Hey Sam, I've got three non-running American locomotives (And some american rolling stock). If you want them for Salvage or Scrap, I can see about getting them to you. I don't need any of it, and all of it's damaged in some way, so no one's bought it. If you want it, it's yours.
@@nwrailfan2465 Pretty sure it's Tyco. Whether it is or isn't though, it's boiler, chassis, and tender chassis are all die-cast, and it's mechanism is nothing but a motor w/ a worm gear that meshes with a gear on the second driving axle.
Running in over a few hours I've found most models improve significantly. Some get a little worse though but I put that down to brass and steel material migrating as the surfaces of contacts and inner wheel faces bed in. A post-running in clean of the contacts and rubbing surfaces helps a lot and then this isn't really necessary until after a few good hours when you'd normally service them anyway. Individual samples do vary though. I bought two Bachmann Cl25s and the first one (BR Green) ran superbly out of the box. The second (BR Blue) wasn't a good runner but improved substantially after a few hours of running in. After this, If you swapped the bodies over you wouldn't be able to tell which was which. I think manufacturing tolerances are quite loose and this probably explains the varied results until running in, which brings them more or less in line with each other as various components bed in.
Your "comparison" videos are always enjoyable and informative. The BR green examples looks great! With you all the way with your findings & conclusions.
Hi Sam, Taking nothing away from your usual insightful and informative review, it seems a (tiny) missed opportunity to run a 64xx with two autocoaches without a prototypical arrangement; i.e. with the loco in the centre and with the coaches having their driving cabs furthest from the loco. As these locos were used for push-pull passenger trains, and for shunting, testing the models' performance in push-mode might have been interesting - particularly if they weren't very good at it! Otherwise a thoroughly entertaining video - I'm a fan, even though space limitations mean I model in n-gauge not OO! Best regards, Greg
Hi Sam, I know this video is a year old, I have just purchased a Bachmann 35-026a pannier from Bala lake for £130 plus £4 p&p, this model has superior detail, next 18 decoder and flicker firebox, cordless motor and sprung buffers,can’t wait for this to arrive
@@russellguyver7746 Well I'm not Sam but I think that it's a big investment....I think that they should just do a couple of models and see how that goes. Also make them available through retailers.
@@timbervalleyproductions The big advantage for Hornby is it open's up a potentially much bigger market in the long term as TT120 is well established in the US, Europe and Japan. OO on the other hand is mainly a UK thing. Personally I think TT120 is a nice compromise between OO and N for people like me who have limited space and a limited budget. It's still by no means cheap, but the models they're bringing out are significantly less than their OO versions. e.g. £124 for an A4 instead of about £200. In order to make it work they need a reasonable selection of models, track, accessories, etc. For instance at present there are some fairly common accessories not yet available that I'd like when building a layout such as tunnel mouths, bridges and level crossings. At present I'll either have to wait for those or get a 3D printer and make some stuff myself. One disadvantage for me, but good for Hornby, is there's no established secondhand market yet. In the short term that means everyone will have to buy new Hornby stuff if you choose TT. I suspect they're aiming it at those people who would love a OO layout but don't have the room, or are downsizing after the kids have left but find N gauge too small, or are put off by OO prices. A TT120 layout will be a bit more suitable for child's bedroom or small spare room, without having to resort to the attic or garage. I understand why it's internet only as it will reduce Hornby's costs. However I agree for us consumers it's also important to support the model shops as they provide many accessories that Hornby don't, which improves the hobby. As far as the initial release is concerned I think Hornby have made good choices of classic locos and rolling stock that they know are always popular. There's enough stuff, including buildings for a reasonable start up layout and it sounds like they'll be regular releases of new items. Peco are on board too. Obviously for anyone with an established OO layout it has limited appeal, unless they're thinking of down sizing.
I find it neat that you got sequentially numbered locomotives! If you ever review two of the same loco at the same time again, you should do so with diesels (especially American ones, as some have different details) since they tend to have more variety in liveries than steam locos
Hi Sam, I have got the Hornby Pannier that comes as a part of the Westerm Master set, and that runs worse than the older R041 Pannier Tank I got for £35 on eBay! I have also got the Bachmann Pannier that came as part of the Railway Children set. The old Hornby one runs the best! I think it is that with the old Hornby model, the pickups press tightly against the wheels, but with the other models, the pickups don;t make such good contact. I don't know why such loose fitting pickups are the norm nowadays. The only explanation I can think of is that loose pickups allow a weaker motor to cope with the friction. The older Hornby Pannier has a larger armature.
An important point to note is that Hattons are not an official Bachmann retailer and are not supplied by Bachamnn in any shape or form. This can work in Hattons favour as they can sometimes get Bachmann products from 3rd parties and sell at a much lower price BUT it also means that Hattons will not be stocking any new Bachmann releases until they have made their way out onto the 3rd party scene and also that the Bachmann warranty is void as regards anything bought from Hattons as that warranty only applies if you buy from an official Bachmann authorised retailer.
Yes that is true, I assume the one from Hattons was new old stock they purchased from another retailer. Hattons guarantee everything they sell though, for something like 6 months etc
Very good Sam and the double review was a real bonus to show totally unjustified pricing. Perhaps a double review of 2 Hornby locos to prove the same thing. Is it just that Hornby and Bachmann have such a big market share that they don't care? keep em coming Sam.
One interesting difference I've noticed between British OO locomotives and American HO locomotives is that for the OO locomotives, painted cab detail is seen as something to be expected, but working lights are a premium feature. Across the pond in the U.S. however, the opposite is true. Painted cab detail is a premium feature, but working headlights are are something to be expected on all but the most budget-minded locos, and smoke generators on steam locos are pretty common as well.
I enjoy all of your reviews but the one comment I would make is that you should try fitting a DCC decoder. I say this because my experience is that 99% of 'DCC ready' locos are anything but - particularly tank engines. Apart from Hornby, they never specify the decoder to use (there are a lot to choose from). Your two favourites, the Heljan 1361/1366 are particularly difficult. The Hornby Ruston is a real challenge but it can be done. The hornby Peckett B2 can only be done by deleting the plug and socket and hardwiring the decoder.
So I bought one of these 6400s myself. I bought a Hornby DCC chip as I use the hornby Select controller which from what Ive read doesnt play nice with other brands DCC decoders. Despite the hornby chip being bigger and more cumbersome than the bachmann chip recommended for this model, it fit absolutely perfectly no problems, and I dropped the model straight onto the track and it has run with zero issues ever since. Id consider that to be about as DCC ready as you could get.
Hi Sam A great review as always. Although when running the locos I noticed that the BR lined green 64xx was paired with trucks. In real life the lined green livery was given to passenger engines and unlined green and black where given to the engines that would haul freight and shunt. But creative liberties are creative liberties. A great review nonetheless. Have a great day Oliver
There are three main reasons why these are so expensive. 1: they are good runners, (from my experience) 2: everyone uses the chasis for kit bashes, and 3: DUCK.
I sadly dropped my 6421 model. I'm pleased to say they're extremely tough as old boots, only a crooked buffer and running plate which was fixed in 5 minutes with a pair of pliers levering them back into place. Sadly picked mine up for the outrageous price of £126.
Interesting indeed, specially as a double review. As novices in the hobby we have noticed differences in motor speeds and behaviour from exactly similar product numbers so many times already. It seems that many tiny dissimilar factors adding up come into play. E.g., in one motor the brushes might possibly have a more firm contact compared to another or their compounds may differ just a bit, variances in internal windings, tiny differences at friction points, etc., etc. Different production series may also add up dissimilarities. With upmarket motors from Bühler, Faulhaber, etc, those chances will be significantly reduced. However, possibly many model train makers don’t really care about consistent performances on DC or AC since they all aim at DCC (sadly) where adjustments can be made to a very fine scale per loco... Although the RRP new of this 64xx is deemed premium in the British market, it's not really... Certainly not enough to justify premium motors from Bühler, Faulhaber, etc. Those will run consistent finely controlled on DC or AC and are rated at 10000 to 50000 running hours... But..., they are not at a price of just a few quid or even a few tenners...
I always believed that the important thing was how well they ran on DC. I was told by a few veterans that if a loco performs bad on DC then it would be worse most times on DCC
@@EsotericArctos That's very interesting to read. We've been told that DCC will usually iron out irregularities, but we've not tested it yet ourselves since we are building an analogue AC layout (Märklin). M uses their own (real) premium motors of course and never have failed on us (they are basically DC motors connected to a AC-to-DC circuit). However, they do show speed differences as well. What would happen with some cheap DC motor which doesn't run all that well on DC and then regulate it on DCC... That would be an interesting live test indeed.
Where are you getting the Rapido 16xx for 20 pounds cheaper than the 64xx? I've only ever seen them for 149, maybe on sale for 130 once or twice a year.
I'm rather confused Sam. Because I have bachmann 8751 which was bought I'm 2009. That has spring buffers (and runs a whole lot smoother) yet these newer ones dont
With the cogging of the 3 pole motors, and overall performance difference between the models, it would be interesting to drop in decoders to see if DCC could improve results? Another thought is DC users would benefit more from a flywheel than all that space for a decoder that they aren’t using
Hi Sam, just got one of these, the older version. I've noticed an odd annoyance and wonder if you can confirm and if a simple fix is available? The side to side play on the middle wheels is not even, one way it can fully compress the pickup but the other way it does not move from a central point. This means the loco is tight around curves in one direction. I'm assuming the gear is the cause and I'm wondering if I could slide it on the axle to fix this? Cheers Mike.
Yeah I've noticed a lot of new models from various brands having the pickups incorrectly adjusted. Oxford rail & Bachmann seem to be heavy hitters for me though Hornby isn't perfect either.
Model railway companies keep telling us how expensive new toolings are, but old tooling models are priced the same as new tooling models. So either old tooling models are overpriced or new toolings are cheap to make
Sam found loco he didn't own before so immediately got 2 different models of it to compare and contrast .) The dedication is very impressive. It is sad that the supposed old wisdom of newer being better is being proven wrong time and time again across both physical and even virtual products. i am hoping that some rising competition will light up the market eventualy but i am not gonna hold my breath.
Hey Sam - good work on the reviews. I got my new Heljan Peak (class 45) in BR green, and I am really impressed by it. Super detail - especially all the really fine cast or etched parts like the buffer beam fittings. It has awesome lighting, and even a magic wand for turning the cab lights on and off. It has 12 wheel drive, a 5 pole motor, and I think you would really like it.
Hi Sam, Just as usual no Quality Control and Ready To repair to make it run as it should. Indeed a rip of as is Bachmann's standard. I have two Bachmann on my roster, both problematic. The 2MT only runs decent in tender first and the Ten Wheeler is just a disaster stalling on every point so I retired it. No more Bachmann ! Today I bought a PIKO No: 97942 Starter set with bedding, controller, power supply, Freight train steam locomotive G7 / BR55 of the SNCB, epoch III with 5 freight cars for 135€ or equal price of your Panier tank. A very basic but well build loco with superb running qualities on DC and effective RTR out of the box. It just shows ! I have long decided not to be taken as 'hostage' by this kind of manufactures who don't care about the RTR quality and greedy pricing. Thanks for sharing & success.
After a bit of research for a 74xx conversion (basically a 64xx without auto equipment) there was opportunity for variation eg. the cab bunker join is square Vs round, different hand rails etc. minor cab difference,these variations would mean they could produce a 74xx quiet easily and maybe justify the price. I'll say it was pretty happy with my original 64xx of 2013 at a price of £74, although a lot has changed economically since then!
Hi, Sam, Yes nice engine's, I do like the 64xx got a few myself, but, why should you have to do amusement before you get a good run??? , You pay good money , you get old stock at new prices, All the best Brian 😃
Sam, I am thoroughly enjoying your review! Unfortunately, I don’t have access to purchase any of that style of runner due to me location way down in the Deep South of Mississippi (where ‘they’ look suspiciously on foreign locos! However, keep up the excellent and thorough reviews!! Cheers !!😎🚂
Hi Sam, rather than just a ripoff mightn’t this be a good example of what’s happening with inflation of all the costs? Being as they’re identical, and ones sat around for 4-5 years, so reduced to get it moving, whereas the other is brand new and has all the increases priced in with no deep discount to get it moving?
I don't think so - inflation is around 20% from the past 5 years, yet the price of the new 64xx is way beyond that. The other factor is comparing it with what else is available for the same money... most of it is much more sophisticated and better quality! Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Hi Sam - thank you for making this review. I've been waiting for it for a while as ove seen the bachmann pannier tank used at displays and shows but i knew the tooling was older but not much else. I think £70 range seems fair and the performance is about what i expected but I like the looks and hope to pick a cheap one up sometime, thanks to your review. Keep it up.
Great review Sam, I love the 64XX Panniers, I have an idea for a model review. Bachmann have recently released a new run of the L&YR Class 5, and they have it in the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway livery, I think you might like it, the pre grouping livery is spectacular
Compare this Bachmann 64xx to the Dapol Manor class you recently tested which cost an extra 20 pounds r.r.p. It makes you wonder which planet the folks at Bachmann are living on.
Sam i have 2 off the older versions. One of these had the same problem with the pickups, which i had to adjust. The spare 3 lamp irons fit into the left side of the running plate. You will find 3 small holes. After running in these are good slow runners. Looking at your review the new ones are well over priced.
Hey Sam, Just found Ace trains, dam expensive, not asking you to buy and review but are they worth the money? Or are they for the serious collectors only?
Ok I am watching this later then the others, but I would say that the LNER tank loco is the odd one out, 1 because it is LNER, and also because it is not a Pannier Tank.....
hi sam. this review proves that these 2 models go to show that some models of today and that of a decade ago remained the same. the only improvement made is more pounds in bachmanns pocket!!!!!!
@@mattlander9119 if they were made in europe or the uk i would grant you that excuse..but china is the land of cheap labour and freight went down by 50%!!!
Hi Sam, im glad to see a review of this model as I actually bought one of these just a few months ago, its the first non hornby model Ive bought so was an interesting purchase. Regarding price, I live in New Zealand and they sell practically Zero Bachmann models here, so I had to import it from the UK. I paid $222 NZD including shipping which works out to ~£115, so middle of both of yours. That said though, if this was in NZ and being sold retail the pricing would probably start around $300NZD (£155) as standard so I am super happy with the price I paid. (a Hornby Terrier costs ~$270/£140) I was also super happy with the detail. I dont own many locos I admit, but all my hornby locos have plastic bodies and the die cast body on this felt brilliant, and I was generally quite happy with the level of detail and the build quality myself. I did not have the issues with the pickups as you did. I didnt even notice the missing/bad details on mine you pointed out until you pointed them out in the video haha. As for running, Its true it isnt the best crawler even on DCC which I run it on, but I was extremely surprised at the sheer pulling power it had. It completely eclipses my other two Hornby tank locos in incredible fashion on the weight it can pull. It also runs nice and smooth. Anyway, all in all I was quite happy with my purchase of the loco. Maybe its got a few downsides for the more serious collectors but personally, I love it.
Great review sam! i remember receiving an older tool of this for Christmas when i was 7, and i distinctly remember breaking the break rigging, it has never stopped on me and has always worked perfectly, i always look back and remember it. shame i broke the rigging at the price a new one is nowadays, although ill get a new one one day.
I notice you said no sprung buffers on either, i have 2 of these, one from the western wanderer set and one in br black and both do, they also have a sprung axle. Looks like bachmann have been de-specing these models.
@@PebProductions46 should be noted they are covering a lot of variations of the E1's so there is more tooling = more costs for that project than the 64xx for example.
@@mattlander9119 Absolutely, great point. I have faith that Rapido will deliver a suitable model for that price. They have so far with the J70 and the 16xx.
@@mattlander9119 that's what I was thinking, costs can change during the production stage. I've ordered the two Isle Of Wight Versions but I'd also like the limited edition one being sold by the IOWSR.
hi Sam I have a question about the Peckett what is the motor I can't find a clear answer on what it is because I am trying to do a custom please respond when can thank you
Hi sam I hope you are well I have 2 57xx which looks the same believe it just the cabs are different to 64xx? Could both do with retool in my opinion or maybe Bachmann should put them in efe range Great honest review Thank you for sharing your models with us Keep safe ARP
The 74xx/64xx are much smaller overall than 57xx panniers, including wheels. Different locos built for different jobs. Also see differences in cabs for the 57xx and 8750 derivative.
@Sam’sTrains at 8:45 you say the 64xx class were closely related to the 1935 400 class. The 54xx were introduced in 1930 and the 74xx in 1936 which 400 class did you mean?
Good review Sam, from the looks of it it’s a fantastic small locomotive from bachmann, the pannier is one I would like to get hold of but the version I want is one in the London transport livery because that livery is something different and the livery overall looks fantastic on the panniers
Found the odd one out! And a very nice j70 it is as well! Edit-Hopefully Hattons will have the gwr green in stock next month so I can get one, lovely review as always Sam!
Really enjoyed this one, got one of these several years ago when I got back into the hobby and it was my first Bachmann UK model. In my top 3 favorites in my collection I think. I really just love the aesthetic of the 64xx. I got mine used for about 120usd (which was I think 75ish pounds at the time) with a decoder pre-fitted and even on dcc the performance seems to be about the same as these two.
Love everything you do, Sam and often binge watch the old videos when I am feeling a bit down. The slow crawl after the run in, though. What happened there? One was a solo engine and the other had carriages! I thought this was a 'go compare' video?! lol. Still enjoyed it though, thanks for showing up the new one.
Me and my dad bought the lined green weathered version for £104 brand new, we knew there would be problems so went halves on it, and ours performs exactly the same as yours! Perfectly fine model perfect for Auto trains, but not worth £140!
Ive got a 25 year old Bachmann Panier tank loco that is better running than these. As I said in a previous video, I WON'T be buying any more Bachmann or Hornby any more.
I am wondering about ways to improve the performance of this Bachmann 64xx tank engine. You said that the motor is a 3 pole. Would a 5 pole improve the torque and speed ? Especially in the slow speed performance and perhaps eliminate the "cogginess" ? Are there more expensive motors that would give more power and longevity ? I don't like the excessive side to side play on the drive axles. Could some equal width spacers added after optimum track gauge is determined to solve this long term ? It would be lovely to engage a machinist to make a new chassis out of metal. Are there heaps of appliances missing from the model ? Lastly, How much would the price increase be from 2016 given inflation ? How close to 139 quid would 75 quid be to match up to the 139 quid level ? I was curious as to whether or not Bachmann offered a DCC with sound version. It doesn't seem so. Whilst there on the Bachmann site I saw the tab for the "Collector's Club". It's only 35 quid for a year and they have apparently some proprietary loco offerings. I am quite keen on the Class 08 'Molly' GBRf HN rail shunter. Great livery. Looks a lot like Canada's Ontario Northland paint scheme. I could fancy owning that !
Thanks to Duck they're an iconic tank engine, plus were a classic of 70s Hornby sets. Obviousuly things have moved on a lot since then, so I wanted an updated DCC Ready version and these fit the bill (no pun intended), however like you I thought £120 was a bit steep for what they were. A couple of months ago I got a mint GWR green livery version for £75 on Ebay and it's a decent little loco. I think I prefer the BR green, but I haven't seen one for a sensible price yet.
Apart from the price I’m a huge fan of these engines. They look simply gorgeous with auto coaches. Can’t wait to see what you do next Sam. Kind reguards, Dan
I was considering buying one of these for my birthday. I left it becuase the bonnet is left green. it really bugs me on those gwr models for some reason
Interesting. I don't like the lined green on this loco. I don't think I will be buying any of these. The locos were used on the Gloucester to Kemble push-pulls because the 0-4-2 tanks couldn't get much past Brimscombe without running out of steam with 2 coaches. So these Panniers were used.
29:40 the odd one out is the LNER J50
You got the right
@@NWRJ_WStudios 00:09:39 - He’s one of J50’s friends.
Very well spotted! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Yes!! I thought I had it right. We’ll spotted!
Yes, I did notice immediately when I got to that part of the video.
Hey Sam, I've got three non-running American locomotives (And some american rolling stock). If you want them for Salvage or Scrap, I can see about getting them to you. I don't need any of it, and all of it's damaged in some way, so no one's bought it. If you want it, it's yours.
What locomotives?
@@nwrailfan2465 2 unknown diesel-electric road-switchers, and some kind of mikado.
@@sambrown6426 What brand is the mike?
@@nwrailfan2465 Pretty sure it's Tyco. Whether it is or isn't though, it's boiler, chassis, and tender chassis are all die-cast, and it's mechanism is nothing but a motor w/ a worm gear that meshes with a gear on the second driving axle.
@@sambrown6426maybe bowser
Running in over a few hours I've found most models improve significantly. Some get a little worse though but I put that down to brass and steel material migrating as the surfaces of contacts and inner wheel faces bed in. A post-running in clean of the contacts and rubbing surfaces helps a lot and then this isn't really necessary until after a few good hours when you'd normally service them anyway. Individual samples do vary though. I bought two Bachmann Cl25s and the first one (BR Green) ran superbly out of the box. The second (BR Blue) wasn't a good runner but improved substantially after a few hours of running in. After this, If you swapped the bodies over you wouldn't be able to tell which was which. I think manufacturing tolerances are quite loose and this probably explains the varied results until running in, which brings them more or less in line with each other as various components bed in.
Your "comparison" videos are always enjoyable and informative. The BR green examples looks great!
With you all the way with your findings & conclusions.
Hi Sam,
Taking nothing away from your usual insightful and informative review, it seems a (tiny) missed opportunity to run a 64xx with two autocoaches without a prototypical arrangement; i.e. with the loco in the centre and with the coaches having their driving cabs furthest from the loco. As these locos were used for push-pull passenger trains, and for shunting, testing the models' performance in push-mode might have been interesting - particularly if they weren't very good at it!
Otherwise a thoroughly entertaining video - I'm a fan, even though space limitations mean I model in n-gauge not OO!
Best regards,
Greg
Hi Sam, I know this video is a year old, I have just purchased a Bachmann 35-026a pannier from Bala lake for £130 plus £4 p&p, this model has superior detail, next 18 decoder and flicker firebox, cordless motor and sprung buffers,can’t wait for this to arrive
Properly this is the rare review you ever done, with two locomotives. Great video as always.
Hey Sam...off topic but will you be doing any reviews of the new TT stuff from Hornby when that comes out?
Yes I sure will do! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains whats your initial thoughts on this 'new' Hornby range?
@@russellguyver7746 Well I'm not Sam but I think that it's a big investment....I think that they should just do a couple of models and see how that goes. Also make them available through retailers.
@@timbervalleyproductions The big advantage for Hornby is it open's up a potentially much bigger market in the long term as TT120 is well established in the US, Europe and Japan. OO on the other hand is mainly a UK thing.
Personally I think TT120 is a nice compromise between OO and N for people like me who have limited space and a limited budget. It's still by no means cheap, but the models they're bringing out are significantly less than their OO versions. e.g. £124 for an A4 instead of about £200.
In order to make it work they need a reasonable selection of models, track, accessories, etc. For instance at present there are some fairly common accessories not yet available that I'd like when building a layout such as tunnel mouths, bridges and level crossings. At present I'll either have to wait for those or get a 3D printer and make some stuff myself.
One disadvantage for me, but good for Hornby, is there's no established secondhand market yet. In the short term that means everyone will have to buy new Hornby stuff if you choose TT.
I suspect they're aiming it at those people who would love a OO layout but don't have the room, or are downsizing after the kids have left but find N gauge too small, or are put off by OO prices. A TT120 layout will be a bit more suitable for child's bedroom or small spare room, without having to resort to the attic or garage.
I understand why it's internet only as it will reduce Hornby's costs. However I agree for us consumers it's also important to support the model shops as they provide many accessories that Hornby don't, which improves the hobby.
As far as the initial release is concerned I think Hornby have made good choices of classic locos and rolling stock that they know are always popular. There's enough stuff, including buildings for a reasonable start up layout and it sounds like they'll be regular releases of new items. Peco are on board too.
Obviously for anyone with an established OO layout it has limited appeal, unless they're thinking of down sizing.
TT isn't well established in Japan, what makes you think so? They only make models in N, HO and Z.
I find it neat that you got sequentially numbered locomotives!
If you ever review two of the same loco at the same time again, you should do so with diesels (especially American ones, as some have different details) since they tend to have more variety in liveries than steam locos
Thank You. Thank You. The double review was fun. The double review was fun. Great Job. Great Job.
Hi Sam, I have got the Hornby Pannier that comes as a part of the Westerm Master set, and that runs worse than the older R041 Pannier Tank I got for £35 on eBay! I have also got the Bachmann Pannier that came as part of the Railway Children set. The old Hornby one runs the best! I think it is that with the old Hornby model, the pickups press tightly against the wheels, but with the other models, the pickups don;t make such good contact. I don't know why such loose fitting pickups are the norm nowadays. The only explanation I can think of is that loose pickups allow a weaker motor to cope with the friction. The older Hornby Pannier has a larger armature.
An important point to note is that Hattons are not an official Bachmann retailer and are not supplied by Bachamnn in any shape or form. This can work in Hattons favour as they can sometimes get Bachmann products from 3rd parties and sell at a much lower price BUT it also means that Hattons will not be stocking any new Bachmann releases until they have made their way out onto the 3rd party scene and also that the Bachmann warranty is void as regards anything bought from Hattons as that warranty only applies if you buy from an official Bachmann authorised retailer.
Yes that is true, I assume the one from Hattons was new old stock they purchased from another retailer. Hattons guarantee everything they sell though, for something like 6 months etc
Very good Sam and the double review was a real bonus to show totally unjustified pricing. Perhaps a double review of 2 Hornby locos to prove the same thing. Is it just that Hornby and Bachmann have such a big market share that they don't care?
keep em coming Sam.
One interesting difference I've noticed between British OO locomotives and American HO locomotives is that for the OO locomotives, painted cab detail is seen as something to be expected, but working lights are a premium feature. Across the pond in the U.S. however, the opposite is true. Painted cab detail is a premium feature, but working headlights are are something to be expected on all but the most budget-minded locos, and smoke generators on steam locos are pretty common as well.
I enjoy all of your reviews but the one comment I would make is that you should try fitting a DCC decoder. I say this because my experience is that 99% of 'DCC ready' locos are anything but - particularly tank engines. Apart from Hornby, they never specify the decoder to use (there are a lot to choose from). Your two favourites, the Heljan 1361/1366 are particularly difficult. The Hornby Ruston is a real challenge but it can be done. The hornby Peckett B2 can only be done by deleting the plug and socket and hardwiring the decoder.
So I bought one of these 6400s myself. I bought a Hornby DCC chip as I use the hornby Select controller which from what Ive read doesnt play nice with other brands DCC decoders. Despite the hornby chip being bigger and more cumbersome than the bachmann chip recommended for this model, it fit absolutely perfectly no problems, and I dropped the model straight onto the track and it has run with zero issues ever since.
Id consider that to be about as DCC ready as you could get.
Hi Sam
A great review as always. Although when running the locos I noticed that the BR lined green 64xx was paired with trucks.
In real life the lined green livery was given to passenger engines and unlined green and black where given to the engines that would haul freight and shunt. But creative liberties are creative liberties. A great review nonetheless.
Have a great day
Oliver
There are three main reasons why these are so expensive. 1: they are good runners, (from my experience) 2: everyone uses the chasis for kit bashes, and 3: DUCK.
I sadly dropped my 6421 model. I'm pleased to say they're extremely tough as old boots, only a crooked buffer and running plate which was fixed in 5 minutes with a pair of pliers levering them back into place. Sadly picked mine up for the outrageous price of £126.
Interesting indeed, specially as a double review. As novices in the hobby we have noticed differences in motor speeds and behaviour from exactly similar product numbers so many times already. It seems that many tiny dissimilar factors adding up come into play. E.g., in one motor the brushes might possibly have a more firm contact compared to another or their compounds may differ just a bit, variances in internal windings, tiny differences at friction points, etc., etc. Different production series may also add up dissimilarities. With upmarket motors from Bühler, Faulhaber, etc, those chances will be significantly reduced. However, possibly many model train makers don’t really care about consistent performances on DC or AC since they all aim at DCC (sadly) where adjustments can be made to a very fine scale per loco... Although the RRP new of this 64xx is deemed premium in the British market, it's not really... Certainly not enough to justify premium motors from Bühler, Faulhaber, etc. Those will run consistent finely controlled on DC or AC and are rated at 10000 to 50000 running hours... But..., they are not at a price of just a few quid or even a few tenners...
I always believed that the important thing was how well they ran on DC. I was told by a few veterans that if a loco performs bad on DC then it would be worse most times on DCC
@@EsotericArctos That's very interesting to read. We've been told that DCC will usually iron out irregularities, but we've not tested it yet ourselves since we are building an analogue AC layout (Märklin). M uses their own (real) premium motors of course and never have failed on us (they are basically DC motors connected to a AC-to-DC circuit). However, they do show speed differences as well. What would happen with some cheap DC motor which doesn't run all that well on DC and then regulate it on DCC... That would be an interesting live test indeed.
the 16xx from rapido is a really good loco as well and that's around around £20 cheaper then these
Where are you getting the Rapido 16xx for 20 pounds cheaper than the 64xx? I've only ever seen them for 149, maybe on sale for 130 once or twice a year.
I'm rather confused Sam. Because I have bachmann 8751 which was bought I'm 2009. That has spring buffers (and runs a whole lot smoother) yet these newer ones dont
With the cogging of the 3 pole motors, and overall performance difference between the models, it would be interesting to drop in decoders to see if DCC could improve results? Another thought is DC users would benefit more from a flywheel than all that space for a decoder that they aren’t using
Hi Sam, just got one of these, the older version. I've noticed an odd annoyance and wonder if you can confirm and if a simple fix is available? The side to side play on the middle wheels is not even, one way it can fully compress the pickup but the other way it does not move from a central point. This means the loco is tight around curves in one direction. I'm assuming the gear is the cause and I'm wondering if I could slide it on the axle to fix this? Cheers Mike.
Maybe try a Rapido 16xx panier tank? (Kernow)
Yeah I've noticed a lot of new models from various brands having the pickups incorrectly adjusted. Oxford rail & Bachmann seem to be heavy hitters for me though Hornby isn't perfect either.
Very cool video Sam :)
Cheers from California ! I would Love to get into the hobby , but frankly there is NO way I could afford to so I’ll watch Sam’s Trains instead .😊
Model railway companies keep telling us how expensive new toolings are, but old tooling models are priced the same as new tooling models. So either old tooling models are overpriced or new toolings are cheap to make
Sam found loco he didn't own before so immediately got 2 different models of it to compare and contrast .)
The dedication is very impressive.
It is sad that the supposed old wisdom of newer being better is being proven wrong time and time again across both physical and even virtual products. i am hoping that some rising competition will light up the market eventualy but i am not gonna hold my breath.
Hey Sam - good work on the reviews. I got my new Heljan Peak (class 45) in BR green, and I am really impressed by it. Super detail - especially all the really fine cast or etched parts like the buffer beam fittings. It has awesome lighting, and even a magic wand for turning the cab lights on and off. It has 12 wheel drive, a 5 pole motor, and I think you would really like it.
Hi Sam, Just as usual no Quality Control and Ready To repair to make it run as it should. Indeed a rip of as is Bachmann's standard. I have two Bachmann on my roster, both problematic. The 2MT only runs decent in tender first and the Ten Wheeler is just a disaster stalling on every point so I retired it. No more Bachmann ! Today I bought a PIKO No: 97942 Starter set with bedding, controller, power supply, Freight train steam locomotive G7 / BR55 of the SNCB, epoch III with 5 freight cars for 135€ or equal price of your Panier tank. A very basic but well build loco with superb running qualities on DC and effective RTR out of the box. It just shows ! I have long decided not to be taken as 'hostage' by this kind of manufactures who don't care about the RTR quality and greedy pricing. Thanks for sharing & success.
Which one had no quality control?! The black one might not have run as well as its been sitting on the shelf for longer.
@@mattlander9119 Sitting on a self has nothing to do with pickups not touching the wheel flanges. Proper QC would show so.
The Autocoaches should be run with the pannier in the middle. There was a LNER J class tank
I've always favoured the smaller pannier over the regular one. Don't know why I just like them a bit more.
Hey Sam are hornby still making the 4-4-0 like the compound & County?
Cheers Jasper & Willow
I don't think they are sadly - hopefully they bring it back!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
After a bit of research for a 74xx conversion (basically a 64xx without auto equipment) there was opportunity for variation eg. the cab bunker join is square Vs round, different hand rails etc. minor cab difference,these variations would mean they could produce a 74xx quiet easily and maybe justify the price. I'll say it was pretty happy with my original 64xx of 2013 at a price of £74, although a lot has changed economically since then!
Hi, Sam, Yes nice engine's, I do like the 64xx got a few myself, but, why should you have to do amusement before you get a good run??? , You pay good money , you get old stock at new prices, All the best Brian 😃
Sam, I am thoroughly enjoying your review! Unfortunately, I don’t have access to purchase any of that style of runner due to me location way down in the Deep South of Mississippi (where ‘they’ look suspiciously on foreign locos!
However, keep up the excellent and thorough reviews!!
Cheers !!😎🚂
Hi Sam, rather than just a ripoff mightn’t this be a good example of what’s happening with inflation of all the costs? Being as they’re identical, and ones sat around for 4-5 years, so reduced to get it moving, whereas the other is brand new and has all the increases priced in with no deep discount to get it moving?
I don't think so - inflation is around 20% from the past 5 years, yet the price of the new 64xx is way beyond that. The other factor is comparing it with what else is available for the same money... most of it is much more sophisticated and better quality!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Hi Sam - thank you for making this review. I've been waiting for it for a while as ove seen the bachmann pannier tank used at displays and shows but i knew the tooling was older but not much else. I think £70 range seems fair and the performance is about what i expected but I like the looks and hope to pick a cheap one up sometime, thanks to your review. Keep it up.
Got fine 2 Weeks ago love it so much
Great review Sam, I love the 64XX Panniers, I have an idea for a model review. Bachmann have recently released a new run of the L&YR Class 5, and they have it in the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway livery, I think you might like it, the pre grouping livery is spectacular
Thank you so much - ahh that sounds great, I'd love to try another one of those!! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Oooo, this months model railway news is gonna be interesting!
Compare this Bachmann 64xx to the Dapol Manor class you recently tested which cost an extra 20 pounds r.r.p. It makes you wonder which planet the folks at Bachmann are living on.
I can see it now, the image of a painter and a author arguing over this locomotive
Sam i have 2 off the older versions. One of these had the same problem with the pickups, which i had to adjust. The spare 3 lamp irons fit into the left side of the running plate. You will find 3 small holes. After running in these are good slow runners. Looking at your review the new ones are well over priced.
Saw the LNER imposter hehe. Have you got the Stephenson Vlark private owner post BR panniers that Bachmann did? See you at Warley I hope.
Hey Sam, Just found Ace trains, dam expensive, not asking you to buy and review but are they worth the money? Or are they for the serious collectors only?
Ok I am watching this later then the others, but I would say that the LNER tank loco is the odd one out, 1 because it is LNER, and also because it is not a Pannier Tank.....
hi sam. this review proves that these 2 models go to show that some models of today and that of a decade ago remained the same. the only improvement made is more pounds in bachmanns pocket!!!!!!
Because production costs have risen a lot in the last 6 years! The 94xx probably used techniques that are cheaper therefore the price is lower
@@mattlander9119 if they were made in europe or the uk i would grant you that excuse..but china is the land of cheap labour and freight went down by 50%!!!
Hi Sam, im glad to see a review of this model as I actually bought one of these just a few months ago, its the first non hornby model Ive bought so was an interesting purchase.
Regarding price, I live in New Zealand and they sell practically Zero Bachmann models here, so I had to import it from the UK. I paid $222 NZD including shipping which works out to ~£115, so middle of both of yours. That said though, if this was in NZ and being sold retail the pricing would probably start around $300NZD (£155) as standard so I am super happy with the price I paid. (a Hornby Terrier costs ~$270/£140)
I was also super happy with the detail. I dont own many locos I admit, but all my hornby locos have plastic bodies and the die cast body on this felt brilliant, and I was generally quite happy with the level of detail and the build quality myself. I did not have the issues with the pickups as you did. I didnt even notice the missing/bad details on mine you pointed out until you pointed them out in the video haha.
As for running, Its true it isnt the best crawler even on DCC which I run it on, but I was extremely surprised at the sheer pulling power it had. It completely eclipses my other two Hornby tank locos in incredible fashion on the weight it can pull. It also runs nice and smooth.
Anyway, all in all I was quite happy with my purchase of the loco. Maybe its got a few downsides for the more serious collectors but personally, I love it.
Great review sam! i remember receiving an older tool of this for Christmas when i was 7, and i distinctly remember breaking the break rigging, it has never stopped on me and has always worked perfectly, i always look back and remember it. shame i broke the rigging at the price a new one is nowadays, although ill get a new one one day.
Is that resistor in line with the motor? I am confused why they would need that if they are using a proper 12V motor
I notice you said no sprung buffers on either, i have 2 of these, one from the western wanderer set and one in br black and both do, they also have a sprung axle. Looks like bachmann have been de-specing these models.
The Western Wanderer tank is a 57xx, not a 64xx.
I have this loco, but the version 6414 in GWR green
"Ye heard - quack, quack ye go - sounds like ye'd egg just laid. Now weeesht and let an engine sleep."
hahaha love it!! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Going by these prices, I'm rather worried what Rapido will charge for their E1s; I've preordered two.
Rapido already released the prices for their E1s - £164.95 for DCC ready on their site, 140.20 at the retailers
@@PebProductions46 should be noted they are covering a lot of variations of the E1's so there is more tooling = more costs for that project than the 64xx for example.
@@mattlander9119 Absolutely, great point. I have faith that Rapido will deliver a suitable model for that price. They have so far with the J70 and the 16xx.
@@mattlander9119 that's what I was thinking, costs can change during the production stage. I've ordered the two Isle Of Wight Versions but I'd also like the limited edition one being sold by the IOWSR.
I like this style of review,Sam ,a newer version and older one side by side.
Do you know how to move gears on their axles without removing them from the engine entirely.
Thought my internet was playing up on the first test run. Had full on buffer face!
...if you pardon the pun
hi Sam I have a question about the Peckett what is the motor I can't find a clear answer on what it is because I am trying to do a custom please respond when can thank you
I picked up a preowned one. It's nice enough, but full RRP, I'm not so sure.
be nice to compare it with thomas bachmann or is it just a bodyshell change for thomas loco
Hi sam
I hope you are well
I have 2 57xx which looks the same believe it just the cabs are different to 64xx?
Could both do with retool in my opinion or maybe Bachmann should put them in efe range
Great honest review
Thank you for sharing your models with us
Keep safe ARP
Thanks Adi, hope you are too! Ahh I'm not sure... I haven't compared the two, will have to do that!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Hi Adi, I believe the 64xx is smaller than the 57xx as well.
The 74xx/64xx are much smaller overall than 57xx panniers, including wheels. Different locos built for different jobs.
Also see differences in cabs for the 57xx and 8750 derivative.
@Sam’sTrains at 8:45 you say the 64xx class were closely related to the 1935 400 class.
The 54xx were introduced in 1930 and the 74xx in 1936 which 400 class did you mean?
Hey Sam are you going to review the new tool ivatt tank by bachmann?
Did you see the auto coach working the Dart Valley Railway on Steam Train Britain, Sam.
I have 2 similar Locos, but made by Hornby, 1 is a lot new than the other!!! 🙂🚂🚂🚂
Hmm... I guess that operating the loco from one of the cars is like being a back-seat driver.
Good review Sam, from the looks of it it’s a fantastic small locomotive from bachmann, the pannier is one I would like to get hold of but the version I want is one in the London transport livery because that livery is something different and the livery overall looks fantastic on the panniers
Thanks a lot David - they sure are nice looking models! London Transport livery looks amazing :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Where do you buy your models?
You're out here criticizing Bachmann for re-releasing a model for a higher price but what about Hornby?
Awesome video Sam's trains
Thanks Brian! :D
@@SamsTrains you're welcome my dear friend
Found the odd one out! And a very nice j70 it is as well!
Edit-Hopefully Hattons will have the gwr green in stock next month so I can get one, lovely review as always Sam!
Hattons don't stock new Bachmann products, so you will need to seek an alternative retailer for the latest release 64xx.
@@blackjockofmangertonpele I only really want the older gwr one from 2013
Thanks for a great review! This week I’ve purchased Bachmann Toby and the Bachmann rolling stock and coaches for the Thomas and Friends range
Really enjoyed this one, got one of these several years ago when I got back into the hobby and it was my first Bachmann UK model. In my top 3 favorites in my collection I think. I really just love the aesthetic of the 64xx. I got mine used for about 120usd (which was I think 75ish pounds at the time) with a decoder pre-fitted and even on dcc the performance seems to be about the same as these two.
Such a shame is not been improved as was hoping to get one but not at that price. The coke wagon at the end 😂
Watching Sam when a new Sam video comes out feels comforting for some odd reason
Edit: lner j50
haha that's good to hear, and well spotted! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Hey look, it’s Duck’s cousins; Stuck and Muck
Wow a 2for1 special couldn’t decide which one to get lol
haha I know... hard to pick... so just went for both! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Love everything you do, Sam and often binge watch the old videos when I am feeling a bit down. The slow crawl after the run in, though. What happened there? One was a solo engine and the other had carriages! I thought this was a 'go compare' video?! lol. Still enjoyed it though, thanks for showing up the new one.
Sam can you do a new hornby class 43
Hola buenas tardes excelente modelo el problema es el motor de 3 polo tienen que ser de 5 polo muy bueno el video abrazo grande😃👍👍👍👍👍
Me and my dad bought the lined green weathered version for £104 brand new, we knew there would be problems so went halves on it, and ours performs exactly the same as yours! Perfectly fine model perfect for Auto trains, but not worth £140!
Oh Duck will be happy to see his Brothers again
haha he sure will!
It was the LNER tank
Cool steam engine and those engines are similar to duck the great western engine from Thomas and friends.
Thanks a lot AJ - yes very similar to Duck's class!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains no problem sam
Hey Sam just finished putting my pumpkin wagon together. It's awesome 👍 thanks
motors could have differant winding on the motors
the LNER...Jinty? at 29:40 is the odd one out
I love pannier tanks
Very tasty - always liked these tanks in GWR green …
Yeah definitely - the green is my favourite too! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Ive got a 25 year old Bachmann Panier tank loco that is better running than these. As I said in a previous video, I WON'T be buying any more Bachmann or Hornby any more.
I am wondering about ways to improve the performance of this Bachmann 64xx tank engine. You said that the motor is a 3 pole. Would a 5 pole improve the torque and speed ? Especially in the slow speed performance and perhaps eliminate the "cogginess" ?
Are there more expensive motors that would give more power and longevity ? I don't like the excessive side to side play on the drive axles. Could some equal width spacers added after optimum track gauge is determined to solve this long term ? It would be lovely to engage a machinist to make a new chassis out of metal. Are there heaps of appliances missing from the model ? Lastly, How much would the price increase be from 2016 given inflation ? How close to 139 quid would 75 quid be to match up to the 139 quid level ? I was curious as to whether or not Bachmann offered a DCC with sound version. It doesn't seem so. Whilst there on the Bachmann site I saw the tab for the "Collector's Club". It's only 35 quid for a year and they have apparently some proprietary loco offerings. I am quite keen on the Class 08 'Molly' GBRf HN rail shunter. Great livery. Looks a lot like Canada's Ontario Northland paint scheme. I could fancy owning that !
Thanks to Duck they're an iconic tank engine, plus were a classic of 70s Hornby sets.
Obviousuly things have moved on a lot since then, so I wanted an updated DCC Ready version and these fit the bill (no pun intended), however like you I thought £120 was a bit steep for what they were.
A couple of months ago I got a mint GWR green livery version for £75 on Ebay and it's a decent little loco. I think I prefer the BR green, but I haven't seen one for a sensible price yet.
Thanks as always Sam your advice and opinions are much appreciated
Apart from the price I’m a huge fan of these engines. They look simply gorgeous with auto coaches. Can’t wait to see what you do next Sam.
Kind reguards, Dan
I was considering buying one of these for my birthday. I left it becuase the bonnet is left green. it really bugs me on those gwr models for some reason
It's realistic though. Not every gwr loco had their bnnnet polished every day when in service.
@@mattlander9119 so they were left green or black?
@@AbeTheBabe6233 yes they weren't always polished
At the 33:59 through 34:08 mark I see a J50 tank engine.
Interesting. I don't like the lined green on this loco. I don't think I will be buying any of these. The locos were used on the Gloucester to Kemble push-pulls because the 0-4-2 tanks couldn't get much past Brimscombe without running out of steam with 2 coaches. So these Panniers were used.
If you just want a pannier tank, the Bachmann 57xx may be nicer.
28:58 the red tank engine