Sonic who hasn’t aged a single bit even though he’s had more than one birthday and his games are stated to take place over the course of multiple months and years. Whereas the Mario characters actually age.
My god, it is obviously canon? Like my dude it’s a sweater are you saying Mario doesn’t have sweaters like my dude sweaters and clothes are in Mario like why are you saying Mario had no clothes do you want Mario to be naked like my dude dude dude what like it’s so obvious like my dude
Mario RPGs feel like feature length movies based on a TV show that's episodic in nature. By that I mean, Mario's mainline games follow the exact same formulas more or less, and don't have much in the form of stakes or tension since they're predictable and not varied much. By contrast, a Mario RPG will introduce an entirely new world, where the stakes are much higher, and you end up with chaotic stuff like "these alien toads are going to destroy the world" or "an previously unknown group of super baddies is planning to summon a demon spirit and take over the planet". But then, just like a movie based on a kid's tv show, once this plot concludes the whole world "resets", all of what transpired is forgotten, and you go back to another random Tuesday afternoon of catching Bowser and rescuing Peach.
And also apparently the Toads either have no schools at all or have absolutely no memory whatsoever for forgetting an ALIEN INVASION that only happened like 20 years ago for them like bruh.
This is probably the closest interpretation I have for Mario's adventures throughout the games - mainline is kinda episodic although has a theme, while RPGs are serialized, however every time a reference from the spin-offs are brought up with each other, at the very least you'd feel that the Mario you're playing in MP6 for example is the same Mario who met his partnership from PM64 IMO.
What is also interesting, in Thousand Year Door, there's a character in the game called Podley. Who is a bean person from the Beanbean Kingdom and sells Chuckola Cola (a beverage introduced in Superstar Saga). And TTYD came one year after Superstar Saga, so by that I like to think that both Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi take place in the same world.
I think the flexibility of Mario-- as well as the severe lack of contradictions throughout the series, is exactly why Mario canon is so interesting. To be clear, Mario does not have a solid timeline or overarching story. But he absolutely does have a continuity. Games are self-contained, but they're littered with references, lore, and expansions upon past ideas. Even games by different developers try to fit Mario properly into the world. Mario is extremely malleable, yet everything feels coherent and consistent despite that. Confusions like Baby DK and Paper Jam are extremely rare occurrences. It's amazing how Mario, a series which the majority of the fandom has decided "has no canon" is remarkably more consistent than the Sonic series, which is full of constant contradictions and retcons. As others in the comments have said, the Paper Mario series are supposed to be adaptations of adventures the real Mario had. Paper Jam is merely a re-contextualization. Instead of playing through the books that were written about those adventures, we're playing them from the perspective of a parallel world's Mario, who had the same adventures, but is made of Paper. Super Mario RPG may feel out of place, but it was also one of the first expansions upon Mario's world, and its influence still sticks around to this day. Paper Mario is very in-line with mainline Mario, but it's also a direct continuation of things established in Mario RPG. Everything we have today is due to the things set in place by earlier games, and that includes Mario RPG, which, while it feels out of place, is not too much different from the vibes of the Mario & Luigi series, which are incredibly Mario-y feeling. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if some Paper Mario characters appeared in the next Mario Kart. It's unlikely, but it's absolutely possible. More now than ever. Paper Mario just wasn't relevant for a long time. Mario & Luigi was never really ever that relevant. But now the Thousand-Year Door is a major release that Nintendo is putting a lot of attention on. The Mario spin-offs like to highlight things from various games, but usually only if they're relevant. And now that Luigi's Mansion and Paper Mario are more relevant again, we could see E Gadd and Kammy Koopa in the next Mario Kart.
The thing about Mario as a “canon” is that, because it’s an episodic franchise that is not expected to keep a tight narrative, it’s much easier to write off oddities. Frontiers-era Sonic wants to portray the entire franchise as a continually developing story, so when there are problems and bad logic, it becomes much more of a big deal. Mario is allowed to be fun, but Sonic *has* to be cool. When you don’t sweat the little details, it becomes easy to appreciate the big picture, and how each game’s writing adds new ideas into the series. For example, Super Mario RPG is anything but an island. It’s the first major game in the franchise to introduce stars not just as a power-up, but as mythological power sources, which is an idea games as recent as Odyssey have expanded on. It’s the first game to feature Peach’s Castle, a reoccurring franchise set-piece. It’s the first time Bowser is shown to have a soft side and a degree of care for his minions - a dimension of the character we don’t even question anymore. Many things we take for granted about the brand identity of Mario can be traced back to SMRPG. Since it gets a reference in the video, not worrying about little things and thinking through the series on a macro-level is also how Zelda is written, which I think has great continuity despite what people say.
@lukergamerz4455 I've found that a lot of people consider things they just don't like to be "contradictions." Which I think is why people get so confused with Zelda and such. Zelda does indeed have a pretty solid continuity, despite the timeline messing some stuff up. If you ignore the timeline and just look at the games, it becomes much more coherent. I really admire Nintendo's way of handling Mario & Zelda and I think it makes theorizing a lot more fun
@@DaNintendude Mario has a *few* real contradictions, but most of them are fairly minor and can just be chalked up to one-time mistakes, like Cranky Kong calling Donkey his "son" in DK64 and being unambiguously his grandfather in every single other appearance. It's not that contradictions never happen, it's just... most of them don't really have any lore implications. Just isolated cases where a single thing is wrong or mismatched with what we know about the series, and can be disregarded as a simple error.
@@DaNintendude Sooo... your position is... it's not a contradiction... if you ignore it? Zelda has horrible continuity, each game is almost specifically designed _not_ to fit together, at least from Wind Waker going forward. Every game beforehand, yes, even the CD-i games, fit perfectly on one uninterrupted timeline. People find things that contradict each other to be contradictions, where are you even coming from?
@@Wendy_O._Koopa My position is "where are the contradictions?" The games themselves are disconnected, yes, that's the point. But the connections they _do_ have are pretty well done. Wind Waker and Twilight Princess are wonderfully linked to Ocarina of Time. Skyward Sword gives an origin to the series that naturally expands upon the lore established in other games. The actual contradictions I've noticed as usually pretty small, aside from the timeline, which, isn't _in_ the games. The games themselves contradict the timeline, with A Link Between Worlds ignoring Hyrule Historia to restate and further cement A Link to the Past's lore. I think really the only big contradiction that I can think of off the top of my head is BOTW saying that Ruto was a sage that sealed Ganon away. If you try to make your own sense of the canon, without taking the suggested Hyrule Historia timeline, you can make connections much easier. Supposed "contradictions" no longer exist, because you're not tied to a timeline telling you where that game is supposed to be. The timeline says Four Swords Adventures is several generations after the original Four Swords, but the game clearly intends itself to be a direct sequel with the same Link & Zelda and everything. The beauty of the Zelda series is that you're supposed to come to your own conclusions and make your own theories. It's up to us to identify contradictions, think about if they're actually contradictions, and theorize on how different parts of the series can fit together.
The whole real world/paper world thing isn't nearly as confusing as you make it sound. At the end of Paper Mario 64, Herringway the author says that he plans to make a book about the adventure Mario just went on and will name it "Paper Mario". We play through the events of this story as they happen in the book world, but they're based on a real event from the real world (supported by various PM64 characters like Goombario, the Star Spirits, and even Whacka making cameos in non-paper games). The catch is that the world inside the book keeps going after the story it was originally based on concludes, thus leading to new original adventures that don't have real world counterparts because the paths that the two worlds took diverged somewhere along the way. (unlike PM64, TTYD is never referenced by anything other than future PM games, Paper Jam, or Smash Bros., so the real world and book world timelines had likely already split before TTYD began) Furthermore, when the entire universe is reset in Galaxy, that would logically include the world inside the book too, which would explain why Origami King Toad Town looks nothing like PM64 Toad Town. Then, Paper Jam happens and the characters from within the book become self aware of their paper nature. This is why they start talking about getting creased or torn and stuff in Sticker Star onward, because they didn't KNOW they were made of paper before this point. This crossover is also the most likely culprit for where the "Things" in the modern PM trilogy came from, they're real world objects that ended up in the book world while the connection between the two was open. Also on a side note, SMRPG is also definitely still canon as well. It's explicitly stated in Birdo's MKWii bio (and before you ask, all Mario Kart games are 100% canon too) that she lives in Nimbus Land, and since MKWii can only happen after Galaxy (due to Rosalina being here), that means that Nimbus Land is still around even now, after the universe got reset. (so hey, that probably means Mallow is also fine and didn't get erased from existence or anything lol) So yeah, all your favorite RPGs can absolutely fit into the canon with little to no issues. ^_^
The Mario Kart Wii Prima guide is absolutely not canon. Prima is not Nintendo and there are many Prima guides that are riddled with mistakes and straight up misinformation. That same guide says Toadette is Toad's sister, and that Peach and Daisy are cousins. It also states that Birdo's homeland is Subcon, and that it was taken over by Wart. Birdo literally worked _with_ Wart to take over Subcon. It is not her home. And it would make no sense for her to live in Nimbus Land. She was allied with Valentina, and Valentina was driven out of Nimbus Land during Mario RPG. We don't know where Birdo lives, but Nimbus Land is very unlikely. The Prima guide character bios were just some guy trying to make as many references as possible without realizing he was getting a lot of information wrong
Please reread my second paragraph more closely. I explicitly mentioned Smash as one of the things that DOES reference future Paper Mario games, specifically BECAUSE it's equally unviable as proof of anything. A TTYD character appearing in Smash means literally nothing because Smash itself isn't canon to the Mario series to begin with. The Mario in Smash isn't even the same Mario from the Mario series, he's someone's toy/figurine of Mario who came to life through the power of imagination. Sometimes Smash CAN be used to learn canon info, like Toon Link's age, and rarely it IS canon to specific series (Kirby, Kid Icarus, and MAYBE Fire Emblem?) but most of the time, it's should be treated like it's in its own bubble, which things can enter but not leave.
my personal "headcanon"s are - all mario games are canon, and all mario's from those games are the same mario. (this rule can kinda go universal gravitation depending on what game it is but i do want to fit every mario game into my own story in my little brain) - the paper mario games do happen to The Real Mario. all of those adventures are written into the "paper world" book, and therefore paper jam bros. can happen because with this new little tidbit, "paper mario" and mario can co-exist and despite this i still don't have a coherent timeline in my head. thank you super mario series! awesome video :]
The Super Mario Maker games are set in a digital “Course Maker” World, like Mario Paint, so they wouldn’t say much about the “real” Mario World, but the RPGs and Super Mario Run confirm that they remodel the castle between games, yeah.
I feel like since everything is intentionally unconnected, its totally worth just making up a timeline headcanon for fun. If there's no real canon, people can make one themselves
Here's what people always forget about Paper Mario. Canonically, it is a book since the first entry. HOWEVER, the events and adventure "Paper" Mario went through were based on what Mario actually did. This means PM64 and possibly TTYD are both in-universe stories and adventures Mario really went on (not sure about TTYD's glider and so on). From SPM onwards, it's possible that the book took a few creative liberties and the actual adventure was similar to whay we see in game, but anything after is definitely book-original and not what the actuak Mario did.
I personally think the Paper Mario games go through the same events as the mainline series but the said Paper Mario games are exclusive to that dimension or whatever you'd want to call it *Also, Paper Mario is one of the few pieces of Mario Media to feature Orange Toad's, which constantly has me discussing with people about it's place in the canon* 💀
Shigeru Miyamoto literally announced that he views the cast as an acting troupe, everything is canonically non-canon. He doesn't use the term, but the trope he describes is "negative continuity," like in old cartoons such as Looney Tunes, Mickey Mouse & Friends, or and this is the one he specified: Popeye (which you may recall, Mario is based on, or was originally). Whenever I point this out, bad faith actors scramble outta the woodwork, and say "In this _particular_ translation of the interview, he says "like an acting troupe," not that they "are an acting troupe!" like that's some huge own. What would it mean then? How could that possibly change what he said? Worst case scenario, he isn't sure if that's the right word to use. Plus, with his over-documented hatred of plot and story, why would anyone doubt he favors negative continuity?
Continuity ala Spongebob seems the most plausible in where they can end the episode with a seemingly unreversable element but it then goes to status quo next episode but doesn't discount incorporating elements from past episodes.
@@zjzr08Spongebob's a pretty good example. Sometimes they'll do outright sequel episodes like Bubble Buddy returns, but they'll also do things like constantly change whether Squidward likes or even has eaten Krabby Patties before depending on what fits the joke.
But yeah, it's clear that the games are (mostly) all supposed to be their own self-contained universes, with some little easter eggs acknowledging other games. I think the main exception is the Mario & Luigi series, which, in spite of still having some continuity issues, does things like having characters explicitly mention specific events from previous games, or giving characters arcs that take place over the course of multiple games. Even Zelda, which is a more story-based series, contextualizes itself in a way that lets them make each game pretty separate, having them be generations apart.
One of the fundamental problems with Mario is that there’s only so many times that Bowser can kidnap the princess or do something else nasty and Not leave the fans, wanting a deeper plot
@@orangeman3505 the RPG games proved it can work, especially in terms of fleshing out the world and having depth to its writing. While there's nothing wrong with a simpler plot, there's also plenty of interesting stuff to be done with a deeper plot as well. Super Paper Mario is one of the better examples imo.
My head cannon is that all paper Mario games up to sticker star is just another mario adventure but in paper due to being told by someone. So Mario & Luigi are cannon, paper jam is when the alternative world that's fully paper (sticker Star, color splash, and origami king take place in that world) crossed over to the main world. Not sure about super Mario RPG though.
For Paper Jam It has never been implied that Paper Mario is from another Universe or they never stated to be a different Mario Paper Mario In Japan is called Mario's story And it's game that retells Marios past Adventures Paper jam is just that Mario from the storybooks brought to life
@BowserEditz I think had Sticker Star not started the Action Adventure trend and reduction of characters designs, people wouldn't give a shit about the Paper stuff.
It had never been implied, _before_ Paper Jam. Paper Jam is notorious for the retcon of turning it into a separate universe, contained in a book, like Winnie-the-Pooh in Kingdom Hearts. It's an interesting headcanon, but did you even play the game? There's nothing that "brings him to life," the book just opens and the portal between the dimensions opens. You're just trying to fix a retcon with _another_ retcon.
I really think Nintendo's approach of "characters need to already be relevant to casual audiences before we can consider them for Mario Kart" is so backwards and leads to a depressing cycle. Mario RPGs are currently sadly known to a niche audience, and I think people discovering them via seeing a character from them in Mario Kart could help change that. But Nintendo would rather it happen the other way around and their marketing alone clearly isn't working. I think any Mario game that has a character representing it in Mario Kart is instantly going to be bigger and more well known just from that alone. At least playable. Especially the ones that aren't a thing someone might mistake for an original design. Goomboss for example, I hadn't played Paper Mario when I first played SM64DS and MKDS, and my first thought was he was a new character created by SM64DS, especially since Chief Chilly also existed in a similar vein, a king/royal version of a common enemy. But someone like Fawful or Vivian isn't based on a common Mario species so nobody would think they're just a random OC inserted into a Mario Kart roster, they'd know they came from SOME previous Mario game and would be more inclined to look into that. Also even for Goomboss if he had been playable more people may have traced him back to Paper Mario, but the renaming from Goomba King definitely also didn't help with that. I don't think there's anything fundamentally different about RPG characters design wise either, the ones I mentioned are no stranger than Nabbit visually. The only ones I could maybe see their design being a small issue is those from Super Paper Mario, but years of fanart has proven that those characters can easily work in more organic, less geometric designs too, and that was just SPM's art direction.
One easy explanation for the changes in recurring locales between games is that the Mushroom Kingdom keeps having to rebuild. Bowser invades a lot, after all.
I always thought it would be cool if the next huge new 3D Mario game combines all of the canon from all of the spin-offs and characters series into one game and just has all of the major stuff on screen either in the story or gameplay.
I do have a theory on how the Mario timeline works! SMRPG obviously takes place in mainline. The Paper Mario series in 2000-2007 are both mainline & book because in Superstar Saga the nostalgia room shows the blocks from Mario's past, specifically one of the blocks from the first Paper Mario. Which means Superstar Saga takes place after Paper Mario, Partners in Time after PMTTYD, & Bowser inside Story after SPM. After the events of SPM the book universe becomes it's own separate reality, with the Paper Mario series 2012-2020 taking place in the book now. This explains the whole Paper physics & stuff. After SPM the timeline for the mainline Mario & Luigi series is a straight line, until Paper Jam when the book universe gets merged with the mainline universe. But after everything the main & book timeline separate again going through a straight line of there own timeline. Oh & incase if your wondering, yes the remakes are indeed canon in the same year. And with that the timeline is complete.
7:47 My interpretation is that everything up to sticker star has been adventures Mario HAS been on with everything after that being separate PAPER Mario adventures. The book had gained stories of its own.
I just like to believe there are 2 seperate Mario’s The Mainline Mario (M&L, SMRPG & All the platformers, spinoffs, sports games etc) And Paper Mario (Whose world takes place within the storybook world within the main universe) So basically I believe that Paper Mario takes place in a pocket dimension
The world of Mario and that of paper Mario is very strange since if it is said that paper Mario is based on the adventure that Mario had in the real world, it means that Mario's companions must have existed how goombella goombario kooper koops etc in the real world but it's sad since almost Mario has no history or a chronology he accommodated Even though it's good and I've seen that Nintendo is interested in what the Paper Mario community thinks about whether they like Mario RPGs or whether they loved the characters they made in the two Paper Marios. Possibly if we have these characters in a spin off of Mario or Mario Kart or even in the main Mario Bros saga
I don't mind if the different Mario series don't share any continuity, but I'd at least like each series to have continuity. The first three Paper Mario games made it very obvious that they all take place in the same world, since Mario's house always looked the same and there were plenty of references to past events and characters. But then all that was thrown out with Sticker Star and the subsequent games didn't pick it back up. Nintendo may not care, but to players like me, worldbuilding and continuity make us fall in love with these games on a whole other level. But it seems like some developers at Nintendo don't want Mario's world to be that deep and just want it to be mindless fun.
My headcanon is that the first 3 Paper Mario games take place in the regular Mario continuity and that it's only the ones from Sticker Star onward that take place in the book world from Paper Jam.
All 6 take place in the book world, but the book World is parallel to the real one, therefore all 6 games also happened to the real Mario - we just see them from a paper perspective.
On paper, establishing an official canon isn't really all that difficult. It's just Nintendo needs to stop being stingy towards the newer developers regarding story and characters. This stinginess explains why Super Mario Odyssey doesn't reintroduce a lot of characters despite introducing an actual world map.
Everything is Canon. From the various locations like Dry Dry Desert, Mushroom City, Toad Town, Moo Moo Meadows, Dolphin Shoals, etc. Just because you can’t see them doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Bob-ombs blowing up for fun and Bob-ombs blowing up and dying can’t really explain this one. But I don’t really believe enemies or characters from the Mario series die. It’s kind of like when you watch those Looney Tunes cartoons and characters get blown up or fall apart. Nothing is ever life threatening.
If Sonic has some fans have the attitude of "don't even try" in trying to piece the canon, I can say it's more so for Mario. But even then, I always felt the rule was "as long as it doesn't contradict, it's fair game". You could say the locations of Peach's castle can be seen as contradictions but frankly it could be seen as recontextualization that needs to be done for the needs of the game. The very likely reality is that Peach's castle is located near to a Toad village, which Paper Mario gives an example. Even if I have gripes with the Illumination Mario movie, I think it has the closest visualization of the reality of the Mario universe (although tacking in the Kart elements were weird) albeit not using Power Stars or Star Spirits does make the world limited still. But we saw there Yoshi's Island, desert areas, Bowser's Dark Land, and an icy area. Needs to be fleshed out sure but they are there in distinct areas. Even the New York lore I believe can be true, although wasn't explained well.
8:35 from what I’ve heard apparently paper Mario is a retelling of adventures Mario has been on but in the form of paper Also Mario and Luigi brothership hype
Surprised you didn’t mention Geno in the first Mario and Luigi game, Merlon in Paper Mario being a Shaman from Mario RPG, or Podley in TTYD being a beanish from Mario and Luigi.
Well, if there are problems of building Mario's canon, here's my idea for a fan-game. A game featuring none of the Mario universe's cast, instead drawing from original characters who debuted in Super Mario RPG and a few of its successors. Including the fan-favorite Geno as the protagonist.
I feel liks the first three paper marios games where just actal mario doing stuff being told via story. Super paper mario could be another reset which created an actal paper mario that shows up in the mario and luigi series. Thus the real mario never experinced sticker star heh.
I do have a personal head cannon as to why paper Mario and regular Mario are different characters in paper jam. You know how after the events of Galaxy, the universe reset itself? Well, it also created copies of the old world, including one made of paper. I think the first 3 paper Mario games did happen in the real world and were later written into a book, which, after the events of galaxy, somehow became a “portal” to the paper universe. After the events of paper jam, we start to see some realistic supplies in the modern paper Mario games. Hence, sticker star color splash and origami king are the only paper Mario games to happen exclusively in the paper universe.
I have a statement where everything is technically canon-even Mario and Sonic at the Olympics/Super Smash Bros. It's very controversial to say the least...
Wasn’t it recently confirmed that Mario is the same in every game entry? Like, even including the cameos in other series as well? So, wouldn’t it automatically mean that ALL of the games are canon?
I view Mario as kind of in the same category as a meme character such as Chad or Wojak. There is a canonical character, but there are many iterations with different stories. Or in programming terms, it's kind of like Mario is a class and the Mario in each game is an instance of that class.
It's easier to understand when broken down like this: Mainline Mario and Paper Mario are akin to Modern Sonic and his storybook games (Secret Rings/Black Knight). Both exist properly in the same canon, but are different worlds. In this case, the world of Paper Mario existing within a storybook of the Mainline Mario.
I want Paper Mario to canonically be a different character because that means we can possibly get him in Smash. There’s three links and two Samuses plus a clone, but only two Mario’s and Doc is not as unique as Paper would be. To me they’ve got completely different personalities, with Paper Mario being quiet but non- verbally very expressive, whereas Super Mario is Bing bing wahoo lets a go mama mia- I like both but I see it more as a parallel universe situation. I groan at the over saturation of paper puns but I thought TTYD had struck the perfect balance with curses. I also don’t mind an ever so slight white outline on the sprites but that’s as far as I’d go.
Paper Mario is literally regular Mario. They're both quiet. It's just that mainline Mario games usually gave him more one liners to use. All the expressions Mario does in the Paper Mario games, Mario would also use in the mainline Mario games, but it's a lot more noticeable in the Paper Mario games due to how more cartoonish everything looks.
Also, the difference is that the developers of games like Kirby and Metroid actually pay close attention to the lore. It's a nice touch but not needed for every series.
What? Paper Mario is canon, paper jam is based off the past events in Mario, paper jam isn’t stated to be a parrael universe, the pm references in other games and the hooniversity, all rpg games are canon.
Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario are equally canon to the main Mario universe. Heck, both Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario even connects with each other through their stories and I'm not talking about Paper Jam. I'm talking stuff like the species from the Bean Kingdom like Podley is in TTYD and Chuckacola is a drink that's connected in both Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario.
Problem with the canon? Oh, I know this one, I know this one! They don't care. For all intents and purposes each piece of Mario media may as well be a new continuity. I can't even confidently say Galaxy 2 even happened after Galaxy since they have nothing to do with each other story-wise. The anime Mario movie from the 90s, the 1993 live action movie, and the 2023 Illumination movie all have radically different "origin stories" for Mario/Luigi. Only the RPG series have real continuity within themselves, Star Road appearing at some point in all three Mario RPG series. Even then, the mainline Mario games don't reference events from these games at all. Mario Party 5 references the Star Spirits from Paper Mario and, like, Super Smash Bros. features some content from the RPGs but otherwise they go completely unacknowledged. Paper Mario really stopped having continuity after Super, woth tenuous references to previous partners but no story connection. Things appear in each game of the modern trilogy but none of the story elements indicate that Mario has interacted with them before, for all we know, when the Fan Thing appears in Origami King, it's the first time he's dealt with it because Sticker Star didn't happen in that game's continuity. Modern PM retired Kammy without any explanation to her whereabouts. Oh yeah, Sticker Star references Goombella and Kolorado but that's seriously it. Don't even get me started on the implications of Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam.
8:20 a lot can be explained with the idea that Peach & Bowser have multiple castles; 1) It explains all the geographical inconsistencies 2) We already know that Bowser has multiple castles 3) It explains why Bowser wants to kidnap/marry Peach (It gives him acces to every castle that she owns) 4) It also explains the incosistencies of Mario's house (he also has multiple houses so that he's always close to Peach, also explains why it's specifically Mario' house) 5) It explains why Peach's castle is often barely defended (her troops are defending other castles and that's why she is in another castle) 6) It explains why we never see Peach's parents (read point 3 & 5)
I genuinely don't know why the Paper Mario series is such a hot topic of debate. It seems incredibly clear that it's a separate continuity that doesn't happen in mainline. The only game that has any chance of happening in the 3D World is the first one, which isn't even known as a Paper Mario game in Japan, it's called Mario's Story (which is how I'll be referring to it from now on), and has WAY less paper elements than every other game in the series, yes, TTYD included. Starting with TTYD, the series was all called Paper Mario even in Japan. Mario's Story is the only one that has been referenced by other games in any meaningful way, and even then, it is INCREDIBLY shaky whether that means the exact events of Mario's Story happened. For starters, most of them are in spinoff titles which have debatable canonicity to begin with, such as Mario Kart and Mario Party, and secondly, they don't even line up with their depictions in Mario's Story. Dry Dry Desert/Dry Dry Ruins in Mario Kart? Mario Kart is debatably canon, the Dry Dry Desert/Dry Dry Ruins depicted is different from the one in Mario's Story, and Dry Dry Desert/Dry Dry Ruins is an incredibly generic name. In Japan, there are like five different areas all named Dry Dry Desert. This is a very weak argument. Star Spirits in Mario Party? Again, Mario Party is debatably canon, and the existence of characters in both worlds doesn't directly confirm the events of Mario's Story. They can reuse designs. And I find it wild that this one is brought up so much, because they have *entirely different roles* than in Mario's Story. In Mario's Story, they're known as the Star Spirits and guard Star Haven and the Star Rod. In Mario Party 5, they're known as the Star Guards, and guard the Dream Depot, which houses everybody's dreams. Similar roles, sure, but objectively different. It is almost a direct contradiction that would mean they HAVE to be different worlds. The only saving grace this has is that MAYBE they could guard both places, but that's very shaky, especially when you're already down the rabbit hole of Mario Party having shaky canonicity. You have to assume so much with no evidence to make this work. And I mean, just LOOK at any of the Paper Mario games post Mario's Story. You have to jump through so many hoops to make them work in the 3D World. How does Flurrie blowing away things work? She blows away things in TTYD because they're paper. You'd have to assume that the 3D Flurrie has the power to blow away whole solid objects. How do the curses in TTYD work? They cause Mario to fold up into all sorts of paper shapes. You'd have to assume that these curses allow 3D Mario to turn into paper at will no evidence to suggest this happened. Does Flip in Super Paper Mario ALSO turn him into paper? And speaking of Super Paper Mario, the 3D mechanic. How does THAT work? Basically everything in Sticker Star and later. It makes way more sense to just say these games are a different world with different events, especially since anything after Mario's Story isn't referenced in a meaningful way, and Paper Jam very blatantly confirms that they're separate. "Actually, Paper Jam confirms they're parallel." I see this argument so much but it very much doesn't do that. Paper Peach slips through bars that regular Peach can't. Mario has a moment of doubt over not being able to turn into a Paper Airplane like Paper Mario can, and two Green Toads discuss turning into a Paper Airplane and flying over the gap on Mount Brrr. Here's the dialogue. "Just turn into a Paper Airplane and fly over to check it out! What are you afraid of?" "Easy for you to say!" "Well, how about getting some friends together and making yourselves into a kite?" "I think our kite would be a bit more like an anchor..." Very blatantly shows they are separate worlds with separate rules that would likely change these characters' lives in drastic ways. People point out the Bowsers having the same conversation with their Kameks a lot, but not that right before that, Bowser says "I'll rule" and Paper Bowser says "You mean WE'LL rule", showing that Paper Bowser is more loyal than Bowser. And then there's the whole thing of Paper Luigi not joining the party. Speaking of Luigi, Starlow says this about him after Paper Mario looks him over. "You confused him with the Luigi from your world, didn't you? Actually, this Luigi is totally different." Blatantly says they're totally different. When it comes to this argument, it genuinely feels like people are just cherry picking evidence to support their narrative. Paper Jam is very clear about what it intends. The only problem is that it has a very simplistic plot that's more interested in saying "Haha look two Peaches" then really exploring the implications of these two separate worlds, but any time that they do that, they make it clear that they are separate and different. ...okay I got a bit of out control, apologizes for the massive rant. This specific debate just REALLY irritates me, and I don't understand why it exists at all. If anything, I would think people would WANT them to be separate. Having two different worlds with unique rules and unique events is way more interesting and has way more potential for cool stories than two worlds that are the same aside from looks. I just don't get it.
Since TTYD and SPM take place after Paper Mario 64, even acknowledging the events of that game, they automatically take place in the same universe as Paper Mario 64, thus taking place in the mainline Mario universe. Mario's curse abilities in TTYD is no different from Mario's Cappy abilities in terms of "strangeness", so I can see that happen in the mainline Mario universe. And the world in SPM literally stated Mario transported in a different dimension in flipside, so while to us it's 2D to 3D, in the point of view of the story, it's 3D to 4D. Also, Paper Jam is just doing crossover sake, it doesn't count and it's irrelevant to the series themselves. Mario doesn't use FLUDD in Mario Galaxy and Mario Odyssey, so does that mean Mario Sunshine doesn't exist? Mario continuity breaks its own even by just going in the mainline games, so how do we expect they'll treat the spinoffs the same. They all are just canon, it's simple as that to be honest.
@@retrofan4963 "Since TTYD and SPM take place after Paper Mario 64, even acknowledging the events of that game, they automatically take place in the same universe as Paper Mario 64, thus taking place in the mainline Mario universe." That 1. Assumes Paper Mario 64 is canon which is not confirmed. 2. Doesn't actually mean anything. The events of Paper Mario 64 can happen in both universes, while the events of TTYD and beyond can only happen in one universe. There's no contradiction there. The only way that argument works is in reverse, if TTYD was canon then Paper Mario 64 would have to be canon. But TTYD isn't even referenced in any meaningful way, so that isn't a thing. "Mario's curse abilities in TTYD is no different from Mario's Cappy abilities in terms of "strangeness", so I can see that happen in the mainline Mario universe. " I agree. The strangeness is absolutely in line with mainline Mario. That was never the argument. The curse abilities are all gimmicks playing off of the fact that the characters are made of paper. Mario is not made of paper in the mainline Mario universe. He can't flip sideways to slip through cracks, or roll up into a tube, or fold up into an airplane. You would have to assume that, in the mainline universe, these curses have different rules, and deliberately turn the person who is cursed into paper, which is purely conjecture. "Also, Paper Jam is just doing crossover sake, it doesn't count and it's irrelevant to the series themselves." That is blatantly cherry picking. And it IS relevant to the series themselves. Bowser's character development from Dream Team is maintained (He refers to Luigi by his name and not Green Stache), Neo Bowser Castle from Dream Team returns, The Paper Koopalings in Color Splash are foreshadowed by Paper Jam, and Paper Jam's white outline artstyle for the paper characters went on to become a mainstay in the Paper Mario series. The only way this argument works is if the entire Mario & Luigi series is non-canon, which is genuinely a fair argument since it is not referenced much either, but if Mario & Luigi is non-canon, Paper Mario is ABSOLUTELY non-canon, as there is WAY more working against it than there is for Mario & Luigi. "Mario continuity breaks its own even by just going in the mainline games," It doesn't though. When you're just focusing on mainline games, (most commonly accepted as the 2D and 3D platformers like Super Mario Bros, Super Mario 64, etc) everything is very clean and lines up, with the exception of minor stuff like the layout of Peach's Castle. Problems only come in when we start factoring spinoffs, and even then, most of them fit in just fine or even have strong evidence supporting them, like Luigi's Mansion. The issue here is that the Paper Mario series (Post Paper Mario 64 at the least) presents a version of the Mario world with drastically different rules that are very blatantly showcased and told to us all the time. The characters are made out of paper. Many events in the games rely on the fact that the characters and the world are made out of paper. Mainline Mario, and his world, are not made out of paper. So how could these events happen? Paper Jam comes in and gives us a clean explanation. The Paper Mario series all takes place within a book/books, the ones that we have always seen in the intros of basically every Paper Mario game. That contradiction is resolved with a neat explanation that has cool lore implications, and yet everyone refuses to accept it for some reason.
@@accomplishedshipyard The Paper Mario series itself made it clear that the events of the stories takes place in past mainline Mario adventures told in a storybook. The Mario & Luigi series itself is also canon and even share that both series takes place in the same world that contradicts Paper Jam. The curses abilities doesn't play with the fact they're made of paper, contrary believe it or not. If anything, it confirms that the characters are not made of paper since Mario has to be cursed in order to do these abilities since he can't do it naturally being made of skin and flesh. Same thing with Flurrie since she can only blow away certain objects made of paper because the rest of the environments are not made of paper within the story. Maybe the reason why mainline Mario can't do these curse abilities anymore is because he lost these abilities over time, heck Super Paper Mario confirms this since he doesn't do these abilities anymore and he needs an actual pixie to do the Paper mode again. Sure, Paper Jam continues certain aspects of Dream Team, but the whole premise is just made for crossover sake instead of doing what makes sense.
Knowledge of mainline canon, or rather just plain admitting its state, helps a lot in understanding Mario. It's not complexity that is the issue so much as accepting the harsh reality of what Mario canon actually is. It doesn't exist. Now now, do not tune out my reply and actually read it because this will explains a lot about the spin-offs and the lack of consistency. As established as early as Super Mario Bros 3, the truth is that none of the Mario games take place. As in, in-universe. There is no Mario story. The entirety of the mainline games are performances/entertainment for the sake of the player. Mario is not a hero. Bowser is not a villain. They're just characters playing video game roles to justify sets of levels. Some devs try to sneak in story elements but overall, there is no continuity or even a world. ...and that means that when spin-offs are created? The devs have to make stuff up. Because there is no actual, true established universe, devs who work on side-games and what not have to make their own, based off the character tropes, gameplay tropes, and whatever hints of story the devs sneaked past Miyamoto into the games. This also means that spin-offs will start to take inspiration or notes from one another. This lack of a true mainline universe is also why the NSMB era push to homogenize the series was so destructive to the story-driven spin-offs. If you want to summarize it all... a comment made previously summed up the mainline situation very nicely and neatly: Mario canon is like asking the canon of Mickey Mouse or the Looney Tunes. Hence why the spin-offs have to make up their own continuities and worlds. As an aside, this is NOT a defense of the mainline's approach. If anything, I find it toxic and destructive. This is just an explanation regarding why things are as they are.
This feels like a very disingenuous argument to me. It ignores the explicit continuity that is very present within the mainline games themselves. -- Super Mario World was a direct sequel to Super Mario Bros 3, even featuring a crashed airship from the game. -- Super Mario 64 featured Yoshi, who calls back to their last adventure (Super Mario World) -- Yoshi's Island was an attempt to give Mario & Luigi an origin story, and flesh out Yoshi's home from Super Mario World. -- Super Mario Sunshine has the obvious Luig's Mansion references. -- Super Mario Galaxy fleshes out the lore of Power Stars from SM64 and what they really are. -- Super Mario Galaxy 2 ends with a green comet showering green stars across the cosmos, which are the main collectable in 3D World -- Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker was made by the same developers as the 3D Mario games, and directly leads into 3D World, showing Captain Toad following a green star falling from the sky into a clear pipe -- Treasure Tracker's Special Episode DLC is all about discovering the Super Crown, placing it before New Super Mario Bros U Deluxe -- Suepr Mario Odyssey directly mentions and builds off of the original Donkey Kong game, expands Mario's world greatly, includes even MORE Power Star lore, follows up on Galaxy's royal octopus family, ground-pound symbol, etc etc The mainline games have always had connections and lore. They weren't a big focus, but they were always there. A lot of the early spin-offs had Miyamoto's direct involvement, as well as key developers that also worked on mainline games. Super Mario Kart was given a brief explanation in its manual to try to set it up as a real karting event that Mario is holding. Super Mario RPG was going to be a very different game, but Miyamoto kept reeling them back in to make the game fit the Mario world better. And then Miyamoto was producer of the original Paper Mario, which fit really nicely in the Mario world, taking a lot from both Mario RPG and Yoshi's Island. Yeah Mario was placed in a bunch of random situations, but they were meant to be part of Mario's world. When Miyamoto likened the Mario cast to a family or group of actors, it was to say that Mario can truly fit into any situation. Games like Dr. Mario come to mind, but even those games have stories and references too! Story is not the point of Mario, but it's still something that is considered and respected by the developers. The NSMB series has poisoned people's minds, making them think that the mainline games just never cared, but that's not true. The NSMB games likely had no connections because they were developed quickly and were trying to capitalize on the classic games. Now Super Mario Bros. Wonder is bringing 2D Mario back to creativity, with loads of new lore about a new location, as well as returning characters like Captain Toad, who is very important to the 3D games.
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Like Sonic said: Everything's Canon
Sonic who hasn’t aged a single bit even though he’s had more than one birthday and his games are stated to take place over the course of multiple months and years.
Whereas the Mario characters actually age.
Everything except Mario and Sonic
I would argue nothing is canon. Almost every game is entirely self-contained.
Except for when it isn't, also I'm white
@@Kosta991 ...... All righty
You can't just say "the mainline Mario games are definitely canon" because we can't even decide whether Super Mario Sweater is canon.
My god, it is obviously canon? Like my dude it’s a sweater are you saying Mario doesn’t have sweaters like my dude sweaters and clothes are in Mario like why are you saying Mario had no clothes do you want Mario to be naked like my dude dude dude what like it’s so obvious like my dude
@@rfurthegamer3412 Are you aware there is actually a game called I am a teacher Super Mario Sweater?
@@CR1MSONACE (that was a joke about people getting mad over canon) (I’ve watched the video)
super mario sweater is just mario making himself a cool sweater. it's canon
fr tho
Mario RPGs feel like feature length movies based on a TV show that's episodic in nature. By that I mean, Mario's mainline games follow the exact same formulas more or less, and don't have much in the form of stakes or tension since they're predictable and not varied much. By contrast, a Mario RPG will introduce an entirely new world, where the stakes are much higher, and you end up with chaotic stuff like "these alien toads are going to destroy the world" or "an previously unknown group of super baddies is planning to summon a demon spirit and take over the planet". But then, just like a movie based on a kid's tv show, once this plot concludes the whole world "resets", all of what transpired is forgotten, and you go back to another random Tuesday afternoon of catching Bowser and rescuing Peach.
And also apparently the Toads either have no schools at all or have absolutely no memory whatsoever for forgetting an ALIEN INVASION that only happened like 20 years ago for them like bruh.
This is probably the closest interpretation I have for Mario's adventures throughout the games - mainline is kinda episodic although has a theme, while RPGs are serialized, however every time a reference from the spin-offs are brought up with each other, at the very least you'd feel that the Mario you're playing in MP6 for example is the same Mario who met his partnership from PM64 IMO.
What is also interesting, in Thousand Year Door, there's a character in the game called Podley.
Who is a bean person from the Beanbean Kingdom and sells Chuckola Cola (a beverage introduced in Superstar Saga).
And TTYD came one year after Superstar Saga, so by that I like to think that both Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi take place in the same world.
Paper Mario does take place in a book in the Mario and Luigi universe so I think it’s like a sub-world of sorts
I think the flexibility of Mario-- as well as the severe lack of contradictions throughout the series, is exactly why Mario canon is so interesting.
To be clear, Mario does not have a solid timeline or overarching story. But he absolutely does have a continuity.
Games are self-contained, but they're littered with references, lore, and expansions upon past ideas. Even games by different developers try to fit Mario properly into the world.
Mario is extremely malleable, yet everything feels coherent and consistent despite that. Confusions like Baby DK and Paper Jam are extremely rare occurrences.
It's amazing how Mario, a series which the majority of the fandom has decided "has no canon" is remarkably more consistent than the Sonic series, which is full of constant contradictions and retcons.
As others in the comments have said, the Paper Mario series are supposed to be adaptations of adventures the real Mario had.
Paper Jam is merely a re-contextualization. Instead of playing through the books that were written about those adventures, we're playing them from the perspective of a parallel world's Mario, who had the same adventures, but is made of Paper.
Super Mario RPG may feel out of place, but it was also one of the first expansions upon Mario's world, and its influence still sticks around to this day. Paper Mario is very in-line with mainline Mario, but it's also a direct continuation of things established in Mario RPG. Everything we have today is due to the things set in place by earlier games, and that includes Mario RPG, which, while it feels out of place, is not too much different from the vibes of the Mario & Luigi series, which are incredibly Mario-y feeling.
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if some Paper Mario characters appeared in the next Mario Kart. It's unlikely, but it's absolutely possible. More now than ever.
Paper Mario just wasn't relevant for a long time. Mario & Luigi was never really ever that relevant.
But now the Thousand-Year Door is a major release that Nintendo is putting a lot of attention on. The Mario spin-offs like to highlight things from various games, but usually only if they're relevant. And now that Luigi's Mansion and Paper Mario are more relevant again, we could see E Gadd and Kammy Koopa in the next Mario Kart.
The thing about Mario as a “canon” is that, because it’s an episodic franchise that is not expected to keep a tight narrative, it’s much easier to write off oddities. Frontiers-era Sonic wants to portray the entire franchise as a continually developing story, so when there are problems and bad logic, it becomes much more of a big deal. Mario is allowed to be fun, but Sonic *has* to be cool.
When you don’t sweat the little details, it becomes easy to appreciate the big picture, and how each game’s writing adds new ideas into the series. For example, Super Mario RPG is anything but an island. It’s the first major game in the franchise to introduce stars not just as a power-up, but as mythological power sources, which is an idea games as recent as Odyssey have expanded on. It’s the first game to feature Peach’s Castle, a reoccurring franchise set-piece. It’s the first time Bowser is shown to have a soft side and a degree of care for his minions - a dimension of the character we don’t even question anymore. Many things we take for granted about the brand identity of Mario can be traced back to SMRPG.
Since it gets a reference in the video, not worrying about little things and thinking through the series on a macro-level is also how Zelda is written, which I think has great continuity despite what people say.
@lukergamerz4455 I've found that a lot of people consider things they just don't like to be "contradictions." Which I think is why people get so confused with Zelda and such.
Zelda does indeed have a pretty solid continuity, despite the timeline messing some stuff up. If you ignore the timeline and just look at the games, it becomes much more coherent.
I really admire Nintendo's way of handling Mario & Zelda and I think it makes theorizing a lot more fun
@@DaNintendude Mario has a *few* real contradictions, but most of them are fairly minor and can just be chalked up to one-time mistakes, like Cranky Kong calling Donkey his "son" in DK64 and being unambiguously his grandfather in every single other appearance.
It's not that contradictions never happen, it's just... most of them don't really have any lore implications. Just isolated cases where a single thing is wrong or mismatched with what we know about the series, and can be disregarded as a simple error.
@@DaNintendude Sooo... your position is... it's not a contradiction... if you ignore it? Zelda has horrible continuity, each game is almost specifically designed _not_ to fit together, at least from Wind Waker going forward. Every game beforehand, yes, even the CD-i games, fit perfectly on one uninterrupted timeline. People find things that contradict each other to be contradictions, where are you even coming from?
@@Wendy_O._Koopa My position is "where are the contradictions?"
The games themselves are disconnected, yes, that's the point. But the connections they _do_ have are pretty well done. Wind Waker and Twilight Princess are wonderfully linked to Ocarina of Time. Skyward Sword gives an origin to the series that naturally expands upon the lore established in other games.
The actual contradictions I've noticed as usually pretty small, aside from the timeline, which, isn't _in_ the games. The games themselves contradict the timeline, with A Link Between Worlds ignoring Hyrule Historia to restate and further cement A Link to the Past's lore. I think really the only big contradiction that I can think of off the top of my head is BOTW saying that Ruto was a sage that sealed Ganon away.
If you try to make your own sense of the canon, without taking the suggested Hyrule Historia timeline, you can make connections much easier. Supposed "contradictions" no longer exist, because you're not tied to a timeline telling you where that game is supposed to be.
The timeline says Four Swords Adventures is several generations after the original Four Swords, but the game clearly intends itself to be a direct sequel with the same Link & Zelda and everything.
The beauty of the Zelda series is that you're supposed to come to your own conclusions and make your own theories. It's up to us to identify contradictions, think about if they're actually contradictions, and theorize on how different parts of the series can fit together.
The whole real world/paper world thing isn't nearly as confusing as you make it sound. At the end of Paper Mario 64, Herringway the author says that he plans to make a book about the adventure Mario just went on and will name it "Paper Mario". We play through the events of this story as they happen in the book world, but they're based on a real event from the real world (supported by various PM64 characters like Goombario, the Star Spirits, and even Whacka making cameos in non-paper games).
The catch is that the world inside the book keeps going after the story it was originally based on concludes, thus leading to new original adventures that don't have real world counterparts because the paths that the two worlds took diverged somewhere along the way. (unlike PM64, TTYD is never referenced by anything other than future PM games, Paper Jam, or Smash Bros., so the real world and book world timelines had likely already split before TTYD began) Furthermore, when the entire universe is reset in Galaxy, that would logically include the world inside the book too, which would explain why Origami King Toad Town looks nothing like PM64 Toad Town.
Then, Paper Jam happens and the characters from within the book become self aware of their paper nature. This is why they start talking about getting creased or torn and stuff in Sticker Star onward, because they didn't KNOW they were made of paper before this point. This crossover is also the most likely culprit for where the "Things" in the modern PM trilogy came from, they're real world objects that ended up in the book world while the connection between the two was open.
Also on a side note, SMRPG is also definitely still canon as well. It's explicitly stated in Birdo's MKWii bio (and before you ask, all Mario Kart games are 100% canon too) that she lives in Nimbus Land, and since MKWii can only happen after Galaxy (due to Rosalina being here), that means that Nimbus Land is still around even now, after the universe got reset. (so hey, that probably means Mallow is also fine and didn't get erased from existence or anything lol)
So yeah, all your favorite RPGs can absolutely fit into the canon with little to no issues. ^_^
The Mario Kart Wii Prima guide is absolutely not canon.
Prima is not Nintendo and there are many Prima guides that are riddled with mistakes and straight up misinformation.
That same guide says Toadette is Toad's sister, and that Peach and Daisy are cousins.
It also states that Birdo's homeland is Subcon, and that it was taken over by Wart.
Birdo literally worked _with_ Wart to take over Subcon. It is not her home. And it would make no sense for her to live in Nimbus Land. She was allied with Valentina, and Valentina was driven out of Nimbus Land during Mario RPG.
We don't know where Birdo lives, but Nimbus Land is very unlikely.
The Prima guide character bios were just some guy trying to make as many references as possible without realizing he was getting a lot of information wrong
Hmm. Exactly what I was thinking.
TTYD and Super are both in Smash Bros, though? Vivian, Shadow Queen (Peach) and Mr. L spirits. I believe the Paper Mario spirit also uses TTYD art.
Please reread my second paragraph more closely. I explicitly mentioned Smash as one of the things that DOES reference future Paper Mario games, specifically BECAUSE it's equally unviable as proof of anything. A TTYD character appearing in Smash means literally nothing because Smash itself isn't canon to the Mario series to begin with.
The Mario in Smash isn't even the same Mario from the Mario series, he's someone's toy/figurine of Mario who came to life through the power of imagination. Sometimes Smash CAN be used to learn canon info, like Toon Link's age, and rarely it IS canon to specific series (Kirby, Kid Icarus, and MAYBE Fire Emblem?) but most of the time, it's should be treated like it's in its own bubble, which things can enter but not leave.
@@Luigifan305 Wait hold on I'm stupid
my personal "headcanon"s are
- all mario games are canon, and all mario's from those games are the same mario. (this rule can kinda go universal gravitation depending on what game it is but i do want to fit every mario game into my own story in my little brain)
- the paper mario games do happen to The Real Mario. all of those adventures are written into the "paper world" book, and therefore paper jam bros. can happen because with this new little tidbit, "paper mario" and mario can co-exist
and despite this i still don't have a coherent timeline in my head. thank you super mario series! awesome video :]
Actually, that makes a lot of sense.
For Peach’s different castle designs and locations, they presumably remodel and make new castles as implied by Super Mario Maker.
The Super Mario Maker games are set in a digital “Course Maker” World, like Mario Paint, so they wouldn’t say much about the “real” Mario World, but the RPGs and Super Mario Run confirm that they remodel the castle between games, yeah.
I always loved how the intro of Mario galaxy has kind of the same layout as SM64 (same waterfall, bridge, tree and lake
I feel like since everything is intentionally unconnected, its totally worth just making up a timeline headcanon for fun. If there's no real canon, people can make one themselves
Here's what people always forget about Paper Mario. Canonically, it is a book since the first entry. HOWEVER, the events and adventure "Paper" Mario went through were based on what Mario actually did. This means PM64 and possibly TTYD are both in-universe stories and adventures Mario really went on (not sure about TTYD's glider and so on). From SPM onwards, it's possible that the book took a few creative liberties and the actual adventure was similar to whay we see in game, but anything after is definitely book-original and not what the actuak Mario did.
The very first thing to happen in Paper Mario is Bowser messing with the storybook, so I think it’ll always taken place in a storybook
Certain locations from Paper Mario, like Toad Town and Dry Dry Desert, also made it into other games.
I remember you asking people on twitter which thumbnail was better. Good times
I personally think the Paper Mario games go through the same events as the mainline series but the said Paper Mario games are exclusive to that dimension or whatever you'd want to call it
*Also, Paper Mario is one of the few pieces of Mario Media to feature Orange Toad's, which constantly has me discussing with people about it's place in the canon* 💀
It's not exclusive to a particular dimension, it takes place in the mainline Mario universe.
I’m surprised E. Gadd was never in Mario Kart.
A few of the platformers actually do have direct continuity. Mario Land 2 happens right after Mario Land 1, and Wario Land happens after Mario Land 2
Shigeru Miyamoto literally announced that he views the cast as an acting troupe, everything is canonically non-canon. He doesn't use the term, but the trope he describes is "negative continuity," like in old cartoons such as Looney Tunes, Mickey Mouse & Friends, or and this is the one he specified: Popeye (which you may recall, Mario is based on, or was originally). Whenever I point this out, bad faith actors scramble outta the woodwork, and say "In this _particular_ translation of the interview, he says "like an acting troupe," not that they "are an acting troupe!" like that's some huge own. What would it mean then? How could that possibly change what he said? Worst case scenario, he isn't sure if that's the right word to use. Plus, with his over-documented hatred of plot and story, why would anyone doubt he favors negative continuity?
Continuity ala Spongebob seems the most plausible in where they can end the episode with a seemingly unreversable element but it then goes to status quo next episode but doesn't discount incorporating elements from past episodes.
@@zjzr08 Yeah, that's called "negative continuity," and it's been around a whole heck of a lot longer than Spongebob.
@@zjzr08Spongebob's a pretty good example. Sometimes they'll do outright sequel episodes like Bubble Buddy returns, but they'll also do things like constantly change whether Squidward likes or even has eaten Krabby Patties before depending on what fits the joke.
But yeah, it's clear that the games are (mostly) all supposed to be their own self-contained universes, with some little easter eggs acknowledging other games. I think the main exception is the Mario & Luigi series, which, in spite of still having some continuity issues, does things like having characters explicitly mention specific events from previous games, or giving characters arcs that take place over the course of multiple games. Even Zelda, which is a more story-based series, contextualizes itself in a way that lets them make each game pretty separate, having them be generations apart.
I feel like paper Mario is a story book telling the events of something mario did
My headcanon with Mario and Zelda is offscreen characters like to move a lot and rebuild thier locations, with the same names
Origami king casually showing how terrifying paper can be
One of the fundamental problems with Mario is that there’s only so many times that Bowser can kidnap the princess or do something else nasty and Not leave the fans, wanting a deeper plot
Why would you want a deeper plot in mario
@@orangeman3505 the RPG games proved it can work, especially in terms of fleshing out the world and having depth to its writing. While there's nothing wrong with a simpler plot, there's also plenty of interesting stuff to be done with a deeper plot as well. Super Paper Mario is one of the better examples imo.
@@orangeman3505just something sort of similar to the RPG games would definitely work even in a mainline game
@@orangeman3505 because the formula is stale
@@orangeman3505variety
My head cannon is that all paper Mario games up to sticker star is just another mario adventure but in paper due to being told by someone.
So Mario & Luigi are cannon, paper jam is when the alternative world that's fully paper (sticker Star, color splash, and origami king take place in that world) crossed over to the main world.
Not sure about super Mario RPG though.
For Paper Jam
It has never been implied that Paper Mario is from another Universe or they never stated to be a different Mario
Paper Mario In Japan is called Mario's story And it's game that retells Marios past Adventures Paper jam is just that Mario from the storybooks brought to life
It's odd that people keep using that "Mario's Story shtick" when they dropped that from TTYD onwards with "Paper Mario RPG".
@@almondjoy4938 honestly yeah people say sticker star is when the paper themes started but ttyd was the one that really started it
@BowserEditz
I think had Sticker Star not started the Action Adventure trend and reduction of characters designs, people wouldn't give a shit about the Paper stuff.
The name “Mario Story” was really just playing off “Yoshi’s Story” anyway. Doesn’t go much deeper than the whole “story-book” aesthetic.
It had never been implied, _before_ Paper Jam. Paper Jam is notorious for the retcon of turning it into a separate universe, contained in a book, like Winnie-the-Pooh in Kingdom Hearts. It's an interesting headcanon, but did you even play the game? There's nothing that "brings him to life," the book just opens and the portal between the dimensions opens. You're just trying to fix a retcon with _another_ retcon.
I really think Nintendo's approach of "characters need to already be relevant to casual audiences before we can consider them for Mario Kart" is so backwards and leads to a depressing cycle. Mario RPGs are currently sadly known to a niche audience, and I think people discovering them via seeing a character from them in Mario Kart could help change that. But Nintendo would rather it happen the other way around and their marketing alone clearly isn't working. I think any Mario game that has a character representing it in Mario Kart is instantly going to be bigger and more well known just from that alone. At least playable.
Especially the ones that aren't a thing someone might mistake for an original design. Goomboss for example, I hadn't played Paper Mario when I first played SM64DS and MKDS, and my first thought was he was a new character created by SM64DS, especially since Chief Chilly also existed in a similar vein, a king/royal version of a common enemy. But someone like Fawful or Vivian isn't based on a common Mario species so nobody would think they're just a random OC inserted into a Mario Kart roster, they'd know they came from SOME previous Mario game and would be more inclined to look into that. Also even for Goomboss if he had been playable more people may have traced him back to Paper Mario, but the renaming from Goomba King definitely also didn't help with that. I don't think there's anything fundamentally different about RPG characters design wise either, the ones I mentioned are no stranger than Nabbit visually. The only ones I could maybe see their design being a small issue is those from Super Paper Mario, but years of fanart has proven that those characters can easily work in more organic, less geometric designs too, and that was just SPM's art direction.
One easy explanation for the changes in recurring locales between games is that the Mushroom Kingdom keeps having to rebuild. Bowser invades a lot, after all.
I always thought it would be cool if the next huge new 3D Mario game combines all of the canon from all of the spin-offs and characters series into one game and just has all of the major stuff on screen either in the story or gameplay.
I do have a theory on how the Mario timeline works! SMRPG obviously takes place in mainline. The Paper Mario series in 2000-2007 are both mainline & book because in Superstar Saga the nostalgia room shows the blocks from Mario's past, specifically one of the blocks from the first Paper Mario. Which means Superstar Saga takes place after Paper Mario, Partners in Time after PMTTYD, & Bowser inside Story after SPM. After the events of SPM the book universe becomes it's own separate reality, with the Paper Mario series 2012-2020 taking place in the book now. This explains the whole Paper physics & stuff. After SPM the timeline for the mainline Mario & Luigi series is a straight line, until Paper Jam when the book universe gets merged with the mainline universe. But after everything the main & book timeline separate again going through a straight line of there own timeline. Oh & incase if your wondering, yes the remakes are indeed canon in the same year. And with that the timeline is complete.
Thoughts on the headcanon of X-Naut Fortress being located on the *Darkest* Side of the Moon Kingdom?
paper mario is canon nuff said
7:47 My interpretation is that everything up to sticker star has been adventures Mario HAS been on with everything after that being separate PAPER Mario adventures. The book had gained stories of its own.
I would love to see someone create a definitive timeline of every single Mario game, based on what fits the most.
I just like to believe there are 2 seperate Mario’s
The Mainline Mario (M&L, SMRPG & All the platformers, spinoffs, sports games etc)
And Paper Mario (Whose world takes place within the storybook world within the main universe)
So basically I believe that Paper Mario takes place in a pocket dimension
Yeah I’ve Always seen them all as canon.
You forgot about the old paper mario referencess in origami king
Wow bro this video blew tf up, I’ve been watching your content for months now and all the hard work is paying off 🤝
Where the heck is the Guitar Hero: Aerosmith review Connor? i have been waiting for 7 years!!!
The world of Mario and that of paper Mario is very strange since if it is said that paper Mario is based on the adventure that Mario had in the real world, it means that Mario's companions must have existed how goombella goombario kooper koops etc in the real world but it's sad since almost Mario has no history or a chronology he accommodated Even though it's good and I've seen that Nintendo is interested in what the Paper Mario community thinks about whether they like Mario RPGs or whether they loved the characters they made in the two Paper Marios. Possibly if we have these characters in a spin off of Mario or Mario Kart or even in the main Mario Bros saga
I don't mind if the different Mario series don't share any continuity, but I'd at least like each series to have continuity.
The first three Paper Mario games made it very obvious that they all take place in the same world, since Mario's house always looked the same and there were plenty of references to past events and characters.
But then all that was thrown out with Sticker Star and the subsequent games didn't pick it back up. Nintendo may not care, but to players like me, worldbuilding and continuity make us fall in love with these games on a whole other level. But it seems like some developers at Nintendo don't want Mario's world to be that deep and just want it to be mindless fun.
My headcanon is that the first 3 Paper Mario games take place in the regular Mario continuity and that it's only the ones from Sticker Star onward that take place in the book world from Paper Jam.
All 6 take place in the book world, but the book World is parallel to the real one, therefore all 6 games also happened to the real Mario - we just see them from a paper perspective.
damn, only 300 views? RUclips blessed your video and recommended it to us essay addicts.
On paper, establishing an official canon isn't really all that difficult. It's just Nintendo needs to stop being stingy towards the newer developers regarding story and characters. This stinginess explains why Super Mario Odyssey doesn't reintroduce a lot of characters despite introducing an actual world map.
Everything is Canon. From the various locations like Dry Dry Desert, Mushroom City, Toad Town, Moo Moo Meadows, Dolphin Shoals, etc. Just because you can’t see them doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Bob-ombs blowing up for fun and Bob-ombs blowing up and dying can’t really explain this one. But I don’t really believe enemies or characters from the Mario series die. It’s kind of like when you watch those Looney Tunes cartoons and characters get blown up or fall apart. Nothing is ever life threatening.
6:46 That Paper Mario is Non-Canon
Bobbery drank Chuckola Cola on Keelhaul Key, meaning the mario universe is canon to the paper mario universe
Mario = mario
I think that the Paper Mario games are connected, all of the Mario and Luigi games are connected, then you have everything else
If Sonic has some fans have the attitude of "don't even try" in trying to piece the canon, I can say it's more so for Mario. But even then, I always felt the rule was "as long as it doesn't contradict, it's fair game". You could say the locations of Peach's castle can be seen as contradictions but frankly it could be seen as recontextualization that needs to be done for the needs of the game. The very likely reality is that Peach's castle is located near to a Toad village, which Paper Mario gives an example.
Even if I have gripes with the Illumination Mario movie, I think it has the closest visualization of the reality of the Mario universe (although tacking in the Kart elements were weird) albeit not using Power Stars or Star Spirits does make the world limited still. But we saw there Yoshi's Island, desert areas, Bowser's Dark Land, and an icy area. Needs to be fleshed out sure but they are there in distinct areas. Even the New York lore I believe can be true, although wasn't explained well.
8:35 from what I’ve heard apparently paper Mario is a retelling of adventures Mario has been on but in the form of paper
Also Mario and Luigi brothership hype
The first 3 Paper Mario are retelling of cannon events
Sticker Star to Origami King are the Paper Jam book universe
That how i see it
Surprised you didn’t mention Geno in the first Mario and Luigi game, Merlon in Paper Mario being a Shaman from Mario RPG, or Podley in TTYD being a beanish from Mario and Luigi.
Podley is a Beanish person, huh didn’t put two and two together lol, well you learn something new everyday
Well, if there are problems of building Mario's canon, here's my idea for a fan-game. A game featuring none of the Mario universe's cast, instead drawing from original characters who debuted in Super Mario RPG and a few of its successors. Including the fan-favorite Geno as the protagonist.
I feel liks the first three paper marios games where just actal mario doing stuff being told via story. Super paper mario could be another reset which created an actal paper mario that shows up in the mario and luigi series. Thus the real mario never experinced sticker star heh.
I do have a personal head cannon as to why paper Mario and regular Mario are different characters in paper jam.
You know how after the events of Galaxy, the universe reset itself? Well, it also created copies of the old world, including one made of paper.
I think the first 3 paper Mario games did happen in the real world and were later written into a book, which, after the events of galaxy, somehow became a “portal” to the paper universe. After the events of paper jam, we start to see some realistic supplies in the modern paper Mario games. Hence, sticker star color splash and origami king are the only paper Mario games to happen exclusively in the paper universe.
I have a statement where everything is technically canon-even Mario and Sonic at the Olympics/Super Smash Bros. It's very controversial to say the least...
Wasn’t it recently confirmed that Mario is the same in every game entry? Like, even including the cameos in other series as well?
So, wouldn’t it automatically mean that ALL of the games are canon?
Yes
As long as Nintendo doesn't actively go against canon.
I view Mario as kind of in the same category as a meme character such as Chad or Wojak. There is a canonical character, but there are many iterations with different stories. Or in programming terms, it's kind of like Mario is a class and the Mario in each game is an instance of that class.
It's easier to understand when broken down like this: Mainline Mario and Paper Mario are akin to Modern Sonic and his storybook games (Secret Rings/Black Knight). Both exist properly in the same canon, but are different worlds. In this case, the world of Paper Mario existing within a storybook of the Mainline Mario.
Tho paper mario is just a storybook mario retelling his past adventures
Imo the moral of the story:
Mario lore doesn't really matter much and you should just headcannon what you want.
I still don’t consider the Mario RPGs spinoffs….
But Nintendo does, so what we think doesn't matter... 🤷
I want Paper Mario to canonically be a different character because that means we can possibly get him in Smash. There’s three links and two Samuses plus a clone, but only two Mario’s and Doc is not as unique as Paper would be.
To me they’ve got completely different personalities, with Paper Mario being quiet but non- verbally very expressive, whereas Super Mario is Bing bing wahoo lets a go mama mia- I like both but I see it more as a parallel universe situation.
I groan at the over saturation of paper puns but I thought TTYD had struck the perfect balance with curses. I also don’t mind an ever so slight white outline on the sprites but that’s as far as I’d go.
Paper Mario is literally regular Mario. They're both quiet. It's just that mainline Mario games usually gave him more one liners to use. All the expressions Mario does in the Paper Mario games, Mario would also use in the mainline Mario games, but it's a lot more noticeable in the Paper Mario games due to how more cartoonish everything looks.
@@retrofan4963 🤫 please let me have my delusion 😂
9:30 bro did NOT say poochy, that def started with a C
Also, the difference is that the developers of games like Kirby and Metroid actually pay close attention to the lore. It's a nice touch but not needed for every series.
Mario & Luigi feels more canon than Paper Mario
What? Paper Mario is canon, paper jam is based off the past events in Mario, paper jam isn’t stated to be a parrael universe, the pm references in other games and the hooniversity, all rpg games are canon.
Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario are equally canon to the main Mario universe. Heck, both Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario even connects with each other through their stories and I'm not talking about Paper Jam. I'm talking stuff like the species from the Bean Kingdom like Podley is in TTYD and Chuckacola is a drink that's connected in both Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario.
1:03 Paper Mario and Mario are one and The Same the Paper Mario in Paper Jam was not the same one from Sticker Star, Colour Splash or Origami King
Yeah and the nostalgia blocks.
Exactly
Just make the rpgs canon AUs. Problem solved!
9:30 🤨
Problem with the canon? Oh, I know this one, I know this one!
They don't care. For all intents and purposes each piece of Mario media may as well be a new continuity. I can't even confidently say Galaxy 2 even happened after Galaxy since they have nothing to do with each other story-wise.
The anime Mario movie from the 90s, the 1993 live action movie, and the 2023 Illumination movie all have radically different "origin stories" for Mario/Luigi.
Only the RPG series have real continuity within themselves, Star Road appearing at some point in all three Mario RPG series. Even then, the mainline Mario games don't reference events from these games at all. Mario Party 5 references the Star Spirits from Paper Mario and, like, Super Smash Bros. features some content from the RPGs but otherwise they go completely unacknowledged.
Paper Mario really stopped having continuity after Super, woth tenuous references to previous partners but no story connection. Things appear in each game of the modern trilogy but none of the story elements indicate that Mario has interacted with them before, for all we know, when the Fan Thing appears in Origami King, it's the first time he's dealt with it because Sticker Star didn't happen in that game's continuity. Modern PM retired Kammy without any explanation to her whereabouts.
Oh yeah, Sticker Star references Goombella and Kolorado but that's seriously it.
Don't even get me started on the implications of Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam.
All games are canonical, think of them as various timelines/multiverses. :)
Mario canon is like asking the canon of Mickey Mouse or the Looney Tunes.
8:20
a lot can be explained with the idea that Peach & Bowser have multiple castles;
1) It explains all the geographical inconsistencies
2) We already know that Bowser has multiple castles
3) It explains why Bowser wants to kidnap/marry Peach (It gives him acces to every castle that she owns)
4) It also explains the incosistencies of Mario's house (he also has multiple houses so that he's always close to Peach, also explains why it's specifically Mario' house)
5) It explains why Peach's castle is often barely defended (her troops are defending other castles and that's why she is in another castle)
6) It explains why we never see Peach's parents (read point 3 & 5)
I genuinely don't know why the Paper Mario series is such a hot topic of debate. It seems incredibly clear that it's a separate continuity that doesn't happen in mainline.
The only game that has any chance of happening in the 3D World is the first one, which isn't even known as a Paper Mario game in Japan, it's called Mario's Story (which is how I'll be referring to it from now on), and has WAY less paper elements than every other game in the series, yes, TTYD included.
Starting with TTYD, the series was all called Paper Mario even in Japan. Mario's Story is the only one that has been referenced by other games in any meaningful way, and even then, it is INCREDIBLY shaky whether that means the exact events of Mario's Story happened. For starters, most of them are in spinoff titles which have debatable canonicity to begin with, such as Mario Kart and Mario Party, and secondly, they don't even line up with their depictions in Mario's Story.
Dry Dry Desert/Dry Dry Ruins in Mario Kart? Mario Kart is debatably canon, the Dry Dry Desert/Dry Dry Ruins depicted is different from the one in Mario's Story, and Dry Dry Desert/Dry Dry Ruins is an incredibly generic name. In Japan, there are like five different areas all named Dry Dry Desert. This is a very weak argument.
Star Spirits in Mario Party? Again, Mario Party is debatably canon, and the existence of characters in both worlds doesn't directly confirm the events of Mario's Story. They can reuse designs. And I find it wild that this one is brought up so much, because they have *entirely different roles* than in Mario's Story. In Mario's Story, they're known as the Star Spirits and guard Star Haven and the Star Rod. In Mario Party 5, they're known as the Star Guards, and guard the Dream Depot, which houses everybody's dreams. Similar roles, sure, but objectively different. It is almost a direct contradiction that would mean they HAVE to be different worlds. The only saving grace this has is that MAYBE they could guard both places, but that's very shaky, especially when you're already down the rabbit hole of Mario Party having shaky canonicity. You have to assume so much with no evidence to make this work.
And I mean, just LOOK at any of the Paper Mario games post Mario's Story. You have to jump through so many hoops to make them work in the 3D World.
How does Flurrie blowing away things work? She blows away things in TTYD because they're paper. You'd have to assume that the 3D Flurrie has the power to blow away whole solid objects.
How do the curses in TTYD work? They cause Mario to fold up into all sorts of paper shapes. You'd have to assume that these curses allow 3D Mario to turn into paper at will no evidence to suggest this happened.
Does Flip in Super Paper Mario ALSO turn him into paper? And speaking of Super Paper Mario, the 3D mechanic. How does THAT work?
Basically everything in Sticker Star and later.
It makes way more sense to just say these games are a different world with different events, especially since anything after Mario's Story isn't referenced in a meaningful way, and Paper Jam very blatantly confirms that they're separate.
"Actually, Paper Jam confirms they're parallel." I see this argument so much but it very much doesn't do that. Paper Peach slips through bars that regular Peach can't. Mario has a moment of doubt over not being able to turn into a Paper Airplane like Paper Mario can, and two Green Toads discuss turning into a Paper Airplane and flying over the gap on Mount Brrr. Here's the dialogue.
"Just turn into a Paper Airplane and fly over to check it out! What are you afraid of?" "Easy for you to say!" "Well, how about getting some friends together and making yourselves into a kite?" "I think our kite would be a bit more like an anchor..."
Very blatantly shows they are separate worlds with separate rules that would likely change these characters' lives in drastic ways.
People point out the Bowsers having the same conversation with their Kameks a lot, but not that right before that, Bowser says "I'll rule" and Paper Bowser says "You mean WE'LL rule", showing that Paper Bowser is more loyal than Bowser.
And then there's the whole thing of Paper Luigi not joining the party. Speaking of Luigi, Starlow says this about him after Paper Mario looks him over. "You confused him with the Luigi from your world, didn't you? Actually, this Luigi is totally different." Blatantly says they're totally different. When it comes to this argument, it genuinely feels like people are just cherry picking evidence to support their narrative. Paper Jam is very clear about what it intends. The only problem is that it has a very simplistic plot that's more interested in saying "Haha look two Peaches" then really exploring the implications of these two separate worlds, but any time that they do that, they make it clear that they are separate and different.
...okay I got a bit of out control, apologizes for the massive rant. This specific debate just REALLY irritates me, and I don't understand why it exists at all. If anything, I would think people would WANT them to be separate. Having two different worlds with unique rules and unique events is way more interesting and has way more potential for cool stories than two worlds that are the same aside from looks. I just don't get it.
Since TTYD and SPM take place after Paper Mario 64, even acknowledging the events of that game, they automatically take place in the same universe as Paper Mario 64, thus taking place in the mainline Mario universe. Mario's curse abilities in TTYD is no different from Mario's Cappy abilities in terms of "strangeness", so I can see that happen in the mainline Mario universe. And the world in SPM literally stated Mario transported in a different dimension in flipside, so while to us it's 2D to 3D, in the point of view of the story, it's 3D to 4D. Also, Paper Jam is just doing crossover sake, it doesn't count and it's irrelevant to the series themselves. Mario doesn't use FLUDD in Mario Galaxy and Mario Odyssey, so does that mean Mario Sunshine doesn't exist? Mario continuity breaks its own even by just going in the mainline games, so how do we expect they'll treat the spinoffs the same. They all are just canon, it's simple as that to be honest.
@@retrofan4963 "Since TTYD and SPM take place after Paper Mario 64, even acknowledging the events of that game, they automatically take place in the same universe as Paper Mario 64, thus taking place in the mainline Mario universe."
That 1. Assumes Paper Mario 64 is canon which is not confirmed. 2. Doesn't actually mean anything. The events of Paper Mario 64 can happen in both universes, while the events of TTYD and beyond can only happen in one universe. There's no contradiction there. The only way that argument works is in reverse, if TTYD was canon then Paper Mario 64 would have to be canon. But TTYD isn't even referenced in any meaningful way, so that isn't a thing.
"Mario's curse abilities in TTYD is no different from Mario's Cappy abilities in terms of "strangeness", so I can see that happen in the mainline Mario universe. "
I agree. The strangeness is absolutely in line with mainline Mario. That was never the argument. The curse abilities are all gimmicks playing off of the fact that the characters are made of paper. Mario is not made of paper in the mainline Mario universe. He can't flip sideways to slip through cracks, or roll up into a tube, or fold up into an airplane. You would have to assume that, in the mainline universe, these curses have different rules, and deliberately turn the person who is cursed into paper, which is purely conjecture.
"Also, Paper Jam is just doing crossover sake, it doesn't count and it's irrelevant to the series themselves."
That is blatantly cherry picking. And it IS relevant to the series themselves. Bowser's character development from Dream Team is maintained (He refers to Luigi by his name and not Green Stache), Neo Bowser Castle from Dream Team returns, The Paper Koopalings in Color Splash are foreshadowed by Paper Jam, and Paper Jam's white outline artstyle for the paper characters went on to become a mainstay in the Paper Mario series. The only way this argument works is if the entire Mario & Luigi series is non-canon, which is genuinely a fair argument since it is not referenced much either, but if Mario & Luigi is non-canon, Paper Mario is ABSOLUTELY non-canon, as there is WAY more working against it than there is for Mario & Luigi.
"Mario continuity breaks its own even by just going in the mainline games,"
It doesn't though. When you're just focusing on mainline games, (most commonly accepted as the 2D and 3D platformers like Super Mario Bros, Super Mario 64, etc) everything is very clean and lines up, with the exception of minor stuff like the layout of Peach's Castle. Problems only come in when we start factoring spinoffs, and even then, most of them fit in just fine or even have strong evidence supporting them, like Luigi's Mansion.
The issue here is that the Paper Mario series (Post Paper Mario 64 at the least) presents a version of the Mario world with drastically different rules that are very blatantly showcased and told to us all the time. The characters are made out of paper. Many events in the games rely on the fact that the characters and the world are made out of paper. Mainline Mario, and his world, are not made out of paper. So how could these events happen? Paper Jam comes in and gives us a clean explanation. The Paper Mario series all takes place within a book/books, the ones that we have always seen in the intros of basically every Paper Mario game. That contradiction is resolved with a neat explanation that has cool lore implications, and yet everyone refuses to accept it for some reason.
@@accomplishedshipyard The Paper Mario series itself made it clear that the events of the stories takes place in past mainline Mario adventures told in a storybook. The Mario & Luigi series itself is also canon and even share that both series takes place in the same world that contradicts Paper Jam. The curses abilities doesn't play with the fact they're made of paper, contrary believe it or not. If anything, it confirms that the characters are not made of paper since Mario has to be cursed in order to do these abilities since he can't do it naturally being made of skin and flesh. Same thing with Flurrie since she can only blow away certain objects made of paper because the rest of the environments are not made of paper within the story. Maybe the reason why mainline Mario can't do these curse abilities anymore is because he lost these abilities over time, heck Super Paper Mario confirms this since he doesn't do these abilities anymore and he needs an actual pixie to do the Paper mode again. Sure, Paper Jam continues certain aspects of Dream Team, but the whole premise is just made for crossover sake instead of doing what makes sense.
Mario canon is just Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr., and then what ever the hell you want it to be.
there is no canon, mario does whatever he wants, whenever he wants
Oooh, i hope you don't incure the wrath of the Mario Lore/Marioverse enthusiasts...
Super Mario games just don't even have an official timeline or canon, simple as that.
My head canon is that every mainline game is a show, like SMB3. Mario, Bowser, Peaxh and everyone are just actors in a show made for entertainment.
Honestly for me, that just kind of ruins the magic of the Mario Universe
Fuck it, every mario game is canon
Lol Mario Canon? There isn't any. What a dumb idea.
There’s no problem because there’s no lore.
Knowledge of mainline canon, or rather just plain admitting its state, helps a lot in understanding Mario. It's not complexity that is the issue so much as accepting the harsh reality of what Mario canon actually is.
It doesn't exist. Now now, do not tune out my reply and actually read it because this will explains a lot about the spin-offs and the lack of consistency. As established as early as Super Mario Bros 3, the truth is that none of the Mario games take place. As in, in-universe. There is no Mario story. The entirety of the mainline games are performances/entertainment for the sake of the player. Mario is not a hero. Bowser is not a villain. They're just characters playing video game roles to justify sets of levels. Some devs try to sneak in story elements but overall, there is no continuity or even a world.
...and that means that when spin-offs are created? The devs have to make stuff up. Because there is no actual, true established universe, devs who work on side-games and what not have to make their own, based off the character tropes, gameplay tropes, and whatever hints of story the devs sneaked past Miyamoto into the games. This also means that spin-offs will start to take inspiration or notes from one another.
This lack of a true mainline universe is also why the NSMB era push to homogenize the series was so destructive to the story-driven spin-offs.
If you want to summarize it all... a comment made previously summed up the mainline situation very nicely and neatly: Mario canon is like asking the canon of Mickey Mouse or the Looney Tunes. Hence why the spin-offs have to make up their own continuities and worlds.
As an aside, this is NOT a defense of the mainline's approach. If anything, I find it toxic and destructive. This is just an explanation regarding why things are as they are.
This feels like a very disingenuous argument to me.
It ignores the explicit continuity that is very present within the mainline games themselves.
-- Super Mario World was a direct sequel to Super Mario Bros 3, even featuring a crashed airship from the game.
-- Super Mario 64 featured Yoshi, who calls back to their last adventure (Super Mario World)
-- Yoshi's Island was an attempt to give Mario & Luigi an origin story, and flesh out Yoshi's home from Super Mario World.
-- Super Mario Sunshine has the obvious Luig's Mansion references.
-- Super Mario Galaxy fleshes out the lore of Power Stars from SM64 and what they really are.
-- Super Mario Galaxy 2 ends with a green comet showering green stars across the cosmos, which are the main collectable in 3D World
-- Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker was made by the same developers as the 3D Mario games, and directly leads into 3D World, showing Captain Toad following a green star falling from the sky into a clear pipe
-- Treasure Tracker's Special Episode DLC is all about discovering the Super Crown, placing it before New Super Mario Bros U Deluxe
-- Suepr Mario Odyssey directly mentions and builds off of the original Donkey Kong game, expands Mario's world greatly, includes even MORE Power Star lore, follows up on Galaxy's royal octopus family, ground-pound symbol, etc etc
The mainline games have always had connections and lore. They weren't a big focus, but they were always there.
A lot of the early spin-offs had Miyamoto's direct involvement, as well as key developers that also worked on mainline games. Super Mario Kart was given a brief explanation in its manual to try to set it up as a real karting event that Mario is holding.
Super Mario RPG was going to be a very different game, but Miyamoto kept reeling them back in to make the game fit the Mario world better. And then Miyamoto was producer of the original Paper Mario, which fit really nicely in the Mario world, taking a lot from both Mario RPG and Yoshi's Island.
Yeah Mario was placed in a bunch of random situations, but they were meant to be part of Mario's world. When Miyamoto likened the Mario cast to a family or group of actors, it was to say that Mario can truly fit into any situation. Games like Dr. Mario come to mind, but even those games have stories and references too! Story is not the point of Mario, but it's still something that is considered and respected by the developers.
The NSMB series has poisoned people's minds, making them think that the mainline games just never cared, but that's not true. The NSMB games likely had no connections because they were developed quickly and were trying to capitalize on the classic games. Now Super Mario Bros. Wonder is bringing 2D Mario back to creativity, with loads of new lore about a new location, as well as returning characters like Captain Toad, who is very important to the 3D games.
They are all stage plays.