Now the Cyclone kills the Probe even faster, nice. That's fun, I felt Probes were a bit too effective against Cyclones tbh. Not to mention also buffed versus Sentry, Phoenix and Observer since those are mechanical light units too.
You got a point, I propose making all Terran units 1 hp 1 dmg, but the ghost has emp on autocast, zero energy cost, 25 range aoe, no friendly fire and it does hp damage on top of shield damage. You know, because you don't want any other unit or viable fighting strategy vs protoss
@@hentaidude666 you're strawmanning. no one is concerned that terran has another option just as good as bio in pvt. what they are concerned is it's so powerful that it can do a build that toss can't possibly defend much like stephano's max roach that won him championships. he worked out a mathematical build and timing that allowed him to A move to championship, making the game incredibly boring.
@@nguquaxanguyen5224 But none of the mentioned units are what we would consider counters to Cyclone. Sentrys and Observers won't be pitted against Cyclones. Phoenixes might be relevant, but not as a core interaction.
Not surprised with the nerf. I think the speed nerf opens more counter play, but these changes are not well thought out, much like the previous ones. Okay mechanical, so it doesn't impact zerg, also static defense isn't impacted now...but this actually is worse for protoss, which with the previous iteration left the question "What do protoss build? Cyclone counters everything?" With these changes the question is "I was wrong, it turns out you could make cyclones counter even more protoss units!!" This change created more issues against Toss. Mechanical means ALL toss air units in additional to the armored units. So bye phoenix's. So you basically just removed protoss air play from the terran match up. The units that cyclone doesn't counter with damage buffs, they already countered with mobility (zealots, archons, adepts, and templars). So the question for the balancers has remained the same regarding protoss. What do they expect protoss to build against cyclones? As it stands I still see this change resulting in Terran builds 20 cyclones then basically a-moves the protoss base, and they probably can win a lot of the time. I like the suggestion of making them light, at least this presents some clear possible counters to them, it addresses the competing with stalker issue, while also creating possibilities of adepts actually maybe being a unit. Plus it won't heavily impact many of the other match ups. I do think there is a place for units that can move and shoot, but there needs to be an opportunity cost to it. Old cyclone the opportunity cost was that it was a shit unit with a niche role. I think the solution for the new one is to add opportunity costs into the first suggested change. 1) Reduce lock-on targeting to range 5, reduce tether range to 7. 2) Add an upgrade that requires the armory that increases lock-on targeting to 6 (current changed range) and tethering to 9 (current change range). By doing this early game you force the cyclones into taking more damage if they want to move and shoot vs more ranged units (queen range is 5 for example), you don't punish aggressive cyclone play (pushing into stalkers), and you still give them the ability to not get steam rolled by melee by moving and shooting vs close targets. But you have increased the micro demand, you have put the cyclones at more risk early, and by reducing the tether range to 7, you allow static defenses to be a potential defensive counter. But you maintain the range which is important and didn't feel that bad in the mid game, by having an upgrade that requires some investment. Armory is an investment in both early resources and time, so cyclones won't be as oppressive as they are right now in the first couple minutes, it won't really punish mech players, but it also will still allow for a more bio oriented transition at that point. So as midgame approaches and through midgame you essentially have the current cyclones, which feel closer to decent to play against.
If Cyclones slowed down while locked on, Adepts might be the unit of choice on the ground, with Oracles or Phoenix in the air. It's not the worst idea I have heard. I too would like to see Adepts being utilized.
I think not having the lock-on while moving aspect for the cyclone would basically remove it's unique identity and cool thing, but you did say you want it to just be the mech version of a marine. If they do go the way you proposed, I think they should make the model smaller as well.
So make Lock-on a techlab upgrade instead of being an off the line feature. This way you can get Lock-On but at the cost of a few early clones that you would've reactored out.
Blizzard tried that, removing the lock on and making it like a marine. It was stupid and simple and I am glad they reverted it. I really don't think the patch should make another mass produced unit. I really like the current version.
Terran doesn't have a mech unit to trade against immortal. "Too good" I doubt, but "somewhat better" yea. With 120 health, light tag, immortal would still 3 shot it.
It would. Oracles, Phoenixes, and Adepts would be the Protoss counter units at that point... all of which are garbage, gimmicky short ranged units. On the ground Protoss would be in a lot of trouble; they would be forced to go air. As usual.
You nailed it on what the problems are. They’re rehashing old stuff and blizzard did the same saying it was for tvp mech but it was trash for that and really annoying as Zerg for bits here and there when you can never catch them when they come out. The light tag might be the best suggestion I’ve heard yet.
If the Cyclone becomes a light unit, Protoss would have no cost efficient counter on the ground aside from Adepts and Chargelots, both of which would have some major issues vs the kiting. Additionally, Charge is too late to counter early reactor Cyclone pushes. Protoss would need to go air to counter this.
Shooting and moving is neccesary for cyclone to work. However I get your point about it beeing imbalanced against zerg and cyclone should have a coldown of ex. 2 sec. in order to activate new lock-on when the first one that is interupted (by kiling unit/ moving out of range). This red lasers that appeared on cyclone when mag-field was reaserched could be an indicator of lock-on beeing redy.
Seems reasonable, I would like it if they made the cyclone a light unit and possibly a little smaller so that it can be packed more densely, not too much, but maybe around 20%. I'm not sure the lock on make much sense with the way it operates, unless maybe lock on actually slows the cyclone just a bit while in lock mode, otherwise this seems like a very tough balancing act.
On the Hellbat change remember, every time they reduce a unit's damage vs light you are buffing marines, this is what the Terran Mafia doesn't want you to know (also re the Baneling change) You can't make a Protoss' counter to Cyclone a Robo unit, especially when you can reactor out Cyclone as Toss are basically always going Stargate first. I will once again propose, make Lock-On the upgrade on the techlab instead of speed, then maybe buff the Cyclone's speed to counteract that. The issue is if Stalkers don't trade favorably against Cyclone's proxy factories with reactored clones will dominate TvP and will easily destroy Protoss within the first 6 or so minutes.
The cyclone should be a main army unit. Turning it from a specialized unit, into a weak main army unit, into a strong main army unit, into another specialized unit is moving backwards. It should be good against armored units. Not "protoss". Giving it "light" is also not a sensible fix. Bio has Marauders, Toss has stalkers, Zerg roaches. Mech would have ... nothing armored untill you get thors (I don't count siege tanks, if they get attacked: you messed up). Making it similar to the marine is a good idea. As in: One upgrade should provide a damage increase the other not. My solution: Base damage 11 + 2 against armored. (Upgrades add +1 dmg +0 Anti Armor) Upgrade 1: Speed + Lockon. Upgrade 2 (Requires Fusion Core): Armor penetration. Auto attacks ignore armor while locked on. (This is why the damage is being adjusted back down) That way it is okay early on. Falls off for a bit as armor upgrades get introduced and then becomes very powerfull in the lategame. It also negates the design flaw of being a fast attacking (Thus weak against large armored targets), slow missle (thus overkilling on small targets) unit. And you can seperately ballance the early game and lategame for the same unit.
I think that the cyclone should not be filling the role of 'stalker killer'. First off, the stalker already has a lot of counters - stim marines, marauders with or without stim, tanks, ghosts, liberators, thors... like, the stalker already falls off sooo so quickly in TvP, we don't need another thing to kill them. Yes I understand mech is in a weird state vs Protoss right now but why are we adding another counter to the stalker of all things? It would just make stalkers completely irrelevant, you'd be getting rid of the only really viable gateway unit which isn't even good into the late game. The whole point of the balance patch was to make the Protoss midgame vs Terran a bit easier, not counter literally the only viable unit to have at the 4 min mark. And no, the immortal doesn't qualify as a 'counter' as the lockon will outrange and kite. You've also got to consider not just at the highest level, but at the lower levels the severe amount this makes it worse for Protoss.
Stay posted, I have a version I've done a lot of refining for a while back that I believe achieves the goals you're looking for here, planning on getting a video up for it soon. Would love your thoughts on it!
The changes have kind of ruined the game for me. In particular it feels like balance is based on who is whining the loudest and who has a seat at the table, rather than actual numbers. I also think "tournament wins" is a bogus way to determine balance. I'm told ghosts are dominant in lategame. Is it ghosts in general, or Maru's ghosts? I have watched Serral smash Clem's ghosts with a well-placed fungal --> baneling roll. How do we determine whether ghosts are actually OP? Here is one simple way: Terran W/L in games that last at least 10+ minutes vs games that end before ghosts are out. No one has even bothered to collect the ACTUAL game data that could help make balance decisions (and that are certainly a massive part of general game design). So instead we get these "finger in the air" balance guesses that are additionally impacted by politics. Just very frustrating.
Its weird how these changes all started with an attempt to make the cyclone a more core combat unit while trying to maintain its whole firing on the move shtick. Personally, I absolutely hate the idea of its damage being tuned *just* for mechanical since that just heavily skews its desirability in match ups. I'd go with just 11 (+3 armored) (+1 all) or, if a desire for a more scaling unit, something like 8 or 9 and +2 per upgrade vs all. As for the whole kiting thing? It all depends on what could be easily implemented with the code. Personally I could see them simply having the lock on reduce their movement speed while its active, so that they can still kite, but they are much more easily tracked and pressured as a result, like dropping it to 3.25 or 3. I'd then give the lock dedicatedly increased range *just* against air targets too then.
@andrewferguson6901 idk, I can't imagine ever making ling vs mech. Kinda the point of mech, force the lings to stop and make zerg go there version of mech. Protoss doesn't really change there build for it. And bio rolls mech.
Replace it with a redesigned Odin. It costs only minerals and is build from a barak (that you lose). When activated it costs 100 minerals per second, walks incredibly slow, deals damage to many targets for 10 minerals per shot.
You know, I just watched a proxy reactor cyclone game from 2018, and I was like.... hmmm, maybe it was hard to defend against this strat at that time, but with the lock-on mechanic, there is no way toss can defend a 3 min timing with 2 cyclone with lock-on ,and considering that the cyclones are cheaper you could technically go for another proxy factory , hmm, I think making the lock-on ability an upgrade for techlab with 57/79 sec seems like a good idea ,but again, life may be difficult against proxy voidrays/tempest.
If the devs give the Cyclone a separate attack vs air units, it would make it easier to create a balanced unit. (Or alternatively it could receive two modes, such as the Viking, Hellion or Thor.) If it has two different attacks how would you balance the Cyclone? Obviously you'd like it to counter Stalkers and probably be countered by Immortals, but for instance how strong should it be to early-/mid-game air units? (Phoenix, Oracle, ..)
I think the main focus should be on its anti ground attack. Making it weaker against air isn't going to change a lot since you have a lot of other solutions against that and mass Phoenix might become a problem
@@HeroMarineSc2 You are going to create more instability in pvt with this unit. Its faster than the stalker and you are making it counter it. You really need to rethink this whole thing before you kill this game. If nobody watches your income will be zero.
@@MrMasters1983 Heromarine isn't even part of the balance council making suggestions for the patch. He's said previously that he thinks it's too much of a conflict of interest since a sizeable part of his income is from bring a pro player, and obviously, as a pro player, having his faction be stronger or having his playstyle be better would be financially beneficial.
100 HP Cyclone is neither armored or light, only mechanical Its ability has cooldown (need upgrade to remove cooldown) No bonus damage against light, armored or mechanical units Maybe?
If the need is for cyclones to be an answer to stalkers, they'd really need to cut down on their mobility as well or cut their damage vs Light to be low enough that zealots/adepts can give it problems. The ability to attack while moving with the 9 range leash is just too powerful vs other units. Making them light would certainly help a lot, and it wouldn't affect the TvZ match up at all, so that's a pretty reasonable direction, but the mobility and DPS vs light enemies would likely still be concerns that would need to be addressed. The issue with cyclones, in their current design, is that they MUST be countered by stalkers. Protoss doesn't have another good unit to use against them due to their mobility, supply and resource cost (Phoenixes would sort of work if they were balanced to be a 3-4 supply unit instead of a 2 supply unit), armor tag, and general DPS. They'd probably need to make them light and remove lock-on (at least vs ground), to make them work vs protoss without breaking other match ups, as that would give the space for them to be made effective vs stalkers, but render them more vulnerable to units like adepts, zealots, and colossus. But that could cause concerns with oracles, against which, 1-2 cyclones are currently the main response in the early game, and potentially adepts. Terran needs something that can vie for map control when playing mech vs blink, and cyclones do seem like the choice for that, but... the solution shouldn't be only cyclones - it makes things way too 1-dimensional. Frankly, I don't really think there's a way to change a single unit to fix all of the problems of mech vs Protoss and give it a real place on the pro scene without making that unit OP, as it'd essentially have to counter stalkers, zealots, immortals, archons, and, ideally, provide mobile anti-air, all at the same time; it's why the Warhound, which was what Blizzard came up with when trying to do that back in the HoTS alpha/beta, ended up being so absurdly overpowered. Trying to make an armored unit counter immortals was never going to result in something reasonable without changing the immortal, especially if it's also strong vs zealots/stalkers. It feels like they're sort of trying to do the same thing with cyclones, but with mobility instead of making any attempts to let it fight immortals/chargelots straight up without micro. Frankly, I think mech either just needs another unit, or for hellions and/or hellbats to be reworked (perhaps lowering splash damage and improving single target damage or HP to make them better at killing zealots in smaller numbers) in addition to the cyclone so they can fill effective roles vs the Protoss army in the early-mid game if they want to make mech function reasonably vs Protoss. Edit: I see that you already suggested removing the lock-on later in the video to curb the mobility/ease of micro vs units with less range so units like Zealots can be more effective against it.
Do you think there is potential to adjust the Cyclone in a way that Adepts can counter it? They already get a bonus vs Light units, have a Shade ability, and are very underutilized in this matchup. Their weakness is their shit range, so something would need to be changed to compensate for that.
@@ZC.Andrew Just making them Light, and making Cyclones less effective at kiting, as was suggested in the video, would probably do that. Adepts are kind of finnicky to balance because they 2 shot probes/drones, and there isn't really any room to make them better without changing that (I still don't get why they chose 21 when they nerfed the damage due to them being busted in PvT at 23 instead of 18 or 19. Less damage per hit/slightly less extreme vs light specialization have left more room for making them decent units outside of suiciding for drones/probes).
The cyclone counter zeote, sentry and maybe adept. You should keep at least an early counter for protoss against cyclone because if protoss don't then mech might end up being banned in competition because it will make PvT borringly unbalanced.
If the Cyclone is going be like the Terran Void Ray, maybe Lock On should take inspiration from Prismatic Alignment? Make Lock On a mode which allows the ability to activate, but slows the Cyclone down. The problem I see is that Lock On benefits so much from higher speed. There should be a fixed speed during Lock On to prevent infinite kiting, and maybe a very short range on the auto-attack while the Cyclone is more mobile.
I don’t think you should add another ability, it already feels like Terran units always have to activate or siege before they are useful in a fight. Would be nice to have a normal fighting Unit for once
Maybe it would be nice to change the capture damage when moving by 2 times? So we wouldn't be able to get as many acquisitions from micro, but we could fight stalkers, and if we need to run away from them without annihilating zergs close range units
I personally like the cyclone. every race should have a unit like the dragoon/hydra in SC2, where you just spam it and win. This is to help people who wants to play one handed and those who dont know hotkeys. This will help the community grow by having units that can kill air and ground, spammable, doesnt need tech or upgrades.
Wait wtf why shouldnt hellbat ZERGLINGS? They are not probes, they are not fast? What role do hellbats provide in mech games besides sponge the flood of lings?
They'll still be good vs lings even if they don't 1-shot them. This is mainly for the extreme late game, when Zerg can pretty much only make lings, and Terran absolutely crushes that with hellbats 1-shotting clumps of them
@@Matt-ln7lb I feel like Zerglings probably should be getting one shot if they're in the extreme late game. They're the cheapest, fastest building, fastest moving fighting unit in the game, why are we concerned about their late game viability?
how about cyclone lock on not an auto cast but a spell that you have to press. could you imagine how hard it is for us nonpros clicking on a zergling, so small that using locking on is not even worth it
I sometimes made arcade games with the black sports car and i made it a mobile bunker. I Think adding a similar mechanic to banshee for example could see some sick potential for terran games vesus mass stalkers without going full cyclone which is becoming a meme.
To be honest, I don't think this version of the Cyclone can be balanced right, as it has the same problem as the void ray. On a more general unit, Moving while "auto attacking" is extremely hard to balance, and can only work if the unit has some glaring weakness. For example, the void ray - the jack of all trades of flying units - is always way too strong or way too weak for it's price, while the phoenix is considered balanced because it's only good in specific situations. On the other hand making the cyclone stop to shoot would make it pretty weird, and I'm pretty sure it would cause trouble with the lock-on mechanic. On this specific changes, this is definitely a balance change for TVZ, as this helps roaches, but invalidates even the phoenix for protoss base defense. I really feel bad for the balancing team, but this is definitely not it...
Can someone explain to me how playing ling/bane in ZvT versus bio will be playable after taking 5hp from banelings? It's hard even now for me and if less banelings connect it can be impossible to win :< But I'm Diamond 1 only.
I actually like this idea. It would move slowly while locked on, like the Void Ray. This would make it still a good kiting unit against units its size and larger, while making it vulnerable to Lings and Chargelots. I love this.
I agree that the cyclone shouldn't be able to infinitely kite, maybe reducing the cyclones speed when it is locked on might be a good idea to solve that issue
The balls they had to pick the cyclone and try to do what blizzard tried to do with it. Maybe the past 5 reversions back and forth for the cyclone are cause it’s a bad unit for what they’re stating.
I’m certainly no expert but here are some changes I think would be interesting to move pressure away from stalkers. 1: sentries take no lock-on damage and have double force field range when near a nexus. (You’d still need sight from zealots or observers or smth. 2: stalkers deal 1 less or take 1 more damage from cyclones and zealots deal 1 damage more against cyclones, also zealot charge should be slightly faster. Say by .14 movement speed. 3: cyclones should take 10-15% more damage from colossus.
Make lock-on only vs air, give it some more stats and a range upgrade to compensate. There, it's a decent unit at holding 4gate blink and an anti-air specialist.
Starcraft 2 is dying. Too many hew RTS coming out now and they are trying to seem like they are still working on the game but the one person working there has no idea what he is doing
delusional AF. banelings slight nerf against probes; every other zerg unit that has been touched is buffed and terran getting nerfed multiple times. Serral will go undefeated against T and P on this patch.
Gabe should rename himself as Heroclone 😂
wrr
Now the Cyclone kills the Probe even faster, nice. That's fun, I felt Probes were a bit too effective against Cyclones tbh.
Not to mention also buffed versus Sentry, Phoenix and Observer since those are mechanical light units too.
You got a point, I propose making all Terran units 1 hp 1 dmg, but the ghost has emp on autocast, zero energy cost, 25 range aoe, no friendly fire and it does hp damage on top of shield damage. You know, because you don't want any other unit or viable fighting strategy vs protoss
NOT THE DREADED CYCLONE DROP
Against Phoenix I think it's huge
@@hentaidude666 you're strawmanning. no one is concerned that terran has another option just as good as bio in pvt. what they are concerned is it's so powerful that it can do a build that toss can't possibly defend much like stephano's max roach that won him championships. he worked out a mathematical build and timing that allowed him to A move to championship, making the game incredibly boring.
@@nguquaxanguyen5224 But none of the mentioned units are what we would consider counters to Cyclone. Sentrys and Observers won't be pitted against Cyclones. Phoenixes might be relevant, but not as a core interaction.
Love that you started making more frequent videos right in time for this new patch mania. Love hearing your thoughts on the Heroclone!
Not surprised with the nerf. I think the speed nerf opens more counter play, but these changes are not well thought out, much like the previous ones.
Okay mechanical, so it doesn't impact zerg, also static defense isn't impacted now...but this actually is worse for protoss, which with the previous iteration left the question "What do protoss build? Cyclone counters everything?" With these changes the question is "I was wrong, it turns out you could make cyclones counter even more protoss units!!"
This change created more issues against Toss. Mechanical means ALL toss air units in additional to the armored units. So bye phoenix's. So you basically just removed protoss air play from the terran match up. The units that cyclone doesn't counter with damage buffs, they already countered with mobility (zealots, archons, adepts, and templars). So the question for the balancers has remained the same regarding protoss. What do they expect protoss to build against cyclones? As it stands I still see this change resulting in Terran builds 20 cyclones then basically a-moves the protoss base, and they probably can win a lot of the time.
I like the suggestion of making them light, at least this presents some clear possible counters to them, it addresses the competing with stalker issue, while also creating possibilities of adepts actually maybe being a unit. Plus it won't heavily impact many of the other match ups.
I do think there is a place for units that can move and shoot, but there needs to be an opportunity cost to it. Old cyclone the opportunity cost was that it was a shit unit with a niche role. I think the solution for the new one is to add opportunity costs into the first suggested change.
1) Reduce lock-on targeting to range 5, reduce tether range to 7.
2) Add an upgrade that requires the armory that increases lock-on targeting to 6 (current changed range) and tethering to 9 (current change range).
By doing this early game you force the cyclones into taking more damage if they want to move and shoot vs more ranged units (queen range is 5 for example), you don't punish aggressive cyclone play (pushing into stalkers), and you still give them the ability to not get steam rolled by melee by moving and shooting vs close targets. But you have increased the micro demand, you have put the cyclones at more risk early, and by reducing the tether range to 7, you allow static defenses to be a potential defensive counter.
But you maintain the range which is important and didn't feel that bad in the mid game, by having an upgrade that requires some investment. Armory is an investment in both early resources and time, so cyclones won't be as oppressive as they are right now in the first couple minutes, it won't really punish mech players, but it also will still allow for a more bio oriented transition at that point. So as midgame approaches and through midgame you essentially have the current cyclones, which feel closer to decent to play against.
If Cyclones slowed down while locked on, Adepts might be the unit of choice on the ground, with Oracles or Phoenix in the air. It's not the worst idea I have heard. I too would like to see Adepts being utilized.
I think not having the lock-on while moving aspect for the cyclone would basically remove it's unique identity and cool thing, but you did say you want it to just be the mech version of a marine. If they do go the way you proposed, I think they should make the model smaller as well.
So make Lock-on a techlab upgrade instead of being an off the line feature. This way you can get Lock-On but at the cost of a few early clones that you would've reactored out.
@@selwrynn6702then what's the point of building cyclones?
Blizzard tried that, removing the lock on and making it like a marine. It was stupid and simple and I am glad they reverted it. I really don't think the patch should make another mass produced unit. I really like the current version.
See you in 3 days for another review of the cyclone :D
If the cyclone was light wouldn't it get too good against the immortal?
Terran doesn't have a mech unit to trade against immortal. "Too good" I doubt, but "somewhat better" yea.
With 120 health, light tag, immortal would still 3 shot it.
@@petercarioscia9189 yeah, 20x3 is exactly equal to 120, terran are truly good at math i have to say.
It would. Oracles, Phoenixes, and Adepts would be the Protoss counter units at that point... all of which are garbage, gimmicky short ranged units. On the ground Protoss would be in a lot of trouble; they would be forced to go air. As usual.
@@petercarioscia9189i think you confused Immortal's damage with Siege Tank's? Immortal would take 6 shots to kill a Cyclone, not 3. And 6 is a lot.
You nailed it on what the problems are. They’re rehashing old stuff and blizzard did the same saying it was for tvp mech but it was trash for that and really annoying as Zerg for bits here and there when you can never catch them when they come out. The light tag might be the best suggestion I’ve heard yet.
If the Cyclone becomes a light unit, Protoss would have no cost efficient counter on the ground aside from Adepts and Chargelots, both of which would have some major issues vs the kiting. Additionally, Charge is too late to counter early reactor Cyclone pushes. Protoss would need to go air to counter this.
Shooting and moving is neccesary for cyclone to work. However I get your point about it beeing imbalanced against zerg and cyclone should have a coldown of ex. 2 sec. in order to activate new lock-on when the first one that is interupted (by kiling unit/ moving out of range). This red lasers that appeared on cyclone when mag-field was reaserched could be an indicator of lock-on beeing redy.
can't wait for more videos about future cyclone changes
The important thing in gathering here is that the PBE forum post that came out 2 days ago is completely wrong. It list the original tentative changes.
Seems reasonable, I would like it if they made the cyclone a light unit and possibly a little smaller so that it can be packed more densely, not too much, but maybe around 20%. I'm not sure the lock on make much sense with the way it operates, unless maybe lock on actually slows the cyclone just a bit while in lock mode, otherwise this seems like a very tough balancing act.
On the Hellbat change remember, every time they reduce a unit's damage vs light you are buffing marines, this is what the Terran Mafia doesn't want you to know (also re the Baneling change)
You can't make a Protoss' counter to Cyclone a Robo unit, especially when you can reactor out Cyclone as Toss are basically always going Stargate first. I will once again propose, make Lock-On the upgrade on the techlab instead of speed, then maybe buff the Cyclone's speed to counteract that. The issue is if Stalkers don't trade favorably against Cyclone's proxy factories with reactored clones will dominate TvP and will easily destroy Protoss within the first 6 or so minutes.
yeah 3/3 hellbats the classic counter to marines...lol
The cyclone should be a main army unit.
Turning it from a specialized unit, into a weak main army unit, into a strong main army unit, into another specialized unit is moving backwards.
It should be good against armored units. Not "protoss".
Giving it "light" is also not a sensible fix. Bio has Marauders, Toss has stalkers, Zerg roaches. Mech would have ... nothing armored untill you get thors (I don't count siege tanks, if they get attacked: you messed up).
Making it similar to the marine is a good idea. As in: One upgrade should provide a damage increase the other not.
My solution: Base damage 11 + 2 against armored. (Upgrades add +1 dmg +0 Anti Armor)
Upgrade 1: Speed + Lockon.
Upgrade 2 (Requires Fusion Core): Armor penetration. Auto attacks ignore armor while locked on. (This is why the damage is being adjusted back down)
That way it is okay early on. Falls off for a bit as armor upgrades get introduced and then becomes very powerfull in the lategame.
It also negates the design flaw of being a fast attacking (Thus weak against large armored targets), slow missle (thus overkilling on small targets) unit.
And you can seperately ballance the early game and lategame for the same unit.
I think that the cyclone should not be filling the role of 'stalker killer'. First off, the stalker already has a lot of counters - stim marines, marauders with or without stim, tanks, ghosts, liberators, thors... like, the stalker already falls off sooo so quickly in TvP, we don't need another thing to kill them. Yes I understand mech is in a weird state vs Protoss right now but why are we adding another counter to the stalker of all things? It would just make stalkers completely irrelevant, you'd be getting rid of the only really viable gateway unit which isn't even good into the late game. The whole point of the balance patch was to make the Protoss midgame vs Terran a bit easier, not counter literally the only viable unit to have at the 4 min mark. And no, the immortal doesn't qualify as a 'counter' as the lockon will outrange and kite. You've also got to consider not just at the highest level, but at the lower levels the severe amount this makes it worse for Protoss.
You’re kind of describing a Goliath.
Stay posted, I have a version I've done a lot of refining for a while back that I believe achieves the goals you're looking for here, planning on getting a video up for it soon. Would love your thoughts on it!
The changes have kind of ruined the game for me. In particular it feels like balance is based on who is whining the loudest and who has a seat at the table, rather than actual numbers. I also think "tournament wins" is a bogus way to determine balance.
I'm told ghosts are dominant in lategame. Is it ghosts in general, or Maru's ghosts? I have watched Serral smash Clem's ghosts with a well-placed fungal --> baneling roll. How do we determine whether ghosts are actually OP? Here is one simple way: Terran W/L in games that last at least 10+ minutes vs games that end before ghosts are out. No one has even bothered to collect the ACTUAL game data that could help make balance decisions (and that are certainly a massive part of general game design). So instead we get these "finger in the air" balance guesses that are additionally impacted by politics. Just very frustrating.
Its weird how these changes all started with an attempt to make the cyclone a more core combat unit while trying to maintain its whole firing on the move shtick.
Personally, I absolutely hate the idea of its damage being tuned *just* for mechanical since that just heavily skews its desirability in match ups. I'd go with just 11 (+3 armored) (+1 all) or, if a desire for a more scaling unit, something like 8 or 9 and +2 per upgrade vs all.
As for the whole kiting thing? It all depends on what could be easily implemented with the code. Personally I could see them simply having the lock on reduce their movement speed while its active, so that they can still kite, but they are much more easily tracked and pressured as a result, like dropping it to 3.25 or 3. I'd then give the lock dedicatedly increased range *just* against air targets too then.
What he wants is the goliath back
Idk man... besides the cyclone stuff, why they touching the hellbat? The balancement was fine there.
They buffing Marines vs Hellbat
Buffing the f out of lings vs bat. Lings might actually get 1 attack in before dying against any number of mech now
@andrewferguson6901 idk, I can't imagine ever making ling vs mech. Kinda the point of mech, force the lings to stop and make zerg go there version of mech. Protoss doesn't really change there build for it. And bio rolls mech.
Replace it with a redesigned Odin. It costs only minerals and is build from a barak (that you lose). When activated it costs 100 minerals per second, walks incredibly slow, deals damage to many targets for 10 minerals per shot.
You know, I just watched a proxy reactor cyclone game from 2018, and I was like.... hmmm, maybe it was hard to defend against this strat at that time, but with the lock-on mechanic, there is no way toss can defend a 3 min timing with 2 cyclone with lock-on ,and considering that the cyclones are cheaper you could technically go for another proxy factory , hmm, I think making the lock-on ability an upgrade for techlab with 57/79 sec seems like a good idea ,but again, life may be difficult against proxy voidrays/tempest.
Yoooo yes. Speed upgrade is garbage. Just give an upgrade that gives move+shoot and give it tether range like mothership
If the devs give the Cyclone a separate attack vs air units, it would make it easier to create a balanced unit.
(Or alternatively it could receive two modes, such as the Viking, Hellion or Thor.)
If it has two different attacks how would you balance the Cyclone?
Obviously you'd like it to counter Stalkers and probably be countered by Immortals, but for instance how strong should it be to early-/mid-game air units? (Phoenix, Oracle, ..)
I think the main focus should be on its anti ground attack. Making it weaker against air isn't going to change a lot since you have a lot of other solutions against that and mass Phoenix might become a problem
@@HeroMarineSc2 You are going to create more instability in pvt with this unit. Its faster than the stalker and you are making it counter it. You really need to rethink this whole thing before you kill this game. If nobody watches your income will be zero.
@@MrMasters1983 Heromarine isn't even part of the balance council making suggestions for the patch. He's said previously that he thinks it's too much of a conflict of interest since a sizeable part of his income is from bring a pro player, and obviously, as a pro player, having his faction be stronger or having his playstyle be better would be financially beneficial.
@@bluerendar2194 He is an influencer and a respected member of the community. I dont agree with his balance proposals at all.
Welcome to the internet.
Wouldn't it be better to return goliath because this cheeky-tue-pue-tue-pue-squire is gonna annoy the hell out of everybody in all terran match ups?
I miss the Goliath, but they'd have to change it. It's stupid strong. A Goliath would have to get on par with stalker hydra
100 HP
Cyclone is neither armored or light, only mechanical
Its ability has cooldown (need upgrade to remove cooldown)
No bonus damage against light, armored or mechanical units
Maybe?
Double damage vs mech but only vs hp not sheilds.
Regards, The Cabal
If the need is for cyclones to be an answer to stalkers, they'd really need to cut down on their mobility as well or cut their damage vs Light to be low enough that zealots/adepts can give it problems. The ability to attack while moving with the 9 range leash is just too powerful vs other units. Making them light would certainly help a lot, and it wouldn't affect the TvZ match up at all, so that's a pretty reasonable direction, but the mobility and DPS vs light enemies would likely still be concerns that would need to be addressed.
The issue with cyclones, in their current design, is that they MUST be countered by stalkers. Protoss doesn't have another good unit to use against them due to their mobility, supply and resource cost (Phoenixes would sort of work if they were balanced to be a 3-4 supply unit instead of a 2 supply unit), armor tag, and general DPS. They'd probably need to make them light and remove lock-on (at least vs ground), to make them work vs protoss without breaking other match ups, as that would give the space for them to be made effective vs stalkers, but render them more vulnerable to units like adepts, zealots, and colossus. But that could cause concerns with oracles, against which, 1-2 cyclones are currently the main response in the early game, and potentially adepts.
Terran needs something that can vie for map control when playing mech vs blink, and cyclones do seem like the choice for that, but... the solution shouldn't be only cyclones - it makes things way too 1-dimensional.
Frankly, I don't really think there's a way to change a single unit to fix all of the problems of mech vs Protoss and give it a real place on the pro scene without making that unit OP, as it'd essentially have to counter stalkers, zealots, immortals, archons, and, ideally, provide mobile anti-air, all at the same time; it's why the Warhound, which was what Blizzard came up with when trying to do that back in the HoTS alpha/beta, ended up being so absurdly overpowered. Trying to make an armored unit counter immortals was never going to result in something reasonable without changing the immortal, especially if it's also strong vs zealots/stalkers. It feels like they're sort of trying to do the same thing with cyclones, but with mobility instead of making any attempts to let it fight immortals/chargelots straight up without micro.
Frankly, I think mech either just needs another unit, or for hellions and/or hellbats to be reworked (perhaps lowering splash damage and improving single target damage or HP to make them better at killing zealots in smaller numbers) in addition to the cyclone so they can fill effective roles vs the Protoss army in the early-mid game if they want to make mech function reasonably vs Protoss.
Edit: I see that you already suggested removing the lock-on later in the video to curb the mobility/ease of micro vs units with less range so units like Zealots can be more effective against it.
Do you think there is potential to adjust the Cyclone in a way that Adepts can counter it? They already get a bonus vs Light units, have a Shade ability, and are very underutilized in this matchup. Their weakness is their shit range, so something would need to be changed to compensate for that.
@@ZC.Andrew Just making them Light, and making Cyclones less effective at kiting, as was suggested in the video, would probably do that.
Adepts are kind of finnicky to balance because they 2 shot probes/drones, and there isn't really any room to make them better without changing that (I still don't get why they chose 21 when they nerfed the damage due to them being busted in PvT at 23 instead of 18 or 19. Less damage per hit/slightly less extreme vs light specialization have left more room for making them decent units outside of suiciding for drones/probes).
When will this patch go live?
The cyclone counter zeote, sentry and maybe adept. You should keep at least an early counter for protoss against cyclone because if protoss don't then mech might end up being banned in competition because it will make PvT borringly unbalanced.
I feel it should not be light because then the immortal sucks against it and that shouldn’t be the case right?
Immortals are already good against all Mech Units. I think it would be nice to have a unit that doesn't get countered by them like Thors or Tanks
So its going to counter all gateway units and immortals. Balance.
Oh and its faster.
and it shoots up.
@@MrMasters1983 Adepts and colossus would counter.
How long before we have another Cyclone update?
If the Cyclone is going be like the Terran Void Ray, maybe Lock On should take inspiration from Prismatic Alignment? Make Lock On a mode which allows the ability to activate, but slows the Cyclone down.
The problem I see is that Lock On benefits so much from higher speed. There should be a fixed speed during Lock On to prevent infinite kiting, and maybe a very short range on the auto-attack while the Cyclone is more mobile.
Hmm, i do like the idea of the Lock On being a toggle you have to turn on.
I don’t think you should add another ability, it already feels like Terran units always have to activate or siege before they are useful in a fight. Would be nice to have a normal fighting Unit for once
Maybe it would be nice to change the capture damage when moving by 2 times? So we wouldn't be able to get as many acquisitions from micro, but we could fight stalkers, and if we need to run away from them without annihilating zergs close range units
I personally like the cyclone. every race should have a unit like the dragoon/hydra in SC2, where you just spam it and win. This is to help people who wants to play one handed and those who dont know hotkeys. This will help the community grow by having units that can kill air and ground, spammable, doesnt need tech or upgrades.
Terrans have the marine already.
Wait wtf why shouldnt hellbat ZERGLINGS? They are not probes, they are not fast? What role do hellbats provide in mech games besides sponge the flood of lings?
They'll still be good vs lings even if they don't 1-shot them. This is mainly for the extreme late game, when Zerg can pretty much only make lings, and Terran absolutely crushes that with hellbats 1-shotting clumps of them
@@Matt-ln7lb I feel like Zerglings probably should be getting one shot if they're in the extreme late game. They're the cheapest, fastest building, fastest moving fighting unit in the game, why are we concerned about their late game viability?
how about cyclone lock on not an auto cast but a spell that you have to press. could you imagine how hard it is for us nonpros clicking on a zergling, so small that using locking on is not even worth it
Rapid Fire would make it easy to still lock-on
I sometimes made arcade games with the black sports car and i made it a mobile bunker. I Think adding a similar mechanic to banshee for example could see some sick potential for terran games vesus mass stalkers without going full cyclone which is becoming a meme.
How can I test this for myself?
To be honest, I don't think this version of the Cyclone can be balanced right, as it has the same problem as the void ray.
On a more general unit, Moving while "auto attacking" is extremely hard to balance, and can only work if the unit has some glaring weakness. For example, the void ray - the jack of all trades of flying units - is always way too strong or way too weak for it's price, while the phoenix is considered balanced because it's only good in specific situations.
On the other hand making the cyclone stop to shoot would make it pretty weird, and I'm pretty sure it would cause trouble with the lock-on mechanic.
On this specific changes, this is definitely a balance change for TVZ, as this helps roaches, but invalidates even the phoenix for protoss base defense. I really feel bad for the balancing team, but this is definitely not it...
Can someone explain to me how playing ling/bane in ZvT versus bio will be playable after taking 5hp from banelings? It's hard even now for me and if less banelings connect it can be impossible to win :<
But I'm Diamond 1 only.
The balance team just doesn't care about player experience below GM, lol.
Where can I find the link to all of the updates?
rentry.co/5012balancetest
Thank you!
Just bring back the warhounds already sheesh
Great vid
Could do the opposite too, make it super expensive and have 4/8 supply but could be super microable and shoot while in medivac
I like way he says "aaamord"
wrr, no such thing as sillyx about itx or good x or etc, c epuxux, outx, thinx ,can outx, thinkx etc any nmws perfx
Id suggest reducing the move speed when its locked on so it doesn't feel too bad but reduces the micro potential.
Damage reduction while moving would be decent
I actually like this idea. It would move slowly while locked on, like the Void Ray. This would make it still a good kiting unit against units its size and larger, while making it vulnerable to Lings and Chargelots. I love this.
so basicly we want a cyclone that is pretty bad early game but can be upgraded to be decent mid game but become bad again late game
The hellbat nerf might be major change? Cause that also might mean more zerglings everywhere.. everywhere xD and more caos for Terran late game? xD
This is just for Late Game, when Hellbats one shot with +3. They are still very good vs Zerglings
lmaooooo blink nuke cyclones would surely balance the game a bit
I agree that the cyclone shouldn't be able to infinitely kite, maybe reducing the cyclones speed when it is locked on might be a good idea to solve that issue
reducing its damage seemed like a decent suggestion
The balls they had to pick the cyclone and try to do what blizzard tried to do with it. Maybe the past 5 reversions back and forth for the cyclone are cause it’s a bad unit for what they’re stating.
Omg, this changes is become more, and more sad. They should stop it.
I’m certainly no expert but here are some changes I think would be interesting to move pressure away from stalkers.
1: sentries take no lock-on damage and have double force field range when near a nexus. (You’d still need sight from zealots or observers or smth.
2: stalkers deal 1 less or take 1 more damage from cyclones and zealots deal 1 damage more against cyclones, also zealot charge should be slightly faster. Say by .14 movement speed.
3: cyclones should take 10-15% more damage from colossus.
why not remove armored tag from cyclones, and reduce health back to 100. that way, it wont get wrecked by immos, and will get better vs stalkers.
Give immos more damage vs mech ;)
Did you miss the fact that cyclones are already OP and immortal is the only protoss unit that counters them? 😂
@@greenlitlleman stalkers counter the cyclone
@@TheMrGazoline Did you even check tests? The same number of cyclones annihilate stalkers.
@@greenlitlleman did you? The realistic part of the test is when you micro the stalker. In that part of the test cyclones were garbage.
Hes not going to the unit tester because he doesnt want to get it nerfed again.
No need when it probably gets changed again in a few days!
Good video with based opinions. Enjoyed it!
I think putting the lock on ability behind an upgrade would solve a lot of issues.
Nice Thumbnail, haha
TvZ= Don't make a Cyclone
Make lock-on only vs air, give it some more stats and a range upgrade to compensate. There, it's a decent unit at holding 4gate blink and an anti-air specialist.
The new Cyclone is about 200% too strong so let's reduce its stats by 5%. Genius move from the almighty Balance Council of gigabrains.
You're overestimating the size of the "almighty Balance Council of gigabrains". It's just one unfortunate intern on Blizzard that manages sc2.
Starcraft 2 is dying. Too many hew RTS coming out now and they are trying to seem like they are still working on the game but the one person working there has no idea what he is doing
This patch is all about Terran and Toss buffs while nerfing Zerg for no reason.
tbf zerg has been the stronger race for a while now
For no reason Kappa
are you serious ...
This is not a Toss friendly patch. Dont get it twisted.
delusional AF. banelings slight nerf against probes; every other zerg unit that has been touched is buffed and terran getting nerfed multiple times. Serral will go undefeated against T and P on this patch.
Not gonna lie, this logic is horrible