Future Tramways in Sydney - Where would they go?
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- Опубликовано: 30 мар 2024
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As a Sydneysider the 333 upgrade to a tramline through oxford st should be a top priority. Oxford St is dying and dead compared to the vibrant nightlife it once had. the tramline and cycleway would revitalise the area and invite pedestrains into a friendly area which is full of bars cafes pubs and retail in a beautiful and historic part of the city, whilst also giving an upgrade for passengers wanting to cool off at bondi beach. Riding the 333 sucks, its always overcrowded and sweaty and driving in Bondi is a big fucking headache, especially in the Sydney heat. Unfortunately, brain rotting Nimbys have historically opposed any developments of cycleways, train extensions to Bondi Beach or cycleways so it has stayed stuck in the past of a car-centric elitist part of the city.
Great video, Sydney needs to return to its roots of a tram city and extend these lines, they used to run trams every couple of seconds through the city, and they destroyed it all.
How would you get LR down to Bondi Beach though? The gradient is very steep on Bondi Road and the forget reservation has been sold off.
@@kyletopfer7818 The video at 8:22 shows a good example. There also used to be 2 tram routes going to bondi beach before the 60s so I don't think the gradient should be an issue as it was a part of our city in the past, look out Sydney's old tram network for reference if you'd like
@@rubendragone112 I am well aware, I have done a LOT of reading on the subject.
1. Transport for NSW have said that Bondi Road is too narrow for stops and they refuse to allow the Viennese-style driver-over platforms seen in Melbourne, so you won't be able to have a stop on Bondi Road unless you do something creative.
2. The old ROW to get under Bondi Road and down to the Beach via Rowland Avenue has been sold off so you would need to aquire that property and dig out the old cutting which was filled in.
3. The route via Old South Head and Birriga Roads into Curlewis is slow, very windy, doesn't have as much development potential and is an extremely busy road corridor. I can't see that being rebuilt, you would be better off with a tunnel - remember tunnelling doesn't actually cost that much and gives much faster journey times, it is underground stations that make tunnelling expensive.
@@kyletopfer7818 1. True. 2. True. 3. True. Not that I know things, however, there are new tunnelling/boring machines that do as much work as the current ones, are made of cheaper products and move faster - the triumphrent. Should this development continue to evolve, tunnels like Bondi to Bondi Jn could be quite possible to do, and tram stops underground needn't be as elaborate as the metro ones.
Unfortunately governments don’t have much vision to look ahead and realise why they should keep hold of old alignments, this true for both trams and rail.
No reason why La Perouse shouldn’t already be under construction. The WestConnex mess was in part designed to ease pressure won Parramatta Road and Victoria Road, so if that was sincere, these should also get under way. The number of formerly grand building on those fume choked stroads now struggling to support dodgy massage shops and showrooms is a shockingly bad face of Sydney.
The residents of La Perouse are super protective of any kind of developments from my understanding. They've kicked back Meriton several times, can't imagine they want a tram line coming into their suburb either. ugh.
I sort of get that, but at the same time have no sympathy for it. Development or densification isn’t binary and connecting the area better with more sustainable public transport models shouldn’t automatically mean skyscrapers in every garden. If none of them drive into and out from the area, contributing to pollution and congestion elsewhere they might have a bit of a moral stance, but that seems unlikely to say the least. They live in a city of 5 million and growing. A growing population needs denser housing and better connectivity - and not by road.
A tram connection would benefit them. Increased density, done appropriately would too - the area’s nice enough in a suburban kinda way, but denser parts of the city have noticeably more life, support more local businesses and so on. It shouldn’t be something to fear
La Perouse is such a pointless area
The handful of LA Peruse residents do not warrant the expenditure. Lets house the homeless first
@@suave-rider where do you house them? Improved public transport will assist with development in these areas. Sydney can’t keep sprawling outwards, it needs to be building more med density housing in the inner west/east/north suburbs.
I spoke with some Maroubra residents about the light rail just prior to its opening and was told that the terminus would be Kingsford , despite an offer from the private sector to pay for an extension to Maroubra !
I heard Meriton offered to pay to have it go all the way to the development behind Westfield Eastgardens, but they only offered like 4mil which is nothing lol.
@@ccsaun Interesting !
As well as a tram to Bondi Beach, extending the L2 to Coogee Beach, mostly along the original tram route would be great. The only significant complication might be be a short tunnel from St Paul St along Dudley and Carr St to Byron St so as to manage the grade without losing the Carrington Rd Reserve, where the tram originally went. Disrupting car and bus traffic on Arden St would be difficult so terminating in the wide eastern end of Havelock Ave would make sense.
This Melbournian is excited at the prospect of Sydney getting back in the game of tramways in a big way!
Might spur our powers at be down here to invest more in our own system!
8:00 A minor alteration to your line: the gradient at the end of Bondi Road, just before it curves round to parallel the beach, is quite steep. That's why the original trams diverted down Denham Street then through a short tunnel under Bondi Road to rejoin that road as it entered the beach section. A new line would have to do the same.
One issue I do see is the parramatta to Liverpool proposal is that the light rail would not be in its own right of way for the entire journey because there are a number of areas that just share the road with normal traffic
They could change the bus lanes into a light rail line. One going north, and one going south. Hypothetically, they could still keep this as a bus lane, it would definitely help the growth of the area, but very low chance it will happen. Overall, I think, yes it would be hard because of the lack of right of way, but the light rail would definitely revive the area.
One I think you missed is the obvious (to me lol) extension of the Parramatta Light Rail from Benaud Stop north up Church Street/Windsor Road to Old Northern Road, and then East to Castle Hill. Essentially replacing the overcrowded and slow 600 Bus while upgrading the infrastructure and amenity around Northmead, Baulkham Hills, and Castle Hill.
Windsor road is not wide enough for Light rail .. bus services should be more frequent through .. especially when Parra play at Cumberland Oval.
@fittipaldi7326 the only way you'd get more buses to work on Windsor Road successfully (as in, not be drowned in car traffic) is a permanent bus lane. Which may as well be a tramway at that point.
@@fittipaldi7326Trams are not wider than buses - and they carry a lot more passengers.
@@BryanLikesCandy if they reduced Windsor road to 1 Lane cars and 1 lane light rail it would be a disaster. Winsdsor is still a major arterial feeding into James Ruse Drive.
There is spare land available on the north Eastern side of Windsor road but there would have to be significant land upzoning and acquisition to make it viable.
There is more chance of Old Windsor bus way becoming a light rail line feeding into Westmead.
But again this would reduce the flexibility of buses that Light Rail does not have.
@@jack2453 Trams cost 3 times the cost of trolley busses, and articulated trolley busses can be made to carray as many people as trams. Sydney needs new underground railways. Trams are a waste of money
The middle of Anzac road was used for trams years ago
The rails are still there down to UNSW at least, they're just under the tar and get exposed when they resurface it.
@@AutoReport1I reckon this is an urban myth or have you got a source? I have heard of this in the inner west but not along Anzac Pde
@@kyletopfer7818 I saw it with my own eyes when they resurfaced a section about 1990. I assume digging them out when service ended would have been too disruptive to traffic, so eventually they just got tarred over. When I saw them they were about half an inch below the new surface. Now if there is a section where they had to dig a trench through the road for pipe or cable maybe they'd cut out a short segment that was in the way, but otherwise it's still there. Doesn't make it cost effectively reusable either and may actually get in the way of laying new track.
@@AutoReport1 34 years is a long time, they may still be there I can't say but I know the only sections of track that were pulled up during the CSELR project were in George Street and some of these sections were sent to the Tramway Museum in Loftus for reuse so they can't have been in such poor knick back when the George Street tram lines (Leichhardt, Rozelle, Haberfield, Glebe, Balmain, closed back in 1958 or so which was a little before the Anzac Pde lines closed in 1961 but just after the North Sydney lines.
@@kyletopfer7818 any lines abandoned in the last 70 years in most of Australia and sometimes longer were usually left in place. A commercial operation may salvage track and ties, but government railways anywhere in the world usually don't unless a corridor is sold off for redevelopment. In which case ironically someone will point out that the people living in the houses they built on the old corridor now could really use a rail connection.
In general this old track even with new ballast, ties and bridges is no good for anything except light passenger rail, but they leave it there anyway. Since crown land is exempt from adverse possession claims I think a lot of people are unaware what they think is "their" land actually still belongs to the state government.
This is a great video and shows exactly what we need to do to fix our major streets in Sydney! Only thing I would change is moving the Iron Cove Bridge stop to Darling Street instead. There’s a lot more people living there with more shops and offices there. It can also provide an interchange to buses on Darling Street or a future tram line to Balmain, following the old line that used to be there.
Please keep doing more of these! I would love to see more! You’ve just got a new subscriber!
Excellent video, keep up the great work!
I have always thought Victoria Road desperately needs a light rail for the full length of it. The justification is that the North Shore and Northern lines are parallel. Getting from Ryde to Parramatta must be by bus or train from West Ryde to Strathfield and change for the Western Line. Very impractical. Now that the Parramatta Light Rail is about to open, the Victoria Road line could meet up with the Parramatta Light Rail at Rydalmere. The rest of it just as you've explained it. It would mean that you could take a tram all the way from the CBD to Parramatta and service all those transport black spots along the way.
bro you do a hell of a good job i love your work
I have pondered the idea of whether it would be possible or practical to connect the Sydney light rail system with the Parramatta light rail , and the idea of using the Victoria Rd corridor had not occurred to me ! Brilliant ! Instead I wrestled with the thought of branching off from Leichhardt towards Parramatta . The Victoria Road route would also provide a possible answer to the suggestion for a railway line on the northern side of the Parramatta River .
Would it use the steep Gladesville bridge?
@@JulianSortland This is an excellent point , which would require considerable thought to resolve ! Perhaps a new bridge could be built on the alignment of the previous Gladesville Bridge , in fact , this earlier bridge probably carried the former tram line . This could be verified by viewing a pre 1960s map , which I do possess ... somewhere . Of course , a major consideration is height clearance to allow shipping to pass beneath . PS : There are photogphs of trams using the old bridge , on Google , and this low level structure had an opening span for shipping to pass .
Not sure the Gladesville bridge is TOO steep for trams - but reinstating the former bridge would also work - since the shipping the new bridge was designed to clear (coal boats to Mortlake gasworks) no longer exists.
@@jack2453 Considering that the old trams used to climb the hill from the Spit towards Mosman , as well as from the Taronga Zoo wharf , the Gladesville Bridge incline may not be too steep. However the early trams on these routes were probably only single carriages , and certainly shorter and therefore lighter than today's light rail vehicles . I have been on an extremely crowded light rail tram travelling through Darling Harbour , and it sounded as if it was labouring under the load on a relatively flat stretch of track . 🙄
@@murraykitson1436 Absolutely. There seems to be a lot of armchair engineers who underestimate the capacities of the modern LRV.
This is a fantastic video! Would love to see the Paramatta Rd one built at some point, that would be absolutely transform my travel.
I would love the tramway along victoria rd but personally i don't think it should end at West Ryde.
Yep! 100% it should continue down Victoria Road to Ermington, link in to the Stage 2 Parramatta Light Rail and run through to Parramatta CBD. It can then utilise the depot at Camellia.
Victoria Road as LR might be too slow beyond Drummoyne or possibly Gladesville, the original line closed beyond Drummoyne fairly early (although to be fair that might have had something to do with the old Gladesville Bridge). Even the best, fastest LR lines with high amounts of grade separation struggle to achieve an average speed above about 20-25kmh. Without looking at the bus timetable for the route, I imagine this should be Metro or have measures to make it very fast on the Outer section in order to be competitive.
@@kyletopfer7818I mean, I live in the Ermington area, and Victoria Rd is blatantly just a waste of space. Six lanes of traffic and outside of peak hour it's barely got any cars on it (Kissing Pt Rd up to Timor Barracks has the same problem).
The 501 runs incredibly frequent services from parramatta straight to the city and is quite populated (In highschool I took it into the city during the holidays for a certificate course, as transportnsw recommended it over the train). Why not just turn that into a tram service through the median strip and the middle two lanes? Outer lanes can turn into parking-only in shopping districts (rather than the peak hour clearway it is now), god knows west ryde shops needs some pedestrianisation.
I certainly wouldn't complain about some metro, and have seen some ppl propose a metro stop in Ermington, but I don't think it's likely considering it's almost entirely residential. West Ryde could also have a metro stop added underneath the existing rail stop, but that doesn't really help any of the residents outside of the immediate west ryde area; the train already gets to the city in a reasonable time.
A tramway along the entirety of Victoria Rd that replaces the 501 would greatly increase capacity on the popular route, discourage non-local car usage, revitalise the dying businesses and help serve the new apartment blocks that are going up (which currently have pretty much no good transport; not even a convenient way to cross the road and catch a bus from the other side).
You could even *also* put a tramway from Parra light rail stage 1, down Kissing Pt Rd to Eastwood then Epping. and then link it to Victoria Rd tramway via the small spur of Kissing Pt that goes past Cowell's Lane Reserve. Although significant development would probably be needed to make this worthwhile.
I would be interested to see how the LR would go on the gladesville bridge, thats one hell of a steep grade !
@@supermario200 Just like Carlingford to Epping, it might be cheaper, easier, faster and less disruptive to tunnel it to be honest.
Great summary of potential. A few potential modifications for consideration/discussuion. 1. While Kingsford-La Perouse via the old Anzac Pde tram road would be straightforward, there would be a lot of demand if it picked up all tge development at Eastgardens. 2. What about the Epping-Carlingford missing link? 3. You could link the Victoria Rd route to the Parramatta Line2. 4. Needs more crosstown links e.g. Airport-Kingsford-Bondi J; Epping-Strathfield-Hurstville.
1) hopefully a metro station gets built somewhere east (potentially reaching LP too) which would allow the trams to feed the metro as opposed to being the only transport.
2) that would be very difficult to pursue as a tram line, better leave that as heavy rail.
3) perhaps
4) those longer lines would be far better as heavy rail, as seems to be the current strategy.
@@thetrainguy4 Fair enough. But a new heavy rail line for 3km from Epping to Carlingford?
For the Bondi Line, I think it would be worthwhile, and you would see the best value for money by starting with the Bondi Junction to Bondi Beach stretch. Ultimately most people on the 333 are trying to get from the city to the beach, and this stretch would fulfil that purpose as the rest of the distance can be achieved by the train.
Not being connected to the main network, you would need a stabling at Bondi Junction, but that could be achieved by having a sheltered shunting track long enough for two set (which would later form part of the line continuation into the city). Maintenance would have to occur on site, but only until the rest of the line is completed.
Having this line set up first would help people get used to the trams, and buy favour with the locals once they see its positive impacts and how it is less disruptive than the busses are.
Very informative!
Now, I don't live in the Northern Beaches, but I reckon that the B-Line and a million other buses simply won't do. I reckon it deserves some kind of rail access, whether in the form of Light or Heavy.
Great video! Your graphics were very helpful in explaining which areas of the city you were focussing on. With your proposed Victoria Rd route, I think this would be a downgrade versus the current bus service. The buses take barely 5 minutes from the city (Druitt St) to White Bay, whereas the tram route you’ve proposed would take at least 15 minutes. I think any tram route from Vic Rd would need to go on a more direct route via the old Glebe Island Bridge to be any chance of competing with current bus speeds. For this corridor, I think a rapid bus is a cheaper and better solution in the short and medium term.
One could change at The Bays to get the Metro to Hunter Street, that would be quicker still, but yes I see the point.
L1 and your proposed Victoria Rd line would both benefit fro. A short tunnel from Darling Harbour to Wenworth Park (about 400m)
Great video! From memory, the two bus Transit ways were designed to allow for a cheap/easy future conversion to light rail. My only suggestion is that building light rail all the way to rouse hill duplicates the NW Metro from Bella Vista to Rouse Hill, it might be better to convert the T-Way to Light Rail from Parra up until the Old Windsor Rd, Sunnyholt Rd and Memorial Ave intersection, then swing it right down Sunnyholt Rd right down into the Blacktown CBD, leaving Rouse Hill to Kellyville or even Bella Vista Station as a T-Way. Theres supposedly a reservation to continue the T-Way to Box Hill, so youd end up with a Box Hill to Bella Vista station T-way.
The other issue is that current journey times from the Kellyville area to Parra on the T-Way are pretty long especially past Constitution Hill - and from memory the busses arent at capacity, which makes me question if Light Rail would offer any real advantage to the current busses which have a 60 to 80km/h speed limit along the route - i think light rail would need to speed up journey time to justify the conversio.
I think the conversion to light rail should go the entire way to Rouse Hill, effectively replacing the 665 Bus. Capacity concerns are alleviated by merging the 663 and 664 Bus routes into a single Rouse Hill/Bella Vista Orbital Route, with transfers at Rouse Hill and Norbrik for the Light Rail and Rouse Hill and Bella Vista for the Metro. Journey times are faster with the better acceleration and braking of the light rail (and smoother ride) over the bus as well.
Duplicating a line is not an issue, in fact it complements service and provides redundancy should one of them fail especially during peak hour. Light rail also acts as a feeder service to the metro network, increasing ridership of both.
My actual serious idea for a tramway is a Chatswood to Manly link, as a way of forcing the Northern Beaches to have some kind of fixed link public transport. I don't have a full route and stops plan for this tramway, but the basic idea is starting at Chatswood Station, following Victoria Avenue west then Penhurst St north up to Boundary St. We follow Boundary St across the Roseville Bridge (integrating light rail into that bridge might be a nightmare, but there's enough parkland space nearby that we could move the rail into a side alignment and give it its own bridge).
We continue along Warringah Rd with stations at Forestville, the Northern Beaches Hospital, and Frenchs Forest, before leaving Warringah Rd at Beacon Hill Rd (we might want to do some fine tuning on this stretch so there can be a stop that serves Brookvale Oval). That takes us to a nice big station at the Warringah Mall, with lots of room for interchanges with a hypothetical Northern Beaches Metro station. After the mall, the trams would follow Pittwater Rd south, crossing Manly Creek, staying with Pittwater Rd as it turns east briefly at the roundabout, and sticking with it as it turns into Belgrave St, finally coming to a terminus right outside Manly Wharf.
Probably too steep for LR mate, and also likely too slow to be competitive sorry. The Beaches needs Metro, the early work done by Sydney Metro showed a Beaches line would likely have the highest demand ridership of any Metro corridor in the city including those under construction, so light rail would either be uncompetitive or overwhelmed by riders
It would probably be better to have a shorter route connecting to a future metro at Dee Why or brookvale running along Pittwater road, the grades getting across middle harbour would be a bit extreme
@@patrickc211 definitely Chatswood to Dee Why would be rad.
@patrickc211 @kyletopfer7818 The reason I propose this long of a line is mostly as a supplement to existing Metro plans. Most designs I've seen for a Northern Beaches Metro branch off from the M1 line after the tunnel under the harbour, and then roughly follow the A8 road north and east with stops in Cremorne, Mosman, Balgowah, Brookvale, Dee Why, and sometimes further north. And while I think that this plan is a great idea for Northern Beaches > City connection, it doesn't have any great interchanges with the rest of North Sydney or the western side of the Northern Beaches, nor does it have any interchanges with Manly itself. The Chatswood to Manly LR idea is basically a way of patching in a radial connection that serves the Forestville area *and* connects to Manly Wharf *and* gets people to Chatswood for northbound and westbound connections.
As for the gradients, I don't see a that many problem spots. The bridge over Middle Harbour would probably have to be higher up than the existing Roseville Bridge but there's lots of room to break the LR off from the road temporarily and build a dedicated tram bridge. This would be expensive but there's no cheap way to get the Northern Beaches into shape, and they desperately need the connection. Beacon Hill Rd is pretty steep but there's plenty of opportunities to turn southwards around there, all we really need is a way for the trams to skip the nasty intersection between Warringah and Pittwater Rds (or we could just rebuild the intersection to give the trams a priority route).
@@lachlanmcgowan5712 1) Firstly, they have ruled out branching of any of the Metro lines since that proposal you are talking about came up in 2014-16 or so. Victoria Cross station on M1 line was going to be built with stub tunnels to enable a future branch to the Beaches as you described, but this was scrapped when the decision was made not to branch Metro lines in Sydney. The original plan for branching by the way would have seen the Bankstown line branched twice (to Cabramatta and to Lidcombe) AND the Hurstville tracks on the Illawarra line AND the Airport tunnel to Revesby, that would have been a disaster, I’m glad they have ruled out branching.
2) A Beaches Metro will therefore not run into the Victoria Cross-Sydenham tunnel as it would now be far too disruptive to shut the Metro again and bore new stub tunnels. Even if it did though, your point about having bad connections to the rest of North Sydney doesn’t pass the sniff test - you would only need to travel to Victoria Cross then walk across the platform and board a train heading to Crows Nest or Chatswood. True about the Western side of Northern Beaches, but having Metro in place would allow you to reorientate the bus network for cross-town journeys and as feeders to the Metro line.
3) That leaves two options for a Beaches Metro and one option for a Beaches Suburban Rail line: reclaiming the eastern Harbour Bridge tracks that used to be used for trams for which there is an existing stub tunnel into North Sydney station, another Harbour Tunnel for which the best path has now been used, or branching the suburban network from St Leonards or North Sydney.
4) Regardless which option gets chosen, the absolute core of the NIMBY wealthy asshole North Shore / Northern Beaches elite are in the corridor between Neutral Bay-Cremorne-Mosman-Spit Junction-Balgowlah; this is some of the most expensive land in the city, and will be incredibly difficult to construct without having super deep stations; and this is also the shortest corridor with the B-Line BRT buses taking
La perouse one should be built right now.
Conspicuous by its absence, is the proposed LR route from Parramatta to Macquarie Park, which are Sydney's two largest strategic centres outside of the Sydney CBD. Parramatta City Council had undertaken a feasibility study for this route, which included extensions to Westmead and Castle Hill.
However, Transport for NSW in its wisdom completely ignored Parramatta City Council's recommended route from Parramatta to Macquarie Park via Eastwood along the wide Kissing Point Rd and Eastwood County Rd reservations from Dundas on the Carlingford Line and instead chose a route via Carlingford, which ultimately proved to be unviable. There was no mention of Epping. Parramatta City Council's feasibility study rejected a Carlingford/Epping route in the early stages of consideration of options. The government belatedly came to the same conclusion and hence why the current LR route will permanently terminate at Carlingford, with no prospect of it continuing to Epping, let alone to Macquarie Park.
A direct LR link from Parramatta to Macquarie Park via Eastwood is still a possibility, but with an amended alignment from Church St, North Parramatta to Kissing Point Rd, instead of from the Carlingford Line at Dundas.
The cost that you estimated is definitely way above the actual cost, especially with the la peruse one.😊
Thanks for the detailed video - just on the Green Square Light Rail: the City of Sydney had approved in Nov-23 the "Sustainable Sydney 2030-2050 Continuing the Vision" strategy which includes maps of a different route called the "Eastern Transit Corridor" (similar to the first map screenshot you showed in the Green Square Ligth Rail section of your video) - i.e. from Bourke St, Waterloo it turns into Phillip St and then goes to central either via Elizabeth St or Chalmers St. So closer to the 320 bus route from Bourke St onwards rather than the 304 bus route. Any thoughts on this route and potential stops in this case?
Carlingford to Epping
Living in the Maroubra area the trams should be returned through the original routes down Anzac Parade to La Par surely it makes sense too. My understanding was that the local government said they would not vote for the return of the trams due to trees being removed and major “disruption” during the build and that they are not needed. There was also a long term plan to get an airport link from Maroubra Junction to Eastgardens out to the Airport. Local government may also be worried about costs too, All projects blow out, Even with the best Project Companies… No idea how good this rumour is but I thought the recent Anzac Trams during there build in Europe had been made to the wrong track gauge. No idea how true that actually is. Bring the Trams back, Especially the north shore…
2:28 The final coast of the SELR was due to the need to remove the original tramlines in George Street and Anzac Pde at Kensington, which was quite a task. On the Anzac Parade section after Kingsford, it would be merely laying tracks, nothing to dig up.
The talking point "Sydney had one of the largest tramway networks in the WORLD" is repeated endlessly because it's on Wiki.
Sydney only had >250km trams (for reference Melbourne today has 250km) for about 15 years.
-London had 520km
-Berlin had 630km
-St Petersburg had 700km
-New York had 800km
-Buenos Aires had 850km
-Paris had 1100km
-Chicago had 1600km
-Los Angeles had 1770km
It had the largest network in the commonwealth outside London, that’s pretty impressive.
@@thetrainguy4 sure but "one of the largest in the world" is *very* misleading, there were at least 15 systems larger, and part of the reason it grew so large is poor planning - they knew a Beaches and an Eastern Suburbs Railway line were needed and even tried to build them several times before the second world war but never managed it, the Eastern Suburbs line was supposed to be open before they closed the tram lines but took almost 20 years after the final trams ran in the East.
Anyway other than that nice video, I'm not sure about some of the technical aspects eg. Parramatta Road and Bondi Road have some sections that are too steep for modern lines and I dunno about your stabling suggestions but I'm also not an expert.
Got some ideas, they're interesting I personally would love to see someone be bold with Light Rail and decide to make a tunnel crossing just for light rail OR regular rail.
Northern Beaches side doesn't get anything going on.
Hell they could even re-establish the Sydney Harbor Bridge crossing from Wynyard to North Sydney and all that.
But obviously rebuilding some of the old network would cost so much time, money, resources ect.
It's not viable currently, but if Light Rail keeps proving to be a good alternative to buses?, who knows?
Also I hope you submitted these route ideas potentially to the NSW government and just told them.
"I have some ideas for you guys as an enthusiast"
EXPRESS trams should be introduced in the PEAK HOURS. Circular Quay, Chalmers Street, then Moor Park and Randwick, only. . Altthough there are a couple of extensions that make sense . . . . . trackless rams and guided buses, these days, can have he same capacity as Light Rail. Separate ROW and stations can be built for about 1/3 of the cost of Light Rail!
Express trams make little sense on CBDSE as speed limits are low and stop times already pretty short. George Street is at capacity already so they’d just get stuck behind regular trams.
Trackless trams cost about the same as a regular tram, are a proprietary system and nothing on rubber tyres has more capacity than a tram. They still have a place.
Parra road desperately needs revitalizatiom and a tramway would be amazing but that could only happen if that section of the M4 becomes toll free because otherwise theres basically no way to go west out past oly park without a massive detour.
Sometimes you have to force the hand. If you take over the lanes for public transport, the traffic goes - they pay the toll, they take the tram/bus, or they stay home. Simple.
As usual you forgot the Northern Beaches where we desperately need a better and faster service!
Northern Beaches is best served by heaby rail but we all know the locals won't like it.
@@thetrainguy4 would prefer a Metro as we sold all space for the heavy rail
@@reneschneiderAustralia Heavy rail is both metro and suburban, just fyi.
@@thetrainguy4 - thanks for that.
To add for parra, since we can convert tways to into tram lines (such as the north west and south west b-way).
L6: Carlingford to NW Tway to rouse hill via parra
L7: Sydney Olympic Park to Westmead via parra
L8: Liverpool to Parra (think its too long to do a though service)
Universities are such a major driver of public transit, it's bonkers to me that there aren't more people talking about the Parramatta Road line proposal.
9:35 This map just makes me really want to extend your West Ryde line a tiny bit further to connect to Parramatta Light Rail, unifying the two systems. It doesn't necessarily make sense to do so, but it looks so appealingly close!
Covering the full Victoria Road corridor would make sense. (which is where the parra metro should have been)
Talk of univerisities just reminds me of the perverse decision to go for Waterloo rather than Sydney U for the SW metro.
I use L2, L3 all the time and am local to the east and you missed the most logical connector that is needed (and we are constantly stuffed trying to transfer between the lines). Start at L2 Randwick, down high street, left on Anzac Pde, Follow to Kingsford Juniors, then Right Sturt Street through General Bridges Cres, down Gardners rd. (Already mostly designed for trams) towards Botany Rd (Future interchange), Left Borke Street Mascot, Mascot Station (possible onto L1 in future).
You'd replace the 358 and cut down the 343, until a direct service via Botany rd (to city) is formed, replace most of 390X (almost all with Maroubra connection (these are extremely busy bus routes)
You've now connected the L2 to L1 (using a massive amount of line already in place), possibly future Kensington Metro also, to Botany Rd (major connector) and Mascot heavy rail (and airport is now easy access). If you go to L1, you've created a massive loop that would complete change the Eastern Beaches, Eastern Suburbs, Inner East, Inner South East and Inner West.
For those interested to connect the L2 to L3 vis UNSW (Also connecting top and bottom campus) would only require 853 metres of new track. To connect Randwick to Mascot station via Kinsford is just under 5kms.
Kingsford to La Perouse would be an extra 8.40kms of track and would have very little use compared to a connector line (above)
Another good connector point could be southern cross drive Eastlakes (room on each side) and have this as the starting point for the inner south east line (Formally connect all the City of Sydney lines)
A LR link between east and inner west would be great. An alternative would be to use Wentworth Ave rather than han Gardeners Road. More room for tracks and could include the Eastgardens apartments and possibly Maroubra J.
There was talk a few years ago about extending the L3 down to La Perouse with a branch heading off to the airport as well but that was to be completed in 2045!! This was a year or so after the L3 line opened and people were talking about it like it was a done deal and definitely would happen...
Great efforts on great video, but there are somethings you have overlooked
1. Former Depots: Waverley bus Depot can reconstructed as the former a Tram Depot and same with Supa Centre Moore Park but just put the Centre on top of the Depot, now new depots: On Parramatta Rd between Gordon and Mallett St and on Victoria Rd between The Avenue and Osgarthorpe Rd
And Finally the length of Stops, nothing over 430m otherwise it should be considered just a metro train station and nothing under 300m again should just be considered a bus stop that’s all.
Overall great video.
Great analysis and thanks for producing. Also interesting to read everyone's comments.
Just sharing my thoughts:
- Missed opportunity and the business case is there to extend to at least Little bay, extensions are cheaper than starting from scratch.
- The T80 should stay a bus way, it also has very sharp turns and will not get the patronage needed for a positive business case
- With the cost and interruptions at ground level during the construction phase. The case for just digging tunnels improves.
- Once the again the northern beaches has been left out. But its topolgy is very poor for any sort of rail - heavy or light. For this region it would be better to just build the NB tunnel and put buses into it. The problem is, Wynyard bus stop is at capacity. The alternative is to direct traffic from the region to Chatswood. However there is still a major river to cross
New terminus for Northern beaches buses would be the Cahill Expressway - then a stop at the Rocks, then convert the two easternmost lanes of the harbour bridge to 2way busway (one lane already is) ,reinstate the old tram Bridge to N. Sydney, and then off to the coast!
Can you do a similar video on light rail in Canberra?
Good routes. They should extend the Randwick to Coogee too. And the La Perouse line should return back through Bunnerong Road stopping at Matraville Hillsdale Eastgardens and turn at Maroubra road Pagewood to reconnect back to Anzac Parade and Maroubra Junction, effectively completing the loop.
Rezoning and densification along this route, Matraville, Hillsdale, Eastgardens, Pagewood, Maroubra road, Maroubra Junction would increase patronage significantly.
Of course one must factor in the future plans of the East Sydney metro extension. Work most likely won't begin until after the late 2020s
What about converting the original Milson's Point railway to light rail?
Tram from Bondi Junction train station to the beach would be more plausible and would use existing trains, or extending the Randwick line to Coogee, or Kingsford to Maroubra. If anyone has ever tried catching a bus to any eastern suburbs beach it's horrid. Definitely enough tourist and local demand to warrant it.
i have 1 small issue with the Wynyard to west ryde. why not use the glebe island bridge instead?
I expect most Victoria Road passengers would transfer to/from metro at The Bays.
very interesting. You should consider doing this for newcastle and the gold coast especially as the glink is being expanded and has expansion plans left right and center
GLink is one of the most exciting rail projects in the country at the moment, the Gold Coast is a bit of a sprawling mess but has good bones. If I recall correctly their plan is basically identical to this video, upgrading bus lines to light rail once they reach capacity. Once the main heavy and light rail lines reach tweed east-west integration should be comparatively strsightforward
I think you're fairly well on the mark with your suggestions. Australian politicians are generally genetically unable to plan well because they're unable to think past the next election cycle, fueled by a fickle electorate with short term memories and self-interest.
Personally, I would like all essential public transport only in the hands of the State. We need to remove the profit system so that the needs of society are primarily met, not someone's bank account. I would like to see the second airport line properly connected around to Liverpool way, Mascot airport line and the city, navigating as a loop back around to Parramatta. With the weird connection to St Mary's, the connection to Rouse Hill should be sped up.
If only they'd build that VFT between Melbourne - Brisbane. It could stop once at the second airport, then the Newcastle region before shooting up north to mid north NSW and Queensland.
I'm no local (closest I've been to Sydney is Egypt), but it would seem to me that with these proposals you'd end up with two separate LRT/tram systems that would not be that far from eachother. I.e. add in an extension or new line in the right place and the tracks all connect into one system. Which would be nice for the ability to transfer trams between the different depos and lines.
Good point.... but a few comments. The (excellent) Paris tram network is not fully connected; and the former (pre-1960) Sydney network had a number of unconnected bits and vehicles were moved between them via the suburban rail network which used the same gauge.
@@jack2453You make good points too! For the proposed Sydney network in the video the gap is a long one. Possible to connect, but only worth it if the line created would be a decently used line.
The Parisian non-connected tracks *are* very interesting. Porte de Choisy and Porte de Versailles are to good examples of this. I would have connected, but they've made a deliberate choice not to connect them. And it obviously works. hm.
I'd still go for connecting them. But it clearly can work well to not connect them.
@@GustavSvard There is a large heavy rail network in Sydney separate from the existing tram network that could be used for moving trams around the city.
That rouse Hill to parra on the t line is surely a no brainer would it match bus speeds?
I believe there might be an extension from the currently under construction Hunter St station that might end at La Perouse but it's likely it wont be constructed and completed by 2056
The Bondi one would be great!
I remember back to the 1940s when our tram network served the inner CBD, Down to La Perouse. Down to Bondi Beach Also, over to Top Ryde, Chatswood up to the Spit, Then Manly to Narrabeen. So much money frittered away in the ensuing time! I wonder if in the years to come, some bright spark will decree that all the current installations are useless and must be ripped up?
if you're doing Victoria rd, take it all the way to Parramatta dont stop at west ryde. something also needs to be done about north/south on Lane cove rd from Pymble/gordon to sutherland.
The Parra Stage2 runs parallel to Victoria Road - and is only about 1km short of West Ryde.
@@jack2453 agreed, however it is not direct into Parra so changing to PS2 would just add 30min or more.
With the statement of no space, there is a random concrete vacant spot held by the nsw government before annandale so a depot can be built lol, tway conversions are not feasible due to harsh gradients they wouldn't be able to cheaply
In Medellin in Colombia, there is a tramway system, which is perhaps more flexible and more economical to build.
The tram runs on one central line with overhead wires, plus the carriages have tyres to allow for balnce etc,
It is remarkably flexible and has bendy carriages, and would be far quicker to build and at a lower cost/kilometre.. Just a thopught
The issue with Translohr (I assume?) is that it cuts grooves into the road which are quite costly to repair, and it’s a proprietary system which is more expensive than it needs to be.
Nice thoughts but you should recommend lines that would improve things (for instance, are you sure that trams/LR have more capacity than buses?). For routes to the CBD, first find somewhere for the terminus and a route there to carry however many trams/hour you want to run. As for Victoria Rd, there's no way you could interrupt traffic for a year while tracks were built. I could go on .....
Trams most certainly have more capacity than buses, not even a competition. People said the same thing about George Street and it worked fine, induced demand works both ways.
@@thetrainguy4 Trams don't have more capacity than buses. Buses on dedicated busways are comparable with off-road light rail. Trams on roads can be worse than buses because of their inability to circumvent obstacles. Sydney's expensive CSELR can carry only 6900 pax per hour each way. That's less than buses used to carry. Running a few more trams to boost the capacity isn't much use because conflicts in George St start to bite (Hay St, Bridge/Grosvenor intersections). The reason George St "works so well" is that cars were banned; this could have been accomplished overnight without the need to spend $3 billion on switching from bus to tram.
For an example of what can go wrong at Bridge St, see ruclips.net/video/Oa20UR0GQv0/видео.html
Perhaps we should all grind to a halt under the traffic then.
Penrith to St mary's light Rail would be awesome, it'll link with the St Marys Metro station
Are any of these tramways better off as underground metro or rail lines?
Not really, some people advocate for an Epping - Parramatta tram but I think that is better as heavy rail.
@@thetrainguy4 Epping to Parramatta should be serviced by the Carlingford Light Rail down Carlingford Road.
For Heavy Rail, a flyover should connect North Strathfield to the Main Western Line running to Parramatta, followed by a right turn under the Parramatta Aquatic Centre to link up to the line to Campbelltown around Merrylands or Liverpool. Then you can run a heavy rail service - limited stops or otherwise - that stops Hornsby, Epping, North Strathfield, Granville, Parramatta, Liverpool, & Campbelltown.
I know. If wishing made it so!
@@thetrainguy4Lots of these lines would be better by heavy rail - but we have to work with the time and the money we have available. 30 years and $10bn to build metro from Epping to Parramatta or 3 years and $500m for LR from Epping to Carlingford. To meet climate targets and avoid slow death by traffic congestion we need lots of stuff fast even if it's second best.
Surely you fill the gap connect the parra section to city section from Melrose to west ryde only a few km
I think La Perouse is ultimately planned to have its own metro service. The next light rail needs to connect Sydney L1 to Parramatta L2.
Rouse Hill to Nth Richmond......
Then possible follow bells line of road to Lithgow. Open up west and give two options to Sydney with existing rail network from Lithgow and add new options
Would cost, however, the problem of blue mountains forcing Sydney north and south, this could open up the west and expand endless possibilities
Both heavy and light rail lead to higher density living. Routes needs to be to or through places where that is actively sought or well tolerated. That rules out any affluent areas who don't want the 'riff-raff' moving in.
Congratulations for at least considering more around Central Sydney (and by that I mean the greater Sydney population centre, now just east of Parramatta), but don't forget there are major centres further west, some of which have densely populated patches. Servicing Penrith's inner city area and the busy Mulgoa Rd eatery, clubs, sports, ski / water parks and entertainment strip to its immediate south is an example.
Penrith, Liverpool, and Camden/Campbelltown all have populations over 200,000. Blacktown has over 400,000. People often consider them being far too lightly populated for light rail, yet the Eastern suburbs with 260,00 or Parramatta with 270,000 are considered appropriate.
The other possibility is looking for places with a corridor that would be easy to use. Converting busways is one (provided current bus operations are stretched to service it). Other possibilities are along corridors for canals, some power easements and freight corridors, like the existing L1. (I note that the proposed Western Sydney freight line is using this approach, using the Warragamba water supply easement for a significant part of the way.)
Hey, I've just had this idea on my mind for a while, would it make sense to extend the Northwest T-way to Windsor or McGraths Hill?
In the first minute it shows a tram on a train track... does it share track space with trains. If so, I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often as often its difficult to get trams into the best places without badly interrupting traffic.
No. It used to be a freight line however the yard it served closed so the line was gradually converted to tram standards.
Everywhere
Next question
i think this was a very good video and good lines however parramatta road i dont think should be built because i dont think trams could acommodate the amount of people travelling on parramatta road plus people will probably just end up taking other routes but the t-way transit lines and the eatern suburbs line you suggested should defenitely be built
Sydney really made a massive mistake by getting rid of its trams / I hope people with connections see this video. I think a tram line to the northern beaches would also be a great idea / I'm looking forward to seeing the old tram tunnels near Wynyard station as part of Vivid
Good luck driving a light rail down Drummoyne onto Gladesville Bridge - don’t know if you’ve seen the elevation change but unless they built a new bridge there’s no way that is getting built
Agree. Better for the Victoria Rd corridor to be a metro line, but extending from Top Ryde under the Hornsby Plateau ridge to Eastwood, Carlingford, North Rocks and Baulkham Hills.
What about a tram to manly beach
how is the T way at paramatta different to the obahn in adelaide
Doesn’t need special guidewheels
@@thetrainguy4 which is better
You should make a video about bringing back Brisbanes trams; Brisbanes metro isn’t a bad idea but it would have been better as a tram.
Why not extend the tram over an EL?
they should add a extra tram line from Randwick to Alexandria the amount of kids catching the bus from all the schools there is shocking
My slightly silly proposal for the tramways are two short, probably incredibly expensive extensions to the L2 and L3. I call them the "artist's extensions" because they are both exclusively to serve some of inner Sydney's artistic hotspots which are just a little bit far from the city train stations.
The basic idea is this: we start by extending the Circular Quay end of the L2/L3 along Albert St to Macquarie St. At Macquarie St, L3 turns north and heads for the Opera House (depending on where the line's terminus is, there could be one intermediate station between Circular Quay and Opera House, serving the Botanic Gardens and the towers on the eastern side of Circular Quay). Ideally, we could turn the private parking underneath the Opera House's front steps into a balloon-looping tram station, but that might have too low a ceiling clearance for the trams. The alternatives are a reversing-sidings station at the bottom of the Opera House front steps, or a reconfiguration of the roundabout at the north end of Macquarie St into a balloon loop station.
Meanwhile, L2 turns south at Macquarie St. After crossing Bridge St there is a station which serves the Sydney Conservatorium. The trams then turn eastwards at Shakespeare Place into a station that serves the State Library, and continue along that street as it turns into Sir John Young Crescent. As Sir John Young Crescent approaches the underpass below Art Gallery Rd, the trams go up a viaduct and turn southwest, running on the west side of Art Gallery Rd for a short distance and coming to a stop at a reversing sidings station outside of the Art Gallery.
This project would be tremendously expensive and benefit a comparatively small number of people, but as a starving artist with bad legs, I've always been annoyed by how the Opera House is just slightly too far from Circular Quay.
To be completely honest, I think Sydney should rebuilt the remaining tram lines it removed back in the 60s so then it could have a good public trans system That’s my opinion
Security issues would be a problem with Lapa better to stop at Little Bay.
Honestly have been saying the transit ways between rouse hill - Parramatta and the Liverpool to Parramatta upgraded to become new light rail routes and help place what are now mostly normal buses to be placed back onto other bus routes. Furthermore the rouse hill- Parramatta yeah is sorely underused and an upgrade to light rail just makes sense.
Though I would argue that the blacktown to rouse hill/Parramatta section should also be converted purely because it is heavily underused and the traffic ont he roads around there are so clogged it's not funny. This will enable Parklea markets to be redeveloped (which the owners do want to do according to local papers a few years ago) and would enable more people in the blacktown area to join the metro and ease some crowding at blacktown station and the T1 western line
The trams and Sydney are so slow. They have to resolve this problem and patronage will improve.
Patronage is already unbelievably high
Forget Bondi beach..how is it going to work.. demolish a few houses??
surrey hills? or surry hills
so spend between $12 and $20 billion east of Burwood and less than $2 billion west of Burwood, sounds like the way to go
This comes down to the big issue. The eastern lines would have great cost- benefits, but are hard to justify from a social justice pov given the generations of under investment in the West.
I think governments will be watching the outcomes of Brisbane Metro with bated breath, given how much has already been talked about putting in a trackless tram on Parramatta Road.
Trackless trams are a gadgetbahn which were already investigated by TfNSW for PLR stage 2 but rejected due to the low cost benefits and proprietary nature of the technology.
Brisbane Metro is not a trackless tram, it is a regular bus with fancy branding.
@@thetrainguy4 Brisbane metro has significant advantage in that it uses an existing concrete right of way that isn’t susceptible to rutting like an asphalt road. Upgrading Parramatta Road and Victoria Road will have significant disruption to improve the durability of the road. Brisbane metro aren’t regular busses and have more in common with Newcastle light rail. If you have to start pouring concrete along the whole alignment then light rail should start to become attractive.
@@thetrainguy4 Brisbahe style metro-bus has a lot of potential on some of these routes e.g. Victoria Rd and Oxford St - and Edgecliff to Watsons Bay.
You sound like a 19th century English gentleman from London
Just extend the heavy rail from Bondi Junction to Bondi Beach !! (With Mr Packer's permission)
And further to Rose Bay, with stations at Bondi Rd, Bondi Beach and North Bondi.
@@exray1 How about onwards under the heads & on to Newport Beach!!??
I would love to see this as a pc simulator.
It is in a PC simulator! The L1 is!
@@TrainsForNSWVlogs what is the pc simulator called and can it be bought online? Can you please supply more information l live in the uk although I have spent 8 visits to Sydney 2016 was the last time 1994 was the first.
@@nigel6446 trainz
@@nigel6446 ruclips.net/video/dGtBOVLNoTE/видео.htmlsi=fI6z1ewT42Tyumj0
Melbourne has the largest tram network in the world and youre telling sydney use to have an even bigger network??? 💀💀
How did they fumble this bad
Yes, Sydney's tramway network was bigger. In the immediate post-way years when private car use was accelerating and because Sydney's generally narrow streets inhibited shared use, the decision was made to progressively close down the tram network and replace it with buses, which for the most part followed the original tram routes. They could have retained the La Perouse route from Kingsford via Maroubra Junction with some upgrades, which had its own ROW. There was also a tram ROW through Kensington, which is now used by the current system.
The extension of the current LR from Kingsford to Maroubra Junction along the original ROW is still a possibility and I don't know why the then government didn't do it in the first place. Beyond Maroubra Junction to La Perouse, it's debatable whether the LR line should continue, or whether it should be an extension of the proposed SE Metro with an interchange at Maroubra Junction..
How about affordable housing you forgot to mention that in your video mate
The light rail is a big mistake. It will cost billions to built and bring nothing to traffic solutions in Sydney. Light rail competes with busses and cars for space and are more expensive. If you need to change something with trams it requires expensive road works, if the tram breaks down the whole line is out. If the bus breaks down , the other busses keep on going. To make a real difference in traffic one needs to go below ground or above it
The Northern Beaches needs to be fixed
Bondi Beach should be serviced by a new extension of the eastern suburbs train line....why would you build a tram on already crowded congested streets?
Because it will reduce congestion...
@@thetrainguy4 Dies the 333 bus reduce congestion? Bondi Junction to Bondi Beach should be a train line. Any self respecting European transport authority would advocate that.
@@PeFePT Sure- in an ideal world there would be a train station, but I can't see that happening unfortunately. I reckon a tram is more likely.
@@PeFePTAny self respecting European transport operator would have trams AND trains.
How about improving the Southern Highlands to make it more efficient rather then spending more billions on Sydney. NSW does have regions which are forgotten about.
Because 5 million people live in Sydney, a few hundred thousand at most live in the much larger Southern Highlands. Of course Sydney gets most of the spending, it’s where most of the people live…
@@thetrainguy4We need both. Sorting out the bends the Southern Highlands would be great for housing development - and would make trains to Canberra viable.
maybe where they USED to go???????
bendy busses are called articulated busses
And you spell buses without a double s.
@@jack2453 I don't care
@@tangiers365 Good. In that case we'll go on calling them bendy buses. 😺
@jack2453 They're called articulated buses you freak
@jack2453 they're called articulated buses but it is your perogative to sound articulate or not!
I can’t believe none of you see it
The light rail terminates at the juniors at Kingsford, why? What’s there besides the juniors?
It’s not what you know, it’s who you know
Go you buckin funnies
🥳🥳🥳🥳
Way too focused on the CBD and Parramatta
New tramways are a waste of money, costing in excess of 3 times the cost of trolley busses which can have the same passenger capacity if articulated. Where the passenger demand is higher than a tram or trolley buss its much better value for money to build an underground large loading gauge railway.
Trolley buses do not have the capacity of trams and are less efficient.
@@thetrainguy4 Modern trolley busses are capable of being designed to carry the same number of passengers as a tram.
@@thetrainguy4 The efficency difference is minimal and articulated trolley busses can be designed to have the same capacity as trams.
@@terryflynn8830 The efficiency of a tram is 10 times lower than that of an electric bus. There is no way any bus could be designed with a crush of 400 people. You do not know what you are talking about.
Trams are not 10 times more efficent compared to trolley buses according to a study of Rome's transport system. It concluded that on most lines the trolley buss was cheaper overall to run and maintain. The chinese have built an articulated bus that has a capacity of 300 passengers.
Since the light rail has caused traffic congestion in Sydney and other areas
It is costing us productivity losses more than $1.5 billion per year
No brain project
This is a brutal facts
Light rail has eased traffic congestion in Sydney, increases productivity and is far better for the economy than an equivalent number of cars. It does not loose us $1.5bn per year, it costs less than $100m per year to operate.
Your brutal facts are all bunkum.
So not true. Sydney LR has been massive success - the congestion has been caused by Westconnex.
It just demonstrates what a terrible policy it was to remove the tram network of Sydney.. now you are spending Billions to recreate what you destroyed all those years ago.... while Melbourne did the smart thing and kept it's trams.... Look at what you have lost... a world famous tram depot at Bennelong Point and replaced it with some lowly community hall!!!
No wonder people are voting with their feet and moving to Melbourne!
Suffer in ya jocks Sydney!!
This global trend to build trams is stupid and wasteful. Instead of wasting hundreds of millions, ripping up roads, destroying businesses in the process, they could have applied electric busses. They are far more flexible because they can go anywhere, not needing to run on rails. I reckon in another 30 years they’ll be ripping all the rails out again.
Trams are more efficient and have higher capacity. They have a place still.
Trams are being built (or in many places re-built) because they have been proven sensible by the places that kept them (Melbourne, Zurich, Vienna, etc.) 🙂