It is good that you report from the maintenance hangar and show the time that it takes to accomplish the maintenance tasks, There is a large section of the GA community that is convinced that having a maintenance engines license is an easy way to make a living.
Yeah, when you think about the fact that all the upward force is transferred to the fuselage through that tiny bracket that doesn't go that far in. I wonder if it was larger/longer that is actually more detrimental giving more surface area for flexing of the bracket?
"The wings haven't fallen off yet" sent shivers down my spine thinking about the PA28 spar failure accidents :( If you get the chance you should see a modern glider spar. We rig and derig them much more frequently and it's educational to get a good look inside your aircraft, as you're doing here :)
After personally taking an Arrow apart, I will never fly one again. They are built to an absolute minimum spec with zero margin for error. With age, they are just getting worse and worse.
Great video. Aero Anglia maintain our PA-28 as well (just out of its annual). Being a bit of a geek, it's really interesting to see what's involved and how much of the aircraft is exposed. No wonder it takes a few weeks to get an annual done!
Leak down test is the compressed air. They time how long the cylinder holds above a set psi. Compression test is the manual rotation of the prop to read the peak psi reading. Two similar tests measuring different aspects of cylinder health. As an owner of a PA-28 I found the video interesting and can empathize with the pain in your pocket book.
Here in Canada AD compliance is the owners responsibility and has nothing to do with signing off an annual. I did the research for my aircraft when I purchased it a few years ago and found several ADs that hadn’t been complied with. Luckily nothing too expensive.
It's quite common I think for these things to be missed. A good maintenance organisation will be very thorough to check compliance. After-all, they're audited regularly to ensure these jobs are done.
AME here. Before I do any annual inspections I start with a through AWD review. I've found some AWD signed off and after checking I found that they were never done. You have to be careful. It's the owner/operators responsibility. There just way to much "pencil whipping" going on.
I always thought that all wing spars ran through the fuselage (rear seat area), wing-to-wing. Thus the reason for the cramped leg room in the rear seat. The U.S.Navy had a land-based twin engine patrol plane called the P2V Neptune. The wing-to-wing spar was so massive, one had to crawl over it from the cockpit to the spacious rear area where the anti-submarine warfare electronic equipment was located. I'm a former PA-28 180 owner (before the AD).
Hi Jon, as an ex GA engineer it’s worth pointing out that your paperwork AD/SB/lifed item checks should be current hours plus 50, thus picking up any items that will fall due before the next check. I presume their software does this automatically.
That was a really nice video. really interesting footage. I am not going to lie though. Those tiny stubs that keep the wings on, that was a poper surprise indeed. I mean ofc it is safe but that image really almost scared me.
Fascinating stuff. Thank you to one and all for your time and efforts in sharing, filming etc. Long time since I've seen this sort of thing, I wasn't as interested back then either😳🙄😄😄 I am now😊👍 May I be indelicate and ask how much such work normally costs (without the wings coming off)? I was pondering the value for money aspect of Eg Light Sport/Microlight categories (perhaps more expensive to buy, but more modern aircraft that are cheaper to maintain and operate) vs GA metal aircraft, such as; C152's, Piper Cherokees, Tomahawks et al (perhaps cheaper to buy, but more expensive to run and to train on/for a licence etc?). These sort of questions will no doubt come to the fore, especially now, re; stagflation, recession, fuel and labour costs, relative to a hobby pilot's, wants, needs and 'mission profile', safety and budget etc.
Enjoyed your video greatly. I have nearly identical aircraft. My wing spars were checked and passed last year - only a normal annual this year - I hope.
Nothing more painful than getting those wing bolts back On and that little plate that sits in the top part of the spar channel that you have to get on first. Enjoy that. Can’t tell you how many of these I’ve done. The pain still there hehehe
The cracks are in the walkway doubler and due to people getting in and or the aircraft, I would guess by now the only PA28’s that don’t have cracks in this area are the aircraft that have had these skins replaced in the last five years or so.
I realise my Rotax is not certified but I’m gobsmacked seeing spark plugs being wire brushed. I just change mine every 100 hours. Also I had an inspector who used to test the compressions, he used a standard tester like used on a car, for each cylinder he attached the gauge and turned over on starter. Checked to make sure all cylinders the same. Around 200 psi I seem to remember.
Rotax spark plugs are standard motorcycle spark plugs and cost a few $ each for new ones. New Champion spark plugs for a conti 360 will be about £150 _each_.
I find it terribly disturbing that someone buys an airplane and then discovers how expensive it is with all the many costs involved. So they then decide to start a YT channel and beg for Patreons and seek donations to allow them to continue their hobby, but paid by others. I find that very offensive. However it’s these people that donate that are the real fools. I have found that the most interesting channels are made by those that are keen to share their passion and don’t beg for others to support them.
So sorry you were disturbed by this. If you take the time to know me, you'd realise that the judgement you have come to is not accurate. I have published more than 300 videos to my public, free to watch channel, which all do as you desire - I share my passion for aviation, and inspire people to get into general aviation. I would urge you, if you can face it, to watch some of my other content, before coming to a snap judgement about me and my motives. Here's are a couple of my videos that really are typical of what I do. ruclips.net/video/NIRgcCB7V9o/видео.html ruclips.net/video/2Ny9oQCSz4s/видео.html ruclips.net/video/l3uhSrWquxY/видео.html ruclips.net/video/DsPlVI5ElWQ/видео.html ruclips.net/video/bwG3Wk6SxDU/видео.html This inspiring and educational content takes a lot of time to produce, and is very expensive. I'm most grateful to my Supporters' Club members who help me make this possible. Unfortunately, a small UK based GA RUclips channel, does not make very much money at all from advertising alone. I know it's hard to change someone's first impression, but if you can face it, and have an open mind, do check out some of this other content and then give me the courtesy of coming back and sharing your informed opinion.
They don't call them Paper Pipers for Nothing. The Arrow is easily my least favorite airplane. They glide like a brick, and are not overbuilt by any stretch. Not to mention the Wing Spar issues.
My friend just passed away after the PA28 warrior he was flying broke mid flight ( the right wing broke) on an emergency descend maneuver. If there are any experienced mechanics who could shed some light into how probable is that to happen on a maneuver specially when you are exerting G's on Va, or what to look for on the wing on the pre flight inspection, it would help me ease into training specially now that I'm am training for my CPL and have to do the same maneuvers but on an Archer and always have that incident in the back of my head, thank you.
On your pre-buy inspection did upcoming wing off inspection, enter purchase price discussions ? We would all be interested to know the full price of that Annual inspection ? Certainly owning an LAA aircraft, where you can do you own maintenance to a certain extent makes it far cheaper to run, although admittedly most LAA aircraft are not as complicated as a Turbo Arrow. Your engineer is right, don’t always baby the engine, get it up to altitude and fly at 75%. After all that is why you have the turbo version, not the normally aspirated Arrow 3.
In fact if you read the original flight test on the Arrow Turbo by Alan Bramson in 1977 or 78, he points out that the only reason for buying the Turbo version was to fly high. At lower levels the ordinary Arrow 3 performs just as well, without the complication and higher maintenance of the Turbo. Also in the Arrow 3 you have the very reliable Lycoming IO360 200 Bhp 4 cylinder, which I believe is more reliable and stronger than the Continental IO 360 6 cylinder which has a shorter TBO, but being a 6 cylinder it is smoother. Not that I fly an Archer 180bhp, but those that do will tell you that the performance is not far short of the Arrow, but with less complication and maintenance as fixed prop and fixed undercarriage. That is why it is almost impossible to find one for sale at a sensible price as they are so much in demand, also more capable than a Warrior 160.
@@johnball4826 yeah, normally aspirated peak at about 6,000’ MSL above which the turbo starts to shine. My TAS continues increasing the higher I fly (to a point) and with our flying club Saratoga turbo I get 175 kts TAS at 9,000’. Alas, in the 🇬🇧, airspace restrictions (eg airways which are Class A and at altitudes
@@TheFlyingReporter I know - the point I was making is that I get anxious enough with my £300 quid (usually, hopefully) annual bill on my classic sports car so this must be a different league for you!
My experience was that an annual inspection would cost a minium of £2000. Luckily I was a member of a group and there were four of us sharing the cost.
Interesting. I’m a car person, but I’m intrigued by the spark plug testing. Each of my three cars, even the V8, can have all of its plugs replaced for under £15. I’m assuming it’s far more than this for the plane’s engine. Is that right?
Nice to see India Victor getting the TLC she needs, though I did a double-take seeing a six cylinder Continental engine under the cowl. Had to look that up. Nice! My Musketeer has an AD for reinforcement brackets on the spar (73-20-07R2), visually inspect every annual, dye -penetrant every 500 hours, plus a Service Instruction for spar corrosion inspections. This year's annual was clean, a far cry from last year's Annual From Hell. The only challenge was lining up a new shop to do the work since the shop I had been working with have since gone out of business. Nothing to do with me and my plane. I hope... 😀
I suspect you kept them in business for that year - shame they went out of business afterwards. Gosh, that's quite a drag, with the checks on the. spar. But, these machines are getting old. I doubt they ever believed they'd still be flying 50-60+ years on.
Depends so much on type, year, quality of the maintenance organisation and how well the aeroplane has been looked after in the past, but I guess £3500-£5000 would probably be a reasonable bracket to budget for on average.
This is WRONG. A compression test is NOT a reliable way of assessing engine health. Just try getting a so called fail , flying the aircraft half an hour and rechecking. A reliable way of checking engine health in 2022 is with a borescope The compression test was recommended when such technology didn't exist
It is good that you report from the maintenance hangar and show the time that it takes to accomplish the maintenance tasks, There is a large section of the GA community that is convinced that having a maintenance engines license is an easy way to make a living.
Wow! Wasn't expecting the metal spar to look that short! I'll try to keep that image out of my mind the next time i'm up in a PA28...!
PA28 spare aren't the biggest, hence the ADs. Have been a few in flight breakups
Yeah, when you think about the fact that all the upward force is transferred to the fuselage through that tiny bracket that doesn't go that far in. I wonder if it was larger/longer that is actually more detrimental giving more surface area for flexing of the bracket?
"The wings haven't fallen off yet" sent shivers down my spine thinking about the PA28 spar failure accidents :( If you get the chance you should see a modern glider spar. We rig and derig them much more frequently and it's educational to get a good look inside your aircraft, as you're doing here :)
After personally taking an Arrow apart, I will never fly one again. They are built to an absolute minimum spec with zero margin for error. With age, they are just getting worse and worse.
Hi. I am looking for a used aileron right side for my Piper Pa 28 140 . Or where to find skinmanufacture ?
I love the calm pace of this video.
I like it too!
Until the bit where he is handed the bill....they had to edit that scene out as it was far too distressing!
Great video. Aero Anglia maintain our PA-28 as well (just out of its annual). Being a bit of a geek, it's really interesting to see what's involved and how much of the aircraft is exposed. No wonder it takes a few weeks to get an annual done!
Thanks for the video Jon. Really like these behind the scenes engineering/maintenance type vids. Hope to see more.
I agree..it’s fascinating isn’t it. Will endeavour to bring further engineering updates.
Lovely episode, and good to see the old girl pass with flying colours. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks!
Thank you Ben. Much appreciated.
That plane must cost more than the NHS to run. You should get a Permit aircraft.
Leak down test is the compressed air. They time how long the cylinder holds above a set psi. Compression test is the manual rotation of the prop to read the peak psi reading. Two similar tests measuring different aspects of cylinder health. As an owner of a PA-28 I found the video interesting and can empathize with the pain in your pocket book.
Glad you enjoyed the video. If you fly to save money, you won't get very far!
Here in Canada AD compliance is the owners responsibility and has nothing to do with signing off an annual. I did the research for my aircraft when I purchased it a few years ago and found several ADs that hadn’t been complied with. Luckily nothing too expensive.
It's quite common I think for these things to be missed. A good maintenance organisation will be very thorough to check compliance. After-all, they're audited regularly to ensure these jobs are done.
AME here. Before I do any annual inspections I start with a through AWD review. I've found some AWD signed off and after checking I found that they were never done. You have to be careful. It's the owner/operators responsibility. There just way to much "pencil whipping" going on.
Hi John Paul from Orpington great video they do a brilliant job aero anglia keep up the great work
Thanks Paul. Aero anglia is the best!
Great video, Jon, full of interesting footage you wouldn’t normally see 👌👏👏👏
excellent video. my PA28 is still in its annual and now I know whats happening!
It's a thorough check!
I always thought that all wing spars ran through the fuselage (rear seat area), wing-to-wing. Thus the reason for the cramped leg room in the rear seat. The U.S.Navy had a land-based twin engine patrol plane called the P2V Neptune. The wing-to-wing spar was so massive, one had to crawl over it from the cockpit to the spacious rear area where the anti-submarine warfare electronic equipment was located. I'm a former PA-28 180 owner (before the AD).
Hi Jon, as an ex GA engineer it’s worth pointing out that your paperwork AD/SB/lifed item checks should be current hours plus 50, thus picking up any items that will fall due before the next check. I presume their software does this automatically.
I’m certain they will be all over that.
That was a really nice video. really interesting footage. I am not going to lie though. Those tiny stubs that keep the wings on, that was a poper surprise indeed. I mean ofc it is safe but that image really almost scared me.
Nice great video, very interesting. thank you
Thanks
Thank you so much Harry.
Very informative thanks. Regarding the wing attachments. Sometimes the more you know about aviation the less you want to know 🤣
Crazy when you see what's holding something together
I know, right!
Fascinating stuff. Thank you to one and all for your time and efforts in sharing, filming etc. Long time since I've seen this sort of thing, I wasn't as interested back then either😳🙄😄😄 I am now😊👍
May I be indelicate and ask how much such work normally costs (without the wings coming off)? I was pondering the value for money aspect of Eg Light Sport/Microlight categories (perhaps more expensive to buy, but more modern aircraft that are cheaper to maintain and operate) vs GA metal aircraft, such as; C152's, Piper Cherokees, Tomahawks et al (perhaps cheaper to buy, but more expensive to run and to train on/for a licence etc?).
These sort of questions will no doubt come to the fore, especially now, re; stagflation, recession, fuel and labour costs, relative to a hobby pilot's, wants, needs and 'mission profile', safety and budget etc.
Enjoyed your video greatly. I have nearly identical aircraft. My wing spars were checked and passed last year - only a normal annual this year - I hope.
My dream is to fly a PA 28 piper Cherokee 👍🏿🥳😎
thanks for a great vid with lots of interesting info, cheers PPL NZ
Just found this channel. Love it. I have the T-tail turbo version so this is so helpful to see.
Welcome aboard.
How he is making this so interesting to watch, is a work of art:)
Thank you Asmund.
Great video Jon. Hear of these checks but never seen them in person
It's worth spending time watch your mechanic - gives you a whole new perspective.
I cant fathom that spar holds that wing on, engineering is so great.
Now we know what VNE is for!
Nothing more painful than getting those wing bolts back On and that little plate that sits in the top part of the spar channel that you have to get on first. Enjoy that. Can’t tell you how many of these I’ve done. The pain still there hehehe
Bedankt
Thank you so much Marcel for the tip.
"Buying an airplane is cheap, properly maintaining it is expensive."
The cracks in the wing skins could be an indication of a bigger problem.
The cracks are in the walkway doubler and due to people getting in and or the aircraft, I would guess by now the only PA28’s that don’t have cracks in this area are the aircraft that have had these skins replaced in the last five years or so.
Good video .
Thanks David.
I realise my Rotax is not certified but I’m gobsmacked seeing spark plugs being wire brushed. I just change mine every 100 hours. Also I had an inspector who used to test the compressions, he used a standard tester like used on a car, for each cylinder he attached the gauge and turned over on starter. Checked to make sure all cylinders the same. Around 200 psi I seem to remember.
Rotax spark plugs are standard motorcycle spark plugs and cost a few $ each for new ones. New Champion spark plugs for a conti 360 will be about £150 _each_.
Also a compression test like you describe is pointless, a leakdown test is quite different
I find it terribly disturbing that someone buys an airplane and then discovers how expensive it is with all the many costs involved. So they then decide to start a YT channel and beg for Patreons and seek donations to allow them to continue their hobby, but paid by others. I find that very offensive. However it’s these people that donate that are the real fools. I have found that the most interesting channels are made by those that are keen to share their passion and don’t beg for others to support them.
So sorry you were disturbed by this. If you take the time to know me, you'd realise that the judgement you have come to is not accurate. I have published more than 300 videos to my public, free to watch channel, which all do as you desire - I share my passion for aviation, and inspire people to get into general aviation. I would urge you, if you can face it, to watch some of my other content, before coming to a snap judgement about me and my motives. Here's are a couple of my videos that really are typical of what I do. ruclips.net/video/NIRgcCB7V9o/видео.html ruclips.net/video/2Ny9oQCSz4s/видео.html ruclips.net/video/l3uhSrWquxY/видео.html ruclips.net/video/DsPlVI5ElWQ/видео.html ruclips.net/video/bwG3Wk6SxDU/видео.html This inspiring and educational content takes a lot of time to produce, and is very expensive. I'm most grateful to my Supporters' Club members who help me make this possible. Unfortunately, a small UK based GA RUclips channel, does not make very much money at all from advertising alone. I know it's hard to change someone's first impression, but if you can face it, and have an open mind, do check out some of this other content and then give me the courtesy of coming back and sharing your informed opinion.
They don't call them Paper Pipers for Nothing. The Arrow is easily my least favorite airplane. They glide like a brick, and are not overbuilt by any stretch. Not to mention the Wing Spar issues.
1:48 I need this in my kitchen.
My friend just passed away after the PA28 warrior he was flying broke mid flight ( the right wing broke) on an emergency descend maneuver. If there are any experienced mechanics who could shed some light into how probable is that to happen on a maneuver specially when you are exerting G's on Va, or what to look for on the wing on the pre flight inspection, it would help me ease into training specially now that I'm am training for my CPL and have to do the same maneuvers but on an Archer and always have that incident in the back of my head, thank you.
On your pre-buy inspection did upcoming wing off inspection, enter purchase price discussions ? We would all be interested to know the full price of that Annual inspection ? Certainly owning an LAA aircraft, where you can do you own maintenance to a certain extent makes it far cheaper to run, although admittedly most LAA aircraft are not as complicated as a Turbo Arrow. Your engineer is right, don’t always baby the engine, get it up to altitude and fly at 75%. After all that is why you have the turbo version, not the normally aspirated Arrow 3.
Concur. I fly a turbo Saratoga and routinely fly at 75% at 8-10,000”
Yes, the pre-buy spotted the cracked wing walk and was part of negotiations.
In fact if you read the original flight test on the Arrow Turbo by Alan Bramson in 1977 or 78, he points out that the only reason for buying the Turbo version was to fly high. At lower levels the ordinary Arrow 3 performs just as well, without the complication and higher maintenance of the Turbo. Also in the Arrow 3 you have the very reliable Lycoming IO360 200 Bhp 4 cylinder, which I believe is more reliable and stronger than the Continental IO 360 6 cylinder which has a shorter TBO, but being a 6 cylinder it is smoother. Not that I fly an Archer 180bhp, but those that do will tell you that the performance is not far short of the Arrow, but with less complication and maintenance as fixed prop and fixed undercarriage. That is why it is almost impossible to find one for sale at a sensible price as they are so much in demand, also more capable than a Warrior 160.
@@johnball4826 yeah, normally aspirated peak at about 6,000’ MSL above which the turbo starts to shine. My TAS continues increasing the higher I fly (to a point) and with our flying club Saratoga turbo I get 175 kts TAS at 9,000’. Alas, in the 🇬🇧, airspace restrictions (eg airways which are Class A and at altitudes
Well that was fascinating. Thanks so much for filming this: every owner is curious to see exactly what happens during maintenance!
Pleasure.
My goodness - and I get nervous when my car is in for an MOT and needs an oil & filter change - and the bill after a couple of hours labour!
You don't run an aeroplane to save money - same with a classic car really.
@@TheFlyingReporter I know - the point I was making is that I get anxious enough with my £300 quid (usually, hopefully) annual bill on my classic sports car so this must be a different league for you!
My experience was that an annual inspection would cost a minium of £2000. Luckily I was a member of a group and there were four of us sharing the cost.
Looks like Dave came out of retirement to give a hand getting the wing off
He's often around to lend a hand.
Having had a lesson in a PA28 recently where my instructor did a rather steep turn, I'll try to keep how short the wing spar is out of my mind 😬
They've been flying without much incident for 60 odd years...
@@TheFlyingReporter this is very true and they are still very safe aircraft 🙂
Interesting. I’m a car person, but I’m intrigued by the spark plug testing. Each of my three cars, even the V8, can have all of its plugs replaced for under £15. I’m assuming it’s far more than this for the plane’s engine. Is that right?
Interesting video, Jon. I suspect you had a big bill afterwards 🙄
Thanks Andy. We're not in aviation to save money. These machines need care and attention.
Nice to see India Victor getting the TLC she needs, though I did a double-take seeing a six cylinder Continental engine under the cowl. Had to look that up. Nice!
My Musketeer has an AD for reinforcement brackets on the spar (73-20-07R2), visually inspect every annual, dye -penetrant every 500 hours, plus a Service Instruction for spar corrosion inspections. This year's annual was clean, a far cry from last year's Annual From Hell. The only challenge was lining up a new shop to do the work since the shop I had been working with have since gone out of business. Nothing to do with me and my plane. I hope... 😀
I suspect you kept them in business for that year - shame they went out of business afterwards. Gosh, that's quite a drag, with the checks on the. spar. But, these machines are getting old. I doubt they ever believed they'd still be flying 50-60+ years on.
What did this annual inspection cost?
SB 886
Great video! Just curious of the total time on this airframe?
Just over 3000 hours.
how much does something like this cost ?
What’s the average cost of annuals?
Depends so much on type, year, quality of the maintenance organisation and how well the aeroplane has been looked after in the past, but I guess £3500-£5000 would probably be a reasonable bracket to budget for on average.
Paid how much?
This is WRONG. A compression test is NOT a reliable way of assessing engine health. Just try getting a so called fail , flying the aircraft half an hour and rechecking. A reliable way of checking engine health in 2022 is with a borescope The compression test was recommended when such technology didn't exist
Thanks!
Thank you so much Chuck.
Thanks
Thank you so much Matthew.
Thanks!
Thank you so much Dale - you're very kind.
Thanks!
Thank you so much John - most helpful.
Thanks!
Marc-Andre - you're a star, thank you.
Thanks
Thank you so much.