Megachurches are businesses. The pastors are often paid so much more than the average priest of any other religion. Here is Australia we have megachurches and their financial records are public. They are multi million dollar entities. An Anglican priest is paid around $30K per year, Pastors of megachurches are paid around $300k. The ones I know of own multiple properties, and use Tithing money to build their portfolios. The pastors are always travelling to other cities and countries supposedly for meetings and conferences but the time they spend in each destination is often a holiday with a couple of hours attending to church business, they stay in expensive hotels, etc. Meanwhile, their members struggle to make ends meet.
ALL churches are businesses. FFS Catholics have the Vatican City which is actually a COUNTRY inside Italy, the REAL country. Vatican City doesn't have to follow Italy's rules or laws despite being IN the country of Italy, so basically they get to do whatever the hell they want without consequence. They also take in BILLIONS and pay ZERO TAXES, and the Vatican has a BANK in the building. If they're not a business they wouldn't need their own bank.
Thank you both for your courage in having and publicizing such an important conversation, through a decolonized lens, no less. It's so necessary, and so brave.
"The more toxic and dysfunctional a system is the more it's concerned with it's own preservation and less concerned it is with the health and wellbeing of the people within it". Spot on!
I am 57 years old. I have been in the church most my life. I have experienced things I have never had words for. I wrote a book about my life, the church and God. Out of my 57 years this is the best video by far I have ever heard. This video has so much meat in it that it will take me more than one time to watch it. This is the conversation needed to be had in order to understand the difference between a religious institution and GOD. This is the conversation I have waited for, for years. Dr. Ramani always meet you where you are and bring you home. Congratulations to Noemi for finding your truth and having the courage to speak out. I applaud you!
There were many Hillsong Churches and each differed according to the leadership. Millions have been saved and strengthened in their faith through Hillsong over the decades. No church this Big and diverse is going to be without problems. Satan will always attack an effective ministry. Carl Lenz was certainly a bad apple
I am a 59 feminine lesbian and knew by 9 years old. In my generation many of us forced ourselves to date and try to be straight. In attempting to be straight you quickly learn that straight hetero sex can feel like you allowed yourself to be raped because it feels completely unnatural. For a straight person trying to have same-sex sex would feel just as repulsive but hetero people don't seem to want to accept or comprehend that. I come from a family of pastors so I grew up in church which made it impossible to come out in my teens. When I finally came out to my family at 19 years old, my mother tried throwing me out of the home but my grandmother didn't allow it, thankfully. I still needed to complete my last year of high school so as soon as I could I did leave with my 1st partner.
I am so sorry you went through this 😢 I have separated from the Church and "religion"....I still believe in God and Jesus, but I love everyone. _Everyone._ I'm sending you a BIG hug and much love. I'm so sorry about your family. That had to have been extremely painful. 😓 You are seen, heard and loved!!!
@@SkiesVibrant I have read the bible from cover to cover and I didn't read anywhere that it is forbidden. Besides the bible was put together 400 years after the time of Jesus, and only certain scriptures written about him and his followers were added. Much of the old testament was not written down, it was passed down through the centuries from generation to generation. The modern day bible has been reinterpreted so many times and changed to suit the ideology of whatever church that uses it to preach from.
How does a Church that rejects all extramarital and homosexual acts, in accordance with their Scriptures, better relate to the gay community? I have never had any association with Hillsong, and I have heard negative things about them. Who would represent gay people in a reconciled relationship? What concessions or changes could churches make? Sorry if this is addressed. I'm just starting the video. But these are important questions to me.
What a fantastic interview…it is rare for me to find a story I relate to THIS MUCH, right down to being tricked/forced into basically a group exorcism, good lord…thank you thank you thank you both for this.
First of all when ur born into something u don’t know any better. Thk God this woman’s smarts & intuition guided her out of this FALSE teachings….noemi u r so brave u have validated everything I’ve been thinking for years…it’s a long story but this interview has changed my life. ❤
The number of religious nuts in these comments ignoring the actual body of this podcast episode and invalidating Noemi's experience with religious trauma really proves her point.
This discussion was such a pleasure to listen to. Growing up within mormonism, as an undiagnosed Autistic queer person, there are SO many similarities listening to Noemi’s story. Mormonism is another religion synonymous with narcissism.
I am so sorry for what you went through 😢 I am a believer and I'm straight, but I love you~ Sister! I'm sorry the "Church" has failed you by being horrible....a complete rejection of what Jesus taught! It all comes down to Love. Full stop. ❤
The church (nondenominational) I married my narcissist ex husband in had a pastor like this, and leaders. They were the "Untouchables". A member had to go through a leader to get to the pastor and many times the pastor had no time for you. I was told by youth pastors that if a youth/kid didn't have talents that could be used by the church, then they wouldn't waste their time with them. 😢 That was heart-shattering. And many times my talents were used but trying to create meaningful relationships with the other members who were also serving was incredibly difficult. I kept thinking something was wrong with me, a reason people seemed to hold me at arms length. It was very hurtful. Not to mention that when I spoke up in small groups at this church, the horrific things that were happening in my marriage, I was told to pray harder, read scripture more, give my abusive ex more sex, save him through my unconditional respect & submission as his wife. Good grief. My ex stopped going to church 6 years in and he made it very difficult for me to attend other churches, among other things....but I'm grateful because if I would have tried to leave my ex while attending, I probably would have been guilted and shamed into staying in that abusive marriage. Many people have this happen. It's horrific how the church encourages victims to stay in abuse because the church doesn't want to be known for having divorces. Many don't care about the individual and the hell they are living in. Ugh....my heart.
You are right and it is sad. There are many narcissistic men in church, and instead of bringing them to order, some people in church enable them. The sad part is they don't teach their members to read scripture, this enables them to add and subtract and distort God's word. It is important for everyone who wants to follow Jesus and who follows Jesus to read their bible for themselves. I hope you are doing well and things are better now for you and your children.
I wanna start a church with you, Noemi! :) I'm joking of course, but also not. I want someone to start a church (and get it to be really successful) which preaches empathy, acceptance, equality, comradery, and-most importantly-decolonization of our minds, muddied by old hierarchies and their oppression.
I am very very happy for this beautiful young lady. This ended up being a tremendous blessing for her. I’m glad that her family supported her and mom needs a trophy for standing up in church to support her daughter. This is absolutely wonderful.
The policies are written in the Bible. The scripture. You went to a church and they didn’t affirm your LGBTQ and you were surprised? You don’t have to agree with that, but they don’t have to agree with you either.
Great interview so far, very hard to listen to...all of this is very cultish. Sad you had to go through this. I loved how you could be so calm in the midst of so much judgment.
So glad someone like you is covering this. I personally went to a church that they would make frequent appearances at and that church got exposed just shortly after for narcissism. The head pastor who has been accused of narcissism, abuse to the staff, among other things that someone in his place shouldn’t be doing…is now suing the church after being sued himself. It’s a mess! He and his wife are very well known in the city the church is located. It’s really sad because pretty much everyone in the city even if you didn’t go to the church knew about the church. It’s disappointing and sad.
Dr. Ramani I wanted to give an opinion on something you said about pastor's not having nice things until everyone has something. I don't think that's a fair requirement. I grew up a pastor's daughter and there were lean years and plentiful years. Pastoring is a calling but it's also a career and how they put food on the table. I don't agree with Hillsong's ostentatious displays of wealth, but it isn't fair to expect pastor's to work 40+ hours a week and struggle financially. It's like saying that you can't be financially stable until all your patients are financially stable. Just some thoughts. Thank you for talking about toxicity in Christianity. It can be the most damaging experience. I actually left my ultra-conservative religion because of this. Thank you for all you do.
I am glad Noemi got to talk it out, but you never really addressed Hillsong or the problems with it. Narcism and the church is a recent occurrence, and it comes from USA, not Australia. They have been robbing us of our voice, so we have no voice. We have been warning people about Hillsong including Hillsong but they don't listen. You don't hear our cry, you don't hear our pain, and you certainly don't hear our suffering, because we realised long ago, you don't care. Had New Zealand did something about Frank Houston and His pedophilia, they might have sparred our children. We don't like the sex abuse, we don't like pedophilia, we don't like the criminality, we don't like the cults, we don't like the celebritism and we don't like how they tried to take over our nation. We can't stand that brand of christianity, because its not God. There is nothing wrong with our true Christianity, which is different from what people see or are led to believe, which was oppressive, or our spirituality, or our voice, or the way we express ourselves, or our identity, or the way we grieve because our nation is grieving, and we will continual to do so, until we are healed because we are hurting beyond measure. The Home style christianity, came from me, the need to belong, came from me and us together and its a cry to our belonging problem we have in our nation, they just took it and ran with it, but they don't know how to do it, because it didn't come from them, they just copied it, because they are an airport, more than they are home. The situation with Hillsong, is beyond measure sad, and the world supports them, more than Australia. Majority of people that go to Hillsong belong to the World, who have pushed Australians out so we have no place, nor space, no belonging, so we go bush, I get to be with the Kangies. I am not blaming Hillsong for the pedophilia problem we have in Australia, nor the covering up, that is what happens, when you oppress people. I am not blaming them for the criminiality or the cults, but we are holding them accountable for what they did and saying No and No more. Message to US and the world, stop robbing us of our voice, we don't like it.
Narcissism and religion/church is NOT a recent occurrence, it's been part of religion since the religions were formed. And it doesn't just come from the US, it comes from EVERY country. Christianity is inherently bad, that's where the stuff you're projecting onto others come from. If you're not blaming those that are causing the problem (Hillsong) then YOU'RE part of the problem. WTF are you talking about? The US isn't robbing you, from another CONTINENT, of anything, it's happens from WITHIN not from without. Blame the real problem, your precious Christianity, because that's where it's coming from.
I love your voice. Just listening to you feels healing to my soul. ❤ I appreciate you and all the work you do. THANK YOU!!❤❤❤ You're a true Earth Angel.
I raised my daughters in Church. 23 year after accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior year 2000. I served big time in the youth and had many leaders telling me what to do but I did see many children raised Christian get married with men to later divorce and marry a woman. One of them my pastors own daughter. mostly all the young girls in the church went gay. I loved this teaching. Beautiful your story. Yes I did see lack of love in the Church and alottttt of narcissism. I attracting them all I had to really overcome codependency. Lolllll but thank God now I know Jesus and Dr. Ramani with psychology wowww do we need psychology or else Church phony people will eat us aliveeeee. God bless your heart. I also have not gone to Church in 3 years but I love TBN
"Do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore, whoever chooses to be a friend of the world renders himself an enemy of God." (James 4:4)
This was a tough episode, her upbringing failed her and left her lost to be easily fooled by any manipulative environments, in my opinion including the gender stuff she discovered in university.
I've always had a bad feeling about Hillsong, that it was very manipulative. The narcissist I was married to is a Uniting Church minister. . Turned out that that Church was just as bad. I have no time for any church now, handle with extreme care, don't ever blindly trust, be very discerning. The church is full of narcissists & their awful enablers.
What happened at Hillsong is inexcusable, but LGBTQ lifestyle is a sin as well. Whole cities were destroyed because of such sins, read Genesis 18 from verse 16 on and chapter 19 the whole chapter Sodom and Gomorrah. Also Romans 1:18-32 talks about many sins including the sin of homosexuality. Some things we cannot rationalize or ignore, and they are not a matter of opinion but a matter of truth. Whether the person is heterosexual but engages in life of sin(adultery, fornication, lying, murder, cheating, scamming people etc...)or engages in the LGBTQ lifestyle they are both under condemnation. There is, however, hope and forgiveness in Jesus Christ for He and only Him is willing to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We have to repent from our sinful lives and come to Christ believing in His righteousness and power to forgive us and make us righteous before God through faith in Him. The folks who have caused all this damage to all these dear people will have to give an account to God for their evil deeds. It was not God's will for these people to be hurt and abused the way they did. Satan, the father of lies and adversary of our souls is he who causes such pain and misery and God ends up paying for it. The Bible clearly says that: "It's not God's will that anyone perish but that all men come to repentance." Amen.
I'm so sorry you felt so bad you had to go to a psychiatric hospital. This is one of the terrible things that happen when these awful people have too much influence. You become very sick phsically & a shell of yourself mentally.
Am Christian . . Listen to dr rimimi re:NARCISSISM. Great Doctor. Sad about hillsong . Darlene got out in time . Many churches like this . Watch your back at church but NEVER BLAME GOD. margaret
Howdy! I’m a queer Christian in Boston, and I’ve had good luck with First Church Somerville UCC and the Cathedral Church of St. Paul. Both congregations put queer folks front and center!
Are you kidding me?!! You don't force someone to let you pray over them!!! I am a Christian and will be forever, and I am with you, Noemi, that none of this stuff was right, from beginning to end. Noemi, so very courageous from so young! Hats off!
It's so terrible when having this type of authority is used to exploit and abuse people. Jesus didn't even have a place to rest His head when He ministered, preached, healed, and helped. For Him it was about God's love and salvation not about riches and kingdoms. Its sad that churches abuse because they are entitled. I've been a minister and saw the corruption and decided to use my education and experience to help people and my community away from the bureaucracy and political restraints.
I can't wrap my mind around the idea that there are people who believe that money can purchase spirituality and God's approval. I was raised in a church where we paid tithing, so I sorta get that, but the clergy were unpaid volunteers, so I can't fathom providing a cushy lifestyle for a pastor! 😂
If you know something about yourself is incompatible with teaching or you just don't want to do the teaching go somewhere else. . I don't blame those ppl for their beliefs. I don't let them blame me for mine.
Thank you for this amazing interview. I would like to share something with Noemi. I'm a church musician for 27 years and I substituted at a UCC church last Sunday (Unitef Church of Christ). The whole town was celebrating LGBTQ affirming. There were flags everywhere and signs indicated this. I was expecting maybe young people at the church that might represent this population. There were mostly older parishioners in the pews. I was very impressed that the Pastor lady asked everyone to publicly affirm and welcome all members of the LGBTQ community. They spent at least 5 - 10 min affirming in great detail their acceptance. So, I worked like to recommend this denomination for Noemi. I actually worked at a church that was a fusion of Durch Reformed and UCC and we had openly gay members of the congregation warmly embraced and welcomed. Good luck with everything, Melissa Manning :-)
This resonated with me so much. Can you imagine reading this book as a bedtime story to a 6 year old? Raptured: A Novel on the Second Coming of the Lord Book by Ernest Angley Literally my mother would sit on the edge of the bed and read this to my sister and I. I was raised in an Assembly of God church. My mother was the church secretary for my elementary school years. She left that job and went to work at A/G Headquarters in Springfield, MO where she retired, she now lives in an A/G Assisted Living facility. We are estranged, because I confronted her about her narcissism. (I'm much better off) After having that horrific book read to me and my sister, I had utter and complete separation anxiety. I refused to let my parents out of my sight. Not even aware that I was clinging tightly to my abuser. I have (we all have) been witness to the falling of grace from all of these religious leaders. When I was a kid if was Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart (these two were watched daily by my mom and had them blasting through out the whole house so everyone had to listen to it.) I could write a book... and have thought about doing so often. But, I'd much rather have my mental freedom and move on.
My mother was the EXACT same way! I'm completely no contact now at 39 yrs old. She used god and the Bible as an excuse to beat me and abuse me my whole life I'm over the "church."
As a Christian I am appalled that what she is saying mostly true and common. Let me categorically say, tithing is not biblical. It was a description not a prescription. This also goes against the teaching of scripture not to give preferential treatment for the rich. Dr. Ramani is right, we are all equal and all sinners before a holy God. These people are charlatans and liars. I grew up witnessing and experiencing religious abuse and thank God I have learned to read my bible, been exposed to authentic Christian leaders and praise be to God, my family is coming out little by little. Praise God. I wish you the best dear and I hope you are ok.
I'm so glad you discussed this topic, Dr Ramini! It was very validating, thank you. I lived this experience a few years ago and I too left a narc company in 2019. It hurt me so deeply that I didn't apply to work at any company for a year. I still have residual thoughts of suing the company once in a while, but that seems like it would be wasted energy. Thanks again and to Ugo, for sharing his wisdom/experiences.
Noemi, you sre truly an excellent teacher, too. You break down the right terms every time without making assumltions or having to be asked. Could teaching be your gift? You certainly have what it takes to be a leader.
Wow so much wisdom and so brave and strong . Thank you for sharing. I m sorry that Thies happend to you. In tue Name of GOD, very cruel things where and are happening in thus Planet. you help thausends of People, even here in Europe where i live. Thank you 🎶💫🌍☀️🌟💜
Dr. Ramani - I just wanted to let you know that the color of the dress you wore for this episode is absolutely beautiful on you. It really compliments your skin tone.
How can u connect your crying with not possibly God touching your heart showing u something u r bound by just Like someone who is bound by things that isn't the heart of God for humanity do you align your faith In God with his word for us all it sounds like you only take parts of his love to suit you like many of us do do fit our lifestyles not his for his people ♥
Even what you said about tithes is a lie it's like your having only your say but nothing is aligning with God and the truth we all give account before God alone no one will be standing before God with anyone The Pastors will give account by themselves so will u n so will I nothing u have said gives peace
I’m sorry that you and many others have experienced the pain and careless treatment from those that claim to follow Jesus. In a perfect world it wouldn’t happen. Jesus takes all of our sins so seriously, that he fulfilled prophecy by dying on the cross in order that all believers in the gospel, will be saved from God’s wrath. Believers must keep their heart, soul and mind on Christ …not the faults of other believers. We all sin and fall short of God’s standard of perfection. Believe the Gospel of Salvation. According to the inspired Word of God, the Bible, Christ has the authority to save you after He becomes Lord and Savior of your life!
Human doctrines that fail too often give men the pass. The young lady was not given opportunities she needed. Duress and fear was manipulative. I consider her brave. Jesus was willing to heal all who came to him then and now. She was shunned. I appreciate how accurate she answered about mega churches being a business . So, she rightly adresses the pay to play. However, the Bible says not to make favorites of anyone.
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the [f]Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” 14 Blessed are those who [g]do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 [h]But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." (Revelation 22:12- 15). These and not the words of any pastor, they are not even the words of Paul or any of the other disciples but are the Words of the Lord Jesus Himself (in red). If anyone truly values themselves and their eternal destiny then they should seek the Creator for understanding and enlightenment and not any church or pastor as to whether they are in right standing with their Creator. When I hear people going on about churches and pastors and not the Creator, then I know that they have never truly met their Creator! In a court of law we all expect justice from corrupt and mortal beings but then think we can delude ourselves into thinking that a righteous, holy and immortal Divine Being will not require justice from His own Creation!!! The epitome of delusion and wishful thinking.
Just because we have feelings for a specific sexual preference doesn't make it okay. Where do we draw the line? For example, a pedophile, we all know it's unnatural for them to desire toddlers and minors, and most would agree that's not right, but people who have feelings for the same sex, while it might seem harmless, it's still a form of moral failure and should be taught from a young age that it's unnatural and should be discouraged.
And once again, conflating two things that don't belong together that further proves your ignorance and inherent HYPOCRISY IN RELIGION. Can't pray away the gay, especially since there is no God. BTW, your people, the religious people, they're the ones with the HIGHEST percentage of pedophilia, good try though.
I just don’t get how you can’t look up your church’s view on lgbtq questions. I specifically remember easily finding it on the internet when I was a teenager collecting some info about hillsong church (I was/am not a member). I feel sorry for anyone being abused but that part of the story for me is bullsh*t.
This expose smears together various cult like churches with knowing Jesus in a free way. Well some search for what they want to hear. Oh, by the way dealing with covert narcissist, you gonna need Jesus to navigate these demons! 🙏🏾❤️
Look who's talking, you're projecting and don't even realize it. If you really believe that there's an invisible man in the sky that will help you, with anything, you're delusional. If there was a God, it WOULDN'T HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE.
As Christians we need to follow the Word and abide by it. God is love and acceptance, but when we change the Christian teaching so we can live and do as we desire, we aren't following the Word and no longer on the path of straight and narrow. Jesus was all about loving the sinner with the intent of guiding back to the right path... as we witness in the bible of the many transformations. The modern church seems to have forgotten this and has buckeled under the pressure of modern culture which promotes anything goes and we are to accept it all. Christian or not. This is not what Jesus taught. His example was of love and forgiveness through repentance. It seems many forget this and want to have all the glory without doing the hard work. From a Christian perspective we are all born w sin but to accept and live in that sin is the work we all need to do. This pasture was a fake and hypocrite and abused his power. This mega churches are so disturbing to me on so many levels. I know good faithful Christians who live a gay lifestyle and they are great people. However, if we are to call ourselves Christians then this lifestyle goes against the teachings, history of the Bible and ine must be willing to accept this and be willing to do the inner work. It's in this work that we are acting and being Christians. Seems many Christians have forgotten that and become lazy. Of course, Jesus loved all, but he commands us to go beyond our greed, selfishness, bodily desires to enter the Kingdom. No matter what the 'sin' is. Especially during times like today where kids are being groomed in schools, films, etc.... and the trans movement is being pushed everywhere, the church should be the last place to accept this and protect the children at all cost to it's reputation... which it seems to be more concerned about... money... so it's adapting the word and laws to fit the mainstream trends. Sorry but this isn't Christianity. I see this happening in my own church. It's sad and will be the death of the church. Not of the faith, bit of the church because it will become like every other institution in America... corrupted by the lust for wealth and lose it's purpose in society. And that's OK because church is in our hearts and home and in how we live by the word. All the best to everyone.
Narcissistic behaviour is everywhere snd has been from the beginning of humankind - so of course you find it in the church like everywhere so this is nothing new
It's because hillsong is for hillsong.They're not standing on biblical truth that is written in the word of God. There are so many churches like this out there. I've been a part of 2 cults. Everything looks good when you 1st start going to the service, then you get behind the scenes and you realize what's really going on.
Trying to separate them because you don't want people to notice that you're part of the problem, still makes you part of the problem. The "word of God," is a BS fairytale made-up by human men. God doesn't exist.
I think the church is really going to struggle now Saturn is in Pisces. The problem with systems like this is the problem of how to assign 'favour'. Christianity is not that complex. There is not much complexity or nuance that Christianity allows within it's paradigm. It would be possible to create by allowing it to expand into philosophy and psychology. But what comes from the bible is really suited to people that were barely literate such as when it was written. Because of this, it is hard to create a meritocracy in Christianity. In the absense of a meritocracy, the way favour (promotion etc.) is assigned has to be in group preference and loyalty. Which inevitably creates toxicity. As it also does in many workplaces. I fell out with the Christian church. They told me they still like me. But I ask way too many questions. Also, I cannot get behind the idea that astrology is some sort of evil practice. You know what's an evil practice? Paedophilia. Not teen girl that read their starsigns. Where it all leads to me is that Christianity prays daily for new followers. And then has super close minded practices that will mean that any new follower like the type that would be attracted to spirituality (open minded people) will not be able to tolerate it. I seriously think as Saturn makes it's way through Pisces the religious pattern in mainstream Christianity, the "secret space program" grifters (new age groups talking about ET's) and a certain brand of religious fervour attached to politics on both sides. Will take a serious dive.
Megachurches are businesses. The pastors are often paid so much more than the average priest of any other religion. Here is Australia we have megachurches and their financial records are public. They are multi million dollar entities. An Anglican priest is paid around $30K per year, Pastors of megachurches are paid around $300k. The ones I know of own multiple properties, and use Tithing money to build their portfolios. The pastors are always travelling to other cities and countries supposedly for meetings and conferences but the time they spend in each destination is often a holiday with a couple of hours attending to church business, they stay in expensive hotels, etc. Meanwhile, their members struggle to make ends meet.
Kingdomcity is like this a relative newcomer on this scene
ALL churches are businesses. FFS Catholics have the Vatican City which is actually a COUNTRY inside Italy, the REAL country. Vatican City doesn't have to follow Italy's rules or laws despite being IN the country of Italy, so basically they get to do whatever the hell they want without consequence. They also take in BILLIONS and pay ZERO TAXES, and the Vatican has a BANK in the building. If they're not a business they wouldn't need their own bank.
Yeppers,look at Joel Olsteen, Joyce Meyers, credlo dollar and the list goes on and on. Deconverting at 62
Thank you both for your courage in having and publicizing such an important conversation, through a decolonized lens, no less. It's so necessary, and so brave.
Brave brave young lady. ❤
"The more toxic and dysfunctional a system is the more it's concerned with it's own preservation and less concerned it is with the health and wellbeing of the people within it". Spot on!
Exactly describes our former church!!!!!!!!!!!
I am 57 years old. I have been in the church most my life. I have experienced things I have never had words for. I wrote a book about my life, the church and God. Out of my 57 years this is the best video by far I have ever heard. This video has so much meat in it that it will take me more than one time to watch it. This is the conversation needed to be had in order to understand the difference between a religious institution and GOD. This is the conversation I have waited for, for years. Dr. Ramani always meet you where you are and bring you home. Congratulations to Noemi for finding your truth and having the courage to speak out. I applaud you!
Wow! I liked Hillsong music but had no clue the church is cult like.
Yup. Even more than is shown here. It's heartbreaking.
It's so sad
There were many Hillsong Churches and each differed according to the leadership. Millions have been saved and strengthened in their faith through Hillsong over the decades. No church this Big and diverse is going to be without problems. Satan will always attack an effective ministry. Carl Lenz was certainly a bad apple
@@susettemclachlan8765 And this sort of excuse is part of the problem.
My God Dr Ramani. I’m so proud of you for talking about this
As a ex JW I can absolutely relate to this amazing human being . Keep living your best life ❤🫂🌻💜🌈
I am a 59 feminine lesbian and knew by 9 years old. In my generation many of us forced ourselves to date and try to be straight. In attempting to be straight you quickly learn that straight hetero sex can feel like you allowed yourself to be raped because it feels completely unnatural. For a straight person trying to have same-sex sex would feel just as repulsive but hetero people don't seem to want to accept or comprehend that. I come from a family of pastors so I grew up in church which made it impossible to come out in my teens. When I finally came out to my family at 19 years old, my mother tried throwing me out of the home but my grandmother didn't allow it, thankfully. I still needed to complete my last year of high school so as soon as I could I did leave with my 1st partner.
I am so sorry you went through this 😢 I have separated from the Church and "religion"....I still believe in God and Jesus, but I love everyone. _Everyone._
I'm sending you a BIG hug and much love. I'm so sorry about your family. That had to have been extremely painful. 😓
You are seen, heard and loved!!!
The Bible forbids it.
@@SkiesVibrant I have read the bible from cover to cover and I didn't read anywhere that it is forbidden. Besides the bible was put together 400 years after the time of Jesus, and only certain scriptures written about him and his followers were added. Much of the old testament was not written down, it was passed down through the centuries from generation to generation. The modern day bible has been reinterpreted so many times and changed to suit the ideology of whatever church that uses it to preach from.
How does a Church that rejects all extramarital and homosexual acts, in accordance with their Scriptures, better relate to the gay community?
I have never had any association with Hillsong, and I have heard negative things about them.
Who would represent gay people in a reconciled relationship? What concessions or changes could churches make?
Sorry if this is addressed. I'm just starting the video. But these are important questions to me.
What a fantastic interview…it is rare for me to find a story I relate to THIS MUCH, right down to being tricked/forced into basically a group exorcism, good lord…thank you thank you thank you both for this.
First of all when ur born into something u don’t know any better. Thk God this woman’s smarts & intuition guided her out of this FALSE teachings….noemi u r so brave u have validated everything I’ve been thinking for years…it’s a long story but this interview has changed my life. ❤
Instead of it being like Coachella I'd like to relate it to Fyre Festival
I mean only if it burns and crushes in a spectacular fashion! :D Sadly, so far it's still a well put-together business venture.
Narcissists utilize religion to wield power. Every cult leader is a narcissist .
Jesus said: "...If you want to be my disciple, you need to deny yourself, pick up your daily cross and follow me..."
i almost eneded my life agfter all the abuse from religion and the united penticostal church
The number of religious nuts in these comments ignoring the actual body of this podcast episode and invalidating Noemi's experience with religious trauma really proves her point.
Precisely! It's a religious circle-jerk.
This discussion was such a pleasure to listen to.
Growing up within mormonism, as an undiagnosed Autistic queer person, there are SO many similarities listening to Noemi’s story.
Mormonism is another religion synonymous with narcissism.
ALL religions are narcissistic.
Wish i could connect with Noemi, I am an older Hispana lesbian sister in Christ, who experienced much of what she went through.
I am so sorry for what you went through 😢 I am a believer and I'm straight, but I love you~ Sister!
I'm sorry the "Church" has failed you by being horrible....a complete rejection of what Jesus taught!
It all comes down to Love. Full stop. ❤
Thank you for bringing this to light. I am sorry you went through this.
The church (nondenominational) I married my narcissist ex husband in had a pastor like this, and leaders. They were the "Untouchables". A member had to go through a leader to get to the pastor and many times the pastor had no time for you. I was told by youth pastors that if a youth/kid didn't have talents that could be used by the church, then they wouldn't waste their time with them. 😢 That was heart-shattering. And many times my talents were used but trying to create meaningful relationships with the other members who were also serving was incredibly difficult. I kept thinking something was wrong with me, a reason people seemed to hold me at arms length. It was very hurtful. Not to mention that when I spoke up in small groups at this church, the horrific things that were happening in my marriage, I was told to pray harder, read scripture more, give my abusive ex more sex, save him through my unconditional respect & submission as his wife.
Good grief.
My ex stopped going to church 6 years in and he made it very difficult for me to attend other churches, among other things....but I'm grateful because if I would have tried to leave my ex while attending, I probably would have been guilted and shamed into staying in that abusive marriage. Many people have this happen. It's horrific how the church encourages victims to stay in abuse because the church doesn't want to be known for having divorces. Many don't care about the individual and the hell they are living in.
Ugh....my heart.
You are right and it is sad. There are many narcissistic men in church, and instead of bringing them to order, some people in church enable them. The sad part is they don't teach their members to read scripture, this enables them to add and subtract and distort God's word. It is important for everyone who wants to follow Jesus and who follows Jesus to read their bible for themselves. I hope you are doing well and things are better now for you and your children.
I wanna start a church with you, Noemi! :) I'm joking of course, but also not. I want someone to start a church (and get it to be really successful) which preaches empathy, acceptance, equality, comradery, and-most importantly-decolonization of our minds, muddied by old hierarchies and their oppression.
I am very very happy for this beautiful young lady. This ended up being a tremendous blessing for her. I’m glad that her family supported her and mom needs a trophy for standing up in church to support her daughter. This is absolutely wonderful.
Y’all want to change Christianity. You don’t have to be a Christian. You don’t have to be anything. Do you want to change Christianity.
The policies are written in the Bible. The scripture. You went to a church and they didn’t affirm your LGBTQ and you were surprised? You don’t have to agree with that, but they don’t have to agree with you either.
Great interview so far, very hard to listen to...all of this is very cultish. Sad you had to go through this. I loved how you could be so calm in the midst of so much judgment.
Hillsong parallel to Animal Farm the book took advantage of cultural ignorance.
So glad someone like you is covering this. I personally went to a church that they would make frequent appearances at and that church got exposed just shortly after for narcissism. The head pastor who has been accused of narcissism, abuse to the staff, among other things that someone in his place shouldn’t be doing…is now suing the church after being sued himself. It’s a mess! He and his wife are very well known in the city the church is located. It’s really sad because pretty much everyone in the city even if you didn’t go to the church knew about the church. It’s disappointing and sad.
Dr. Ramani I wanted to give an opinion on something you said about pastor's not having nice things until everyone has something. I don't think that's a fair requirement. I grew up a pastor's daughter and there were lean years and plentiful years. Pastoring is a calling but it's also a career and how they put food on the table. I don't agree with Hillsong's ostentatious displays of wealth, but it isn't fair to expect pastor's to work 40+ hours a week and struggle financially. It's like saying that you can't be financially stable until all your patients are financially stable. Just some thoughts.
Thank you for talking about toxicity in Christianity. It can be the most damaging experience. I actually left my ultra-conservative religion because of this. Thank you for all you do.
👍
Thanks for contradicting yourself and proving their point.
Noemi, you are so warm hearted, intelligent, brave young person. Wish you all the best
I am glad Noemi got to talk it out, but you never really addressed Hillsong or the problems with it. Narcism and the church is a recent occurrence, and it comes from USA, not Australia. They have been robbing us of our voice, so we have no voice. We have been warning people about Hillsong including Hillsong but they don't listen. You don't hear our cry, you don't hear our pain, and you certainly don't hear our suffering, because we realised long ago, you don't care. Had New Zealand did something about Frank Houston and His pedophilia, they might have sparred our children. We don't like the sex abuse, we don't like pedophilia, we don't like the criminality, we don't like the cults, we don't like the celebritism and we don't like how they tried to take over our nation. We can't stand that brand of christianity, because its not God. There is nothing wrong with our true Christianity, which is different from what people see or are led to believe, which was oppressive, or our spirituality, or our voice, or the way we express ourselves, or our identity, or the way we grieve because our nation is grieving, and we will continual to do so, until we are healed because we are hurting beyond measure. The Home style christianity, came from me, the need to belong, came from me and us together and its a cry to our belonging problem we have in our nation, they just took it and ran with it, but they don't know how to do it, because it didn't come from them, they just copied it, because they are an airport, more than they are home. The situation with Hillsong, is beyond measure sad, and the world supports them, more than Australia. Majority of people that go to Hillsong belong to the World, who have pushed Australians out so we have no place, nor space, no belonging, so we go bush, I get to be with the Kangies. I am not blaming Hillsong for the pedophilia problem we have in Australia, nor the covering up, that is what happens, when you oppress people. I am not blaming them for the criminiality or the cults, but we are holding them accountable for what they did and saying No and No more. Message to US and the world, stop robbing us of our voice, we don't like it.
Narcissism and religion/church is NOT a recent occurrence, it's been part of religion since the religions were formed. And it doesn't just come from the US, it comes from EVERY country. Christianity is inherently bad, that's where the stuff you're projecting onto others come from. If you're not blaming those that are causing the problem (Hillsong) then YOU'RE part of the problem. WTF are you talking about? The US isn't robbing you, from another CONTINENT, of anything, it's happens from WITHIN not from without. Blame the real problem, your precious Christianity, because that's where it's coming from.
You have amazing wisdom and discernment
I love your voice. Just listening to you feels healing to my soul. ❤ I appreciate you and all the work you do. THANK YOU!!❤❤❤ You're a true Earth Angel.
I'm from New Zealand and I've never heard of Hillsong.
You should be so lucky..😅...Hillsong huge in Australia...
I raised my daughters in Church. 23 year after accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior year 2000. I served big time in the youth and had many leaders telling me what to do but I did see many children raised Christian get married with men to later divorce and marry a woman. One of them my pastors own daughter. mostly all the young girls in the church went gay. I loved this teaching. Beautiful your story. Yes I did see lack of love in the Church and alottttt of narcissism. I attracting them all I had to really overcome codependency. Lolllll but thank God now I know Jesus and Dr. Ramani with psychology wowww do we need psychology or else Church phony people will eat us aliveeeee. God bless your heart. I also have not gone to Church in 3 years but I love TBN
23 years in the Lord is quite a while to be fair.
"Do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore, whoever chooses to be a friend of the world renders himself an enemy of God." (James 4:4)
Amen
The spiritual abuse and gaslighting is rampant in these kind of religious systems, isn't it?
Amen 🙏
This was a tough episode, her upbringing failed her and left her lost to be easily fooled by any manipulative environments, in my opinion including the gender stuff she discovered in university.
The 'gender stuff' isn't manipulative, there is actual research and scientific basis in gender studies.
Agree
@@pjihae No, there isn't.
@@victorialadybug1 yes, there is. It is no one else's problem if you choose to remain ignorant.
This person is so strong I wish I was like this . She should out her own church. It’s very inspiring. So brave ❤
I've always had a bad feeling about Hillsong, that it was very manipulative.
The narcissist I was married to is a Uniting Church minister. . Turned out that that Church was just as bad.
I have no time for any church now, handle with extreme care, don't ever blindly trust, be very discerning. The church is full of narcissists & their awful enablers.
What happened at Hillsong is inexcusable, but LGBTQ lifestyle is a sin as well. Whole cities were destroyed because of such sins, read Genesis 18 from verse 16 on and chapter 19 the whole chapter Sodom and Gomorrah. Also Romans 1:18-32 talks about many sins including the sin of homosexuality. Some things we cannot rationalize or ignore, and they are not a matter of opinion but a matter of truth. Whether the person is heterosexual but engages in life of sin(adultery, fornication, lying, murder, cheating, scamming people etc...)or engages in the LGBTQ lifestyle they are both under condemnation. There is, however, hope and forgiveness in Jesus Christ for He and only Him is willing to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We have to repent from our sinful lives and come to Christ believing in His righteousness and power to forgive us and make us righteous before God through faith in Him. The folks who have caused all this damage to all these dear people will have to give an account to God for their evil deeds. It was not God's will for these people to be hurt and abused the way they did. Satan, the father of lies and adversary of our souls is he who causes such pain and misery and God ends up paying for it. The Bible clearly says that: "It's not God's will that anyone perish but that all men come to repentance." Amen.
I'm so sorry you felt so bad you had to go to a psychiatric hospital. This is one of the terrible things that happen when these awful people have too much influence. You become very sick phsically & a shell of yourself mentally.
Am Christian . . Listen to dr rimimi re:NARCISSISM. Great Doctor. Sad about hillsong . Darlene got out in time . Many churches like this . Watch your back at church but NEVER
BLAME GOD. margaret
Howdy! I’m a queer Christian in Boston, and I’ve had good luck with First Church Somerville UCC and the Cathedral Church of St. Paul. Both congregations put queer folks front and center!
Are you kidding me?!! You don't force someone to let you pray over them!!!
I am a Christian and will be forever, and I am with you, Noemi, that none of this stuff was right, from beginning to end. Noemi, so very courageous from so young! Hats off!
1 hour 11mins in… boom 💥
Such a great answer
This is a bunch of baloney. I was a congregant. This is a bunch of baloney. You want the church to represent you not God.
It's so terrible when having this type of authority is used to exploit and abuse people. Jesus didn't even have a place to rest His head when He ministered, preached, healed, and helped. For Him it was about God's love and salvation not about riches and kingdoms. Its sad that churches abuse because they are entitled. I've been a minister and saw the corruption and decided to use my education and experience to help people and my community away from the bureaucracy and political restraints.
I can't wrap my mind around the idea that there are people who believe that money can purchase spirituality and God's approval. I was raised in a church where we paid tithing, so I sorta get that, but the clergy were unpaid volunteers, so I can't fathom providing a cushy lifestyle for a pastor! 😂
If you know something about yourself is incompatible with teaching or you just don't want to do the teaching go somewhere else. . I don't blame those ppl for their beliefs. I don't let them blame me for mine.
Thank you for this amazing interview. I would like to share something with Noemi. I'm a church musician for 27 years and I substituted at a UCC church last Sunday (Unitef Church of Christ). The whole town was celebrating LGBTQ affirming. There were flags everywhere and signs indicated this. I was expecting maybe young people at the church that might represent this population. There were mostly older parishioners in the pews. I was very impressed that the Pastor lady asked everyone to publicly affirm and welcome all members of the LGBTQ community. They spent at least 5 - 10 min affirming in great detail their acceptance. So, I worked like to recommend this denomination for Noemi. I actually worked at a church that was a fusion of Durch Reformed and UCC and we had openly gay members of the congregation warmly embraced and welcomed. Good luck with everything, Melissa Manning :-)
Grow up !!!
Please also bring ex-members of false Indian Gurus like Sathya Sai Baba, Isha etc
Noemi seems like a lovely, good person. Beautiful.
I agree on Dr. Ramani's break down dynnamics.😢.
This resonated with me so much.
Can you imagine reading this book as a bedtime story to a 6 year old? Raptured: A Novel on the Second Coming of the Lord Book by Ernest Angley
Literally my mother would sit on the edge of the bed and read this to my sister and I.
I was raised in an Assembly of God church. My mother was the church secretary for my elementary school years. She left that job and went to work at A/G Headquarters in Springfield, MO where she retired, she now lives in an A/G Assisted Living facility. We are estranged, because I confronted her about her narcissism. (I'm much better off)
After having that horrific book read to me and my sister, I had utter and complete separation anxiety. I refused to let my parents out of my sight. Not even aware that I was clinging tightly to my abuser.
I have (we all have) been witness to the falling of grace from all of these religious leaders. When I was a kid if was Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart (these two were watched daily by my mom and had them blasting through out the whole house so everyone had to listen to it.) I could write a book... and have thought about doing so often. But, I'd much rather have my mental freedom and move on.
My mother was the EXACT same way! I'm completely no contact now at 39 yrs old. She used god and the Bible as an excuse to beat me and abuse me my whole life
I'm over the "church."
@@MissManaged84 I’m sorry that you know how it feels.
It’s psychological abuse.
Beautiful story 🙏✨🙏✨🙏✨
Manipulative church.
As a Christian I am appalled that what she is saying mostly true and common. Let me categorically say, tithing is not biblical. It was a description not a prescription. This also goes against the teaching of scripture not to give preferential treatment for the rich. Dr. Ramani is right, we are all equal and all sinners before a holy God. These people are charlatans and liars. I grew up witnessing and experiencing religious abuse and thank God I have learned to read my bible, been exposed to authentic Christian leaders and praise be to God, my family is coming out little by little. Praise God. I wish you the best dear and I hope you are ok.
I'm so glad you discussed this topic, Dr Ramini! It was very validating, thank you. I lived this experience a few years ago and I too left a narc company in 2019. It hurt me so deeply that I didn't apply to work at any company for a year. I still have residual thoughts of suing the company once in a while, but that seems like it would be wasted energy. Thanks again and to Ugo, for sharing his wisdom/experiences.
Noemi, you sre truly an excellent teacher, too. You break down the right terms every time without making assumltions or having to be asked. Could teaching be your gift? You certainly have what it takes to be a leader.
Wow so much wisdom and so brave and strong . Thank you for sharing. I m sorry that Thies happend to you. In tue Name of GOD, very cruel things where and are happening in thus Planet. you help thausends of People, even here in Europe where i live. Thank you 🎶💫🌍☀️🌟💜
Dr. Ramani - I just wanted to let you know that the color of the dress you wore for this episode is absolutely beautiful on you. It really compliments your skin tone.
What an amazing conversation!
Noemi - Thank you for sharing your insight and wisdom.
I admire your strength.
Yep. You can serve there for six years. Once you leave, you won’t even get a phone call.
I liked her statement that they were playing at church not actually having church. So sad.
Wow, I am sorry about the spiritual abuse you suffered.
Great conversation. These cultures need to be exposed.
I think she us the whitest black person i have ever seen. I would have guessed she was some mix of asian and europeian. ❤
She’s black?
She is indigenous and, guessing by her name, likely Hispanic.
So happy to see this topic on Hillsong.
Let God be true and EVERY man a liar. Romans 3:4
Amen 🙏
Amen..
How can u connect your crying with not possibly God touching your heart showing u something u r bound by just Like someone who is bound by things that isn't the heart of God for humanity do you align your faith In God with his word for us all it sounds like you only take parts of his love to suit you like many of us do do fit our lifestyles not his for his people ♥
Even what you said about tithes is a lie it's like your having only your say but nothing is aligning with God and the truth we all give account before God alone no one will be standing before God with anyone The Pastors will give account by themselves so will u n so will I nothing u have said gives peace
Sounds like u r twisting Gods Word 2 suit yourself
I’m sorry that you and many others have experienced the pain and careless treatment from those that claim to follow Jesus. In a perfect world it wouldn’t happen.
Jesus takes all of our sins so seriously, that he fulfilled prophecy by dying on the cross in order that all believers in the gospel, will be saved from God’s wrath. Believers must keep their heart, soul and mind on Christ …not the faults of other believers. We all sin and fall short of God’s standard of perfection. Believe the Gospel of Salvation. According to the inspired Word of God, the Bible, Christ has the authority to save you after He becomes Lord and Savior of your life!
Human doctrines that fail too often give men the pass. The young lady was not given opportunities she needed. Duress and fear was manipulative. I consider her brave. Jesus was willing to heal all who came to him then and now. She was shunned. I appreciate how accurate she answered about mega churches being a business . So, she rightly adresses the pay to play. However, the Bible says not to make favorites of anyone.
If God existed, this crap simply wouldn't happen.
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the [f]Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” 14 Blessed are those who [g]do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 [h]But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." (Revelation 22:12- 15). These and not the words of any pastor, they are not even the words of Paul or any of the other disciples but are the Words of the Lord Jesus Himself (in red). If anyone truly values themselves and their eternal destiny then they should seek the Creator for understanding and enlightenment and not any church or pastor as to whether they are in right standing with their Creator. When I hear people going on about churches and pastors and not the Creator, then I know that they have never truly met their Creator!
In a court of law we all expect justice from corrupt and mortal beings but then think we can delude ourselves into thinking that a righteous, holy and immortal Divine Being will not require justice from His own Creation!!! The epitome of delusion and wishful thinking.
Just because we have feelings for a specific sexual preference doesn't make it okay. Where do we draw the line? For example, a pedophile, we all know it's unnatural for them to desire toddlers and minors, and most would agree that's not right, but people who have feelings for the same sex, while it might seem harmless, it's still a form of moral failure and should be taught from a young age that it's unnatural and should be discouraged.
And once again, conflating two things that don't belong together that further proves your ignorance and inherent HYPOCRISY IN RELIGION. Can't pray away the gay, especially since there is no God. BTW, your people, the religious people, they're the ones with the HIGHEST percentage of pedophilia, good try though.
Noemi, you would be most welcome in Unitarian Universalist faith. Look us up.
You mean religion? They're all inherently this way, including yours.
I just don’t get how you can’t look up your church’s view on lgbtq questions. I specifically remember easily finding it on the internet when I was a teenager collecting some info about hillsong church (I was/am not a member). I feel sorry for anyone being abused but that part of the story for me is bullsh*t.
Maybe they put that up after
This expose smears together various cult like churches with knowing Jesus in a free way. Well some search for what they want to hear. Oh, by the way dealing with covert narcissist, you gonna need Jesus to navigate these demons! 🙏🏾❤️
Look who's talking, you're projecting and don't even realize it. If you really believe that there's an invisible man in the sky that will help you, with anything, you're delusional. If there was a God, it WOULDN'T HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE.
As Christians we need to follow the Word and abide by it. God is love and acceptance, but when we change the Christian teaching so we can live and do as we desire, we aren't following the Word and no longer on the path of straight and narrow. Jesus was all about loving the sinner with the intent of guiding back to the right path... as we witness in the bible of the many transformations. The modern church seems to have forgotten this and has buckeled under the pressure of modern culture which promotes anything goes and we are to accept it all. Christian or not. This is not what Jesus taught. His example was of love and forgiveness through repentance. It seems many forget this and want to have all the glory without doing the hard work. From a Christian perspective we are all born w sin but to accept and live in that sin is the work we all need to do. This pasture was a fake and hypocrite and abused his power. This mega churches are so disturbing to me on so many levels. I know good faithful Christians who live a gay lifestyle and they are great people. However, if we are to call ourselves Christians then this lifestyle goes against the teachings, history of the Bible and ine must be willing to accept this and be willing to do the inner work. It's in this work that we are acting and being Christians. Seems many Christians have forgotten that and become lazy. Of course, Jesus loved all, but he commands us to go beyond our greed, selfishness, bodily desires to enter the Kingdom. No matter what the 'sin' is. Especially during times like today where kids are being groomed in schools, films, etc.... and the trans movement is being pushed everywhere, the church should be the last place to accept this and protect the children at all cost to it's reputation... which it seems to be more concerned about... money... so it's adapting the word and laws to fit the mainstream trends. Sorry but this isn't Christianity. I see this happening in my own church. It's sad and will be the death of the church. Not of the faith, bit of the church because it will become like every other institution in America... corrupted by the lust for wealth and lose it's purpose in society. And that's OK because church is in our hearts and home and in how we live by the word.
All the best to everyone.
JEREMIAH17:5 👉📖
Narcissistic behaviour is everywhere snd has been from the beginning of humankind - so of course you find it in the church like everywhere so this is nothing new
It's because hillsong is for hillsong.They're not standing on biblical truth that is written in the word of God. There are so many churches like this out there. I've been a part of 2 cults. Everything looks good when you 1st start going to the service, then you get behind the scenes and you realize what's really going on.
Trying to separate them because you don't want people to notice that you're part of the problem, still makes you part of the problem. The "word of God," is a BS fairytale made-up by human men. God doesn't exist.
Grow up!
You religious people really need to.
I think the church is really going to struggle now Saturn is in Pisces.
The problem with systems like this is the problem of how to assign 'favour'. Christianity is not that complex. There is not much complexity or nuance that Christianity allows within it's paradigm. It would be possible to create by allowing it to expand into philosophy and psychology. But what comes from the bible is really suited to people that were barely literate such as when it was written. Because of this, it is hard to create a meritocracy in Christianity. In the absense of a meritocracy, the way favour (promotion etc.) is assigned has to be in group preference and loyalty. Which inevitably creates toxicity. As it also does in many workplaces.
I fell out with the Christian church. They told me they still like me. But I ask way too many questions. Also, I cannot get behind the idea that astrology is some sort of evil practice. You know what's an evil practice? Paedophilia. Not teen girl that read their starsigns.
Where it all leads to me is that Christianity prays daily for new followers. And then has super close minded practices that will mean that any new follower like the type that would be attracted to spirituality (open minded people) will not be able to tolerate it. I seriously think as Saturn makes it's way through Pisces the religious pattern in mainstream Christianity, the "secret space program" grifters (new age groups talking about ET's) and a certain brand of religious fervour attached to politics on both sides. Will take a serious dive.