PPR is quite common for small airfields in Germany, too. And traffic services using group squawk codes is also totally normal. The reason, at least in Germany, is that there are a lot of small planes and they are not obliged to contact FIS (which is a traffic service for information, no air traffic control). So in order to signal that you are on the frequency of a traffic service, you get the corresponding squawk assigned. You fly VFR, i.e., as you explained, you are responsible. On a nice day near the islands in the north sea, there might be dozens of planes in the sector which makes it impossible for FIS to ensure traffic information. So they as well might inform you, that traffic information is limited or even not available. And even if it is… it is just a help. When entering a new FIS sector, we also get a new squawk; however, we directly switch to that squawk without changing to 7000 first. Some CTR also assign VFR group squawks to every plane, Hamburg, I think, does it. Smaller Airports just let you stay on 7000. For an air traffic controller, the squawk codes help: Let’s say you are close to their airspace and they need to contact you for whatever reason? Seeing your FIS group code lets them know that you are on FIS frequency and that they can contact you via their collegues. That is by the way the reason for transponder mandatory zones (TMZ), where you also have to squawk a published group code to signal that you monitor a particular frequency. So… taking off with 7000, contacting FIS and getting a 70xx squawk, announcing that you are about to enter a TMZ and will be back, then switching frequency and squawking the TMZ code, contacting FIS again after passing the TMZ and getting the 70xx code assigned again, leaving the sector, beimg asked to contact the next sector by your current FIS operator (they hand you over with all your data) and getting the new 70yy-code… quite normal. Your squawk always indicates your frequency, and 7000 leaves everybody wondering if and where you are listening. I am, however, surprised that you do not fly on the left side!
The main reason for PPR is noise-management, especially at airfields where there's some stress with locals concerning noise. Limits on movements may have been agreed, so they may need to manage the number of visiting aircraft to remain within the agreed cap on movements.
@@keyboard5494 Ok, that might be the case. However, for this purpose, I have a checklist that also includes this check right before starting the engine (and also look sideways-back as far as you can to see if someone is next to your plane).
A few decades ago I had my private licence in Australia and while travelling around Britain arranged a few flights from Elmdon Airport Birmingham to get my required hours in. I took up a little Piper Cub and flew mainly South West from Elmdon. The notable difference I found from the air was just how close towns and villages are in England compared to Oz. Not being a native I found it harder to navigate as one township often blended into another making them difficult to identify. I appreciated once I got home just how easy I had it identifying well spaced checkpoints. England sure is beautiful from the air though and I'm so glad I experienced it.
@johnphelps I did 95% of my flying several decades ago in South Africa, Rhodesia ( as it was then ), Botswana, and Swaziland up to and including commercial pilot with all the ratings. I renewed my licence in the UK in the early 90's from Biggin Hill. Even then flying in the UK was a nightmare VFR, constantly talking to someone, resetting frequencies, traffic lookout, took all the fun out of flying- I gave up- and don't even talk about the cost of it. You ( not you personally ) can keep it!
Here in Canada you squawk 1200 unless you are told otherwise. Since my home airport is controlled I always have a squawk code, even for local flights. You keep the squawk for the duration of your flight, no "frequency change approved, squawk VFR " in Canada. VFR flight following isn't a thing due to spotty radar coverage outside of areas like southern Ontario. PPR airports exist, but only if they're privately owned. Local examples include Mabel Lake CBF9 (part of a golf course) and Fort Langley CBQ2 (a private business). RCAF bases are PPR as well. Unless you have bona fide business on the base the answer will be NO. Our preferred way to join the circuit at uncontrolled airports is to cross mid field then join downwind. At controlled airports you can join just about anywhere.
As a controller, having dedicated banks of SSR codes assigned to individual units is *hugely* helpful. If you're flying under or around my airspace, you could conceivably be in receipt of a service from London Information, Luton, Southend, Norwich, Farnborough, Cambridge or nobody at all, and wearing a squawk to reflect that makes life much, much easier when it comes to coordination and, ultimately, keeping you and others safe.
I immediately realised the benefits of having this mechanism during my flight training many years ago. I think it is incredibly smart. This is actually what should be adopted in the rest of the world ---- just one little task for the crew, but improves safety hugely.
@@david1731048 OK, maybe a dumb question then . . . would the IFR without an ORCAM squawk typically be a local IFR? Maybe e.g. training? I don't fly in Europe much and have to say, my experience has been different than what's depicted in the video.
@@aafjeyakubu5124 Yes, an IFR flight without an ORCAM squawk could be a training flight, or a repositioning flight between airfields that are close to each other. Other cases are IFR helicopters (such as Helimed/Rescue) that usually fly VFR, but due weather have to go IFR, so they would be given a local IFR squawk.
Flight plans, or a lack of them, is another weird thing I noted when I last flew in the UK. On my way up from Switzerland I filled flight plans all the way to my destination. Not a problem closing and opening the plans at my arrival airport but at my destination they didn’t seem to know what a flight plan was and didn’t know how to close it. After explaining what it was I was told that UK pilots didn’t use flight plans. We also had PPR for small airports in Switzerland but you were expected to call them on the phone rather than e-mail them and it was an opportunity for them to tell you about any issues related to the airport which might affect your flight. I thought it was a good idea from that perspective. Frequently you would call up and if there were no issues you would just get a recorded message giving anyone who called permission to land.
Yep. Pre-filed FPLs are not routinely used for VFR flight in the UK. Means we have to constantly pass our message and submit FPLs over the RT for different parts of our flight.
Filing a FPL, and passing your message, are mutually exclusive in the U.K. Until we get joined up ATC that will always be the case for flights conducted outside the ATC Route structure (Airways) whether VFR or IFR.
In the UK PPR can either be a phone call, email or online form. Sometimes airfields have more than one method but get huffy when you use the one that isn't their preferred option. It's maddening!
One thing that seems to be misunderstood sometimes is that VFR or IFR in UK Class G is (to a controller) less relevant. No separation is provided in Class G between any type of flight. Just traffic information under TS or deconfliction ADVICE under DS (which has similar dimensions to separation criteria in CAS) dependant on what type of service you are receiving. E.g. flying IFR on a Traffic service gives you no priority over an aircraft flying VFR on a BS or TS. Or flying IFR under a DS gives you no priority of anybody else in Class G. In fact, the definition of DS requires the controller to keep you (DS aircraft) away from other aircraft by giving you vectors or level allocations, (which are advisory), not the other way around. Pilots requesting a DS should be prepared to be routed around other traffic and not expect the other aircraft to be moved out of your way.(unless coordination is agreed)
I have done most of my flying in the U.K. but am now based in the U.S 1. No PPR in US mainly because they have a lot of uncontrolled federally or state funded airports which means that landing fees are all free! 2. Squawks. Conspicuity is 1200 vs 7000. They say squawk VFR in the US. When you get Flight following (leads in to the next point) you typically get one squawk for the whole duration of your flight. 3 in Class G mainly out west in the US up to 14,500’ you can do IFR without a clearance. Most class G on the east is only up to 1200’ AGL. 4. Basic and Traffic I miss a lot. Flight following is good but not always available based on ATC workload. 5. Overhead joins I think are great and I wish they were the preferred method. You can do it in the US more of a teardrop. But they prefer going at 45 degrees on the downwind at traffic pattern altitude, which I think makes it tricky to space yourself in with other traffic.
Some medium sized GA airfields (such as Redhill, Shoreham) have their own custom squawk to tell other radar operators who the aircraft is getting an ATC service from, seems like quite a good system. PPR is a useful opportunity to find out about closed taxiways (or worse, cafe), runway and circuit direction, fuel availability, curfew etc at the destination. Regardless of the need for PPR, setting off without a quick call to the destination seems reckless. And the standard overhead join is a good way of safely joining - circling overhead is a chance to observe the windsock and traffic, and positions the aircraft to join mid downwind with plenty of time to look and listen for other aircraft. I like the channel (especially since you don’t say “papa alpha 28” any more) and there’s plenty of weird stuff in the UK. But to me this video mostly highlights what we’re getting right
The last report on the UK airspace said it was completely mismanaged and that airspace at airports needs to be confined like the rest of the world. Sadly nothing has been done and airspace in the UK continues to have swathes of areas unflyable due to mismanagement.
The air traffic system in the UK must be managed by the same bunch of morons as the railway. In the US, I get in my aircraft and if at a controlled airfield, I tell ATC who I am, where I am, and what I am GOING to do. ATC approves or disapproves. The rest is up to me .
Agreed. CAA Safety Sense leaflet 6 shows an overhead join with a semi circle from downwind end of the runway to upwind end of the runway, descending overhead. Sporty, needs 1500+ fpm descent. However another CAA publication, CAP1535P in the airfield joining procedures (p103) shows an aircraft arriving overhead the downwind end of the runway, trundling well to the dead side, descending there and returning on crosswind. No problem, each to is own? Well say you're arriving shortly and the guy ahead says overhead join. 3 minutes later you assume he's well clear of the overhead and already downwind turning base and so begin your own sporty version of the join. Your engine blocks your view of the guy now on his crosswind join all the way round. Loud complaints over the radio as you descend on top of him. Flying reporter says in the video it needs to be done right ... and don't laugh ... but his Sky Demon track was somewhere between the two CAA suggestions ...
@@neilthomason8206 and that's before we take into account the byzanthine and myriad non-standard circuit patterns in use at seemingly most UK GA fields... do you come out of that descending turn at the end of the runway and fly a sort of shortcut early crosswind, or do you extend out and effectively fly the entire non-standard pattern. Have seen (and done tbh) both, but no clear way to know which the a/c ahead of you has elected for unless their RT is decent and they anticipate others might want to know more than just 'overhead', or you have them on mk 1 eyeball.
When I first started flying here in OZ, the SOJ was routine, descend on the dead side and join crosswind. Now it's pattern height and join downwind on the 45 per the 'mericans. I find this less safe. You are at pattern height trying to find aircraft at, well, pattern height. Much easier on the dead side taking your time working out what's in the pattern. YMMV of course
Interesting info! Here in Finland we have some PPR fields, mostly private ones. And the squak code stays the same throughout the flight. We need to file a flightplan if any part of our flight goes into controlled airspace. And the whole "dead side" thing is completely alien. You can join left or right traffic circuit, unless there is a noise abatement area on one side. On controlled airports the ATC will tell you how to join, on class G airfields the standard practice is to fly around the field once and then join (left or right) downwind. If there is other traffic on the uncontrolled field, you can join where you fit without disrupting the traffic already in the circuit. My home airport is sometimes controlled and sometimes not.
Watching the video, one of the top 5 oddities would seem to be the pilot telling the controller on initial call what QNH (altimeter setting) he / she has dialed in and then the controller confirming if it is correct. Why not just the controller reading the correct QNH and the pilot setting it and reading back (the U.S. convention)?
If the pilot happens to already have the right QNH, then same amount of time. But if not, it takes an extra reply: controller corrects QNH and then pilot reads back the right one (I presume).
If you're flying out of a busier airport with ATIS, your initial RT call is to tell ATC that you've listened to it and which version it was, so you (should!) fully understand the prevailing aerodrome conditions before calling them for a start, and you're confirming the QNH setting according to the version of information. It's a short bit of RT from the pilot "Tower, AIRCRAFT TYPE AND REG, LOCATION, information x, QNH nnnn, request start", but conveys a lot to ATC about the readiness of the pilot, so I can see the benefit of standardising on that way around.
PPR is such a strange thing. Having worked in a small control tower for a number of years at what was at the time a busy aerodrome we never required PPR. It makes such a small difference - unless you really are very pushed for ground space to park arriving aircraft it is quite pointless!
Thanks for the nice video! It was fun to see you fly out of Redhill Aerodrome - I learned to fly there in 1989. It looks just the same! Lots of adventures flying to North Wales with mountain bikes. Also a few trips to France, Germany and the Channel Islands. I moved to California in 1994, so things have obviously changed over the years. But I remember the use of QNH & QFE (think “field elevation”) for the altimeter setting. Also, the existence of the “IMC rating”, which allows IMC flight in uncontrolled airspace, but not true IFR clearances. Really useful in the UK because of the mostly benign, but ever-changing weather. I also remember landing fees everywhere and pricey fuel. But I don’t remember having to change the squawk code all the time!
Here in New Zealand we are drilled in the standard overhead join also, but 1500 ft not 2000 agl…and it helps to have less traffic than UK! It’s actually a great way to have a good look at an airfield, like a stop and think…
Also you will find gliders climbing in those cumulus in class G, not talking to anyone and probably without a transponder (but almost certainly with FLARM)
Gliders climbing in cloud should call each other on 130.535 in the UK, but since this is not known to power pilots, it isn’t as useful as it could be, but i guess 98% of glider pilots stop at cloud base. In general, they are rarely, if ever, taking a service in VMC or IMC. One glider pilot estimated that by the time he changes frequency and talks to someone, he usually loses 400 feet. Flarm now almost universal, and there are quite a few with transponders and ADSB these days.
I am reminded of the Goon Show - from memory it goes a bit like this: tinkler tinkery clunk clunk ,bang bang Neddie Seagoon: there it is!, we have invented the Aeroplane! Door: knock, knock Neddie: yes, hello, who are you? Official: we are . . . The AIR MINISTRY! - ~ ~ Bump ! Bump ! Baddahmmm ! ~ ~ - Neddie: yes, and?! Official: Would you like to fly your newly invented device? Neddie: oh yes! Official: then just fill in this form so we can put the air in place above the street.
I don't like hearing and seeing "clear prop" and an immediate start. Defeats the object. Might have been an edit here but I see it frequently in the wild.
Showing us how it's done... 9:21 For a standard overhead join, says what he's going to do is _"then join the pattern crosswind."_ 10:53 Then goes nowhere near the crosswind leg and joins halfway down the down wind leg. I suppose you were technically flying crosswind, just nowhere near the location in the pattern that's known as crosswind. Don't people find that kind of terminology ambiguous/confusing?
In the UK the non Orcam squawks are assigned to different ATC units. It makes it very easy for other units to work out who is working the aircraft. In an ideal world everyone unit would be using the same electronic systems which would enable seamless handovers and the retention of a squawk. However the cost required to put this into service would be astronomical. I do agree overhead joins are a very old school join method. Now we have many airfields with ATIS's, full ATC, FISO and Air ground. There is no real need for overhead joins. Overhead joins were designed for the aircraft to fly overhead and look at the signal Square on the airfield to check the circuit pattern and runway use.
In Australia, PPR is very common for smaller airfields, which are owned mostly by private landholders or town councils. It's great to have a reason to ring up a farmer and chat about the recent weather and wildlife. Overhead join is standard because it's considered safer. What feels weird about Australia is that only the very busiest airports have a tower or local radio service.
We have a similar overhead, 500 ft above pattern alt, descend after enter at a 45 degree entry to downwind. I often use fly over the airport at pattern altitude from the opposite side perpendicular to the runway, checking for downwind traffic, and making a left turn to joint downwind (assuming left traffic). If it’s busy I enter from a 45 and avoid the pattern.
I consider PPR as polite plus it is useful, otherwise one time we would have turned up at a flooded airfield! As for squawking it has also been useful. Going between Luton and Stansted they alerted me when I was too close to them, days before GPS.
@@atco2 even in clouds? VMC into IMC is the deadliest sport of all, regardless the definition of the airspace. The benefits of flight following in The US combined with its efficiency from controller to controller are huge in my experience as a pilot and from talking to controllers (recently as Oshkosh), they have dozens of pilots a day who get into trouble, that they can immediately help…because they are on VFR following with a unique squark/tail reference, especially if a pop IFR is needed in a hurry while hand flying. I’d encourage you to objectively compare the 2, i have flown in both systems, one is a lot safer than the other.
Great video - I suspect a) many non-UK pilots are surprised when they fly into UK airspace by some of our strange ways; and b) vice-versa, UK pilots can easily be like a fish out of water in European, US, Australian or other airspace worldwide. There's also surprises for IFR pilots flying into our airspace - my good friend Matt Guthmiller did a good video on his perspective that way around some years ago as well..! Lastly, it'd be wrong to suggest that such oddities are unique to the UK: many other jurisdictions have (sometimes very!) non-standard approaches to joins, radar services, permissions required, reporting requirements etc etc. Best practice is to always read the ICAO Differences section of the AIP of the country you're flying into if not already familiar with their strange ways!
American pilot here that lived and flew in the UK in from 2007-2012. What I noticed was the really long, drawn out RT calls. Too much information. I always thought it could be simplified. I sure miss flying there.
@@KenFullman if you fly IFR yes. And no, that’s no trouble at all. I can change destination and route as I please while I’m in the air. I don’t need any prior permission to land anywhere. I can also pick up my IFR clearance in the air if weather allows for that and I want to do that. It’s just a lot more flexibility.
Basic Service actually sounds very useful. It's almost the kind of enroute dispatching and flight monitoring that airlines give their pilots - at least, in theory. The "Overhead Join" is also common in Canada (but at 500' above the circuit). This is very useful at airports where there is little information available regarding latest status, wind, runway condition, terrain situation and such. Thanks for this interesting topic. Much appreciated.
In practice basic service isn’t all that useful at all. ATC will only give you traffic info if they (a) see it and (b) they have capacity to pass the message on, The radio can be often filled with other pilots requesting and getting a basic service so there’s little opportunity to get any meaningful information from ATC
@@geoffreycoanAgreed. Some ATC units such as Farnborough Radar can become swamped (usually in better weather) and cannot offer anything useful. In fact, the radio can become so busy that it becomes a flight distraction. Sometimes the only useful way to operate is to listen out for the appropriate QNH then go on your way, keeping a very good lookout.
@@geoffreycoan(c) if there is a definite risk of collision
2 месяца назад
Thanks. Interesting. Certainly for a French pilot the level of service you get from ATC in the UK is something to get used to. Regarding standard join it is definately a great technique that we use in France for all non towered airfields. It is critical for safety (trafic and wind). You can find many accidents in the US because of lack of proper recongition before landing.
Living in in Southern Ontario Canada the only PPR we see are on private strips. I've landed at around 50 airports or strips within a 200 mile radius of my home airport with no need to call in advance. You can get flight following pretty much anywhere here, but I typically only get it to go through the Toronto area class Charlie (Our largest city). We also get the US ADSB feed for weather and some traffic alerts. All the red tape you have to go through is crazy! The only thing that comes close here is when we want to cross into the United States. Several procedures needed to avoid a radio call from an F16. The exception to that is if you have flight following they can route you through the US if your destination is back in Canada.
Yeah, the levels of ATC service are interesting - I flew to Old Sarum from Hilversum and though I was prepared for it, getting the question what service I wanted still got me thinking “WHAT do I want…”
That all sounds very familar to a Canadian pilot except the transponder code madness. We also have PPR although mostly reserved for small private aerodromes. Even the overhead join is very similar as is the use of the term circuit.
One thing that I didn't see mentioned - Having to call the tower, by telephone no less, before you can go to your plane and start preflight checks. Not sure how many UK aerodromes enforce this. In Europe we just go to the plane and turn the radios on and call the tower directly and give intentions, ask permission to start up, taxi etc.
I received my Private license at RAF Woodbridge in the late '70's. Fun flying. Had to know Queen's rules, FAA rules, and USAF rules. Aircraft had US registration. It was always fun to land at small airports, got some funny looks! Came back to the States and had to learn how to fly on the right side of the road again.
I wonder if the PPR requirement in the UK is because legally you must have the landowners permission to take-off or land there. If you haven't PPR'd, you therefore don't have the legal permission to land there except in an emergency. PPR otherwise makes total sense, for example to actually find out if the airfield is safe to use or even still exists. Many small grass strips can appear and disappear literally within days. For my own strip, if anyone wants to fly in I walk the field to check the rabbits haven't been digging which otherwise could spoil someone's day.
It's the 21st century. You should have an integrated ATC system, so that only 1 code is required per flight. Any controller can click on the aircraft label and see who has jurisdiction. Also, a somewhat ICAO compliant airspace and services would improve things considerably
Very similar to flying in Switzerland. PPR on most small airfields. Some require it a week in advance (and refouse it though), some are happy if you ask when you start the approach (very handy if you need a toilet stop). Traffic Service is common too, called FIS (flight information service), Overhead join is also common on most small airfields. If you grew up with it, thos are the most normal things ;-)
Ash, Turweston near Brackley in Northamptonshire. Despite living relatively close for 7 years I never found the time to take a look at the airfield, but I looked at loads of others in the region! Hinton on the Hedges is the other side of Brackley and famous for being the place where Nigel Farage was in a aircraft crash.
Hi Jon, I frankly don’t understand the way you did this standard overhead join … it looks at 10:55 as if you are joining the circuit(height) mid-downwind iso of beginning crosswind leg. And to get down it almost looks like a steep ‘spiral’ iso a straight line along upwind on the dead side. Thank you for clarifying.
If you have any kind of speed on, and a shortish runway, there isn't room for a straight line upwind on the dead side or you will be flying way too far upwind on some kind of bomber-command circuit. Keep it tight. An OHJ to a long runway can give you all the room you need to do a straight line upwind, but generally OHJs are prevalent at smaller uncontrolled airfields rather than big airports
My biggest frustration is the lack of arrival procedure flying. Almost always instead of flying the arrival in the flight plan we were manually vectored. Arrival procedures are designed to flow traffic efficiently, but instead manual vectors all over the place creating more work for EVERYBODY. It seems it's an ATC make-work decision to keep controllers employed.
It does seem odd to have to get PPR at an aerodrome that wants you to visit but I always call up beforehand, just to make sure that nothing has happened to prevent my arrival. On occasion I have been warned off for various reasons and I've gone somewhere else.
I am one of those pilots that struggles with the overhead join. I do need to practice it and would really love a detailed video on it. I've been flying now for quite a few years, but the aerodrome I trained at, and most that I generally visit, do not use overhead joins due to skydiving in the overhead.
Sorry if this is a rookie question, i have not flown since before covid so there may have been some changes , but flying IFR in G im assuming you still need to be IR rated and IFR equipt? as if i remember correctly VFR only (non ir /imc rated) must remain a minimum of 500ft from cloud / airspace ceiling
Didn’t notice any traffic on the GPS, do you have a requirement for ADS-B/similar over there? I don’t know anyone here in the US that isn’t using some form of traffic in except a few antique a/c without electric, and even some of them use battery powered ones.
It’s not yet mandated. We had a government funded scheme to discount electronic conspicuity devices which has led to a mix of systems that are not interoperable. I have a set up that broadcasts and receives ADSB. It’s likely adsb will be mandated here soon.
What conspicuity device do you use? 2,500ft is not a great gliding day for us but gliders can circle at cloudbase, so hopping in an out of cloud on a thermic day doesn't sound a great idea to me.
PilotAware is probably the best as it shows Flarm, Power-Flarm, ADS-B/Mode-S, other Pilotaware equipped aircraft plus other conspicuity systems fed from a network of ground-based Open Glider Network repeaters (OGN-R). Nothing else provides this cross-system capability. I use PilotAware for every flight and also run and maintain a ground-based OGN-R repeater station.
Funny enough, I am pretty sure that in the U.S. we can also freely enter clouds in Class G without being on an IFR flight plan / clearance. However, there are very very few places in the U.S. where Class G exists above 1200ft AGL.
Thanks for this interesting video 👍🏼. Btw, besides PPR there is also a PN (prior notice) which is equally helpful for incoming traffic management. To humbly ask for permission and being gracefully granted it, is overdoing it in my opinion. PPR is only reasonable on private airfields, not on public ones in my view. Kind regards, Patrick (Switzerland)
One thing I noticed when I began flying in the UK after getting my PPL in the US is "pass your message"! It's unique to the UK and has caught out fliers arriving from Europe and North America. Will this change under the ICAO rules?
PPR is required at a number of European airports. Flying VFR in German airspace is like flying IFR, with FIS providing a truly fabulous radar and deconfliction service, including at weekends.
VFR in Germany is certainly not anything close to flying IFR, but they do indeed offer a very decent and joined up FIS. Same for many other European mainland countries though.
Enjoy the video thank you and I know what you mean when it comes to a standard overhead joint nobody knows how to do them properly! What would be useful is to do a video on actually how much it cost to run your own aircraft!
Do you still need to be IFR rated to fly IFR without clearance (I can't even believe I'm typing that last bit in a sentence that doesn't include "... and the NTSB/ATSB will be investigating..." ). Quite some years ago, I remember an FAA report, where they found that the "average life expectancy" for a VFR-only pilot flying into IMC is around 97 seconds(!) until the inevitable graveyard spiral takes them into the ground. 😭
I used to live a few hundred yards from Redhil aerodrome. Very handy for local flights! Moist of these things you show pkus a few more made me quit doing my PPL I didnt see any point. I was married to an American and flying in the states is SO FREE the uk is so full of controlled airspace and MATZ that you have to 'thread a needle' between G air spaces and controlled. It all frankly 'put me off'. In the RAF I was flying helicopters at the end but wanted to convert to fixed wing - but thought NAH I dont think ill bother. In the states if you own a microlight you can just hop in and take off and AWAY! Great videos.
The only restriction to my local UK airfield is. Dont over fly the village which means it can be awkward if the wind is wrong. Not a problem for me PPL (H)
We need PPR at some Aerodromes/Airfields in Ireland …I may be wrong but requesting “PPR” may mean a ground based controller would need to be be present when you arrive or their may not be an “Automated Payment method for landing fees/Parking etc…. As for Overhead Join ..I much rather approach Weston Airport Dublin with this method as I’m a student pilot and there are other flying schools at Weston Dublin…so on any given weekend the circuit will be very busy so you may need to Orbit on the over head at 1500ft before you decent to circuit height to avoid conflict
That clearance is issued when you are flying an ILS but starting the approach from above the platform altitude. ie you are vectored to an ILS at 3000 which has a platform of 2500. If you are cleared for an ILS then you are cleared to descend to the platform altitude which the controller may not want for a variety of reasons.
@kickedinthecalfbyacow7549 sorry, I haven't explained myself properly. You are cleared to descend on the glideslope, after intercepting the localiser. The 2500 platform and 3000 clearance isn't the best example, but they may want you on the glide from 3000 and 10nm or 4000 and 10nm as there could be traffic or airspace underneath that conflicts. They may not want you descending at your own discretion/rate to the platform altitude and then the glide. It is odd but often used
Could be an airspace restriction, where descending to the platform altitude immediately would take you outside of controlled airspace, or traffic - e.g. at Heathrow, it stops you losing separation against IFR traffic climbing out of London City.
You would need to divert to your planned diversion, and if that is closes for any reason to your alternate diversion. If necessary call a PAN or MAYDAY. Of course you have diversionary landing sites planned for every flight as any airfield may close at any moment e.g. due to an accident
I missed you requesting startup clearance. I am not sure whether you edited that out of the video, I think not. Anyway here in the Netherlands you have to request startup clearance at controlled airports, also for vfr flights. And I thought that when you perform a vfr flight, you just have to squawk 7000 (1200 in the US). Indeed weird that you have to squawk other codes all the time.
It’s the way it’s set up for VFR flights generally operating in class G. They use conspicuity codes, each unit has a set of codes and recycles them as aircraft come on and off frequency. It indicates to other units who the aircraft is talking to. It creates high workload all round.
Additionally, we also have a bunch of "listening squawks" that you can set yourself to indicate that you are tuned to a frequency, even if you haven't established 2way comms or requested a service from them. Used if you're flying near airspace and don't need a service. A radar operator might get reassurance you'll respond if they need you to.
I think the standard overhead join is a good thing, provided people do it properly. The whole house of cards falls apart when people start joining from all directions and it just causes chaos. And another thing… don’t “extend downwind” if it looks like an aircraft might not vacate and allow you to land. Just fly the pattern and go around, otherwise you bugger up the circuit for everyone else (assuming it’s busy). Just my ex FI observations !
Not just VFR flights. Most ATC units in Class G will allocate squawks to all the aircraft they are speaking to, whether IFR or VFR. @@TheFlyingReporter
SSR codes are as much for ATC to tell at a glance who, if anyone, is providing you with a service. It's not just for identifying an individual flight: that's what ORCAM squawks are for.
Got my initial PPL in France over 20 years ago. Flown all over Europe and now the US as well. Even though I spend a lot of time in the UK, and love it, I've always avoided flying there, because everything always seemed so weird and hyper-regulated.
Makes you wonder why transponder codes are still required when every aircraft is being forced to use mode-s and that comes with a unique 24bit identifier for every aircraft registered in the UK! So, why do they need yet another code to identify you on radar?
I still see non squawking aircraft on radar. No Mode S Mode A codes also show controllers who is controlling a particular aircraft to ease coordination. E.g. in the South West of England over Devon and Cornwall, aircraft may be being controlled by Newquay, Culdrose, Plymouth Military, Exeter, Cardiff, Western Radar, Swanwick Military or London ACC. Without individual Mode A codes it would be difficult to know who is controlling which aircraft.
I am a Brit, living in the US. That is nuts, all of it. Over complex, the squark chaos is why flight following is not doable (needs to have a unique tail number associated with each code from a pool, then the next controller knows you plan without the need for yet more comms)….which i guess drives the over complex service options as controllers have limited time, combined with the “help yourself to clouds” in Golf rather than hard VFR/IFR separation rules …..is just plain dangerous. A mid air collision is a mid air collision, Cessna vs 747….who cares. In the US, ATC treat me no different in my Bonanza to a 777 captain. And the standard overhead thing…….nothing more dangerous than descending into potentially concentrated NORDO traffic……surely a 45 to downwind or a cross midfield to a midfield downwind join at patter altitude is much less complex, predictable, less likely to be impacted by low cloud/MVFR (so consistent) and therefore safer for all concerned. Holy cow, i have flown in the UK once (i learned to fly in the US) and it seemed complex and haphazard both at the same time. Good luck……!
US ATC is the gold standard. Most controllers will go out of the way to help a GA pilot. Only time I heard them get frustrated was with those who should have known better.
I did my PPL in Europe, and when I came back to the UK I was sorely disappointed with the amount of burocracy and lack of freedom to go about your business in a sensible manner. I've put 2 hrs in my log book in 5 years...
The standard overhead join surely is nothing for very dense airspace. For smaller and midsize airports or where there may be no radio service at all II found it a good way to get an overview of what's going on below me before joining. One strange thing in the UK is that due to the large number of USAF bases which are manned by USAF ATC personal one quickly gets exposed to a variant of flying in the US. Basically those controllers do their American thing unless it conflicts with British rules in which case those take priority. You known you ended up with a USAF unit when your call's content appears to be ignored and the reply is a "SQUAWK and IDENT". Even though IFR in G provides no separation many ATC units do have radars and will use them to give you useful advice along the lines "traffic at 12 o'clock at half a mile." They just leave the conclusion that turning might be a good idea to you 🙂 Some UK ATC units are totally overloaded at times. LONDON INFO on a Saturday afternoon when everybody and their granny are flying their carpets around the local church tower come to mind. To describe how bad it is - for those who are radio amateurs, think of a super rare DX station buried under calls. That bad - and yes, contesting experience does help. On the positive size, they are gold when they have time. There are stories circulating about pilots ordering a pizza via LONDON INFO. The forwarding of information from one unit to the next does not always work. Generally it works between civilian ATC units but not between civilian and military or military and military units. The one radio phrase to know is "FREECALL" which means your information have not been forwarded to the next (probably military) ATC unit so tell them everything and your shoe size. The standard "CONTACT" means information have been forwarded.
While calling ahead for PPR is always a wise choice, new thing creeping in is PPR by email only. Like we've got plenty of time to sit around and await a response, especially in a poor phone signal area. Time to spare, go by air. Maybe some airfields are keen to get the number of visitors down to justify closure & cash the land up for "luxury apartments".
Video that had to be done 😂 I would very much like you to delve further into the mixed VFR and IFR flying in a single flight. You learn about it on the flight planning form but then how is this correctly used in practise?
Nice one Jon. Yes things are done differently here. Does that make us better pilots? Not sure myself as I have a Canadian licence as well along with having flown in a few other countries where things are done very differently.
Last time I flew in the UK was 2006, and we used FIS/RIS/RAS. Shortly after that, things move to Basic/Traffic/Deconfliction... Sounds like they're going back to the old ways to match up with the rest of ICAO?
A possible 6th weird thing in the UK vs (at least) the US is the lack of use of ADSB/UAT. In the US having ADSB-In on your MFD or iPad (or both) is incredibly useful as a secondary source of situational awareness. From what I understand, people generally have portable transmitter/receivers and they don't necessarily interoperate. Obviously eyes outside is the best, but it really doesn't hurt to have an audio message when an F-18 comes up on you fast from a training mission in the valley.
There is quite a lot of ADSB in and out in the U.K. with portable devices like Skyecho being popular but not very good due to the lack of external antennas, there are other devices but if I am critical of some of the more Micky mouse bits of kit it will only start a war on here. Probably the best non certified bit of kit is the Air Avonics AT-1 that does ADSB & FLARM, because it is permanently fitted to the aircraft it is too expensive for the cheapskates but as with everything you only get what you pay for.
Here's a weird one - my motorcycle exhaust sound level has to be below my country's maximum legal level of dB, whereas the light aircraft flying over my house on a quiet Sunday afternoon can use straight-through exhaust pipes and my whole town can hear it!
Don't get me started on that... Every weekend (over NW Reading) when the weather is good, there are multiple AC practising aerobatics above our house. Drives all the locals crazy. So selfish and inconsiderate. Even local wedding services have to be paused for ten minutes until they leave. Just imagine someone regularly visiting outside your house revving a Harley.
@@josue_kaythat's incorrect. Deconfliction service is for IFR traffic only, and can be only given if the aircraft is flying above the minimum safe altitude for that ATC sector.
lol I can do your #1 better. All flights (even VFR to some degree) require a flight plan filed in advance here in the Philippines. Seems simple enough, except the flight plan is a physical paper form. That you have to deliver to tower. Then a duplicate given to the police as well. None of that pick your flight plan up as you go, or flight following for VFR. One of the local ultralight club's airspace bubble used to be the exception so long as you stayed in it (SFC-1000ft) but even that they're trying to require a flight plan for every takeoff. Most members come in and do 15 in a day. 🤷♀️ They wanna apply commercial flight policy onto GA and it's gonna be its demise.
Fully supportive of PPR - deconflicts private aircraft from scheduled services and also removes the risk to maintenance staff working on the airfield and runways.
I personally find the whole PPR thing a complete faf, I understand the rationale but as you say most airfields abroad (and some in the UK) manage perfectly well without it. Its so refreshing to not have to PPR when flying in France. You can avoid many of the squark changes by simply not asking for a LARS ATC service. A basic service is pretty useless anyway, I only tend to ask for a Traffic service if I need it in poor visibility
Back in the 90s I flew US registered light aircraft out of Lakenheath to airports in the UK. I have to admit I was always getting yelled at because I'd do 'American Joins' when landing. Elstree hated us! But tolerated us because we'd buy their fuel! Also flying 'point to point;' IFR flights in single Pipers all over the place, and the odd flight over to France and Ireland. And of course flying at night! Great fun though!
Nothing bonkers about the multiple ssr code changes. It means us ATCO's know exactly who, if anybody, is working which aircraft. Given that you're flying around the very congested and complex airspace of the south east of England, should you inadvertently stray somewhere you shouldn't be we know exactly who you're talking to so we can speak to them immediately should there be a conflict of traffic. If you stayed on the same code for the whole time it would take significantly longer to do so and thus increasing the risk of a conflict of traffic. I'm sure it's frustrating but it's effectively due to geography.
The main problem being that such a small airspace is divided into too many ATC units above the airport control zones. Pretty old fashioned and inefficient. The rest of Europe does it differently.
Here in Spain, we get one (personal) SSR-Code for the entire flight upon calling ATC for the first time. After that, ATC will always know how you are and your flight details at any time, just like flight following in the US. Spain is far from perfect, but ATC is actually pretty good.
We have all those things in the US, but they are rare exceptions rather than the rule. PPR is generally for private or military fields. Squawk codes sometimes change, but usually controllers pass along your code and data to the next controller. In the eastern US we have so little Class G that I’ve only done it once, but same rules (honor system with no separation service.) Overheads are almost exclusively done by military planes. In GA we don’t like anyone descending in the pattern.
No such animal as the overhead join in the US; more than that, a lot of circuit sides are determined by noise abatement considerations, and if you did an overhead join on the non-pattern side of the airport, you would get yelled at... what a lot of older pilots, particularly Navy ones, will do, is what we call a "360 overhead", where you join the extended centreline at ~1500 feet, and just above your touchdown point, break in the direction of the pattern, and fly a more or less continuous circle around the pattern to touchdown. This is particularly useful when flying aircraft with poor visibility straight ahead , as the runway will remain visible out the side of the aircraft until very short final. But most of us who didn't do military flight training join mid-downwind, usually at a 45-degree angle...
I'm happy you are warning foreign pilots about "basic service". I was rather disappointed to find out that UK FIS "basic service" does not include traffic advisories like it does in almost every other country I've flown in. Almost collided with a glider, and thought - that's strange that they didn't call it out to me, and the glider was not sending out ADSB or FLARM. I though, perhaps the UK radar was not picking them up... Found out after I completed my trip that "basic service" definitely matched the name.
@@adampoultney8737 Very possible that I didn't see the glider on my ipad due to the position of the SE2, can't be sure. This is why I like to talk to get traffic services - an extra pair of eyes to help avoid a collision. In some countries, they also help you by warning about active airspace you are about to stumble into, parachuting activity, and other very useful things. Next time I'm in the UK I'll explicitly request traffic advisories.
@@dermick under a basic service, you're supposed to get general information on traffic (like you said, paragliding activity, etc), and if it's a Radar unit, and they believe a collision might occur, specific traffic info. Some units will be more generous with the traffic info under a basic service than others, but even under a deconfliction service, the responsibility to avoid collision is ultimately the pilot's responsibility. Also, if the ATCO can't see anything on their radar, they will be unable to pass traffic info (where I work we have some blind spots below certain levels due to terrain).
The main point to learn here about Basic Service is that it can be, and often is, provided by someone who doesn’t have a radar, hence very generic traffic information, if any at all. If you require traffic information, you ask for a Traffic Service.
So Squak codes on departure are all the same. What is a Squak code en-route related too? There seems to be many, I've no idea what they relate too. Cheers
It allows ATC to see who, if anyone, you are in contact with in case they need to let you know about conflicting traffic or going into restricted airspace.
@@SimonAmazingClarke It depends on the ATC unit. Those that don’t have radar might have only one code but it shows others who you are in contact with. For example, in this video, Redhill doesn’t have radar but the squawk makes flights talking to them visible to the Gatwick controllers so they can quickly deal with the situation if someone has a problem and inadvertently enters the Gatwick zone. For those ATC units with radar, the first two digits show who you are in contact with the third and fourth can be allocated by the controller to help him/her track you. Having said that, the rules concerning allocation of squawks can vary from one country to another!
Left-hand circuits are considered "standard" in the UK but in my experience there are roughly as many left-hand as right-hand circuits, just depends on the aerodrome. Usually it's due to noise abatement requirements.
PPR is quite common for small airfields in Germany, too. And traffic services using group squawk codes is also totally normal. The reason, at least in Germany, is that there are a lot of small planes and they are not obliged to contact FIS (which is a traffic service for information, no air traffic control). So in order to signal that you are on the frequency of a traffic service, you get the corresponding squawk assigned. You fly VFR, i.e., as you explained, you are responsible. On a nice day near the islands in the north sea, there might be dozens of planes in the sector which makes it impossible for FIS to ensure traffic information. So they as well might inform you, that traffic information is limited or even not available. And even if it is… it is just a help.
When entering a new FIS sector, we also get a new squawk; however, we directly switch to that squawk without changing to 7000 first.
Some CTR also assign VFR group squawks to every plane, Hamburg, I think, does it. Smaller Airports just let you stay on 7000. For an air traffic controller, the squawk codes help: Let’s say you are close to their airspace and they need to contact you for whatever reason? Seeing your FIS group code lets them know that you are on FIS frequency and that they can contact you via their collegues. That is by the way the reason for transponder mandatory zones (TMZ), where you also have to squawk a published group code to signal that you monitor a particular frequency.
So… taking off with 7000, contacting FIS and getting a 70xx squawk, announcing that you are about to enter a TMZ and will be back, then switching frequency and squawking the TMZ code, contacting FIS again after passing the TMZ and getting the 70xx code assigned again, leaving the sector, beimg asked to contact the next sector by your current FIS operator (they hand you over with all your data) and getting the new 70yy-code… quite normal. Your squawk always indicates your frequency, and 7000 leaves everybody wondering if and where you are listening.
I am, however, surprised that you do not fly on the left side!
The main reason for PPR is noise-management, especially at airfields where there's some stress with locals concerning noise. Limits on movements may have been agreed, so they may need to manage the number of visiting aircraft to remain within the agreed cap on movements.
Shouting ‘clear prop’ in an enclosed aircraft always seems a bit silly to me. Must date back to the aircraft with open cockpits.
It is especially funny as those who do that rarely let more than one second pass before they start the engine. Possible bystanders need to be fast!
Shades of "Get Smart"? (vintage TV spy-comedy)
Before you slide the canopy closed 😎
@@keyboard5494 Ok, that might be the case. However, for this purpose, I have a checklist that also includes this check right before starting the engine (and also look sideways-back as far as you can to see if someone is next to your plane).
@@hepdepaddellooking for this comment 😅
A few decades ago I had my private licence in Australia and while travelling around Britain arranged a few flights from Elmdon Airport Birmingham to get my required hours in. I took up a little Piper Cub and flew mainly South West from Elmdon. The notable difference I found from the air was just how close towns and villages are in England compared to Oz. Not being a native I found it harder to navigate as one township often blended into another making them difficult to identify. I appreciated once I got home just how easy I had it identifying well spaced checkpoints. England sure is beautiful from the air though and I'm so glad I experienced it.
@johnphelps I did 95% of my flying several decades ago in South Africa, Rhodesia ( as it was then ), Botswana, and Swaziland up to and including commercial pilot with all the ratings. I renewed my licence in the UK in the early 90's from Biggin Hill. Even then flying in the UK was a nightmare VFR, constantly talking to someone, resetting frequencies, traffic lookout, took all the fun out of flying- I gave up- and don't even talk about the cost of it. You ( not you personally ) can keep it!
Here in Canada you squawk 1200 unless you are told otherwise. Since my home airport is controlled I always have a squawk code, even for local flights. You keep the squawk for the duration of your flight, no "frequency change approved, squawk VFR " in Canada. VFR flight following isn't a thing due to spotty radar coverage outside of areas like southern Ontario.
PPR airports exist, but only if they're privately owned. Local examples include Mabel Lake CBF9 (part of a golf course) and Fort Langley CBQ2 (a private business). RCAF bases are PPR as well. Unless you have bona fide business on the base the answer will be NO.
Our preferred way to join the circuit at uncontrolled airports is to cross mid field then join downwind. At controlled airports you can join just about anywhere.
1200 for VFR is virtually universal except in countries with 3rd world airspace systems! Same for VFR here in Australia.
As a controller, having dedicated banks of SSR codes assigned to individual units is *hugely* helpful. If you're flying under or around my airspace, you could conceivably be in receipt of a service from London Information, Luton, Southend, Norwich, Farnborough, Cambridge or nobody at all, and wearing a squawk to reflect that makes life much, much easier when it comes to coordination and, ultimately, keeping you and others safe.
I immediately realised the benefits of having this mechanism during my flight training many years ago. I think it is incredibly smart. This is actually what should be adopted in the rest of the world ---- just one little task for the crew, but improves safety hugely.
The reason for changing to local squawks is so we can look at the radar and tell who is working each aircraft.
Is this only for VFR aircraft?
@@aafjeyakubu5124 and IFR if they don't have an ORCAM squawk.
@@david1731048 OK, maybe a dumb question then . . . would the IFR without an ORCAM squawk typically be a local IFR? Maybe e.g. training? I don't fly in Europe much and have to say, my experience has been different than what's depicted in the video.
@@aafjeyakubu5124 Yes, an IFR flight without an ORCAM squawk could be a training flight, or a repositioning flight between airfields that are close to each other. Other cases are IFR helicopters (such as Helimed/Rescue) that usually fly VFR, but due weather have to go IFR, so they would be given a local IFR squawk.
Flight plans, or a lack of them, is another weird thing I noted when I last flew in the UK. On my way up from Switzerland I filled flight plans all the way to my destination. Not a problem closing and opening the plans at my arrival airport but at my destination they didn’t seem to know what a flight plan was and didn’t know how to close it. After explaining what it was I was told that UK pilots didn’t use flight plans. We also had PPR for small airports in Switzerland but you were expected to call them on the phone rather than e-mail them and it was an opportunity for them to tell you about any issues related to the airport which might affect your flight. I thought it was a good idea from that perspective. Frequently you would call up and if there were no issues you would just get a recorded message giving anyone who called permission to land.
Yep. Pre-filed FPLs are not routinely used for VFR flight in the UK. Means we have to constantly pass our message and submit FPLs over the RT for different parts of our flight.
Filing a FPL, and passing your message, are mutually exclusive in the U.K. Until we get joined up ATC that will always be the case for flights conducted outside the ATC Route structure (Airways) whether VFR or IFR.
In the UK PPR can either be a phone call, email or online form. Sometimes airfields have more than one method but get huffy when you use the one that isn't their preferred option. It's maddening!
One thing that seems to be misunderstood sometimes is that VFR or IFR in UK Class G is (to a controller) less relevant. No separation is provided in Class G between any type of flight. Just traffic information under TS or deconfliction ADVICE under DS (which has similar dimensions to separation criteria in CAS) dependant on what type of service you are receiving.
E.g. flying IFR on a Traffic service gives you no priority over an aircraft flying VFR on a BS or TS. Or flying IFR under a DS gives you no priority of anybody else in Class G. In fact, the definition of DS requires the controller to keep you (DS aircraft) away from other aircraft by giving you vectors or level allocations, (which are advisory), not the other way around. Pilots requesting a DS should be prepared to be routed around other traffic and not expect the other aircraft to be moved out of your way.(unless coordination is agreed)
I have done most of my flying in the U.K. but am now based in the U.S
1. No PPR in US mainly because they have a lot of uncontrolled federally or state funded airports which means that landing fees are all free!
2. Squawks. Conspicuity is 1200 vs 7000. They say squawk VFR in the US.
When you get Flight following (leads in to the next point) you typically get one squawk for the whole duration of your flight.
3 in Class G mainly out west in the US up to 14,500’ you can do IFR without a clearance. Most class G on the east is only up to 1200’ AGL.
4. Basic and Traffic I miss a lot. Flight following is good but not always available based on ATC workload.
5. Overhead joins I think are great and I wish they were the preferred method. You can do it in the US more of a teardrop. But they prefer going at 45 degrees on the downwind at traffic pattern altitude, which I think makes it tricky to space yourself in with other traffic.
Conspicuity is not the same as VFR. In this clip he also goes to 7000 before he gets the conspicuity code.
7000 is the VFR conspicuity code
@QBziZ it is the same. In the UK, when told to squawk conspicuity it means squawk 7000 if VFR or 2000 if IFR.
Some medium sized GA airfields (such as Redhill, Shoreham) have their own custom squawk to tell other radar operators who the aircraft is getting an ATC service from, seems like quite a good system.
PPR is a useful opportunity to find out about closed taxiways (or worse, cafe), runway and circuit direction, fuel availability, curfew etc at the destination. Regardless of the need for PPR, setting off without a quick call to the destination seems reckless.
And the standard overhead join is a good way of safely joining - circling overhead is a chance to observe the windsock and traffic, and positions the aircraft to join mid downwind with plenty of time to look and listen for other aircraft.
I like the channel (especially since you don’t say “papa alpha 28” any more) and there’s plenty of weird stuff in the UK. But to me this video mostly highlights what we’re getting right
The last report on the UK airspace said it was completely mismanaged and that airspace at airports needs to be confined like the rest of the world. Sadly nothing has been done and airspace in the UK continues to have swathes of areas unflyable due to mismanagement.
The air traffic system in the UK must be managed by the same bunch of morons as the railway. In the US, I get in my aircraft and if at a controlled airfield, I tell ATC who I am, where I am, and what I am GOING to do. ATC approves or disapproves. The rest is up to me .
I’m rather a fan of the overhead join; that descending deadside turn can be pleasingly sporty :)
Agreed. CAA Safety Sense leaflet 6 shows an overhead join with a semi circle from downwind end of the runway to upwind end of the runway, descending overhead. Sporty, needs 1500+ fpm descent.
However another CAA publication, CAP1535P in the airfield joining procedures (p103) shows an aircraft arriving overhead the downwind end of the runway, trundling well to the dead side, descending there and returning on crosswind.
No problem, each to is own? Well say you're arriving shortly and the guy ahead says overhead join. 3 minutes later you assume he's well clear of the overhead and already downwind turning base and so begin your own sporty version of the join. Your engine blocks your view of the guy now on his crosswind join all the way round. Loud complaints over the radio as you descend on top of him.
Flying reporter says in the video it needs to be done right ... and don't laugh ... but his Sky Demon track was somewhere between the two CAA suggestions ...
@@neilthomason8206 and that's before we take into account the byzanthine and myriad non-standard circuit patterns in use at seemingly most UK GA fields... do you come out of that descending turn at the end of the runway and fly a sort of shortcut early crosswind, or do you extend out and effectively fly the entire non-standard pattern. Have seen (and done tbh) both, but no clear way to know which the a/c ahead of you has elected for unless their RT is decent and they anticipate others might want to know more than just 'overhead', or you have them on mk 1 eyeball.
Same, although here in New Zealand we don't like to use the word "dead" in aviation - we call it the non-traffic side
When I first started flying here in OZ, the SOJ was routine, descend on the dead side and join crosswind. Now it's pattern height and join downwind on the 45 per the 'mericans. I find this less safe. You are at pattern height trying to find aircraft at, well, pattern height. Much easier on the dead side taking your time working out what's in the pattern. YMMV of course
@@kevinblack8365agree and prefer the 500 abv join with a dead side letdown, unless conditions/reasons suggest otherwise.
Any one else struggle to say "conspicuity" and notice others saying quickly to not be noticed or just me? 😅
it's impossible to say with your teeth in.
I can only assume they deliberately chose a difficult word to say as a prank. They can't have failed to notice when they were planning the change...
Took me months to be able to say it on the radio without messing it up 😂😂😂
I just say 7000 😂
It's definitely tricky even as a virtual pilot or controller.
Interesting info! Here in Finland we have some PPR fields, mostly private ones. And the squak code stays the same throughout the flight. We need to file a flightplan if any part of our flight goes into controlled airspace. And the whole "dead side" thing is completely alien. You can join left or right traffic circuit, unless there is a noise abatement area on one side. On controlled airports the ATC will tell you how to join, on class G airfields the standard practice is to fly around the field once and then join (left or right) downwind. If there is other traffic on the uncontrolled field, you can join where you fit without disrupting the traffic already in the circuit. My home airport is sometimes controlled and sometimes not.
Watching the video, one of the top 5 oddities would seem to be the pilot telling the controller on initial call what QNH (altimeter setting) he / she has dialed in and then the controller confirming if it is correct. Why not just the controller reading the correct QNH and the pilot setting it and reading back (the U.S. convention)?
CAA CAP413. Radiotelephony manual. Don’t ask me why. Seems pointless. But it’s in the RT manual.
Achieves the same result either way, and takes exactly the same amount of time.
If the pilot happens to already have the right QNH, then same amount of time. But if not, it takes an extra reply: controller corrects QNH and then pilot reads back the right one (I presume).
If you're flying out of a busier airport with ATIS, your initial RT call is to tell ATC that you've listened to it and which version it was, so you (should!) fully understand the prevailing aerodrome conditions before calling them for a start, and you're confirming the QNH setting according to the version of information. It's a short bit of RT from the pilot "Tower, AIRCRAFT TYPE AND REG, LOCATION, information x, QNH nnnn, request start", but conveys a lot to ATC about the readiness of the pilot, so I can see the benefit of standardising on that way around.
PPR is such a strange thing. Having worked in a small control tower for a number of years at what was at the time a busy aerodrome we never required PPR. It makes such a small difference - unless you really are very pushed for ground space to park arriving aircraft it is quite pointless!
A lot of airfields in the UK have strict movement limits
Thanks for the nice video! It was fun to see you fly out of Redhill Aerodrome - I learned to fly there in 1989. It looks just the same! Lots of adventures flying to North Wales with mountain bikes. Also a few trips to France, Germany and the Channel Islands. I moved to California in 1994, so things have obviously changed over the years. But I remember the use of QNH & QFE (think “field elevation”) for the altimeter setting. Also, the existence of the “IMC rating”, which allows IMC flight in uncontrolled airspace, but not true IFR clearances. Really useful in the UK because of the mostly benign, but ever-changing weather. I also remember landing fees everywhere and pricey fuel. But I don’t remember having to change the squawk code all the time!
Here in New Zealand we are drilled in the standard overhead join also, but 1500 ft not 2000 agl…and it helps to have less traffic than UK! It’s actually a great way to have a good look at an airfield, like a stop and think…
Also you will find gliders climbing in those cumulus in class G, not talking to anyone and probably without a transponder (but almost certainly with FLARM)
And extremely hard to see until you are less than a mile from them
@@gintautasnik5214 Absolutely! Many cross-country gliders now have strobes on their nose, which is great but only works if they are head-on to you.
Gliders climbing in cloud should call each other on 130.535 in the UK, but since this is not known to power pilots, it isn’t as useful as it could be, but i guess 98% of glider pilots stop at cloud base. In general, they are rarely, if ever, taking a service in VMC or IMC. One glider pilot estimated that by the time he changes frequency and talks to someone, he usually loses 400 feet. Flarm now almost universal, and there are quite a few with transponders and ADSB these days.
I am reminded of the Goon Show - from memory it goes a bit like this:
tinkler tinkery clunk clunk ,bang bang
Neddie Seagoon: there it is!, we have invented the Aeroplane!
Door: knock, knock
Neddie: yes, hello, who are you?
Official: we are . . . The AIR MINISTRY!
- ~ ~ Bump ! Bump ! Baddahmmm ! ~ ~ -
Neddie: yes, and?!
Official: Would you like to fly your newly invented device?
Neddie: oh yes!
Official: then just fill in this form so we can put the air in place above the street.
I logged a lot of hours in the US a few years ago, it’s such a breath of fresh air, none of this crap we have to comply with in the UK.
I don't like hearing and seeing "clear prop" and an immediate start. Defeats the object. Might have been an edit here but I see it frequently in the wild.
I thought the same .. see this happen so many times.
I knew a guy who would yell "CLEAR!" as he he was hitting the starter.
The audible call is to warn anyone you may not have seen. It isn't carried out in lieu of doing a good lookout...
Showing us how it's done...
9:21 For a standard overhead join, says what he's going to do is _"then join the pattern crosswind."_
10:53 Then goes nowhere near the crosswind leg and joins halfway down the down wind leg.
I suppose you were technically flying crosswind, just nowhere near the location in the pattern that's known as crosswind.
Don't people find that kind of terminology ambiguous/confusing?
PPR is very occasionally used in USA. My single experience was flying into a US Air Force airport to meet with other researchers based there.
In the UK the non Orcam squawks are assigned to different ATC units. It makes it very easy for other units to work out who is working the aircraft.
In an ideal world everyone unit would be using the same electronic systems which would enable seamless handovers and the retention of a squawk. However the cost required to put this into service would be astronomical. I do agree overhead joins are a very old school join method. Now we have many airfields with ATIS's, full ATC, FISO and Air ground. There is no real need for overhead joins. Overhead joins were designed for the aircraft to fly overhead and look at the signal Square on the airfield to check the circuit pattern and runway use.
In Australia, PPR is very common for smaller airfields, which are owned mostly by private landholders or town councils. It's great to have a reason to ring up a farmer and chat about the recent weather and wildlife. Overhead join is standard because it's considered safer. What feels weird about Australia is that only the very busiest airports have a tower or local radio service.
We have a similar overhead, 500 ft above pattern alt, descend after enter at a 45 degree entry to downwind. I often use fly over the airport at pattern altitude from the opposite side perpendicular to the runway, checking for downwind traffic, and making a left turn to joint downwind (assuming left traffic). If it’s busy I enter from a 45 and avoid the pattern.
I consider PPR as polite plus it is useful, otherwise one time we would have turned up at a flooded airfield! As for squawking it has also been useful. Going between Luton and Stansted they alerted me when I was too close to them, days before GPS.
As a UK Air Traffic Controller this is all completely normal to me. The freedom of Class G is amazing too.
@@atco2 even in clouds? VMC into IMC is the deadliest sport of all, regardless the definition of the airspace. The benefits of flight following in The US combined with its efficiency from controller to controller are huge in my experience as a pilot and from talking to controllers (recently as Oshkosh), they have dozens of pilots a day who get into trouble, that they can immediately help…because they are on VFR following with a unique squark/tail reference, especially if a pop IFR is needed in a hurry while hand flying. I’d encourage you to objectively compare the 2, i have flown in both systems, one is a lot safer than the other.
What you are familiar with especially as it's all you know will appear "normal" to you of course . . .
Great video - I suspect a) many non-UK pilots are surprised when they fly into UK airspace by some of our strange ways; and b) vice-versa, UK pilots can easily be like a fish out of water in European, US, Australian or other airspace worldwide.
There's also surprises for IFR pilots flying into our airspace - my good friend Matt Guthmiller did a good video on his perspective that way around some years ago as well..!
Lastly, it'd be wrong to suggest that such oddities are unique to the UK: many other jurisdictions have (sometimes very!) non-standard approaches to joins, radar services, permissions required, reporting requirements etc etc. Best practice is to always read the ICAO Differences section of the AIP of the country you're flying into if not already familiar with their strange ways!
Matt's video was good. He had no idea what the ATC were asking him!
@@fredfred2363 indeed! I've had the boot on that foot too during my Cherokee flight to Australia as well! It can be bewildering!! :)
EGMC tower controllers are absolutely amazing. Love those guys, looking forward to getting to talk to them again in March.
American pilot here that lived and flew in the UK in from 2007-2012. What I noticed was the really long, drawn out RT calls. Too much information. I always thought it could be simplified. I sure miss flying there.
Having to get a PPR before taking off would ruin it for me and is completely unimaginable in the US.
It takes less than a minute and is no hassle at all.
@@gap9992 when you're in the air and you haven't decided at which airport you want to land, it very much is.
@@Kaipeternicolas Yet you have to get clearance for IFR flight plans (I think) and yet that doesn't cause you trouble?
@@KenFullman if you fly IFR yes. And no, that’s no trouble at all. I can change destination and route as I please while I’m in the air. I don’t need any prior permission to land anywhere. I can also pick up my IFR clearance in the air if weather allows for that and I want to do that. It’s just a lot more flexibility.
Basic Service actually sounds very useful. It's almost the kind of enroute dispatching and flight monitoring that airlines give their pilots - at least, in theory. The "Overhead Join" is also common in Canada (but at 500' above the circuit). This is very useful at airports where there is little information available regarding latest status, wind, runway condition, terrain situation and such. Thanks for this interesting topic. Much appreciated.
In practice basic service isn’t all that useful at all. ATC will only give you traffic info if they (a) see it and (b) they have capacity to pass the message on, The radio can be often filled with other pilots requesting and getting a basic service so there’s little opportunity to get any meaningful information from ATC
@@geoffreycoanAgreed. Some ATC units such as Farnborough Radar can become swamped (usually in better weather) and cannot offer anything useful. In fact, the radio can become so busy that it becomes a flight distraction. Sometimes the only useful way to operate is to listen out for the appropriate QNH then go on your way, keeping a very good lookout.
What is “enroute dispatching and flight monitoring”?
@@geoffreycoan(c) if there is a definite risk of collision
Thanks. Interesting. Certainly for a French pilot the level of service you get from ATC in the UK is something to get used to. Regarding standard join it is definately a great technique that we use in France for all non towered airfields. It is critical for safety (trafic and wind). You can find many accidents in the US because of lack of proper recongition before landing.
What about flying clear of cloud by so many metres etc?!
Living in in Southern Ontario Canada the only PPR we see are on private strips. I've landed at around 50 airports or strips within a 200 mile radius of my home airport with no need to call in advance. You can get flight following pretty much anywhere here, but I typically only get it to go through the Toronto area class Charlie (Our largest city). We also get the US ADSB feed for weather and some traffic alerts. All the red tape you have to go through is crazy! The only thing that comes close here is when we want to cross into the United States. Several procedures needed to avoid a radio call from an F16. The exception to that is if you have flight following they can route you through the US if your destination is back in Canada.
Yeh. It’s a bit antiquated here. There are positive noises on the horizon about making things easier. We will see!
Yeah, the levels of ATC service are interesting - I flew to Old Sarum from Hilversum and though I was prepared for it, getting the question what service I wanted still got me thinking “WHAT do I want…”
PPR is also driven by the aerodromes license. An ordinary licence (for a 168 aerodrome) is only for the owner/operator and anyone else they permit.
That all sounds very familar to a Canadian pilot except the transponder code madness. We also have PPR although mostly reserved for small private aerodromes. Even the overhead join is very similar as is the use of the term circuit.
One thing that I didn't see mentioned - Having to call the tower, by telephone no less, before you can go to your plane and start preflight checks. Not sure how many UK aerodromes enforce this. In Europe we just go to the plane and turn the radios on and call the tower directly and give intentions, ask permission to start up, taxi etc.
As a UK pilot I’ve never had to call the tower before going to my plane. What airports have you experienced this at?
@@cameron747100 EGBJ
I received my Private license at RAF Woodbridge in the late '70's. Fun flying. Had to know Queen's rules, FAA rules, and USAF rules. Aircraft had US registration. It was always fun to land at small airports, got some funny looks! Came back to the States and had to learn how to fly on the right side of the road again.
I wonder if the PPR requirement in the UK is because legally you must have the landowners permission to take-off or land there. If you haven't PPR'd, you therefore don't have the legal permission to land there except in an emergency.
PPR otherwise makes total sense, for example to actually find out if the airfield is safe to use or even still exists. Many small grass strips can appear and disappear literally within days. For my own strip, if anyone wants to fly in I walk the field to check the rabbits haven't been digging which otherwise could spoil someone's day.
It's the 21st century. You should have an integrated ATC system, so that only 1 code is required per flight. Any controller can click on the aircraft label and see who has jurisdiction. Also, a somewhat ICAO compliant airspace and services would improve things considerably
Very similar to flying in Switzerland. PPR on most small airfields. Some require it a week in advance (and refouse it though), some are happy if you ask when you start the approach (very handy if you need a toilet stop). Traffic Service is common too, called FIS (flight information service), Overhead join is also common on most small airfields. If you grew up with it, thos are the most normal things ;-)
Ash, Turweston near Brackley in Northamptonshire. Despite living relatively close for 7 years I never found the time to take a look at the airfield, but I looked at loads of others in the region!
Hinton on the Hedges is the other side of Brackley and famous for being the place where Nigel Farage was in a aircraft crash.
Hi Jon, I frankly don’t understand the way you did this standard overhead join … it looks at 10:55 as if you are joining the circuit(height) mid-downwind iso of beginning crosswind leg. And to get down it almost looks like a steep ‘spiral’ iso a straight line along upwind on the dead side. Thank you for clarifying.
If you have any kind of speed on, and a shortish runway, there isn't room for a straight line upwind on the dead side or you will be flying way too far upwind on some kind of bomber-command circuit. Keep it tight. An OHJ to a long runway can give you all the room you need to do a straight line upwind, but generally OHJs are prevalent at smaller uncontrolled airfields rather than big airports
My biggest frustration is the lack of arrival procedure flying. Almost always instead of flying the arrival in the flight plan we were manually vectored.
Arrival procedures are designed to flow traffic efficiently, but instead manual vectors all over the place creating more work for EVERYBODY.
It seems it's an ATC make-work decision to keep controllers employed.
Turweston is great. My share-o-plane is based there :)
It does seem odd to have to get PPR at an aerodrome that wants you to visit but I always call up beforehand, just to make sure that nothing has happened to prevent my arrival. On occasion I have been warned off for various reasons and I've gone somewhere else.
can you request the ppr over HF? or do you need to use civ methods like email or phonecall?
I am one of those pilots that struggles with the overhead join. I do need to practice it and would really love a detailed video on it. I've been flying now for quite a few years, but the aerodrome I trained at, and most that I generally visit, do not use overhead joins due to skydiving in the overhead.
Evening, at 10:29 were you overflying the Science museum at Wroughton?
Sorry if this is a rookie question, i have not flown since before covid so there may have been some changes , but flying IFR in G im assuming you still need to be IR rated and IFR equipt? as if i remember correctly VFR only (non ir /imc rated) must remain a minimum of 500ft from cloud / airspace ceiling
Yes, you need an instrument qualification.
Didn’t notice any traffic on the GPS, do you have a requirement for ADS-B/similar over there? I don’t know anyone here in the US that isn’t using some form of traffic in except a few antique a/c without electric, and even some of them use battery powered ones.
It’s not yet mandated. We had a government funded scheme to discount electronic conspicuity devices which has led to a mix of systems that are not interoperable. I have a set up that broadcasts and receives ADSB. It’s likely adsb will be mandated here soon.
What conspicuity device do you use? 2,500ft is not a great gliding day for us but gliders can circle at cloudbase, so hopping in an out of cloud on a thermic day doesn't sound a great idea to me.
PilotAware is probably the best as it shows Flarm, Power-Flarm, ADS-B/Mode-S, other Pilotaware equipped aircraft plus other conspicuity systems fed from a network of ground-based Open Glider Network repeaters (OGN-R). Nothing else provides this cross-system capability. I use PilotAware for every flight and also run and maintain a ground-based OGN-R repeater station.
Enjoyed the music throughout. Looks like a great start to the journey. Won't be long before Ben is in the left seat flying you around. Take care.
Funny enough, I am pretty sure that in the U.S. we can also freely enter clouds in Class G without being on an IFR flight plan / clearance. However, there are very very few places in the U.S. where Class G exists above 1200ft AGL.
Thanks for this interesting video 👍🏼.
Btw, besides PPR there is also a PN (prior notice) which is equally helpful for incoming traffic management. To humbly ask for permission and being gracefully granted it, is overdoing it in my opinion.
PPR is only reasonable on private airfields, not on public ones in my view.
Kind regards, Patrick (Switzerland)
One thing I noticed when I began flying in the UK after getting my PPL in the US is "pass your message"! It's unique to the UK and has caught out fliers arriving from Europe and North America. Will this change under the ICAO rules?
No
PPR is required at a number of European airports. Flying VFR in German airspace is like flying IFR, with FIS providing a truly fabulous radar and deconfliction service, including at weekends.
If German ATC is open
@@lucmatter9601 They are always open and extremely professional and friendly.
@@NDCDA62 I agree completely - no idea why they are always "Langen Info", but have different frequencies. German ATC is awesome.
VFR in Germany is certainly not anything close to flying IFR, but they do indeed offer a very decent and joined up FIS. Same for many other European mainland countries though.
@@sfak906I fly mainly IFR and there is very little difference between the two enroute. Anyway, I hope the U.K. follow Europe.
Enjoy the video thank you and I know what you mean when it comes to a standard overhead joint nobody knows how to do them properly! What would be useful is to do a video on actually how much it cost to run your own aircraft!
Do you still need to be IFR rated to fly IFR without clearance (I can't even believe I'm typing that last bit in a sentence that doesn't include "... and the NTSB/ATSB will be investigating..." ). Quite some years ago, I remember an FAA report, where they found that the "average life expectancy" for a VFR-only pilot flying into IMC is around 97 seconds(!) until the inevitable graveyard spiral takes them into the ground. 😭
Yes you need to have an instrument qualification.
I used to live a few hundred yards from Redhil aerodrome. Very handy for local flights! Moist of these things you show pkus a few more made me quit doing my PPL I didnt see any point. I was married to an American and flying in the states is SO FREE the uk is so full of controlled airspace and MATZ that you have to 'thread a needle' between G air spaces and controlled. It all frankly 'put me off'. In the RAF I was flying helicopters at the end but wanted to convert to fixed wing - but thought NAH I dont think ill bother. In the states if you own a microlight you can just hop in and take off and AWAY! Great videos.
The only restriction to my local UK airfield is.
Dont over fly the village which means it can be awkward if the wind is wrong.
Not a problem for me PPL (H)
We need PPR at some Aerodromes/Airfields in Ireland …I may be wrong but requesting “PPR” may mean a ground based controller would need to be be present when you arrive or their may not be an “Automated Payment method for landing fees/Parking etc….
As for Overhead Join ..I much rather approach Weston Airport Dublin with this method as I’m a student pilot and there are other flying schools at Weston Dublin…so on any given weekend the circuit will be very busy so you may need to Orbit on the over head at 1500ft before you decent to circuit height to avoid conflict
Another thing is the clearance “when established on the localiser descent on the glide path”. Other counties it’s just cleared ILS.
That clearance is issued when you are flying an ILS but starting the approach from above the platform altitude. ie you are vectored to an ILS at 3000 which has a platform of 2500. If you are cleared for an ILS then you are cleared to descend to the platform altitude which the controller may not want for a variety of reasons.
@@morgangajwhat are the possible reasons for not descending on the glide?
@kickedinthecalfbyacow7549 sorry, I haven't explained myself properly. You are cleared to descend on the glideslope, after intercepting the localiser. The 2500 platform and 3000 clearance isn't the best example, but they may want you on the glide from 3000 and 10nm or 4000 and 10nm as there could be traffic or airspace underneath that conflicts. They may not want you descending at your own discretion/rate to the platform altitude and then the glide. It is odd but often used
Could be an airspace restriction, where descending to the platform altitude immediately would take you outside of controlled airspace, or traffic - e.g. at Heathrow, it stops you losing separation against IFR traffic climbing out of London City.
So if you can't land, and you don't have PPR anywhere else, what do you do, keep flying until you run out of petrol?
You would need to divert to your planned diversion, and if that is closes for any reason to your alternate diversion. If necessary call a PAN or MAYDAY. Of course you have diversionary landing sites planned for every flight as any airfield may close at any moment e.g. due to an accident
I missed you requesting startup clearance. I am not sure whether you edited that out of the video, I think not. Anyway here in the Netherlands you have to request startup clearance at controlled airports, also for vfr flights. And I thought that when you perform a vfr flight, you just have to squawk 7000 (1200 in the US). Indeed weird that you have to squawk other codes all the time.
Start-up clearance is only a thing at a very small number of airfields in the UK
@@harryspeakup8452 Ok I see.
What's the reason for the constant squawk changes ,if other countries don't need that?
It’s the way it’s set up for VFR flights generally operating in class G. They use conspicuity codes, each unit has a set of codes and recycles them as aircraft come on and off frequency. It indicates to other units who the aircraft is talking to. It creates high workload all round.
Additionally, we also have a bunch of "listening squawks" that you can set yourself to indicate that you are tuned to a frequency, even if you haven't established 2way comms or requested a service from them.
Used if you're flying near airspace and don't need a service. A radar operator might get reassurance you'll respond if they need you to.
I think the standard overhead join is a good thing, provided people do it properly. The whole house of cards falls apart when people start joining from all directions and it just causes chaos. And another thing… don’t “extend downwind” if it looks like an aircraft might not vacate and allow you to land. Just fly the pattern and go around, otherwise you bugger up the circuit for everyone else (assuming it’s busy). Just my ex FI observations !
@@josephprice5872 What is a 'radar' operator?
Not just VFR flights. Most ATC units in Class G will allocate squawks to all the aircraft they are speaking to, whether IFR or VFR. @@TheFlyingReporter
SSR codes are as much for ATC to tell at a glance who, if anyone, is providing you with a service. It's not just for identifying an individual flight: that's what ORCAM squawks are for.
Got my initial PPL in France over 20 years ago. Flown all over Europe and now the US as well.
Even though I spend a lot of time in the UK, and love it, I've always avoided flying there, because everything always seemed so weird and hyper-regulated.
Makes you wonder why transponder codes are still required when every aircraft is being forced to use mode-s and that comes with a unique 24bit identifier for every aircraft registered in the UK! So, why do they need yet another code to identify you on radar?
I still see non squawking aircraft on radar. No Mode S
Mode A codes also show controllers who is controlling a particular aircraft to ease coordination. E.g. in the South West of England over Devon and Cornwall, aircraft may be being controlled by Newquay, Culdrose, Plymouth Military, Exeter, Cardiff, Western Radar, Swanwick Military or London ACC. Without individual Mode A codes it would be difficult to know who is controlling which aircraft.
Wow this took me back to my training. Now in the IFR world, these things I used to do seem so quaint and unnecessary.
How much does an aeroplane like that cost?
Another entertaining video, Jon 👌🏻 Love me an overhead join 👍🏻
I am a Brit, living in the US. That is nuts, all of it. Over complex, the squark chaos is why flight following is not doable (needs to have a unique tail number associated with each code from a pool, then the next controller knows you plan without the need for yet more comms)….which i guess drives the over complex service options as controllers have limited time, combined with the “help yourself to clouds” in Golf rather than hard VFR/IFR separation rules …..is just plain dangerous. A mid air collision is a mid air collision, Cessna vs 747….who cares. In the US, ATC treat me no different in my Bonanza to a 777 captain.
And the standard overhead thing…….nothing more dangerous than descending into potentially concentrated NORDO traffic……surely a 45 to downwind or a cross midfield to a midfield downwind join at patter altitude is much less complex, predictable, less likely to be impacted by low cloud/MVFR (so consistent) and therefore safer for all concerned.
Holy cow, i have flown in the UK once (i learned to fly in the US) and it seemed complex and haphazard both at the same time. Good luck……!
US ATC is the gold standard. Most controllers will go out of the way to help a GA pilot. Only time I heard them get frustrated was with those who should have known better.
This is what happens when there are no checks and balances to a bureaucracy which wants only to expand its role.
I did my PPL in Europe, and when I came back to the UK I was sorely disappointed with the amount of burocracy and lack of freedom to go about your business in a sensible manner. I've put 2 hrs in my log book in 5 years...
As a friend of mine said once, it can't be British if it's not made complicated!
The standard overhead join surely is nothing for very dense airspace. For smaller and midsize airports or where there may be no radio service at all II found it a good way to get an overview of what's going on below me before joining.
One strange thing in the UK is that due to the large number of USAF bases which are manned by USAF ATC personal one quickly gets exposed to a variant of flying in the US. Basically those controllers do their American thing unless it conflicts with British rules in which case those take priority. You known you ended up with a USAF unit when your call's content appears to be ignored and the reply is a "SQUAWK and IDENT".
Even though IFR in G provides no separation many ATC units do have radars and will use them to give you useful advice along the lines "traffic at 12 o'clock at half a mile." They just leave the conclusion that turning might be a good idea to you 🙂
Some UK ATC units are totally overloaded at times. LONDON INFO on a Saturday afternoon when everybody and their granny are flying their carpets around the local church tower come to mind. To describe how bad it is - for those who are radio amateurs, think of a super rare DX station buried under calls. That bad - and yes, contesting experience does help.
On the positive size, they are gold when they have time. There are stories circulating about pilots ordering a pizza via LONDON INFO.
The forwarding of information from one unit to the next does not always work. Generally it works between civilian ATC units but not between civilian and military or military and military units. The one radio phrase to know is "FREECALL" which means your information have not been forwarded to the next (probably military) ATC unit so tell them everything and your shoe size. The standard "CONTACT" means information have been forwarded.
While calling ahead for PPR is always a wise choice, new thing creeping in is PPR by email only. Like we've got plenty of time to sit around and await a response, especially in a poor phone signal area. Time to spare, go by air. Maybe some airfields are keen to get the number of visitors down to justify closure & cash the land up for "luxury apartments".
Video that had to be done 😂 I would very much like you to delve further into the mixed VFR and IFR flying in a single flight. You learn about it on the flight planning form but then how is this correctly used in practise?
Nice one Jon.
Yes things are done differently here.
Does that make us better pilots?
Not sure myself as I have a Canadian licence as well along with having flown in a few other countries where things are done very differently.
Hi Jon, loving the channel, can you tell me, do light aircraft have such a thing or similar to a black box?
Dean local to earls colne
Not normally Dean.
@@TheFlyingReporter thanks Jon
Last time I flew in the UK was 2006, and we used FIS/RIS/RAS. Shortly after that, things move to Basic/Traffic/Deconfliction... Sounds like they're going back to the old ways to match up with the rest of ICAO?
Yes Matthew, they’ve indicated a plan to change to ICAO standard FIS.
+1 back in the day when I flew we had RAS and RIS. Good to hear we might be moving back to those standards (or something analagous)
If visiting from abroad and Flight Information Service is requested what happens? Can they refuse ICAO procedure?
@@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 They will offer you the services they provide. You have no entitlement to other services
What does one do in an aircraft, like a piper cub, that has no radio?
Shout out the window
A possible 6th weird thing in the UK vs (at least) the US is the lack of use of ADSB/UAT. In the US having ADSB-In on your MFD or iPad (or both) is incredibly useful as a secondary source of situational awareness. From what I understand, people generally have portable transmitter/receivers and they don't necessarily interoperate.
Obviously eyes outside is the best, but it really doesn't hurt to have an audio message when an F-18 comes up on you fast from a training mission in the valley.
There is quite a lot of ADSB in and out in the U.K. with portable devices like Skyecho being popular but not very good due to the lack of external antennas, there are other devices but if I am critical of some of the more Micky mouse bits of kit it will only start a war on here. Probably the best non certified bit of kit is the Air Avonics AT-1 that does ADSB & FLARM, because it is permanently fitted to the aircraft it is too expensive for the cheapskates but as with everything you only get what you pay for.
Even in the US there can be airports where prior permission is required (i.e. they are privately owned). Ask Cleetus McFarland about that...
Here's a weird one - my motorcycle exhaust sound level has to be below my country's maximum legal level of dB, whereas the light aircraft flying over my house on a quiet Sunday afternoon can use straight-through exhaust pipes and my whole town can hear it!
Entitled people flying very old technology engine's.
Noise, Emissions, etc
Don't get me started on that...
Every weekend (over NW Reading) when the weather is good, there are multiple AC practising aerobatics above our house. Drives all the locals crazy.
So selfish and inconsiderate.
Even local wedding services have to be paused for ten minutes until they leave.
Just imagine someone regularly visiting outside your house revving a Harley.
@@fredfred2363 Sorry to hear that you have that to put up with 😠 Spot on with the Harley comment 👍
A lot of noise comes from the prop.
Not a pilot but Fly simulators. Not good at that lol. Found this video extremely interesting and learned a few things.
Thanks and fly safely.
Deconfliction service, is it used only for IFR trafic ?
No, but you may have to fly into IMC on ATC instructions, which would ideally require IFR.
@@josue_kaythat's incorrect. Deconfliction service is for IFR traffic only, and can be only given if the aircraft is flying above the minimum safe altitude for that ATC sector.
Yes
@@josue_kayincorrect. DS is only provided to IFR flights.
lol I can do your #1 better. All flights (even VFR to some degree) require a flight plan filed in advance here in the Philippines.
Seems simple enough, except the flight plan is a physical paper form. That you have to deliver to tower. Then a duplicate given to the police as well. None of that pick your flight plan up as you go, or flight following for VFR.
One of the local ultralight club's airspace bubble used to be the exception so long as you stayed in it (SFC-1000ft) but even that they're trying to require a flight plan for every takeoff. Most members come in and do 15 in a day. 🤷♀️ They wanna apply commercial flight policy onto GA and it's gonna be its demise.
Fully supportive of PPR - deconflicts private aircraft from scheduled services and also removes the risk to maintenance staff working on the airfield and runways.
I personally find the whole PPR thing a complete faf, I understand the rationale but as you say most airfields abroad (and some in the UK) manage perfectly well without it. Its so refreshing to not have to PPR when flying in France.
You can avoid many of the squark changes by simply not asking for a LARS ATC service. A basic service is pretty useless anyway, I only tend to ask for a Traffic service if I need it in poor visibility
Back in the 90s I flew US registered light aircraft out of Lakenheath to airports in the UK. I have to admit I was always getting yelled at because I'd do 'American Joins' when landing. Elstree hated us! But tolerated us because we'd buy their fuel! Also flying 'point to point;' IFR flights in single Pipers all over the place, and the odd flight over to France and Ireland. And of course flying at night! Great fun though!
We have Ppr in Canada but it is into,smaller private fields usually.
Nothing bonkers about the multiple ssr code changes. It means us ATCO's know exactly who, if anybody, is working which aircraft. Given that you're flying around the very congested and complex airspace of the south east of England, should you inadvertently stray somewhere you shouldn't be we know exactly who you're talking to so we can speak to them immediately should there be a conflict of traffic. If you stayed on the same code for the whole time it would take significantly longer to do so and thus increasing the risk of a conflict of traffic. I'm sure it's frustrating but it's effectively due to geography.
The main problem being that such a small airspace is divided into too many ATC units above the airport control zones. Pretty old fashioned and inefficient. The rest of Europe does it differently.
Here in Spain, we get one (personal) SSR-Code for the entire flight upon calling ATC for the first time. After that, ATC will always know how you are and your flight details at any time, just like flight following in the US. Spain is far from perfect, but ATC is actually pretty good.
We have all those things in the US, but they are rare exceptions rather than the rule. PPR is generally for private or military fields. Squawk codes sometimes change, but usually controllers pass along your code and data to the next controller. In the eastern US we have so little Class G that I’ve only done it once, but same rules (honor system with no separation service.) Overheads are almost exclusively done by military planes. In GA we don’t like anyone descending in the pattern.
No such animal as the overhead join in the US; more than that, a lot of circuit sides are determined by noise abatement considerations, and if you did an overhead join on the non-pattern side of the airport, you would get yelled at... what a lot of older pilots, particularly Navy ones, will do, is what we call a "360 overhead", where you join the extended centreline at ~1500 feet, and just above your touchdown point, break in the direction of the pattern, and fly a more or less continuous circle around the pattern to touchdown. This is particularly useful when flying aircraft with poor visibility straight ahead , as the runway will remain visible out the side of the aircraft until very short final. But most of us who didn't do military flight training join mid-downwind, usually at a 45-degree angle...
I'm happy you are warning foreign pilots about "basic service".
I was rather disappointed to find out that UK FIS "basic service" does not include traffic advisories like it does in almost every other country I've flown in. Almost collided with a glider, and thought - that's strange that they didn't call it out to me, and the glider was not sending out ADSB or FLARM. I though, perhaps the UK radar was not picking them up...
Found out after I completed my trip that "basic service" definitely matched the name.
Hence they have traffic service, besides basic service.
Odd that the glider wasn’t on flarm. We almost always have it, maybe except some vintage gliders.
@@adampoultney8737 Very possible that I didn't see the glider on my ipad due to the position of the SE2, can't be sure. This is why I like to talk to get traffic services - an extra pair of eyes to help avoid a collision. In some countries, they also help you by warning about active airspace you are about to stumble into, parachuting activity, and other very useful things. Next time I'm in the UK I'll explicitly request traffic advisories.
@@dermick under a basic service, you're supposed to get general information on traffic (like you said, paragliding activity, etc), and if it's a Radar unit, and they believe a collision might occur, specific traffic info. Some units will be more generous with the traffic info under a basic service than others, but even under a deconfliction service, the responsibility to avoid collision is ultimately the pilot's responsibility. Also, if the ATCO can't see anything on their radar, they will be unable to pass traffic info (where I work we have some blind spots below certain levels due to terrain).
The main point to learn here about Basic Service is that it can be, and often is, provided by someone who doesn’t have a radar, hence very generic traffic information, if any at all.
If you require traffic information, you ask for a Traffic Service.
Jon, how about listening squawks? That must be fairly UK unique?
So Squak codes on departure are all the same. What is a Squak code en-route related too? There seems to be many, I've no idea what they relate too. Cheers
It allows ATC to see who, if anyone, you are in contact with in case they need to let you know about conflicting traffic or going into restricted airspace.
@LuxPete1 Thanks Pete, but is there any rational behind the numbers they give out?
@@SimonAmazingClarke It depends on the ATC unit. Those that don’t have radar might have only one code but it shows others who you are in contact with. For example, in this video, Redhill doesn’t have radar but the squawk makes flights talking to them visible to the Gatwick controllers so they can quickly deal with the situation if someone has a problem and inadvertently enters the Gatwick zone.
For those ATC units with radar, the first two digits show who you are in contact with the third and fourth can be allocated by the controller to help him/her track you.
Having said that, the rules concerning allocation of squawks can vary from one country to another!
The Transponder swaps are bizarre. That's extra work for the pilot, which is pretty much always a bad idea.
Are right-hand circuits the norm in the UK? Or is it just traffic regulations at Turweston?
Left-hand circuits are considered "standard" in the UK but in my experience there are roughly as many left-hand as right-hand circuits, just depends on the aerodrome. Usually it's due to noise abatement requirements.