I've seen some, uh, interesting takes here and thought I should clarify some things: 1. Australian built trains would not be immune from teething issues especially as our local manufacturing (in NSW at least) is out of practice making passenger stock. 2. VLocities are not really ideal replacement trains, perhaps they could work on the Canberra run but not much more. 3. I'm not advocating for immediate replacement of these trains. Rather, we should use this as a learning point for future contracts which seem likely to occur as these trains don't have sleeping berths. Finally keeping the XPTs in service, even with an overhaul, is an awful idea. They were revolutionary in regional rail when introduced, but they have to go. Their molded fibreglass cab ends look sleek, but as we learnt at Wallan, are not even slightly protective of occupants. HSTs in the UK could be banned by unions over these issues. The issue is not whether they need replacing, but what to replace them with.
Vlocity could be a good replacement for the endeavour cars on the interurban service. Allowimg for the all the CAF short interurban to be CAF short regional trains to allow for increased regional train services
"Australian Built" trains would be locally assembled foreign trains with little local content. Victoria's factory is owned by Alstom and "Hopes" to reach 50% local content by 2030. We simply cannot make the trains here.
Electrification of even those portions of regional rail is a pipe dream. Serious enthusiasm for electrification died out in the state when the NSW government took the power stations the Railways owned off them packaged them up into a state owned electricity operator and then later sold the plants off. The NSW Railways used to be the largest energy supplier in the state, now electricity is just another expense.
11:58 The Amtrak Airo trains are just a modified version of the European Siemens Viaggio comfort I think. The ÖBB nightjet and railjet are based on this platform. They probably fit the loading gauge of NSW and require only little modifications.
@@thetrainguy4 Just would like to ask, where did you find the photos of the new regional fleet trains testing? I would like to keep track of progress from there!
I'm biased as a QLDer but the long XPTs ought to have been replaced by something akin to the Spirit of Queensland tilt train and the shorter versions a modified Vlocity. Both have proven reliable and are domestically manufactured. Alternatively, both Siemens/Alstom/Stadler offer much more appropriate options as you identify. All those trains on paper would have cost more, but with all the blow outs, one has to wonder if the CAF sets will be more expensive anyway.
(*sighs*) Look: The NSW government put out the tender for a class of train to replace both the XPT’s and the Endevour’s. So no tilt trains as they would be a waste of money for the endeavour provided services. I believe that that was a massive error, but they made that mistake, probably to be cheapskates, almost a decade ago now. Three bids for the tender were entered: Bombardier with a version of their Vlocity platform, CAF with a version of their Civity platform, and a bid from the consortium of Downer EDi & CRRC. Siemens, Stadler & Alstom didn’t bother putting in any bids, most likely due to a combination of the small size of the order and finding a model to meet the wide range of requirements. Bombardier, facing a massive global crisis in the company, had to pull out of the tender. So that left only CAF and Downer/CRRC. How about give the Civity’s a chance? This basic model of CAF’s isn’t among those which have had the structural integrity issues.
Corruption, plain and simple. Overseas manufacturer means overseas bank accounts which means untraceable to Australian authorities. Perfect for "back handers".
per the tfnsw website: "Based on industry benchmarking, supplier experience and previous train order costs, manufacturing the Regional Rail fleet overseas saves around 25 percent, which will be invested in other infrastructure and services."
Thank you for the update. I travel on the Wagga/Sydney section every about every three weeks. Including yesterday. I do Wagga to Melbourne occasionally. Yesterday there was an unusual delay. After Cootamundra (I think) the train slowed down significantly and continued for some distance. I noticed a trailer mounted cherry picker beside the track and assumed that there was a crew working near the track. Not so, there was an announcement that some mongrels had stolen the copper signal cables, so all track lights default to red. I assume that the Driver had to radio Control to get possession of each oncoming sector. The lack of sleepers is a mistake. These are popular and heavily booked. A big problem for me on the night train is that the design of the seat rotation mechanism limits leg room in First (I am 1.83m or 6ft). Strangely, there is no such problem in Economy. Anyway, if the seats are more comfortable and there is the promised WiFi and Power, I will be much happier. The track in NSW has many bad patches. Kepp up the good work.
Hi Peter, the sleepers may have been popular but they were very heavily subsidised. The additional cost over a standard 1st Class seat was only $80 but instead of over 40 seats of a standard 1st class cabin, you only had 18 sleepers. That’s money that could be spent elsewhere such as hospitals, and during peak travel periods, the standard seats would have been booked solid.
definitely agree with you about the 1st class tall person problem. I am 1.8m. the increased recline on 1st class actually means you stretch out more hence your feet will stretch further so the extra legroom doesn't help and actually feels more cramped than economy. Hence, after realising that, I'm sticking to economy. not worth the extra money if i'm going to be more cramped up.
You an add Hitachi to that list, our intercity express trains have cracking issues and Hitachi seem to struggle getting sets out each day, add to that the ones that currently have a diesel only restriction or have engines/gensets out. Plus one of the largest operators of IET's is going to CAF for new stock rather than Hitachi due to cost escalation of new units and the general dissatisfaction with Hitachi. Interestingly it was only because GWR and Hull Trains brought IET's out of the IEP contract that a lot of these issues were properly dealt with as Hitachi could not hide behind the IEP contract on trains that were financed normally. Alstom/Bombardier are also in the do not buy list, Austria rejected the trains they ordered from Bombardier and brought something else! In Britain we have carriages/multiple units/trams in service from most European manufacturers (CAF, Hitachi, Stadler/vossloh, Siemens, Adtranz/Bombardier/Alstom, EE/GEC, BREL, Brush, Met-Cam, Ansaldo), so we have a lot of experience and going by that Siemens or Stadler seem to be the way to go, our local station has mainly Siemens units (all that go to London) and they are excellent trains, clearly well built and very reliable.
Watching this video again, I like they way you provide the overlay of the UK onto NSW. It really emphasises the difference in scale between the two countries and puts travel distances into perspective. You make many valid points.
The news of all this cracking and other issues with CAF trains is an eye-opener for me. The only CAF products I've experienced are the 'AM' class electric multiple units in Auckland, and I haven't been aware of any major issues with them. They're still fairly reliable after nearly ten years of service.
Have to remember that the V/Locity was based on the Xplorer/Endeavour tractions. A Bi-Mode V/Locity would be fantastic not only for NSW Train Link, but for V/Line on the Gippsland line as well as others.
I see where you’re coming from but I have to disagree. The VLocity’s drawcard is speed, but the CAF units will reach 160 too. They also have underfloor engines and are generally considered inferior to the older N class + coaches for long distance services.
@@thetrainguy4 If we are talking about the Standard Guage V/Locity's they have a Catering car. Are the only ones. The issue with CAF is these new tractions would be built overseas and shipped whereas Alstom have local manufacturing. They make the Vlocity and the 4000 Class at the Dandenong facility. There is a reason why V/Line is transitioning to them. To me it makes perfect sense to make Bi Mode Vlocity's run on pre existing Xplorer and Endeavour routes. The V/Locity is proven for runs as long as Melbourne to Albury on Standard Guage. I think rather than have a unproven train try to do what 3 different tractions do to focus the LR for CAF and use an already proven design.
You are joking right, Victoria has the best regional service in Australia, Man i live in a regional Victoria and all i can say is that it is crap give me regional NSW any day of the week, At least there trains run the amount of times i have to get a VLine bus is unbelievable.
@johnshepherd1727 Could this be due to the Regional Rail or Big Build projects? I agree that service frequency needs to improve, would be nice if the Broad Guage DMU's had catering. Hard to argue about Victoria being best in Australia. I'd argue Victoria is behind NSW; I'd also argue that all the other states need to seriously consider Regional Rail. Victoria has been improving at a faster pace than NSW's, but it's comparing apples to oranges (However, I still stand that the V/Lo is still ideal over CAF short routes).
Maybe they haven’t been updated or can’t say anything as they are not “approved” to make comments. IE you don’t see a constable from NSWPF making comments being interviewed do you ? It’s usually an Inspector or higher.
The NSW Government should have just went with the existing Alstom DMU designs we use in Victoria as the Vlocity sets for the Xplorer/Endevour replacements and fitted the interiors out accordingly, and make any other adjustments as needed. They've proven to be a reliable design that suits most interurban trips pretty well, and I'm sure Alstom could engineer a well designed train for the XPT replacement too. Not only would these be built in Australia, most likely in Alstom's Dandenong or Ballarat factories, which supports local jobs, but would have probably ended up cheaper in the long run.
I took an Endeavor to Broken HIll, aside from the fact I could have walked faster, the journey was OK...Oh, except for the seats. So uncomfortable they must have been designed by a scaffolder.
I use the Greater Anglia Stadlers often. And as a wheelchair user I find them superb. In diesel mode they are limited to 125 kmh, but under the wires they can do 160kmh. Acceleration under 25 kv is impressive too. No need for a ramp either due to the low floor design. They were well thought out, and the disabled loos are so easy to use. The class 800s on LNER are not a patch on them, underfloor power means a higher body frame,and the need of assistance is required. The 91s are soldiering on, based at Neville Hill depot.
@@martinbalmforth2665 Whatever the reason: They didn’t enter any bid. I suspect it might be because they looked at the tender and saw that the modifications they would have to make for their standard offerings weren’t worth the effort nor the risk.
The problem here - as with the intercity electric fleet - is that Transport for NSW has a split personality. It's good to order trains off the shelf that don't require extensive modifications for local service, and that's a great thing for your commercial people to put out to tender. The problem is, if the trains can only enter service if they are compliant with the (mostly daft and irrelevant, but nobody has had the courage to go through the rulebook and work out which ones are daft and which ones are sensible) local rulebook, and if they have also buy-in from the RBTU (much of which is based on the rulebook, but they're also quite happy to raise their own concerns for things which aren't covered in the rulebook). You can't have an enterpreneurial cost-saving spirit in the procurement team if what you procure then gets torn to shreds by the acceptance teams! I don't think realistically we're going to see lighter-touch regulation or the RBTU chilling out in the lifetime of anyone posting here, so at that point you need to accept that the dead hands of regulation and the RBTU are essential, existent facts, and hence need to be factored in from the very first stages of the procurement process, whether you like them or not. Side point: the anti-CAF stuff here (as opposed to this contract, which has clearly been poorly managed on all sides) is a bit overblown - all rail manufacturers have unsuccessful projects with teething problems. The two-year delay to the Bombardier/Alstom trains for London Crossrail would have been a disaster had the construction delay not been three years! Hitachi have seen similar cracking issues in the UK, etc etc.
Agreed, that one of the concerns was the good record keeping by CAF tells me the government screwed the design brief and they know it. You complain about good contractor record keeping when they use it to prove you the client keep changing the design and issuing effective variations.
Concur John, the classic example is the RTBU fighting the inclusion of CCTVin the drivers cab. They are always concerned it will be used for ‘disciplinary’ purposes. Yet for me the irony is that you have one person in the cabin driving the train with potentially 300 people on board and drivers make mistakes; go through red lights, miss stops etc but there is no way of digging into the human factors that lead to these mistakes being made. Truck drivers and airline pilots have much higher levels of scrutiny
@@ianmondon9441 From memory, The government / transport were unwilling to have written down in an unchangeable way that, only in the event of incidences would the footage etc would be used. Also, "Potentially 300 people on board" try 1500-2000 people (at absolute max a.k.a "crush" capacity. Going through "red lights" is not a common occurrence (definitely not daily), And when this happens the driver is removed from driving duties until an investigation is conducted (including a mandatory drug and alcohol test), And pending the investigation they may be upskilled, or fired, or given the chance to become a guard. Missing stops again given the amount of rail movements is not a common occurrence, As an aside depending on the Airlines own policy: In Australia a Pilot can have a Blood alcohol level of 0.02 and still be allowed to fly a plane (0.04 in the US from what I can see), Whereas for a Passenger train driver (in NSW, not sure about the other states) the max allowable limit is.... ZERO
How is maintenance centre being in Dubbo logistically sound? Are there any government document trying to justify this or at least highlighting the obvious deficiencies?
Justified on the grounds of providing regional employment. That got the Nationals on side. I can see future consultants recommending a maintenance base be built in Sydney nearer the centre of their 'network' to improve 'operational efficiency'. I expect by that time the existing XPT maintenance centre at Meeks Rd will be a high-rise apartment complex.
The last Xplorer I caught up to Sydney from Canberra (in 2017 mind you, AFL Grand final day to be exact) got about 10 minutes from Central when the cabin started filling with smoke! The staff were unsure how to respond and just panicked without actually responding/investigating properly. The cabin Air conditioner unit had been making a bunch of noise prior to this, so I suspect a compressor failure or similar. What I am saying is these trains have needed replacing for 7 years at least! If only the NSW Govt wasn't so short sighted, and actually invested in improving the service/making it a more attractive alternative to driving, as currently it takes about 2 hours longer on the train (4.5 vs. 2.5) to get from Canberra to Central, with only 3 services offered per day (which are almost always full).
Replacement was a Nationals promise 9 years ago. They faffed about for ages, and the Libs finally ordered something from O/S. This explains why failed trains are going to have to be dragged to Dubbo for repair, rather than this being central somewhere around Sydney. No doubt SSR will be happy.
As a NSW retired railwayman .... no way will the Shoalhaven River be crossed with a new railway bridge ,,,,, dozens of Per way etc looking into this .... WILL NOT HAPPEN today ......... sadly .
For the life of me I can not understand how the train terminates on the wrong side of the river. To go to Bega the trains really need to run a _whole_ lot faster. Something that should be a target everywhere.
Leave it to the Coalition to completely stuff up a train build project. When we have a number train manufacturers in Australia which are familiar with our conditions, requirements and punishing environment, and deliver trains quicker and cheaper, yet the Coalition insists on throwing good money after bad on trains from India, Spain, etc.
We “did have” a number of train manufacturing facilities. However they have all gone by the wayside. Clyde/Granville manufacturing = gone. Pretty sure Comeng = gone
@@ClamTram96 Try more like over 30 years ago. In 1990 their remaining assets were sold off to ABB. And the Tangara’s weren’t very good, and were the only things they ever built that weren’t at least 5 years behind the times technologically.
Try living in the present and not in the past. The only entirely Australian rolling stock manufacturers still around today are Downer EDI & UGL. And it's been a long time since either undertook their own independent procurement project, Downer have had to do their last few projects as joint consortium’s.
Leave it to Labor to stuff up things for it was Labor that chose Germany to make a new boiler for 3801 when it could have been done by Ipswich Railway Workshops who put in a tender to do the boiler but they weren't as cheap as Germany. The people at Thirlmere were on hand to give advice but not good enough for Labor who employed consultants who ignored the real experts at Thirlmere and got they dimensions horribly wrong resulting in a cylinder of steal that fits nothings. Liberal Labor it doesn't matter for they're as incompetent as each other. Neither party want's a regional rail system but they do it for the "green" vote. This explains why most Australians including me drive in regional areas and I'm a railway enthusiast.
In Canada, VIA rail ordered the US Siemens "Venture" heavy steel trains. The project is late and VIA did start recently to accept trains. A couple of trains were in "service" but still onwed by Siemens until problems would be fixed. Amtrak has also had probems and delays. The problem with "made in america" is that it isn't just where it is built, but the neeed to swap all components that were alreadt tested to work and put in untested "made in USA" components. Essentially a new train with new components (and because of FRA regulatiosn with less performance). Australia ordering from CAF in spain is in a way smart because the goal is to get trains that work provide service instead of providing temorary jobs in Australia and having to cope with all the delays of starting production etc. A lot of the issues such as seat pitch and interior fittings are customer problems, not CAF baseline train problems. If union discovers the cab conrols is not t their liking late into project, it is the union's problem for either not looking into it earlier or just accepting more modern cabs. (there are european standards for controls because or ERTMS so that cabs in european trains become more and more standard). That no accomodation was made for overnight service is very strange considering 2 main links make sense as overnight trains. (and the fact that sleeping car acocmodation is hard to get on existing services because demand > supply. Same for having under-coach diesel motors for SYL-MEL and SYD-Brisbane. That doesn't work for overnight or all day train service. Since there is more demand for the short range train that are higher frequency and fewer cars, having DMUs can be justified. And I am guesssing the governement figured it was simpler to ride on the same order for the long distance versions and still use DMUs. (but not quite such as DMUs can be hybrid though? 1 pantograph for each car?)
The "union problem" would be the Liberals not including them in the process. Look at the $billions wasted on Korean garbage, now on scrap roads all around greater Sydney. If they had consulted unions on the spec, I am sure the build quality issues would have been resolved by now (on average one significant fault per carriage), and they would be in service.
What an awesome choice. Could have gone to Bonbadier to be manufactured in Melbourne using rolling stock that are already proven in Victoria, using Australian labour - but nope, off to Spain!
No they couldn’t have “gone to Bombardier”. Because Bombadier had to withdraw their tender bid. Because they were going bankrupt as a company. It was either CAF or the same Downer/CRRC consortium that made a dogs breakfast of the Waratah EMU’s. We’ll have to see how the Civity’s eventuate. You might be surprised.
thanks for the video. As a victorian train enthusiast i didn’t know much about what was going on other than the fact that they were delayed. however i am not impressed by the fact that these trains have been ordered off the shelf, will have no sleeper cabins and will have a DMU design that is not fit for an 11 hour journey. Here in Victoria, we used to have a problem with ordering rollingstock off the shelf about 20 years ago, our C & D class trams were ordered off the shelf from France and Germany respectively and are not fit for Melbourne at all: the C class trams wobble at high speed and have uncomfortable seats whereas the D class have a general lack of seating. As for trains, our X’Trapolis 100 and Siemens Nexas trains were ordered from the same countries and had/have problems with braking, bad riding and bad cab design. We have since overcome that problem and now order our trains and trams customised for Melbourne/Victoria. Our VLocity trains are a proven and reliable DMU rail car type that would be comfortable for 2 hour journeys. They could be ordered by NSW and used on your intercity lines to places like Goulburn and Bathurst.
I read that Melbourne's C class trams were originally supposed to be operated in southern France instead, with the tram operator having operations in both areas
Comming from a British (with some European Experience), Whilst electrification of the intercity routes is probably a good idea, electrification fo the new routes would probably need to be done as a 25Kv AC installtion for the greater distances involved, with the trains themselves being "Dual Current" running from both the newer AC and older 1.5KvDC on existing corridors (like what is done on some Eurostar, TGV, and other european stock. Even UK has many Dual Current trains switchign from 700V DC Third Raid to 25,000V AC from Overhead cables, even on the move. And yes its possible even for a High Speed train, as the Eurostar Class 373 when originally built easily switched from 700V DC Third rail (in the UK), 1500V DC overhead (regional french) and 25kv AC on the high speed LGVs, and were able to switch on the move.
As an ex-PRINCE2 practitioner watching the whole project has been puzzling. This is a project and yet the information website has not, for the past two years, and still does not, have a project timeline. I have asked via the contact form for the timeline - what is in between right now and the sets being in service. Their last response (24/11/2023) was "Production of the new Regional Rail trains is underway with nine trains currently on the production line in Spain. The timeline for their delivery will be confirmed once the manufacturing testing and assurance phase is complete." Which tells me nothing. Once delivered, then what steps? A project is time-bound and for multi-billion dollar project to have no public timeline is not good project management. For those not familiar with PRINCE2 it is a well-respected widely-used project management methodology demanded and developed by the UK government to address both time and money overruns in large infrastructure projects. I am a regular regional train customer. What I want to know is when the trains will be in revenue service. Thanks for the video and your efforts to uncover the project status.
Great video! There are definitely concerns with the delivery, however TfNSW under the Liberal government was very much aiming for fleet standardisation as much as possible and I believe that's one often overlooked reason for the CAF bid selected. The NRF could in theory have 3 layouts and one maintenance stream reducing (in theory) ongoing maintenance costs. One thing missed in the video is the maintenance centre being located at Dubbo with the need for long transfers and secondary minor maintenance facilities in Sydney or elsewhere. Add to that what is essentially a one for one fleet replacement scheme as well when the XPT fleet has only one spare power car, not to mention not have spare endeavour and Explorer replacements when they need to transfer to Dubbo. On another note ONRSR (the independent, national industry safety regulator) has been highlighting in many of its reports the need for in cab cameras for many years now. These provide important post-incident information to investigators and are standard all the world over and its a shame to see this feature removed. Having in cab cameras is also a very fast way to exonerate the driver from any possible incident, particularly if there is a reason the driver cannot be interviewed after the incident.
The union will always reject in cab cameras for fear they will be used against the driver. Much of the problems experienced with the introduction of new rolling stock is union based. I fear these new trains will be a repeat of the Dset debacle.
Already have cameras on the front of the train, and the data loggers give you a pretty complete picture of crews actions. If in-cab cameras aren't required for aircraft, we don't need them on trains. I could however get behind driving cab voice recorders, only accessible by the ATSB in the instance of serious incidents.
@@lachlancannard in cab cameras are being used world wide and there aren't massive job losses due to in cab cameras in Japan or Europe. Buses do have driver cameras without audio. Front of train cameras record track workers and lessons are learned from these interactions (again without massive job losses), station staff are recorded (again without massive job losses). Are these staff second class to train drivers and guards? Audio isn't really required as an safeworking communication is recorded on the phone to the signaller. At the end of the day a train driver can be responsible for up to 1,000 people. If there's something in cab vision post incident can tell us to ensure we correctly address the root cause, then so be it. The recommendation for an in cab cameras hasn't come from a political faction or party, it is a safety recommendation. Yes there needs to be guard rails around it, no one can deny that.
Would be good to have a test run with passengers from Sydney to Melb & return to get a real time response from actual passengers. Could you they refurbish some of the Sleepers to ad to train. Change outside colours to match new XPTs ?
Here in the US Amtrak has had problems with CAF. In 2010 Amtrak placed an order for 130 "Viewliner" cars to be delivered over a 5 year period. So, how long did it take for CAF to kick out 130 cars you ask? Eleven years with the last car being handed over to Amtrak in August 2021. During the production run Amtrak had to issue several "stop work" orders to CAF account defects and poor quality of construction. The original contract called for an option for an additional 70 cars but after all the problems and delays Amtrak decided to not exercise the option. I suspect CAF is probably on Amtrak's Never Again list. The Siemens Amtrak Airo train sets you mentioned are just the Americanized version of the OBB Railjet Ventura cars. Cars of this type are already in service in Florida with Brightline as well as Amtrak routes out of Chicago and California. Yes there were some initial problems with the Chicago based train cars but they have for the most part been corrected. In Canada VIA rail has also ordered trainsets from Siemens for use on it's eastern routes. As far as I know VIA has had no problems with the new trains the first of which is now in service between Montreal and Toronto. The Airo train sets ordered for NEC service will be 8 cars long. The first car will feature an pantograph and a transformer for Head End Power (HEP) for HVAC, lights and other electrical needs as well as providing power to the traction motors on the Charger diesel locomotive. At stations were the wires end the diesel will be started up and the pantograph lowered. This will take much less time than the current change of locomotives does. One thing to mention is that Siemens built the new sleepers for the OBB NightJet fleet. Like the RailJet cars these cars could be modified to run with the Airo trainsets as there has been calls to restore sleeping car service between Washington and Boston. The first of the new Siemens train sets is supposed to enter service in late 2025 in the Pacific northwest between Portland and Vancouver on the Cascadia service. The NEC trainsets will follow shortly there after. BTW - what ever happened to Railpage? They've been down since October. They were my main way of keeping up on rail info down under. They have deleted all their pages on Facebook. I hope they're not gone for good ...
To clarify, VIA's Siemens trains operate currently most trips on the Ottawa-Montréal-Québec route, and there are one or two sets each on the Toronto-Montréal and Toronto-Ottawa routes. They seem to be operating without issue, though the start of service was later than originally planned, which has resulted in train shortages as older trains are retired without replacements (most of the old fleet has structural issues, and some coaches are as much as 75 years old). Amtrak did briefly restore sleeper service between Washington and Boston in 2021 but cancelled it again in 2022. The distance is a bit short for a sleeper train, but it could be useful for trips that continue on to Virginia.
I think Railpage is in fact gone, unfortunately. If I recall correctly the issues in the Midwest were due to snow, so not much to worry about there. I’ve travelled on Via’s sets and they were very nice.
It's going to be interesting to see how these trains are allocated now that Sydney Trains will be taking over some of NSW Trainlink areas and rail stock
It makes you think twice, imagine the Sydney to Melbourne 12 hours sitting in a seat its bad enough today on the XPT were you need a chiropractor after 1 journey....the whole idea of train travel is its suppose to be comfortable, affordable, accessible, in car dining service & sleeper option ... this is impractical on ever level...buses are looking very appealing maybe someone needs to get the jump on this with sleeper & airline style buses
It would be wonderful if the future passenger stock did run at speeds up to 200 kph. But, and it’s a big but, the trackwork and the gradients encountered in regional NSW is not up to the task of providing safe passage at these speeds. The intercity route between Sydney, Gosford and Newcastle stills runs on the same amount of time as the steam era. I have measured the speed of passenger services doing less than 60 kph between Hornsby and Woy Woy. Freight services frequently slow down the progress of passenger services. It will be interesting to see how compatible high speed rail passenger services mix with much lower speed freight services given the reduced infrastructure of loops on country tracks.
Andrew, the regional tracks operated by ARTC will rarely allow operation of trains at high speed. Their track standard is based around serving freight trains and not higher speed passenger services. Additionally they are not funded to raise the standard. It cost the Victorian Government over $300M to improve the standard of the line between Melbourne and Albury which allowed trains to reliably travel at track speeds. If they want to keep the track to that standard, ARTC will need ongoing funding, a point they have made to the Victorians
@@ianmondon9441 Yes, I agree. You are right, unfortunately. How come other countries do have spectacular passenger services? Why can’t we change the present regime, even if it is only some areas only? Is Change not allowed? Adding additional passenger track could be one solution. We once had a ridiculous situation with 3 different gauges operating on the mainland. Gradually this changed slowly, some say glaciers move faster than the railway industry.
You know who has had success with Long distance, train building? Downer in Maryborough. Electric tilt trains running since 1998, and diesel to Cairns from 2003.
@@camboi6103that’s what the initial sticker price would suggest, but time after time the cost and time blowouts and legal disputes with the OS manufacturers always ends up with a locally manufactured product being cheaper in the long run.
Are they designed to withstand hitting kangaroos? Was once on thr XPT to Melbourne and we it a Kangaroo. It completely ripped out vital controls from the front Motor. Had to run purely on the back motor from the remainder of the trip.
I was on the Newcastle line and it was a newer train the doors wouldn't close for 15 mins! 45 mins into the trip passengers were told there was track problems and everyone was to take a school like bus.!
When people who are good with spreadsheets, are allowed to make decisions....... without talking to people in the industry.... Just like the newest Ferries.......
I dont inow if it's just me.. But these honestly do look almost identical to the MK5s - But obviously with the ability to power itself without requiring a loco on one end. If the issues you lot are experiencing, as well ws the many, MANY issues we've had with literally every single CAF design the UK has ever received, you lot are in big trouble. We still to this day experience occasional problems with the 195s and 331s, although the 196 and 197 seem to have faired much better. That being said though, it was CAF taking over the depot facilities at Chester to maintain the 197s from Alstom that then caused the 175 Coridia units to start failing and catching fire in their droves, leading to the entire class being withdrawn early, and no operator wanting them.
Some real head scratching choices there. DMUs for long haul make no sense. As you mentioned, the Siemens Charger and venture cars would work much better. And as for sleeper cars, Siemens has the NightJet cars from Austria which are in the same family as the Venture cars (Venture is just an Americanized RailJet car). The pantograph/cab car that Amtrak is going to use would work well as a dual mode solution for Australia as well. The Aus goverment and unions constantly demanding design changes isn't helping either.
This is the New South Wales government and Unions not the Australian one. Australian government has no say in how the states administer their transport. Which is why Australia has 3 different rail gauges lol
These are DEMU's and not DMU's like the Endeavour, Xplorer, hunter railcar and the vlocity. The power units are in the bogie areas and not directly under the passenger compartment. Being bi modal is important because it allows the trains to use the overhead on some of our steepest grades around Sydney. The electric traction removes the gearbox whine you get on the other 4 trains that I mentioned when accelerating. I really have no idea what he is going on about in regards to heat because you don't notice it in any of those trains especially with the more powerful air conditioning units we have.
Overseas shouldn't have even been considered for these but the previous nsw coalition governement was intent on closing down unionised workforces in NSW. What should have happened is that UGL or EDI in the newcastle area in NSW bee given orders since both have experience in building these types of train sets in Australia. Both could easily have built bi modal trains as they make diesel and electric trains and the power units being used would have been available to these 2 companies as well.
If the hunter line was electrified to maitland what rolling stock would you run on it, if you got rid of the endeavours? You cant get rid of the hunter cars because they serice scone and dungog. They didnt order enough NERF's to go around. Overall i found your video informative and quite accurate.
Some very good content in this video. The super reliable XPT always was and always will be a great train. Think when the trains arrive, we are going to say, hmmmm not as good as the XPT....
As frequent user of the Canberra Sydney XPT and Kiama to Berry sets, reliability and on time service was not my first thought. Extreme noise, both diesel and creaking, vibration, slow speed, poor layout and ugly design is.
Just took the Explorer, the XPT's sister train from Moss Vale to Canberra last Monday. *Over one and half hours late* with a string of wildly varying arrival times. No-one could give an accurate time or explanation, so couldn't leave the platform to even get a coffee. My wife was just supposed to catch the Sydney to Canberra today midday. Just rang me. Derailment, so onto the awful bus replacement service... ....again.
Similar to 38 years ago when the XPT's arrived and we said...hmmmm not as good as the Syd/Mel Express, the Southern Aurora, the Spirit of Progress or the Intercapital Daylight.
@@electro_sykes The problems with the Waratah trains are the internal fit outs. Poor quality of workmanship, air conditioning that doesn’t work properly (if it works at all), doors that fail, etc.
This cracking issue sounds like they won't last long on the extremely rough outer lines. Also yet again going with trains that can do 160km/h while *still* refusing to improve any of the rail up to that level :(
Yeah, they are bimodes. You run on electric mode while overhead power is available and then switch to diesel when you get past it. This isn't that uncommon nowadays.
Rail equipment that can operate on both electric and diesel is actually a lot more common than people realize. All three commuter railroads here in NYC have them to access the manhattan terminal stations, which ban pure diesel powered trains due to lack of proper ventilation. The GE P32-ACDM (Metro-North and Amtrak) and the EMD DM-30AC (Long Island Rail Road) both have Diesel and third rail systems, while the Bombardier ALP-45DP (New Jersey Transit) has diesel and overhead capacity. The first two will be replaced by the Siemens SC-42DM, a diesel/3rd rail version of their “selling like hotcakes” Charger locomotives.
With the repeated failures and withdrawal of regional airlines services, regional rail is so important. Can't we use some foresight and pre-emptive design improvements to prevent the cracks that plague past trains from this manufacturer? Surely design changes gotta be cheaper than accepting this fleet and have to retire them
Delay is new normal so as cost blowout! Look at the Sydney Metro extension which has just opened last month. $10 billion over budget is just around double of the initial price. Pacific Hwy Upgrade incl lots of duplication was around $15 billions.
No sleeper cars, that probably a big mistake for long haul travels as people will just op for driving or flying if they’re force to sit upright for the whole travel
is it just me or is this video really quiet? I've had to pump up the volume to the point where the adds a ludicrously loud to get the video loud enough to hear properly?
Just two days ago on 15 Feb 2024 I saw one of the new trains being towed by a loco through Epping Station. The distinctive orange livery made me notice it. Unfortunately I have only just seen this video so didn't really know what I was seeing until now.😊
Still not enough cars to allow for more services like a twice a day service to dubbo or even onto parkes and there could have used some of these sr sets to provide a few extra services like a early morning tamworth to newcastle service or even a griffith to junee shuttle to allow people to meet the train at junee for both melbourne and sydney services. But that of course means more staff and we cant have that
@@qjtvaddict the issue is many lines date back to the steam age and would take billions to fix. A jr company came out mid 2000 and gave a proposal for high speed rail but like normal the gov sat on its hand and they walked away. Plus they need more sets to allow more shuttle services like twice a day newcastle to tamworth instead of once a day. Daily service junee to griffith and junee to cootamundra but just need to update some platforms on the coota to griffith line. Could do daily parkes service by running 2 sets to orange and spilt there or stand alone orange to broken hill but of course they wont do anything like this
CAF have a fairly solid reputation in Europe with their trains running in many countries with few complaints, the delivery date of the sets kept changing due to Covid in Europe which meant many industries closed down, CAF was not exempt from that, and thus assembly parts and staffing levels at the factories became an issue. Australia has a more unique and rugged, not to mention "antique" rail system when you leave the environs of Sydney so the CAF sets need to be different for Australian conditions than "off the shelf" European sets. Australian train manufacture has dropped away to virtually zero, the majority of trains "built" here are actually from kits imported from the parent company in 20 and 40 foot containers with the external bodywork and interior built here. The Victorian "Vlocity" sets may have been a better option but the NSW state government went with CAF. The NSW state government has a very poor record when it comes to ordering new passenger rolling stock and lack of consultation with stakeholders and the union, not to mention political interference/favouritism (building the depot at Dubbo NSW).
It seems more like the constant changes ordered by the corresponding authority keeps delaying the trains. All railway manufacturers have issues, but CAF has thousands of units in operation across the world with no problems.
@thetrainguy4 hi there I’m a train fan I understand your idea for the Siemens charger as are new government has plans to get Australian made transport it may be more suitable to keep the xpt coaches and buy a modified freight locomotive from ugl and add a generator to power the coaches and to replace xplorer and endeavour I suggest a modified version of the hunter valley railcar
If the first deliveries are to arrive in NSW in Q1 2024 as stated , logic tells us they should be either on the ship or about to be shipped very soon , what are the chances? .. the saying “ Buckleys and no chance “ springs to mind .
Typical bungle from the former LNP government, they never could get public transport orders right, for them it was always about saving money and going with the cheapest possible tenders. I'm not a fan of this new design
no they can't, the NBN is a prime example of their incompetence or more likely carelessness and complete disregard for what Australians need for a better future, LNP bungle almost everything for transport to healthcare and hospitals etc @@Firedogies
History shows both parties have infrastructure failures. Last Labor NSW Gov had nothing done. Almost no new transport links, no new roads, a shockingly embarrassing train network. Liberal came in and did a great job the first 1-2 terms of government, then really started to disappoint with cheap-skating infrastructure such as with the NIF project, new regional fleet and new road interchanges. I guess their idea is “get as much done as possible to impress, but it’ll be too expensive in-house.”. Labor prefers in-house built infrastructure, which is far more costly and is subject to a lot of battle with unions, therefore bugger all gets done and huge debt applied.
other then stuck with this mess? everything they can to help the average Australian. labor isn't perfect but they are better then the LNP, no idea why people white knight for a party that consistently screws up on purpose to help big business, which i am sure you aren't. @@simonf8902
In Brussels we've been lucky I guess. The M6 and M7 metro trains make up a significant portion of our metro network's fleet and they've been fairly reliable.
Bomaderry could be served by a dedicated Illawarra line bi-mode fleet, which would eliminate the change at Kiama. My question is how often the new LR trains will need re-fueling and how long will that take? Whilst running under electric power to and from Broadmeadow will extend the range on north coast and Brisbane services, they surely can't run the entire trip on 1 tank of fuel. Presently the XPT re-fuels one power car each way to Casino and Brisbane and then the other car on the return service. Will the new trains do 3 cars each way, with the consequent delay. How will Melbourne services be impacted? (I am presuming that NSW TrainLink are concerned about journey times.)
I have a hunch the Bomaderry shuttle may be extended to Wollongong and perhaps a few specials to Sydney. I should hope fueling is not an issue on the Melbourne run, not so sure about Brissy.
I think a huge problem here is what we call regional services and what the Europeans call "regional" services are *totally* different. The European idea of a regional service is essentially our Intercity services... and for that *maybe* the CAF design would work. But Brisbane? Melbourne? Broken Hill? In a DMU? Absolute insanity. I think the best bet would have been to go with conventional loco hauled rolling stock, with a hybrid locomotive fleet, with proper sleeping cars and a buffet car. These could easily be built locally, with just the locos imported, and they'd be simple, rugged and long lasting. Essentially, just make a new XPT, but with a bigger fleet. We need sleeper service for sustainable, acessible travel. I travel SYD-BNE quite a lot, and I don't want to fly. Ideally we'd have Euro style high speed rail on that corridor, but since we don't, sleeper trains are our work-around solution. Having loco hauled stock would also allow the possibility of adding autorail/car carriers, which is a good revenue earner, and offers a huge convenience factor for passengers, and a big selling point for long distance services over flying.
I love the qld rail tilt train. They can go up to 200km however Australia’s hot climate doesn’t allow for it so they had to slow the speed down after a few derailments. There’s the Bundaberg service the Rockhampton tilt train then the diesel cairns tilt train. The last one has a shower in the car you have toilets and a baby change table. There is plenty of room even in economy reclining seats with space (im tall) and video viewing of movies that change monthly. This also has a live feed from the front of the train that shows train speed. There’s USB ports for phones radio and free internet included. It does have some dropout zones. The sleepers are large comfort chairs that recline with more leg room. The business class has further leg room individual screens on back of chairs leather seats foot rest charge points radio also with headphones multiple channels a travel blanket you can keep and a blow up neck pillow. Meal carts come to you as the speeds mean walking can be dangerous and not recommended unless necessary. I’ve been on the cairns tilt train and the Rockhampton tilt train. The tickets are expensive but with the service you receive it’s worth the cost. 10/10. Beats the old trains. The current NSW long distance train to Brisbane I’ve had issues with allergic reactions due to dust mites. Although I’ve been on it several times and enjoyed it the experience is nothing like the tilt train. The tilt train from memory were 2nd hand refurbished to suit QLD rail tracks including the gage of the tracks with the chassis. Purchased from Japans old fleet. The Rockhampton tilt train was the first of its fleet announced in 1996. Only coming a few years later. There was fireworks when it arrived for its maiden voyage from Brisbane to arrive home for service in Rockhampton. Despite a few run ins derailments and idiots not giving way on Denison street train line which runs through the centre of town down the middle of the road it’s been very successful. I would love to see NSW new trains but if it’s got faults in the steal frames there no way I. He’ll I’d consider it. I’ve seen 30 seconds to disaster.
The tilt trains are nice and I’d love to go on one someday. A few things though. Every long distance train has toilets etc. The XPTs (and most sleepers) have showers too. Buffets are vastly superior to a trolley service and I call BS on the unsafe to walk thing. They just want more space for seats. They were built new in Rockhampton iirc.
I've heard it said that the then government was opposed to unions philosophically ('let's not give them any more power!') and so started buying trains. off-shore.
An excellent video revealing public policy fiasco. To complete the "charge sheet" you might consider making a companion video on the commissioning and ultimate suppression of the McNaughton Report on Faster Regional Rail for NSW. Another failing of the tender process is simply not ordering enough trains to cope with current and likely future demand. The three times each way a day Sydney-Canberra service is running at over 90 percent capacity. Services are regularly booked out days or weeks in advance. The ACT Government is lobbying for extra capacity - longer trains and more of them. With a bit of foresight the Canberra-Sydney service would comfortably support six-eight trips each way everyday rather than the current three. But there just isn't the rolling-stock. The extent of the planning disaster outlined in the video raises the prospect of some sort of federal bail-out to set things right. Otherwise rail travelers are condemned for another decade or more of substandard and inadequate services.
I understand that that when the order was placed, it was for the basic shells (to get a place on the production queue), and for the fit out to be decided "in due course". Now that it has got to that stage, the costs of this work have increased considerably to what was indicated initially. Along with TfNSW changing its mind about what it wants, it appears CAF is milking them for every dollar it can.
Why jump to that conclusion? I would think the more likely explanation is that Australian workshops are already at capacity trying to make the intercity fleet work.
You may well have been misinformed. The tender responses required detailed, dimensioned layouts and computer generated 3D modelling. TfNSW knew exactly what had been offered. Normally, during negotiations with the preferred tenderer, any changes to the offer are discussed, price and schedule impacts provided, and, eventually the contract is inked. Many major changes were requested after the contract was awarded. Rumour has it that the composition of various stakeholders changed after contract award leading to new demands. If that is true, then TfNSW are responsible for the ensuing mess.
Great video Our tracks are too old and poorly maintained to allow high speed running. I do think tilting trains could be a stop gap measure to at least get decent average speeds. Today's services are a joke. We certainly need comfortable seats at the moment as it takes so bloody long to get anywhere . Thanks for your informative article .Definitely gets you thinking. I love trains . They are overlooked in this country as a viable solution for passenger and freight .
I wonder if the cars parked just outside Lithgow are the CAP cars? As a kid, I saw the first XPT come through Bathurst in about 1983. They were seen as the future, and they are still in, 40 years later, so I guess they were right! So often we see govt decisions take the cheapest option which ends up being the slowest and most expensive. I really hope they get this sorted so regional NSW has a half decent rail network.
Another example of an oversea design not accounting for Local requirements. Similar examples are Perth C-Series, Mariyung, x'trapolis 2.0 and I’m guessing Queensland QMT project will seen the same delay and cost blowouts.
It's up to the government body to get the requirements correct and watertight when they draw up the tender. A manufacturer is only liable if their bid wins but their product doesn't meet requirements.
Agree but the governments are back into a corner due to the delayed delivery schedule to accept inferior non-comforting product to get something on tithe tracks. They can only maintain their aging fleets so long.
@@shaggydog9767 If the product delivered does not meet specification; TfNSW would have grounds for cancelling the contract and getting compensation from the supplier. Or (in the case of uncomfortable furniture); grounds to force the supplier to refit with better furniture at their own cost. No apology offered: You have no grounds yet to declare that the finished product will be "inferior" nor "non-comforting". But the NSW government is backed into a corner, but that is their own fault for having such an incompetent procurement process. nd not just for these trains but also the intercity fleet contract with Hyundai-Rotem (who unlike CAF have a good reputation). Had they done it properly; these things would've already been in service for a couple of years, poor quality or not.
@@danieleyre8913 Time to live in the real word. When did you hear of a government cancelling a contract? The list of concession grate to modern supply contracts is excessive even given some of the requirement are out dated.
NSW TrainLink (or whoever ordered these trains) should've chose Bombardier instead, it's so much better and I'm sure cracks won't plague them within the first 5 years of service!
@@thetrainguy4 They did before, like the second series of the Superliners for Amtrak. And the LRCs that Via Rail in Canada operate, although the LRC locomotives aren’t in use anymore, only the carriages are still running.
You know who has had success with Long distance, train building? Downer in Maryborough. Electric tilt trains running since 1998, and diesel to Cairns from 2003.
@@thetrainguy4 Under floor engines do not necessarily equate to a hot and noisy carriage (though compared to an electric train there is noise, just not unbearable / uncomfortable)
@@thetrainguy4The cracks were I believe between the lifting mounts and the bogie not the structural bogie itself. However underfloor engines are terrible for noise and vibration.
Great video, I hold great fears for these trains the CAF moniker "Cheap A F" is the obvious reason the previous government got them involved in so many projects. I do believe the extension of the electrification is a far better solution but that would mean those lines would be subject to the just as bad NIF design another of the past government failures.
CAF do generally make cheaper, more basic, not so technologically advanced, models of rolling stock. And they are known to be a bit on the dodgy side. But while certain models of trains they have made in recent years have had design flaws and cracks in bodies appearing: The vast majority of the rolling stock that CAF have made over the decades for operators across the world have been at least adequate and have done the job. They’re also one of the remaining rolling stock manufacturers who are willing to put in bids for smaller rolling stock tenders (such as this one) which the industry giants such as Alstom, Hitachi, Siemens and the now former Bombadier, do not bother with. We’ll just have to see how these trains eventuate as. Maybe they will also develop big cracks (which would be the first Civity model based trains that do) or maybe they’ll be fine. But it should be noted that the disasters in this project thus far have much more to do with the useless NSW government than with CAF.
Actually, it's because NSW Government regardless of party couldn't give a stuff about the Hunter Line because the whole line is in Safe Seats. It's why they kept the old 620/720 classes running on it for a decade and a half after withdrawing them from every other line. They would have kept them running, had someone not died from falling through an open door on it.
@@NoVigilance yeah its the exactly the same thing as back then, Hunter line always gets the short straw, Newcastle in general does thats why we lost part of our train line and got the cheapest possible tram they could make. Electrification up to Maitland would be cheap and easy to do and would lead to better service but no party would commit the money
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I've seen some, uh, interesting takes here and thought I should clarify some things:
1. Australian built trains would not be immune from teething issues especially as our local manufacturing (in NSW at least) is out of practice making passenger stock.
2. VLocities are not really ideal replacement trains, perhaps they could work on the Canberra run but not much more.
3. I'm not advocating for immediate replacement of these trains. Rather, we should use this as a learning point for future contracts which seem likely to occur as these trains don't have sleeping berths.
Finally keeping the XPTs in service, even with an overhaul, is an awful idea. They were revolutionary in regional rail when introduced, but they have to go. Their molded fibreglass cab ends look sleek, but as we learnt at Wallan, are not even slightly protective of occupants. HSTs in the UK could be banned by unions over these issues. The issue is not whether they need replacing, but what to replace them with.
We'd be happy to have the Velocity trains on the Canberra run - the only regional line running at near capacity. We actually need extra trains.
no sleepers for the Sydney to Melbourne. Sleepers will actually make it decent as you will be able to fall asleep easier on the night run
Vlocity could be a good replacement for the endeavour cars on the interurban service. Allowimg for the all the CAF short interurban to be CAF short regional trains to allow for increased regional train services
"Australian Built" trains would be locally assembled foreign trains with little local content. Victoria's factory is owned by Alstom and "Hopes" to reach 50% local content by 2030. We simply cannot make the trains here.
@@suave-rider Australia used to 100% make its trains so we can do it again. Look at maryborough queensland, back at it again from 2026
Electrification of even those portions of regional rail is a pipe dream. Serious enthusiasm for electrification died out in the state when the NSW government took the power stations the Railways owned off them packaged them up into a state owned electricity operator and then later sold the plants off. The NSW Railways used to be the largest energy supplier in the state, now electricity is just another expense.
Corruption is now a global pandemic.
11:58 The Amtrak Airo trains are just a modified version of the European Siemens Viaggio comfort I think. The ÖBB nightjet and railjet are based on this platform. They probably fit the loading gauge of NSW and require only little modifications.
With a diesel engine and slightly different electrical set up, but yes I see where you’re coming from
@@thetrainguy4 Just would like to ask, where did you find the photos of the new regional fleet trains testing? I would like to keep track of progress from there!
I'm biased as a QLDer but the long XPTs ought to have been replaced by something akin to the Spirit of Queensland tilt train and the shorter versions a modified Vlocity. Both have proven reliable and are domestically manufactured.
Alternatively, both Siemens/Alstom/Stadler offer much more appropriate options as you identify. All those trains on paper would have cost more, but with all the blow outs, one has to wonder if the CAF sets will be more expensive anyway.
(*sighs*)
Look: The NSW government put out the tender for a class of train to replace both the XPT’s and the Endevour’s. So no tilt trains as they would be a waste of money for the endeavour provided services. I believe that that was a massive error, but they made that mistake, probably to be cheapskates, almost a decade ago now.
Three bids for the tender were entered: Bombardier with a version of their Vlocity platform, CAF with a version of their Civity platform, and a bid from the consortium of Downer EDi & CRRC. Siemens, Stadler & Alstom didn’t bother putting in any bids, most likely due to a combination of the small size of the order and finding a model to meet the wide range of requirements.
Bombardier, facing a massive global crisis in the company, had to pull out of the tender. So that left only CAF and Downer/CRRC.
How about give the Civity’s a chance? This basic model of CAF’s isn’t among those which have had the structural integrity issues.
@@danieleyre8913 Time will tell, I'll be riding them either way, good or bad.
High speed trains are a novelty in Australia an dnot needed. just political point scoring.
And the community is gullible enough to buy it.
Corruption, plain and simple. Overseas manufacturer means overseas bank accounts which means untraceable to Australian authorities. Perfect for "back handers".
Would love to see a breakdown analysis of the costs comparing buying overseas to organising manufacture and design here
per the tfnsw website: "Based on industry benchmarking, supplier experience and previous train order costs, manufacturing the Regional Rail fleet overseas saves around 25 percent, which will be invested in other infrastructure and services."
And the thing is, if bombardier didn’t exit the bidding process, we would’ve maybe have domestically built trains.
Thank you for the update. I travel on the Wagga/Sydney section every about every three weeks. Including yesterday. I do Wagga to Melbourne occasionally.
Yesterday there was an unusual delay. After Cootamundra (I think) the train slowed down significantly and continued for some distance. I noticed a trailer mounted cherry picker beside the track and assumed that there was a crew working near the track. Not so, there was an announcement that some mongrels had stolen the copper signal cables, so all track lights default to red. I assume that the Driver had to radio Control to get possession of each oncoming sector.
The lack of sleepers is a mistake. These are popular and heavily booked.
A big problem for me on the night train is that the design of the seat rotation mechanism limits leg room in First (I am 1.83m or 6ft). Strangely, there is no such problem in Economy.
Anyway, if the seats are more comfortable and there is the promised WiFi and Power, I will be much happier. The track in NSW has many bad patches.
Kepp up the good work.
Hi Peter, the sleepers may have been popular but they were very heavily subsidised. The additional cost over a standard 1st Class seat was only $80 but instead of over 40 seats of a standard 1st class cabin, you only had 18 sleepers. That’s money that could be spent elsewhere such as hospitals, and during peak travel periods, the standard seats would have been booked solid.
@@ianmondon9441 , seriously ? this is simply deja-vu from introduction of HST.XPT in this country. Sleepers were demanded by the community.
definitely agree with you about the 1st class tall person problem. I am 1.8m. the increased recline on 1st class actually means you stretch out more hence your feet will stretch further so the extra legroom doesn't help and actually feels more cramped than economy. Hence, after realising that, I'm sticking to economy. not worth the extra money if i'm going to be more cramped up.
CAF nowadays is the railway equivalent of Boeing when it comes to build quality
You an add Hitachi to that list, our intercity express trains have cracking issues and Hitachi seem to struggle getting sets out each day, add to that the ones that currently have a diesel only restriction or have engines/gensets out. Plus one of the largest operators of IET's is going to CAF for new stock rather than Hitachi due to cost escalation of new units and the general dissatisfaction with Hitachi. Interestingly it was only because GWR and Hull Trains brought IET's out of the IEP contract that a lot of these issues were properly dealt with as Hitachi could not hide behind the IEP contract on trains that were financed normally.
Alstom/Bombardier are also in the do not buy list, Austria rejected the trains they ordered from Bombardier and brought something else!
In Britain we have carriages/multiple units/trams in service from most European manufacturers (CAF, Hitachi, Stadler/vossloh, Siemens, Adtranz/Bombardier/Alstom, EE/GEC, BREL, Brush, Met-Cam, Ansaldo), so we have a lot of experience and going by that Siemens or Stadler seem to be the way to go, our local station has mainly Siemens units (all that go to London) and they are excellent trains, clearly well built and very reliable.
then why their trams and trains are all over europe? they have 100 years experience in the business of making trains so...
@@aymanla471 Because they’re inexpensive.
Cheap and nasty.
And you'll probably find a lot of brown envelopes changing hands,full of green backs.
Cheap and nasty.
And you'll probably find a lot of brown envelopes changing hands,full of green backs.
Watching this video again, I like they way you provide the overlay of the UK onto NSW. It really emphasises the difference in scale between the two countries and puts travel distances into perspective. You make many valid points.
The news of all this cracking and other issues with CAF trains is an eye-opener for me. The only CAF products I've experienced are the 'AM' class electric multiple units in Auckland, and I haven't been aware of any major issues with them. They're still fairly reliable after nearly ten years of service.
IIRC the only trouble we've had is some problems with the wheels... caused by Kiwirail being pants at maintaining the tracks.
As far as I’m aware; the issues with structural failure has been limited to a few of their families of vehicles.
@@VhenRaTheRaptor Actually a lot of it was due to the ARC mistakenly not specifying for any rotation on the unit bogies.
What happens when don't make in oz!
@@MAte925 Erm I don’t think you’re following the topic here.
In my opinion for a trip of
Have to remember that the V/Locity was based on the Xplorer/Endeavour tractions. A Bi-Mode V/Locity would be fantastic not only for NSW Train Link, but for V/Line on the Gippsland line as well as others.
I see where you’re coming from but I have to disagree. The VLocity’s drawcard is speed, but the CAF units will reach 160 too. They also have underfloor engines and are generally considered inferior to the older N class + coaches for long distance services.
@@thetrainguy4 If we are talking about the Standard Guage V/Locity's they have a Catering car. Are the only ones. The issue with CAF is these new tractions would be built overseas and shipped whereas Alstom have local manufacturing. They make the Vlocity and the 4000 Class at the Dandenong facility.
There is a reason why V/Line is transitioning to them. To me it makes perfect sense to make Bi Mode Vlocity's run on pre existing Xplorer and Endeavour routes. The V/Locity is proven for runs as long as Melbourne to Albury on Standard Guage.
I think rather than have a unproven train try to do what 3 different tractions do to focus the LR for CAF and use an already proven design.
You are joking right, Victoria has the best regional service in Australia, Man i live in a regional Victoria and all i can say is that it is crap give me regional NSW any day of the week, At least there trains run the amount of times i have to get a VLine bus is unbelievable.
@johnshepherd1727 Could this be due to the Regional Rail or Big Build projects?
I agree that service frequency needs to improve, would be nice if the Broad Guage DMU's had catering. Hard to argue about Victoria being best in Australia. I'd argue Victoria is behind NSW; I'd also argue that all the other states need to seriously consider Regional Rail. Victoria has been improving at a faster pace than NSW's, but it's comparing apples to oranges (However, I still stand that the V/Lo is still ideal over CAF short routes).
And to think Utopia was supposed to be a comedy show. They nailed it with the Flying Emu train.
I thought it was a documentary.
Wow thanks for info on new trains. Shows how well the HSTs and XPTs where made.
As a regular customer of NSW Trainlink, I would love to see more videos. Lord knows the staff either don't say or don't know anything.
Maybe they haven’t been updated or can’t say anything as they are not “approved” to make comments. IE you don’t see a constable from NSWPF making comments being interviewed do you ? It’s usually an Inspector or higher.
@@Iwishiwasflying Or they just don't care, because until it's actually on the rails in Australia..... it's anybody's guess.
The NSW Government should have just went with the existing Alstom DMU designs we use in Victoria as the Vlocity sets for the Xplorer/Endevour replacements and fitted the interiors out accordingly, and make any other adjustments as needed. They've proven to be a reliable design that suits most interurban trips pretty well, and I'm sure Alstom could engineer a well designed train for the XPT replacement too.
Not only would these be built in Australia, most likely in Alstom's Dandenong or Ballarat factories, which supports local jobs, but would have probably ended up cheaper in the long run.
@@JackStavris And I assume the Victorian regional services allow bicycles to be rolled on rolled off by the bike owners?
@@grobbosixtyoneyes Thay do
I took an Endeavor to Broken HIll, aside from the fact I could have walked faster, the journey was OK...Oh, except for the seats. So uncomfortable they must have been designed by a scaffolder.
I use the Greater Anglia Stadlers often. And as a wheelchair user I find them superb. In diesel mode they are limited to 125 kmh, but under the wires they can do 160kmh. Acceleration under 25 kv is impressive too. No need for a ramp either due to the low floor design. They were well thought out, and the disabled loos are so easy to use. The class 800s on LNER are not a patch on them, underfloor power means a higher body frame,and the need of assistance is required. The 91s are soldiering on, based at Neville Hill depot.
Unfortunately Stadler did not bid for the tender.
@@danieleyre8913 they maybe too busy for the job.
@@martinbalmforth2665 Whatever the reason: They didn’t enter any bid. I suspect it might be because they looked at the tender and saw that the modifications they would have to make for their standard offerings weren’t worth the effort nor the risk.
125 kmh is a big downgrade from the XPT's 160. How about the Bombardier ALP-45DP?
The problem here - as with the intercity electric fleet - is that Transport for NSW has a split personality. It's good to order trains off the shelf that don't require extensive modifications for local service, and that's a great thing for your commercial people to put out to tender.
The problem is, if the trains can only enter service if they are compliant with the (mostly daft and irrelevant, but nobody has had the courage to go through the rulebook and work out which ones are daft and which ones are sensible) local rulebook, and if they have also buy-in from the RBTU (much of which is based on the rulebook, but they're also quite happy to raise their own concerns for things which aren't covered in the rulebook).
You can't have an enterpreneurial cost-saving spirit in the procurement team if what you procure then gets torn to shreds by the acceptance teams! I don't think realistically we're going to see lighter-touch regulation or the RBTU chilling out in the lifetime of anyone posting here, so at that point you need to accept that the dead hands of regulation and the RBTU are essential, existent facts, and hence need to be factored in from the very first stages of the procurement process, whether you like them or not.
Side point: the anti-CAF stuff here (as opposed to this contract, which has clearly been poorly managed on all sides) is a bit overblown - all rail manufacturers have unsuccessful projects with teething problems. The two-year delay to the Bombardier/Alstom trains for London Crossrail would have been a disaster had the construction delay not been three years! Hitachi have seen similar cracking issues in the UK, etc etc.
Agreed, that one of the concerns was the good record keeping by CAF tells me the government screwed the design brief and they know it.
You complain about good contractor record keeping when they use it to prove you the client keep changing the design and issuing effective variations.
Concur John, the classic example is the RTBU fighting the inclusion of CCTVin the drivers cab. They are always concerned it will be used for ‘disciplinary’ purposes. Yet for me the irony is that you have one person in the cabin driving the train with potentially 300 people on board and drivers make mistakes; go through red lights, miss stops etc but there is no way of digging into the human factors that lead to these mistakes being made. Truck drivers and airline pilots have much higher levels of scrutiny
@@ianmondon9441 From memory,
The government / transport were unwilling to have written down in an unchangeable way that, only in the event of incidences would the footage etc would be used.
Also,
"Potentially 300 people on board" try 1500-2000 people (at absolute max a.k.a "crush" capacity.
Going through "red lights" is not a common occurrence (definitely not daily),
And when this happens the driver is removed from driving duties until an investigation is conducted (including a mandatory drug and alcohol test),
And pending the investigation they may be upskilled, or fired, or given the chance to become a guard.
Missing stops again given the amount of rail movements is not a common occurrence,
As an aside depending on the Airlines own policy:
In Australia a Pilot can have a Blood alcohol level of 0.02 and still be allowed to fly a plane (0.04 in the US from what I can see),
Whereas for a Passenger train driver (in NSW, not sure about the other states) the max allowable limit is.... ZERO
How is maintenance centre being in Dubbo logistically sound? Are there any government document trying to justify this or at least highlighting the obvious deficiencies?
Justified on the grounds of providing regional employment. That got the Nationals on side. I can see future consultants recommending a maintenance base be built in Sydney nearer the centre of their 'network' to improve 'operational efficiency'. I expect by that time the existing XPT maintenance centre at Meeks Rd will be a high-rise apartment complex.
The last Xplorer I caught up to Sydney from Canberra (in 2017 mind you, AFL Grand final day to be exact) got about 10 minutes from Central when the cabin started filling with smoke! The staff were unsure how to respond and just panicked without actually responding/investigating properly. The cabin Air conditioner unit had been making a bunch of noise prior to this, so I suspect a compressor failure or similar.
What I am saying is these trains have needed replacing for 7 years at least! If only the NSW Govt wasn't so short sighted, and actually invested in improving the service/making it a more attractive alternative to driving, as currently it takes about 2 hours longer on the train (4.5 vs. 2.5) to get from Canberra to Central, with only 3 services offered per day (which are almost always full).
Replacement was a Nationals promise 9 years ago. They faffed about for ages, and the Libs finally ordered something from O/S. This explains why failed trains are going to have to be dragged to Dubbo for repair, rather than this being central somewhere around Sydney. No doubt SSR will be happy.
Different topic, there should be a new bridge between Bomaderry and Nowra. Maybe extend to Bega (long shot yes).
As a NSW retired railwayman .... no way will the Shoalhaven River be crossed with a new railway bridge ,,,,, dozens of Per way etc looking into this .... WILL NOT HAPPEN today ......... sadly .
For the life of me I can not understand how the train terminates on the wrong side of the river.
To go to Bega the trains really need to run a _whole_ lot faster. Something that should be a target everywhere.
Leave it to the Coalition to completely stuff up a train build project.
When we have a number train manufacturers in Australia which are familiar with our conditions, requirements and punishing environment, and deliver trains quicker and cheaper, yet the Coalition insists on throwing good money after bad on trains from India, Spain, etc.
We “did have” a number of train manufacturing facilities. However they have all gone by the wayside. Clyde/Granville manufacturing = gone.
Pretty sure Comeng = gone
@Iwishiwasflying Comeg went under around 20 years ago. Pretty sure their last orders before ceasing were some of the Tangaras
@@ClamTram96 Try more like over 30 years ago. In 1990 their remaining assets were sold off to ABB.
And the Tangara’s weren’t very good, and were the only things they ever built that weren’t at least 5 years behind the times technologically.
Try living in the present and not in the past.
The only entirely Australian rolling stock manufacturers still around today are Downer EDI & UGL. And it's been a long time since either undertook their own independent procurement project, Downer have had to do their last few projects as joint consortium’s.
Leave it to Labor to stuff up things for it was Labor that chose Germany to make a new boiler for 3801 when it could have been done by Ipswich Railway Workshops who put in a tender to do the boiler but they weren't as cheap as Germany. The people at Thirlmere were on hand to give advice but not good enough for Labor who employed consultants who ignored the real experts at Thirlmere and got they dimensions horribly wrong resulting in a cylinder of steal that fits nothings. Liberal Labor it doesn't matter for they're as incompetent as each other.
Neither party want's a regional rail system but they do it for the "green" vote. This explains why most Australians including me drive in regional areas and I'm a railway enthusiast.
Thank you for an excellent presentation of the issues related to the new regional trains.
I’ve liked and subscribed.
In Canada, VIA rail ordered the US Siemens "Venture" heavy steel trains. The project is late and VIA did start recently to accept trains. A couple of trains were in "service" but still onwed by Siemens until problems would be fixed. Amtrak has also had probems and delays.
The problem with "made in america" is that it isn't just where it is built, but the neeed to swap all components that were alreadt tested to work and put in untested "made in USA" components. Essentially a new train with new components (and because of FRA regulatiosn with less performance).
Australia ordering from CAF in spain is in a way smart because the goal is to get trains that work provide service instead of providing temorary jobs in Australia and having to cope with all the delays of starting production etc.
A lot of the issues such as seat pitch and interior fittings are customer problems, not CAF baseline train problems. If union discovers the cab conrols is not t their liking late into project, it is the union's problem for either not looking into it earlier or just accepting more modern cabs. (there are european standards for controls because or ERTMS so that cabs in european trains become more and more standard).
That no accomodation was made for overnight service is very strange considering 2 main links make sense as overnight trains. (and the fact that sleeping car acocmodation is hard to get on existing services because demand > supply. Same for having under-coach diesel motors for SYL-MEL and SYD-Brisbane. That doesn't work for overnight or all day train service.
Since there is more demand for the short range train that are higher frequency and fewer cars, having DMUs can be justified. And I am guesssing the governement figured it was simpler to ride on the same order for the long distance versions and still use DMUs. (but not quite such as DMUs can be hybrid though? 1 pantograph for each car?)
The "union problem" would be the Liberals not including them in the process. Look at the $billions wasted on Korean garbage, now on scrap roads all around greater Sydney. If they had consulted unions on the spec, I am sure the build quality issues would have been resolved by now (on average one significant fault per carriage), and they would be in service.
Thanks for such a comprehensive video on the NSW Trains replacement fleet.
Corruption is now a global pandemic.
Broken Hill is certainly not short range! Probably longer than Sydney to Melbourne!
By 250km and some.
What an awesome choice. Could have gone to Bonbadier to be manufactured in Melbourne using rolling stock that are already proven in Victoria, using Australian labour - but nope, off to Spain!
No they couldn’t have “gone to Bombardier”.
Because Bombadier had to withdraw their tender bid. Because they were going bankrupt as a company.
It was either CAF or the same Downer/CRRC consortium that made a dogs breakfast of the Waratah EMU’s.
We’ll have to see how the Civity’s eventuate. You might be surprised.
thanks for the video. As a victorian train enthusiast i didn’t know much about what was going on other than the fact that they were delayed.
however i am not impressed by the fact that these trains have been ordered off the shelf, will have no sleeper cabins and will have a DMU design that is not fit for an 11 hour journey.
Here in Victoria, we used to have a problem with ordering rollingstock off the shelf about 20 years ago, our C & D class trams were ordered off the shelf from France and Germany respectively and are not fit for Melbourne at all: the C class trams wobble at high speed and have uncomfortable seats whereas the D class have a general lack of seating. As for trains, our X’Trapolis 100 and Siemens Nexas trains were ordered from the same countries and had/have problems with braking, bad riding and bad cab design.
We have since overcome that problem and now order our trains and trams customised for Melbourne/Victoria.
Our VLocity trains are a proven and reliable DMU rail car type that would be comfortable for 2 hour journeys. They could be ordered by NSW and used on your intercity lines to places like Goulburn and Bathurst.
I read that Melbourne's C class trams were originally supposed to be operated in southern France instead, with the tram operator having operations in both areas
@@lzh4950 this where the C2s not the original ones
Comming from a British (with some European Experience), Whilst electrification of the intercity routes is probably a good idea, electrification fo the new routes would probably need to be done as a 25Kv AC installtion for the greater distances involved, with the trains themselves being "Dual Current" running from both the newer AC and older 1.5KvDC on existing corridors (like what is done on some Eurostar, TGV, and other european stock. Even UK has many Dual Current trains switchign from 700V DC Third Raid to 25,000V AC from Overhead cables, even on the move. And yes its possible even for a High Speed train, as the Eurostar Class 373 when originally built easily switched from 700V DC Third rail (in the UK), 1500V DC overhead (regional french) and 25kv AC on the high speed LGVs, and were able to switch on the move.
Best video I've seen on the new regional fleet and I 100% agree with you.
As an ex-PRINCE2 practitioner watching the whole project has been puzzling. This is a project and yet the information website has not, for the past two years, and still does not, have a project timeline. I have asked via the contact form for the timeline - what is in between right now and the sets being in service.
Their last response (24/11/2023) was "Production of the new Regional Rail trains is underway with nine trains currently on the production line in Spain. The timeline for their delivery will be confirmed once the manufacturing testing and assurance phase is complete."
Which tells me nothing. Once delivered, then what steps?
A project is time-bound and for multi-billion dollar project to have no public timeline is not good project management. For those not familiar with PRINCE2 it is a well-respected widely-used project management methodology demanded and developed by the UK government to address both time and money overruns in large infrastructure projects.
I am a regular regional train customer. What I want to know is when the trains will be in revenue service.
Thanks for the video and your efforts to uncover the project status.
Great video! There are definitely concerns with the delivery, however TfNSW under the Liberal government was very much aiming for fleet standardisation as much as possible and I believe that's one often overlooked reason for the CAF bid selected. The NRF could in theory have 3 layouts and one maintenance stream reducing (in theory) ongoing maintenance costs.
One thing missed in the video is the maintenance centre being located at Dubbo with the need for long transfers and secondary minor maintenance facilities in Sydney or elsewhere. Add to that what is essentially a one for one fleet replacement scheme as well when the XPT fleet has only one spare power car, not to mention not have spare endeavour and Explorer replacements when they need to transfer to Dubbo.
On another note ONRSR (the independent, national industry safety regulator) has been highlighting in many of its reports the need for in cab cameras for many years now. These provide important post-incident information to investigators and are standard all the world over and its a shame to see this feature removed. Having in cab cameras is also a very fast way to exonerate the driver from any possible incident, particularly if there is a reason the driver cannot be interviewed after the incident.
The union will always reject in cab cameras for fear they will be used against the driver. Much of the problems experienced with the introduction of new rolling stock is union based. I fear these new trains will be a repeat of the Dset debacle.
Already have cameras on the front of the train, and the data loggers give you a pretty complete picture of crews actions. If in-cab cameras aren't required for aircraft, we don't need them on trains. I could however get behind driving cab voice recorders, only accessible by the ATSB in the instance of serious incidents.
@@lachlancannard in cab cameras are being used world wide and there aren't massive job losses due to in cab cameras in Japan or Europe. Buses do have driver cameras without audio. Front of train cameras record track workers and lessons are learned from these interactions (again without massive job losses), station staff are recorded (again without massive job losses). Are these staff second class to train drivers and guards? Audio isn't really required as an safeworking communication is recorded on the phone to the signaller. At the end of the day a train driver can be responsible for up to 1,000 people. If there's something in cab vision post incident can tell us to ensure we correctly address the root cause, then so be it. The recommendation for an in cab cameras hasn't come from a political faction or party, it is a safety recommendation. Yes there needs to be guard rails around it, no one can deny that.
The lack of XPT spares can be addressed by buying Class 43s - there are even V16 MTU re-engined ones.
But how comfortable would the seats be for a trip from Sydney to Melb ? Since there are NO Sleepers. Which is a joke.
More comfortable than the current seats. I've heard rumours that a few XPTs will be retained to run sleepers, we'll see what becomes of that I guess.
Hopefully they will have a set at Central so the Public can have a walk through.
There’s video of the interior of second class. Looks very nice. The interiors look fine imho, I’m sceptical of the ride quality and vibrations though.
Would be good to have a test run with passengers from Sydney to Melb & return to get a real time response from actual passengers. Could you they refurbish some of the Sleepers to ad to train. Change outside colours to match new XPTs ?
Here in the US Amtrak has had problems with CAF. In 2010 Amtrak placed an order for 130 "Viewliner" cars to be delivered over a 5 year period. So, how long did it take for CAF to kick out 130 cars you ask? Eleven years with the last car being handed over to Amtrak in August 2021. During the production run Amtrak had to issue several "stop work" orders to CAF account defects and poor quality of construction. The original contract called for an option for an additional 70 cars but after all the problems and delays Amtrak decided to not exercise the option. I suspect CAF is probably on Amtrak's Never Again list.
The Siemens Amtrak Airo train sets you mentioned are just the Americanized version of the OBB Railjet Ventura cars. Cars of this type are already in service in Florida with Brightline as well as Amtrak routes out of Chicago and California. Yes there were some initial problems with the Chicago based train cars but they have for the most part been corrected. In Canada VIA rail has also ordered trainsets from Siemens for use on it's eastern routes. As far as I know VIA has had no problems with the new trains the first of which is now in service between Montreal and Toronto.
The Airo train sets ordered for NEC service will be 8 cars long. The first car will feature an pantograph and a transformer for Head End Power (HEP) for HVAC, lights and other electrical needs as well as providing power to the traction motors on the Charger diesel locomotive. At stations were the wires end the diesel will be started up and the pantograph lowered. This will take much less time than the current change of locomotives does. One thing to mention is that Siemens built the new sleepers for the OBB NightJet fleet. Like the RailJet cars these cars could be modified to run with the Airo trainsets as there has been calls to restore sleeping car service between Washington and Boston.
The first of the new Siemens train sets is supposed to enter service in late 2025 in the Pacific northwest between Portland and Vancouver on the Cascadia service. The NEC trainsets will follow shortly there after.
BTW - what ever happened to Railpage? They've been down since October. They were my main way of keeping up on rail info down under. They have deleted all their pages on Facebook. I hope they're not gone for good ...
To clarify, VIA's Siemens trains operate currently most trips on the Ottawa-Montréal-Québec route, and there are one or two sets each on the Toronto-Montréal and Toronto-Ottawa routes. They seem to be operating without issue, though the start of service was later than originally planned, which has resulted in train shortages as older trains are retired without replacements (most of the old fleet has structural issues, and some coaches are as much as 75 years old).
Amtrak did briefly restore sleeper service between Washington and Boston in 2021 but cancelled it again in 2022. The distance is a bit short for a sleeper train, but it could be useful for trips that continue on to Virginia.
I think Railpage is in fact gone, unfortunately.
If I recall correctly the issues in the Midwest were due to snow, so not much to worry about there. I’ve travelled on Via’s sets and they were very nice.
The server apparently blew up. the org au site is borked. twitter is yeah, a facebook page is still up with only some news stories
It's going to be interesting to see how these trains are allocated now that Sydney Trains will be taking over some of NSW Trainlink areas and rail stock
It makes you think twice, imagine the Sydney to Melbourne 12 hours sitting in a seat its bad enough today on the XPT were you need a chiropractor after 1 journey....the whole idea of train travel is its suppose to be comfortable, affordable, accessible, in car dining service & sleeper option ... this is impractical on ever level...buses are looking very appealing maybe someone needs to get the jump on this with sleeper & airline style buses
Well-researched and - to me at least - great new insights. Thanks.
It would be wonderful if the future passenger stock did run at speeds up to 200 kph. But, and it’s a big but, the trackwork and the gradients encountered in regional NSW is not up to the task of providing safe passage at these speeds. The intercity route between Sydney, Gosford and Newcastle stills runs on the same amount of time as the steam era. I have measured the speed of passenger services doing less than 60 kph between Hornsby and Woy Woy. Freight services frequently slow down the progress of passenger services. It will be interesting to see how compatible high speed rail passenger services mix with much lower speed freight services given the reduced infrastructure of loops on country tracks.
Andrew, the regional tracks operated by ARTC will rarely allow operation of trains at high speed. Their track standard is based around serving freight trains and not higher speed passenger services. Additionally they are not funded to raise the standard. It cost the Victorian Government over $300M to improve the standard of the line between Melbourne and Albury which allowed trains to reliably travel at track speeds. If they want to keep the track to that standard, ARTC will need ongoing funding, a point they have made to the Victorians
@@ianmondon9441 Yes, I agree. You are right, unfortunately. How come other countries do have spectacular passenger services? Why can’t we change the present regime, even if it is only some areas only? Is Change not allowed? Adding additional passenger track could be one solution. We once had a ridiculous situation with 3 different gauges operating on the mainland. Gradually this changed slowly, some say glaciers move faster than the railway industry.
You know who has had success with Long distance, train building? Downer in Maryborough. Electric tilt trains running since 1998, and diesel to Cairns from 2003.
building in-house costs more money than shifting the work overseas
@@camboi6103that’s what the initial sticker price would suggest, but time after time the cost and time blowouts and legal disputes with the OS manufacturers always ends up with a locally manufactured product being cheaper in the long run.
Downer’s most recent product for NSW are the Waratah EMU’s. They are pretty rubbish.
Are they designed to withstand hitting kangaroos? Was once on thr XPT to Melbourne and we it a Kangaroo. It completely ripped out vital controls from the front Motor. Had to run purely on the back motor from the remainder of the trip.
No news on the Dorrigo steam train collection and branch line from Glenreagh
Thanks for the comprehensive overview. I really enjoyed your fact based discussion.
I was on the Newcastle line and it was a newer train the doors wouldn't close for 15 mins! 45 mins into the trip passengers were told there was track problems and everyone was to take a school like bus.!
When people who are good with spreadsheets, are allowed to make decisions....... without talking to people in the industry....
Just like the newest Ferries.......
I dont inow if it's just me.. But these honestly do look almost identical to the MK5s - But obviously with the ability to power itself without requiring a loco on one end.
If the issues you lot are experiencing, as well ws the many, MANY issues we've had with literally every single CAF design the UK has ever received, you lot are in big trouble. We still to this day experience occasional problems with the 195s and 331s, although the 196 and 197 seem to have faired much better.
That being said though, it was CAF taking over the depot facilities at Chester to maintain the 197s from Alstom that then caused the 175 Coridia units to start failing and catching fire in their droves, leading to the entire class being withdrawn early, and no operator wanting them.
Some real head scratching choices there. DMUs for long haul make no sense. As you mentioned, the Siemens Charger and venture cars would work much better. And as for sleeper cars, Siemens has the NightJet cars from Austria which are in the same family as the Venture cars (Venture is just an Americanized RailJet car). The pantograph/cab car that Amtrak is going to use would work well as a dual mode solution for Australia as well. The Aus goverment and unions constantly demanding design changes isn't helping either.
This is the New South Wales government and Unions not the Australian one. Australian government has no say in how the states administer their transport. Which is why Australia has 3 different rail gauges lol
These are DEMU's and not DMU's like the Endeavour, Xplorer, hunter railcar and the vlocity. The power units are in the bogie areas and not directly under the passenger compartment. Being bi modal is important because it allows the trains to use the overhead on some of our steepest grades around Sydney. The electric traction removes the gearbox whine you get on the other 4 trains that I mentioned when accelerating. I really have no idea what he is going on about in regards to heat because you don't notice it in any of those trains especially with the more powerful air conditioning units we have.
Overseas shouldn't have even been considered for these but the previous nsw coalition governement was intent on closing down unionised workforces in NSW. What should have happened is that UGL or EDI in the newcastle area in NSW bee given orders since both have experience in building these types of train sets in Australia. Both could easily have built bi modal trains as they make diesel and electric trains and the power units being used would have been available to these 2 companies as well.
If the hunter line was electrified to maitland what rolling stock would you run on it, if you got rid of the endeavours? You cant get rid of the hunter cars because they serice scone and dungog. They didnt order enough NERF's to go around.
Overall i found your video informative and quite accurate.
Some very good content in this video.
The super reliable XPT always was and always will be a great train. Think when the trains arrive, we are going to say, hmmmm not as good as the XPT....
My experience with the XPT between Sydney and Melbourne in the last 2 months is anything but reliability. I feel their age is catching up with them
As frequent user of the Canberra Sydney XPT and Kiama to Berry sets, reliability and on time service was not my first thought.
Extreme noise, both diesel and creaking, vibration, slow speed, poor layout and ugly design is.
XPT’s “great” and “super-reliable”?!
I take it you don’t take many train trips?
Just took the Explorer, the XPT's sister train from Moss Vale to Canberra last Monday.
*Over one and half hours late* with a string of wildly varying arrival times. No-one could give an accurate time or explanation, so couldn't leave the platform to even get a coffee.
My wife was just supposed to catch the Sydney to Canberra today midday. Just rang me. Derailment, so onto the awful bus replacement service...
....again.
Similar to 38 years ago when the XPT's arrived and we said...hmmmm not as good as the Syd/Mel Express, the Southern Aurora, the Spirit of Progress or the Intercapital Daylight.
if we built them in Newcastle, they would be in service by now
Weren't most the trains built at Downer 'shell built in China, finished in Newcastle'? At least I know the most recent ones were
@@the_clawing_chaos should build the whole thing in Newcastle
On what basis do you say that?
The Waratah’s weee built there and they were late.
@@danieleyre8913 nah there shells were built overseas. And don't get me started on the new intercity D fleet.
@@electro_sykes The problems with the Waratah trains are the internal fit outs. Poor quality of workmanship, air conditioning that doesn’t work properly (if it works at all), doors that fail, etc.
Darn, if only they'd gone with a hyperloop instead.
....
...💀
P.s. have a like and subscribe, you asked at the end like a true gentleman
Why hasn’t Australia got high speed trains like the ones in Japan, China, Europe? We seem to be doing our best to stick chug a lugs .
There’s a report that should be coming out soon
This cracking issue sounds like they won't last long on the extremely rough outer lines. Also yet again going with trains that can do 160km/h while *still* refusing to improve any of the rail up to that level :(
They're disputing with the ARTC over who owns what track for the most part.
The cracking issue hasn’t affected any trains of the Civity class which these will be a model of.
@@danieleyre8913the difference is that Australia has shotty trackage.
@@Baxiljn How do you know that Spain doesn’t also?
That was a nice video our friend! Cheers! (Dave).
Stadler wanted to build their locomotives for this contract in Unanderra, local jobs, local steel... Which doesn't crack.
Well done very informative and I couldn't agree more👍
They should have just bought diesel tilt trains from downer in QLD
Huh! Did you say from 2:35 that these new trains will have both pantographs and underfloor diesel engines?
Yes
Yeah, they are bimodes.
You run on electric mode while overhead power is available and then switch to diesel when you get past it.
This isn't that uncommon nowadays.
Rail equipment that can operate on both electric and diesel is actually a lot more common than people realize.
All three commuter railroads here in NYC have them to access the manhattan terminal stations, which ban pure diesel powered trains due to lack of proper ventilation.
The GE P32-ACDM (Metro-North and Amtrak) and the EMD DM-30AC (Long Island Rail Road) both have Diesel and third rail systems, while the Bombardier ALP-45DP (New Jersey Transit) has diesel and overhead capacity.
The first two will be replaced by the Siemens SC-42DM, a diesel/3rd rail version of their “selling like hotcakes” Charger locomotives.
The losing bid had a diesel power car, and was not a DMU.
With the repeated failures and withdrawal of regional airlines services, regional rail is so important. Can't we use some foresight and pre-emptive design improvements to prevent the cracks that plague past trains from this manufacturer? Surely design changes gotta be cheaper than accepting this fleet and have to retire them
Delay is new normal so as cost blowout! Look at the Sydney Metro extension which has just opened last month. $10 billion over budget is just around double of the initial price. Pacific Hwy Upgrade incl lots of duplication was around $15 billions.
No sleeper cars, that probably a big mistake for long haul travels as people will just op for driving or flying if they’re force to sit upright for the whole travel
And now in August, they're set to start testing on the 6th of September according to a railsafe document
Yeah I saw. I might try and film some of it if I’m free.
is it just me or is this video really quiet? I've had to pump up the volume to the point where the adds a ludicrously loud to get the video loud enough to hear properly?
That would be you
What other trains aside from the Siemens would be an alternative for Long Range rail?
Also spot on with the electrification expansion!!!
Just two days ago on 15 Feb 2024 I saw one of the new trains being towed by a loco through Epping Station. The distinctive orange livery made me notice it. Unfortunately I have only just seen this video so didn't really know what I was seeing until now.😊
I don’t think you did. There is only one and it’s being moved to Dubbo by truck…
Still not enough cars to allow for more services like a twice a day service to dubbo or even onto parkes and there could have used some of these sr sets to provide a few extra services like a early morning tamworth to newcastle service or even a griffith to junee shuttle to allow people to meet the train at junee for both melbourne and sydney services.
But that of course means more staff and we cant have that
@@qjtvaddict the issue is many lines date back to the steam age and would take billions to fix.
A jr company came out mid 2000 and gave a proposal for high speed rail but like normal the gov sat on its hand and they walked away.
Plus they need more sets to allow more shuttle services like twice a day newcastle to tamworth instead of once a day.
Daily service junee to griffith and junee to cootamundra but just need to update some platforms on the coota to griffith line.
Could do daily parkes service by running 2 sets to orange and spilt there or stand alone orange to broken hill but of course they wont do anything like this
That’s a good idea a Seaman train travelling from Melbourne to Sydney with sleeping accommodation.
CAF have a fairly solid reputation in Europe with their trains running in many countries with few complaints, the delivery date of the sets kept changing due to Covid in Europe which meant many industries closed down, CAF was not exempt from that, and thus assembly parts and staffing levels at the factories became an issue. Australia has a more unique and rugged, not to mention "antique" rail system when you leave the environs of Sydney so the CAF sets need to be different for Australian conditions than "off the shelf" European sets. Australian train manufacture has dropped away to virtually zero, the majority of trains "built" here are actually from kits imported from the parent company in 20 and 40 foot containers with the external bodywork and interior built here. The Victorian "Vlocity" sets may have been a better option but the NSW state government went with CAF. The NSW state government has a very poor record when it comes to ordering new passenger rolling stock and lack of consultation with stakeholders and the union, not to mention political interference/favouritism (building the depot at Dubbo NSW).
It seems more like the constant changes ordered by the corresponding authority keeps delaying the trains. All railway manufacturers have issues, but CAF has thousands of units in operation across the world with no problems.
I think regional travellers would prefer the trains on the lines, operating, rather than “just in the media”!
@thetrainguy4 hi there I’m a train fan I understand your idea for the Siemens charger as are new government has plans to get Australian made transport it may be more suitable to keep the xpt coaches and buy a modified freight locomotive from ugl and add a generator to power the coaches and to replace xplorer and endeavour I suggest a modified version of the hunter valley railcar
If the first deliveries are to arrive in NSW in Q1 2024 as stated , logic tells us they should be either on the ship or about to be shipped very soon , what are the chances? .. the saying “ Buckleys and no chance “ springs to mind .
The saying is,Buckley's and none.
Typical bungle from the former LNP government, they never could get public transport orders right, for them it was always about saving money and going with the cheapest possible tenders. I'm not a fan of this new design
At least LNP actually plan for stuff
no they can't, the NBN is a prime example of their incompetence or more likely carelessness and complete disregard for what Australians need for a better future, LNP bungle almost everything for transport to healthcare and hospitals etc @@Firedogies
History shows both parties have infrastructure failures. Last Labor NSW Gov had nothing done. Almost no new transport links, no new roads, a shockingly embarrassing train network. Liberal came in and did a great job the first 1-2 terms of government, then really started to disappoint with cheap-skating infrastructure such as with the NIF project, new regional fleet and new road interchanges. I guess their idea is “get as much done as possible to impress, but it’ll be too expensive in-house.”. Labor prefers in-house built infrastructure, which is far more costly and is subject to a lot of battle with unions, therefore bugger all gets done and huge debt applied.
So what is
Labor 😂doing now
other then stuck with this mess? everything they can to help the average Australian. labor isn't perfect but they are better then the LNP, no idea why people white knight for a party that consistently screws up on purpose to help big business, which i am sure you aren't. @@simonf8902
Need a less gaudy colour, also some sleeping accommodation and a decent restaurant.
"short regional trains" and its going to broken hill 🧐
Shorter than the longest units. The trains are questionable but their names aren’t lmao
In Brussels we've been lucky I guess. The M6 and M7 metro trains make up a significant portion of our metro network's fleet and they've been fairly reliable.
Bomaderry could be served by a dedicated Illawarra line bi-mode fleet, which would eliminate the change at Kiama. My question is how often the new LR trains will need re-fueling and how long will that take? Whilst running under electric power to and from Broadmeadow will extend the range on north coast and Brisbane services, they surely can't run the entire trip on 1 tank of fuel. Presently the XPT re-fuels one power car each way to Casino and Brisbane and then the other car on the return service. Will the new trains do 3 cars each way, with the consequent delay. How will Melbourne services be impacted? (I am presuming that NSW TrainLink are concerned about journey times.)
I have a hunch the Bomaderry shuttle may be extended to Wollongong and perhaps a few specials to Sydney.
I should hope fueling is not an issue on the Melbourne run, not so sure about Brissy.
Refuelling is available for the XPT on platform 1 at Southern Cross so this could be modified for the CAF trains.
Should be no Bomaderry shuttle, the line should be electrified extended into Nowra.
I think a huge problem here is what we call regional services and what the Europeans call "regional" services are *totally* different. The European idea of a regional service is essentially our Intercity services... and for that *maybe* the CAF design would work. But Brisbane? Melbourne? Broken Hill? In a DMU? Absolute insanity.
I think the best bet would have been to go with conventional loco hauled rolling stock, with a hybrid locomotive fleet, with proper sleeping cars and a buffet car. These could easily be built locally, with just the locos imported, and they'd be simple, rugged and long lasting. Essentially, just make a new XPT, but with a bigger fleet. We need sleeper service for sustainable, acessible travel. I travel SYD-BNE quite a lot, and I don't want to fly. Ideally we'd have Euro style high speed rail on that corridor, but since we don't, sleeper trains are our work-around solution.
Having loco hauled stock would also allow the possibility of adding autorail/car carriers, which is a good revenue earner, and offers a huge convenience factor for passengers, and a big selling point for long distance services over flying.
What could go worse? Cracks developing in the frames, and then being retired prematurely.
Bring back the U sets, still my favourite train I have travelled on
uh huh, yep, that'll be just great
Why not to order from Siemens or Stadler? The best trains I ever travelled on
Because they never submitted any bid for the tender is why not.
Is caf the same people that built the Sydney trams that cracked???
Yes the same company.
They’ve also built thousands of other railways vehicles used all over world.
If anything they should order the CAF trains raw, and do all the working on the interiors
That's quite literally how it works. The interior design is decided by the customer, aka the government.
I love the qld rail tilt train. They can go up to 200km however Australia’s hot climate doesn’t allow for it so they had to slow the speed down after a few derailments. There’s the Bundaberg service the Rockhampton tilt train then the diesel cairns tilt train. The last one has a shower in the car you have toilets and a baby change table. There is plenty of room even in economy reclining seats with space (im tall) and video viewing of movies that change monthly. This also has a live feed from the front of the train that shows train speed.
There’s USB ports for phones radio and free internet included. It does have some dropout zones.
The sleepers are large comfort chairs that recline with more leg room. The business class has further leg room individual screens on back of chairs leather seats foot rest charge points radio also with headphones multiple channels a travel blanket you can keep and a blow up neck pillow. Meal carts come to you as the speeds mean walking can be dangerous and not recommended unless necessary. I’ve been on the cairns tilt train and the Rockhampton tilt train. The tickets are expensive but with the service you receive it’s worth the cost. 10/10. Beats the old trains.
The current NSW long distance train to Brisbane I’ve had issues with allergic reactions due to dust mites. Although I’ve been on it several times and enjoyed it the experience is nothing like the tilt train.
The tilt train from memory were 2nd hand refurbished to suit QLD rail tracks including the gage of the tracks with the chassis. Purchased from Japans old fleet. The Rockhampton tilt train was the first of its fleet announced in 1996. Only coming a few years later. There was fireworks when it arrived for its maiden voyage from Brisbane to arrive home for service in Rockhampton. Despite a few run ins derailments and idiots not giving way on Denison street train line which runs through the centre of town down the middle of the road it’s been very successful. I would love to see NSW new trains but if it’s got faults in the steal frames there no way I. He’ll I’d consider it. I’ve seen 30 seconds to disaster.
The tilt trains are nice and I’d love to go on one someday. A few things though.
Every long distance train has toilets etc. The XPTs (and most sleepers) have showers too.
Buffets are vastly superior to a trolley service and I call BS on the unsafe to walk thing. They just want more space for seats.
They were built new in Rockhampton iirc.
@@thetrainguy4 I’m going from memory my father worked in the store as a store clerk for QLD rail at Rockhampton
So why weren't they wholy built in Australia for Australia?.
I've heard it said that the then government was opposed to unions philosophically ('let's not give them any more power!') and so started buying trains. off-shore.
An excellent video revealing public policy fiasco. To complete the "charge sheet" you might consider making a companion video on the commissioning and ultimate suppression of the McNaughton Report on Faster Regional Rail for NSW. Another failing of the tender process is simply not ordering enough trains to cope with current and likely future demand. The three times each way a day Sydney-Canberra service is running at over 90 percent capacity. Services are regularly booked out days or weeks in advance. The ACT Government is lobbying for extra capacity - longer trains and more of them. With a bit of foresight the Canberra-Sydney service would comfortably support six-eight trips each way everyday rather than the current three. But there just isn't the rolling-stock. The extent of the planning disaster outlined in the video raises the prospect of some sort of federal bail-out to set things right. Otherwise rail travelers are condemned for another decade or more of substandard and inadequate services.
The McNaughten report is a fantastic idea for a video, I’ll definitely do that soon!
When will they run if ever ? They will be antiques soon.
Another train built overseas. It should have been a contractual condition that these trains would be built in Australia by Australians.
Corruption is now a global pandemic.
100? but only 23 from CAF did the others pull out?
110 odd carriages forming far fewer trains
I understand that that when the order was placed, it was for the basic shells (to get a place on the production queue), and for the fit out to be decided "in due course". Now that it has got to that stage, the costs of this work have increased considerably to what was indicated initially. Along with TfNSW changing its mind about what it wants, it appears CAF is milking them for every dollar it can.
Why jump to that conclusion?
I would think the more likely explanation is that Australian workshops are already at capacity trying to make the intercity fleet work.
You may well have been misinformed. The tender responses required detailed, dimensioned layouts and computer generated 3D modelling. TfNSW knew exactly what had been offered. Normally, during negotiations with the preferred tenderer, any changes to the offer are discussed, price and schedule impacts provided, and, eventually the contract is inked. Many major changes were requested after the contract was awarded. Rumour has it that the composition of various stakeholders changed after contract award leading to new demands. If that is true, then TfNSW are responsible for the ensuing mess.
Perhaps broken hill and Griffith services could be expanded to daily with their being more Short regionals than the Xplorers
Personally I would like to see a sleeper to Adelaide but any expansion to either of those is highly unlikely
Agreed
Great video
Our tracks are too old and poorly maintained to allow high speed running.
I do think tilting trains could be a stop gap measure to at least get decent average speeds.
Today's services are a joke.
We certainly need comfortable seats at the moment as it takes so bloody long to get anywhere .
Thanks for your informative article
.Definitely gets you thinking.
I love trains .
They are overlooked in this country as a viable solution for passenger and freight .
And we still don’t have the interurban sets on line yet.
Surely thy just use modified VLocity Sprinter trains from Victoria which are also built in Australia
No they can’t. Bombardier withdrew their bid for the tender.
The LNP has FAILED - No Sleepers?
I wonder if the cars parked just outside Lithgow are the CAP cars?
As a kid, I saw the first XPT come through Bathurst in about 1983. They were seen as the future, and they are still in, 40 years later, so I guess they were right! So often we see govt decisions take the cheapest option which ends up being the slowest and most expensive. I really hope they get this sorted so regional NSW has a half decent rail network.
The trains in Lithgow Yard are the new intercity trains for electric, short services.
Another example of an oversea design not accounting for Local requirements. Similar examples are Perth C-Series, Mariyung, x'trapolis 2.0 and I’m guessing Queensland QMT project will seen the same delay and cost blowouts.
It's up to the government body to get the requirements correct and watertight when they draw up the tender. A manufacturer is only liable if their bid wins but their product doesn't meet requirements.
Agree but the governments are back into a corner due to the delayed delivery schedule to accept inferior non-comforting product to get something on tithe tracks. They can only maintain their aging fleets so long.
@@shaggydog9767 If the product delivered does not meet specification; TfNSW would have grounds for cancelling the contract and getting compensation from the supplier. Or (in the case of uncomfortable furniture); grounds to force the supplier to refit with better furniture at their own cost.
No apology offered: You have no grounds yet to declare that the finished product will be "inferior" nor "non-comforting". But the NSW government is backed into a corner, but that is their own fault for having such an incompetent procurement process. nd not just for these trains but also the intercity fleet contract with Hyundai-Rotem (who unlike CAF have a good reputation). Had they done it properly; these things would've already been in service for a couple of years, poor quality or not.
@@danieleyre8913 Time to live in the real word. When did you hear of a government cancelling a contract? The list of concession grate to modern supply contracts is excessive even given some of the requirement are out dated.
@@shaggydog9767 Heed your own advice. You’re the one here who treats his own speculation as somehow fact.
NSW TrainLink (or whoever ordered these trains) should've chose Bombardier instead, it's so much better and I'm sure cracks won't plague them within the first 5 years of service!
Bombardier don’t make trains anymore and never made trains appropriate for these operations
Except, the Bombardier Transportation doesn’t exist anymore, it was sold off to Alstom three years ago.
@@nickstransportvlogs never heard about that...
@@thetrainguy4
They did before, like the second series of the Superliners for Amtrak.
And the LRCs that Via Rail in Canada operate, although the LRC locomotives aren’t in use anymore, only the carriages are still running.
You know who has had success with Long distance, train building? Downer in Maryborough. Electric tilt trains running since 1998, and diesel to Cairns from 2003.
I'm no expert but what is wrong with the Hitachi units they are using on the GWR in England
Underfloor engines and cracking bogies.
@@thetrainguy4 Under floor engines do not necessarily equate to a hot and noisy carriage (though compared to an electric train there is noise, just not unbearable / uncomfortable)
@@thetrainguy4The cracks were I believe between the lifting mounts and the bogie not the structural bogie itself. However underfloor engines are terrible for noise and vibration.
Great video, I hold great fears for these trains the CAF moniker "Cheap A F" is the obvious reason the previous government got them involved in so many projects.
I do believe the extension of the electrification is a far better solution but that would mean those lines would be subject to the just as bad NIF design another of the past government failures.
CAF do generally make cheaper, more basic, not so technologically advanced, models of rolling stock. And they are known to be a bit on the dodgy side.
But while certain models of trains they have made in recent years have had design flaws and cracks in bodies appearing: The vast majority of the rolling stock that CAF have made over the decades for operators across the world have been at least adequate and have done the job. They’re also one of the remaining rolling stock manufacturers who are willing to put in bids for smaller rolling stock tenders (such as this one) which the industry giants such as Alstom, Hitachi, Siemens and the now former Bombadier, do not bother with.
We’ll just have to see how these trains eventuate as. Maybe they will also develop big cracks (which would be the first Civity model based trains that do) or maybe they’ll be fine. But it should be noted that the disasters in this project thus far have much more to do with the useless NSW government than with CAF.
I had the same theory about the Hunter line keeping its Endeavours, kinda glad cause I'm not looking forward to these
Actually, it's because NSW Government regardless of party couldn't give a stuff about the Hunter Line because the whole line is in Safe Seats.
It's why they kept the old 620/720 classes running on it for a decade and a half after withdrawing them from every other line. They would have kept them running, had someone not died from falling through an open door on it.
@@NoVigilance yeah its the exactly the same thing as back then, Hunter line always gets the short straw, Newcastle in general does thats why we lost part of our train line and got the cheapest possible tram they could make.
Electrification up to Maitland would be cheap and easy to do and would lead to better service but no party would commit the money