Road Bike Vs TT Bike: Aero Bars Wind Tunnel Tested | GTN Does Science!
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- Road bike with clip-on bars? A comfortable TT bike position? When watching a triathlon we witness all sorts of bike setups & positions! There is no right, or wrong. That’s the great thing about triathlon. But if you’re wondering how much faster, or slower these different setups & positions could be, with the help of our friends at Profile Design we’re about to find out!
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Thanks for acknowledging that most of us are not pro cyclists who can reach those speeds that aerodynamics are usually tested in, this makes it a lot more helpful and entertaining
Groundspeed and airspeed are not the same thing. Sure, most cyclists aren't cruising at 45 kph but most cyclists also aren't cycling in a vacuum with no head or crosswinds. A cyclist going 24 kph into a 21 kph headwind wind has net 45 kph of airspeed going over their equipment. And that assumes a steady wind, not a more realistic gusting, swirling pattern that real-world wind tends to have.
When you account for real-world wind conditions, higher speed tests are just as, if not more, valid.
@@sean7456 you could argue the same thing the other way, a cyclist is equally likely to have a tailwind, so I wouldn't say that higher speed testing is more valid. Most people aren't cycling in 20km/h+ winds though
Depending on the equipment variables the overall time losses are even bigger with lower speeds because the slower rider is out on the road much longer
@@bruuhhhh that's not difficult to account for. But in reality, you're never getting a functionally true tailwind unless you're going slower than the wind speed which will only happen in a hurricane while you're on a terribly inefficient bike like a cargo bike
@@veganpotterthevegan yes of course but I still think it means that it makes sense to do measurements for 30kmh because it is a speed you're probably more likely to be travelling at relative to wind than 45kmh imo
would've been good to have seen a comparison made with an aggressive road bike position (in the drops or on the hoods with flat forearms) to see how much, if at all, its slower than using clip-on bars, rather than just the 'cafe racer' position
Thanks for that. Will definitely look to do this in future
Problem with that aggressive road position is you can't hold it for 90-180km
@Jaime ive ridden solo centuries in the drops the whole time. With training riding in the drops is manageable.
However, Aero Hoods I doubt many people could hold that for a lengtly period.
@@nucklehead99 and yet people have done RAAM in the Aero bars. Less strength required to hold the Aero position. After having done both for 90+km I know what I prefer, and it's not an aggressive road position
@@nucklehead99 I think I may have confused your response, flat forearms on the hoods for any decent period would be super fatiguing. Holding the drops, less so.
Whoever did this model of Mark at 01:09 - Impressive job!
Excellent video, thanks for sharing.
This was a great video. Another that has helped me make a decision that I was two minded about. Thanks GTN.
I really like this kind of analysis.
Would really have liked to see a more aero road bike position such as the “aero hoods” position included in this comparison. While I appreciate it’s not a position most can sustain long term, with training it can be held quite a long time, and it can easily be adopted for shorter times on the faster parts of a course.
There would be maybe not 40 but 25w difference in savings . Aero bars are for sure much faster. I didn't think that at first but then I tried it myself on my test circuit and it was a big difference for me and strangely enough I was even quite a bit comfortable on aero bars then in drop position or even relax position.
I had already decided to use my 3T Strada road bike for IM Nice in September and to swap out the 3T “non-compatible with clip-on” handlebars that came with the bike for 3T’s clip-on compatible drop bars, but this video confirmed why that was a good decision over using my Blue Triad TT bike. Thanks GTN.
Good to see testing done at an amateur realistic 30kph. Also like to see testing relating to other things amateurs will spend money on. e.g. helmets, xlab torpedo vs round bottle, aero downtube bottle vs round bottle.
Groundspeed and airspeed are not the same thing. Sure, most cyclists aren't cruising at 45 kph but most cyclists also aren't cycling in a vacuum with no head or crosswinds. A cyclist going 24 kph into a 21 kph headwind wind has net 45 kph of airspeed going over their equipment. And that assumes a steady wind, not a more realistic gusting, swirling pattern that real-world wind tends to have.
When you account for real-world wind conditions, higher speed tests are just as, if not more, valid.
@@sean7456 I think that's just confirming it really. Not many amateurs will be going 24kph into a 21kph headwind...I certainly wouldn't. But 30kph in a calm day is more like it.
yep!!❤❤❤❤
Would love to see front hydration systems and an aerobar bottle holder go head to head in the tunnel
That's good to hear, I wanted to check so use aero Emonda ALR in time trial
Interesting video and timely for me as I am just TT-ing my road bike. Clip on bars, TT saddle, bottle behind the seat, TT helmet. Training for my first 70.3 this summer, I am hoping that at the minimum I can go the same speed for less power (hence less energy expenditure), or I might even be a bit faster. Testing continues, but this vid has given me some hope!
do it once , to say you did, then do 1/2 tri's or 1/4 tri's.....full tri's are really bad for your health, running also causes arthritis
this is huge !
I have another variation of adding clips ons that has also proven this point. I have a carbon fat bike that I went to 29plus on, added drop bars, and Profile Designs clip on aero bars. I didn’t do it for speed performance, but for long ride comfort and efficiency. Also here in Colorado it gets windy, and it has made riding in the wind much much more pleasant.
PS- when testing the integrated hydration, would love to see it compared to a traditional bottle cage between the aero bars, which a lot of pros use for various reasons.
Great piece, especially because you tested at a much more realistic speed for amateurs. 👍
Groundspeed and airspeed are not the same thing. Sure, most cyclists aren't cruising at 45 kph but most cyclists also aren't cycling in a vacuum with no head or crosswinds. A cyclist going 24 kph into a 21 kph headwind wind has net 45 kph of airspeed going over their equipment. And that assumes a steady wind, not a more realistic gusting, swirling pattern that real-world wind tends to have.
When you account for real-world wind conditions, higher speed tests are just as, if not more, valid.
scramblin to come up with a purpose for a triathlon bike after this one
GREAT video!!!! thank you guys...
Super interesting, really appreciate all the effort. Cheers!
Beard looks great Mark!
This makes the case that aero road bikes are mainly marketing. It’s the position that matters. Not any “aero” tube shapes.
I’ve been trying to decide which bike to take to Nice for IMWC as I’m not liking the idea of descending (or climbing) on my Speedmax. Given these results, I’m just going with my Orca with clip on bars. I’m not going to be anywhere near the front anyway.
I’m going to Nice as well and also have a speedmax. I’m thinking of taking my super six evo instead with clip ons. I know I won’t podium here and would rather be comfy on my bike so I can run hard after anyway.
I'll add to the comments stating this a great video. This is what I've come to expect from GTN and co and this time you've delivered. Exactly what I wanted to see in the wind tunnel and I can gauge precisely how much time one coukd "buy" on the track with their hard earned bitcoins. Masterful decision to do it at 30kph. Thank you for this content, made me glad I subscribe.
What I'd like to see next on the wind tunnel is the two styles of clip on bar, straight forward or high up cowering your head, but do it with a cheap road helmet, not an aero TT helmet.
Update: would have been more engaging to see the results as they came through, then Mark on HQ wouldn't need to dictate lots of numbers, he could go and say his thoughts and considerations.
I really appreciate this comment. I do agree, that in hindsight there was more to unpick and discuss than I imagined. I have another video coming from the wind tunnel with that exact format.
I will look to test aero bar position in more detail, but we do have one from a couple of years ago that looks into that. I’ll try to find the link. Thanks again
ruclips.net/video/qSgK-5kC2KM/видео.html
@@markthrelfall3577 don't mention it, the video is really excellent, my comment is a side note. I've seen that other video with the praying mantis position, but my idea is: with my hands deflecting a little the wind that goes towards my head, how many watts would I THEN actually save by buying an expensive fancy tt helmet versus just using my normal road helmet (maybe it sounds crazy, I don't know how the wind works haha that's why we watch you guys!)
Found the video: What is The Best TT Bar Angle for Cycling? I didn't recall that Heather was wearing a road helmet and not a TT helmet. Counter to what I expected she was faster with her hands flat. A great comment on that video by the wind tunnel specialist was (paraphrasing) you have to play with helmets after you started to determine your sustainable position and there's lots of options but depending how you end up, more tucked in, less, the shape of the helmet is a big factor to play with, and the main goal is to stop the separation of flow behind your head, so I'd imagine "hand cowl" or no "hand cowl" the aero TT helmet is still very important because that's the main aspect that the road helmet doesn't do I reckon
It would be cool to see how the praying mantis position compares. Getting the hands up in front of the head, you almost see that position with every pro.
I noticed this when I put clip ons on my road bike. I was never able to crack 45km/h on a flat straight before and now I can go up to basically 50 if I'm pushing myself. With these things when you lay on them it's fairly easy to reach a "travel speed" of 30. And I haven't even optimized my position on it just yet ^^'
Informative
Thank you for the way you did this comparison. Specifically using the same wheels and adjusting your seat forward. This was very helpful to me. My takeaway was that a modern aero road bike with the same wheels, seat moved forward and clip on bars isn't much of an aero penalty to a tri bike. I race but I am no pro. Thus perhaps I can put my money towards a new aero road frame instead of a tri bike as the road bike will get used more often. My only question left is that it looked like the road bike had regular round bars instead of aero road bars, so I am wondering how much closer the road bike would have gotten to the tri bike with those bars on it instead?
I was debating getting clip ons for my 18km (one way commute to work) 90% of it is on roads where that position would be fine and a potential 40 watt saving at my usual cruising speed sounds almost too good to be true! After an 8 hour shift on my feet it would be great to "rest" and actually potentially go the same/higher speed
I have a 37 km commute which I've done a couple of times on my bike with aero bars. My conclusion is that the aero bars are great for the commute to work, but after a long day at work my core just does not want to even try to hold the aerobar position on the ride back home, lol. The effect is probably much less on a shorter commute though. Anyway, the commute is relatively flat and I ride it 1 h 30 min to work and 1 h 50 min back, however I am also much more tired on the way back so power is probably lower as well (I don't have a powermeter).
i’m a totally average guy. I bought a road bike to do long distance tri. i did a bike fit with and without aero bars and some half’s with this set up. i eventually made the decision to buy a TT bike. in a short ride if we are looking speed and power yes it’s the same between the two set ups. but if you want to manage your fatigue and power output over a 90k/180k the tri bike will allow it much easier. after that you have to run and then the fatigue management really comes into play. so for me is worth it.
if performance is not really important 150€ of aerobars + 150€ on a bike fit with the aerobars and people are ready to fly
Bravo ❤ save the money ride more !
Great video, very informative! :) Would also love to see a comparison with a 'beginner' bike. For example one with a wider handlebar, wires hanging out at the front, just standard wheels and a Tiagra/105-groupset. I myself ride a beginner gravel bike (thus, wide handlebars, wires at the front, wide fork clearance etc.) with clip-on aero bars at a speed for us mere mortals (30 km/h), where I swap out the wheels during a triathlon. I'm very interested in knowing whether it would be worth getting a triathlon bike besides my regular multifunctional bike in terms of costs/speed-gain.
Great tests!
I loved that an aero bike with clipon aero bars was used!
But a doubt arised, the handlebar on that orca aero was stock? Isnt it's handlebar oval instead of round for Aerodynamic purposes?
Is the stock handlebar compatible with clip-ons?
Hm, I think for a full comparison you should have also been in a more aggressive position on the road bike (without aero bars) and not as upright with your arms barely bent. When I want to ride faster, I take a more aggressive position, arms are bent further, ellbows closer to each other in front of the body, leaning forward more, not exposing myself to the wind as much. 😉
This already makes a huge difference saving power when riding a road bike. 😝
A huge problem for me. I have not been able to find clip ons for flat aero handle bars. It seems all clip ons are made for old handlebars???
Thanks for testing this. I’m conflicted between my TT bike and my tarmac both are from 2010. My conflict is that I’m doing IronMan Championship in Nice, France and I’m not a good climber… so I’ve been considering the tarmac which I’ve not taken out in 18 months. Suggestions welcomed.
For Nice, I suggest road bike with clip on TT bars
Yep road bike + clip on, Iden won on this setup on a 70.3
I'd love to see more TT vs Tri bike testing. There's lots of road vs tt or road vs tri, but not a lot of UCI legal TT vs UCI illegal Tri bikes.
Hey Brannon, we actually did a video on TT vs Tri bike if you'd like to check it out! 👉 ruclips.net/video/EZ0agCNKHUg/видео.html
@@gtn Definitely a good video, especially because I currently have a Felt B14 setup as aggressive as I can get it (but it's still comfortable for a 100 mile ride), but am wondering if a Felt IA would be quicker. 4 seconds is really close though!
U.C.I. can FFFFFFF OFF!!!!!😂😂
FOR A LONG STRAIGHT CLIP ONS WORK GREAT BUUUT VERY UNSTABLE IN THE WIND AND BUMPS IT MAKES YOUR BIKE FEEL TWITCHY JUST A WARNING
Quite surprised that the road bike with aero bars was quicker than a relaxed tt position. I would have though the drop bars hanging out in the wind would have a bigger negative effect. Could it be that a better body position accounted for the defecit? Interesting test
I fear the results of the beard testing. Maybe if it's long enough it will act as a fairing, just like Joe Skippers hydtation belly? Could tactical stubble be more aero than both clean shaven and bearded? So many questions...
It would be realy interesting to test Climbing bike vs aero Bike. Umtimate VS. Aeroad
Nice
Hi Mark i was also suprised for sure and would be intrested to know about an aero helmet vs a road helmet please
OMG the beard totally threw me off. #newlookisnice
You missed one very important test category and that is aero hood tuck. Which is when you use the brake/gear hoods as if the were vertical handlebars.
You should have tested the aero hoods against clip on aero bars and tt bars
What's the name of the Profile Design Stem shown at the end of this video in combination with the hydration system? Seems like it allows for integrated cabling yet I can't find it on the PD website.
No way Mark!!! Why is that beard and mustache? 😢 not aero tho
P.s.: great work on video and all aero information! Thanks 😊
would you test different helmets?? you were wearing the MET Trenta in all the tests which is something that age group could use in a road bike as well as a TT vs other road & TT helmets.
Good
When I went to Profile Design's website, thier carbon supersonic 35 aero bars are 627 grams, their alloy sonic ergo 35 is 559 grams. What's with that? The weight is in the arm pad and bracket. While the extensions are lighter, the carbon is heavier...
I have a question, I have seen more pro athletes with higher aero bars almost covering their face. However, in this video, the more aggressive position was lower. Can you explain why?
Hey Elena! Thanks for your question, firstly be very careful when trying to copy a pros position. A lot of pros are trying out the so called praying mantis position where they bring their hands up in front of their face to block the wind while keeping elbows low. This position has its risks however, as you have much less visibility of where you are going! We have a video of Heather trying this out here 👉 ruclips.net/video/qSgK-5kC2KM/видео.html 🙌
Thanks for the response, and good video. I have a tribike, 2016 QintanaRoo. I wonder if I can change the aerobars and if I could save more watts.
feels real goofy full pro praying mantis
It's all very informative, but I wish to know how many watts Mark saved by shaving his beard!
Great video and all… but I feel like I’m missing something. If the bike is fixed to the ground, how does the wind affect the bike?
its on rollers just hard to see them rewatch the vid
Now do beard Mark vs shaved Mark
Went cycling today and was at 30kph when 2 girls on TT bikes overtook me, I pushed to 37kph and tried to hold that speed but they were atleast going 42-45kph and causally talking 😵💫. Passed them on way home still cycling at 48kph from car gauge reading and this was 30mins after I finished my 40km cycle
For most riders a good road bike with clip ons and wheels. TT bike be faster on those riders who avg 27 mph or more.
i agree !!!❤❤ but even at lower 22mph i think....i feel it.... im a slow pro, fast amatuer
Does 108 watts for 30kph w/ clip on aero bars seems awfully low? I'm a larger rider, 193cm (6'4) and it takes me over 200watts, and I doing something completely wrong?
I was thinking the same. I'm 6ft and have been training on the assumption 180w (maybe slightly under) is required for 30kph, normal road bike position. That's basically what my wattbike tells me anyway.
Been thinking of getting aerobars anyway to drop the wattage required down regardless.
your all correct, you guys are heavier and maybe a slight bit aero wider than this skinny pro dude
between the road bike and clip ons, you might save 40 odd watts, but how much does it drop from your ftp? I race on my roadie because my body refuses to accept the extensions (I've tried countless bars and spent hours in the position). to keep the same hr/pe level, my power drops from 180w to 120w. meaning i'd still be 20w faster in a road position than in the tri bars.
Your drop in power from 180W to 120W for same RPE/HR is a definitely a "you problem". That is borderline bonkers. Regardless, the efforts you save you have done to fix it or work with it...have they been backed/supported by a professional bike fitter or what you have done by yourself? At most you should lose ~10% in with an endurance pace.
You need to practice riding in that position. Even then, 180 to 120 is ridiculous - there must be something seriously wrong with your position or your flexibility. See a bike fitter. When I first started using aerobars I had a drop of about 10% and now it's almost nothing.
What you should have discussed was the energy saved by going the same speed which you will have for the run by going clip ons or tribike.
As briefly mentioned, on the Tri bike there would be no bottles etc. Also, you would go with 60 mm front and disc wheel rear so real difference would be much bigger.
Mark, there are newbees watching this. You failed to inform them when shifting their seatposts up and saddle forward to mark and retain measurements for returning to former positions!
3:45 the important thing is what is your playlist when cycling ?
What is faster, a sworks tarmac dura ace sl5 vs a cheap tria bike?
What if all the aerodynamic gains were from his loss of beard? 😂
Interesting test. Money does buy speed but I wonder when out on the road what about the weight of the bike and how does that effect the watts you put out. I got clip on area bars and they are good but now I see the more comfy Profile design ones...... HMMMM. guess there maybe new parts in the mail. Cheers
Weight doesn't really matter on flats, and most TT's are on flattish routes. Weight only really makes a difference at gradients above 5%.
#gtncoachescorner I’ve read about the benefits of rotating running shoes but am unsure of the best way to do so. Could you provide guidance on the frequency of rotation, types of shoes (ex. carbon plated for racing), and whether shoe model should be considered (i.e. is it okay to use two completely different models or should I use two different pairs of the same)? Thanks!
Did a easy ride - 40k yesterday on my TT bike. Haven't had it out during the winter, wanted a get a bit of time back on the bike with an aero helmet etc.
According to Strava:
Average speed of 30.1kph
Average power of 171W
I don't have my position completely dialed in but i don't think it's terrible.
148w on a road bike seems crazy low, maybe that doesn't take into account things like rolling resistance/drive train losses?
Or am I just doing something really wrong somehow?
Real world testing adds a lot of variables: the wind, your tyres, the tyre pressure, the road conditions, your bike setup, how well you hold the position, your size, your bike shape etc. There's just a ton to account for.
The wind will be one of the bigger factors because it makes the areo losses that of faster speeds. Adding even 5kph of wind would be more than enough to cause the discrepancy you saw and you probably wouldn't even feel it.
That isn't to say that the test is useless. It's just more about relative changes than the hard figures.
I guess rider size needs to be taken into account, plus how much you climbed. I had 150w on my TT with 700m of climbing over 100km - good for 28kmh average. A 40km ride I'll squeeze out with an easy 33-35kmh. Wind tunnel is great, but not apples to apples across riders..
Do you have a power meter or is this Strava estimated data? The estimated stuff is rubbish. Larger riders have more frontal area and 30kph in a wind tunnel on pristine rollers is different from 30kph in real life with wind, traffic and real road surfaces.
@@themindgarage8938 I have dual sided power meter, not a huge rider. 74kg, 178cm (5'10").
This test is only for aero dynamic drag only, not rolling resistance. So basically this test is saying you need 148 watts to just overcome air resistance on the body. When out on the road you also have rolling resistance as you say, which is around 20 watts for a really fast tyre. So your 171 watts sounds about right.
8:30 - table with results
🎉
😊
Every time I see "kph" instead of the proper metric system notation of km/h is like a kick in the stomach...
im a physicist...how do you think i feel!!???...why not the correct (m/s)???
So, tell me the truth. Will I be the only one at a IM70.3 later this year on a road bike with no aero bars?
and i'm so fat, i banged 232W in sprint races on aeroad and barely avg 32kmh. lol
There was something wrong in the set up. You didn't shave your beard! 😆
My question would be:
Difference in Watts between shaved and hairy legs 😂?
Cheers!
The GCN channel actually did a wind tunnel test on just that.
different, look at world swimmers!!!
Next GTN challenge: James vs. a banana
What really needs to be tested in order to compare a TT vs Road bike is riding with the exact same aggressive body position …ala Nicola Spirig. I bet the watts savings would be just marginal.
so why should I buy a raodbike ? to be slow and not aerodynamic ?
If you made this video two months ago I would have saved the $6k I spent on a tri bike...sigh.
no worries you can sell it, and go vintage olympic or tour de france!!!❤❤❤ or even a outlaw TT with small front wheel!!! big boy rides
Please test 36km/hr.. This a target the all traithletes
I'm curious, what's significant about 36kph?
@@mickey4148 36kph =36 Kilometre per hours
It's a very round mumber. It has multiples of 1,2,3,4,6,9,12, and 18! (maybe not quite what you were after, sorry:) )
22.3 mph....thats fast
Your head position on the comfortable TT setup was really bad. You can still turtle with a more upright position and probably get closer to the lower position in terms of wattage saved.
Absolutely, but that’s how many people ride, so it’s only fair to test that
you slightly wrong, air load is speed cube! + mass load = more or less, change in speed CUBED is watts needed
Drag force is speed squared. Power needed to overcome drag is force times speed, so speed cubed.
45/30=1.5 and 1.5^3=3.375, versus 473/148=3.20. Not perfect (other smaller forces, wheels, drivetrain losses, are not cubic), but pretty close.
@@misolo wel im glad your figuring it out!!👏👏👏❤️😳, kenetic energy is you on a bike, that is speed squared, air load drag is cube... add the 2 together + friction losses as you say gears/ heat ect.... watts in = watts out, except if accelerating faster or slower velocities...its all quite fascinating....above around 25mph the air cube load is higher watts than kenetic energy...
@lunam7249 I wasn't figuring it out, just explaining that the statement that drag is proportional to the square of speed is not "slightly wrong" but in fact entirely correct. What's missing is P=Fv.
@@misolo KE = 1/2 MV^2 = 1/2 (mass = 1.29 kg/m^3 X velocity) x VELOCITY^2 = 1/2 mass X V X V^2 = 1/2 mass x v^3 = ke....watts = ke / second.....PRESSURE IS V^2 as you state...pressure, watts used is = V^3
Wanting to see road bike in drops...
Mark's beard and jersey ain't aero 🤣
The results are worth nothing on the TT BIKE!!! The road bike comparison tho is comparable.
On the TT Bike your neck and head is up with shoulders rounded and your looking up the road on comfortable geometry position, making ur head way above your flat back and in more aggressive geometry position you lift your shoulders and drop your head and neck and look down, with your head being level or below your flat back. All the watts savings are from your head being much much lower.
On the road bike your body position is different but in both positions your are still looking up the road without trying to deliberately drop your head.
OK wind tunnel test are OK but not in the real world
Please...Stop with the ear rape music on these GCN channels constantly...A video with loud volume right on start....mmm
yeah!!!!❤ all vids are doing this SHHHHIIIIIII!!!!
The reason you didn't see a difference in clip on and full aero is because the bike doesn't matter. Wheels and rider (and what they are wearing) matter more than the frame and if the cables are hidden. Consumers need to stop buying (both figuratively and figuratively) marketing BS. All bike manufacturers lie about the improvements we gain from spending thousands of dollars/pounds/euros. We've seen it with press fit BB and we are about to see it with hookless rims. (I was however wrong about disc brakes, they are amazing)
Test was botched. You have to do it WITHOUT the facial hair! Go back to the wind tunnel . . . NOW!
Go back and ask yo mate elgin mate 😂
@@PhiyackYuh oh, it’s again. Elgin is not into triathlon. However, there’s another Texan cyclist that actually started out as a formidable triathlete. Guess who?🤣
😂
Is the road bike felt as well?
Does anyone recognize this Frameset?
FELT tri, newer
I'm guessing you never ride into a head wind?
THis this and more this. People always confuse airspeed and groundspeed!
😊