plane on time, not hogging the aircraft, returning it in a clean flyable condition, EVERYONE pays their dues in a timely manner, EVERYONE is willing to pony up and pay any special assessments for unexpected repairs that quickly deplete the reserve, and EVERYONE is willing to confront anyone that is not complying. When was the last time you saw a group where everyone got along without conflict?
The second secret to affordable flying is to live in an aviation community. There are quite a few of these in Florida. Mine has about 30 homes with hangers along with a 2700 ft. grass runway. In addition to having no hanger fees (one of the biggest costs of owning an airplane) we have two instructors and three aviation mechanics as neighbors. Many are either active or retired airline pilots, and all have a genuine love of flying. I find the cost of living here very little more than anywhere else and I trust my neighbors to look out for my interests as I respect theirs. Check it out!
That is one of my biggest dreams in life. I have been looking for an aviation community near my work here at the space Coast. It seems like the only one that’s around this side is in Massey Airpark about an hour north of where I live currently.
Of all the flying communities I have seen, I don’t know if I’ve ever come across an “affordable” one. 😂
all those folks from Florida came from up north money and didn't make their money in Florida the median income in FL is like 59K good luck buying anything flying even a remote control with that income
Those are mostly million dollar houses now😆.
So the affordable point of entry begins with owning a multimillion dollar property with a hangar for a garage?
Many people are obviously unaware that that the process to get an experimental aircraft off the ground requires multiple inspections by the FAA during the build such as checking inside the wings before they are skinned closed. Checking that the correct AIRCRAFT hardware is used throughout anywhere that it is required. Typically, experimental aircraft are built stronger than certified aircraft. See the G limits and you'll find experimental aircraft can usually withstand a lot more than a certified airplane. Most people who build experimental airplanes are craftsman. Many build "fast build" kits where the factory, such as Van's, has built most of the structure and the "builder" puts it together like a model airplane and then adds engine, wiring, avionics, paint etc. If you ever have a chance to see on opened up during the inspection I wager you'll be impressed by the build quality.
This kind of thing really infuriates me and is the reason I gave up on GA. There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING, that is "affordable" about aviation of any stripe or shape. If I had won the big money lottery, then it might be affordable. But then you account for the outrageous amount of time, effort, study, checkrides, etc, then it becomes very unpractical very fast. GA needs drastic changes very fast or it will die out very soon.
It's not supposed to be. According to some, the plebs should stay on the ground.
I have been leaning starting towards the self launch moto glider route to get my license. less expensive and less restrictions than lsa atm.
@@rogerpha1398 start with sailplanes, then self-launched motor gliders and then touring motor gliders. Basically full aircraft with overlong wings
I bought into a partnership with an arrow for less than what I paid for my truck. Cost me $250 a month. I have noticed some people equate affordable with free. It’s going to be free. Try harder
Pal, it’s all about your priorities. I’ve flown for the last 20 years it was tough in the beginning kids,the house, collage. That said an experimental aircraft was a wonderful way to keep flying. I agree it’s not cheap what really is ? I have friends with way more money into boats, campers, and motorcycles the I do in aviation. Paid 35k for the current airplane , a Europa XS goes 150 mph on 5 gallons an hour.
Don’t give up there is a experimental in every price point, best of luck
G
In 1988 as a young student pilot (
I’m based out of N12 right now , I do most of my flying out of there , have you been there recently?
Not in in many years. I was based there 1988-1992, some good memories. I actually learned a lot from the old time pilot-owners in those days. Maybe will fly in some day to check it out once again! @@nossonyoffe3805
He would have been correct about not being able to afford it today.
In your day, it was possible.
@@hebedabber2770
Your statement is as ignorant as the "if you have to ask, you cant afford it" statement.
@@jdwilk5023
Fuel prices alone have gone exponentially since 88.
I am totally with you buddy. I came from the military aviation world and really wanted a good 4 seater. Rented a cirrus for a while, was thinking of buying and then I saw the numbers, I ran the numbers so many times and I could not believe how expensive it is to own a cirrus. I ended up building a RV-10 with a lot of help and now I have what is in my mind the most affordable four seater on the market, put in all the good stuff, Thunderbolt IO540 265HP AC, Oxygen, leather, fancy 3 Gucci Garmin G3X Beringer wheels and brakes . Never thought to go this way but the numbers were so good I had to give it try. All that under 350K with builder assist.
That’s my dream plane right there! The RV-10 is a true 4 seat experimental. (Way cooler than a Cirrus too)
How did a $112k kit with quickbuild come out to a $350k finish? Just wondering what extras was added that made it so high. I calculated a Lycoming io360 $60k, Avionics $25k, add $10k for misc we are still about $208k. Wonder where the extra $150k go. Just curious and want to learn about the expenses and what i'm missing if you don't mind sharing.
@@addictedtopussy69 Following to see the reply
I'm looking into buiding RV10. How did you run up to $350k?
WTF that's more than my house.
Thanks a lot for sharing this video. I fully agree with all you said. But let me add just one thing here about experimental aircrafts. I have built my own RV-12 which I fly and maintain myself for the last 5 years. It is still a quite expensive hobby and it takes a good portion of my annual income. There is no such thing like cheap in aviation.
The one thing I enjoyed flying more than anything else.
The earth (ground) is our play ground. Sometimes when you're engulfed in a situation. Sometimes you need a different perspective. Flying gave me that perspective.
Being able to look down at all those little people, driving their little cars, with all their little problems. Helped me realize my problems weren't as big as I made them out to be.
For those pilots in the snowbelt states, it is highly desirable to obtain hanger storage, which is also becoming more difficult to find, and ridiculously expensive when one becomes available.
Depends on where you are. I know of a couple fields that had open hanger space, being used by the City for stowage and the like. But if you're in the big cities, where flying is controlled and popular, you're probably still out of luck.
Hanger space in AZ is a hard find as well.
I looked into getting started in aviation, and did it pretty much as you described at the beginning of the video. I saw the prices on 'certified aircraft' and immediately noped out. I didn't even know there was a difference or another option other than certified factory built aircraft. This video just opened up a whole new world, a new fantastic point of view.
I complete agree with everything you said! Though, for clarity, my video is about the planes I think are the "best" that cost less than 100k to buy (basically my favourites). Agreed that these dinosaur certified planes will eat you alive if you buy them. Here's a fun fact, In Canada, just owning any experimental plane gives you full unrestricted authority to do any work or inspections you want. I'm in the middle of a full panel upgrade in my RV-3 (that I didn't build) and I don't know what the heck I'm doing 😉 Thanks for the video, big fan of the channel. Cheers from the frozen north
Totally agreed. I’m up in Canada also. Owner of an RV-6A. I did a panel upgrade, GTN650, GTX335 ADSB transponder out, and Dynon auto-pilot. All work done by myself. Sure, I have an AME, look over my work, but the savings are wonderful. Extremely high value for the small cost. I even had an airline pilot sit in my plane and comment, that my plane has better navigation features than the older Airbus he flies. Just try to even think about all those features in a certified GA aircraft and multiply the cost by 5X.
Wonder as an American If can certify my LS expermentals in Canada?
Good shit for both him and you for not being inflammatory and just being rational human beings. Been following you for like a year and a half but it really is mainly just for entertainment I'm probably going to go for a paraglider or hang-glider myself until my financial situation drastically changes
@@danstein86being an experimental aircraft can you use it for further flight training like interment rating and your commercial license in Canada? I’m looking into buying one have my PPL already but renting is tuff as I have to travel min an 45min
@@sledman3000 for flight training for an instrument rating, yes an experimental aircraft that has been registered for instrument flight capability can be used for instrument flight training. Those hours of training with an instructor will count. HOWEVER, your actual flight test will need to be done in a certified aircraft. So further training will be required to get familiar with the flight school’s certified aircraft. The avionics and controls will take a good additional 5-10 hours of familiarization.
I store my CH 750 outdoors. I cound a huge roll of surplus Army canvas online and used my neighbor's leather stitching machine to make a cover. I made some standoffs for all the sky facing surfaces that I use under the cover during hail season so I don't get any damage for that. A hangar here is $400 per month.Outdoor storage off the ramp in a grass field is only $50,00 per month. There is an electrical pedestal I can pull up to incase I need electricity for something. SO between automotive fuel and outdoor storage, the low speed of the airplane, I am saving a bunch on everything including insurance which is only $1175 per year. So yes, Light Sport is definietly a good way to go. The fuel economy with the SUbaru is better than my truck so if the weather is right I can go visit someone 300 miles away, get there faster and cheaper. When I was a kid back in the early 60s GA was growing like a weed. There were a ton of retired used WWII military observation planes available for next to nothing so a lot of just plain old blue collar working stiffs like me could to afford to own a plane AND fly whenever they liked. SOmeone should do a study on the annual income levels need to support the habit. That might be interesting to see.
More than us. Haha. If you have to ask you can't afford it.
I made the decision to get my license in Canada. After talking to some friends who have their ppl they all recommended just getting my ultra permit and going for something like a zenith 601 HD. It'll be a fraction of the cost for entrance and a fraction for ownership costs. Yes there are limitations but for what I'm looking for it just makes more sense.
Affordable aviation, its almost an oxymoron. For me aviation has been a dream since I was 4 years old. Last summer I finally got into ppg. The equipment was not cheap but compared with other aviation it was way more affordable. Now when I fly i spend about 10 bucks on fuel and a few bucks for oil. Its not going to get me and my family to Florida but just having the ability to lay out my wing at a local park and takeoff into the sky is such an amazing feeling. If you dream of aviation and cannot afford general aviation look into PPG. I fly with a Coast Guard helicopter pilot who says he has more fun flying his PPG. It certainly comes with limitations (weather) being the main limitation but when you finally get a nice calm day and lift off into the sky its an absolutely unforgettable experience. It has truly changed my life. I still hope to get into a LSA someday but for now and forever, I will be a PPG pilot.
what is ppg?
powered paraglider?
So I guess as in the younger half of the Millennial generation I should just scrap the idea of flying 😞
Dont ever give up! If its your passion, you will know what to sacrifice or suffer for, to make it happen. Don't let the other comments discourage you, I worked on ejection seats on all models of the F-18 in the navy, and one thing i learned is you have the power to do anything in this life.
I owned a certified plane (1979 Warrior) and now own an experimental (RV-9A). I agree with what you say here. Flying will never be cheap, but experimental is a much better way to go. Cheaper parts and especially cheaper autopilots & other avionics are big factors.
I’m actually very interested in experimental market im going to A&P school n I really want to fly it’s been a dream of mine is it still ridiculous or a little more reasonable to go experimental?
@@killerflamingo9566 still ridiculous but owning a cheap plane with another person can be doable. Go get that A&P and you’ll be around people crazy enough to do that.
@killerflamingo9566 go experimental! It is still much more affordable than certified
@@crufflerdoug what if I’m THAT special kinda crazy?
I’m actually thinking of building a long ez
Light sport can be a bit restrictive. But there are lots of used experimentals out there. The sticking point is you still need an A&P to sign off on the annual "condition inspection". The difference here is you can do all of the work yourself. The A&P signs off on it. This may seem odd but there are A&Ps out there that are busy or older and retired, and do not need the work. They will inspect, recommend what needs to be done, and then you complete the tasks. Once you know the aircraft, you will have it all ready before inspection. This is not a big deal. For people that don't want to build an entire aircraft consider purchasing a partially completed kit. Often they can be purchased for much less than a new kit and sometimes they are almost completed. If you are the builder that finishes it, then you are the builder of record. You are entitled to the repairman certificate on that aircraft and now you can do all the maintenance and sign off on condition inspections. Experimental is really the way to go. If you tie down outside, get some good covers made. Make friends with someone that has a hangar so occasional maintenance can be done inside. That is the cheapest way to own your own aircraft.
I know this video was made to ease the worries of getting into GA. But as someone who never got in I can now say it's unobtainable for me at this time. Very informative video. Wish the industry was different.
Our 5 person group has shared a Diamond DA40 for many years now. All fixed expenses are shared equally. Fill up the tank when you’re done and then an hourly engine replacement accrual based on hours flown. Shared google calendar. Has been a fantastic way to fly at a very low cost.
I totally agree. LSA is the future of personal aviation. Here in Europe the number of light aircraft (a little bit different terminology depending on the country) completely exceeds the general aviation airplanes in the registry. You only need an annual inspection from a recognised examiner and that’s it. MOGAS (auto fuel) is also much cheaper than AVGAS 100LL (went up recently)
This is the most practical tips for affordable flying that I’ve come across. I chuckle when I see someone listing an old Bonanza as “affordable“. Depends on who your audience is. For a lot of people this is the most economical way to get into flying.
Experimental is good, but at least here in New Zealand, it depends on a few things. I'm building a Sling TSi but also bought a 1972 Piper Cherokee two months ago.
The thing with experimental in NZ is you have to build at least 51% of the aircraft for you to be able to do your own maintenance. So, if you want to go that route you'd have to factor in the cost of the tools, space and time to build the airplane. If you bought an already built plane, you're going to be paying someone to maintain it, so the only savings then will be the cheaper parts from it being experimental as opposed to certified.
The other trap is if you want to be able to fly in IMC, which I do. LSA aircraft can't be flown in IMC in NZ, so unless the CAA changes the rules in the future, LSA is completely off the cards. That leaves me with way fewer options as I'd need an aircraft that can get the Special Category - Amateur Built airworthiness certificate, rather than one that will end up with a Special Category - Experimental certificate.
This is why I'm building the Sling. It can get IFR approval, but it is still not cheap. My budget for the build is around $400,000, which is right up there with a new-ish Piper or Cessna anyway. It will still be worth it in the long run due to doing my own maintenance and the fact that it can carry more than a 172 while flying faster and burning less fuel, but it will take many years of flying before those savings will offset the high cost of buying and building the aircraft.
The reason I bought the Cherokee is because it will take me a few years yet to finish the Sling and I am tired of renting in the mean time. Over January and February the panel is getting upgraded with a full glass Garmin solution. End of it all, the plane will owe me around $170,000.
If I budget for $200 an hour and flew around 100 hours a year, the Cherokee will last me several years before it becomes as expensive as the entry cost of the Sling.
All in all, if you build an LSA yourself and all you want to do is some VFR flying, then yes, experimental is much cheaper than certified. But if you don't want to build it yourself and you want to do IFR flying in IMC, certified aircraft can actually be pretty affordable. I'll still finish the Sling, as it will be a better equipped, easier and cheaper to maintain and more efficient aircraft than the Cherokee, but for the next 3-4 years the Cherokee is going to be a great little IFR machine.
As someone who bought a PA-22 cheap, let me reiterate the point - BUY EXPERIMENTAL. I need to have a com radio installed. We have the radio ($2100) but I cannot put it in since it is going in a certificated aircraft. It requires a avionics tech @ $175-225/hr and I was quoted 10+ hrs for the install. I used to set up ambulances and patrol cars. I CAN do this but not according to the FAA, who could ground the plane if I do the install. Same thing on an alternator conversion - "two days" of work replacing the old brackets & generator with an alternator and its brackets. $2000 quote. BUY EXPERIMENTAL!
I had my A&P before I bought my Tripacer and got my pilot’s certificate. When upgrading radios, I swapped out maintenance with an avionics guy. Eventually I’ll go experimental, thinking of building an experimental Super Pacer…
A lot of cool fast 4 seaters may be available after MOSAIC as well. Something like the Sling TSi could come in as a S-LSA.
music to my ears!
But it won’t be in the affordable category
@@printbr Affordable is relative, but I get exactly what you're saying. It should for sure reduce insurance rates. The cost of the plane itself will be what it is either way.
Mosaic? Any year now, any year.
@@glennstubbs8232 The first quarter of 2025 isn't unrealistic.
In my own case, flying motivated me enough to first buy 11 acres of rural property out of town a ways (45 years ago), to at first fly ultralights and later my RANS S-7 out of. After 28 years my strip was steadily getting encroached upon by new residential construction so I sold out for a shitpot amount of money (due to the increased land value of course) and I used that money to buy 40 acres 2 miles away, out in the boonies once again. Then I bought another 30 acres below when the rancher family who owned it for 100 years hung it up, so I now have 70 acres, all paid for, and on paper I'm a millonaire! All thanks to the initial motivation flying gave me, point being....flying has been very good to me financially in a backasswards way. All this on a construction worker's wages BTW.
Cool and funny :)
Good man
We found him, guys. The one man who made a small fortune in aviation!
@@Xatzimi Ha ha! All true though! I can see though how just "dabbling" in aviation could be on a different financial level, like paying hourly on a rental aircraft as one example. Twice, I lived in two different hangars after moving onto new property, the hangar/shop being the first structure to go up, the house secondary. Took showers with a 5 gallon bucket hanging from the rafters, had to haul water, no power until my solar system went in, point being it was not easy at all but looking back it all paid off in spades.
Inspiring story. Not really repeatable nowadays. Even cheap land is expensive so most people rent since owning any form of land is out of the scope of the average person who doesn't already own land.
My last annual was $11,000.00. For an airplane that cost $22,500.00. That was with no engine work. It doesn’t matter what you buy, airplane parts cost money. A lot of money. The op is right, experimental is cheaper. But remember: Some guy, who never built a plane in his life, builds a plane in his garage while knocking back some brewskis. Do you feel lucky? Flying and aircraft ownership is expensive. I know. I’ve been flying since 1965.
As a helicopter PPL who just flies for fun, the struggle is real. Barrier to entry is way higher on helos, "affordable" experimentals are death traps and by the time they get good, theyre the cost of certified birds.
counterpoint: all helicopters are death traps. Some are just less death trappy than others 😉✌️
All good advice, with one addition. While I have a certified aircraft, Bonanza, and it is very expensive, one way lessen the cost is ask your local A&P if they would be willing to sign off on some of the things owners are “allowed” to do. Remember there are two statements in the Regs that allow pilots/owners to do much of the standard maintenance. We can do “replacement of small standard parts not involving complex assembly operations“ and we are “are authorized to perform preventive maintenance and other maintenance if persons are working under the supervision of certified mechanics and repairman”. As an example, he allows me open up all of the inspection panels for my annual and do some of the simple maintenance items for my annual. Saves me some serious hours at $140 per hour. Personally I find my fuel and engine costs are the biggest expense. New engine and installed, over 60k. Fuel at 13-15 gallons an hour, over a 3 hour trip, ends up being a small fortune. Lastly, I had planned on buying an experimental, just limited in what serves my mission and didn’t want to spend 4-5 years building a plane versus that time flying one.
If you live close by me I’ll trade A&P/IA services and flight training in exchange for use of the plane. Win-win.
When I owned an experimental, this was my biggest issue. NOBODY would touch them in my area.
Your points are very valid. You have to know: NOBODY sells an aircraft that is 100% done. Most of the times you need to address things like lighting, radios, etc. Expect to invest the amount you purchased it for within the first three years again. Make a list what matters to you most. Make a list what missions your aircraft will be used for.
Basically, the only thing you can do (if you want to go with a certified aircraft) is:
- C172 (the older ones do have a better payload....)
- P28A
Beech, SIAI, Mooney... are out of reach for most people financially - and sourcing parts can be a nightmare. I own a P28A, bought it relatively cheap - but have almost invested the purchasing price within the first year (yes, I could have stretched it further out but honestly: Lights are crucial if you fly at night. Changing the magnetos (and going with an electronic ignition)... yes, costs time. But you don't want to be sitting around with a dead magneto just a couple of days before you wanted to go on vacation with your aircraft. Having a second radio is a must if you fly within busy airspaces. Yes, you *can* do without. But I don't like the idea.
Reliable is good. Fix things upfront helps keeping the costs in control as well as planning what cost comes up next.
Experimental... is a valid path to go, true. In Europe you do have the problem that some countries do not allow certain experimentals in which is problematic. In addition you really need to know and trust the builder. I have seen too many shortcuts taken by a builder. And building it for myself... yes, sure. But I don't have the time (and I'd rather fly than build).
In EASA-Space you have the ability do define a maintenance program for your aircraft yourself - which helps a lot. You can do a lot of stuff yourself (an A&P has to sign it off, though). Example? I changed the starter myself. Wasn't a big deal.
I guess as someone in the Millenial-Zoomer transition generation should just scrap the idea of flying then, after paying my living expenses I only have a couple hundred dollars left over each month for savings 😔
@@ChristoffRevan not necessarely - there are plenty of relatively cheap aircrafts around. And... looking at the Experimentals... they are a lot of bang for the buck (mostly 2-seater - but that's better than no aircraft IMHO).
Besides, I wasn't able to buy an aircraft in my 20s, too...
I affordability is 100% to blame on the FAA. They sare still certifying airplanes like it's 1950 yet our manufacturing process is so much more advanced. We have much better toleranceb and new materials that should make certifying aircraft cheaper.
Additionally the FAA rules of getting A&P certification has led to a masive shortage. There are dozen of other regulations that are adding to GA costs.
MOSAIC will help but a lot more needs to be done.
Governmeny (over) regulation is the cause of far more problems than it solves and so much harder to eliminate than create. Bureacracy is the hazardous waste to freedom's environment.
If you want the most affordable solution, start with getting your A&P license. 1st thing after High School.
I started logging my time working on my plane. Maybe that will help me if I want to get my A&P one day. The two week light sport repairman course seems like another good option if you want to make money, repairing light sports only.
Thank you for the comment Juan. Love your videos.
No doubt true and yet another resounding testament to why certified planes are sadly dying out for the average Joe.
It's too strict in USA. Maybe just fly in Mexico 😂
@@FloridaFlyingdoes the light sport repairman course allow you to repair other people's light sport or just your own?
@sizzelot just your own. However there is another course which is about 2 weeks that allows you to work on other peoples light sport airplanes
I got into aviation at the right time in 2019. I bought my Beechcraft Sierra in 2020 for just 63k! Now they sell for 100k plus but honestly no one is buying them at those rates. Most annuals have cost me 2 to 3k. Because I have no mechanic experience I'm totally OK with a good mechanic doing it for me and I just pay them. Insurance usually runs 2,300 per year as well. I needed 4 seats so an experimental was far out of the question. Don't forget to talk about hangar fees or tie down fees. Here in Kissimmee I was paying 440 a month in 2020 and now it's 590 a month with taxes and we haven't had a single thing added to the hangar to justify them other than demand. I'm paying a car payment each month just to keep the plane indoors! I think the bubble is about to break so if anyone is looking I would say hold off on prices and save their money for when planes come back to normal rates again in the next year or two. Keep on flying buddy, maybe you'll zoom over KISM sometime.
And demand doesn’t raise prices. Greed does.
Thanks for this video. I think you are right about certified airplanes going the way of the dodo. The growth in experimental from now will be interesting to see-especially where the regulatory tipping point will be.
Great Video. I concur and realistic. I think you forgot NO MEDICAL for LSA. I just am finishing up helping an RV-12iS builder/owner finish his Phase 1 flight test and giving him training for insurance. I am a CFI and EAA counselor. I am very familiar with RV's, flown them almost 30 yrs, built two, one being My current RV-7. As far as LSA RV-12iS this gents plane flies great. Burring about 4.5 Gal/Hr at about 110-115 kts true. He needs to take the 2 day class ($475) to have inspection authority for the LSA he owns. This is different than EAB (experimental amateur built) airplanes, like my RV-7, which is not an E-LSA. I prefer EAB over E-LSA, but the latter has many advantages and is lower cost and as said no medical. However I like to do aerobatics with top speed around 210 mpg, the RV-7 is worth the premium.
Another benefit of the newer avionics that typically come with a new LSA is that you can earn your Commercial certificate in it.
Have to be extremely careful with an experimental when a new pilot. Insurance can crush you. Some plane can’t be insured so any loans for the plane may not be able to be gotten. Or if some is damaged that’s out of pocket. Plus you need to be handy.
that livery with the channel badge on the tail looks awesome!!
Thank you Ricky!
The most brillant video I saw since I'm looking for how much it costs to own an airplane... and it's been for more than 20 years! Thank you very much cause it gives me hope. AVGAS is still another issue and another topic but will see.
Ive been looking at the Merlin PSA. An all metal single seat kit plane that can be riveted together in a few weeks and less than 50k brand new...yes please.
Amen. Experimental is nice. My club has an RV-12 as well and while it seems to require just as much maintenance as our 60 year old Cherokee 140, it seems like the maintenance on the RV-12 is just easier even when you have an A&P. It's a nice simple airplane.
I owned and enyojed.a Piper Tri-Pacer PA22-150.for over 10 years. I alternated flying it with M20Js and PA28RGs and PA38s and C172s fom my flying club. I spent a big fortune in the beloved Tri-Pacer, in maintence, repairs and replacing broken aviónics. All in all it is very expensive owning a cheap old plane. Better off just renting from a club.
Yes. I have health issues that will prevent me from getting an FAA medical, so a sport pilot license is my path into my lifelong dream of aviation. Also, the LSA home build kits are very affordable and it's your own labor for most of it. There are so many ways to avoid paying the historically high prices for any and all things aviation. Sonex Turbo- 160kt cruise at 10k. The 120kt speed limitation is only what it can do at sea level continuous flight, without the turbo, which is factory limited to just a few minutes bc the engine starts to overheat. But at altitude, with cowl vent tweaks, you can run on boost in a turbo-normalized kind of way and make speed. 👏💪
One expense that hasn't been mentioned is taxes. I haven't looked into it, but yearly personal property taxes must be factored into the equation, and like insurance, they vary depending on locality and aircraft type. They even want to know how many hours are flown per year.
and sales tax on the airplane (with a penalty if you don't file it), and property/sales tax on your hangar, and insurance on your hangar...
The extent of which depends on which state you live in. Check local laws.
LOVED this video! Very much. The great side of experimental is the cost. BUT, be sure you know what you are doing. There are a lot of bad builds. Big negative to experimental. There are a lot of great builds! Great purchase when you find one!! 🙂 And there are a ton of amazing upgrade options in experimental that are just shy of cost prohibitive in the certified planes. IF you want a new plane and are OK with experimental planes - BUT you dont want to build it without help, there are "builder assist programs" where professional mfgs and builders will assist the owner on the build. THOSE planes are amazing and great! Bad side is, those planes are compared to the badly built planes. A true give and take. Keep the blue side up and the videos coming. :-)
1:41 Incorrect, there are many things you can do yourself as a private pilot owner, including the specific item mentioned, re-greasing the wheel bearings. The preventive maintenance list is quite extensive. Ref 14 CFR part 43.
Not really “extensive”. Certainly nothing compared to what you can go with an experimental.
Great video! Wish I had watched this before my purchase of the older 172, but I found out that I can sell this for more than what I paid for it and that is exactly what I'm going to do.
Amen! It amazes me the amounts of money that people waste by sticking with certified aircraft - especially as first or low cost aircraft. I think about the changes and enhancements I've made to my non-certified LSA (many of which have improved *safety* ), non of which I could have done on a certified aircraft.
I did it the smart way. Simply put, I bought a Piper PA38 Tomahawk. I then leased it to a local flying school. Set up a deal with a local qualified mechanic for the 50 hour checks and fit to go. I used it to learn to fly when other students did not have a lesson, essentially I got my PPL for free. Sold the aircraft at a small profit to a flying school in Portugal and enjoying delivering the aircraft in person.
I agree with you 100%. The only way that aviation general aviation will become affordable again is through the experimental route. I am truly hopeful that the mosaic rules will make this possible.
I'm disabled and get 1600 a month disability income, I take care of another disabled person that has no income. I don't even have a dollar until payday on the third. I've got a high interest loan past due on my 03 Cavalier but I'm so grateful to now know I can afford an airplane. Thanks for your wisdom.
If you're unsure if owning an aircraft is within your means, it's not....
From experience, add up all the costs associated with ownership, then multiply that total times 4 for what real world money it takes.
The biggest costs are maintenance for certified aircraft and hangar costs. Eliminate both with a homebuild experimental with folding wings that can be trailered to an air strip. Kitfox, Sonex, and Legal Eagle are three that come to mind, but there are many more. The downside is you won't be hauling your family of four anywhere, but at least you get to experience piloting.
Personally for safety I would never do my own annual inspections as I want another set of eyes on it that may catch something obvioius I am overlooking. Just my personal preference.
An inspection shouldn’t be out of price range if you’re buying a plane anyways
Grateful for the time you allocated to create this most informative video! Best Regards
In case you have not been following the aviation news, LSA aircraft can now go 250mph, have 4 seats (but only 2 people), higher weight limits. There are many other changes, but you mentioned these.
What is the point of having 4 seats but only 2 people? 🤔
@@GhostZodick So you can rent planes that you normally would not be able to fly.
@@AndyTulenko WOW 🤯, I never thought about that.
@@GhostZodick You should read the NPRM. It's only around 350 pages. It details all the changes.
@@AndyTulenko Thanks for recommending, but I will not. I don't have an airplane yet. Reading 350 pages does nothing but waste my time now 😁
Great video concept and great execution on the content man. I have too many hobbies as it is now, but aviation is definitely a dream that I hope to take on one day - affordably 😅
Assuming that everyone here is looking for an inexpensive way to approach this occupation my recommendations would be:
1. Buy enough land to support your own airstrip & hanger & build your own house on that property- if you get a good deal & have excess land you can build one or a few houses on 1/4 acre of land each & sell those to get your investment money back...
2. Get your A & P license >>> not only will this ensure that you are NOT limited in the aircraft you can afford to buy & maintain >>> you will be the dude doing annuals ~ 10 hrs at 125- 175 hr = $1 250- with your own Hanger & Airstrip you should be able to have 20- 30 clients in no time & that will pretty much cover all of your own flight expenses simply by doing other pilots' maintenance & upgrades/repairs
3. Buy an aircraft that you can UPGRADE >>> you will save a ton of cash by buying an excellent well maintained aircraft that requires upgrading >>> keep in mind a lot of rich people own planes & hardly ever fly them- for them it is a luxury not a way of LIFE so you can get planes that may have age in years since they rolled off the assembly line... but in maintenance years they are still only 5-10 years old & of course do your homework to make sure that the plane was in fact well maintained even during non flight times
4. You may find that your business booms & soon you are storing other owners planes & facilitating their lease, rent, charter business & of course you may want to do that as a F-T gig so that flying becomes your business- then you get PAID to fly instead of the other way around >>> that to me is the best GAMEPLAN for an affordable way to fly
PLEASE NOTE:
It is exceptionally important to hanger your planes- in a controlled environment- rust & corrosion are a massive problem in many engine failure/ crash scenarios... you want your plane to be at full performance all the time in case of that unplanned situ where all of a sudden you do need all the max parameters it is built for- in emergencies when you may be subjected to stresses & loads not normally experienced... so being your own BEST & HONEST A & P will pay dividends >>> that really is the actual LIFE Insurance that you need to invest in!
100% agree! The older (and cheaper) the airplane gets the less A&P/IAs willing to work on it as well. Best to build your own airplane, get a repairmens certificate and forget finding an A&P. They just changed the MOSIAC for light sport too, removing a lot of the limitations. Theres a TON of options for light sport experimental and even ultralights (that you can get tail numbered by the FAA). Would recommend looking into Hummel those are very affordable airplanes. Good video!
None of the limitations of LSAs has changed yet. It's all proposed and you won't see it in effect until probably 2025. It's going to make the market for newly designated LSAs insane, too.
172s become light sports, which in turn opens up the market to them to a ton of people who let medical lapse, etc.
I can afford to buy ms flight sim, but that’s all.
Thank you for demystifying 'experimental' as the name is enough to turn most people (myself included beforehand) away
I’m slowly coming around to the experimental market as well
Main reason for me is the fadec rotax and lycoming engines as well as ease of updating the panel. I used the think certified was inherently safer which you could argue all day long, but you simply can’t have fadec and g500AP’s in the certified market at this point.
At the same time I don’t feel great about thousands of additional experimental planes in the air with me with frugal owners maintaining these aircraft, including myself
The frugal, responsible, and resourceful...not bad company sharing the sky.
In process of finishing a Kitfox 4 kit I picked up, complete, for $4k from an estate sale. Around 10k plus 100+ hours with a converted Yamaha Phazer in it.
I bought 2 Challenger 1's, and a Challenger 2 as a package that needed covering, updated fuselage brackets, engines rebuilt, and recovered, for $3k.
Sold both of the Challenger 1's after the rebuild/recover, which took 112 hours for both, for $10k each. Had $3800 into both, plus my time. Still fly the Challenger 2.
Kitfox will cost me close to $400/month, assuming 20 hours flight time a month.
Experimental all the way.
When buying a used experimental aircraft, how do you know the guy who built it knew what he was doing?
X ray
you get an inspection prior to purchase
In the U.S. all aircraft must carry an airworthiness certificate issued by an FAA inspector or designee. This includes the experimental category. If you're buying a used experimental category aircraft, you'll want to hire an inspector yourself to go over it with a fine toothed comb.
I’m thinking too far ahead. I just started a ground course. The plane I flew on my discovery flight was a small sport plane like that, and I loved it. I want one of those. I love the look of them. But I first need to afford training before thinking about a plane. However, keeping this in the back of my mind will be useful.
How to afford an airplane. #1) be rich!
Yup! It’s expensive. Still worth it for me.
Took a cold, drafty and noisy ride in an RV8 recently.
Some great points made, here. But certainly not comparing apples to apples.
I just helped a friend buy a 172. Prices, (in US dollars) are mind-blowing. But there’s a reason the 172s are popular. They’re reeeally good.
Don’t buy a new 50K truck and 40K suv every 3-5 years and you can afford a lot. We drive used cars and own a nice zenith that was also paid in cash. All on a middle class income. It’s all about priorities.
I like this right here
As a builder of an RV10 experimental airplane - the recent price hikes by Vans has been very disappointing and pushes these airplanes closer to certified airplane prices
So much information wrong with thus video. It does a disservice to anyone just geting started in GA
Could you help me understand what I got wrong?
I thought this was a great video … please, enlighten us!
@@FloridaFlying get into part 43 to see what an airplane owner can do in their own airplane. Research the maintenance requirements for SLSA, ESLA, E-AB aircraft. Also understand that most A&Ps are not going to risk their tickets to do a condition inspection on E-AB aircraft. That $100+/hr account for 18 to 30 months of training, years of experience and 10s of thousands of dollars in tooling and shop overhead.
@Journeyman-fn7xe I think $100 an hour for A&P work is reasonable and it’s in their right to charge that much. It is a big expense for many people however. I just want to show people that there is another world of aviation that can be done more affordably.
it wouldn't hurt to get a A&P license.
this was the video i needed to see. thanks!
One thing I have always wondered about is why people always include replacement engines in the calculated hourly cost. If we buy a van or a car we seldom think about depreciation, we just run it until we want a replacement and maybe workout the MPG and searly service and that's it. same with a old house do you save for new heating system in 15 years time or replacement roof/ windows probably not, just live for exch day, and 2000 hours on many light aircraft is so many years in the future you may well have sold it before it comes around
My first GA flight was in an rv 6 and it was actually surprisingly great. It hold up to the Skyhawks in everything except space that I’m in now
This sounds nice and all but with certified airplanes you can do any work you want as long as it’s “ under the supervision of a mechanic.” Yes they still have to sign off on it and you still need an IA if they aren’t one. But that as well as night fairies and gnomes account for most non-super major work that can be accomplished if you’re smart about it.
Thanks for a very helpful video. I have become quite interested in Aviation (whether I actually pursue it or not) and have often thought that it is a shame to pin your dreams on winning the Lottery in order to pursue the avocation! When I was in the Air Force, Aviation seemed in reach, but as you say, things have gotten out of hand. Your points are well taken.
I basically agree but I'll recommend LSA over kits if available in USA and a really big aspect is fractional ownership. I bought 1/8 of en Evektor, it's not the sexiest LSA, it has some tacky elvis stars but it was available at my local strip for only 7000$, 2007 or so with around 500 hours. It has a hangar and including insurance my part was only about 200$ a year. No one really used it much so the calendar was basically empty, it was like I had my own airplane and I felt basically no financial burden from it. Fractional ownership really cuts down the cost. Just two owners really drops the price and by 8 owners it's like the expense doesn't exist. I looked at fractions of a cessna 172 but the per hour costs were literally 5x higher. the LSA was around 35$ including fuel.
The Evektor is a bit slow but an FK14 LSA is similar price and looks and flies much better with the same hour costs. And can even have a ballistic parachute which really gets you into the modern era. Unfortunately certain wise guys in LSA manufacture now suffer from the illusion that the price should triple and they are destroying the concept. JBM, Bristell and Elixir are slipping into way overpriced with 3-400k nonsense. A rotax 912 is basically a briggs and stratton lawnmower engine yet they are talking themselves into an LSA costing multiple new lamborghinis.
It's such BS.
I did napkin math on how much carbon fiber you need for an LSA size plane and it's around 5k$ in name brand and CF pays for itself in advantages. A complex shape fiberglass hot tub with many nozzles and pumps and ducts etc retails for under 5k so why does a toy plane have to be 300k. A great LSA should easily be doable at 50k. Imagine the volume.
If insurance is becoming untenable in USA and it's not legally required I'd consider not having it. If insurance crashes the plane every 10 years why not crash it yourself. Or not.
Comparing the cost of an LSA with a bathtub is ridiculous. You don't need thousands of hours of engineering work in a bathtub. You don't need hundreds of hours of flight testing in a bathtub. You cannot use the materials used in a bathtub to build a plane (think UV resistance, for example). You cannot use the manufacturing methods of a bathtub for a plane (think of voids or air bubbles in the resin, compare the consequences of partial delamination in one and the other). The liability risk and cost for an airplane manufacturer is infinitely high than for a bathtub manufacturer. And so on. You cannot weight your car and compare the price per pound in the materials with how much the car costs, or compare it with a steel enameled bathtub. I say all of the above as a person who is a pilot, an Aeronautical Engineer and who happened to manage a factory that manufactured fiberglass reinforced acrylic bathtubs and whirlpools.
@@adb012 no it isn't ridiculous. try to free yourself from status quo thinking and actually consider things. UV is a simple matter of coating and I assume that outdoor hot tubs have to be pretty UV resistant if you think about it. You don't flight test production LSAs for hundreds of hours, that's a one time thing. A plane can actually be very simple. So no it is not at all ridiculous, it's apt. You probably wouldn't spray on fiberglass for a plane but it could be done. And no matter how meticulously it has to be hand laid up, that's not 200k extra. That's a house in difference. Think a little.
I fly professionally for a legacy carrier and have zero debt and make good money and there is no way I am buying a plane. New, used, certified or experimental. As fun as GA flying is, it just is ridiculously expensive. I will stick to renting one 2 or 3 times a year. It is much cheaper and less of a hassle.
I’m part of a club that shares an RV-12iS. 55/hr, 10k to buy in and 140/month for insurance and hanger. If you split the actual flying cost with another owner pilot, the price decreases even more. And even better, all the owners can help each other be good safe pilots.
Thank you - from a past plane owner, that was excellent!
My bil rented a cirrus for a week. It was a 30th birthday gift. Got to use top notch equipment and then return it. Flew from LA to Eugene, side trip to Madras, OR (I got to join that leg).
wow! This is brilliant! I've always dreamed of becoming a pilot, and this video makes it seem much closer. I mean combine this with getting a light sport pilots license and you could probably get into the air pretty cheap. Either this or building or buying an ultralight is my other option.
Thank you for your real life thoughts on private aviation!
I honestly started looking into paramotoring because of how expensive the aviation hobby is. I figured that might scratch the itch instead 😋
man oh man, thank you! Im so glad to have seen this before i went out and started "bidding" on a cesna etc. Good info.
I really enjoy your channel. Subscribed. Keep up the good work!
Thank you and welcome to the channel!
Aviation is a small world, before my dad retired, he worked with Jack. I didn't know he had a youtube channel haha.
Thanks so much for this video! I was confused about these discrepancies that you cleared up. Experimental ftw! Hope to make a long ez one day
My eventual goal is to own either a two or four seater, and the aircraft I like best so far is the Pipistrel Alpha Trainer. It combines relative affordability with IFR-capable flight and a reasonable range. Currently, they start at $90k - $100k, but that will probably go up by the time I could purchase one.
Have to be able to do your own work and anticipate parts needs, be very patient about finding value, register experimental, find cheap parking, use for business and write off costs, insure and operate very judicially, take flying and maintenance very seriously.
Great video! I like particularly liked your summary at the end.
As the owner of a flight school, I am stuck with certified aircraft for training and rental even under MOSAIC (which I’m not a fan of, for other reasons). Also, if the owner of an ELSA does work on their own plane and screws something up, that $800 condition inspection you tease will quickly turn into an $8000 inspection. Unless of course you find an unscrupulous mechanic to pencil whip it. I’m not a mechanic, and even though I’ve been flying for 20+ years I could not imagine going to a two day course and then attempting to work on my aircraft. With all that said, I’m as frustrated as the next guy with the high cost of certified parts. But to anyone watching this video who is a student pilot seeking a commercial pilot certificate because of the alleged “pilot shortage” we hear about in the news… be careful if you purchase an ELSA. Many DPEs won’t do check rides in experimental aircraft, or the owner’s insurance company will require the DPE to have some time in make and model before the check ride.
Nice, very quick summary! Thanks so much for touching on so many points in a very understandable way.
Today, all my children and grandchildren live on a property here with me in Oregon. Take up my children and grandchildren one at a time in a 2-seater removes a lot of what happens when you can bring up 3 kids at a time. So the value for a 2-seater side by side is greatly reduced to me. My sights are on 4, though open to 6. I suspect this takes me beyond the mainstream experimental kit marketplace and certainly makes me hold short of the idea of a light-sport to save money.
Still, thanks for expanding my thinking!
Never seen it explained that way. Thanks for the clear content. Cool tail # too. Subscribed.
I pay less than 2k a year for my '56 Bonanza. Can still find parts for my plane and there is now an AC out there for classic aircraft where you can find an off the shelf part.
That is awesome. I do love the Bonanza and I would strongly consider one in the future. Such a great plane
So are you not insuring this airplane, not maintaining it or not flying it? I spend more than 2k on insurance, maintenance and fuel separately.
If all you want to do is fly for fun, an ultralight is hard to beat. Cheap and easy to maintain, some can be folded and stored in a garage.
There are plenty downsides as well. Most are very slow and have short ranges. Most have open cockpit designs, so obviously aren’t heated or cooled. Most are not designed to fly in anything more than mild weather/ wind.
The trade off for all the negatives is probably the purest seat of the pants flying available. And you can still afford a house to live in.
Thanks for this video man! In the market for a plane and you've definitely shifted my thinking. Cheers.
I'm not looking to become a pilot.... lol, well not like you but perhaps a Part 103 type pilot? That said, you have touched on a lot
of important information here. Certified Parts is one that touched everyone right up to the Presidential Jet. Not too many years
ago there was a commercial jet crash that was found to have "Bad" parts.... they were certified but not up to specs & the look in
to that caused the Presidential Jet to get rid of parts they sourced from bad part suppliers. SO, even in a Pt103 aircraft we'd be
needing nuts/bolts that were of a grade that would cost more than the stuff at Home Depot/Lowe's. And I'd be looking for the
least expensive so I hope/pray that if you read this that everyone would look to make sure they had parts that were right for
the plane you're in. Lots of rip-offs in the parts industry. You need the "grade" to be correct & true. peace
3 - 4 years ago there was a gazillion listings in Controller for Piper Cherokees. Now there are very few and the asking prices for the few that are available are nuts.
I bought an amateur built aircraft. I work on it myself, and get an AME to go over it. Uncertified parts are also significantly cheaper.
Still expensive as heck.