The Destiny 2 Developers Most Hated Class
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- Опубликовано: 25 июн 2024
- 1%. 1% of every player in the top teams in the world were titans. 1 freaking %. that is a unprecedentedly low number. This goes far beyond hunters being too good. This goes beyond Titans being Niche, if that were true they would have shared the slice with warlocks, no, This is about Titans being bad. The way top teams see it there is virtually no need for a titan anymore. Titans are obsolete. And I do not believe bungie’s current trajectory to fix prismatic would be the only needed fix. Again, if JUST prismatic titans were bad then surely other titan classes would have been represented. Right? No, I think this is more an issue of titans have a different problem other than sheer power.
The Build used this video: mobalytics.gg/destiny-2/profi...
The Destiny 2 Titan Problem: Identity Crisis & Class Balance Analysis
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Игры
I am hoping to start a larger discussion in the community rather than what I have seen of "Prismatic titan bad". Sharing this with your titan friends and relaying their thoughts would be appreciated. I will try to answer counter-points and such in the comments too.
The build used in this video: mobalytics.gg/destiny-2/profile/b4812149-db6e-4fe9-9d87-67ea36d84854/builds/3ed4f22d-aafb-4a74-9b72-717ef154394d
Wow... I'll be honest, this is pretty damn eye opening. I've been playing Titan since D1 and I've always wondered why whenever I do any activities, I always see Warlocks or Hunters in pretty much anything. I always knew they were a lot better in stuff but... It never made much sense until it was all just laid out.
Man.... This is really disheartening to hear. I'll still play Titan, I'm a Titan main to the end and I doubt I'll ever change. But... This is still kinda depressing to see.
I'm glad someone is talking about this. As a titan main won't lie I jumped ship to hunters. The build options are crazy over there. Whoever put together titans prismatic kit should be fired. We can't use sol invictus, no overshields for our barricades, and as a final slap in the face they gave us hammer of sol instead of burning maul so we cant use pyrogale gauntlets lmao like wtf man. Hunters now are easily the winners and even warlocks can have 3 different buddies up at a single time and have great synergy with the raid exotic and with microcosm. Titans are literally just clinging to consecration slam and drengr lash. Titans we down boys
I only keep a Titan and Warlock profile just to mess around on since I'm a Hunter main. I feel like a big part of the problem is that the 3 classes are sort of broken up into standard RPG styles. Hunter = DPS, Titan = Tank, Warlock = Utility/Support. Hunters get toned down when they get TOO far ahead, but they still get to remain the DPS class, and Warlocks always have a use. Titans never really get a chance to shine as being a real 'tank'.
They don't have a lot to just make them into an unkillable threat, they can't pull aggro, and the bubble/shield are good but they don't offer the same value. Personally, I think the Ward would have been better on Warlocks and Well would have been better on Titans. Ward offers protection and buffs but also boxes you in. The Well keeps you alive and helps keep DPS rolling, which feels more in line with the Titan identity.
I appreciate the conversation. Ive been a solo titan since d1 taken king, and ive never been an excellent player, so titans getting the shaft hurts me as a person so much more than it should. The abilities are supposed to carry you in the game but I cant do anything, no matter how hard i push myself. Legendary lightfall had me so angry i punched myself in the face
I think that Bungie could take more examples from other MMOs and make Titan work more as a tank class. Honestly, I want it to apply to all classes, really. Have Warlocks be the debuffing and healing supports, Hunters be the absolute rawest of damaging glass cannons, and have Titans be the tankiest of bois, able to control the ads and bosses' aggression to them and be able to live through it. That's just my wacky idea though, and it's probably more of a Destiny 3 design change for all the classes.
When there was the prismatic dev insights they described the hunter and warlock in great detail but when it came to titan they basically said “you can throw a grenade to jolt enemies and melee”
Couldn't even name any of the abilities used.
lmao i noticed that too, i remember hearing that for the first time and thinking "wow they arent doing a good job of selling prismatic titan right now"
As prismatic is basically light&Dark abilities with assorted fragments
Popping prismatic Gives a unique grenade of L&D and uptick in recharging rate…
Other than the ‘nade, I don’t see much difference between the three.
@RurouniHiro the point went right over your head.
What is being said is during the bungie vid, multiple devs were seen excitedly talking about Warlock and Hunter and saying THE NAMES of fragments, aspects, melee, etc. Then titan was "use your grenade and strand melee." It's so phoned in and shows how little care and thought is put into Titans as a whole
@@RurouniHirofunctionality. Prismatic warlock with song of flame and the speakers mask is a support build, with song of flame uplifting warlock damage a little. Still waiting for damage comparison between song of flame and strand super but right now song of flame bullies bosses, staggering them near infinitely.
Prismatic hunter is a dps cannon that can actually live to damage phase while being placed on ad clear relatively easily, since the assassins cowl arc hunter kit is built into prismatic hunter.
Prismatic titan….void axes….the absolute worst prismatic grenade of the three (in terms of damage Hunter grenade is the best, in terms of ad clear warlock grenade is the best, titan prismatic nade is the only one I’ve had to immediately follow up with more abilities or bullets to secure the kill on shielded red bars.) prismatic Titan has got almost nothing going for it beyond supreme ad clear with the three melee charges for consecration, mediocre dps despite having access to what is likely the best for dps super for titans (throwing axes by default (no exotic focused on super), I know pyrogales are stronger but they didn’t give you burning maul for prismatic titan which is bull because they gave you marksman Goldie for hunter) survivability is almost shot to hell on prismatic titan because the kit seems to encourage the strand Titan rush in and punch play style and yet gives you no damage resistance but grants overshield and health regen on melee kill, so it comes out more like your playing arc hunter, on a titan, without that much dps or utility to support teammates. Over all this video sums up the issue with Titan currently.
As a Warlock main who dabbles in Titan: if you ask me, Prismatic Titan should've focus on making the Titan unkillable Bastion, Juggernaut, Sol Invictus, Into the Fray (or Banner of War), Tectonic Harvest. The Titan Prismatic should've been all about stacking these buffs in disgusting ways and I think Prismatic Titan needs a fundamental rework from the ground up.
I suggested to add banner of war to prismatic and guess what I got a few hate comments from braindead hunters and my post got removed a few hours later
@@stevedeniz1well tbh a giant spear is much more suitable to titan rather than hunter. Especially when u need not only strength but also technique.
@@XdestroyverI wanted stasis titan to get a huge ice spear that they can chuck at enemies that can impale a target and freeze everything around it and then do drastically higher shatter damage to the impaled target. Maybe even have it do more damage if the stasis titan melees the lance before it shatters naturally.
As a squishy hunter, I agree 159,000%! Bungie must have forgot that this is an MMOFPS, not just an FPS.
Yup. That’s something I wish I emphasized better in the vid
I think the most frustrating part for me is the lack of Titan's base identity. When the classes were constructed, they had pretty basic identites. You had Hunter, who was the scouts, the assassins, and the outlaws. You had Warlock, which was the spellslingers. The wizards of the setting. Then you had Titans, which were the unbreakable wall. The soldier who holds the shield against waves crashing against humanity. I wish Titans were allowed to be what they were always pitched as. Tanks. Super Soldiers. Instead of being pigeon-holed into just punching. There was 1 subclass in D1 that focused on punching and all of a sudden it became the classes entire thing.
As a warlock I wonder what Titan would be like if it had the thematic diversity warlocks had. While we had White Mage, Black Mage, Engineer with turrets, and Minion master.
For titans however, Striker Behemoth and Berserker all pretty much have the same theme of "unkillable brawler" Void is the only one that plays into them being "The Wall" and While I think Sunbreaker was supposed to be the Holy Paladin class, It falls apart into just being Unkillable Brawler but with a hammer this time. And it bit bungie in the ass when trying to make prismatic not entirely about being an unkillable brawler, because well, there wasn't a whole lot of options there. I definitely see what I think Bungie's intent with prismatic titan was though. A weapons master. Void axes, Diamond Lances, Tangles, these all work with the theme of providing the team with weapons, but it just wasn't enough really.
I've said for years and years that the best part of playing Titan was being both the Unstoppable Force AND the Immovable Object. I haven't had that feeling playing Titan since before Witch Queen.
The way I see it, the Titan core identity boils down to 3 things:
1. Momentum
2. Survivability
3. Area-of-effect
Titans are not a "sit in place behind cover" class, despite having barricade. Titans should be able to run in, overwhelm a group of enemies with a display of explosive power and AoE, then fluidly carry that momentum to the next fight, and the next, and the next. They should be nigh-unstoppable killing machines that are difficult to stop, and harder to kill. Playing a Titan should be an experience where as long as you maintain your MOMENTUM, you should feel unstoppable and unkillable. A Titan's barricade should be a tool for you and your allies to recover whenever your momentum is broken, so you can have a moment of safety to build it back up again.
Simultaneously, Titans should be able to lock down an area and make it completely theirs. Uninvited guests should feel very cautious when entering a Titan's space. Titans are the wall against which the darkness BREAKS, not the sand castle that disintegrates at the first sign of opposition.
Titans ought to be the fortress, the Immovable Object that anchors their allies together and creates a bastion of safety for their team. Titans ought to be the Unstoppable Force, the armored tank that pushes inevitably forward and blows through their enemies' defenses to knock them down, no matter how hard the enemy tries to stop it.
Warlocks are the Storm, the Tsunami, the Supernova, the Elder Gods, and the inevitability of entropy. Fighting them should make you feel small and powerless before a destructive phenomenon beyond your comprehension or ability to control. You can't fight them. Nothing you do will have any effect. Fighting a Warlock should feel like shooting a gun at a thundercloud or swinging a sword at the wind. Meaningless.
Hunters are, well, Hunters. You can try and fight them all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that they are the Hunters and you are their prey. You can try to run away from them, but doing so would mean falling right into their trap. You can try and fight them head-on but they know exactly how you fight and will create and exploit weaknesses that you didn't even know were there. They're faster and more agile than you, smarter than you, and deadlier than you. You exist at their mercy. Hunters can take down any foe, because they know exactly where to hit to make it REALLY count, and have the firepower to back it up. Fighting a Hunter should feel like being backed into a corner with nowhere to run or hide, and every time you try to move or lash out, you only tangle yourself further into their trap and cut yourself on their thorns. Despite knowing you're being hunted and doing your best to survive, you never saw the strike coming that finally ended your life.
Titans are the doomguy, the hungry dragons, the charging bull, the avalanche, the landslide, the meteor, and the roaring fire. Once they get going, they keep going, building momentum as they go and wrecking and consuming everything in their path. You can put up obstacles in their way, but they are either going to knock them down or just rush past as if your attempts to stop them weren't even there. You can definitely fight back, push back, try to stop them, or try and prevent them from building their momentum to begin with, but in so doing, you will find yourself unable to inflict lasting harm, and unable to keep them down forever, only delaying the inevitable. They have the resilience to take whatever attacks you can throw at them, and chances are, your attacks are just going to set them off on their path of destruction anyway. They adapt quickly to your countermeasures, and break out of any containment. Fighting a Titan should feel like trying to break down a volcanic mountain, or deflect a planet-ending meteor. You can certainly deal damage, to the mountain, but it won't change much, and you're just as likely to set off a landslide or eruption. You can, with extraordinary effort, deflect a meteor if you see it coming early enough, but it's just going to pass by, then swing around and come at you again for round 2. You can't stop them, you can't kill them, and you can't break them down in any meaningful way. Either move out of their way, or be consumed and turned into rubble. You can, in theory, wear them away little by little until they finally give in, but by the time you succeed, the damage is already done, and they sit atop of mountain of bodies so large, the effort you spent trying to kill them hurt yourself far more than it did them.
Yes, I'm a Titan, yes, I like punching things. But that was always only ever a fraction of what made me enjoy the class. Punching things is a means to an end, a tool in my belt that I can always rely on in a pinch. But it is not at all my defining characteristic. That's not what I miss about playing a Titan.
I miss that feeling of momentum and explosive power. I miss the ability to move fluidly from gunfight to gunfight, consuming all in my path and using it to fuel my fire. I miss taking on entire armies, where the enemy gives it everything they have, only to break against my shield and fall to my sword, again and again and again until there are no more enemies left to fight. I miss that feeling of being the rock to keep my team steady, and the shield behind which my friends duck for cover.
Please Bungie, for the love of the Traveler, make Titans the unstoppable armored warriors that they used to be. Give us more explosions and more momentum. I fricking love this game, and it sucks when my favorite class has its kit taken away, nerfed, and given to other classes.
P.S.: thank you for coming to my TEDtalk.
@@LDSG_A_Team yooooo your comment sums up so much of what I want titans to be and as a titan main I approve what your saying lol
@LDSG_A_Team Your comment doesn't seem to fit Warlocks and Hunters either. Like, it hypes all classes way above what they feel like. If only I felt anything close to what you described as a Warlock. Don't get me wrong, it felt great reading through all that and thinking ah yes, I agree, this is how it should feel like. But it doesn't feel like that as any class imo.
@@amonggus1 it's supposed to be an exaggeration. The descriptions I gave are meant to be the perfect vision and impossible goal that each class is supposed to chase after. It's about describing the IDENTITY of each class, more than anything.
Send this to Bungie, holy shit. Your descriptions of the classes are incredible. You are describing a game that I would absolutely love to play.
I’m just saying, the original scrapped Strand super looked like it was going to be a flamethrower/Minigun. Maybe if that was added Titans would be back on top.
Wish warlock got their scrapped spider strand super 😭
This would be great. Truly.
@Forcer69 I heavily doubt that, to be honest. Any weapon like that would be a long dps weapon, and long dps ults don't typically do well unless you can one off it, then switch back to your heavy while it works in the background. There is a reason the warlock arc ult hasn't been relevant since it's glimmering in trials.
1 good super isn't going to change things lol
it was just concept art, it doesnt mean it was ever actually going to be a thing
The worst part to me is that when titans are at their lowest, it is absolutely everything. Every type is subpar compared to what you can get out of a warlock or a hunter in almost every way.
But when titans are at their highest peak it is because of one simply busted mechanic. It's never the whole class that is at fault, in fact everything else is still just as mediocre as before. Hammer one two punch synthos? Strand one two punch grapple melee? Void one two punch shield bash? Even just arc storm grenade spam. All definitely too strong at their peak but nerfed out of existence and not replaced with anything new, leaving a power vacuum that is swept up by new hunter and warlock strats
i simply want to have something to my class. make me a tank, a melee powerhouse, i dont really care which but dont just nerf titans and not give them an alternative. I still have to go back to solar or strand when doing endgame content and its boring.
@@jaunks oof same being a titan main sucks but I will not be a hunter main or warlock main lol.
@@VoidCraftGaming same
On top of that Bungie nerfing exotics like severance enclosure that has never been updated by Bungie or even used by player's in year's but turned out to be a fun niche way to play and do ad clear in Onslaught legend, which isn't even endgame, I guess they only want player's to one punch shot gun builds and nothing else
I play all 3 classes but I haven't even touched Titan this update
@@VoidCraftGaming Same here brother. Titan for 10 years, not stopping now.
Armamentarium absolutely needs to have one universal scavenger and reserve mod built in.
It was literally designed to buff all armaments (not just add +1 grenade) but was introduced in D2 as a shell of its former self and has never been returned to its D1 glory.
This. I want titan to be the "heavy ammo/weapon" class
@@ivsper1441 and that would fit their design philosophy so much better, Because they design things in a way to where you cannot melee them in high-end content. Unless you are on a roll (with something like combination below or worm gods) or you have so many buffs stacked to where you can just kill them instantly. Heavy weapons make more sense.
For stasis Titan, Behemoth felt like they were going for “the glacier is slow, but the glacier is coming, nothing you can do will stop it from crushing you”.
which is fine but then our shatter damage should be like, twice what it is
And yet I hate Titan stasis super...and the expansion that came with it.
Although ironically, Behemoth is among the faster Titan subclasses. Shiver Strike and Glacial Quake among them.
My feelings are all over the place as titan, a warlock is defending my class....
Yes sir we gotcha, y'all need some serious help
@@jekkin8972 smooches
Yep, as a titan main, I got no negative feeling for warlocks, they are fine on their own, but hunters... Oh hunters, way over tuned in TFS and 99% guarantee that Bungie will nerf them in some way in a future patch, and I didn't even say that they stole our playstyle by being a better puncher then us
I've had a Hunter defend our Class, too. And he even said we should get Twilight Garrison, and is even the one who brought it up.
@@angelousmortis8041 well, that means that guy is a good hunter, hahaha
Who could have though the class that needs melee kill is bad in a game where you cant melee most enemies?
titan isn’t bad? this is such an oversimplification. titans are decent they just aren’t at the level hunters and warlocks are at currently. just because day one raiders didn’t use titan doesn’t mean titan is bad in all areas of the game.
you regurgitated that comment anyway, i know because i’ve seen it everywhere. think for yourself and maybe your ideas will actually have some depth to them.
@@mapowey7214 i play all 3 classes and titans definetly are bad
@@mapowey7214if one class is decent but outplayed by others it means that its bad. If it was decent then it would be able to compete it some comparisons. But nah, both warlocks and hunters can do titans' job better than titans THEMSELVES - survivability, DPS, raw damage, crowd control and etc
Hunters recently got absolutely busted melee build for strand while titans get gutted just because they "became a bit stronger than others". And bungee should BUFF titans to level of warlocks and hunters rather than nerfing
@@nonixus661 i also play all three classes and titan is definitely the worst of the 3. that doesnt mean titan is bad. i was still able to complete the solo legendary campaign on titan with basically the same effort as hunter and warlock. yes maybe i had to think a little bit more on titan (ironic), but titan is not “bad” in any sense of the word. the difference in strength is only really noticeable in the hardest possible content (contest mode raids). if you are just doing dungeons and seasonal activities titans are just as strong as the other classes because literally everything is strong in that type of content.
i do think titans need to change, but saying titan is bad is just disingenuous and wrong. its more like the other classes are so insanely good that titan SEEMS like it’s lacking.
@@mapowey7214 If you like homemade bread but its moldy, you wouldn't eat it because its moldy. Doesn't matter how much you like homemade bread.
Thanks mister warlock man. Ever since bonk hammer got nerfed, my crayons haven't tasted the same. Maybe we'll be able to stand together again
lol
ideas for light class identities.
the striker: is a mobile ass kicking class, they charge in faster than a rocket and punch everything till it dies. You are the lightning and the sound of your fist making contact is the thunder.
Defender/sentinel: You are team support, you give overshield and supress enemies. You are a noble knight protecting others with your strong shield
Hammer: artillery is king of the battlefield, its not a war crime if there not human. Use your hammers and gernades to destroy everything you see with fire and explosions.
striker: useless in endgame because melee is basically suicide
sentinel: useless because over shield has been nerfed into being made of paper
hammer: just run warlock?
I think banner of war and precious scars is an excellent class identity direction for Titans. Give every one of their subclasses a DnD-esque Paladin Aura or a TF2-esque Soldier backpack. Bastion doesn’t enhance your barricade, you as a Titan emit an over shield regenerating aura. Sunspots grant sun warrior *by default*, give Phoenix cradle a bonus effect.
Yeah that is awesome.
I like the idea that Warlock and Titan offer different forms of support
Warlocks provide passive or automated support effects
Titans provide things you can use. Relics, auras, etc
As
As a Titan main They should add a unique banner to all subclasses TBH like you said void banner one may give overshield to the Titan and the Ally's in the aura, ARC banner can give amplified etc. etc. you get the point
That's what i was thinking, Titans should become what they are named after, "Titans", walls of impenetrable mass, tanks that could shrug off being crushed by a mountain.
Honestly just break apart Banner of War to other subclasses then at that point, Solar gets the healing aspect + radiant on solar weapon kills, Arc gets the melee aspect + ability regeneration pulses so that arc titans can spam their arc melees, Void gains pulses of overshields and allows weapons to apply volatile more easily, Stasis should have the best synerfy with Frost Armor on titan and maybe an aoe freeze around the titan while the Stasis banner is up, and Strand should have Woven Mail and Unraveling Rounds synergy.
Or make Titans the paragons of non-kinetic weapons, where their banners provide the easiest access to stuff like Scorch and Slow, like how Tommy's Matchbook and Wicked Implement applies the verbs, with Void and Strand providing the specialized rounds for those weapons. Arc would probably still be a melee focused banner still, but thats fine as I see arc as the melee subclass for Titan the most.
And if course Prismatic shouldnt have access to these banners, but maybe on Titans allow Transcendence to provide weapon buffs like Volatile? Would make it better than providing a nade that only applies Jolt to bosses at least and everything else that the other classes gets with the buff, as Warlock has the best Aoe clearing gernade and Hunters have something they can stick onto bosses easily.
this would be cool as hell
An interesting interview near the start of Lightfall highlighted one of Bungie's issues with balancing the class. A dev, responding to the complaints at the time that Berserker's super was just "Green flavored Fist of Havoc", claimed that punching was a chief part of the Titan class identity, claiming "at the end of the day, Titan players, your class is the guy clenching a fist on the cover of the game". During the Twilight Garrison debacle, Kevin Yanes (a Warlock main with deciding power at Bungie) claimed that Garrison would never return, because it was not part of Titan's identity...even though only one subclass within one class (notably the one that Yanes used all the time) had any sort of Air Superiority. It's not really part of Warlock's identity, either. Note that I, as somebody who has been a game dev myself, would never condone the harassment of another dev, but I also know as a game dev that it's difficult to ignore your own biases sometimes.
Now, if Titan's identity, as claimed by Bungie, is "the guy punching stuff", why has every attempt been made to decrease the competency of their punches over the last 3 years? My answer is that Bungie doesn't actually play their own game at a high enough level to know the flaws of the class intimately. Bungie's been caught testing at +20 in footage put out themselves, while the average player has to fight at -5 these days, with many players having to go into GMs at -40 because you need Pinnacle+20 for GMs this season, which is already -20 to start with. Bungie's encounter design and enemy design is such that, at any level of play where your build actually matters, going into melee range is borderline suicidal or outright impossible. Most enemies have spammable One-Hit-Kill Stomps that will nuke you if you aren't running 100 RES and 3x Melee Resist, and even then you'll probably still die in 2 hits since the stomps don't have any reactable delay. So, you have a case of Bungie saying that Titans should be doing one thing, then punishing them at every turn for doing that one thing.
"Class Identity" has been used by Bungie devs to win arguments online more than it has to actually balance the classes.
I think that's a failure of Bungie's designers.
solarlock being aerial is def part of the identity bungie has in mind? half (used to be 2/3) of the aspects are for being in the air and the original super gives you wings
@@hastur2905 yeah but if u really think about it they haven't directly said that and if that were true they wouldn't have the worst jump in the game, that seems more like a correction made so that warlocks could more easily make their jumps since for a long time especially in d1 struggled a lot at times and couldn't make the same simple jumps hunters and titans could. That to me makes sense since solarlocks thing was being able to self revive before it got reworked in d2
@@hastur2905 If warlock being able to fly was part of the class identity, more than one subclass would have access to it.
I don't think it's just a play testing problem. None of them actively play titan at all let alone on difficult content
true @JeanneDGames
When subclass 2.0 came out, it destroyed my Titan's main go to class.... Void.
Being a Top Tree Sentinel main back then, being able to at LEAST have the utility of OFF/DEF super helped a LOT... THEY TOOK THAT AWAY FROM ME AND I NEVER FORGAVE BUNGO. MY SOUL FESTERS WITH YEARS OF HATRED.
That changed killed Titans' spot in the meta. That was the worst change that Bungie ever made.
the fact they still havent made void titan worth using in years is just pathetic. 3/5 titan subclasses arent worth using in any difficult content and the other 2 arent even better than the other classes
As a Titan main, I'd suggest the following things that can be done now without a complete rework:
Void: Bastion causes Titan over shield to regen even if broken as long as the counter is still running. Combine that with the timer sustain of Offensive Bullwark and blam, instant awesome. You'd get a good amount of hp, nice grenade regeneration, powerful melee. It'd kinda be the perfect Titan.
Arc: We need a Super that is worth a damn vs far away bosses. Can't superman into Oryx / The Witness without dying. Certain't can't Fist of Havoc them. Give us something. Also buff Fists of Havoc to be scary, again. And Maybe do something with Jolt to give utility to Juggernaut and Knockout.
Solar: Make Roaring Flames useful. I don't use it because there is no good way to activate it. It needs to synergies with SOMETHING. Maybe activate it on being Radiant, add stacks on Ignites, and give the powered melees some of that nice Hunter Radiance on hit?
Stasis: Can we please get a powered melee that does something? ANYTHING?! Hunters kill three light enemies with one throw. Warlock freeze a few enemies at range. Titans get NOTHING. That thing needs to make some Stasis Crystals. It needs to feel worth using.
Strand: Weirdly, I think Strand is mostly ok. Stop nerfing it. Someday give us a ranged Super that's worth anything against the Oryx/Witness style bosses. And yeah... it would be nice to create a threadling. But damage output, survivability, and suspend are ok right now.
My biggest complaint about Titan is that the Warlock Well of Radiance stole our entire identity of support when D2 launched. Every single raid, all of them I've played, have had stand in the Warlock circle as a core, necessary part. Bubble is shunned in all forms because while it can do total defense, total defense gets you enraged and dead in Raids. Banner shield is shunned because in the best of times it only just barely buffed total team damage if everyone used it. With few good ranged Supers and Well taking away the buff/defense slot, I've NEVER felt useful in a Raid since D2 launched.
Finally, maybe don't give everybody every grenade type? Pulse, Suppress, and Thermite grenades made Titans unique. Maybe they were a bit niche, but there was nothing better than bouncing a suppression grenade into a room just in time to save your team from an enemy Super. Now, everyone can do it...
THANK GOD! People are finally taking the flaws in the Titan Class Identity seriously. Tuna was the first to really do it, as far as I know, but now the bigger D2 personalities are making videos talking about it, FINALLY. Bungie needs to do something, and I hope they take what we the people are saying into account and make Titans into something truely special and fun.
Go look at our REALLY old videos about titans. We have been on this for literally years and are just now big enough to make a splash
@@TDTProductions Ya learn something new every day. You are a real one
Don't get your hopes up. Cuz I can promise you. Nothing of real meat or significance will change. Period. Just play another game
Agreed. I honestly started to feel it when Pantheon came out, and my team was cheesing Nez. I felt extremely useless during that fight since I couldn't do anything from range. I considered swapping to Hunter even. We had one other run on both Riven and Nez. We only got the platinum on Nez because we had an extra Hunter, and Nez was only easier because I was baiting him in Melee range. Basically, if the boss couldn't be Meleed at the moment, I was useless. The only other time when Titan was useful was insta-killing the Tormentor on Planets with Strand.
Here I am, throwing my two cents in. As an avid titan player from all the way back to Destiny 1, Launch Day. The game does need to ebb and flow, have ups and down, that's how it is. Titans originally were the wall the darkness breaks upon. We're in a day and age where that line doesn't work. I've seen it time and time again. Titans are the melee brawlers, titans are the melee unstoppable killing machines. We're in a point where melee = death, and there's nothing denying that. Try to do 1-2 punch in a GM and tell me how safe it is. If it's a single add? Sure, you might survive, but you can't focus and isolate a single high value target, ie Champions in a room, you're dead. GG.
What needs to happen in my own honest opinion, is a full on titan rework. They can't be the melee focused class anymore. It's just not viable. If they are to change, remove their melee brawler aspect and turn them into a Heavy Unit Class. Damage Reduction, Keep the attention away from Hunter/Warlock, have them be the frontline that the enemy has to push past instead of the melee brawler, have them be a heavy frontline unit where they can funnel and keep. That's just my two cents. Keep them as the frontline class, but change them from brawler to Stalwart Defender.
Would this be very difficult, if not impossible to do? Oh no doubt. But it would have a better use than what titans are right now with "Punch everything". You can insult my take, you can call me a fucking moron or put me on copium. Your entilted to your opinion as I'm entitled to mine. Some may agree, some may disagree, but this is how I'd envision titans moving forward. Have them become the Tank of the Guardian Trio.
Good luck out there fellow Titans. Don't lose hope. We're at a low, but we'll get out of it stronger, hopefully.
This is something I wished I emphasized better in the video. I too want titans to be the tank class. As an example, my favorite set ups are icefall mantle glaive titan, and unbreakable ursa furiosa titan
@@TDTProductions Unbreakable Ursa Furiosa is one I do genuinely enjoy, it feels meaty and beefy and it's a step I like. It's time for Titans to really embrace being the Tanks of Destiny, and I hope Bungie sees this, whether it be on a tweet, forum, or anything.
I would love for Titan to be the Tank, because broadly speaking Hunter is a DPS class, Warlock is a healing class.
It would make the most sense for a Titan to be the tank class.
We have Ursa (which is very niche) to hold the line and protect the team, same with Ward.
But the other subclasses have their niches too, outside of banner which is as close to a tank as you're going to be.
But even on GM difficulty banner gets shut down.
I agree with everything except the last paragraph. Yes, it would be difficult, but FAR from impossible. In fact, what you suggested is EXACTLY what Bungie needs to do without question! Titans should do exactly what you said and more.
heavy unit
perfect add clear
High aggro and defense
Maybe even dropping more ammo for allies, or ability recharge rate
Weapon damage buffs more substantial than the empowering rift (Which Imo, Warlocks shouldn't have.)
Or better yet, if Bungie want's to make y'all melee brawlers. Banner of war is the right direction. Give titans the freedom to do what they do best, but still be supportable without them having to scream "LEEROY" every time they rally.
As a Titan only player since the alpha and beta, you said it perfectly. I want to be the first in. the first gun. The first to die. I want to move in fast, jump high, and have all the adds shoot me while my team slips by. To be the tank, The sheild, The wall.
How cool would it be to say, "Get behind me"
I started playing destiny back in the beta, and i played and started destiny 1 as a hunter to fill the three man group of warlock and titan.
It wasn't until the first iron banner that my brother showed me the light of Titan. Fist of havok with helm of inner most light.
I never went back.
I play each class to enjoy all that they offer, but Titan was always my favorite.
The first in the campaign, the first in a raid...
But i despised what we became. "Crayon eaters." We were dubbed. But i remember a time. We stood as the bulwark in the first raid. The first raid artifact was a SHIELD FORGED OF A TITAN!
A shield that all stood behind. Even now, that very shield was used against the witness in the final mission of our campaign.
We could have been more than the raised fist. A protector. The front line. The tip of the spear. We could have been the line in the sand.
But we became destroyers. Given form by bungie as the melee class. that's all most Titans have ever known...
we can be more.
We must choose to be better.
It’s not possible to choose better when Bungie continues to shoehorn titans into being only melee
This is my take: titans are in a weird spot because Bungie put them there. If you look at the Entire Class system, Bungie opened it up for all classes with Subclass 3.0 and giving everyone access to all the Grenades, which was a major step in the right direction. It gave Hunters and Titans access to Vortex and Solar Grenades which as we all know are Warlock staples. It gave Warlocks access to Tripmine, Void Wall and Skip Grenades which adds to a warlocks PVP setup. During this time, it also Diversified the classes as well as Warlocks were specifically given things that made them feel like a support class, hunters were given things that made them feel like the best Super DPS option(Star-Eaters, Shards, Nighthawk). Titans were putting a place where they are almost exclusive to hitting things. Here's 2 starting ways you can make Titans better:
1. The Banner of War is not so much as a Aspect as it is an exotic. The Well of Radiance is what should have been for Warlocks as BOW is for titans. The Well should have been mobile with the Warlocks like Banner is for titans. Solution: Take out D-Lash and Add that instead as the Titan Prismatic kit.
2. The Class exotic is game-changing but there isn't any real titan feel to it. Solution: Add the following Traits from a titan:
Spirit of the Doomfangs (how could one of the Original D2 titan exotics which has the Sentinel titan chucking Captain America shields in PVP like it's rain not be there? Huh Bungie?!?) Which could give extra Super energy on melee kills in general.
Spirit of the Scars which could give an Overshield to all nearby Fireteam members after reviving another.
Spirit of the Warden which converts your class ability into a mobile class ability. For Warlocks a mobile Rift. For Hunters an mobile decoy similar to their strand decoy.
Spirit of the Leap which when Tangles are destroyed they send 2 D-Lash like streams Suspends
Spirit of the Alpha Lupi which increase orb generation for all.
Also this is for all: Open up the Grenades for all classes again. I saw more Titans using Scatter, Solar and Storm Grenades last year than ever and it was because the had access to a much higher kit that they could use. It also gives them more range and takes some of that Hulk smash mentality away from them and embraces the Smart Hulk thinking.
So Spirit of Scars is actually already on the mark in Column 2 (I personally think it should've been Column 1) and it's the healing effect with weapons matching your super
Titans got flanderized for years and only now are the masses truly waking up to the consequences
We’ve been on this for over 2 years. Go see our REALLY old (and bad) titan videos. I think it’s more that bungie finally saw it
You can't pretend like Titan's didn't have moment of dominance. It was mostly in PVP community where the Flanderizing came from, because who would have thought that a bullet sponge in PVP would make squishy warlocks and hunters angry little rats? That isn't to say I agree though. There's no point in titans outside of PVP. Hell, I barely even SEE a barricade these days (For better of for worse, when it comes to my explosive users.)
@@okamiexe1501 this is a PVE game
@@okamiexe1501I always assumed hunter movement was seen as the better pvp option.movement in a fps is more important than aim.but the hunter skill ceiling is high .so an average hunter getting shoulder charged just breaks their spirit which is not good considering most players are hunters.
@@criscat1750then why do they put rewards in pvp
Mfs will look at this and be like "hurrr, but strand titan navigator dungeon hurrr, banner of warrr, they are LE BROKEN bro"
Meanwhile Behemoth is dead in the water, Sentinel has the worst Verb usage of nearly all subclasses, Strikers melee side became a worse version of Arcstrider's and the bombardier side is outclassed by any grenade build on Warlock, Sunbreaker's are a shadow of their former selves, Prismatic is [consecration spam] galore with sub-par sustain and 80% of the exotic Titan cataloge is mid at best and useless at worst.
And don't forget how the "Tank" of the trio is just as, IF NOT LESS TANKY than the other 2, or how any survivability and sustain gets nerfed on them (Void overshields, woven mail, restoration 2x on Loreley, etc).
Titans need help. Rant over.
I have been a titan main since beyond light and this is the first time I am actually going to be playing more of the other classes at least until they get buffed.
@user-yw4mf6pn8d Me too, I have been playing Titan since Destiny 1 and sincerely this is the first time I'm playing outside of my Titan, aside from the campaigns to unlock stasis, strand, and prismatic. Currently using my Warlock and I can tell they're better as of now. Woe to the vanquished I suppose
They can't be tanks,because they have to have the same ttk as the rest of us. If bungie would only nerf in pvp and not pve we would be fine. They either give Titans one hitters or make them annoying to kill. People don't seem to know how to build for a titan or this video would be very different.
The only way to feel like a tank on Titan, in my opinion, is to run a build centered around strong hold. The problem with this however is that same as before. If you can melee or sword the boss, you are useless.
Isn’t behemoth still the strongest damage super in the game when paired with that one exotic?
As a proud titan main. You hit the nail on the head here. You’ve vocalized my feelings about the state of titan damm near perfectly.
I do think our viability problem right now is a bit overblown, at least for the strong sub-classes (Arc, Void, and stasis feels kinda awful in endgame content but Prismatic, Solar, and Strand are still perfectly useful)
But they all need some sort of refocus at their core/something unique outside of melee spam.
I’ve always thought it would be so cool to have Solar Titan get a ‘forge’ super: planting down a giant pillar with a ton of HP that provides cover to teammates and emits occasional scorch blasts in an aoe around it. Hallowfire could be reworked this way to drop Sunspots inside the aforementioned aoe and allow Sunspots to do similar emissions to the Forge, possibly making a self made loop of Sunspots.
What’s frustrating is that Titans have just as much POTENTIAL for a unique identity and niche as the others.
Hunter. The mobile assassin, the invisible rogue, the dead eyed gunslinger.
Warlock. Master of magic, the arcane manipulator, the radiant angel.
Titan. The punch monkey.
Bungie has flanderized titan so hard they don’t even know what titans should be good at anymore. All of Their subclasses are held together with a single good aspect and a prayer that the 3 exotics they have won’t be nerfed.
Is it just me or do Titan mains seem to *love* being the punch monkey tho?
I vaugly remember from the start of D2 when bungie announced they were remaking the 3 subclasses so they could give each class a stronger identity to make them more distinct from each other. If I remember right, they follow as such:
Warlocks channel the light in its raw form
Hunter makes weapons out of the light
Titans enhanced their bodies with the light.
This works for hunter and warlock, but there is only so much you can do with the titan identity without remaking arc titan. And giving titan a weapon super like everyone wants infringes on the hunter identity. There are acceptions to this, but most of that is in style not function ie solar/stasis warlock and void titan. And the big infringement is solar titan, which is a holdover from D1 before the identity rework. And now void axe is also a big infringement on the hunter identity although a 2H axe does not fit the hunter motif
Titan suffers because it's identity is very specific and limiting, hunter shines becuse it's identity is vauge and as expansive as your imagination. And warlock is kinda prdictable and boring
@@Moose_Hawkins nah fr, every titan main I talk wants to just punch...idk why
@@Moose_HawkinsIt's just you. There's many Titans I've met in my years who wish we could do more. It's why I prided myself as being the team's Iron Wall of Defense/Offense by being a top tree void main since day one. Now with all the changes and nerfs, I'm a shadow of my former self. It hurts and honestly thinking about quitting D2 after I finish the new story. I'm tired of the years of suffering. This all started since Beyond Light. The nerfs haven't stopped since and it's only gotten worse.
@@Guile_The_Exile okay thanks for the response but I'm not reading all that
Im still mad to this day they gave a volatile rounds exotic to hunters and not the class that specialises in it, ever since season of the plunder i have had a grudge against that exotic and i thought the class item would've let titans use it but no :(
As a warlock main everyone getting devour easier then warlocks with feed the void hurt my soul
@@bigboywillis2812 To be fair, Warlocks get more utility out of Devour
Same with Triton Vice. Give that to Titans and give Hunters something else.
@@centimanj8916 yeah true but it’s always weirded me out that the other classes can get it
Combination blow make no sense to me, why is on hunter? Why isn't it on THE melee class?
Thank you, for someone finally bringing this up :,)
Ive been trying to bring this up for so goddamn long just to get shit about "bubble in Trials" even though thats such a small aspect of the overall game.
This might be plain stupid: but what if Citan's let you shoot through Ward of Dawn?
that would be great although I think being able to shoot though it should be default lol!
@@VoidCraftGaming PvP would have its issue but I dont play it so doesnt bother me. Never understood why Ward of dawn cant be shot through. Like cool Im safe now but if I step out I die, and nothing outside will die unless I step out. Same issue with towering barricade, theyre both good defence options, just at the cost of all offence
I think it’d be cool af, but perhaps with a damage penalty so Bungie isn’t as tempted to just destroy the bubble. Speaking of, I’d much rather Citan’s in general reduce damage output (even significantly) than completely fold to a light breeze.
but then it would be like a warlock well and you cant have titans being better than the others
I've been a Titan main since 2014. I'll never stop, but it hurts to be neglected
I think we're past neglect. Edging into "he hurts me because I deserve it" territory
Same here, brother. I'll never give up on my titan, but bungie makes it feel like I am a criminal for choosing to be one.
neglected? you can pretty much find a nerf for the titan class in any TWID since witch queen.
because we weren't neglected is what put us in this spot :D
I have 2339 hours on my Titan and 2 on my warlock lol that i only use to transfer weapons to from Dim to delete in game lol. I feel you fellow Titan the hurt is real!
As someone who mains titan I think that all of your ideas were actually great but just one thing titans need is a super on each class that actually has range as the main attack so you can use them on all bosses. They don't have to be as good as the other classes but it's a shame that we miss out on a good chunk of dps from not using our supers.
yes I would love this I am sick and tired of having to go close to a boss with a super on titan and dyeing or even worse not being able to do anything at all!
Yes! I've had enough of wasting my super on ads because it would be useless against the boss and losing that extra damage that could help.
Dude, I'm a Titan main, and I just want to say thank you for making a video about this. A lot of the stuff you've said in this video i agree with. Titans don't get as much love as hunters and warlocks... and for someone who, like you said, uses warlock a lot, this video means a lot. So thank you
I actually think Offensive Bulwark should lose all of its "melee" specific traits and be changed to just grant bonus damage against targets within 15 meters (maybe even just have an AoE weaken with 0.1 second duration debuff) while an overshield is active and provide 15 points of overshields when defeating targets within 15 meters EVEN IF THERE IS NO ACTIVE SHIELD.
This aspect is way way too short lived in more modern content with high ad density for it to require the use of an entire melee charge or the entire second aspect slot for it to be activated. It needs to be able to turn itself on somehow for it to actually provide value and lean into its intended playstyle. As its activation requirements currently stand the best use of Offensive Bulwark is to get an overshield and then hide so that it will regenerate the user's grenade so that they can better hang back away from enemies.
I think trading in the melee bonus for a generic "close range" bonus with no special need to babysit the tissue paper oveshield for its buffs would enable a completely new playstyle for Titans that revolves around getting in close and taking risks to deal increased damage and better support their team through aggression.
It's telling that the most powerful Sentinel builds right now typically involve getting an overshield, turning invisible, killing one thing, and then running away instead of actually staying engaged with enemies. It's a far cry from being the team's unbreakable front-line shield.
With the original statement made by the dev it looks like they already intend to focus more on titans as a whole. "looking at that which is not just prismatic at all." Bungie is aware that titans are falling way behind other classes, and regardless of the few builds we have as Titans, that statement says enough. The community arguments on the topic seem overall inconsequential when Bungie themselves can see it.
Edit: Please do not mistake my comment for me saying I'm not willing to debate on titans, my overall thought comes to the chosen class identity by bungie themselves. Melee isn't an identity in my mind. Tank is how i have always believed the thought should've been. even in lore the emblem for titan is about them holding the wall at six fronts. However with the current state of titans the only way i find that fantasy is by putting on strongholds and giggling when enemies think they deal damage.
I see it more as a way to make it more of a dialogue it worked with raid surges so hopefully it will work here
Honestly man great video hope you keep making this kind of stuff your points are great hopefully this brings the right kind of attention to the class and game as a whole.
Titan main here.
Your assessment is 100% correct. Titans are often seen as "the melee class" purely because of the fact that Titan Melee abilities can make or break the entire subclass. That, coupled with the fact that literally *ALL* of our subclasses use some form of melee in them.
For example. Void has 3 supers; a large dome shield, a handheld shield *that you can throw* and block with or three large axes that deal damage to an enemy *and can be picked up*
2 of the 3 options for us titans on a single subclass use melee. This trend is on literally all of our subclasses, sometimes having no other options at all.
People do really tend to forget that when Arc 3.0 came out, the meta pick for titans wasn't any of the melee options. It was a grenade build. Void was the same. People hated void 3.0 because the void melee options weren't great, so people used grenades. Then Solar 3.0 came out and everyone hated the solar grenade options and instead relied on the throwing hammer (people hated consecration too, now you can't make a Prismatic build without it).
At the end of the day, us Titans need something to help us compete with the likes of Hunters and Warlocks. We either need more options for stuff to do, or we need pre-nerf melees that can melt bosses in a heartbeat. Maybe even more melee options to choose from.
And, you know, a super that is a 1-and-done and doesn't require an exotic to do well with.
I’ve always said I’m a better Titan than Hunter, yet I’m a Hunter main because I like their kit better. I play Hunter like a front liner, regardless of how little health I have, I will jump into the fray like a goddamn madman giggling as I murder my enemies, then die in 2 seconds because I’m in a GM and forgot my health is that of a crunchy autumn leaf. I can now point people towards this exact video as to why I like the Hunter kit more.
I also feel like the video can be broken down to this, Hunters are THE dps class, and CAN be a tank or support. Warlocks are THE support class, and CAN be a tank or dps. But Titans CAN be a tank, or a support, or a dps. They are meant to be THE tank, but don’t have anything that truly symbolizes that role other than the barricade shield, but that’s not really anything special. Titans “Yay I can make cover wherever I happen to be.” Hunters and Warlocks “bro for the love of god, JUST USE THE ROCK THATS 3 FEET AWAY FROM YOU”
Titans are in a spot where we aren't good at any one particular thing, but we don't excel in an area where anyone is saying" Guys can someone please play a titan for this" Add clear is not the answer. No one completes an encounter, or a boss, and says " whew look at that kill count, nice job guys" while also being bottom of the dps chart. in LFG that is a quick way to get yourself removed from a group. However, Titan subclasses are inherently catered to being in melee range, with a large number of bosses that either inhibit or punish people for being in melee range, or carry aspects that require you to stay in place to be able to do damage. Couple that with Exotics that build into the same idea of " Melee" and there is not much we can do against bosses like The Taken King or More recently the Witness who dangle off the edge and out of reach. Hunters, being Bungie's favored child, got the pinnacle of options with Celestial Nighthawk when Silent HUnt released. Everyone knew it. Even with Hazardous Propulsion in our arsenal, its only because it lets us do something ranged damage wise, but it doesn't do anything for our class. Subclasses in titan don't build towards the fantasy that was being " The Warrior". Any time we find something that actually works, bungie nerfs us. Even today, Hunters have exceeded us in the melee aspect now. So what are we left with? Ward was nerf, so our utility options are basically gone, half our supers require melee range or are "add clear" supers. We are not a warrior, we are just one of those unnamed Spartans from Halo that Bungie can't let go of. If Hunters are Damage, and Warlocks are Support, shouldnt Titans be the role that protects? Yet we are constantly in a state of vulnerability more so than our brethren who can heal on the spot or dodge out of everything. Our shields aren't used because it becomes more of a hindrance than a help. So what are we? Having played Titan since BEta in D1, I can say I just feel like an extra. Half thought out ideas, from a creative team that isn't even staffed by people who play and truly understand the class. IN truth I hope D2 is the end for Destiny so that I can say good bye to the disappointment season after season, expansion after expansion.
Thruster, realized/remembered recently that the other Classes got stuff with their extra Class Abilities, Warlock got healing + synergy with heat rises, Hunter got Radiant, Titan got NOTHING, so yeah, adding Amplified when enemies are near would be nice, but I like my idea below a little more.
Adding those extra abilities to each Sub-class would be nice as well, and giving them various abilities depending on your Super would be awesome too. Titans Thruster works with an Aspect now so I Tried adding aspect synergy to all variants,
Titan/Thruster, (Replaces Barricade, so I'm trying to make it more like infusing Barricade into the user)
- Solar, Thruster creates a Sunspot, with Sol Invictus Aspect, using Thruster while in a Sunspot applies it's buff to nearby allies, and increases the buff for the user.
- Arc, Thruster Blinds nearby targets, with Juggernaut Aspect, Radius of Blind is increased and gain damage resist for a short duration based on enemies nearby. (Make the Blind radius weaker the further you are, so in PvP you're only completely blind when POINT-BLANK with the Titan)
- Void, Thruster gives the user an Overshield(or small chunk), with Bastion Aspect, allies also get an Overshield, if the user already has an Overshield it's refreshed and you gain damage resistance for the duration.
- Stasis, Thruster creates a trail of small Stasis Crystals, with Howl of the Storm Aspect, Stasis Crystals created become larger and you create more.
- Strand, Thruster gives you Woven Mail, with Drengr's Lash Aspect, Radius of Drengr's Lash is increased.
Warlock/Phoenix Dive, (These might seem a touch weak, but, it has a faster Cooldown than Rifts)
- Solar, wider/stronger Scorch radius from Heat Rises.
- Arc, gives an Arc Soul, with Arc Soul Aspect, Amplifies user and shares the Arc Soul with teammates. (Maybe Amplify teammates if user is already Amplified)
- Void, activates Devour, with Feed the Void Aspect, if Devour is already active, shares Devour with Teammates.
- Stasis, Shatter Frozen Combatants, with Frost Pulse Aspect, regain class ability energy based in enemies shattered(5-10% per enemy?) also Freeze and Shatter enemies in Proximity, similar to Winter's Guile. (FINALLY a reliable way for Warlocks to Shatter enemies, even though it's basically Shatterdive with a cooldown)
- Strand, Spawn 2 Threadlings, with Weaver's Call Aspect, Spawn 6 Threadlings + any perched (Weaver's Call would actually be worth something on Prismatic)
Hunter/Acrobat's Dodge, (Some might seem a touch OP, but, this dodge has the longest cooldown)
- Solar, with Gunpowder Gamble Aspect, when GPG is charged, dodging detonates GPG on landing, not dealing self-damage.
- Arc, Amplify nearby Allies, with Ascension Aspect, activate again soon after Ascension to dive down to the ground creating a weak burst of arc damage on impact (weak burst of arc damage is intended to cause Jolted targets to shock enemies)
- Void, On impact, deploy a smoke bomb that weakens enemies hit by it, with Trappers Ambush Aspect, allies hit by smoke bomb become invisible. (Wanted to make it work with Vanishing Step, couldn't think of anything, and my idea would basically make it need a rework, idk honestly, this one is my worst idea for sure)
- Stasis, Gives allies a stack of Frost Armor on impact, with Winter's Shroud Aspect, slowing burst causes more slow the more Frost Armor stacks you have. (Freeze on Max Stacks)
- Strand, On impact, unravels nearby targets, with Ensnaring Slam Aspect, activate again to jump into the air and cause nearby suspended targets to create an unraveling burst around them. (The landing of E-Slam looks like your ready to jump back up, so I used that)
For your Exotic suggestion,
Synthoceps, HARD NO, only working with armor charge would make the Exotic COMPLETELY unusable unless you mean adding that to what it already does.
Armamentarium, REALLY want it to do more, same goes with the other classes "extra charge" Exotics, even if they just add more armor mods for free to them.
Seen this been floated around a lot… Just to add, the World First team for Salvation’s Edge included a Titan. This highlights that with strategic gameplay, every class can shine in high-level content. Keen to watch the video and see the analysis on class identity and balance.
As a titan main the most powerful I've ever felt was on 4 separate occasions
First being OG BONK just before witch queen where i was one or two shooting most dungeon bosses.(NERFED)
Second was during this past year with Vexcalibur and glaives felt so strong and made you feel like a real tank class giving my overshield buff to allies and making sure they don't go down and argoing most enemies (NERFED for the most part)
Third was after the changes to swords and strongholds that was hilarious I was the one one v oneing crota on master while the rest of the team did the encounter or taking care of any large champions/tormentors but that was really only a defensive role you could only block and now with the nerfs to Lament and banner or war it's not as good as it use to be(NERFED)
Fourth is the first time I was using the newly buffed precious scars on solar with a incandescent trace rifle and eventually a heal clip + incandescent lunas howl to make sure that my allies health never dropped however that build is only useful if your the one getting the kill which 90% of the time your not (USEFUL but not powerful)
There are other times I've felt strong such as the manticore buff on void titan with doom fang or SWEET BUSINESS but eh most excited I've been to play was for the new hazardous propulsion you know the rocket one and running that with a slice one for all call and a bxr and grand overture has been really fun but not in end game the prismatic kit doesn't have the sustainability for most fights such as healing grenades, devour, controlled demolition, bannor of war. Yes you can get some healing with knockout but that means you have to go in to melee and the most defensive weapon type GLAIVES don't work with knockout and/or offensive bulkwork. The only thing that is useful in a end game sense for prismatic is smacking on as many verbs as possible and praying to God you stay alive long enough to use them all mainly slice, suspend, overshields/woven mail, jolt and suppress.
In short titan as a whole feels like an old shopping mall food court, it has everything you think you want but then you get there and realize that more than half the spots are closed, under new management, recipes changed, or it just isn't as good as it use to be. there are still those old reliable spots but they don't feel the same especially when you look at all of the new restaurants(classes) across the parking lot. Meanwhile prismatic feels like a shity buffet with only some of the things that you liked at the food court but none of what made them special.
Also can I just how fucked up it is that bungie thought titans needed to have bubble nerfed to not provide weapons of light by default. It was barely used, but now there’s no reason to use it unless you use helm of Saint 14
Titans were almost useful, can't have that.
Its perverse that they prefaced it with " Ward of Dawn has long struggled to find a place in our current sandbox" and then hit it with the mother of all Nerfs.
@@centimanj8916 "ward of dawn has long stuggled to find a place in the sandbox, so we ended its suffering"
Bubble was strong in Trials, so they nerfed it into the ground because it was good in one (1) gamemode. All they needed to do was reduce the Weapons of Light damage buff in PvP but they just removed it entirely.
@@evanellis9178 Was it even strong in PvP, like really? especially compared to well?
Speaking from an Titan only perspective, it always felt like all it took was someone walking in and hitting LMB once with a shotgun and Boom. Bubble down.
Your idea with Unbreakable is so awesome! Makes the grenade choice much more important and I can see it synergizing with other things too. Great video! Hopefully Bungie listens to the content creators and Titans in general.
As a Titan main doing the latest raid and playing nightfalls and expert content lately I feel like the major issues, especially when it comes to endgame content, is that we don't really have as much of an ability to use what is unique to us, which are the melee and more CQC oriented builds we're good at, without putting ourselves in extreme risk of burning a res or having to wait for a respawn. Hunters have their knives, smoke bombs, rope darts, and shurikens, Warlocks have two solar options (one close-mid, one long range), as well as a ranged melee in every other class. Titans have a hammer which is hard to use at range, a shield which is hard to use at range, and anything else involves us having to be right in the middle of danger. In addition, as you said, if we want to use a burst super on a boss it has to be something we can melee. Going into the Witness fight being a Titan, I was wiping and seeing my teammates all putting up 2-3 million after a damage phase and I was barely able to break 1.4 million because I couldn't use a super. Plus now Prismatic has basically defaulted to Consecration + Knockout for PvE because anything else just isn't worth using, and even then we need to use Monte Carlo and give up our Exotic slot to reliably make sure we can even do that. We're outclassed every step of the way, and it's not because we need a buff. When the other two classes can run melee builds better and have more reliable uptime on their abilities than "the melee class" we need a rework. Unfortunately the time and effort it would take Bungie to put in the rework isn't something that's likely to happen at this point in the game's lifecycle.
One thing I feel the need to point out is that the big reason Titan was so underrepresented for the Witness is because the fight itself actively punished basically every aspect of every Titan kit, and massively rewarded Hunters (especially Celestial Nighthawk hunters) and, to a lesser extent, Warlocks. Like, all Titan could do on that fight was be reasonably good at add clear and dealing with that nonsense, while Warlocks could provide both good add clear as well as support and healing, an extremely useful role in contest mode, and Hunters could do that _and_ do frankly stupid and gamebreaking amounts of damage to the Witness, with burst damage far beyond anything else we've ever seen in the game, which only made them even more clutch due to how short the Witness' final stand is.
Titan as a class has a lot of issues that need fixing, and I think the analysis in the video is broadly pretty accurate. I just find it weird to use statistics from a fight designed to give a middle finger to the class to support the argument that the class is bad. There's better ways to go about it.
And those 50 are also based on when contest mode is active +half the items in the game being disabled on a world first raid race. That chart is not accurate outside of that.
What fights in this game counter the other two classes? I could be wrong... but I can't think of one that shuts down them whereas I can point out SEVERAL that deny chunks of the Titan's kit. Actually as I type this, HUNTERS are countered... IF they use their melee supers.... which they never really do in PvE.... So... where? I think the fact Titans CAN get shut down like that IS an issue.
The witness being a massive damage check is a core to the problems discussed here, though ... You simply couldn't justify an entire class of character in the culminating fight of the raid because it literally brought nothing to the table. The supers were ineffective so much so that you couldn't justify the ad clear capabilities and even then, the solid enough ad clear wasn't safe because contest level doesn't really allow for melee ad clear without significant risk (and there wasn't spirit of assassin prior to the raid)
Expecting the titan number to be lower is one thing, literally the extreme majority of top teams realizing that titan was an absolute boat anchor is something else entirely
It wasn’t just for the witness. It was the whole raid. Meaning people went into the raid not even knowing what the encounters were gonna be and still didn’t choose a titan
Staying alive and killing things is the primary objective in this game. Warlocks provide healing, they print heavy ammo, they offer mobile damage resist with song of flame, great add control with turrets. Hunters are the best DPS, add clear is pretty effective especially on solar, free revives or safe relocation with invis, best crowd control with tether. Titans have there space as well: Trials capture zone and Atrraks 1. Those are the only times were its best to be a titan. Due to boss health changes, are we still the best for solo dungeons?
With the new healing Auto, been using that on VanOPs and Dungeons just healing everyone as a hunter. The Titans went off the rails… reminds me of the classic Rpg of healing dps/Aggro.
Since unbreakable is part of prismatic as well, how would it work with those grenades? Would you trap yourself in a circle of stasis crystals? suspend boom? A ring or fire? ionic traces on kill and recoup the grenade?
But yeah, there's the nugget of an identity with each class, but it never quite reaches.
Solar: burn a path through and feed on the ashes. Problem: not enough healing after keyword nerfs
Arc: Hit hard, hit fast, hit first! Problem: If you don't hit hard/fast enough, you're dead.
Void: be the wall for the team to lean on. Problem: Not enough defense for the tradeoff in offense
Stasis: shape the battlefield to your needs. Problem: Why can't I hold these aspects? Forming the crystals isn't the problem, it's your kit fighting itself for the two slots.
Strand: Tie 'em up! Slash 'em down! No one's safe! Berserker's out! Problem: literally just the range. As you said in the video, the other classes apply their debuffs from range. Without banner of war, you are taking quite a bit of risk.
Prismatic isolates the issues and shows they don't pair well. Diamond lance is a weird choice, but it is a ranged pickup. Combined with Sol invictus, you could give yourself a free healing space. Juggernaut shield into thruster/drenger's lash to drive by some enemies. Knockout/flechette storm would have been fun given the limelight to another overshadowed aspect.
I've been a Titan main since D1 beta. and I'm glad someone is finally bringing this up cause we truly do lack an identity that fits the game as it is now. They should lean into the tank of Titans and allow our roaming supers to last longer and be unkillable but, they should also let us be true support tanks and allow more shielding of allies. This is just my deepest desire but make our bubble able to shoot through it or at least allow it with the exotic arms
It's a sad truth. I am a warlock main and while I'm doing my other class playthroughs, I've been having sooo much fun playing as a titan and ready to go back after my hunter playthrough. Another thing to notate is the items on the Eververse store for titans....it's very much lacking there too which if Bungie doesn't even make idle animations for them to sell on their money printing machine, it speaks truths on how long this has been ongoing.
I would personally love if Titans started to push more into a Tank class and pushed Warlocks into more of a Support role. There's nothing I love more than blocking/aggro-ing crazy amounts of damage as a Stronghold Titan.
warlocks deserve the capability to not just be support, as a warlock main the dynamics of many builds is something EVERY class deserves. Not really fair to basically assign warlocks to heal/buffer: everyone will just play hunter
@@shadowyblobfish9981 Have you played warlock recently? Speakers can heal and still put out crazy dps. There's no reason we can have classes have roles. 100s of other MMORPG do this.
@@shadowyblobfish9981 Battle healer? lol
@@shadowyblobfish9981 Most MMO RPGs have classes broken down into DPS, Support, and Tank. Most good MMO RPGs allow you to maybe dabble a bit in a secondary role as well. It is so clear that Bungie wanted to originally do that same thing with hunters being DPS, warlocks being support, and titans being tanks, but somewhere along they lost that. There is no issue with having each class have a main role that they fulfill best. It's called class identity, something this game has lost, and it has been worse for it.
@@shadowyblobfish9981 Someone has never familiarised themselves with the concept of the Cleric, it seems.
At the very least one really good thing they could do to help Titans is making the Thruster class ability work with more exotics, we have access to Hoarfrost, Horn, and Alpha Lupi, but NONE of them work with Thruster,
Ideas,
- Hoarfrost, Create a trail of ice along the path you dodge, (Bare-minimum, create a single crystal where you dodged from).
- Horn, Create a Trail of fire in the direction you dodge, (Bare-minimum, create a single trail that doesn't return to it's origin point).
- Alpha Lupi, make it work, only issue is that it'd become better Wormhusk crown since it heals in a radius.
I also realized while typing this that we Titans really are suffering, because I included 'Bare-minimum' options, realizing I'm willing to accept scraps at this point...
It also feels like a bit of a rip off with what they shared on the Class items, especially what we got from Warlocks,
Hunter,
- Assassins Cowl, nice to have decent access to invisibility, everybody does on Void though (removed healing + MAYBE removed extra invisibility duration when finishing/killing more powerful targets).
- Star-Eater Scales, basically required to balance the field between everyone, Warlocks had VERY few options to boost super damage, Titans always got a boost from Synthoceps, but not as huge. (Removed bonus energy from Orbs + Healing on super cast + Overshield on super cast with Max stacks)
Titan,
- Heart of Inmost Light, one of the best Exotics Titans have(No bonus ability damage)
- Synthoceps, another one of the best Exotics Titans have(No bonus super damage + no bonus to reload & handling)
Warlocks,
- Ophidian Aspect, why... the class item version is the worst Exotic perk in the game... (Removed reload speed boost + AE boost)
- Verity's Brow, nobody ever uses this, always been to much work for not enough payoff, the only reason it'll get use now is because it's paired with another Exotic. (Removed Grenade energy regen + regen for nearby allies)
Though I will say,
Titan is your least played class, so I do understand how you don't see some of the Aspect options making sense,
- Diamond Lance, the ONLY real option from Stasis, not enough crystal generation to justify Cryoclasm, and Howl of the Storm, while cool, would make Consecration stop working since the wave of fire doesn't break crystals. (Tectonic Harvest, or any Harvest perk for that matter, can't really leave Stasis)
- Knockout, Touch of Thunder pretty much has to stay on Arc, Juggernaut is the biggest piece of trash perk in the game, there was literally no other option (again)
- Unbreakable, New, so no other option (again, again). To be fair, Titans are also known as the tanks (granted other than Stronghold, not much tanking going on as a whole)
- Consecration, Roaring Flames + Knockout would probably break the game, Sunspots... while cool just aren't powerful enough, and without Consecration Titans wouldn't have a 'Cool animation' ability like Lightning Surge/Ascension, no other option (Do you see the theme on how they picked them yet?)
- Drenger's Lash, Banner of War would also probably break the game with Knockout/Roaring Flames, Flechette Storm would make every melee other than Frenzied blade worthless, Into the Fray doesn't do NEARLY enough, again, the only option.
EDIT: I did write this pretty early into the vid, seems you did see the theme lol/crying
I dont mind being the “melee class”, but it seems like everytime titans make a good melee build it gets nerfed :/ so Im getting mixed messages from Bungie here as to what they want me to do
If they don’t want me to be the melee class then give me some other strong identities. If they do want me to be the melee class, then I dont want to be punished for excelling at it.
I remember when Titan void was mostly focused on team based defence and support. It was perfectly fine back then but Bungie changed us to be entirely melee focused making our void irrelevant in the process. Ward of dawn used to survive whatever was thrown at it. As you would expect from a behemoth of a shield. Now a hunter can teleport, instakill everyone inside without going inside themselves, teleport away and still have a third of their super remaining. How did this happen? What about weapons of light? you know, the buff that was the exact same as a well, except you had a massive dome behind you if you needed to retreat. Where did that go? ah, they removed it because they could. We had an Identity with void and it was ripped from us for seemingly no reason other than to stop the pvp hunters from complaining because they were finding winning to be slightly too hard.
I say give us back our old defensive and supportive utilities, make anyone inside a bubble completely immune to anything on the outside and buff its health back to where it should be. In the current meta these changes wont effect anything negatively except capture point based pvp game modes, which a defence super should dominate anyway. All while making void titan more relevant in pve and pvp.
Banner titan had the Identity.
Dawn bubble did not.
@RurouniHiro Ward always had the identity. The stationary, unyielding, immovable object. A bulwark against the dark. A foul shell as Misraax called it. Ward arguably had the strongest identity along with golden gun at D1 release.
@@LawAbidingCat Yes, Ward was Iconic. But as bungie redefined Titans Class identitiy away from "Rallying point" to melee-Brawler, it didnt fit anymore, hence the Buff. im convinced they would have removed Ward of Dawn by now, if it werent for its Iconic status, so they just nerfed it into irrelevancy.
@@centimanj8916 I agree! And that's what I mean, Titans should be the rally point, the unrelenting force or the immovable object. Its just unfortunate that bungie doesn't want us to do either
Be radical :
Get DR every time you punch something.
Get DR every time you use abilities.
Do more damage with heavy weapons and shotgun
Heavy ammo finder intrinsic to Titans. (special intrinsic when shotgun equiped)
Cytan intrinsic to Titan ... and inside the Bubble too. LET ME SHOOT THROUGH MY BARRIERS DAMMIT!
Bubble stays up when you die.
Or just make it so that defensive Buffs like Void Overshield, Woven Mail and Frost Armor are just more effective when aplyed to Titans. If Warlocks can have unique Interactions with Threadlings without the Need of an Aspect, then Tians can have some intrinsic benefit too
Thanks for the informative video, I personally feel happy with the way I play Titan but i definitely see and feel how far behind titans are compared to the other two. The scorch and ignition idea is sick that would really give titans the solar class and identity. Great job on the video
Titan main here, I do agree with some of your points and ideas for build change suggestions. I think one thing that Bungie and a lot of other people forget is that titans aren't *just* the Warrior/Paladin/Barbarian class. Lore-wise, Titans are master tacticians. Four orders of titans almost single-handedly defended the last city from waves of countless fallen on multiple goddamn fronts. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that us titans did that mainly by punching.
Overall, I think Void Solar and Strand are in relatively good spots, they just need some buffs. the three of them for the most part have unique interactions between their various aspects that can lead to different flavors of playstyle (such as Controlled Demo making Offensive Bulwark punches apply volatile, or Roaring Flames punches making sunspots on kill with Sol Invictus), I just think they need to be buffed a bit. Void needs more consistent access to overshield, Solar could really use another active aspect besides consecration, and I think generally Strand is in an okay spot and fills the titan identity pretty well.
Arc and Strand both could use some significant help. Arc lacks the unique buildcrafting interactions that the Void, Solar and Strand has. It essentially just asks you "Grenade, Melee, or class ability. Pick two that you like." The aspects have no interactions between each other leaving Arc to feel incredibly disjointed. Arc's issues as a whole amongst all three classes only make the issues worse.
Stasis is my favorite subclass and I don't think the stasis rework was very kind to it. Despite being the "punchy tank class" there are only two ways to get Frost Armor currently and both have issues. The heal provided by stasis shards isn't nearly enough to make a difference, and the best ways to deal damage on Stasis (I.E. Crystal spam) actively grief your team by blocking line of sight and have atrocious screenshake to allies. Stasis as a whole is meant to be about control. A Stasis titan to me should ask the question "What would A Warrior/Soldier/Tactician do with absolute control of themselves, their opponents, and the battlefield." I think Diamond lance is a pretty good representation of that; providing allies with a cheap way to debuff opponents. Howl of the storm fits that as well, molding the battlefield while debuffing opponents. Tectonic Harvest does give some sort of buff to allies, but that's shackled by the fact that all 3 of the classes effectively have the same aspect with minor differences. lastly, no offensive to speed behemoths, but I really don't think Cryoclasm fits into the core theme of stasis. I think a cryoclasm-like ability would fit way better on arc than it would on stasis as arc is meant to be all about movement. If we were to have a mass-shatter effect, I think giving Howl a second slam like consecration would be much more thematic.
I'm glad that Bungie seems to be planning to give Titan a touch up. Right now I'm wondering what's the point of a having a Wall when the Darkness has been defeated by a few dozen hunters running around with golden guns.
An idea for Mask of the Quiet One, more akin to it’s current identity (on top of what it does currently):
Taking damage matching your super grants elemental munitions. When critically wounded kills grants elemental buffs (dependent on equipped super) and Enraged (buffs any damage by 15%).
Void: Volatile Rounds/Overshield
Solar: Scorching Rounds/Restoration x2
Arc: Voltshot/Generic DR
Stasis: Slow Rounds (not chill clip)/Frost Armor x2
Strand: Unraveling Rounds/Woven Mail
I like where this is going.
When I think about the mask of the quiet one fantasy, I see the embodiment of a horror movie villain. You can drown him, burn him, unload a whole mag into him, but he just keeps walking towards you... menacingly.
I think the elemental effects are a good idea, but it's too generic for the exotic's identity, and in some cases, maybe a little too strong.
I'm really digging the idea of a "silent rage" type effect. A generic damage buff is nice but I think we can get more creative. What if as you got more rage, it empowered your finishers, granting you full health/ shields and granting meatier chunks of ability energy.
(I imagine theres some overlap with one eyed mask here, but OEM works in pvp, this would not since it requires finishers.)
@@igotbronze2742 I like the idea of empowering finishers but is this the only benefit? I'm not sure if health and ability energy are enough to carry through.
What if Enraged had a meter (similar to Wormgods) where you build up charge by taking damage. Each tick gets you more damage (weapon and ability) and energy regen but you can expend x3 stacks with empowered finishers, granting full health and shields. At critical health you gain full stacks.
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |5 | 6 | 7
3%|5%|7%|10%|15%|20%|25% (PVE)
would be a super interesting build, but would fall apart in high end stuff, maybe adding some kind of increasing DR the lower you get or a guaranteed live on like 5 hp on a CD. Would be a nightmare balancing that addition in pvp though
@@CatWithThumb Same here, I'd probably have it where each tier of enraged grants x1 DR; the max being x7
When I think of Titans I think of D1 bubble, standing in the center of a boss room, completely safe, punching out the thrall and then leaving the bubble with OS and damage buff and killing the boss.
With well nerfed, I'd like to see Titan be steered in the class identity direction of team overshield and damage buff as well as strong melees. That's what I see in lore, it is unique to the other classes with Well gone, and it doesnt step that far away from existing abilities that have made the titan the "melee" class.
I'd like to see Banner of War be passively applied to the Titan and allow the Titan to have gun up. I'd like to see stronger benefits to planting sunspots on teammates and bosses. I'd like to see things that ONLY the Titan can bring to the table. Even if it results in just 1 of 6 raiders being a titan, that's better than 1%
22:00 _Yes, PLEASE!_ This would be such a good change - I will add, though, that I'm pretty sure the retaliation blast _did_ seem to inflict Weaken with Echo of Undermining when I played with it on Void. At first, I thought it _was_ Suppressing when I had on a Suppressor Grenade, but it just "disorients" on direct shield contact. Also, Banner Shield (Sentinel guard) _does_ give one of the highest buffs in the whole game at 40%, last I was aware.. but people _still_ don't use it.
24:20 I have an idea for a Strand synergy that wouldn't be _too_ broken on Banner of War: make it _refresh_ the uptime of Woven Mail to (up to) max on each pulse - not grant it, just refresh it if you have it. This leans into the arguable Berserker identity of "the Woven Mail bois" pretty well while also not breaking PvP much, if at all.
-From, a Titan main since D1 HoW.
Mesome, you are so smart! Analyzing all of that takes hard work and skills in finding stuff like that. I think You’d be a really good game development manager because you understand game development, synergies, and uniqueness really well. As well as understanding the player base. I enjoy coming back to your channel for you and your team!
I always wished that class focused armor stats (mobility, resilience and recovery) had some bonus functionality for their respective class.
Hunters cause enemies to miss more often at higher levels of mobility more so when sprinting.
Titans get the old levels of damage resistance (40% at max stacks) and at max level kills refill health (not shields).
Warlock having high recovery allows some level of health regen through damage. This would need to be fairly low amount of healing to not be broken but would provide a nice bonus for a start that is often neglected.
The new void aspect is something I would like to see titans built around more. Get some damage reduction then deal more damage for the more you take.
Also the strand aspect where destroying a tangle grabts woven mail to allies feels like a long overdue ability that I hope we see more of.
I'd like to see it offer a bit more team utility. The general feel of the aspect is perfect as far as Titan's identity goes: jump in front your team, pop up a shield and tank for a few seconds. Quite possibly the most Titan-esque titan aspect there is besides maybe Banner of War. But at the end when it blasts the enemies, it should give teammates that are behind/near you overshields as well. If they could introduce an aggro mechanic where enemies within a certain cone in front of you are forced to attack only your shield then it would be near perfect, allowing you to actually pull a group of enemies' fire away from your team.
In some way, the Titan problem mirrors the original Torbjorn problem of OW1.
The game is too fast paced and DPS dependent to sit in one place unless there is a key objective that needs to be protected.
It might have a similar solution.
For Torbjorn, the fix was to change how his kit worked. Originally it was centered around slowly building and upgrading a single sentry gun to offset his own middling damage. Devs and players discovered that the downtime between fights, whether the fight was a win or not, felt unproductive.
If the fight was won, your time as the Torbjorn was spent re-armoring your teammates and repairing your turret. If it was lost, it was the same, except you had to build up your turret to level 3 again.
Instead, they changed his kit, removing the armor benefits but allowing him to throw out a sentry at any time. This meant in general, he was a much more mobile threat, able to supplement his DPS at a moment’s notice, rather than be tied to the Area of Denial the turret provided.
For Titan, the barricade as a class ability seems to provide the same limitation. Gone are the days of close quarters maps and chokeholds that benefit from being closed off. With how mobile all classes are, it makes no sense to invest in a single entrance when most enemies have a way through or around your barricade.
Of course, there are perks and exotics that benefit from standing your ground. From using your shield offensively, setting enemies on fire, suspending or blinding them.
But overall, the action of performing your class ability informs how you should play your kit. For hunters, it’s to take corners and dodge out of the way after the opportunity is gone. For warlocks, it’s to provide a moment of respite, with most extra benefits happening at the moment of cast rather than gained from idling. For Titan, your goal is to stay still. This of course doesn’t mesh with the “punch everything” approach that Titan wants to have.
What I suggest, is to lean into the other aspect that Titans are always depicted to have: Leadership and a war cry. With the introduction of strand came the Banner aspect for Titan, an idea of a mobile AoE buff. I would like a banner to replace the barricade.
Functionally, this would be to lay down a banner or class specific marker that either provided buffs to a region, or functioned like an armor pack that would allow teammates to withdraw a buff or throwable from. This would align Titan with the historically similar ways that Hunter and Warlock have been able to provide utility with their class abilities. Additionally, it would provide the individual subclasses of Titan their own individual identity of how aggressive or defensive they could play.
Examples would be:
Solar: slamming a giant burning maul onto the ground, providing Radiance in an AoE similar to bubble or Scorching enemies that get close to it.
- Leans into utility aspect of Keywords associated with Solar that don’t overlap with Hunter or Warlock
- Kephrii’s horn would in essence become a single heavy swing of the super.
Arc: Slamming a fist into the ground, making a Jolting aftershock for enemies or blinding them
- Make Arc your hyper offensive selfishly aggressive kit, where your class ability can be used while surrounded by enemies, rather than from a distance
Void: Slam a shield into the ground granting the void overshield as well as providing the original barricade
- Make Void the purely defensive subclass, focused on overshields and standing your ground
Stasis: Slam a pickaxe into the ground, creating a localized Duskfield or allowing for teammates to pick up diamond lances from the impact spot.
- Focuses on making Stasis provide close range utility to synergize better with Behemoth
Strand: Plant the banner from the aspect, providing the same benefits, but allow the titan to pick up the banner as well, using it as a weapon, or its original purpose as a recovery generator
- Possibly provides extra benefit if in red health
In general, I believe that a lot of the strength of the classes comes from what they can do during the downtime between the big flashy stuff. This hypothetical is to make it so a Titan feels like they can make an impact without shortening the overall time between supers.
With the recent kits (strand and prismatic), i believe they were trying to get titans to be defensive powerhouses that forced space through crowd control. This is typically seen through the prismatic class. The thunder punch and consecration were aoe dmg moves buffed by knockout, giving health regen and amplified on kills with the unbreakable aspect for sticky situations. While Drengrs Lash gave suspend one of the best ccs in the game while Ice Lance gave a repeat freeze for a more offence approach
A shame that they nerfed all said CC's because they were problematic in the past. Honestly I kinda miss the old subclass models where certain classes specialised in certain things. Thats still the case but less so, imagine only titan has access to shackles, you could have the CC be their sole focus and keep it a little stronger because it isnt so easy to access for everyone. Could let bungie make certain classes be really really good at that one thing and truly build a fantasy around it, as opposed to rn where every class ends up running the same fragments anyway unless you have really specific builds in mind
What about prismatic titan is a "defensive powerhouse"? it didnt get a single one of the aspects that make the only usable subclasses (for their survivability) on it. its literally not worth using lol
Great video!!
I’m a Titan 80%er like you are a Warlock.
The lack of dev creativity spent towards Titan kits over the last three expansions is a key reason we are at this point.
I think an easy thing they could do to help Titans immediately are major reductions to base ability cooldowns. HoiL period of Void and Arc during WQ had an actual satisfying ability loop.
The base cooldown of the Frenzied Blade is almost 3 minutes on Prismatic… 3 minutes!!!
I also think the choice for the exotic class item for Titans were made while drunk… giving all the other classes Synthos and HoiL (the best Titan exotics) without anything close to reciprocity.
Honestly loved this video. The discussion of each subclass’ theme, the redesign of the abilities. I’d like this for the other classes if possible
This is an amazing video thank you!!
This is a fantastic essay on the state of titans. Thanks for putting the time in.
The identity I always gave titans was like a paladin from DnD. Heavy hitter that can take a lot of heavy hits. As a titan main I enjoy the clas most when playing void and being the void overwhelm guy people can rally to when they need protection, then taking that defensive power and returning it to the enemies. I want titans to feel like the commanders of a battlefield. A place your fireteam can group together and get behind knowing they're safe for some time behind a barricade, wall of stasis crystals, void overshield, etc. I don't know how to translate that to gameplay but that's what I want to feel like
As a titan main who plays the other classes but mostly titan, iv seen this coming a while now. there's a lot of problems with the titan class, mostly the fact that its been devolved into just the melee class. the shift to more flying or far away bosses seems counterintuitive if were building encounters for all classes to be viable in them, especially the class that needs to punch them to be worthwhile. Prismatic titan has been a massive pain point since the final shape dropped, and i knew it was going to be underpowered seeing the selection of aspects and abilities when they first revealed them. I'm not going to go into prismatic titan as everyone knows what makes them bad and the monotony of buildcrafting them (i.e. Consecration, frenzy blade, knockout). However i feel like Prismatic kinda is the culmination of all the cracks that titan has been getting in the last few years. There's no survivability, no benefits to weapon gameplay, no ability buffs, transcendence gives us a disappointing grenade that consecration can do its job easier, long cooldowns, and a pitiful selection of exotic class item choices. I remember the big draw that a lot of content creators were saying is "unlimited buildcrafting potential", where is it? Titans struggle, playing titans in higher end content is an uphill battle. I'm not touching on PVP since that's where titans can compete, but even there in the last few weeks the dominant class/subclass has been prismatic hunter making up more that 40% of all the players in trials. i'm hoping what bungie have planned for titan is substantial, i don't want another " were buffing shiver strike" and just change some numbers. This needs to be more, titans are an identity crisis and bungie needs to figure out what they want us to be.
This is a phenomenal video. Love the discussion and appreciate it deeply
To me the only recognizable goal of Prismatic titan is Crowd control, using things like Shackle Grenade and Diamond Lance to keep enemies still, and then possibly follow it with a Thunderclab, but that just feels like. They don't go far enough into it.
Don't worry they will potentially buff titans... only for streamers to cry about it and titans are once again at the bottom
well yeah, gotta penalize us in PVE today for all those times we used to be able to slide into a fusion rifle shoulder charge
Salta STILL wants resilience nerfed even harder. If it gets lowered much more it'll just become a dead stat like it was before. Each classes main stats also need a rework make resilience only grant DR to titans, make mobility grant a big buff to reload speed only for hunters and make warlocks get more health from resto and cure with higher recovery.
@@judgementkazzy7172 who is that?
@@Lord-Connor7683 Saltagreppo.
Honestly, once I got a HoIL/Star Eaters class item, things have felt pretty good with the addition of the Void Axes. Consecration for ad-clear and then Void Axe, Stasis Super, Thunder Crash for boss damage. Knockout increases Consecration damage and heals you on any melee. It's hoenstly really good.
That came out after World's First.
Most of the Day One problem was actually Still Hunt working with Nighthawk.
I got that drop I gotta try it out.
It should be noted that the woven mail on orb pickup fragments only give 5 seconds of the buff, whilst the Into The Fray gives it for 10. On that note I think into the fray should extend the duration of Woven Mail on melee kills by around 5 seconds, up to 15.
Thank you, content creators for making our voicesloud and clear.
You and several others are bringing this up, and i can't thank you enough that, i do know that Titan state is a hot topic within bungie right now, but we should be vocal about it.
as for my adiea what titan are or should be, let it be the paladins of the Vanguard, Banner of war is my fundation idea for that, aura stuff, to buff our allies, and ourselves.
Hope Titian get a big shake up bc it’s felt kinda ehh for awhile. The only thing that has been really good was strand Titian, idk though maybe im wrong. But every other build feels mid on Titian and it feels so bland 🤷♂️
Titans definitely need a range super that they can use over time or in one go. A mini gun would have been awesome. Especially if the element surge would work with it.
Here's what I think Titans should be; an actual tank class. More abilities around building survivability and drawing agro instead of trying to balance damage output with survivability. Now in the current meta, survivability and damage output are currently the same thing; kill them before they kill you. But if Bungie starts introducing more mechanics that mean we can't just instantly kill everything, like requiring a certain amount of enemies in a location to unlock a door for example, then the meta shifts; actual damage resistance and buffs suddenly become much more important than just damage output. It gives Titans a crucial role on the battlefield instead of their current struggling class identity issue.
the thing with how current tank stuff with titan is setup, you get tankiness at the cost of all damage (towering barricade and ward of dawn). also these two things are completely unnecessary if you instead choose to play round cover and in high tier content stepping out of either of them gets you blown up. I think the idea of the unbreakable aspect is kind of a step in the right direction, being able to essentially counterattack, its just horrible to build around or synergise with because you wont get enough grenade uptime for it to ever be worthwhile. having access to better resists and sharing them would be a good idea (banner of war fits this super well especially with healing to keep aggro draw, shame they nerfed it). it'd be super interesting to perhaps see a mechanic in future focused around keeping and rotating aggro, but it could be something titan specialises in if they find a way to up titan survivability to really play into some kind of tank role. could even be titan can survive enough to not have to rotate aggro draw but maybe at that point its stepping too close to MMORPG kind of aggro and raid mechanics. but pulling ideas from there wouldnt be a bad idea
I slightly disagree, i should be more forcing to have a varaity of classes in a team. Means, if Hunter play like the GOD damage output, thats fine. But they should have 0 resiliance. So that every playstyle you chose should be more forcing in a direction. Allowing more individual builds, playstyles and wombo combos.
Titan main here. Loved this vid man, thanks for spreading awareness. I particularly liked your suggested buffs for all of our exotics. Here's hoping Bungie takes some of these suggestions seriously.
I keep making comments about ideas for Titans on this video because this is the content that has been needed.
I have a few more ideas for solar and void, mainly because these were removed from the game with the introduction of the 3.0 subclasses.
Void: Give Bubble back the 35% buff. It can stay on Helm of Saint-14, although at the same time, I would want it to have another buff for a neutral game or a way to get bubble back faster somehow.
Solar: Add a new verb: Melting. This is to return Melting Point into the game, but with a few changes to make it distinct.
Melting would be found on Hammer Strike, Roaring Flames, Ember of Tempering, and a new fragment, Ember of Heat.
Melting would apply a 10% weakening debuff for 5 seconds, which, if you have 3 stacks of Tempering, gets increased to 15 seconds. If you have 3 Stacks of Roaring Flames, the debuff can be buffed to a max of 20% (an extra 5% at 1 stack, an extra 2.5 for the other 2 stacks). Roaring Flames x3 also makes every solar ability apply melting 20%. Hammer Strike would apply the base 10% but would increase to 25% with 3x Roaring Flames. Ember of Heat would allow any Melee to apply this debuff.
Hammer Strike will also now ignite targets on hit rather than kill.
The debuff % for Melting might be too strong, but I just want something like MP back because if that, along with Bubble's 35% were still here, it would still give Titans a spot in the meta game. They might not have a huge slice of pie like that piechart had for Hunters, but they would share one the size of the warlocks at the least.
Will add on to changes made to this comment below.
Edit: Added a buff to Hammer Strike I forgot about.
Edit 2: Made a change to melting, so it's not tractor cannon Strong unless you're using Hammer Strike.
Edit 3: Ember of Heat is too hot IMO and needs a cooldown. Giving it a 20-second cooldown, as well as only 15 seconds of debuff with Tempering rather than the initial 20. This cooldown also applies to the mini hammer, so unless you're refreshing Roaring Flames, you only get one use with Mini Hammer. Can still be refreshed with other Solar abilities.
Edit 4: Rather than a flat 20 second cooldown with Mini hammers, it will scale with the enemy type, and will only apply if hitting the same enemy.
For the scaling:
0 Seconds of cooldown upon hitting a minor
2 Seconds upon hitting an elite
5 seconds upon hitting an Ultra
20 seconds upon hitting a boss.
The reason for such a massive change is because red bars will probably die in one Hammer hit, Elites will probably take 2-3 hammers
Ultras like champs will take longer to kill, but can still die in that 5 second window, or longer
20 seconds for the boss is because of raid bosses.
The real question is, how much will the other classes complain if they feel like Titans are taking attention away from what they want.
Not much if they're actually useful.
@@okamiexe1501 dude they're complaining that any attention is being brought to this now because "BOW synthos is broken". People play so little titan they don't realize how watered down Titan has become
Oh they’ll complain like it’s no body’s business.
Hunters with never not fucking complain
I’ve been playing for 3 years, 90% of my playtime is on titan and this is the ONLY TIME I’ve fully abandoned the class. I played it for a week at the final shape, and I’ve been playing warlock since. Nothing in the titan class synergies with each other, all the titan has are neat but gimmicky and are either too strong or weak. Titans are just so unfocused when it comes to subclass verbs it’s just difficult to make a good build.
Hunter and warlock subclasses are also unique from each other, allowing hunters to play into almost any play style, while titans are all melee focused.
@@user-yw4mf6pn8dand just... worse at melee than hunter builds. Combination/gambler arc hunter gets full health/melee back every kill, throwing knife can be used basically forever, rope dart will kill a whole room and then restore itself if you ace the quicktime event, even shuriken which is the weakest causes slow x50 which is huge. Shield throw gives +10 hp *if* it hits anything at all, frenzied still just misses 90% of the time, shiver strike is still bugged to sometimes do no damage and pushes enemies out of followup range (as are every shoulder charge flavor), hammer has a massive cooldown on pickup (and does very little damage since it can't crit). Honestly I just want my defensive strike back. Just a basic melee attack that gives a full overshield on kill, no fancy activation, no bonus damage, just functional.
@@alext9550how in the world does Shield Throw not work like Rope Dart at this point? There is like no way to loop it in a satisfying way and the damage is still awful. It doesn’t even kill red bars outside of patrol half the time.
@@InsightfulAU true titans are weak and I am a titan main lol.
@@InsightfulAU What hurts the most is when you actually get a kill with its terrible tracking, you can't even keep offensive bulwark up (which to me is the core of void titan) because the over Sheild is just obliterated. It's not only that titans struggle to consistently get over shields, heck it's easier to get woven mail, it's also partly over Sheilds are just not very good at a base level. Whenever I get an oversheild I hide to get my grenade back, IT SHOULD BE THE OPPOSITE.
Solid talking points and well thought out! I disagree with the notion that titans simply lose across the board in every subclass, though. Especially with both solar and strand titans being staples across the game for strong and consistent survivability.
I'm glad you made this video I have been telling my friends this for a long time and they just laugh at me the Titan doesn't have any D2 magic
I want to quickly point out that the 1% titan usage for day one was specifically for the witness kill... almost every single team had 1 or 2 titans for all the other encounters, but swapped to hunters for the witness fight since celestial hunters with still hunt is so strong for long range damage phases (regardless of time length)
Extra thought lol...
Now that the exotic class items have come out it has pushed hunters even further ahead of the other classes, especially titan. The most obvious example being grapple melee spam stronger than pre-nerf banner of war titans ever could have been
Still no, the total amount of titans that ever played in worlds first still only amounted to a grand total of 18, out of I think 300 or something like that
@@AlexanderAF31no that’s just untrue so many of the top players were using titans throughout the other encounters
I find it telling that after all the detail he goes into someone is still in the comments quibbling numbers. It’s 3% not 1% like that’s not still damning numbers.
@AlexanderAF31 this is just wrong lmao. Quick look through raid report and I counted at least 20 in the first 50 teams... and that was without checking the previous instances, since a large percentage of those were checkpoints...
Most teams in the top 100 that I did check for previous instances had their witness kill in a separate instance (labeled as a checkpoint) and when looking back at their other instances in the raid, every single one had 1 or 2 titans (ignoring ones with little to no kills or deaths for cp swapping)
From destiny 1 to destiny 2 I won’t give up on my titan. Also if people in pvp could 1ko a bubble in pvp with a shotgun we should be able to shoot from inside to hit outside targets. *edit* Also knockout is my only form of healing for prismatic
True
Genuinely well spoken on all counts. I've been a Titan main since I started playing during Arrivals, and I felt like this discussion was very helpful. I'll put my two cents in on things that stuck out to me relative to my own play experience. I can't remember all the changes you suggested off the top of my head, but I definitely think that in the case of Falling Star and Abeyant those should just be normal parts of the subclass; Strand Titan should have more ways to supply Woven Mail and support the team in endgame content, giving a bit of breathing room in things like Witness DPS phase. I definitely agree that HOIL would feel much cleaner if it was just ability regen instead of damage boosting, most of the time I'm not using it to boost my grenade or melee damage, I'm just using it to get my abilities recharged faster. I'll admit I don't know what to think about changes like your suggestions to Thunderclap, because that can get very silly with certain builds, especially if your Skullfort suggestion went through. Flechette Storm is something to be careful of; that Wishful Ignorance exotic lets you chain anywhere from 10 to 50 flechette hits. Offensive Bulwark definitely needs a linger to it; Devour refreshes on a kill even when you're at low hp, and Repulsor Brace easily gives shields to other classes. Heck, I'd actually be bold enough to say Repulsor Brace gets removed so Titan can give out more overshields and have a stronger niche. I say this even when I use Repulsor Brace weapons for both Gyrfalcon's and Briarbinds builds, and I frequently use those when playing the other two classes. It's absolutely criminal what they've done to Striker, and Sunbreaker has been taken out back so many times I wonder if it still has a head or neck. I think that Bungie needs to pull Titans back in, or they'll lose a significant amount of the playerbase... well, maybe only 3%. Bungie is making it more and more difficult to be in melee (sometimes downright impossible in parts of The Final Shape campaign and raid) and I think you gave a lot of great suggestions to help Titans escape that overly specific niche.
Bro you always have the most creative ideas on how to fix our abilities and weapons
Lowkey I thought the background was a comically large titan shoulder
I've been a proud titan since Destiny 1's Xbox 360 beta. I loved being this spartan but with space magic! I know we were always the lowest played class, but I never found it to be weak. But now? I have my doubts.
Every subclass feels like a shell of its former self, too weak to compete, or just straight up useless in boss encounters. Fuck, do I even dare touch bubble titan? Ward was always second to well. Now it's just GONE. Only Titan that can make up for that is Saint himself.
Since Banner of War got kind of just shot in the back of the head, the closest I ever feel to getting the true "Titan experience" is this Stronghold build I've been running that feels so close to achieving that "You're up against the wall and I AM THE F'ING WALL" identity that I've been searching for.
This video is EXCELLENT. Great analysis.
I don't know who it was, but a while back I saw a video explaining Borderlands classes. One quote I remember was describing Roland as "[he] can just pick up a gun and already be better with it than anyone else, with his skills". I've never known Titans to feel particularly ability-centric; I wonder if they couldn't lean harder into a weapon-centric identity. It'd give them a heck of a place without having to completely rework their existing (granted, faulty) identity. Light-forged super-soldiers; isn't that what they were always supposed to be?
im so happy somebody is finally talking a bout the class identity crisis that has been a problem since d1 Imo, it isn't just a titan problem either all the classes feel like they are loosing identity in favor of admittingly cool abilities/gear, it feels wrong that the playstyles have nothing to do with
identity anymore and its weird how they try and play the same way sometimes.
I agree with this (I'm not a Titan main but I do like my consecrating titan shenanigans), and I would also add this: Give the Darkness Titans (and the other classes too, really) new abilities, especially Stasis. We had Stasis for four years now, they deserve a new super and a new melee already, to shake up a bit the variety of builds.
I also think part of the problem is that one core idea of the Titan is that they are this "melee tank", and Destiny as a game is not really friendly to melee or to tank... Also the exotics! My gods, there are so many terrible exotics for Titan, I could make a list of all the ones I would love to change but it would be too long for a comment here D:
Great analysis and imaginative suggestions
After i saw this video, i checked my time on all three classes. And, I had around 2k hours on Hunter, over 1k hours on Warlock, then... barley over 300 hours on Titan.😢😮
Problem is, Titan's aspects don't provide any sort of utility like the other class prismatic aspects do. Devour can help with survivability and grenade regen, and Stylish Executioner can help with survivability (extremely so since prismatic Hunter is super focused around debuffs), but for utility Titan gets...a slight heal when killing an enemy with melee? Triple consecrations is a fun novelty but quickly runs out of purpose when you, inevitably, run out of melee charges unless you lean full throttle into getting transcendence as often as possible.
This is a problem with prismatic in itself, but further increased with Titan's lackluster toolkit. The ratio between utility and ability aspects is too teetered towards ability casts (literally 1:5), and abilities aren't easy to build around, especially when you don't have fragments that play with subverbs. If we had more utility aspects, like Sol Invictus, Into the Fray, or Offensive Bulwark just to name a few for Titan, the class would have much more power behind it.
I think the only change I disagree with is getting rid of amplified on double arc kills. I think titan needs love but it think Warlock runs into an issue on arc where half their kit deactivates if they don't have a fast track to amplified besides I think arc in general could use some love
While I can't comment on your proposals, I found your analysis of the problem very well done.
It's truly wonderful to see this getting more attention. I remember the days when rally barricades reloaded weapons. They were basically mandatory. Since that change, I rarely used it, and since thruster? Welp. Please, let me be the wall I always wanted to be!
I will note that some of the new stuff is AWESOME. Love Unbreakable (it's perfect), Love Twilight Arsenal (perfect too), and Hazardous Propulsion is pretty damn cool.