Why IK Multimedia ARC 4 Is BETTER Than Sonarworks For Mixing & Mastering On Speakers
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- Опубликовано: 18 сен 2024
- Why IK Multimedia ARC 4 Is BETTER Than Sonarworks / SoundId For Mixing and mastering On Speakers
IK Multimedia ARC 4 vs Sonarworks / SoundId.. Which Is Best For Mixing On Speakers??
My name is Paul Third and I am a Scottish youtuber / audio engineer / mixing engineer / audio geek. I mostly cover audio engineering related content ranging from audio plugin shootouts / plugin comparisons (acustica audio plugins, universal audio etc etc) to actual analog vs digital / gear vs plugins plugin tests via access analog and mix analog. I even include ddmf plugindoctor tutorials in my plugin reviews so you can be your very own plugin tester and experiment and understand whats actually going on under the hood.
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FYI this ISN'T a paid sponsored video. I reached out to IK myself for an ARC4 system and told them that if I liked it I'd make a video about it, but if I didn't I would send it back.
This video is entirely my own testing, research and honest opinions. Nobody at IK multimedia have been sent the video prior to upload and if you really want to blame anybody for making this video then blame Ed Thorne for harpering on about it so much and bending my ear to the point where I had to go down a rabbit hole where I lost a whole week of my life 🤓
That’s why I use electrostatic‘s from 250Hz and above, phase is completely flat, used dsp for time and phase aligning for sub,lowmid & tops using SysTune to measure, all sweet, my room is 5m wide and 8m deep, desk 2m from front wall, sit at @ 3.2 m, sound is realistic scary, some people can’t take the sound
I got the same impression with Sonaworks for headphones long ago. I could never use it, sounded phasy, like you said. It didn't just correct the curve, it also ruined the sound for me. When I got Arc 3 I was apprehensive, thinking it might be as bad. To my surprise, Arc 3 did exactly as you described. Everything sounded more foreword, balanced and clear. I couldn't believe it when I heard it. But it's just that. IK Multimedia just got this right.
The “phasey” sound is the thing I always heard with Sonarworks that drove me batty. I moved to a MiniDSP system that worked well after a LOT of work dialing it in, and then recently to a Trinnov (which I’m very happy with). I’m glad to hear the ARC offers something less destructive than Sonarworks at a still affordable price.
I use MiniDSP and like it a lot 👌🏼
Dirac does intrigue me a lot
@@PaulThird You should try it out, it’s pretty good imo. I have the MiniDSP DDRC-24 and it works really well.
I bought a miniDSP & measuring mic (haven’t tried the others), use with REWizard & am pleased 🤷♂️
@@mthomas1091 I have presets with headphone and speaker correction and can switch between them which is awesome, my room is very small but my mixes translate pretty good now 👌🏼
Thank you for this review Paul. Your opinion validated my decision to buy the ARC 4 Studio. UPS delivered it yesterday. So it was pretty cool to see your video first thing this Saturday morning. Going to start calibrating my room in a bit!😃
Wait, Sonarworks does correct for timing. There's an option to turn on listening position. I'm not sure you're right about arc doing very broad moves even on broad mode.
I use arc 4 with the hardware and like it a lot. I have a large peak at 130 and dip at around 90 and both calibration software's address these areas well, with sonarworks you can dial a slider from 0 to 100 which was always good. With arc it's broard, default or sharp which from my testing limits maximum correction amplitude (not bandwidth)
Nah you are right. The listening position option does involve some time alignment. Thanks for that, dunno how I managed to forget about the listening position feature which I've always got enabled haha
I have now edited out all remarks made about there being no speaker time alignment in stereo version 👍
As for the broad eq moves. Simply put it in bertom curve analyser and you'll see what it's doing including the phase. It's very broad especially after 200hz. Very minimal phase shifts. Quite impressive tbh
@@PaulThird oh right! ill have a look!
I love the arc system, we put an arc studio into our live venue. It's a hall about 100m across and about 50m front to back. And after doing the measurements we put the correction in, I 100% agree. It helps remove the sound of the room so you can focus more on what is coming out of the speakers. The hall has a lot of weird resonances and every part of the hall sound completely different tonaly. But with the correction we managed to even out the response, and get rid of the resonances. Mixing has been a lot more fun with the correction.
We also changed the target curve to keep the clean sound, but add the live sensibilities to that. We haven't had any issues with the box, it runs smoothly and consistently, which is always a plus.
ARC3 works a treat here for me. I just wish there was an easy way to insert it into the windows sound system as well not just ASIO (without buying the hardware box). at the moment I am using Pedalboard 2 but it's not overly stable.
Is there not an upgrade price for box and ARC4? Just thinking that if it's not too much more expensive it's a very worthwhile investment if you already use arc
@@PaulThird Yes there is - I think its 250€ instead of 300€ - which doesn't hit the sweet spot for me as I have the mic and software, just to pay 250 bucks for a box that applies a simple EQ curve seems excessive. Instead they should sell the boxes separately to the software for 150, then I would actually buy 2. (and reuse my old ALESIS monitors in the living room). If they were clever they would also upsell boxes with multiple output switch for an extra price.
I set up Arc 4 in my small mixing room with my Adams A8H connected to a Kali WS-6.2 sub. I have it set to linear mode because although 'natural' sounds great in my small room 'linear' gives me a slightly better centre image. Don't have any issues with the sub which I already had placed in the best position. 😎
I find that linear phase detracts from the solidity a little compared to natural. Feels a little recessed in comparison
That must be one if not the most positive videos on a product I've seen from you. Can't lie, I think IKM is doing a great job for the budget-range in terms of production and monitoring in general. And it makes me happy that they do. Great that you've found something that works.
PS: What only became clear very late in the video is that you use ARC Studio and not just ARC 4. There is the option to use ARC 4 without the box. With some of the IKM speakers ARC 4 is integrated and if you don't have IKM speakers you can use it as a plugin in your DAW. However, obviously, having the box (or Speakers with the integrated ARC 4) is better than using just the plugin in many ways.
Yeah I use both as I can only have one set of speakers connected to the box so I have to use daw instance for the rest
Yo, Paul, Tim P is working on the Tubetech CL1b. Love to see your input on it; when it's released:)
I've got it. Just in the testing phase
@@PaulThird I'm jealous hahaha...instant buy:)
G.A.S.... saw headline of the video and bought and installed ARC 4. I have Sonarworks. Now I will watch the video and learn why I switched :D
Lol
Hi Paul, great video. I'm torn between Arc 4 and Sonarworks as I actually thought Arc 4 did (try to) correct Nulls and there was no way of reducing it other than the edit page eq whereas in Sonarworks you can set it to 0dB boost in the limits control page and also there is mix option where can reduce the overall correction? If, as you say Arc 4 doesn't attempt to correct nulls then why does it trim the output to the same level as the big nulls? If it wasn't boosting why would it trim the output? Cheers mate, love your work
From the manual: The system allows the Trim control to detect the maximum boost level in the correction filter. (not in anyway trying to be a dick or call you out , just thought I'd check it out) x
@molem348 all of it's correction in natural mode with broad filter (which is it's default setting) doesn't do the sonarworks thing where it automatically mirror corrects every amplitude anomaly. You can choose steep and it'll basically do the sonarworks mirror correct.
You can also edit the correction in arc via it's edit page and if you want a narrower range then you simply use 3 points. Left and right points being the width and the center point acting as the +/- gain.
From my research the trim control has a detection function which allows it to trim the output of each speaker so they both output the same level after correction.
The system can detect the maximum boost level of the filter but only to calculate the correct volume of each speaker. It doesn't affect the actual correction filters as it's post correction
It does boost and cut but I meant that it doesn't correct a deep null like the mirror correct method in sonarworks. It's correction is based primarily on improving/maintaining phase coherence, not fully correcting a null with opposite amplitude. The whole systems focus (default) is mitigating the impact of the room without negatively affecting the phase coherence
Stick arc correction through bertom curve analyser and you'll see exactly what it's doing. Very minimal gradual phase shifts for the most part, especially past 200hz
@@PaulThird Cool, went back and did an AB and you're spot on with the "everything sounds more up-front". Going to give Ark a go for a while and see how things translate. Thanks man.
The difference in the calibration process is enough to justify ARC 4 for me, the sonarworks calibration feels like torture everytime lol
Try doing the 50 minute multi-channel measurement haha 😅😅
So would you prefer the ARC Studio external Box including another conversion or just using the software alone in ARC 4?
I prefer the box as it just makes life a lot easier. Plug and play. If there was a standalone desktop feature for ARC then I'd reconsider but with it being DAW only I massively prefer the box so I always have a constant reference
@PaulThird seems like you are okay and happy with the sound and conversation quality then? Even considering the quality of your topping dac. I for myself have the RME ADI 2/4 Pro Special Edition.
System wide to have the correct happening digitally on the computer itself would make more sense right!? Anyway glad you're happy.
I have Amphion One 15s and really happy with them since 5 years and a new room now. I consider the Kali WS 6.2 Sub and have heard and been told over the years from really great engineers all over the world that having 2 subs in stereo and makes a big difference when used correctly.
How is your experience with that? Have you considered that? I know that even the small Kali sub makes quite some rumble especially for the size but I only want my 80-85 db but with more consistency and coherence especially regarding potential room modes. What do you think Paul?
Depends on your room. Stereo subs mean more headroom for the subs which means you can crank the system with less THD but you may end up creating room issues instead of solving them. That's why many say you have to use them correctly
@PaulThird for what I have been told, researched and experienced 2 subs positioned correctly give a better chance to fix room modes. Even in outdoor PA systems stereo subs are give a recognizably more beautiful sound. Was just wondering if you have experienced it
Nah its nothing beautiful. It's the same sub sound just with more headroom. Stereo subs can cause more issues if both aren't correctly time aligned with the L+R speakers as well as eachother.
If not positioned correctly it can actually cause destructive interference ie nulls. It could actually cause more issues that it solves. Tbh it's a bit of a ballache as you need to get them both interacting with the room in a way that actually lessens room interference.
If you have sub issues in your room then a stereo sub setup can indeed improve the issues and manage room modes more effectively but you need to understand that by adding a second sub you can have the opposite affect as you have more bass reflections to cater for
It all depends on your room and whether it can work well with 2 subs working together. Sub frequencies are mono so you shouldn't have any localisation improvements. It's genuinely more for managing distortion in big rooms that require high speaker outputs to achieve a certain SPL. Or for rooms that have modal issues in the lows. The latter is more of a last ditch attempt as it's not guaranteed to make the room measure any better
If you have a small room with a decent sized sub with ample headroom in a space that measures well in the lows then you don't need a stereo sub in my opinion
I've stopped using Sonarworks altogether 4 years ago and just learned my room and my speakers. The mixes are coming out really great with no translation issues whatsoever. From my experience any additional eq on the speakers is going to introduce unwanted coloration which is masking some details in yor audio that's why I avoid using any room correction software or hardware. When mixing with Sonarworks my mixes were coming out really boomy in the low end and had a weird balance around 300-600Hz which sounded awful everywhere else outside the studio. I don't recommend relying on that room correction stuff while mixing - it leads to bad mixing decisions most of the time. All people I know that are using Sonarworks are putting out very mediocre mixes with some weird problems in different frequency ranges. Of course you can say it's their fault not the product but from my experience people mixing without any room correction are doing way better job with their mixes.
This is what I have always thought with the EQ compensation... I've always had in mind to either turn off or use a very minor wet amount of it and then only really care about time alignment.
You can not imitate acoustics so EQ is a pile.
If you have problems then you're only adding to the problem by adding more of that frequency.
You can not stop resonance and reverbs of the room by taking out reverb of the signal... it doesn't make sense.
I've only thought about it for time aliment of the listening position and that's the only thing you can do before the speaker.
The arc seems a lot better... is their built in processing doing more than the separate arc?
Because most people prefer the correction off on the MTM MKII videos... people who are using Trinnov.
Trinnov does a lot more which can make sense but not 100% on that.
Really... not enough repeated focus when teaching anything on the studio is acoustics first is you safety first for your business
Why didn't you use this to adjust the Focal Shape speakers you liked so much but had to return?
Because I mixed on the shapes with ARC4
@@PaulThird oh I see. So even despite that still didn't work. Bummer.
It's just the way the speaker makes me mix. That's all.
experienced kind of the same ... i really would like to see ARC4 for Atmos.. ;)
I'm pitching very hard cause if that comes out then that's what I'm using. I've even told them to reach out to audient so I can export ARC 4 directly onto the ORIA dsp. If I can make it happen then I'll make it happen! 🤣
I've been thinking of Arc 4 as I too think it sounds like something's missing in Sonarworks. I already use the RTA on DBX drive racks and am wondering if there'll be that much difference between that and Arc 4 (the RTA only measures L & R).
Great video, Paul! You have convinced me to try an ARC and compare to my current Sonarworks setup.
Can ARC time align my sub to my speakers? Josh Estock from Focal came to my place and aligned my sub with SMAART, but if I ever had to to it again I would be lost. What do you use for that? A how to video would be great! 😃
I think Ed may have told me one time ARC cannot align my sub.
Yeah it doesn't do that as it only has 2 outputs. I do it with sonarworks multi-channel as it time aligns the LFE (sub) to the rest of the speakers.
However if you have oria then you can delay sub manually if you know how to calculate the delay time
Evey time someone talks about room correction, what I wonder the most is how this compares to the built-in capabilities of the speakers like Neumann KH 80 DSP and KH 120 II.
Ed Thorne discussed neumann MA1 vs Sonarworks, trinnov and arc
That sounds similar to what genelec does and doesn't do with GLM. Only fixes what it can and they mostly leave the top end reflections alone.
I really want to try those 3 way genelecs
I think you are weighting more "how it sounds" with ARC than which one gives you a better translation.... and that is ok.. I prefer the sounds of ARC too.....but this time seems your opinion more personal than scientific or technical ...sorry Gordis, but nulls can be greatly improved with EQ, check that with REW after corrective curve
How can you improve a null with eq when it's full phase cancellation? You can in theory maybe slightly mitigate for a smaller null that has part cancellation but if you've got a 10-12db null that's classed as full cancellation. That frequency effectively doesn't exist at the listening position as the direct and reflected waves have met eachother with opposite polarity before reaching your ears.
By boosting that area you are normally making the issue worse in the room. It can't fix the null as you need physics in order to change the path of the reflections or obsorb them enough to block their eventual path
Nulls are purely physics
THERE ARE ONLY TWO SYSTEMS THAT REALLY WORK, TRINNOV AND GENELEC GLM, THE REST ARE TOYS, ALTHOUGH BETWEEN SONARWORKS AND ARC I PREFER ARC
🤓🤓🤓
Remember to check out my mixing and mastering podcast with Ed Thorne
9:14 what about if you use HEADPHONES with Sonarworks? Can you then fix nulls?
im no expert but headphones dont produce nulls ....sound goes directly in youre ear...
@@kapokparski4573 right. So then, which is better? 🤷🏽♂️ and where does Slate Digital fall in this?
Nulls are created mostly by direct sound waves meeting reflections of the same frequency with opposite polarity. It's phase cancellation caused by room reflections.
There are no reflections in headphones so they aren't nulls in headphones, it's due to headphone design
So yes you can eq a dip in frequency response but I dont advise sonarworks for headphones. Always Eq to harman
@@PaulThird exactly. So I’m asking how do they rank if you take nulls completely out of the process, ie, you mix in headphones? Because a lot of this came to know sonarworks and Slate VSX not to aid in room treatment, but INSTEAD of it. I checked. To MODERATELY fix my less than optimal studio space (random bedroom) would cost $11k, short of structural changes to the room (parallel walls, ceiling too low, etc) so I got SW4 with the custom Senn HD600’s direct from Sonarworks. It was like $600, and legit my best option.
IT STILL SOUNDED PAPERY!
Also, I’m no pro. I’m a longtime self-taught audio hobbyist lawyer whose ADHD and/or autism left me with a strong “sound sensitivity”, so the little things really go a long way toward annoying tf out of me more than the average gear slutz era sound nerd.
(Also why I ask how does Slate Digital VSX stack up to Sonarworks headphone version and IK if THAT has a headphone version, because I don’t KNOW them as ARC software, only headphone room emulations.)
ARC doesn't do headphones. I've not tried VSX but heard a lot of good things in regards to translation.
If you ask be about headphone eq correction. Then always Eq to harman as sonarworks curve isn't ideal for mixing at all.
I made a whole video about it ages ago
Sometimes I have a feeling that YT auto generates content to match my interest using AI 😂
Is there any noticeable latency? Is it suitable for tracking, too?
There's no latency with the box. I used the plugin as well but didn't try recording with it so couldnt say
@@PaulThird That's good to hear. What about the multiple AD/DA stages? Is there any disadvantage? For example interface DA->Arc AD/DSP/DA->monitor AD/DSP/DA->amp
I was concerned as my DAC is arguably one of the best measuring out there but thankfully the conversion in the box is good so I prefer the sound through the box with the correction compared to no correction at all
@@PaulThird That's what I wanted to hear, I will probably buy one soon 😎
Is it better than Trinnov?
Depends on the speaker and the version of trinnov. Ed prefers ARC over trinnov nova for his amphion but prefers trinnov for his PSI. The technology is more advanced in trinnov so i would say that it should better ARC on paper.
I've not had it in my studio so I can only give you Ed's opinion but suppose I can also add audio animals and PDP as a list of studios I know that swear by trinnov but they use more expensive systems.
On average you'd probably have to summise that trinnov will better ARC in many ways
@@PaulThirdRespect! You give a detailed answer to this simple question of one sentence.
I heard IK was sending out gear to youtube influencers, alongside nfr licenses for TRACKS. Are you shilling?
Nope. Not been paid to make the video. Asked a contact from IK to send me the system and if I liked it I'd consider a video and if not I'd send it back. Simple
And I don't have T-racks, nor was I asked if I wanted it
@@PaulThird Honestly this is the usual speil you hear from all RUclipsrs that get free gear, you even said yourself in multiple videos that you are very lucky because you recieve this gear. Maybe you are not paid by companies but free gear is infact somewhat of a payment. I am not hating and have no issues with that but i wish RUclipsrs would be more honest with the people that support and put them in position they are.
It's all in the pinned comment... But I stopped giving a fuck about people whinging online about me getting free shit. I intentionally turn away thousands of pounds of every year for companies wanting me to do paid videos on this channel and the fact that there are people expecting me to take out credit to review stuff is just a pisstake. I review what I want, I make the content I want, and I get a lot of free shit that I want. Never hid that.
I chose to contact IK multimedia.. Actually why am I even justifying myself to randoms online
Either watch or dont. If you think I'm shilling my opinion then you are wrong. Just block all future content and review shit yourself ✌️
@@PaulThird I am glad you said that and like i said i am not hating but mearly pointing something out. I was saying RUclipsrs in general, and btw the way, i never said you should take credit out or even pay for these things because i also think you should be paid for your time, and if that is in fact with gear then so be it. Its the same rubbish i hear all the time from RUclipsrs saying put your opinion in the comments because i want to read them knowing quite well they won't reply to any of them and just do it to gauge traction to their channel, its the game, and i get it but it is hard to hear over and over again. BTW you are one of the very few that actually answer your followers so respect were respect is due. You know yourself that usual speil "i am giving just my opinion and have not been paid" is common amongst RUclipsrs and somewhat disingenuous, especially considering newbies buy these products based on RUclipsrs opinions. I would rather hear RUclipsrs say i have recieved the product for free so take this for what it is at face value. I really like your content and as i said i am not hating but sometimes get tired of hearing the same old speil on and on. Sorry if i came across like i was attacking you, it was actually RUclipsrs in general.
@jadedsean I'm used to being attacked on youtube so I just assume it's somebody having a go but respect for clarifying 🙏
You may well be right but I've always found IK Multimedia software to be flaky at best so shall not be risking it. Shame.
No issues at my end. Especially with the box. Cause you just store the calibration on the box and that's you good to go.
I've been using ARC since v3 and I love it. Bear in mind that the people working on ARC are likely not the same people working on their general plugins (most likely the speaker division). I have their proprietary MEMS mic from buying their speakers, so I can't speak for it with other measurement mics.
@@joechapman8208 Glad you're having a good time with it and, as I said, I'm sure it's great but I've been put off IK Multimedia.
I'm sure there are different people working on the core product but that doesn't mean there won't be some cross use of people.
Twice burned thrice shy....for now at least but thanks!
Wait, Sonarworks does correct for timing. There's an option to turn on listening position. I'm not sure you're right about arc doing very broad moves even on broad mode.
I use arc 4 with the hardware and like it a lot. I have a large peak at 130 and dip at around 90 and both calibration software's address these areas well, with sonarworks you can dial a slider from 0 to 100 which was always good. With arc it's broard, default or sharp which from my testing limits maximum correction amplitude (not bandwidth)