The New Intercity Fleet: Not as bad as you think?
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- Опубликовано: 10 май 2024
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I don't care what anyone says, the V-Sets are the most comfortable train known to man. It's like riding on a Chesterfield lounge with wheels.
Could not agree more. And that Closed cabin and carpet. Can't sleep on the Oscars that's for sure 🤣
@@floydewar5880 Sure and I always liked them, but they have big issues you need to be honest with yourself about.
As an intercity driver my self I highly doubt we will see these in service within the next few months, they are still having other issues with the train such as ATP.
The track alignments in NSW rarely permit 160km/h running. This is especially true on the line to Wollongong.
Sure- but the line between Thirroul and Wgong is actually very straight and there have been some fairly advanced proposals in the past for a 160km/h tunnel between Thirroul and Waterfall.
Who knows.
@@thetrainguy4 I think a Thirroul-Waterfall tunnel makes sense from an operational point of view anyway, they struggle to run even 4 trains an hour on the Illawarra line south of Waterfall consistently due to the single-track section and the grades are difficult, plus I think the maintenance of the current alignment is quite difficult and expensive and isn't viable long-term. Even in a context of a NSW High Speed Rail network which will likely go via Macarthur down the Maldon-Dombarton area, it makes sense to have a faster higher-capacity line from Wollongong along the coast to Sutherland.
@thetrainguy4 That was last proposed in the mid-90s in Action for Transport 2010. If it was going to happen, it would have happened already. If there was a chance it'd get resurrected, it would be dragged over multiple elections, 1 for the feasibility study, another for the start of construction, and it'd be finished in 12 years in time for another election. By then the trains will be around 20 years old and we'll have been stuck sitting backwards for 15 years. Pass.
Then it's about time we improved those track alignments.
@@kyletopfer7818 Yes except one thing. People really don't understand how much has been mined underneath the escarpment and how difficult said tunnel if not impossible it would be to actually build.
8:53 you can still have a properly molded seat, with charge ports and a tray table that also rotates. Shinkansen and other trains do this in Japan so is totally doable.
also some Shinkansen seats even manage to also have a leg rest, adjustable headrest, reading light, seat heater and electric recline.
Yes but that requires rotating seats which must be operated by crew.
@@thetrainguy4 not really. Pax can still rotate the seats. I have done it multiple times
@@thetrainguy4until they were retired a couple of years ago, in Queensland, we had our ICEs which had seats that could be rotated, they didn't require crew, you pressed down a foot lever, and spun the seat.
@@thetrainguy4 The process can be automated as well, it's done even in Tokyo's routes.
If there was reversible seating, the trains would be much better. However, one thing I do like is that the door buttons will actually function, unlike those on the H Sets. It's the worst feeling ever when the train is nice and warm on a rainy day, and the doors just open, taking all the heat away and water comes into the vestibule like a waterfall.
No: door buttons have been removed and control given entirely to guards I thought.
Reversible seats trope is totally overrated in NSW. People are currently putting up with TERRIBLE seats on H sets for long trips for the reversible seat fetish. As said in the video that means no tables, seats not properly moulded for ergonomics, chargers would have to be overhead or on the wall, trains are heavier I would much rather a comfortable high-backed seat than reversible ones. I live in Germany now, none of the long-distance trains here have reversible seats even on long trips, 50% face the direction of travel 50% away. It's fine.
I hope you are right that they'll have door buttons and consistent operation... I.e. passenger controlled all the time.
Light rail was initially passenger controlled, but reverted to override during covid and they haven't switched back to passenger control 🤦🏻♂️
Tbh I don't know a single person that has actually has an issue with automatic doors opening and closing because of weather/temperature. It's not something that most people even notice, especially when most passengers are seated up and downstairs. I think reversible seating is what NSW folk are far more obsessed and picky with.
@@mgp1203 thats because the coldest line, the Blue Mountains Line, uses Vsets which are passenger operated and have an internal cabin door which shields the main passenger areas. Passengers will notice it for sure when the NIFs go into service in the Mountains and people will rightfully be Mad as hell.
@@kyletopfer7818 that's not an excuse to not have reversible seats as there are many examples worldwide with reversible seats that feature tray tables and charging points (even such in a double decker formation), such as the Shinkansen or bilevel Green Cars in Japan, or even our own XPTs.
I agree with everything except the seats point. What makes the Vsets special to a lot of people is that they're so damn comfy, even if they're 60odd years old. They have the best seats of any of the Sydney trains fleet. It'll be super disappointing if the Dsets don't live up to them, and they're already put themselves behind the Vsets by not having reversible seating.
Overseas passengers do not know what they are missing so they don't complain. The argument that they are "happy" carries little weight. I don't miss the absence of a tray table on current trains for Sydney to Newcastle travel.
@@listohan Exactly. I'm only on the train for 1-2.5 hours. I'm not eating a three course meal (snacks and water bottle at most). If I need to work on my laptop, my lap has always worked well.
These overseas passengers often don't have the interurban category like we do - Sydney to Springwood, Sydney to Gosford etc. Our country trains (e.g. Sydney to Grafton) are the best comparison to what's being cited overseas - a very different category of travel.
This is the best introduction to the Dsets that I have seen and I agree with most of your points except for the seating not being reversible. I have a medical condition that is severely affected when not facing the direction of travel and I tend to avoid the Tsets for this reason. I have seen the crew door operating independently of the passenger doors soon after the trains arrival in 2020 whilst on display at Central. The union approved all the safety features including the driver only feature until it was evident that they would receive a severe backlash from their members. Thanks for this excellent presentation.
i don't like going backwards either, nor bus or train or light rail or ferry. I get sick
@@MsetFox I am glad that I am not the only one.
...but half the seats still face forwards? If they're all taken you could just politely explain that you need it - i don't mean to belittle your disability or anything but i don't really see how that's any different from how someone who can't stand for long periods would ask for a seat? I know it's not quite as ideal as the current situation but still
@strawberrysoup1 I do understand what you are saying, but unfortunately, I can't take the chance that nobody would give me their seat because the consequences of that would not be good. I will say that the majority of young people do offer me their seat on a short suburban journey but not so much on a journey of 2 or more hours, which I understand. Having reversible seats would make everyone happy.
Half the seats face in the direction of travel so I can't see any problems. What medical or mental issue would cause some people to be distressed facing the opposite direction of travel? I am nonplussed.
Completely agree that customer saloon operated doors should have been the model. Keep two crew operation, but have the second walking train and operating the doors from the customer saloons.
Except if they train separates or derails that crew member is going to be a lot less useful if they're in the unoccupied set.
@@soph_the_great_Aus everything is a balance of the risk profile, likely hood and impact... If you can show me that your scenario is likely than I'll agree we need that mitigation... But I highly doubt your scenario has a high risk rating i.e. very unlikely
@DAEMTAM simply saying that something is highly unlikely so we don't need to mitigate the risk only makes the risk more possible and makes the impact of such event even worse.
Not only that, none of our trains are designed to be walked through except a waratah.
Not only that it takes on average 3 - 7 minutes to walk through an 8 car set.
I'll also point out that given the people that train crew encounter, having them walk through the train increases the likely hood of injury from a passenger in the concept they're proposing.
I'll also point out, that during peak a fully loaded train would make door operations near impossible from a vestibule control system and would have a higer risk of being operated by non authorised people.
The reliance on CCTV cameras is another issue given that cctv is unreliable at the best of times given it has a 3 - 7 second delay depending on the set and 90% of the Fleet doesn't have external cameras.
It's all well and good to suggest ideas but it's clear most of the people commenting have no absolutely no idea what it's like from an Operational point of view.
Most rail staff in other countries that I have spoken to personally prefer our method of working, it's just that Management is cheap and trying to retrain the amount of staff would take years.
If people do want staff walking through the train then Employee more staff to do that, don't restrict or change roles based on a suggestion from someone that has never had to do the job.
@@soph_the_great_Aus first off, there are multiple ways you can mitigate risk.
These trains were designed to mitigate the risk by enabling driver only operations. If a seperation or derailment was to occur they have fail safe systems designed in.
@@soph_the_great_Aus these new trains are designed for walk through.
Not sure what your point about the time taken to walkthrough is about? It takes me 5 minutes to walk to the bathroom at work, but it's not relevant to the operation of the office...
Fully concur with the majority of your comments - they sure will be a major improvement for everyone, especially those with mobility issues. The V sets were a great 'workhorse' but well past their 'use by date'. The only issue is of course the 'reverse seating' ; something not many passengers like, especially for a long journey on a train (in fact some may suffer from motion sickness). True in Europe it is common to have the same forward & reverse seating on long-distance trains. In Japan, they overcome this problem with the crew being able to switch all the seats around with the flick of a button (trust the Japanese). Overall, if the frequency is increased then perhaps the issue of reverse seating is not as critical - only time will tell once the new fleet is finally in service.
I think people will eventally ignore it and just put up with it..... there are some people (like myself) that want to sit backwards rather than forwards and would go out of my way to pick it...
Most people don't want the V sets to run forever. What they do want is a spiritual successor to the V set - A train with the things people love, like closed in vestibules and comfortable reversible seats, but with better safety, better accessibility and toilets you actually want to use (I wouldn't go in a V set toilet to even just wash my hands). We made a great train before, we could do it again. But what we did instead was purchase the spiritual successor to the G and H set. A suburban train with some interurban features bolted on.
Airline tray tables have been found to be carry more bacteria than toilet seats, so results from a similar test of these train tables will make for interesting reading.
A Brit looking over from an outside perspective here - But even I agree that the reversable seats that you Aussies currently have are far superior to our fixed seat model.
I often hate having to sit backwards, especially on longer journeys, it even makes me feel nauseous sometimes. You lot are truly lucky to have the option over there, it's a shame they've removed it with these sets to better match what we do over here (probably for the sake of capacity, a lot of trains here have non existent legroom).
Still, a good video, we've had way too many issues with our own new train introductions here too (Especially the Class 777 in my own region).
Reversing seats I think is a bigger issue than suggested here. Sure you can point to the UK where they don’t have an alternative but we have an existing culture and etiquette with reversing seats which is great and sad to see go. Firstly facing towards is not a guarantee since once that half fills up first (which will almost always be the case as it is on tangaras) you’ll have no choice but an unpleasant backward journey. Secondly you lose the current advantage which is when a train is at low capacity you can get unobscured views outside without a seat back blocking half the window. And finally if you are in larger groups (which is often the case for these longer journeys from experience) there are far fewer spaces unlike right now when you can create group seating anywhere. I think charges can easily be put in the walls rather than the seats and that this is a bad move:/
I think this is a personal preference, for many it is a huge issue, for others like myself I'm happy with this choice as long as the seat is 3 hour trip comfortable...
@DAEMTAM For many like me, it's a necessary preference due to a medical condition that causes vertigo and sickness when facing backwards even for a short journey.
The D sets look absolutely gorgeous, and for me, them, along with the M sets, are one of the best train designs of the world.
Though I don't really care to complain about the seats, they *could* have had rotating seats as seen on the Shinkansen and other East Asian trains, since Hyundai Rotem does have the technology to build them and has already done so for so many of the trains over here in South Korea.
Really don't understand the hate about everything else though.
I think the problem with rotating seats is that they can't expect passengers to do it themselves, because it's easier to get your fingers caught in them, and you can't have people sitting on the seats adjacent while you rotate them, so they would have to do it at the terminus stations (which is definitely possible for long distance trains). However it would have also meant fewer seats or less leg room in the trains because right now they have two static seats back to back in the centres of the cars, you would have to space these further apart if they could rotate.
The seats are fixed and the way they are to meet the new fire-life safety requirements.
A and B with low back seats are ok, but for a high back seat - look at the Oscars for how hard they are to meet that requirement.
By making the seats fixed, you actually reduce weight and flammable material locations (one side being non flammable plastic or fibreglass, meaning you can install more padding
@@pwhnckexstflajizdryvombqug9042
One of the Hyundai Rotem-built trains (ITX-Cheongchun) has seats that rotate automatically, so if those were implemented it wouldn't be much of a problem. (as long as you only rotate them at the terminus that is)
@@rogue265
I'm not sure what the point of your comment is, rotating seats also require only 1 side of padding so I don't see your comment fitting my point
@@Skyler_Park because NSW won't do that because the NSW train link times require on board staff to rotate the seats.
I'm sure the guard would love to do that 8-) but at least it would get them out of the damn cabin.
I was giving the reason why the seats were fixed basically
The V set seats were the best I've ever experienced. Just perfect for a tired and weary university student coming home late at night. Safer than the suburban trains too.
I don't think a single reasonable person would think new trains being out of service for 5 years to be a good outcome. But it hasn't stopped me from enjoying the last hurrah of the V sets. The whine and whistle sounds they make when they leave a platform. The comfortable reversible seats. The quiet and warm (or cool depending on the time of year) carriage, afforded by the sealed off vestibule. The guard announcing every station, rather than an automated and often too loud and distorted Gretel Killeen voice. The feeling that you're not just riding a suburban set. And best of all, the nostalgia that I'm commuting on the same train I rode to my Dad's work as a child when he was commuting.
No, I won't miss the grotty toilets, or the loud air conditioning. I won't miss the DKM and DKT carriages with their broken vestibule doors. I won't miss seeing wheel chair passengers stuck in the vestibule. And I certainly won't miss that smell from the carpeted floors after too much rain.
Despite this, I'll be sad once I've rode my last V set. They've been a solid workhorse for decades. But it's time for the D sets to carry the torch.
Thank you for making this. I've seen soo many lies circulating among railfans about these trains for years now and you're the first person to actually take a look at the facts
They didn't holistically look at the facts, he rebuffed the unions criticism because it was from the Union and left out how the governments own reports noted failures and the reliance on cctv and doo was an issue.
This is yet another buff peice.
Lies created by the RTBU and spread by the media and other ignorant rail enthusiasts
The fact you are so nonchalant about the reversible seats tells me you don’t rely on the v sets for long distances. It’s not so much the reservibility of them but they are so rugged and comfortable that the rough journey that occurs going up and don’t the mountain is negated by the comfort. They are rugged and thick because they are expected to move.
The molded seats of these new trains will be fixed and only minimal padding.
As I said, I'm reserving judgement of comfort until I can experience it first hand. Then I'll be as critical as I like about seats of both sets.
I agree they look pretty good and will probably be a great step forward especially the 2+2 seating. But a few points...
Reversible seating is not common internationally. But the best railway system in the world (Japan shinkansen) can do it. And it is a feature of Australian trains that is universally praised by visitors. Surely reversible seats and usb points can be made to be compatible.
The tunnel stuff may be true - but was never mentioned until the trains arrived. I must admit it all sounds a bit like post facto justification (or post fxxxup). Call me cynical.
But the most important point is the billions wasted because the government didn't have the fight with the unions before they ordered the trains rather than after they were delivered and paid for.
Also on the narrow gauge express services in Japan such as the Tokiwa and Hitachi. The cleaners rotate all seats to face forwards when the train terminates. You don't have a choice about facing forwards! I can't see any technical reason why charging ports could not be used in such a system. Their seats already have trays.
Rotating seats have to be spaced further apart and you can't have the back-to-back seats like the D sets do in the centre of the cars. This would either mean less leg room or fewer seats if they did it for these trains.
As for "not hearing about the width thing until they were delivered" as someone who has been paying attention to the D sets from the start, the government most definitely designed the width of the trains intentionally and always planned on widening the tunnels to accommodate this. It was clear from day 1 that they had built the trains to practically the same dimensions as the Oscars, and stated their reason for doing so is consistency with the rest of the fleet, and extra width so they can have wider seating. This was a case of the news making up stories or rather, telling the story in a way which made people think they did it accidentally. The news said they ordered trains "too wide for the tunnels" which gives the impression it was accidental, which is not true and never was. They did order trains "too wide" for the (existing) tunnels (and also have had a plan for ages to widen the tunnels). If they had ordered narrow trains, the news could have gone on about how they are "sacrificing passenger comfort" by ordering narrower trains than the rest of the fleet, just because of a few tunnels in the blue mountains.
When these trains do come out, could they follow a similar timetable on the CCN on weekdays like how (Mostly) 1 Newcastle service does express all the way and one doing all stops to newcastle.
The new carriages made by Pt. INKA Surabaya for Indonesia, Pilipinas & Thailand have moulded seats which spin around to face forward.
They also have WiFi & mobile device power outlets for laptop, tablet, headphone & phone charging.
I don’t like how there is only 1 seat per carriage to my liking on the D sets as there is only 1 seat row with a whole window view as the others face backwards or only have half a window and the front seat have the annoying display board in the way I get the feeling I won’t like them
Yeah, I generally like to sit far back in the carriage, in a seat that gets the full window. That way I get a good view outside and can see what's going on in my carriage - a habit I picked up when I was a kid growing up in the inner west (back when it was a bit rough). You didn't want to keep your back on potential trouble.
I hope these increase services to Newcastle as well especially on weekends, they have the same maximum speed limit as the XPT does today, their design is an evolution of the H set but with 2x2 rows and half have 6-cars and built overseas. Most of the trains are in Australia now with I believe only a few left getting built and tested in South Korea.
8:02 That accident with the blind man occurred at Leura, so he must have been travelling on a V set, not a H Set. Also, the doors of H Sets do NOT open at stations where the door/s might not be facing the platform. There are several short 1 car platforms around (and even a one-door platform at Wondabyne) and the guard controls which doors will open. It's the V sets which don't have that arrangement.
That’s literally exactly what I said…
Seats are fixed, so some people will have to sit facing opposite the direction of travel. A lot of people dont like travelling like that
I cannot wait for these to come out, I love going past near tuggerah on a train and seeing trains looking brand new like, just sitting there doing nothing.
Been riding the V sets from Tuggerah to Central constantly for almost my entire life. I am beyond excited for competent bike racks and outlets, but man I will miss those reversible seats.
Excellent video. The sooner the new trains are operational on the Blue Mountains line the better. The old trains are dangerous, as mentioned, as I almost suffered a fall from a carriage at Leura in similar circumstances to the blind man. The Luddites in the rail union ought to find another vocation. I have no trouble using metro, subway, regular or non-reversible seating.
The union wasn't arguing against these trains because of the platform gaps which btw will be the same with the new trains if not only slightly smaller.
The argument was the guard or driver wouldn't be able to see or hear you if you fell because they'd be stuck in the train relying on a poor cctv system.
Its only bad due to the lack of reversible seats but for me it doesn't really matter as well as its late and cost
I'm assuming they haven't brought back the old water dispensers of the V-set days ☹️
Pretty much nailed it. A 10 car D set is about 9 metres longer than an 8 car V set. The latter are too marrow to be considered safe by todays standards. Their replacements needed to have the same car length and body widrh as suburban trains so that gap fillers can be fitted where necessary.
I caught a V set from Eastwood to West Ryde on the first day in service in 1970 (still had clear plastic on the carpeted wall panels). There were grumblings then about the cabins being stuffy with fixed windows and the risk of people talling down the stairs. My schoolmmates and i just loved it. Let's face it. The S sets were horrible.
Great video, couldn’t have said it better myself!
I don’t like the non reversible seats & I think most will agree
Here is a crazy idea...now stay with me here, we build our own trains at facilities such near cardiff ensuring they're fit for purpose to begin with.
What a silly idea 😂😂😂
Looking forward to using the better bike racks on the blue mountains line, plus the big bike logo on the side of the train tells you where they are, unlike the current trains.
The best looking double decker trains I've seen
I think the usb and power outlet on the seat is probs the reason why the seats aren't reversible (that what i think, but can work with the plugs being underneath the seats for both sides) and probs more likely to break than set seats. But I find it pretty boring sitting front facing.
The guard thing shouldn't have happened and due to the nature of NSW train stations. Its will need guards for the existance of NSW trains and be adopted into all future fleets.
Yes Melbourne and others trains worked with driver only, but i think its far too messy to try and apply it here.... can be done but the as mentioned, the camera that the driver used is pretty shit.
Perth as an example uses Driver only operation, and their drivers don't have cameras or mirrors I'm pretty sure. They solely rely on the door interlock to warn them if someone is stuck in the doors.
I still cannot get my head around the fact people can support the RTBU on this despite them demanding removal of passenger operated door function. This is just insane, why does the RTBU hate modern technology? Just irrational.
Go and tell people in the Blue Mountains on a -4°C morning all doors have to open because the RTBU wants it that way. Or on a hot day up the coast or in the west. Just nuts. More than anything else, that shows you the RTBU isn't a good-faith negotiator. "Safety" removing proven modern tech and demanding their guards hang out the side of a moving train despite their staff having fallen out the train is another.
Seriously? I thought they were only complaining about the cctv and guard operated doors! Crazy if they forced the removal of passenger controlled options for cold and hot weather!
@@DAEMTAM theyre definitely being disabled and I have read a Lot of people saying they are being taken out of the new trains completely. Brought to you by the RTBU.
@@kyletopfer7818 thank you (and booooo to the RTBU)
there are less seats available more people have to stand on their commute home. possibly up to 2 hours
9:00 So, just because "few other countries" have reversible seats, NSW is not allowed to have them? What a weak argument! Two countries similar in size to Australia, Canada and the U.S., have had them. Indeed the reversible seats in the original Sydney Suburban sets had a U.S. patent mark on them. London trams had reversible seats from 1908 until the closure of their first tram system in 1952. A vintage Blackpool tram has reversible seats on one side and longitudinal seats on the other side! So they are more common than the reversible seat opponents claim.
I am sorry but there is a reason why the V set have enclosed vestibules mainly cold winter mornings/nights in the Blue Mountains. Likewise these trains were never built to support the numbers of what I have seen, passengers doing short hops between stations, they should be really be using the suburban fleet instead of the intercity fleet. In regard to reversible seats which are the most comfortable out of the entire fleet, why should we accept something that has been like it for many years or accepting a step down in my opinion. Many people don’t know this but the V sets were originally designed to have non reversible seating initially until the community actually raised the issue that they wanted reversible seating for long trips. The D sets have a lot to live up to in comparison with the v sets. Kind regards, somebody who’s father was actually apart of the team that built the V sets at Comeng.
I'm still patiently waiting for the new regional trains! Canberra to Sydney is a very busy service and it would be great to at least get trains with power outlets! Wifi would be nice, but i can live without that for 4 hours.
Non-reversible seats on trains that don't reverse at the end of their trip are unforgivable. We've had them for a century & designing them isn’t hard. If they can't fix the alignments to allow for long stretches of 160km/h running to bypass Cowan Bank, Lapstone and Helensburgh curves entirely (extend suburban services for the local stations), and services remain 2-3 hours long, then no. Just no. Power belongs in the ceiling anyway, not the seats.
I think the non-reversible seats trope is totally overrated in NSW. People are currently putting up with TERRIBLE seats on the H sets for long trips for the reversible seat fetish. I would much rather a comfortable high-backed seat than reversible ones. I live in Germany now, none of the long-distance trains here have reversible seats even on long trips, 50% face the direction of travel 50% away. It's fine.
@kyletopfer7818 German trains are always late, but they're still faster than tottering up Cowan Bank or into Stanwell Park at 35km/h. You rarely have daily commutes that take 2 hours plus transfers in Germany.
@@PCLoadLetter German trains have running issues and poor on-time running for a few reasons as I understand it; firstly because since the mid 1990s the Government throttled back funding for improvements to the existing network so a lot of passing tracks were removed meaning express trains get stuck behind locals. Secondly some key stations, notably Frankfurt Stuttgart as well as München, are terminal stations running at or near capacity designed for far less train movements per day, and should have been replaced by through stations years ago as was planned for Frankfurt last decade and is currently under construction in Stuttgart. Thirdly deferred maintenance is a problem, and fourth sabotage for theft of copper wiring as well as general public interference in the rail corridors is a persistent issue.
As for your other points, I regularly sit on regional trains for 2-3 hours to get to different places, but there are plenty of ICE journeys that take over 2 hours and plenty of people make them regularly a few times a week. But this is an argument in favour of better more comfortable seats though! As said in the video reversible seats means no tables, seats not properly moulded for ergonomics, chargers would have to be overhead or on the wall, trains are heavier: I would much rather a comfortable high-backed seat than reversible ones. I live in Germany now, none of the long-distance trains here have reversible seats even on long trips, 50% face the direction of travel 50% away. It's fine. Anyone that is doing the majority of the journey will be able to find a forward-facing seat most of the time anyway if they want, you are pretending trains will be full from first stop to last every trip which is nonsense.
Yes, they could have been designed but that would have come at a cost including the higher cost of manufacture, reduced seating capacity, high maintenance costs and the overall cost of moving away from standard designs. The rest of the world does without them just fine.
@@kyletopfer7818I did some ICE trips last week and sat backwards. My doctor reported no adverse effects.
The only thing I don't like the V sets, you have to manually open the doors yourself. Sometimes you can smell leaking gas on certain carriages.
I agree, and sometimes the doors are very hard to open, especially for people with luggage and small children and of course the elderly and disabled.
I think you're thinking of brake dust.
The smell is from the brakes
@@labrador2818 You are definitely correct.
@@PCLoadLetter you are definitely correct
I am not so familiar with the rail scene in Australia so please do correct me if I got anything wrong.
So these are suppose to be intercity trains… right? As in the new ones that will run up to 3 hours. Are there even… any sort of catering is gonna be onboard? Surely they won’t be this cruel to not add any sort of vending machine onboard- would they?? If there isn’t, is that typically a norm for the past few decades for these type of train and services?
trains in aussie that dont run overnight / longer than 5 hrs generally dont have catering, im from tassie and had never caught a long train for commuting, i wasnt used to this and although i thought there would be food, i have caught a 3 hour train in nsw and you dont need food for that timr
@@tasmanianmapping how were you not hungry at all? Did you bring your own food or ate earlier before you boarded?
@@ludwigtails no, we went from wynyard (sydney cbd) to blacktown (near the edge of the suburbs) on a 1 1/2 hr train and then anouther 1 1/2 hr train to katoomba (regional town) and although it was long, you dont actually notice cuz its not as long as it seems, especially whrn u arent a regular train personl as my home state doesnt have rail
@tasmanianmapping I remember when Tasmania had a wonderful train service. I caught the train from Devonport to Hobart in 1974 after arriving on the Ferry from Melbourne. The journey was beautiful, and the train was as good, if not better, than anything we had in NSW at the time.
@@aussiejohn5835 im not that old to have been on that, but im from launceston, have been on the trams at the tramway museum here, and it wouod be so much better if we had this transit. Currently we have metro buses that are so infrequent my suburb gets 3 buses a day and none on weekends, plus NO afternoon commuter service.
I assume some Oscar sets will still operate peak hour CCN services via Gordon after the whole NIF fleet is in service due to short platforms in the city
Fairly certain no CCN trains will use the north shore after either the 2024 or 2025 timetables.
@@thetrainguy4 I seen heaps of people board the peak hour CCN services via Gordon. I think its would be nuts to get rid of that service, unless if Gordon services do an cross platform interchange in hornsby or bewora to an CCN platform or frequency increased enough to jusify that for both CCN and gordon services.
A lot of them probably just go to suburban stations.
People going further north can change at Central- the intercity North Shore trains chew up way too much capacity for not much benefit over a stopping train.
They could just run the D sets as 8 cars and still do the CCN via gordon with them.
@@thetrainguy4 Which is faster (as an express, assuming minimal interference with locals), CCN or North Shore? North Shore looks more direct on a map, but both have a lot of curves.
I think you have it wrong in regards to the forward and reverse facing seats. I for one cannot sit in the reverse direction and you just have to look people who avoid travelling in rear facing seats in the Tangara’s…the front facing seat always fill up first.
I have caugt the train from Blacktown to Katoomba on a B-Set, and it was not great because, although the trains are great, frequencys suck, and we missed the train by 1 minute, and had to wait an hour at Blacktown
Yea the timing sucks but the D sets won't really improve the frequency on the BMT line.
Everything gets stuck between St Mary's and Penrith and will probably get worse with the airport.
The trains may well have all the positive points you note, but the abolition of reversible seating, is a very poor step. I don't care that no other network in the world has them. We've had them in Sydney (and then outer-suburban trains) for a very long time. They are popular and are comfortable.
Your proposed 2-man system of operation is pretty much standard operating procedure here in the States and has been for DECADES. How can they really not think of that as an alternative in their debates?
It was basically the Guard Union getting pissy about losing jobs
The information quality of your videos is excellent, you have a very level headed opinion on things too! Really well done
Lots of good points. I feel a sense of nostalgia for the V sets but you’re right … they don’t meet modern passenger standards. Your video provides some useful balance to the negativity that seems to dominate about the D sets.
Perhaps you’d consider making a video on the new NSW Regional Fleet at some point, which also receives a lot of negativity. 🤔
Oh I’ve already done that, unfortunately there’s much less to be positive about there…
@@thetrainguy4 Ah, good to know. Thanks!
i been on bord the h set trains a few times when i was in sydeny back in september last year did a few trips a couple of times from central to gosford and back for a day trip not bad train the h set
Great video, very objective and thoughtfully explained. I agree with you regarding seats. I believe that NSW commuters are forfeited comfort to retain reversable seating. Moreover though I loved the V sets in teir day, the seats aren't nearly as comfortable and they are becoming less reliable.
I hate these seats. Not only are they as hard as rocks. Being over 6 foot your shoulders always hit the parts that fold in and you're in for an uncomfortable ride the whole way home.
I'm not a union man at all due to the Union in my trade being bloody useless. I absolutely agree with the RTBU in fighting to keep the guard on this new train. Good job RTBU.
I live at Wentworth Falls and see the new trains driving past regularly out on (what I assume) testing. They are a nice looing unit.
5:46 - Wrong! The single track 1888 Clifton Tunnel and its associated 2km of single track considerably hampers South Coast train operations. No way you are going to get a 30 minute off-peak service, let alone a 15 minute frequency in peak periods. NSW Transport bureaucrats still do semantic somersaults to justify the 2-hourly service to smaller South Coast stations on weekends.
They already do a 20 minute peak frequency, you don't sound like you know more than Sydney Trains timetable planners...
@@thetrainguy4 20 minutes is not 15 minutes. You might think that surely it would be easy to shorten the gap to 15 minutes in peak period, but it is not. South Coast trains have to compete for spots with the very busy section from Sutherland onwards. It also comes at the cost of half-hourly peak services in the opposite direction Central/Bondi Jun to Wollongong.
The bureaucrats also justify the two hourly service on weekends to the smaller South Coast stations by saying that you can get a south-bound train to Thirroul and change there. The problem with this: if you can't get say the 3.15pm train from Otford to Central, they say get the 3.30pm train from there to Thirroul and change to the first stop Helensburgh train. The connection gap at Thirroul is, however, very tight, a mere 3 minutes. If the all stations train is just a few minutes late (as it often is) then "customers" miss the train at Thirroul.
It's not the train planners and controllers I have an issue with, it's the politicians and their allied senior bureaucrats making silly announcements that the planners know can't be implemented.
Um. How many years late are they? Also NON reversible HARD seats. Not reversible SOFR seats.
I think it’s unfair to paint all guards with the same brush. Vast majority are diligent and do their job with pride.
Yeah they do their jobs, but they don't currently have any duties when traveling between stations so they sit in the cab doing what they want. I encourage guards to do this, what else are you going to do betweens stations? They do often speak to passengers when required, but if they started walking down the train now they might not be able to get back before the next station. They used to be able to perform their guard duties at any set of passenger doors, now days while it's physically possible, the operating rules prevent it I'm pretty sure.
@@pwhnckexstflajizdryvombqug9042 I think if guards were expected to roam trains for customer service or ticket-checking purposes, there would have to be 2 present on the train. Similar to how transport officers and police travel in multiples. What are your thoughts on this?
Ive seen these running across the Blue Mts Line ocassionly, Is that were they where hidden out of sight... Lol
Hey thats my photo of the new screens that i posted to reddit!! ( i don't care but its cool to see )
All of the image credits are in the description, thanks for watching and being a good sport!
Though I've never say in one of those seats, they look like awful ironing boards which will be awful after 15 minutes of sitting, let alone three hours :(
Great Video. Brace yourself for the flow of hate that will come from people who can't think critically or compromise on what the union told them. Don't stress there are some people you won't convince. You've explained the issue with the size of the trains in the mountains well, a lot of people don't seem to understand the asset upgrade that had occurred across the rest of the network over the past 20 years to run the OSCARs stopped at Springwood.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think these trains are perfect, in fact I'm worried about the comfort factor but there's a few things that were not very well explained with these trains. In the Driver Only Operation model, the passenger interaction with the doors was never explained and allowed naysayers to prosecute their argument well. The argument was that train drivers would be trying to see all the train doors in the dark at unattended platforms in the outer regions. However doors would only operate if passengers interacted with them and the screen would be divided up between the number of doors interacted with. Likely some stations this would be a large number of doors, at others this would be sometimes no doors. The doors would also close after a period of time themselves, similar to the trains operated in Melbourne (with this operations accepted by the same union).
I think a better option would have been the Vline model on the Vlocity, where the guard roams the train and is not in the cab, but stands on the platform with a remote and closes the doors. This means they are not stuck in place in a cab. I would also prefer to see the Guard and Driver in the same cab to ensure that there is no communication issue between them however this would not fit with the "Waratah Model" the union has requested.
Great, so the union win means passengers lose by not having an active on board conductor.
I've not heard so much opinion masquerading as fact on this subject in any other article on the Mariyung fleet.
You're assertion that there's more capacity on a 10 car Mariyung than a 8 car V is true, if you're willing to stand, there's less seats due to the 3 metre shorter coaches & vestibule end design & wide door placement which reduces double deck seating space (which you don't mention) & means 10 cars seat less than the 8 cars they replace, that's 16 more wheels to maintain, 4 extra bogies & a set of traction equipment that seats less people than a V set. You also say " you can't have usb chargers with reversible seating, so fixed seating is better, that's incorrect yes you can, & your assertion that other trains in the world don't have reversible seating so why should the Mariyung, whilst that's true, they have seating back to back, not bus style front to back on inter regional services which makes for more leg room and a better travelling experience, these are bus style layout to try and grab some lost seating capacity back from the loss of double deck coach space.
You also said the RTBU's demands for guards was unreasonable & as other countries don't have guards why should Nsw trainlink. Well you happened to miss out that safe work Australia also came down on the side of RTBU, as the offered operation model was "significantly less safe" than having a gaurd as did RISSB who just happen to be the national regulator whom have to give permission to NSW Trainlink to let the train enter service. Lastly your assertion that "all the other trains are wide body so why can't these be" well no double deck trains are wide body rather they are medium rolling stock outline, only the single deck suburban cars were wide, the U boats were narrower & longer like the V sets because they have low density seating, narrower longer cars mean more seats. Another wrong one from you was the assertion that the contract didnt ask for trains that were to wide for the tunnels, YES IT DID, the contract called for medium body rolling stock outline, yes the LNP government wanted to withdraw through train services to Lithgow & replace them with shuttle buses which is why medium bodied trains were ordered & sidings installed at Mount Victoria. The V sets invitation to tender called for 2 hour seats, ComEng gave us 4 hour seats & if you think being hemmed in on non reversible seating is an improvement on this then you are sorely mistaken.
Your assertion that I said any of this is untrue.
-Capacity always includes standees. You loose a few seats, but V sets are standing room only in peak anyway.
-16 more wheels because the tender specified for them to be wider, which would only be possible with shorter cars. This was to reduce the gap between platform and train.
-USB chargers are far harder to integrate into reversible seating.
-Most trains in the world have airline style seats, except maybe Switzerland. You're wrong about that.
-I said the RTBUs demands were questionable as a report found that the proposed operating model was not only safer than the current Waratah-style model, but that it was safer than every other model they analysed of international operators. They also pointed out a number of critical safety flaws with the current model and reasons why nobody else uses it.
-**I never argued for OPO.**
-By all other trains I meant double deckers, obviously.
-I never said the tender specified trains that weren't too wide, I said the plan from the start was to widen the 10 Tunnels.
-I have been 'hemmed in' on fixed seats every time I travel in Europe, and it is always far more comfortable (even backwards) than on a V set. Not to mention all the other modern amenities.
TRAINSSSSSS TO THE Roo farm
I don't agree with the reversible seats. Imagine sitting backwards 2hrs from Newcastle. Hopefully, we can get more services from Newcastle to Sydney and speeds increase!!
I can imagine, and as long as the seats are comfortable I don't have a problem. Europeans do it all the time.
No mate, reversible seats out rank tray tables and everything else for comfort and ease of journey. Regardless of international standing, it’s what makes Sydney and NSW trains unique for their passengers.
That's not being "unique", that's being inferior. No tray tables and plug sockets in a 3 hour journey is pretty annoying.
Also, the V set seats aren't separated, and are unable to recline. If that isn't inferior, idk what is.
@@Skyler_Park You can still have plug sockets in reversible seating. Tray tables are over rated and unfortunately would get vandalised. It wouldn’t surprise me if the power USB sockets would get vandalised as well. The less objects to touch in public transport the better.
Reclining has benefits yes but they only recline to a very small degree. One has to wonder if that’s even worth it for fixed seating.
@@jakez6851
That's a stupid excuse to have...
Just because there is a chance of them being vandalised doesn't mean not having them at all is the solution.
Those amenities might be nothing to most people, but there's always going to be someone who really needs it.
And vandalism is more of a problem with the people using the trains, not the trains themselves. You can't guarantee they would happen often too, so there's no reason to just make the ride less convenient for everyone just to prevent something that's very unlikely to happen most of the time.
@Skyler_Park There isn't just a chance tray tables would be vandalized. It's guaranteed. These trains run almost 24x7, and they're used by eshays and bogans. The eshays will jump on them for fun.
@@Skyler_Park it’s a valid excuse. It is a people problem yes I agree however, the amount of money the tax payer has to pay to keep fixing the trains from vandals is absurd. Etching on the glass, breaking the seat handles (which I have seen broken a few times). In the case of trays and usb chargers it will cost more to fix over and over again. (Don’t forget people won’t wipe down their trays after use). In public transport less is more. The less people to interact with equipment the better. (Being a people problem). Why do you think they removed reversible seats ? They are a pain to repair, just look at the H set trains.
The convenience is getting you from point A to point B via mass transit. No need for usb chargers when we have battery packs. Keep it simple. Hop on hop off. Accessibility for entry and exit, comfort and safety. It’s not supposed to be an electrical wonderland for people’s gadgets.
Also. HTF were they WIDER?? 🤯🤯🤯
Just watched a video about the new 320km/h trains being supplied to Korean railways by Hyundai Rotem: reversible seats, wifi, seatback screens etc etc. 😂😂😂 You don't ask you don't get.
Are you talking about the KTX-Cheongryong?
That train isn't even in the same level as the D sets, since the former's a high-speed train and the latter's just a regional train.
It would be better off comparing them with the ITX-Cheongchun which is more or less similar to the D sets, except it only has two double-deck carriages and is 20km/h faster.
V Set cult follower here :)
Another imported PoS, get back to making trains here in Australia like Victoria does.
They also are fully open like the suburban sets, the beauty of the V sets is the inner doors kept the heat or cold out of the main cabin. These will let the heat or cold in as soon as the doors open. The seats don't look as comfy and the inability to swing them over is rediculous.
Sorry, but no.
- The separate vestibule on the V-sets helps with insulation of noise, temperature, etc. The V-sets are very "cosy". These new sets are going to be far too "open". We're not architecting a house here.
- Same with the windows and lighting. The V-sets small, tinted windows are fantastic for keeping excess sunlight, noise and heat/cold out. I don't want or need giant panes of glass everywhere. These new D sets are really just a facelifted M/H/A/B set train which, honestly, are a poor design for long-distance services.
- The lighting on new trains is awful. V sets have dimmer, "warmer" lighting. This is FAR more pleasant. Travelling on the M/H/A/B sets at night is atrociously bad with their constant, blinding, blue-hue light. And I bet these new sets will be the same. No joke, I would go so far as to say this is actually a health hazard.
- Reversible seating is a non-negotiable for Sydney commuters. Fixed seating been tried and rejected before. Just don't argue with what passengers want, let them flip the seats. I'm sure a bit of clever engineering could allow for this as well as having power sockets for charging etc. Nobody gives a flying F if others around the world are simply "used to it". If they had it, they would want to keep it as well. And as for "well 50% are forward facing" .. So? That means 50% are rear facing. So unless if the trains are always 50% empty (which they won't be) then you have a problem.
The "cons" of the V-sets are trivial relative to the actual quality of the ride overall. There is something seriously wrong if a 50+ year newer train can't do what the V sets accomplished so well, especially when those things are so, so basic.
I agree with the vestibules, something that was going to be addressed by having passenger operated doors but the union threw a hissy fit etc.
I hold back judgement on comfort until I can actually ride them. If they are uncomfortable and loud and too sterile then I'll say that. If I think they're nice then I'll say that. We will see.
@@thetrainguy4 Fair enough. To me, these are, for all intents and purposes, just the existing rolling stock but with a 2+2 seating arrangement. I really don't have high hopes, and no doubt a lot of wasted money.
No-one else whinges about the non reversible seats so why should we? Come on. Really? Who cares of Europe or Asia. We have reversable seats Central Coast/Newcastle so there would expect that same on the train replacements. I can see that these seats are NOT going to be comfortable for a 2.5 to 3 hours train ride. If you are going to be on re first service, bring a pillow to sit on. As far as usb charging ports are concerned, we do not need them. Read a book instead or carry a power bank.
While they may not whinge about it, visitors praise the fact that Sydney train seats are reversible and wish their trains had them. Also, many people get nauseous travelling backwards on trains. USB ports and wifi are unnecessary these days as we have better battery life in phones and plans with more data. Public wifi will be too slow.
My big issue is the seats, they don't look comfortable in the slightest, the high back is way to straight and there is definitely not enough padding. Tray tables are completely unnecessary, they almost never get used on V/Line services so removing reversible seats for that was a waste. it would be a lot less controversial if they went with Vlocity seats.
What you failed to Mention was the Failure of the then LNP Government to meet with Unions and other stakeholders for their input. The LNP created a Huge mess and that should never be forgotten. We shall wait and see if they give us Lemons.
I've heard that the union bosses did agree to the plan initally, but changed their mind once they found out their members didn't like the idea.
And besides, the Government was clear from 2016 at least about how the trains would operate, unions had nothing to say back then
Unions make up 51% of votes in Labor party pre-selections. They are literally an arm of the ALP, this happened in an election year, how is that remotely the LNP's fault that the ALP wanted to win the election?
It was both amusing and annoying how these trains were rubbished before they even entered service.
On the basis that they are not made in Australia. As though Australian made trains were ever anything great…
You made really good points until you said nah the railway workers have no idea what they're talking about and trying to change a safety critical role to a customer service role.
Maybe just Employee people to do customer service roles then pushing for DOO on trains that you can't walk through.
I’m not advocating for anything, I was just pointing out that a CS guard wouldn’t be inherently unsafe.
@thetrainguy4
A quick list of reasons why
- Crush loading during peak, where is the CS guard meant to go?
- Door Operations, CCTV isn't reliable on a train and has a delay from 3 - 7 seconds which leaves things to be missed very easily.
- Increased risk of assaults, especially for female and minority and diverse staff.
- Lack of support if trapped by an attacker / Easy to corner off.
If you want more customer service roles that's fine, I agree that'd be great, but making the guard walk through the train, alone with little to no communication with the driver is where it becomes inherently unsafe.
The xpt crew have enough issues on a less packed train with booked seating.
They look rather uncomfortable to me.
Really good clip - I love the very pointed use of the SWT Class 450s re "blindingly obvious things done in places whose railway operating model is almost identical to NSW's"
Sounds more like an LNP "Aren't we so damned good ordering these trains" promo video.
I forecast the first thing to be removed once these trains finally go operational is the power and USB charging outlets after a disproportionately high amount of maintenance is needed to remove some spoilt brats used chewing gum.
These new trains will achieve nothing to improve services on the long-suffering commuters of the Central Coast and Newcastle, due to infrastructure restrictions (power and signaling just to name two)
In light of being over 5 years late and over a billion dollars over budget, along with the modifications to infrastructure just to make 'em fit (tunnels, station platforms etc) , I wonder how that would compare with a locally produced product. Sounds like such a great deal for the NSW taxpayer! NOT!
I do not support the LNP…
BUT
NSW can’t build trains really anymore. With time and investment we could resurrect some form of industry (as will happen for the Tangaras).
5 years late and over budget. Sounds like an Aussie version of the class 701
OK then RTBU are going to stop Members working Trains as the Driver Need to Drive and Guard needs to Guard, Train Manager style is OK BUT if RTBU put a Banned on it and Do not Move and all of People who did get the sack Then got Probern to bring back into traffic as need to everyone sack people in Australia and Bring them back and to take of the tag. NOW all the set need window or something else as CCTV is not 100 safe
Improvement? 🤣🤣🤣
Hate on me, disagree with me but I don’t get why everyone is fussing about reversible seating, I get it it’s annoying to sit backwards, but just think about all of the new features that are relevant in todays time And some of these trains operate in 10 cars so your bound to find a seat that is in the direction of your satisfaction, I actually can’t wait till they enter service!
I think it's just frustrating that for no good reason we are going backwards (literally) in the name of progress, and if we dare to ask why we are told 'suck it up it doesn't matter' like we are naughty children.
It will only be for long distance trains, the next generation of suburban trains should still have reversible seats.
sorry fine m ost of thois v set bullshit better then the shit ooct
Nothing was ever wrong with these trains, had nothing to do about train safety and everything to do with preserving the driver and guard model....
I mean, literally every single party deemed the train safe including the independent safety assessor and Regulator..., the only person saying it wadnt was a hack paid by the rtbu....