Yes I have been hoping for a fix but doesn't seem like it is going to happen anytime soon. Noticed it very early on but keep getting told correct as is which disappointing. It is very difficult to fly the F-16 in DCS effectively now so I just avoid it.
The amount of migs that snuck up on me until I got used to monitoring the outer ring is insane. Also the HMD RWR is now useless unless they are engaging you with fox 1
Really interesting find. Appreciate the in-depth testing! Now I'm curious if the other jets are actually functioning as advertised, haha. As another commenter said, strange implementation but at least we understand what's going on at the moment.
I have been wanting to do with for a bit but never got around to it. I would have never thought something would go inner ring even though they are 63 miles out.
During my last SEAD scenario I found myself being kinda confused by the RWR compared to what the HAD was telling me. I guess this explains it. I was expecting it to be based on signal strength like it always was. Didn't know they changed it.
I always thought this is how it works, so yes if for some reason a plane locked you outside its missile engagement range the RWR would show it in the middle threat ring, even though the bandit couldn’t engage you. Likewise, if I had bandit was a mile behind me in search, they’d be in the outer ring. Don’t know if this is how it really works but I always understood RWRs had no range estimating capability.
It is an indirect way of determining relative distance. They can detect strength and radar type. That information can be used to determine lethality thus placing on the appropriate ring.
@@AviationPlus But isn't it pretty impossible to know what sticks a bandit has? Sure, some you can know, like an older MiG-21bis probably isn't hurling 77-Ms at you. But you can't always just declare "well, he's locking me, but he's no threat." That's a good way to get a one-way ticket to Ejectsville. As well, I've always felt that getting locked, at any distance, shows intent. You may encounter, say, an SU-27... is he after you or is he ground-pounding? If he's locking you at some great distance, he's probably looking to feed you one of his missiles soon. But if he seems to be ignoring you, then he's probably not a threat and you can act accordingly (ignore him if you're on an attack mission, or engage if you're on CAP). In any case, estimating range by the signal strength is just that: an estimate. I would imagine that in practice different planes with the same radar might have different emission strengths, depending on maintenance, prior damage, how old the unit is, etc. You may also be in the lock cone of the bandit's radar, which would surely mean you're not getting the full power of his radar (your wingie is, though)... so that could throw the distance estimate off. Just my $0.02.
Thanks for the video! Should get a lot more attention and pressure from the community on ED, imo. Still hurts what ED is doing here with the F-16 RWR :/
This whole time I thought this was normal(assuming real pilots were using classified tactics to win battles). Many times I ran into situations when a bandit is tracking (20- 30 NM away) me and an air defense is tracking me, but RWR has SA-10 as priority from 50 NM away (happens a lot in Growling Sidewinder’s mp server).
Hey bud, you still do DCS sometimes? I've been and still am flying BMS for over 5 years now consistently, while the DCS F-16 still feels so broken. I can't for the life of me figure out why the INS doesn't align properly and Data-Link simply refuses to work in DCS. BMS start-up has so much more depth but it's consistent and works, I'm fairly sure ED broke something on one of their last hotfix updates. Do you plan on doing a new DCS vs BMS Start-up differences video soon?
I play DCS sometimes but I have stopped doing online missions because with this RWR I can't stand it. Now I only make videos and point out things that the community should know about. The next BMS update I plan on doing another one because BMS is getting Link 16.
It looks like this might have been reversed today, there's a line in the patch notes stating "Fixed: RWR displays radars in "Track" mode in the inner "Missile Launch" ring." Not had the chance to test it yet however.
I saw this too. It seems like an aspect was fixed to match the manual. I noticed there were only 2 rings with search being the outer and Lock/Launch was on the inner ring. Now there are 3 being Search, Lock and Launch.
@@AviationPlus I've just done some tests against an F-15, the symbol stays in the outer circle until the Eagle locked me, even at sub 5 NMi, so it's still fucked unfortunately.
You dont want to clutter the inner rings with proximity aircraft. It would be too hard to distinguish threats when they pop up. I think its safe to assume the threat distance system was phased out in favor of giving the pilot much more raw information. I think its safe to assume ED has a source for the modelled rwr that warrants the change.
I would like to believe so but I very much doubt it though. Although common reasoning might suggest that the RWR might clutter that easily, I tend to disagree due to past experience on Falcon BMS even during high complexity missions with dozens of fighters for each side, and due to a few other reasons: - The RWR only shows the 16 strongest signals if I recall correctly. - Generally, not every enemy aircraft would push at the same time so they'd all appear at your inner ring. - In the exceptional situation your RWR inner ring is cluttered, what would the issue be? You know there are multiple aircraft in close and you should probably abort ASAP, you are aware of your situation and it's near FUBAR. - In a Red Wall / Gorilla situation, you would probably sort targets by the FCR, maybe would be allowed to Maddog if not using TWS to shoot multiple AMRAAMs, and would abort while AWACS and other BARCAP flights deal with that. - There's a Declutter button (that actually works properly in BMS as opposed to DCS), showing you only the most important signal in the correct position (the one spiking you - they wouldn't be dumb to be all spiking you anyway). So really, I don't see how changing the RWR to how it is now would help anything. It would rather hinder you and get you killed easier for lack of SA.
I have never had an issue with crowded inner ring. I have had it in the outer ring but in BMS the Target Separation button actually works so I just use that when needed.
Lol, I thought it always was like that. The thing is: rwr are programmable and every user has modified it as he like, so there is no truly one way how it must be. As i heard from users it is how it implemented now. It was distance for f14 times, but with mainstream EW tech where every emmiter tries vary its power in a smart way its become useless.
It was not like this before. Upon release it worked in reference to signal strength and type of radar to determine the lethality and ring location. Now it is based on the radar mode regardless of strength.
Hornet, Apache and Chinook RWRs all work the same way too. Seems like ED is doing this to all newer modules. I despise this implementation, nearly fuckin' useless.
Great catch. Thank you for this.
Yes I have been hoping for a fix but doesn't seem like it is going to happen anytime soon. Noticed it very early on but keep getting told correct as is which disappointing. It is very difficult to fly the F-16 in DCS effectively now so I just avoid it.
The ED F/A-18s Rwr works the same like the ED F-16?
@@tamasratkai1130 No. It works how the F-16 used to but is reversed to that the outer ring is more of a threat.
@@AviationPlus Thanks. As i understand, themanual didn't specify signal strength only lethality. Thanks for clarifying.
@@tamasratkai1130 Yes, but even then this is NOT a good representation of lethality.
So they changed it to this arcade modeling FROM the realistic it previously had?
The amount of migs that snuck up on me until I got used to monitoring the outer ring is insane. Also the HMD RWR is now useless unless they are engaging you with fox 1
Thx for the video. Strange decision by ED, but at least I understand whats going on now! :D
WTF!!
Thank you for making this!
I didnt know this.
You are welcome. ED did not tell anyone of the change.
Really interesting find. Appreciate the in-depth testing! Now I'm curious if the other jets are actually functioning as advertised, haha. As another commenter said, strange implementation but at least we understand what's going on at the moment.
I have been wanting to do with for a bit but never got around to it. I would have never thought something would go inner ring even though they are 63 miles out.
During my last SEAD scenario I found myself being kinda confused by the RWR compared to what the HAD was telling me. I guess this explains it. I was expecting it to be based on signal strength like it always was. Didn't know they changed it.
Very useful. Thanks!
I always thought this is how it works, so yes if for some reason a plane locked you outside its missile engagement range the RWR would show it in the middle threat ring, even though the bandit couldn’t engage you. Likewise, if I had bandit was a mile behind me in search, they’d be in the outer ring. Don’t know if this is how it really works but I always understood RWRs had no range estimating capability.
It is an indirect way of determining relative distance. They can detect strength and radar type. That information can be used to determine lethality thus placing on the appropriate ring.
@@AviationPlus But isn't it pretty impossible to know what sticks a bandit has? Sure, some you can know, like an older MiG-21bis probably isn't hurling 77-Ms at you. But you can't always just declare "well, he's locking me, but he's no threat." That's a good way to get a one-way ticket to Ejectsville. As well, I've always felt that getting locked, at any distance, shows intent. You may encounter, say, an SU-27... is he after you or is he ground-pounding? If he's locking you at some great distance, he's probably looking to feed you one of his missiles soon. But if he seems to be ignoring you, then he's probably not a threat and you can act accordingly (ignore him if you're on an attack mission, or engage if you're on CAP). In any case, estimating range by the signal strength is just that: an estimate. I would imagine that in practice different planes with the same radar might have different emission strengths, depending on maintenance, prior damage, how old the unit is, etc.
You may also be in the lock cone of the bandit's radar, which would surely mean you're not getting the full power of his radar (your wingie is, though)... so that could throw the distance estimate off.
Just my $0.02.
Wow had no idea about this, thats crazy! ED needs to fix that if it indeed is innaccurate
Ya not many really noticed it because it was never announced by ED with a video or article of some sort which is strange.
Thanks for the video! Should get a lot more attention and pressure from the community on ED, imo.
Still hurts what ED is doing here with the F-16 RWR :/
I hope so but as of recently seems like they may have other problems on their hands.
What a strange decision by ED, I don't know of any RWR that works like this??
Wrong SA is worse than No SA.
Also have you noticed how bad the gun pipper jumps in A-A guns mode on a locked target, like a slow refresh rate?
I do not play enough to notice that. I rarely play DCS.
This whole time I thought this was normal(assuming real pilots were using classified tactics to win battles). Many times I ran into situations when a bandit is tracking (20- 30 NM away) me and an air defense is tracking me, but RWR has SA-10 as priority from 50 NM away (happens a lot in Growling Sidewinder’s mp server).
I think to be effective and have best SA, we have to use the RWR, Radar and HSD in tandem for a complete picture.
True but I don't have time for the RWR to be feeding me wrong information.
Hey bud, you still do DCS sometimes?
I've been and still am flying BMS for over 5 years now consistently, while the DCS F-16 still feels so broken.
I can't for the life of me figure out why the INS doesn't align properly and Data-Link simply refuses to work in DCS.
BMS start-up has so much more depth but it's consistent and works, I'm fairly sure ED broke something on one of their last hotfix updates.
Do you plan on doing a new DCS vs BMS Start-up differences video soon?
I play DCS sometimes but I have stopped doing online missions because with this RWR I can't stand it. Now I only make videos and point out things that the community should know about.
The next BMS update I plan on doing another one because BMS is getting Link 16.
It looks like this might have been reversed today, there's a line in the patch notes stating "Fixed: RWR displays radars in "Track" mode in the inner "Missile Launch" ring."
Not had the chance to test it yet however.
I saw this too. It seems like an aspect was fixed to match the manual. I noticed there were only 2 rings with search being the outer and Lock/Launch was on the inner ring. Now there are 3 being Search, Lock and Launch.
@@AviationPlus I've just done some tests against an F-15, the symbol stays in the outer circle until the Eagle locked me, even at sub 5 NMi, so it's still fucked unfortunately.
@@tinglydingle Ya seems to be still broken...but works as stated in the DCS manual. But to me it is still unusable.
You dont want to clutter the inner rings with proximity aircraft. It would be too hard to distinguish threats when they pop up. I think its safe to assume the threat distance system was phased out in favor of giving the pilot much more raw information. I think its safe to assume ED has a source for the modelled rwr that warrants the change.
I would like to believe so but I very much doubt it though.
Although common reasoning might suggest that the RWR might clutter that easily, I tend to disagree due to past experience on Falcon BMS even during high complexity missions with dozens of fighters for each side, and due to a few other reasons:
- The RWR only shows the 16 strongest signals if I recall correctly.
- Generally, not every enemy aircraft would push at the same time so they'd all appear at your inner ring.
- In the exceptional situation your RWR inner ring is cluttered, what would the issue be? You know there are multiple aircraft in close and you should probably abort ASAP, you are aware of your situation and it's near FUBAR.
- In a Red Wall / Gorilla situation, you would probably sort targets by the FCR, maybe would be allowed to Maddog if not using TWS to shoot multiple AMRAAMs, and would abort while AWACS and other BARCAP flights deal with that.
- There's a Declutter button (that actually works properly in BMS as opposed to DCS), showing you only the most important signal in the correct position (the one spiking you - they wouldn't be dumb to be all spiking you anyway).
So really, I don't see how changing the RWR to how it is now would help anything. It would rather hinder you and get you killed easier for lack of SA.
I have never had an issue with crowded inner ring. I have had it in the outer ring but in BMS the Target Separation button actually works so I just use that when needed.
@@AviationPlus Exactly. If there was a reason for DCS changing how the RWR behaves, surely it wasn't due to the possibility of a crowded inner ring.
It really is not safe to assume that at all.
Lol, I thought it always was like that. The thing is: rwr are programmable and every user has modified it as he like, so there is no truly one way how it must be. As i heard from users it is how it implemented now. It was distance for f14 times, but with mainstream EW tech where every emmiter tries vary its power in a smart way its become useless.
It was not like this before. Upon release it worked in reference to signal strength and type of radar to determine the lethality and ring location. Now it is based on the radar mode regardless of strength.
Hornet, Apache and Chinook RWRs all work the same way too. Seems like ED is doing this to all newer modules. I despise this implementation, nearly fuckin' useless.
One of the worlds many mysteries.
W.I.P. lol fix coming in two weeks
More like corRecT aS is.