I actually am very split on Zelda 2. I don't think it's great, but I like a lot of the ideas it introduced. I would have liked to see them try another game in this style. Not the CDI games, but a proper Nintendo game in the same style
Zelda II is one of my favorite NES games (along with the first, or course). The combat and momentum is so slick that it gives the game such a strong replay value to me. I love all the combat encounters and magic management, it's so fun. For an '87 game, it's insanely good and definitely the most well-executed examples of 2D combat out there, as well as the best ARPG. The graphics and puzzles probably are the biggest shortcoming of the game, but I've played it enough that it doesn't really bother me personally. I kinda guessed that you wouldn't like this game, based on your previous videos, but oh well.
What I loved the most about Zelda 2, back when I played the vanilla version and did a speed run of it, was how it had a tone of intensity. Outside of towns and stray fairies, almost everything that is out to attack Link truly feels that they want him dead. But I also do see why the side-scrolling style of gameplay for Zelda was never done again in the series. For me, the Zelda games are at their best when unravelling a puzzle box. And that can be the freedom of exploring a world in whatever order one pleases, like in Breath of The Wild or the intricately crafted layers of floors and puzzles in Ocarina of Time. Zelda 2 I find captures a form of challenge in combat that wasn’t really in other Zelda games post the first Zelda game until Breath of the Wild. But because of having that intensity, the great strengths of the Zelda games, the unravelling of a puzzle box, were lost as a result. While I like Zelda 2, I’m aware of how it does have a feeling of being a vanilla flavour of the week action side-scrolling nes game. My first ever Zelda game was Twilight Princess. I have only recently begun playing all the Zelda games, so I may end up finding Zelda 2 to be bland myself once I’ve gotten to the Zelda games I never played in my life. Good job on the video, Pariah659. I can see how and why people can find Zelda 2 to be a boring game. I liked how Zelda 2 tried out simplifying the unravelling of a puzzle box. But I can admit how a lot of what makes the Zelda games great was lost as well. I hope you are doing well, it’s always a pleasure to see a new video from you.
This is a crazy review for me because I agree with pretty much everything you said during... the entire video, basically, but I just don't find it boring. Different strokes, I guess-- I'm one of the few people I know that like this game. I don't even think it's that good, but it's a very unique game and there's very few things out there that are actually like it in a way that's not totally superficial. (The down stab simply existing in a game doesn't make it like Zelda 2 structurally... why is that such a common sentiment?) There are some things I raised my eyebrow at: particularly the thing with "random tile in the woods." The game most definitely does do some bullshit (how could you possibly not talk about New Kasuto explicitly, honestly) but that particular case I think is not very well designed but not terrible. The game tells you through the townspeople that you should look "in woods north of river" and if you're talking to the townspeople actively like you should be, you'll see that. It's why I think the walking complaint doesn't hold as much weight specifically for the towns-- they're there for you to learn as much information as you can and then use that to formulate what you're supposed to do. That's likely why there are forced encounters on squares within that patch of forest. They're there to get in your way trying to search for Bagu. I also disagree with the assessment of the XP system. I'm honestly surprised you don't like it, because you do seem to enjoy the magic system and its meter management and I think they play into the strengths of each other. If you want to use magic effectively you probably will go ahead and prioritize it over the other stats, and because you lose it all on game over I think it creates a nice risk-reward system, especially since you can use leveling up as a alternative form of healing during a pinch. Aside from those things though, I can't say I had any particular complaints. It is interesting to see a fully fleshed out opinion on the whole (for the most part) game. Tangentially, my opinion as to why the game is so different from Zelda 1 is because they decided to lean into their influences (from like, D&D, Ultima, etc.) in a different way that emphasized the action more. Maybe it was also so that Zelda 2 could show it has a larger scope and that this Adventure of Link's if you will is on a grander scale. Who knows, it's just a thought. I will probably go check out the Zelda 1 review too, as I haven't seen it... but this game matters more to me. No normal person types 4 paragraphs about it.
The reason Zelda II is the way it is is because Miyamoto was busy with Super Mario Bros 3 so he only gave vague instructions to the development team of Zelda II. Also, the team originally pitched Zelda II as a spin-off simply named The Adventure of Link (or the Japanese equivalent) because they wanted to make a sidescroller RPG-hybrid but management added "Zelda II" to the title during the last months of development.
Castlevania 2 if it was good. But seriously, I think the simple answer to why this game is like this is that platformers were popular, JRPGs were popular, Zelda was a hit, let's mix all those things together. Not the best idea but at least it taught them a lesson
The game was a sidescroller because Miyamoto really wanted to develop the swordplay of Zelda into something with more depth. He pictured Link as a master swordsman but didn’t think the first game did a great job of capturing that. The addition of experience points and stuff was just furthering the initiative started with Zelda, Metroid and Kid Icarus to fuse tabletop RPG conventions with console action games. Miyamoto was famously quite disappointed with the final product. The enemy sprites are nowhere near as big and cool as he wanted them to be, and while the swordplay is more complex, it still wasn’t the epic jousting matches he pictured in his head. The idea would finally be done justice in Ocarina of Time, which can be thought of as a 3D take on Zelda 2’s one-on-one combat. Nowadays, Miyamoto thinks of Zelda 2 as his weakest game ever. I’ve always remembered how Takashi Tezuka responded when he encountered one of its defenders: “Zelda 2 fans? People like that actually exist?!” lmao 😂
I recently (a few years ago at this point, actually, where has the time gone?) made a list of what I've gathered to be the "must-play" games of gaming history and have been slowly chipping away at it, and I ended up having pretty much the same opinion on this game once I got to it. Zelda 1 had issues, but I largely had a good time with it and can see myself going back to it; I didn't get very far in Zelda 2, and I couldn't put into words why. You did so and it feels obvious to me now that I simply just got bored. I thought it had to just be me, because I get bored of plenty of good games that I'm just not in the mood for at any given time, but I can see looking back that I'm just NEVER in the mood to play this game. I sometimes want to go back for the swordplay, but that would mean interacting with the rest of the game and I'd rather avoid that than potentially having fun with the game, and I think that says it all about the game. It's too bad, because there's definitely cool stuff there; we got the legendary Temple theme that 90% of people know from Smash, and Dark Link who was every edgy teenager's favorite Zelda character in the early 2000s. I think most people agree that it would at least be interesting if nothing else to see Nintendo return to this formula and improve upon it.
What are some other ones? I haven't made a list, but I'm going through a lot of old games, right now it's unreal, as well as skyrim and world of assassination
@@tivvy2vs21 It's quite a long list, it goes back to essentially the beginning of gaming as I'm looking at it from a historical point of view. If you've got twitter or someplace for me to DM you it'd be easier for me to send it there
The comment that I was typing on the previous was mostly about the differences I saw in your Zelda 1 Redux footage. I played this game almost how you're playing it right now, which was a wonderful experience. Zelda 1 I played it with Zelda HD Remaster on Mesen, which didn't change the gameplay but was pretty great. The house of Bagu/Bug is totally hinted at, especially in Redux. The towns-people basically spell out every secret and I never had an issue with navigating or knowing what to do next. I'm surprised that you missed that. In the original translation I can understand the cryptic complaints by people playing it but I really thought Redux would make that impossible haha.
25:00 There's something about that delivery of this line that it makes me laugh so much, unexpectedly made my night, I love your way of expressing in your vids, also a reason why I subscribed.
So, I've got super thick nostalgia goggles on for this game. Even now I still like it, BUT I can also see where you're coming from. Especially if you go into it blind. Back in the day most of us sat around talking about what we figured out in games, and that's how you were supposed to learn about necessary NPC's like Bug and Error. It is hard to go back to, with it's endless walking around and cryptic 80's bullshit, but I still love it. ALTTP is still the GOAT though. That came out and just blew the first two games out of the water. It was also the first game I knew of that had a difficulty toggle, where you could turn the blinking map points off if you wanted a more Zelda 1 like experience. So, while I'm sorry you didn't like 2, I'm really looking forward to you playing ALTTP.
Well, you certainly got me with the last few minutes. Before the theme was that this game isn't so bad, but also not as good as Zelda 1. And then you're just ripping it apart. Damn.
Might be worth noting this was not intended as a "Legend of Zelda" game. Sure, they used Zelda's name for marketing purposes (in the same way "Yoshi's Island" was branded "Super Mario World 2,") but when you look at the box art for the first two games back to back, "The ADVENTURE of LINK" is branded very similarly to "The LEGEND of ZELDA." It's possible that if Zelda 2 performed better, this could've been a point where the franchise splits in half. Every game in the *Legend of Zelda* series would be an isometric adventure, but every game in the *Adventure of Link* series would be a sidescroller. Just something fun to think about.
I remember playing Zelda 2 for like a month straight, and not because I loved it. For those who don't know, Zelda games keep track of the number of times you've died with a number on your save file. Being a bit of a perfectionist, I'm always determined to keep that number at "000." Well, Zelda 2 is one of the most infuriating games to get a no-death run on, because it *also counts saving the game as "dying."* So you essentially have to play the whole game in one sitting, in a game that starts you off with two lives, has only ten or so extra lives to pick up, and is riddled with bottomless pits and cheap enemy placement. Zelda 2 isn't a long game to complete, but doing it in one sitting without getting a Game Over is a goddamn nightmare.
I stopped playing the Resident Evil 1 remake for similar reasons you expressed for Zelda 2. It was quite tense for the time I was exploring the ground floor, first floor, and basement of the mansion but when all of the monsters had been slain, I found myself getting stuck and trying to find the next point of progression for HOURS with no luck; It got so bad that me, trying to to play in the dark for an enhanced atmosphere, instead became drowsy and on the verge of falling asleep, which I rarely feel because of insomnia. Never been back to it since.
If you were playing the 1996 release I could understand getting stuck, but in the Remake your map shows locked doors and tells whether you collected all items in a certain area or not, getting stuck for more than an hour with no objective is quite unlikely. (Unless you don't read the files spread giving you information)
I would love to see a series like this for the from software games. Like demon souls, dark souls 1-3, bloodbourn. I think the gameplay in those games, and their level design is super interesting. Beyond it being hard.
Everything before demons souls would honestly be much more interesting. Recent From has been covered for death and outside of a small dedicated armored core following, nobody cares about their other works, which are all compelling
the first adventure time game by wayforward (hey ice king, why’d you steal our garbage?!) is another good one. be warned, it takes place earlier in the series, having the earlier seasons’s tone, along with moments that aged poorly
The NPC's in the towns tell you all types of stuff. The ones that are sleeping you have to nag them to talk. Also, you have to remember this game is a product of its time, this is when people were reading Game Manuals from the box, Nintendo power magazine, and talking about secrets in these games on the school bus. It was a different time.
I owned this game as a kid and I never found that guy hidden in the forest. I knew I was looking for him from some other clue but I just never found him. I enjoyed the game up until that point and I was always disappointed that I couldn't get further.
Saying Zelda 2 is nice in the title, an interesting controversial opinion, I have to watch. Around 3 minutes in talking about level up systems. Most games I'm not a big fan of level up systems. However, Zelda 2 makes it work because while there is some exploring, the game is very structured (and honestly seems like it planted the seeds for the structured gameplay of future Zeldas. Skyward Sword being the strongest example). You're still going to want to explore every place to get more items, but if you get lost (which can be easy in certain parts) you'll still get rewarded for just killing things, especially since it's harder to avoid enemies in this game which is interesting since most Zeldas it's usually a viable option to just ignore all fights as long as they don't lock a door. 5:13 Some years ago I heard somewhere that Zelda 2 was originally going to be a different game entirely, but at some point they decided to put Link in there instead at some point as development changed a bunch. Honestly, I wonder what would have happened if they stuck with that. Perhaps this game wouldn't have been criticized so much, and Nintendo might have had another game series in their arsenal. 8:20 Similar to Skyward Sword. I feel the swordplay is one of the things that is done very well. Unfortunately like Skyward Sword, the rest of your items are practically useless for 90% of most combat fights. This is a good thing, but I do hope at some point that allow you to combine this, with Wind Waker's ability to just use many different types of items for many different effects on different enemies, just rewarding you for doing things better, but still allowing people to just mash the sword attack if they don't want to think 'cuz they want the story/ to explore. 9:40ish I feel like that's a thing specifically for the knights be cause it makes things feel more intense. However they probably should've made you fight them less often, or give some sort of telegraph. Also for anyone struggling with that part shown in the video, break the blocks so you can jump in that tiny little hole so you can do the jump attacks. It'll still be hard, and if you mess up, it'll make it really hard. 9:57 I think the way they attack is fine, because you're able to react to the position of their arms before they swing every time. 10:13 Lack of exploration is a thing. It feels more like this game wants you to do traditional exploring in the open world, then focus more on combat in side scrolling parts. Also side scrolling parts makes you have to have an emphasis on the map layout a lot more than Zelda 1 for sure. 12:10 I feel they were trying to make the world feel bigger by making there be an overworld thing. I personally don't quite care for when games do this. If the change is not seemless, it just further emphasizes the changes in gameplay for better or worse. Luckily, the overworld part isn't something you mess around with much. In Zelda 2, it feels like it's more of taking a breather from the other type of gameplay, after all while Zelda 2 isn't as hard as people say it is, it's still a bit tougher than the average Zelda. People need a chance to relax after trying their butt off all the time. 13:50 Again, small overworld, very linear. It doesn't take that much time to see each area. 14:50 I thought this part was pretty neat. I think it took me 5-10 minutes of exploring the forest since someone tells you that you need to meet someone is hiding in the forest by a river. So I went there, figured I had to comb the forest. Also, when you get near that tile, you get the little hoppy guys which you normally don't fight in that area so you get an idea you are getting close. Again, the overworld is not that large. I've seen some games do this same thing, but make it so you have to search for literal hours to find something. Still I think they should've done this for an optional upgrade, not part of the main quest. 15:30 Most collectibles have some really vague hint that is kinda like "oh, really that's what you meant by that?" when you do find the collectible. Again, I didn't find a big issue with it as the overworld is pretty small. 17:14 Again, Zelda 2 did the Skyward Sword thing, where 90% of what you do is an emphasis on the sword, and other items are more of an afterthought/tradition. 18:08 The grinding for magic is a thing I hated, but at the same time everytime I ran out of magic, I felt like it was deserved because I wasn't using it properly. The grinding is a punishment for being careless, this makes you care about the way you use magic more in the future. It actually shocks me how well they balance out how much magic you need for where you are at. Most games either punish you too hard, or give you too much, Zelda 2 is one of the very few games where it seems like a very good balance. 19:40 Honestly, experience is the rupees of this game. I do for a smooth playthrough of Zelda 2, the only real grinding you need to do is at the very start, which you'll naturally do on your first playthrough 'cuz you don't know what you are doing, and may not want to go into that dark cave. When you feel confident enough to go through the darkness, you'll probably have gained a few levels by then. Future playthroughs can be harder by not grinding and going through the darkness asap. The other grinding spot is at the very end of the game, since you'll probably be 6 or 7 with your levels. However, end game does get quite hard, so whether someone wants to get to max level before the final area, or go their asap and get their butt kicked, so they start grinding a bit so they can try again it's good. I also think that's why all the enemies in the final area give no experience. 20:58 Lots of walking? That thought never occurred in my brain, so that is quite interesting. I always viewed the walking as a way to lower the tension a bit to break up from the non-stop action of the fights. Towns are relaxing since you can just take your time reading the dialogue, or just take a moment to calm down as you walk. 23:24 You don't like walking along and hitting enemies on the way? Don't play Rygar if you hate that then. I think that might be why the walking didn't bother me in Zelda 2. I didn't have many games as a kid, so Rygar being one of the few games I had, kinda forced me to love that style of gameplay. Because in Rygar that game is literally nothing but walking and a few boss fights, the enemies are endless always spawning, you want to hit enemies on the way so you can get stronger as you go through the game so you don't have to grind later. The only time you have to relax is at the pause screen, or talking to an old wise man. Which are very jarring and sometimes immersion breaking since they are just a screen, as opposed to the more natural lowering of intensity through walking with no immediate action that Zelda 2 seems to utilize a lot. Heck this is why I love certain portions of Breath of the Wild, as there are some areas on that map that basically have no enemies, but gives you a chance to really take a loot around and appreciate other things in the game since your brain isn't being assaulted 24/7 by various things. Caught me a bit off-guard when you said that you absolutely hated the game at the end. The title lied! Anyways sounds like you may have gotten lost more often than I did. Which I don't blame because if you don't memorize everything every NPC says, it'll get easy to be lost. Also when you feel like you had to complete the game in a certain amount of time is going to doom any game, but a game like Zelda 2 where it was made in a time where you're expected to have little to no other video games so they expect you to do everything thing possible, yeah that's going to definitely sour the mood on Zelda 2. I personally loved every moment of Zelda 2 when I played it on the Wii U (which I nickname it the Zelda machine because I have all Zelda games you could have bought for that system). I was shocked at some of the level design where just about everything had a purpose to it. Reminded me of Dark Souls level design at the time. Honestly, if you ignore the level design of the Zelda 2, the main gameplay of Zelda 2 suffers immensely for it. That was quite an interesting video, thanks for sharing your opinion on it! I've always heard about people disliking Zelda 2, but never had the chance to hear about why from someone that actually played the game.
7:48 any keys found can be used in any palace. An NPC advice you to use keys in the dungeon where they are found. When palace is complete they turn to stone. If you use keys from other palaces, keys you need might get buried. But you can always fairy through locked doors....
Whenever I tried to play this one I always got bored at the first ten minutes and then dropped it immediately lol One thing I want to ask: did you ever any of the Punch-Out games?
to clarify, he said that because (paraphrasing here) most games he made always exceeded the original plan he had in mind. zelda 2 matched the original plan with pretty much no further improvements
In my opinion, the game only reaches insufferable levels of boring after your first trip to Hyrule Castle, but once you hit the adult part of the game it picks back up
Ah, Zelda II, the Final Fantasy II of the series. Take what seemed to work, amplify the game system way more than what was needed, and release a confusing, difficult game so tedious it’s essentially unrewarding to finally finish.
Your experience with this game sounded identical to mine earlier this year. I got to the 3rd palace & haven't touched it since. While Redux fixes many of my major gripes with Zelda 2, it still doesn't make it a good game. I'd like to see a remake that can capture Zelda 2's lost potential, maybe the proposed remake by WayForward. I would be interested to see your thoughts on the recent rom hack Amida's Curse. I've heard interesting things about it.
To answer your question, the reason Zelda 2 is a side scroller was because a lot of high profile sequels in the NES era were experimental. Castlevania 2 was an open ended adventure game, Fire Emblem Gaiden had an overworld with some light exploration and dungeon crawling, Mario 2 in the west took the framework of Doki Doki Panic and Zelda 2 was a side scroller with light RPG elements. Simple as that. I’m surprised more people don’t point this out.
okay, just downloaded and beat zelda 2 redux with that fast forward button yesterday, have some things to add to the convo, 1st thing being rooms: HOULEE TOULEEDOU, even with the fast forward, yes, the mile long stretches of empty room gave me mini flashes of terror, mostly at the thought of what you went through. I highly suspect, with the amount of copied and pasted rooms, there was a problem preventing the ability to optimize things and make neater levels, something at the time had to be preventing inventiveness. I would like to see a mod campaign that can figure out the problems and make good levels. enemies: turns out, there IS a pattern on each enemy! the orange knight, when you approach, will do singular sword swings for a bit, then he'll throw a barrage, up, up, down, up, quick succession! after the barrage, THEN you stab him, and it works! red knight is more lackadaisical, his barrage is slower, and the tell to stab 'im is when he stops swinging, and drifts towards you. blue knight is a faster and meaner version of orange knight. with a gun. the geru lizards meanwhile, are REALLY bad at shielding, and if you keep swinging at them, you can keep them out, and stab their sweet spots! red i find is the most threatening. though, a criticism, is that you only guard and attackat a set height, while the enemies can just do whatever. not very nice, and I wonder if you could make a version that has enemies also use the set height system, or if that would fundamentally screw up combat pace somehow. maybe for weak enemies, after an attack, they pause like link does, then you could stab the knee. magic: honestly, I think the game might be better if all the magics were in your pocket at the start, because it does make a difference, this is a nes game, and nes games are really tricky to learn without a lot of help. one addition that I just thought of, fighting the knights right, the low swings keep catching me off guard, because *I can't see them.* the hand blends in with his cape. knowing the limits they had, this spell could be, either slow motion, OR, a bright red signal arrow that points UP if the attack is upward, or down if down. other thoughts, a zelda 2 pc remake either added or replaced the fairy with a chicken, so that you had to keep pressing jump to fly across gaps, a fun idea. the fire NEEDS to be more deadly in order to incentivize using over the the sword beam, because as is, it's kind of an emergency sword beam that lights torches. reflect should reflect everything, not just the wizards. in fact, it's really strange that the shield doesn't defend against everything, isn't it? reflect is more of a, BETTER shield that a reflect shield, it's the only way to fight the fire belching bird comfortably. towns: new kasuto is mean. I FOUND it, but I was using a map at that point, and new where to press B. my thoughts, give the wizard a hint like, 'new kasuto will be found with the flute", that I think would work best, because by that point, the roadblock monster has been fluted, and he already said the general location of new kasuto. vital information from walking townsfolk, not a fan. there were standing still folk, so I suspect another mysterious program problem, OR it was done to feel lively. the upward thrust swordsman was a bit cryptic. I didn't figure him out, had to look it up. maybe the kid who mentions him could mention a chimney? I dunno. I'm sad that the monster residents didn't have jobs to give you. also the final temple had secret rooms, 1 being madatory, that was kinda mean. does anyone mention them? all in all, zelda 2. I like the idea more than the execution. the fight system is FANTASTIC, and just needs a bit of polish, like enemy tells being clear, and enemies in general being fair. heck, if anyone knows of zelda 2 mod campaigns, tell me the names, I'm interested in what other people can do with the engine! in the meantime, I'm waiting for Sheep Lad.
Zelda 2 feels very different from most of the 2D games, but is a lot closer to most of the 3D games. Ocarina of Time, one of the most popular games in the series, based more of its design on Zelda 2 than on its other predecessors... And somehow Zelda 2 is more widely hated, while Ocarina of Time is widely loved. At some point while developing Breath of the Wild to be based more on Zelda 1's openness, I believe it was Aonouma who said that he hadn't originally finished Zelda 1 and liked Zelda 2 better, so it's not a surprised that he used it as more of a basis for Ocarina of Time. Zelda 1, LttP, & LA all have combat that could often be avoided, Zelda 2 & Ocarina of Time both have more "wait for an opening" style of combat. (Some of LA's boss combat requires "wait for an opening".) Zelda 1 & LttP are both more non-linear, with the ability to do the dungeons in a lot of different orders. Zelda 2, LA, & Ocarina of Time are all very linear in their design. The lives system is simply an early concept form of the bottled fairies, which was used in LttP, Ocarina of Time, and everything after. LA used lotion instead for the same purpose. Enemy design in Ocarina of Time comes mostly from Zelda 2 versions of enemies. Enemies in Zelda 2 that are not in the others, like Iron Knuckle and Lizalfos, tend to appear in Ocarina of Time. Enemies that appear in the other games, but not Zelda 2 tend to not appear in Ocarina of Time, like the Pols Voice and the Darknut. Enemies in both that act differently tend to more closely resemble their Zelda 2 versions, like how the Octorock stays in place, in water, and jumps to shoot at Link, instead of wandering on the land and shooting randomly. They reused all the town town names from Zelda 2 except for Kasuto for NPC names in Ocarina as well, mostly for the sages. The magic meter started in Zelda 2, but was in LttP as well before it was in OoT. The two worlds design feels at first like a LttP thing, but the transfer happens at a single point instead of having multiple portals, so it's more similar to Zelda 2's raft between two continents mechanically, but the two worlds are still very similar worlds more like LttP has, so this one's a mix. They did use some things from other games as well. The skulltullas are a collection item, which started with the mysterious seashells in Link's Awakening. Having dungeons that have puzzles and themes are more like LttP & LA. The way the trading sequence evolved... In Zelda 1 it was a single paper to give to the old woman. In Zelda 2, it was a bunch of small fetch items, each to gain a spell. LttP skipped it. LA started the item leads to another item leads to another item form of trading sequence that OoT used. Modern Zelda wouldn't be what it is today without Zelda 2. Is it as fun as other 2D Zeldas? Absolutely not... But is it the worst Zelda and not worth playing at all? No, that would be Skyward Sword. Enjoyment of Zelda 2 does hinge a lot on enjoying it either with the context of its time, the context of what it is within the series, or as a challenge, and isn't recommended without some level of a guide, unlike the other games in the series, but it can be fun within those contexts, at least on some level. Zelda 2 is bad when compared to the vast majority of the Zelda series, but not when compared to most 8-bit games. I don't mean most 8-bit games that everyone thinks of because they were amazing, like the Mega Man series or Mario 3... I mean most 8-bit games at all. Just look at games like A Boy and His Blob, Xenophobe, or Super Glove Ball. Given what else existed at the time, Zelda 2 was a good game at that time, just not as good of one as what it was a sequel to.
@@AnAverageGoblin Phantom Hourglass has a lot of problems as well... especially the need to cover most of the screen while walking... But I at least liked the way they used the items you gained in multiple ways each, and that's something. I'd put it below AoL, but still WAY above SS. (The controls of PH are why I never bothered to try Spirit Tracks.) I can't judge Triforce Heroes because I haven't played it to compare (nor have I any interest to).
I respect your review but I love the bizareness of this game in retrospect. I think you would've had a better experience had you grinded for XP a bit. I'm not sure if that led to your boredom and pain lol How far did you though? Looking at the footage it seems you were at the last palace. Did you make it to the Thunderbird boss?
Apparently the reason these sort of "black sheep" sequels were so common in the NES era is because consumers had a very different view of sequels back then, particularly in the US. Where nowadays, we generally want video game sequels to offer "more of the same but better," back then, it was hard to convince people to spend $60 of 1980s money on a game that was, on the surface, identical to one they already owned. It's why Nintendo decided not to localize the "real" Mario 2 (as well as that game just being balls hard) -- it used all the same graphical assets and gameplay format, and seemed indistinguishable from the first game.
Except the megaman games which all had the same basic style and they spent the different ideas and gimmicks on the spin off games like X and Battle Network to the point the main series didnt matter as much.
game journalists like to compare games to dark souls, no matter how minor the similarities are, so they can put it in the headlines. zelda 2 i can actually believe as being “the dark souls of nes” the advanced swordplay, the brutal difficulty, losing exp when you die (well, game over, at least), the towns can definitely be compared to bonfires, heck, bringing the hoverbat remake into the fold, that one makes 1ups a permanent upgrade, so that version extends the comparisons with an equivalent to estus flasks. side note: iron knuckles can be cheesed by stabbing while crouch jumping edit: while i’m talking about the hoverbat remake: play that instead of the nes game. even if you love zelda 2, the remake is leagues better. new areas, new items and upgrades, better balance, less frustration in general, second quest, new true final boss(!), the fairy spell becomes an upgradeable cucco spell (and the dungeons are redesigned with that in mind), spryte the fairy (from the cartoon) is one of the new items and she saves you from pits, it’s just the better version of the game
not sure which emulator you have, mesen, the 1 I got, has a fast forward button that, while it wont stop the walking, IS a fast forward, so that will cut down on monotony, and if you speed-walk into a trap, you could use a rewind button to get your bearings on what hit you.
I wonder about the possibility of Castlevania's success led to Adventure of Link. And then the subsequent failure of this and Simons quest leading to link to the past
when Z2 came out, it was during an RPG boom where for some really dumb reason people started making action RPGs instead of RPGs and this was caught in the middle of it.
I made a similar comment on a community post, but have you played any megaman games? I'd be interested in your thoughts considering your experience with action games, having recently played legends 2 Also, trackmania seems like a game you would like, pure momentum physics time attack, nations forever is the one I played Holy shit, I just realized if you put these 2 games together you have a 3d Zelda, it'd be cool to do a super paper Mario thing where you can switch perspectives
Woah someone that actually hates Uncharted 1??? Awesome! While I don't hate it myself, there's certainly difficulty design choices that I can't be on board with.
So you didn't get to Shadow Link? I presume you know about it though, was looking forward to your thoughts on him. Are you doing the story videos on these ones too like you did Sonic?
@@AnAverageGoblin Ooh wow thanks! That's why I need a complete history of Zelda series, I only know bits and pieces from the mythos, but I think he said he's not really doing the story for these which is a shame :(
Perhaps the parts of the game that are impossible to know without a walkthru are intentionally designed that way to get people to spend money on strategy guides and that nintendo game help hotline. Seems plausible to me as both of those were very popular before the internet.
Well this was an awful watch. I’m sorry, but when I saw the title of this video I really thought ‘finally someone who gets it’. Only nope, it’s just yet another video shitting on one of my favorite nes games.
Shame you didn't beat the game. The final FINAL boss becomes a recurring character in later games and is in fact a fan favorite boss fight amongst most zelda fans. If you don't feel like beating it yourself I'd still at least recommend watching the final moments of the game on RUclips for context in later games.
@Pariah695 moreso for context in future videos so you don't have to re-explain what dark link is, and how he's functioned literally exactly the same in every single game he's been in.
The life system is what kills any possible enjoyment for me in this game. The trial and error gameplay and empty overworld become even more glaring issues because of it. WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU SENT BACK TO THE FIRST SCREEN AFTER GAME OVERS IN DUNGEONS? WHAT WERE THEY THINKING???
Probably just not his sort of game. Maybe too many explorey bits, puzzles, who knows? It's a great series though, you should check it out. if you've ever enjoyed Tomb Raider, or anything like that, you'll love it.
I think looking at Zelda 2 in the Zelda series overall, it is kind of similar to the Werehog situation with Sonic Unleashed. Everyone was really hyped for your Sonic Unleashed story review, but the Werehog just HAD to drag the pace down even in your video series. Similarly here, Zelda 1 build up the hype for a Zelda A Link to the Past Review, but well...we just had to have Zelda 2 in the middle of the bunch. Similarly to the Werehog, it's just a boring waste of time overall speaking and it drags down the pace of your video series very much. But don't take this the wrong way, I don't think that's your fault. Zelda 2 is just...not really that interesting to talk about in comparison to Zelda 1 or Zelda 3. Sure, Zelda 2 got it's fans, but in comparison to the first and third game, it's not really that many and I don't think fans of Zelda 2 would be happy with this video. xD But...you cannot NOT talk about it because...it's Zelda 2! Again, kinda similar how you can't have Sonic Unleashed without the freaking Werehog...I get very similar feelings from both of these videos. xD In case of the Zelda series, you can at least just ignore Zelda 2, so, in terms of gameplay, it obviously is different. But I just mean how it feels looking at your videos in particular. Also, I don't think that the main criticism about Zelda 2 is how difficult it is. I think it's more about how punishing it is. Don't know how the Redux version handles this, but the original just basically loved to punch you in the balls at every possible chance.
If you find this game boring... wow, well that's on you! I will advise you to play the vanilla game, not an enhanced makeover. Conclusions is: I couldn't beat it, therefore it's boring. Lame
Even if you dont beat the game you should talk avout thr ending considering that it was the introduction of dark link! Also i have to say it again the new sprites look ugly and overcomplicated!
This game has a dumb and bland ass sub-title so you know it's gonna suck. Every Zelda game is an Adventure of Link WTF!! It should be called Zelda II: The Walkaround.
honestly fuck Zelda 2. there are aspects I like, it plays a major role in a theory I have about BOTW, but I just don't like this game. its as bad as Triforce Heroes was. I had the misfortune of getting into the idea of creating a rom hack and picking Zelda 2 for some reason and I thought the best way to see if my custom text was formatted properly was to beat the game and I hated every god damn minute of it.
I actually am very split on Zelda 2. I don't think it's great, but I like a lot of the ideas it introduced. I would have liked to see them try another game in this style. Not the CDI games, but a proper Nintendo game in the same style
Hint: talk to the NPC's more, your exploration troubles will be helped with that.
Zelda II is one of my favorite NES games (along with the first, or course). The combat and momentum is so slick that it gives the game such a strong replay value to me. I love all the combat encounters and magic management, it's so fun. For an '87 game, it's insanely good and definitely the most well-executed examples of 2D combat out there, as well as the best ARPG. The graphics and puzzles probably are the biggest shortcoming of the game, but I've played it enough that it doesn't really bother me personally. I kinda guessed that you wouldn't like this game, based on your previous videos, but oh well.
What I loved the most about Zelda 2, back when I played the vanilla version and did a speed run of it, was how it had a tone of intensity. Outside of towns and stray fairies, almost everything that is out to attack Link truly feels that they want him dead. But I also do see why the side-scrolling style of gameplay for Zelda was never done again in the series. For me, the Zelda games are at their best when unravelling a puzzle box. And that can be the freedom of exploring a world in whatever order one pleases, like in Breath of The Wild or the intricately crafted layers of floors and puzzles in Ocarina of Time. Zelda 2 I find captures a form of challenge in combat that wasn’t really in other Zelda games post the first Zelda game until Breath of the Wild. But because of having that intensity, the great strengths of the Zelda games, the unravelling of a puzzle box, were lost as a result. While I like Zelda 2, I’m aware of how it does have a feeling of being a vanilla flavour of the week action side-scrolling nes game. My first ever Zelda game was Twilight Princess. I have only recently begun playing all the Zelda games, so I may end up finding Zelda 2 to be bland myself once I’ve gotten to the Zelda games I never played in my life.
Good job on the video, Pariah659. I can see how and why people can find Zelda 2 to be a boring game. I liked how Zelda 2 tried out simplifying the unravelling of a puzzle box. But I can admit how a lot of what makes the Zelda games great was lost as well. I hope you are doing well, it’s always a pleasure to see a new video from you.
This is a crazy review for me because I agree with pretty much everything you said during... the entire video, basically, but I just don't find it boring. Different strokes, I guess-- I'm one of the few people I know that like this game. I don't even think it's that good, but it's a very unique game and there's very few things out there that are actually like it in a way that's not totally superficial. (The down stab simply existing in a game doesn't make it like Zelda 2 structurally... why is that such a common sentiment?)
There are some things I raised my eyebrow at: particularly the thing with "random tile in the woods." The game most definitely does do some bullshit (how could you possibly not talk about New Kasuto explicitly, honestly) but that particular case I think is not very well designed but not terrible. The game tells you through the townspeople that you should look "in woods north of river" and if you're talking to the townspeople actively like you should be, you'll see that. It's why I think the walking complaint doesn't hold as much weight specifically for the towns-- they're there for you to learn as much information as you can and then use that to formulate what you're supposed to do. That's likely why there are forced encounters on squares within that patch of forest. They're there to get in your way trying to search for Bagu.
I also disagree with the assessment of the XP system. I'm honestly surprised you don't like it, because you do seem to enjoy the magic system and its meter management and I think they play into the strengths of each other. If you want to use magic effectively you probably will go ahead and prioritize it over the other stats, and because you lose it all on game over I think it creates a nice risk-reward system, especially since you can use leveling up as a alternative form of healing during a pinch.
Aside from those things though, I can't say I had any particular complaints. It is interesting to see a fully fleshed out opinion on the whole (for the most part) game. Tangentially, my opinion as to why the game is so different from Zelda 1 is because they decided to lean into their influences (from like, D&D, Ultima, etc.) in a different way that emphasized the action more. Maybe it was also so that Zelda 2 could show it has a larger scope and that this Adventure of Link's if you will is on a grander scale. Who knows, it's just a thought.
I will probably go check out the Zelda 1 review too, as I haven't seen it... but this game matters more to me. No normal person types 4 paragraphs about it.
The reason Zelda II is the way it is is because Miyamoto was busy with Super Mario Bros 3 so he only gave vague instructions to the development team of Zelda II. Also, the team originally pitched Zelda II as a spin-off simply named The Adventure of Link (or the Japanese equivalent) because they wanted to make a sidescroller RPG-hybrid but management added "Zelda II" to the title during the last months of development.
Castlevania 2 if it was good.
But seriously, I think the simple answer to why this game is like this is that platformers were popular, JRPGs were popular, Zelda was a hit, let's mix all those things together. Not the best idea but at least it taught them a lesson
There was actually a Metroidvania version of the first Castlevania, the msx version Vampire Killer
The game was a sidescroller because Miyamoto really wanted to develop the swordplay of Zelda into something with more depth. He pictured Link as a master swordsman but didn’t think the first game did a great job of capturing that. The addition of experience points and stuff was just furthering the initiative started with Zelda, Metroid and Kid Icarus to fuse tabletop RPG conventions with console action games. Miyamoto was famously quite disappointed with the final product. The enemy sprites are nowhere near as big and cool as he wanted them to be, and while the swordplay is more complex, it still wasn’t the epic jousting matches he pictured in his head. The idea would finally be done justice in Ocarina of Time, which can be thought of as a 3D take on Zelda 2’s one-on-one combat.
Nowadays, Miyamoto thinks of Zelda 2 as his weakest game ever. I’ve always remembered how Takashi Tezuka responded when he encountered one of its defenders: “Zelda 2 fans? People like that actually exist?!” lmao 😂
I recently (a few years ago at this point, actually, where has the time gone?) made a list of what I've gathered to be the "must-play" games of gaming history and have been slowly chipping away at it, and I ended up having pretty much the same opinion on this game once I got to it. Zelda 1 had issues, but I largely had a good time with it and can see myself going back to it; I didn't get very far in Zelda 2, and I couldn't put into words why. You did so and it feels obvious to me now that I simply just got bored. I thought it had to just be me, because I get bored of plenty of good games that I'm just not in the mood for at any given time, but I can see looking back that I'm just NEVER in the mood to play this game. I sometimes want to go back for the swordplay, but that would mean interacting with the rest of the game and I'd rather avoid that than potentially having fun with the game, and I think that says it all about the game. It's too bad, because there's definitely cool stuff there; we got the legendary Temple theme that 90% of people know from Smash, and Dark Link who was every edgy teenager's favorite Zelda character in the early 2000s. I think most people agree that it would at least be interesting if nothing else to see Nintendo return to this formula and improve upon it.
What are some other ones? I haven't made a list, but I'm going through a lot of old games, right now it's unreal, as well as skyrim and world of assassination
@@tivvy2vs21 It's quite a long list, it goes back to essentially the beginning of gaming as I'm looking at it from a historical point of view. If you've got twitter or someplace for me to DM you it'd be easier for me to send it there
@@TheGershon i have discord, don't login to Twitter much
@@tivvy2vs21 that works, drop it & feel free to delete it after I add you
@@TheGershon ok, SwordLAAAA#1006
"Zelda was always good."
Two episodes in except this one.
The comment that I was typing on the previous was mostly about the differences I saw in your Zelda 1 Redux footage. I played this game almost how you're playing it right now, which was a wonderful experience. Zelda 1 I played it with Zelda HD Remaster on Mesen, which didn't change the gameplay but was pretty great.
The house of Bagu/Bug is totally hinted at, especially in Redux. The towns-people basically spell out every secret and I never had an issue with navigating or knowing what to do next. I'm surprised that you missed that. In the original translation I can understand the cryptic complaints by people playing it but I really thought Redux would make that impossible haha.
25:00 There's something about that delivery of this line that it makes me laugh so much, unexpectedly made my night, I love your way of expressing in your vids, also a reason why I subscribed.
I’m loving this new series keep up the good work ❤
9:36 Fun fact! The jump attacks will still work on those guys, even with the ceiling over your head.
So, I've got super thick nostalgia goggles on for this game. Even now I still like it, BUT I can also see where you're coming from. Especially if you go into it blind. Back in the day most of us sat around talking about what we figured out in games, and that's how you were supposed to learn about necessary NPC's like Bug and Error. It is hard to go back to, with it's endless walking around and cryptic 80's bullshit, but I still love it. ALTTP is still the GOAT though. That came out and just blew the first two games out of the water. It was also the first game I knew of that had a difficulty toggle, where you could turn the blinking map points off if you wanted a more Zelda 1 like experience. So, while I'm sorry you didn't like 2, I'm really looking forward to you playing ALTTP.
Well, you certainly got me with the last few minutes. Before the theme was that this game isn't so bad, but also not as good as Zelda 1. And then you're just ripping it apart. Damn.
It's just a more realistic Zelda game, with complex fighting system, experience, defense stat, and WALKING
Might be worth noting this was not intended as a "Legend of Zelda" game. Sure, they used Zelda's name for marketing purposes (in the same way "Yoshi's Island" was branded "Super Mario World 2,") but when you look at the box art for the first two games back to back, "The ADVENTURE of LINK" is branded very similarly to "The LEGEND of ZELDA." It's possible that if Zelda 2 performed better, this could've been a point where the franchise splits in half. Every game in the *Legend of Zelda* series would be an isometric adventure, but every game in the *Adventure of Link* series would be a sidescroller. Just something fun to think about.
I would be down for a more polished Zelda II sequel
I remember playing Zelda 2 for like a month straight, and not because I loved it. For those who don't know, Zelda games keep track of the number of times you've died with a number on your save file. Being a bit of a perfectionist, I'm always determined to keep that number at "000." Well, Zelda 2 is one of the most infuriating games to get a no-death run on, because it *also counts saving the game as "dying."* So you essentially have to play the whole game in one sitting, in a game that starts you off with two lives, has only ten or so extra lives to pick up, and is riddled with bottomless pits and cheap enemy placement. Zelda 2 isn't a long game to complete, but doing it in one sitting without getting a Game Over is a goddamn nightmare.
I stopped playing the Resident Evil 1 remake for similar reasons you expressed for Zelda 2.
It was quite tense for the time I was exploring the ground floor, first floor, and basement of the mansion but when all of the monsters had been slain, I found myself getting stuck and trying to find the next point of progression for HOURS with no luck; It got so bad that me, trying to to play in the dark for an enhanced atmosphere, instead became drowsy and on the verge of falling asleep, which I rarely feel because of insomnia. Never been back to it since.
If you were playing the 1996 release I could understand getting stuck, but in the Remake your map shows locked doors and tells whether you collected all items in a certain area or not, getting stuck for more than an hour with no objective is quite unlikely. (Unless you don't read the files spread giving you information)
@@sanglish18 Yeah, sounds like he's really dumb.
I would love to see a series like this for the from software games. Like demon souls, dark souls 1-3, bloodbourn. I think the gameplay in those games, and their level design is super interesting. Beyond it being hard.
What about Armored Core or Echo Night? they've done a lot more than SpulsBorne games
Everything before demons souls would honestly be much more interesting. Recent From has been covered for death and outside of a small dedicated armored core following, nobody cares about their other works, which are all compelling
@@erc3338 but the souls games are so much fuuuuuuun :(
I'd love to see a modern take on a Zelda game like this with better game design.
Look up Phoenotopia: Awakening.
@@Pariah6950 You've sold me on it.
@@andrewdowell6474 Blossom Tales: The Sleeping King is another good one.
the first adventure time game by wayforward (hey ice king, why’d you steal our garbage?!) is another good one. be warned, it takes place earlier in the series, having the earlier seasons’s tone, along with moments that aged poorly
The NPC's in the towns tell you all types of stuff. The ones that are sleeping you have to nag them to talk. Also, you have to remember this game is a product of its time, this is when people were reading Game Manuals from the box, Nintendo power magazine, and talking about secrets in these games on the school bus. It was a different time.
I owned this game as a kid and I never found that guy hidden in the forest. I knew I was looking for him from some other clue but I just never found him. I enjoyed the game up until that point and I was always disappointed that I couldn't get further.
FYI I also had Simon's quest as a kid which I also really enjoyed but couldn't finish for the same reason. Cryptic game design.
Saying Zelda 2 is nice in the title, an interesting controversial opinion, I have to watch.
Around 3 minutes in talking about level up systems. Most games I'm not a big fan of level up systems. However, Zelda 2 makes it work because while there is some exploring, the game is very structured (and honestly seems like it planted the seeds for the structured gameplay of future Zeldas. Skyward Sword being the strongest example). You're still going to want to explore every place to get more items, but if you get lost (which can be easy in certain parts) you'll still get rewarded for just killing things, especially since it's harder to avoid enemies in this game which is interesting since most Zeldas it's usually a viable option to just ignore all fights as long as they don't lock a door.
5:13 Some years ago I heard somewhere that Zelda 2 was originally going to be a different game entirely, but at some point they decided to put Link in there instead at some point as development changed a bunch. Honestly, I wonder what would have happened if they stuck with that. Perhaps this game wouldn't have been criticized so much, and Nintendo might have had another game series in their arsenal.
8:20 Similar to Skyward Sword. I feel the swordplay is one of the things that is done very well. Unfortunately like Skyward Sword, the rest of your items are practically useless for 90% of most combat fights. This is a good thing, but I do hope at some point that allow you to combine this, with Wind Waker's ability to just use many different types of items for many different effects on different enemies, just rewarding you for doing things better, but still allowing people to just mash the sword attack if they don't want to think 'cuz they want the story/ to explore.
9:40ish I feel like that's a thing specifically for the knights be cause it makes things feel more intense. However they probably should've made you fight them less often, or give some sort of telegraph. Also for anyone struggling with that part shown in the video, break the blocks so you can jump in that tiny little hole so you can do the jump attacks. It'll still be hard, and if you mess up, it'll make it really hard.
9:57 I think the way they attack is fine, because you're able to react to the position of their arms before they swing every time.
10:13 Lack of exploration is a thing. It feels more like this game wants you to do traditional exploring in the open world, then focus more on combat in side scrolling parts. Also side scrolling parts makes you have to have an emphasis on the map layout a lot more than Zelda 1 for sure.
12:10 I feel they were trying to make the world feel bigger by making there be an overworld thing. I personally don't quite care for when games do this. If the change is not seemless, it just further emphasizes the changes in gameplay for better or worse. Luckily, the overworld part isn't something you mess around with much. In Zelda 2, it feels like it's more of taking a breather from the other type of gameplay, after all while Zelda 2 isn't as hard as people say it is, it's still a bit tougher than the average Zelda. People need a chance to relax after trying their butt off all the time.
13:50 Again, small overworld, very linear. It doesn't take that much time to see each area.
14:50 I thought this part was pretty neat. I think it took me 5-10 minutes of exploring the forest since someone tells you that you need to meet someone is hiding in the forest by a river. So I went there, figured I had to comb the forest. Also, when you get near that tile, you get the little hoppy guys which you normally don't fight in that area so you get an idea you are getting close. Again, the overworld is not that large. I've seen some games do this same thing, but make it so you have to search for literal hours to find something. Still I think they should've done this for an optional upgrade, not part of the main quest.
15:30 Most collectibles have some really vague hint that is kinda like "oh, really that's what you meant by that?" when you do find the collectible. Again, I didn't find a big issue with it as the overworld is pretty small.
17:14 Again, Zelda 2 did the Skyward Sword thing, where 90% of what you do is an emphasis on the sword, and other items are more of an afterthought/tradition.
18:08 The grinding for magic is a thing I hated, but at the same time everytime I ran out of magic, I felt like it was deserved because I wasn't using it properly. The grinding is a punishment for being careless, this makes you care about the way you use magic more in the future. It actually shocks me how well they balance out how much magic you need for where you are at. Most games either punish you too hard, or give you too much, Zelda 2 is one of the very few games where it seems like a very good balance.
19:40 Honestly, experience is the rupees of this game. I do for a smooth playthrough of Zelda 2, the only real grinding you need to do is at the very start, which you'll naturally do on your first playthrough 'cuz you don't know what you are doing, and may not want to go into that dark cave. When you feel confident enough to go through the darkness, you'll probably have gained a few levels by then. Future playthroughs can be harder by not grinding and going through the darkness asap.
The other grinding spot is at the very end of the game, since you'll probably be 6 or 7 with your levels. However, end game does get quite hard, so whether someone wants to get to max level before the final area, or go their asap and get their butt kicked, so they start grinding a bit so they can try again it's good. I also think that's why all the enemies in the final area give no experience.
20:58 Lots of walking? That thought never occurred in my brain, so that is quite interesting. I always viewed the walking as a way to lower the tension a bit to break up from the non-stop action of the fights. Towns are relaxing since you can just take your time reading the dialogue, or just take a moment to calm down as you walk.
23:24 You don't like walking along and hitting enemies on the way? Don't play Rygar if you hate that then. I think that might be why the walking didn't bother me in Zelda 2. I didn't have many games as a kid, so Rygar being one of the few games I had, kinda forced me to love that style of gameplay. Because in Rygar that game is literally nothing but walking and a few boss fights, the enemies are endless always spawning, you want to hit enemies on the way so you can get stronger as you go through the game so you don't have to grind later. The only time you have to relax is at the pause screen, or talking to an old wise man. Which are very jarring and sometimes immersion breaking since they are just a screen, as opposed to the more natural lowering of intensity through walking with no immediate action that Zelda 2 seems to utilize a lot. Heck this is why I love certain portions of Breath of the Wild, as there are some areas on that map that basically have no enemies, but gives you a chance to really take a loot around and appreciate other things in the game since your brain isn't being assaulted 24/7 by various things.
Caught me a bit off-guard when you said that you absolutely hated the game at the end. The title lied! Anyways sounds like you may have gotten lost more often than I did. Which I don't blame because if you don't memorize everything every NPC says, it'll get easy to be lost. Also when you feel like you had to complete the game in a certain amount of time is going to doom any game, but a game like Zelda 2 where it was made in a time where you're expected to have little to no other video games so they expect you to do everything thing possible, yeah that's going to definitely sour the mood on Zelda 2.
I personally loved every moment of Zelda 2 when I played it on the Wii U (which I nickname it the Zelda machine because I have all Zelda games you could have bought for that system). I was shocked at some of the level design where just about everything had a purpose to it. Reminded me of Dark Souls level design at the time. Honestly, if you ignore the level design of the Zelda 2, the main gameplay of Zelda 2 suffers immensely for it.
That was quite an interesting video, thanks for sharing your opinion on it! I've always heard about people disliking Zelda 2, but never had the chance to hear about why from someone that actually played the game.
7:48 any keys found can be used in any palace. An NPC advice you to use keys in the dungeon where they are found. When palace is complete they turn to stone. If you use keys from other palaces, keys you need might get buried. But you can always fairy through locked doors....
Whenever I tried to play this one I always got bored at the first ten minutes and then dropped it immediately lol
One thing I want to ask: did you ever any of the Punch-Out games?
I have. I like them.
So excited for this one. I hate Zelda 2 as a game, but I love its *engine.* I want more Zelda 2 clones, PLEASE. *PLEASE.*
16:07 that's every zelda game in a nutshell
The leveling system is very well done in this game. Not complex at all!
Miyamoto once stated that this was the one game he regretted making
to clarify, he said that because (paraphrasing here) most games he made always exceeded the original plan he had in mind. zelda 2 matched the original plan with pretty much no further improvements
Holy shit what an ending lmao
That is exactly how I felt while playing Ocarina of Time so I'm eager to watch that review when it happens
In my opinion, the game only reaches insufferable levels of boring after your first trip to Hyrule Castle, but once you hit the adult part of the game it picks back up
Ah, Zelda II, the Final Fantasy II of the series. Take what seemed to work, amplify the game system way more than what was needed, and release a confusing, difficult game so tedious it’s essentially unrewarding to finally finish.
Your experience with this game sounded identical to mine earlier this year. I got to the 3rd palace & haven't touched it since. While Redux fixes many of my major gripes with Zelda 2, it still doesn't make it a good game. I'd like to see a remake that can capture Zelda 2's lost potential, maybe the proposed remake by WayForward. I would be interested to see your thoughts on the recent rom hack Amida's Curse. I've heard interesting things about it.
To answer your question, the reason Zelda 2 is a side scroller was because a lot of high profile sequels in the NES era were experimental. Castlevania 2 was an open ended adventure game, Fire Emblem Gaiden had an overworld with some light exploration and dungeon crawling, Mario 2 in the west took the framework of Doki Doki Panic and Zelda 2 was a side scroller with light RPG elements. Simple as that. I’m surprised more people don’t point this out.
26:40 my man just said I'm outta here
okay, just downloaded and beat zelda 2 redux with that fast forward button yesterday, have some things to add to the convo, 1st thing being
rooms: HOULEE TOULEEDOU, even with the fast forward, yes, the mile long stretches of empty room gave me mini flashes of terror, mostly at the thought of what you went through. I highly suspect, with the amount of copied and pasted rooms, there was a problem preventing the ability to optimize things and make neater levels, something at the time had to be preventing inventiveness. I would like to see a mod campaign that can figure out the problems and make good levels.
enemies: turns out, there IS a pattern on each enemy! the orange knight, when you approach, will do singular sword swings for a bit, then he'll throw a barrage, up, up, down, up, quick succession! after the barrage, THEN you stab him, and it works!
red knight is more lackadaisical, his barrage is slower, and the tell to stab 'im is when he stops swinging, and drifts towards you.
blue knight is a faster and meaner version of orange knight. with a gun.
the geru lizards meanwhile, are REALLY bad at shielding, and if you keep swinging at them, you can keep them out, and stab their sweet spots! red i find is the most threatening.
though, a criticism, is that you only guard and attackat a set height, while the enemies can just do whatever. not very nice, and I wonder if you could make a version that has enemies also use the set height system, or if that would fundamentally screw up combat pace somehow. maybe for weak enemies, after an attack, they pause like link does, then you could stab the knee.
magic: honestly, I think the game might be better if all the magics were in your pocket at the start, because it does make a difference, this is a nes game, and nes games are really tricky to learn without a lot of help. one addition that I just thought of, fighting the knights right, the low swings keep catching me off guard, because *I can't see them.* the hand blends in with his cape. knowing the limits they had, this spell could be, either slow motion, OR, a bright red signal arrow that points UP if the attack is upward, or down if down.
other thoughts, a zelda 2 pc remake either added or replaced the fairy with a chicken, so that you had to keep pressing jump to fly across gaps, a fun idea.
the fire NEEDS to be more deadly in order to incentivize using over the the sword beam, because as is, it's kind of an emergency sword beam that lights torches.
reflect should reflect everything, not just the wizards. in fact, it's really strange that the shield doesn't defend against everything, isn't it? reflect is more of a, BETTER shield that a reflect shield, it's the only way to fight the fire belching bird comfortably.
towns: new kasuto is mean. I FOUND it, but I was using a map at that point, and new where to press B. my thoughts, give the wizard a hint like, 'new kasuto will be found with the flute", that I think would work best, because by that point, the roadblock monster has been fluted, and he already said the general location of new kasuto.
vital information from walking townsfolk, not a fan. there were standing still folk, so I suspect another mysterious program problem, OR it was done to feel lively.
the upward thrust swordsman was a bit cryptic. I didn't figure him out, had to look it up. maybe the kid who mentions him could mention a chimney? I dunno.
I'm sad that the monster residents didn't have jobs to give you.
also the final temple had secret rooms, 1 being madatory, that was kinda mean. does anyone mention them?
all in all, zelda 2. I like the idea more than the execution. the fight system is FANTASTIC, and just needs a bit of polish, like enemy tells being clear, and enemies in general being fair. heck, if anyone knows of zelda 2 mod campaigns, tell me the names, I'm interested in what other people can do with the engine! in the meantime, I'm waiting for Sheep Lad.
Zelda 2 feels very different from most of the 2D games, but is a lot closer to most of the 3D games. Ocarina of Time, one of the most popular games in the series, based more of its design on Zelda 2 than on its other predecessors... And somehow Zelda 2 is more widely hated, while Ocarina of Time is widely loved. At some point while developing Breath of the Wild to be based more on Zelda 1's openness, I believe it was Aonouma who said that he hadn't originally finished Zelda 1 and liked Zelda 2 better, so it's not a surprised that he used it as more of a basis for Ocarina of Time.
Zelda 1, LttP, & LA all have combat that could often be avoided, Zelda 2 & Ocarina of Time both have more "wait for an opening" style of combat. (Some of LA's boss combat requires "wait for an opening".)
Zelda 1 & LttP are both more non-linear, with the ability to do the dungeons in a lot of different orders. Zelda 2, LA, & Ocarina of Time are all very linear in their design.
The lives system is simply an early concept form of the bottled fairies, which was used in LttP, Ocarina of Time, and everything after. LA used lotion instead for the same purpose.
Enemy design in Ocarina of Time comes mostly from Zelda 2 versions of enemies. Enemies in Zelda 2 that are not in the others, like Iron Knuckle and Lizalfos, tend to appear in Ocarina of Time. Enemies that appear in the other games, but not Zelda 2 tend to not appear in Ocarina of Time, like the Pols Voice and the Darknut. Enemies in both that act differently tend to more closely resemble their Zelda 2 versions, like how the Octorock stays in place, in water, and jumps to shoot at Link, instead of wandering on the land and shooting randomly.
They reused all the town town names from Zelda 2 except for Kasuto for NPC names in Ocarina as well, mostly for the sages.
The magic meter started in Zelda 2, but was in LttP as well before it was in OoT.
The two worlds design feels at first like a LttP thing, but the transfer happens at a single point instead of having multiple portals, so it's more similar to Zelda 2's raft between two continents mechanically, but the two worlds are still very similar worlds more like LttP has, so this one's a mix.
They did use some things from other games as well. The skulltullas are a collection item, which started with the mysterious seashells in Link's Awakening. Having dungeons that have puzzles and themes are more like LttP & LA. The way the trading sequence evolved... In Zelda 1 it was a single paper to give to the old woman. In Zelda 2, it was a bunch of small fetch items, each to gain a spell. LttP skipped it. LA started the item leads to another item leads to another item form of trading sequence that OoT used.
Modern Zelda wouldn't be what it is today without Zelda 2. Is it as fun as other 2D Zeldas? Absolutely not... But is it the worst Zelda and not worth playing at all? No, that would be Skyward Sword. Enjoyment of Zelda 2 does hinge a lot on enjoying it either with the context of its time, the context of what it is within the series, or as a challenge, and isn't recommended without some level of a guide, unlike the other games in the series, but it can be fun within those contexts, at least on some level.
Zelda 2 is bad when compared to the vast majority of the Zelda series, but not when compared to most 8-bit games. I don't mean most 8-bit games that everyone thinks of because they were amazing, like the Mega Man series or Mario 3... I mean most 8-bit games at all. Just look at games like A Boy and His Blob, Xenophobe, or Super Glove Ball. Given what else existed at the time, Zelda 2 was a good game at that time, just not as good of one as what it was a sequel to.
Skyward Sword isn't the worst zelda lmao. Phantom Hourglass and Triforce Heroes are right there dude.
@@AnAverageGoblin Phantom Hourglass has a lot of problems as well... especially the need to cover most of the screen while walking... But I at least liked the way they used the items you gained in multiple ways each, and that's something. I'd put it below AoL, but still WAY above SS. (The controls of PH are why I never bothered to try Spirit Tracks.)
I can't judge Triforce Heroes because I haven't played it to compare (nor have I any interest to).
I respect your review but I love the bizareness of this game in retrospect. I think you would've had a better experience had you grinded for XP a bit. I'm not sure if that led to your boredom and pain lol How far did you though? Looking at the footage it seems you were at the last palace. Did you make it to the Thunderbird boss?
Apparently the reason these sort of "black sheep" sequels were so common in the NES era is because consumers had a very different view of sequels back then, particularly in the US. Where nowadays, we generally want video game sequels to offer "more of the same but better," back then, it was hard to convince people to spend $60 of 1980s money on a game that was, on the surface, identical to one they already owned. It's why Nintendo decided not to localize the "real" Mario 2 (as well as that game just being balls hard) -- it used all the same graphical assets and gameplay format, and seemed indistinguishable from the first game.
Except the megaman games which all had the same basic style and they spent the different ideas and gimmicks on the spin off games like X and Battle Network to the point the main series didnt matter as much.
game journalists like to compare games to dark souls, no matter how minor the similarities are, so they can put it in the headlines. zelda 2 i can actually believe as being “the dark souls of nes” the advanced swordplay, the brutal difficulty, losing exp when you die (well, game over, at least), the towns can definitely be compared to bonfires, heck, bringing the hoverbat remake into the fold, that one makes 1ups a permanent upgrade, so that version extends the comparisons with an equivalent to estus flasks.
side note: iron knuckles can be cheesed by stabbing while crouch jumping
edit: while i’m talking about the hoverbat remake: play that instead of the nes game. even if you love zelda 2, the remake is leagues better. new areas, new items and upgrades, better balance, less frustration in general, second quest, new true final boss(!), the fairy spell becomes an upgradeable cucco spell (and the dungeons are redesigned with that in mind), spryte the fairy (from the cartoon) is one of the new items and she saves you from pits, it’s just the better version of the game
The game looks interesting, but I absolutely despise the flashing of the death animation. Talk about headache!
not sure which emulator you have, mesen, the 1 I got, has a fast forward button that, while it wont stop the walking, IS a fast forward, so that will cut down on monotony, and if you speed-walk into a trap, you could use a rewind button to get your bearings on what hit you.
I wonder about the possibility of Castlevania's success led to Adventure of Link. And then the subsequent failure of this and Simons quest leading to link to the past
when Z2 came out, it was during an RPG boom where for some really dumb reason people started making action RPGs instead of RPGs and this was caught in the middle of it.
I have problems with Zelda 2, though I've always wanted to play similar games like Battle of Olympus, Faxanadu and Ys 3 to see how those compare.
i dropped it at the last dungeon like decades ago, only mainliune Zelda i havent finished or have never wannted to come back to
You should give this spin-off series a different name, there isn't a common stereotype that Zelda is a bad series, unlike Sonic.
I made a similar comment on a community post, but have you played any megaman games? I'd be interested in your thoughts considering your experience with action games, having recently played legends 2
Also, trackmania seems like a game you would like, pure momentum physics time attack, nations forever is the one I played
Holy shit, I just realized if you put these 2 games together you have a 3d Zelda, it'd be cool to do a super paper Mario thing where you can switch perspectives
Woah someone that actually hates Uncharted 1??? Awesome! While I don't hate it myself, there's certainly difficulty design choices that I can't be on board with.
We need original Dragon Quest trilogy review (Gameboy or SNES versions)
27 games. 27 top notch videos. This will totally help holding me over until totk.
So you didn't get to Shadow Link? I presume you know about it though, was looking forward to your thoughts on him. Are you doing the story videos on these ones too like you did Sonic?
Dark Link*
Shadow Link is a similar but entirely separate thing.
@@AnAverageGoblin Ooh wow thanks! That's why I need a complete history of Zelda series, I only know bits and pieces from the mythos, but I think he said he's not really doing the story for these which is a shame :(
i beat shadow link in the pc remastered version by hoverbat (highly recommend, btw, it makes the game go from terrible to masterpiece)… as a cucco.
Perhaps the parts of the game that are impossible to know without a walkthru are intentionally designed that way to get people to spend money on strategy guides and that nintendo game help hotline. Seems plausible to me as both of those were very popular before the internet.
14:50 Did you talk to the sleeping bot in the town? 4x times 👍
This is the 1st time I have ever seen someone make a point of all this games "dead air"
things with “2” in them will never be good, should give final fantasy 2 a try 💀
Well this was an awful watch. I’m sorry, but when I saw the title of this video I really thought ‘finally someone who gets it’. Only nope, it’s just yet another video shitting on one of my favorite nes games.
look up 'The Brutal Brilliance of Zelda II'
How you felt at the end is how I feel with 3d Zelda games.
Zelda 2 broke me as a kid
9:39 jump and stab, and you hit him evry time with the correct timing
Shame you didn't beat the game. The final FINAL boss becomes a recurring character in later games and is in fact a fan favorite boss fight amongst most zelda fans. If you don't feel like beating it yourself I'd still at least recommend watching the final moments of the game on RUclips for context in later games.
Come on. I've been around. I am well aware about Dark Link in this game.
@Pariah695 moreso for context in future videos so you don't have to re-explain what dark link is, and how he's functioned literally exactly the same in every single game he's been in.
The temple theme remix from Smash is the best thing to come out of this game.
The life system is what kills any possible enjoyment for me in this game. The trial and error gameplay and empty overworld become even more glaring issues because of it. WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU SENT BACK TO THE FIRST SCREEN AFTER GAME OVERS IN DUNGEONS? WHAT WERE THEY THINKING???
Why do you think Uncharted 1 sucked? I was planning on getting into that franchise haha
Probably just not his sort of game. Maybe too many explorey bits, puzzles, who knows? It's a great series though, you should check it out. if you've ever enjoyed Tomb Raider, or anything like that, you'll love it.
21:38 DayZ in a nutshell
Well there you go folks a game that’s worse than every Sonic game. 😜
I think looking at Zelda 2 in the Zelda series overall, it is kind of similar to the Werehog situation with Sonic Unleashed.
Everyone was really hyped for your Sonic Unleashed story review, but the Werehog just HAD to drag the pace down even in your video series.
Similarly here, Zelda 1 build up the hype for a Zelda A Link to the Past Review, but well...we just had to have Zelda 2 in the middle of the bunch.
Similarly to the Werehog, it's just a boring waste of time overall speaking and it drags down the pace of your video series very much.
But don't take this the wrong way, I don't think that's your fault.
Zelda 2 is just...not really that interesting to talk about in comparison to Zelda 1 or Zelda 3.
Sure, Zelda 2 got it's fans, but in comparison to the first and third game, it's not really that many and I don't think fans of Zelda 2 would be happy with this video. xD
But...you cannot NOT talk about it because...it's Zelda 2!
Again, kinda similar how you can't have Sonic Unleashed without the freaking Werehog...I get very similar feelings from both of these videos. xD
In case of the Zelda series, you can at least just ignore Zelda 2, so, in terms of gameplay, it obviously is different.
But I just mean how it feels looking at your videos in particular.
Also, I don't think that the main criticism about Zelda 2 is how difficult it is. I think it's more about how punishing it is.
Don't know how the Redux version handles this, but the original just basically loved to punch you in the balls at every possible chance.
Hyaaa !!! Heugh ! heaahhh !
If you find this game boring... wow, well that's on you! I will advise you to play the vanilla game, not an enhanced makeover.
Conclusions is: I couldn't beat it, therefore it's boring. Lame
Even if you dont beat the game you should talk avout thr ending considering that it was the introduction of dark link!
Also i have to say it again the new sprites look ugly and overcomplicated!
I hope you won't skip CDI games.
Oh... So you did end up playing a game and hating it utterly... Still not called yada yada was always bad. Haha
Even Miyamoto hates it. lol
Still better than Triforce Heroes
This game has a dumb and bland ass sub-title so you know it's gonna suck. Every Zelda game is an Adventure of Link WTF!! It should be called Zelda II: The Walkaround.
AVGN rip off.
First! Looking forward to this one!
26:24 Not really, because Zelda 2 is not really a True Zelda game. So Zelda was-is-of course always good
Zelda 2 isnt canon
honestly fuck Zelda 2. there are aspects I like, it plays a major role in a theory I have about BOTW, but I just don't like this game. its as bad as Triforce Heroes was. I had the misfortune of getting into the idea of creating a rom hack and picking Zelda 2 for some reason and I thought the best way to see if my custom text was formatted properly was to beat the game and I hated every god damn minute of it.