It is interesting to observe how strongly the god concept is so difficult for people to relinquish. The emotional connection that people develop with the god concept is something that they become reliant on for meaning and purpose. They sense they would be lost if they gave it up completely. Yet, there are so many examples of people who have given up their god concept and flourish afterward. One would think that should help them find the courage.
@@davidmosesperez I was 11 and attending Bible camp when I came to the conclusion that Christianity did not make sense. I had spent that summer pondering and asking questions. It really is not that difficult to see through the irrationality of it all. I had not yet been indoctrinated to the degree that I was already emotionally dependent on Christian mythology, which allowed me to use my nascent critical reasoning skills to question the core beliefs/doctrines.
@semidemiurge well... I certainly make no attempt to deny your experience - how insulting to you if I even tried. I went on much of the same experience and have come to a different conclusion about theism. I am certainly NO American evangelical, but I am a theist and my lens of has been a more progressive christian spirituality that I look thru. you sound well informed, intelligent, and quite self-aware. you have my full respect. you do you, fully.
@@davidmosesperez Yes, that's more or less how I look at it too. Though I grew up in a church that never was staunchly Evangelical, it's hard to avoid Evangelicalism's influence in our culture altogether.
I would love as a first step, to see the Bible arranged in the order in which the books were written, to change the overview, and give a clearer context. And to have history and culture and purpose explained at the beginning of each book. To me it would go a long way towards increasing understanding.
What did we lose by fixing the text of Scriptures? Scripture was an evolving tradition for hundreds of years, and then it got fixed. What if Scripture returned to being a process rather than a fixed thing, reflecting new experiences of the faith community - like physics' new cosmology, the Holocaust, evolution, democratic and egalitarian movements?
Yo do that you have to admit there is no god and the bible is just the thoughts of the people and we already have laws to express the thoughts of the people
I think deconstruction is just a term made up for getting rid of things you don't like in the bible, especially if it says something against things you are actually doing. It's also a way to say everyone (LGBTQ, etc) is ok, and now you can be looked at as 'good' to many people and avoid persecution. But Jesus said if you truly believe in Him, you will be persecuted. I knew of a pastor going down the deconstruction road who wound up questioning the very resurrection of Jesus, without which there is no gospel.
thanks for the comment Keith and I fully respect your thoughts. however, for myself, I have come to a different conclusion and find your thoughts a bit simplistic and apart from reality, history, and the general christian experience. I take the Bible so seriously because it's such a miraculous book, that there is no way I can take it literally. it is took wonderful and too inspired to be pinned down with such constraints. thanks for writing.
Watching the documentary about Moses, i saw you explain the burning bush according to one Jewish opinion. As an Orthodox Christian, we see the burning bush as the womb of the Theotokos who was, by God's protection able to conceive God in the flesh without hurt.
@Garyp.9073 - For you to say , " The Bible is not written for unbelievers" brings up the dilemma as to how is an unbeliever ever to change without Scripture. (Rom 10:17) If you feel that the Bible is inspired by God then you must accept this undeniable truth written in Rom 15:4.
People come to God because God draws them without a Bible. The Bible only points to the true logos. Jesus Holy spirit draws, teaches, and comforts. China, Muslim countries, etc.
People converted to the faith before the New Testament was written. People across the globe have converted without literacy and access to the Bible for centuries, right on through to today.
It is not necessary as long as you admit they are fairy stories but is necessary as long as you insist it's the truth. We had a bunch of literal stories that one by one have been changed to metaphorical as science proved them impossible and oh yes the ones that are left are still literal ho ho ho.
If everything you see, experience, and know can be put into question then the guardrail can only be logic. So you need to drop the bible and start at zero. What is god? Mental construct? Does he exist or not - can we ever know it? Can almighty even be used when almighty is no definition at all? Is there only one etc. Basic is logic that is the only constant thing.
@downenout8705 - actually, I don't see it that way. it's two people who embrace both kataphatic theology and apophatic theology when it comes to Christian spirituality. That the understanding of God comes thru our construct of words and thoughts... and God is also so immense, that is, our understanding has limits and God is beyond any words or understanding of God. It leaves room for both, thus we are BOTH theists. thanks for the comment and for weighing in.
@@davidmosesperez It's tongue in cheek, however I see no good reason why the supposed creator of everything isn't apparently capable of communicating with perfect precision and perfect clarity.
Supernaturalism was always a childish approach to the Bible. The Bible itself does not need magic or the supernatural, and merely assumes a natural God who controls nature through natural law. Only our common human ignorance leads us to demand the supernatural -- like an isolated jungle tribesman who sees a smartphone for the first time. A smartphone is only magical to the ignorant. Arthur C. Clarke's Third Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Yes, God is Love. But, He is also Justice (unless you think He has no problem with eg murder, abortion, stealing, adultery etc). He is Eternal. Therefore both His Love and His Wrath are eternal. ONLY an Eternal Holy Person could pay the eternal price incurred by human wrongdoing (sin) before an Eternal Holy God. JESUS DID THAT…FOR US. All we need do is turn away from our sins (a personal choice) then engage with a gradually transformative life-work (fully enabled by God’s Grace) and BELIEVE THE GOOD NEWS. The Cross is not complicated. Nor is The Gospel…unless men make it so. These men are honest, well intentioned, intelligent and eloquent. They are also EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. Flee from their errors…hold fast to childlike Faith in Jesus Christ, The Son of God, The Second Person of The Holy Trinity, Who died on the Cross for our sins and Who rose from death in Glorious Resurrection. SALVATION IS FOUND IN HIM ALONE.
thanks for your comment Stuart and both Pete and I are very familiar with your biblicistic viewpoint - we were both in it for years. however, I've reached a point where I don't see it that way any more. and really, you give us too much power and influence -- we are hardly dangerous. if you actually knew me, had a conversation with me, you would see that is not so. thanks for taking the time to write and share your thoughts.
@@davidmosesperez I understand your position David, and I appreciate your honesty. I know you mean well. Obviously neither you (nor Pete) are a personally dangerous individual (on the contrary, you both seem very pleasant!). What I’m actually referring to is the very real DANGER your ideas pose. Our Salvation is found in Christ’s Self-Sacrificial Atonement…that alone…and your drift towards what sounds like some vague form of Unitarian Universalism (or at least a departure from a clear confession of Christ’s Divinity and His Saving Work upon Calvary) is a perilous endeavour that may adversely affect many.
@@stuartallen8684 - well, if your evangelical theology is working for you - to make you a person that is more loving, more compassionate, and creates a wonderful connection with you and God - by all means stay with it and spread it. however, for many, evangelical fundamental biblicistic theology is not working any more, and they have found a different connection to Christ and the Bible than the relatively newer faith you speak of. all my best to you and keep watching.
@@davidmosesperez Dear David…actually I’m Catholic (ex-Evangelical…didn’t even become a Christian until I was 49!)…so, mine is ancient belief. Now, I’m neither scholar nor theologian. But it seems to me that Christus Victor, Satisfaction, Moral Exemplar and Penal Substitution theories of Atonement aren’t contradictory at all…they’re complimentary. I’m Catholic because I believe in the True Presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament (proven by numerous Eucharistic Miracles around the world…you only need Google that for evidence, we even know Jesus blood group now!) And also I’m Catholic because I believe that if Jesus is my Brother, and His Father is my Father, then His Mother must be my Mother too…hence I love the Blessed Virgin Mary and venerate (not worship) Her in Her God-Given Glory. It’s a Family thing! If you’re searching for new and fresh understanding PLEASE, I BEG YOU, read ‘True Life in God’ (Vassula Ryden)…you will find it there, both ancient and new, traditional yet fresh. It’s a private revelation given by God (our God is not silent) to a locutionist named Vassula Ryden, an Orthodox lady. 1 John 4:1-2 tells us that where Christ is confessed ‘come in the flesh’ there the Spirit of God speaks…and He is confessed ‘come in the flesh’ in that revelation (in a locution printed on page one of the large single volume edition…where Jesus is speaking, Sept 27 1986) so we can be 100% sure the revelation is genuine and of God. It is a Love Letter David…an open, unveiled outpouring of great beauty. It also expresses concerns for the church. Personally, I believe it is the small scroll in Rev 10, or a reflection of it. Sweet to the taste because it is God’s Word, bitter to the stomach because it’s not what Evangelicals would necessarily want to hear. God’s Love is truly made manifest in that revelation (you should see how Jesus speaks about His Mom! His Words reveal His Heart…and it’s Sublime!) That Heart is ours David…gifted to us in sheer Grace. I understand that you have questions (we all do)…but PLEASE, I BEG YOU, at least read ‘True Life in God’ to see if there are answers there for you. Vassula writes what she hears God (all Three Holy Persons) speak, her hand guided slowly and carefully by her Holy Guardian Angel (yes, they’re real too). Many have panicked because of that (the handwriting) suspecting the trickery of the foe. Some have even spoken unwisely as a result. But we need have no fear. 1 John 4:1-2 is clear, we have been given that infallible litmus test of truth…and Our Lord Jesus Christ made a point of saying ‘I lived on earth among you, in flesh’ very early in this revelation (Sept 27 1986) so as to confirm it’s authenticity and put to rest any fears of enemy trickery. David, please, please, at least read it. Yours in Christ, Stuart.
I disagree. I think that's bad theology, to place God's love in opposition to his justice. In the words of George MacDonald, God's justice is perfectly merciful and his mercy is perfectly just.
It is interesting to observe how strongly the god concept is so difficult for people to relinquish. The emotional connection that people develop with the god concept is something that they become reliant on for meaning and purpose. They sense they would be lost if they gave it up completely. Yet, there are so many examples of people who have given up their god concept and flourish afterward. One would think that should help them find the courage.
Quite insightful and you sound like you're speaking from experience. thanks so much for watching and taking the time to comment.
@@davidmosesperez I was 11 and attending Bible camp when I came to the conclusion that Christianity did not make sense. I had spent that summer pondering and asking questions. It really is not that difficult to see through the irrationality of it all. I had not yet been indoctrinated to the degree that I was already emotionally dependent on Christian mythology, which allowed me to use my nascent critical reasoning skills to question the core beliefs/doctrines.
@semidemiurge well... I certainly make no attempt to deny your experience - how insulting to you if I even tried. I went on much of the same experience and have come to a different conclusion about theism. I am certainly NO American evangelical, but I am a theist and my lens of has been a more progressive christian spirituality that I look thru. you sound well informed, intelligent, and quite self-aware. you have my full respect. you do you, fully.
@@davidmosesperez Yes, that's more or less how I look at it too. Though I grew up in a church that never was staunchly Evangelical, it's hard to avoid Evangelicalism's influence in our culture altogether.
Thanks for another great conversation!
I would love as a first step, to see the Bible arranged in the order in which the books were written, to change the overview, and give a clearer context. And to have history and culture and purpose explained at the beginning of each book. To me it would go a long way towards increasing understanding.
What did we lose by fixing the text of Scriptures? Scripture was an evolving tradition for hundreds of years, and then it got fixed. What if Scripture returned to being a process rather than a fixed thing, reflecting new experiences of the faith community - like physics' new cosmology, the Holocaust, evolution, democratic and egalitarian movements?
Yo do that you have to admit there is no god and the bible is just the thoughts of the people and we already have laws to express the thoughts of the people
@@truthgiver8286the jews do it and they’re not atheists.
Thank you for your clear thoughts about the bible and the love of God.
I think deconstruction is just a term made up for getting rid of things you don't like in the bible, especially if it says something against things you are actually doing. It's also a way to say everyone (LGBTQ, etc) is ok, and now you can be looked at as 'good' to many people and avoid persecution. But Jesus said if you truly believe in Him, you will be persecuted. I knew of a pastor going down the deconstruction road who wound up questioning the very resurrection of Jesus, without which there is no gospel.
thanks for the comment Keith and I fully respect your thoughts. however, for myself, I have come to a different conclusion and find your thoughts a bit simplistic and apart from reality, history, and the general christian experience. I take the Bible so seriously because it's such a miraculous book, that there is no way I can take it literally. it is took wonderful and too inspired to be pinned down with such constraints. thanks for writing.
Watching the documentary about Moses, i saw you explain the burning bush according to one Jewish opinion. As an Orthodox Christian, we see the burning bush as the womb of the Theotokos who was, by God's protection able to conceive God in the flesh without hurt.
@Garyp.9073 - For you to say , " The Bible is not written for unbelievers" brings up the dilemma as to how is an unbeliever ever to change without Scripture. (Rom 10:17) If you feel that the Bible is inspired by God then you must accept this undeniable truth written in Rom 15:4.
People come to God because God draws them without a Bible.
The Bible only points to the true logos. Jesus
Holy spirit draws, teaches, and comforts.
China, Muslim countries, etc.
People converted to the faith before the New Testament was written. People across the globe have converted without literacy and access to the Bible for centuries, right on through to today.
@@jarrettperdue3328
Agree
It is not necessary as long as you admit they are fairy stories but is necessary as long as you insist it's the truth. We had a bunch of literal stories that one by one have been changed to metaphorical as science proved them impossible and oh yes the ones that are left are still literal ho ho ho.
If everything you see, experience, and know can be put into question then the guardrail can only be logic.
So you need to drop the bible and start at zero.
What is god? Mental construct? Does he exist or not - can we ever know it? Can almighty even be used when almighty is no definition at all? Is there only one etc. Basic is logic that is the only constant thing.
This sounded like a chat between two atheists desperately trying to convince themselves that they are theists.
@downenout8705 - actually, I don't see it that way. it's two people who embrace both kataphatic theology and apophatic theology when it comes to Christian spirituality. That the understanding of God comes thru our construct of words and thoughts... and God is also so immense, that is, our understanding has limits and God is beyond any words or understanding of God. It leaves room for both, thus we are BOTH theists. thanks for the comment and for weighing in.
@@davidmosesperez It's tongue in cheek, however I see no good reason why the supposed creator of everything isn't apparently capable of communicating with perfect precision and perfect clarity.
Theology is the death of every believe. Thats very clear after this discussion😅😂
Supernaturalism was always a childish approach to the Bible. The Bible itself does not need magic or the supernatural, and merely assumes a natural God who controls nature through natural law. Only our common human ignorance leads us to demand the supernatural -- like an isolated jungle tribesman who sees a smartphone for the first time. A smartphone is only magical to the ignorant. Arthur C. Clarke's Third Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Yes, God is Love. But, He is also Justice (unless you think He has no problem with eg murder, abortion, stealing, adultery etc). He is Eternal. Therefore both His Love and His Wrath are eternal. ONLY an Eternal Holy Person could pay the eternal price incurred by human wrongdoing (sin) before an Eternal Holy God. JESUS DID THAT…FOR US. All we need do is turn away from our sins (a personal choice) then engage with a gradually transformative life-work (fully enabled by God’s Grace) and BELIEVE THE GOOD NEWS. The Cross is not complicated. Nor is The Gospel…unless men make it so. These men are honest, well intentioned, intelligent and eloquent. They are also EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. Flee from their errors…hold fast to childlike Faith in Jesus Christ, The Son of God, The Second Person of The Holy Trinity, Who died on the Cross for our sins and Who rose from death in Glorious Resurrection. SALVATION IS FOUND IN HIM ALONE.
thanks for your comment Stuart and both Pete and I are very familiar with your biblicistic viewpoint - we were both in it for years. however, I've reached a point where I don't see it that way any more. and really, you give us too much power and influence -- we are hardly dangerous. if you actually knew me, had a conversation with me, you would see that is not so. thanks for taking the time to write and share your thoughts.
@@davidmosesperez I understand your position David, and I appreciate your honesty. I know you mean well. Obviously neither you (nor Pete) are a personally dangerous individual (on the contrary, you both seem very pleasant!). What I’m actually referring to is the very real DANGER your ideas pose. Our Salvation is found in Christ’s Self-Sacrificial Atonement…that alone…and your drift towards what sounds like some vague form of Unitarian Universalism (or at least a departure from a clear confession of Christ’s Divinity and His Saving Work upon Calvary) is a perilous endeavour that may adversely affect many.
@@stuartallen8684 - well, if your evangelical theology is working for you - to make you a person that is more loving, more compassionate, and creates a wonderful connection with you and God - by all means stay with it and spread it. however, for many, evangelical fundamental biblicistic theology is not working any more, and they have found a different connection to Christ and the Bible than the relatively newer faith you speak of. all my best to you and keep watching.
@@davidmosesperez Dear David…actually I’m Catholic (ex-Evangelical…didn’t even become a Christian until I was 49!)…so, mine is ancient belief. Now, I’m neither scholar nor theologian. But it seems to me that Christus Victor, Satisfaction, Moral Exemplar and Penal Substitution theories of Atonement aren’t contradictory at all…they’re complimentary. I’m Catholic because I believe in the True Presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament (proven by numerous Eucharistic Miracles around the world…you only need Google that for evidence, we even know Jesus blood group now!) And also I’m Catholic because I believe that if Jesus is my Brother, and His Father is my Father, then His Mother must be my Mother too…hence I love the Blessed Virgin Mary and venerate (not worship) Her in Her God-Given Glory. It’s a Family thing! If you’re searching for new and fresh understanding PLEASE, I BEG YOU, read ‘True Life in God’ (Vassula Ryden)…you will find it there, both ancient and new, traditional yet fresh. It’s a private revelation given by God (our God is not silent) to a locutionist named Vassula Ryden, an Orthodox lady. 1 John 4:1-2 tells us that where Christ is confessed ‘come in the flesh’ there the Spirit of God speaks…and He is confessed ‘come in the flesh’ in that revelation (in a locution printed on page one of the large single volume edition…where Jesus is speaking, Sept 27 1986) so we can be 100% sure the revelation is genuine and of God. It is a Love Letter David…an open, unveiled outpouring of great beauty. It also expresses concerns for the church. Personally, I believe it is the small scroll in Rev 10, or a reflection of it. Sweet to the taste because it is God’s Word, bitter to the stomach because it’s not what Evangelicals would necessarily want to hear. God’s Love is truly made manifest in that revelation (you should see how Jesus speaks about His Mom! His Words reveal His Heart…and it’s Sublime!) That Heart is ours David…gifted to us in sheer Grace. I understand that you have questions (we all do)…but PLEASE, I BEG YOU, at least read ‘True Life in God’ to see if there are answers there for you. Vassula writes what she hears God (all Three Holy Persons) speak, her hand guided slowly and carefully by her Holy Guardian Angel (yes, they’re real too). Many have panicked because of that (the handwriting) suspecting the trickery of the foe. Some have even spoken unwisely as a result. But we need have no fear. 1 John 4:1-2 is clear, we have been given that infallible litmus test of truth…and Our Lord Jesus Christ made a point of saying ‘I lived on earth among you, in flesh’ very early in this revelation (Sept 27 1986) so as to confirm it’s authenticity and put to rest any fears of enemy trickery. David, please, please, at least read it. Yours in Christ, Stuart.
I disagree. I think that's bad theology, to place God's love in opposition to his justice. In the words of George MacDonald, God's justice is perfectly merciful and his mercy is perfectly just.
Are these guys Atheists?
The Bible is not written to unbelievers.
Agreed but reading with an open mind has certainly made many an atheist.