Another book down, another fun review from you. Agreed with all your points overall (Nynaeve and Perrin especially), and I was almost surprised at how much I've enjoyed this book vs what I was expecting. Still dreading Crossroads Of Twilight, so here's hoping I get through it okay when I get to it in a few months.
I think the love square thing stems from Robert Jordan's personal fantasy of having his own harem of 3 women and it consisting of a blonde a brunette and a red head. At least thats something I remember reading a long time ago from a Jordan interview hahah
On the Mat and Tylin issue, I think there are a couple things going on. 1. Stockholm as you mentioned is part of it. 2. Unreliable narrator is almost certainly part of it as well. Remember when Luca is flirting incessantly with Nyneave and she doesn't understand why he won't stop? I think RJ was going for something similar here. It hasn't aged well and I agree that it comes across as 'I love my rapist' which I 'love' so much :P Enjoy the series, Alex
This book is totally different on reread. The first time I read it, after waiting a while to get it, I was SO frustrated with all the POV chapters for characters from books 2 & 3. I couldn't remember who any of them were. And the plot threads involving Perrin and Matt really go no where. Elayne's and Rand's are the only stories that actually progress at all, though Matt did get the big reveal of his future wife at the end. Anyway, on reread, I have a lot better grasp of everything going on, and so all the filler between the big events of - 1. Rand getting bonded to his 3 wives. 2. The cleansing of saidin. 3. Matt meets his future wife. - all the pages inbetween that means a lot more to me than it did the first time around, when I just wanted to slog through it. Rand's three wives was one of the plot threads that I cared about the most during the first reading. Since Rand was prophecied to die in the Final Battle, I thought of it as a temporary, why not, kind of thing. A key was that his wives were my 3 favorite female characters in the story, so I was glad to have them together. Upon reread, I am agreeing more with you that I see his relationship with Min as the one true relationship in this entire series. She is now easily my favorite female character. I haven't succumbed to the hate for Elayne. I give her a lot of slack because she was born to be Queen. Most the women in this series act like queens, but she actually IS one. Big difference. More understandable that she would expect people to obey her and that she has to act like she knows what she is doing at all times. I do find her behavior in this book fairly insufferable except for her brief sojourn with Rand. It is when she is with Rand or when she is in crisis that she is the most likeable, and I give her credit for that. Matt could have left Tylin. He wasn't being forced to be there. Her behavior towards him is enraging, but no different than what is suggested happens in Far Madding. It seems like Jordan presents the readers with these wildly misandrist cultures, but it doesn't really bother anyone unless it directly affects a character they like. In Ebou Darr, wives carry knives not only for duels but also so they can cut their husbands if they displease them. We are all fine with that until we see a woman actually use one of those knives for what they are meant for. I don't think it is Stockholm syndrome at all. I think Matt is a product of his society the same as Rand lets women beat him even though he is the most powerful person in the world. Great interplay between Lan and Rand in this book. The scene when all three meet up again in Nynaeve and Lan's chambers is great. Nynaeve, for me insufferable through most the series, is becoming a more likeable character because women more powerful than her are being introduced. She isn't able to just bully everyone anymore. The best moment in the whole book for me was immediately before Rand attempted the cleanse. Min stands up in her stirrups and kisses Rand on the eyes. Through the bond he feels her complete faith, trust and confidence in him, so much so that it amazes him. A rare moment of actual love in this series. Great moment.
Great review as always! You would expect Crossroads of Twilight to be really exciting after the ending in Winter's Heart, but that is not how Jordan rolls 😂 I hate CoT. It is even worse than Path of Daggsrs imo. However, book 11-14 are so good so keep reading! You will also really see the impact of the cleansing of the taint in those books!
Yes! I hated that stuff with Mat, she raped him and no one takes this seriously. The girls even laugh at him ugh hate it. And I agree about Min. She’s the best in the relationship. I can’t stand Elaine Love this series though, and the ending of this book through was great!!
This book was really where I started to love Nynaeve, I think there are really 2 moments that made Nynaeve really start to jump up my favorite character list. The first is breaking her block, the second is when she abandoned Elayne and the wondergirls, and joined up with Rand. I LOVE Nynaeve's relationship with Rand, and I think when those 2 are in the same conversation, both of them shine brighter.
The problem with the 'slog' is for first time readers (i was one many years ago) is you are mainly following the main plot and every time it makes a tangent you are screaming at the booksaying but I wanna know more about Rand!!! This changes completely on a reread (even on a reread on an unfiniahed series) where you start to pick apart the side characters and plots you almost certainly skimmed initially. Perhaps more importantly you will notice the foreshadowing and themes much more now you can 'relax' and don't have to 'race' to the main plot. I hated PoD initially, it advanced nothing and felt like a step backwards. WH annoyed me with needless chatting for most of the book on subsequent reads you notice all the 'slow' parts are full of character development, world building and foreshadowing hints which is why PoD is actually one of my favourite books of the series in the end. I will not say too much without spoilers of future books, but there is a *lot* of subtle shifts which happen in the book you can point to it as the 'pivot point' for all the later books (which exclusing CoT) are awesome :D Anyways great review, subscribed to see more :)
Yeah I can definitely see how on rereads some of these books would get a lot better. Since there's so much going on in these books and so many characters, you can probably pay attention to different things every time.
I think the love square thing is intended to make us uncomfortable, like there's nothing wrong with consenting adults having a relationship like this, except it feels kind of wrong. I think he is just saying people live different ways from one another and that's fine if that's how they want to live. Everyone gets a book off, there is lots of Perrin coming. The books from the slog are much better on reread, there is alot of subtle things going on, that I atleast missed my first read. Most people say crossroads is the low point for the series but its still a good read imo.
I have less issues with the fact of them CHOOSING to be in this kind of relationship and more of a problem with it being put on them through prophecy or destiny. Like they have to do it.
@@alexnieves But in a lot of ways, this is what the book is about: the wheel weaving us all into a pattern and time repeating itself through cycles (ages). There is a conflict between destiny and freewill.
Nynaeve best female? Nah, this may be the book were she begins to be sufferable but only in the last 2 or 3 books were there moments that I liked but her personally I don't like tho I admit at the end I dislike her only a little
I honestly can't understand how many people think this series is such a good one and put it on a high pedestal, when clearly IT IS AVERAGE with 80% of what was written was completely useless And the characters are not even that good😂😂
I wouldn't agree that 80% of it is useless, I definitely enjoy it more than I dislike it. I've said it before but I think it has some of the highest highs in fantasy but also some of the lowest lows. Robert Jordan I think just needed to trim some of the fat from the series and cut down on the sheer amount of characters and side plots that he goes down but the overarching story and main cast are great overall.
I mean it has a lot going for 14 books. Each character that are heavily focused have arcs that are extremely well executed as well as a world that's diverse and doesn't fall in the stereotypes of "this person is from this place due to skin tone or clothing." Like you won't find a fantasy series where Tinkers (aka Romani people/Irish Travellers) are depicted positively as much as in WoT because Romani people are usually depicted as thieves and evil people that put a curse on others. Also WoT is one of the few epic fantasy series where the ending is very much deserved and satisfying whereas others try and fail to land like Dark Towers. WoT isn't perfect (pacing, some gender essentialism, repetitious phrases), but the fact Jordan did all this while he wrote this series in a short year before his untimely passing, it's pretty much an accomplishment. I don't think you'll find an epic fantasy series that has a conclusive ending as much WoT. Malazan is pretty damn close and hopefully Sanderson sticks the landing for his Stormlight Archive series, but given how mixed book 4 is, idk. Also calling a series that's not good as it is a fact is very disrespectful for people that have felt connected and attached to the work that the author puts in. I usually would call a series garbage if the author doesn't listen to fans feedback and call other readers as not good for their work to understand (Terry Goodkind) or the overall way it has gone in a different direction that what it originally set itself up by its premise in the early books (Anita Blake).
@@timidalchemist8475 if that's how you feel about it: good for you But for me it was not, and about thar ending😂😂😂: you simply don't end a 10+book story like that. Trash... 🤷♀️
Another book down, another fun review from you. Agreed with all your points overall (Nynaeve and Perrin especially), and I was almost surprised at how much I've enjoyed this book vs what I was expecting. Still dreading Crossroads Of Twilight, so here's hoping I get through it okay when I get to it in a few months.
Honestly if you enjoyed Winters Heart you'll probably like Crossroads of Twilight. You're almost to all the really awesome books!
Really enjoying these wot reviews. Keep up the good work. You're so close to the end of the slog!
So close I can taste it! Thanks for watching.
Just an FYI . . . . removing the taint prevents it from driving male channelers any *more* crazy. It doesn't remove what damage was already done.
Good point
I think the love square thing stems from Robert Jordan's personal fantasy of having his own harem of 3 women and it consisting of a blonde a brunette and a red head. At least thats something I remember reading a long time ago from a Jordan interview hahah
They would make sense, lol
He did have a relationship of polyamorous as a teenager. He never took control over it and just had the girls take the wheel.
@@timidalchemist8475 Haha yeah thats how it goes if they are friends. Thats why its better when they dont know each other lol
On the Mat and Tylin issue, I think there are a couple things going on.
1. Stockholm as you mentioned is part of it.
2. Unreliable narrator is almost certainly part of it as well. Remember when Luca is flirting incessantly with Nyneave and she doesn't understand why he won't stop? I think RJ was going for something similar here.
It hasn't aged well and I agree that it comes across as 'I love my rapist' which I 'love' so much :P
Enjoy the series, Alex
I always appreciate you for the insight and context my friend. I definitely feel some slog but I'm looking forward to the final books.
This book is totally different on reread. The first time I read it, after waiting a while to get it, I was SO frustrated with all the POV chapters for characters from books 2 & 3. I couldn't remember who any of them were. And the plot threads involving Perrin and Matt really go no where. Elayne's and Rand's are the only stories that actually progress at all, though Matt did get the big reveal of his future wife at the end.
Anyway, on reread, I have a lot better grasp of everything going on, and so all the filler between the big events of - 1. Rand getting bonded to his 3 wives. 2. The cleansing of saidin. 3. Matt meets his future wife. - all the pages inbetween that means a lot more to me than it did the first time around, when I just wanted to slog through it.
Rand's three wives was one of the plot threads that I cared about the most during the first reading. Since Rand was prophecied to die in the Final Battle, I thought of it as a temporary, why not, kind of thing. A key was that his wives were my 3 favorite female characters in the story, so I was glad to have them together. Upon reread, I am agreeing more with you that I see his relationship with Min as the one true relationship in this entire series. She is now easily my favorite female character. I haven't succumbed to the hate for Elayne. I give her a lot of slack because she was born to be Queen. Most the women in this series act like queens, but she actually IS one. Big difference. More understandable that she would expect people to obey her and that she has to act like she knows what she is doing at all times. I do find her behavior in this book fairly insufferable except for her brief sojourn with Rand. It is when she is with Rand or when she is in crisis that she is the most likeable, and I give her credit for that.
Matt could have left Tylin. He wasn't being forced to be there. Her behavior towards him is enraging, but no different than what is suggested happens in Far Madding. It seems like Jordan presents the readers with these wildly misandrist cultures, but it doesn't really bother anyone unless it directly affects a character they like. In Ebou Darr, wives carry knives not only for duels but also so they can cut their husbands if they displease them. We are all fine with that until we see a woman actually use one of those knives for what they are meant for. I don't think it is Stockholm syndrome at all. I think Matt is a product of his society the same as Rand lets women beat him even though he is the most powerful person in the world.
Great interplay between Lan and Rand in this book. The scene when all three meet up again in Nynaeve and Lan's chambers is great. Nynaeve, for me insufferable through most the series, is becoming a more likeable character because women more powerful than her are being introduced. She isn't able to just bully everyone anymore.
The best moment in the whole book for me was immediately before Rand attempted the cleanse. Min stands up in her stirrups and kisses Rand on the eyes. Through the bond he feels her complete faith, trust and confidence in him, so much so that it amazes him. A rare moment of actual love in this series. Great moment.
I was surprised that this book to me didn't feel like a slog read will continue with the series I hope the next book won't be bad read
I'm glad you enjoyed it! I think you'll be fine with the slog then if this didn't feel like a slog to you 😁
Your show is always great.
Thanks!
WoT!!!!! Winters heart has a fantastic ending.
Brilliant ending.
Great review as always! You would expect Crossroads of Twilight to be really exciting after the ending in Winter's Heart, but that is not how Jordan rolls 😂 I hate CoT. It is even worse than Path of Daggsrs imo. However, book 11-14 are so good so keep reading! You will also really see the impact of the cleansing of the taint in those books!
I'm definitely excited for the final books but I'm already 100 pages into Crossroads of Twilight and it is certainly... a book.
@@alexnieves Yes, that is the right word. It is a book😂
They could definitely use some editing.
I liked Perrin for the first 5 books but even later books in the series didn't redeem Perrin for me
That makes me sad
@@alexnieves I've heard other people's opinions differ from mine and they like Perrin in later books so you might like him again
Hopefully I do!
Yes! I hated that stuff with Mat, she raped him and no one takes this seriously. The girls even laugh at him ugh hate it.
And I agree about Min. She’s the best in the relationship. I can’t stand Elaine
Love this series though, and the ending of this book through was great!!
The ending is almost always good in a Wheel of Time book!
This book was really where I started to love Nynaeve, I think there are really 2 moments that made Nynaeve really start to jump up my favorite character list.
The first is breaking her block, the second is when she abandoned Elayne and the wondergirls, and joined up with Rand. I LOVE Nynaeve's relationship with Rand, and I think when those 2 are in the same conversation, both of them shine brighter.
Nynaeve is a great character, I'm glad you agree.
The problem with the 'slog' is for first time readers (i was one many years ago) is you are mainly following the main plot and every time it makes a tangent you are screaming at the booksaying but I wanna know more about Rand!!!
This changes completely on a reread (even on a reread on an unfiniahed series) where you start to pick apart the side characters and plots you almost certainly skimmed initially.
Perhaps more importantly you will notice the foreshadowing and themes much more now you can 'relax' and don't have to 'race' to the main plot.
I hated PoD initially, it advanced nothing and felt like a step backwards. WH annoyed me with needless chatting for most of the book on subsequent reads you notice all the 'slow' parts are full of character development, world building and foreshadowing hints which is why PoD is actually one of my favourite books of the series in the end. I will not say too much without spoilers of future books, but there is a *lot* of subtle shifts which happen in the book you can point to it as the 'pivot point' for all the later books (which exclusing CoT) are awesome :D
Anyways great review, subscribed to see more :)
Yeah I can definitely see how on rereads some of these books would get a lot better. Since there's so much going on in these books and so many characters, you can probably pay attention to different things every time.
I think the love square thing is intended to make us uncomfortable, like there's nothing wrong with consenting adults having a relationship like this, except it feels kind of wrong. I think he is just saying people live different ways from one another and that's fine if that's how they want to live. Everyone gets a book off, there is lots of Perrin coming. The books from the slog are much better on reread, there is alot of subtle things going on, that I atleast missed my first read. Most people say crossroads is the low point for the series but its still a good read imo.
I have less issues with the fact of them CHOOSING to be in this kind of relationship and more of a problem with it being put on them through prophecy or destiny. Like they have to do it.
@@alexnieves But in a lot of ways, this is what the book is about: the wheel weaving us all into a pattern and time repeating itself through cycles (ages). There is a conflict between destiny and freewill.
Fair point
Nynaeve best female? Nah, this may be the book were she begins to be sufferable but only in the last 2 or 3 books were there moments that I liked but her personally I don't like tho I admit at the end I dislike her only a little
I just love her impact to the overall story. Her accomplishments cannot be ignored but I understand why people dislike her personality.
I honestly can't understand how many people think this series is such a good one and put it on a high pedestal, when clearly IT IS AVERAGE with 80% of what was written was completely useless
And the characters are not even that good😂😂
I wouldn't agree that 80% of it is useless, I definitely enjoy it more than I dislike it. I've said it before but I think it has some of the highest highs in fantasy but also some of the lowest lows. Robert Jordan I think just needed to trim some of the fat from the series and cut down on the sheer amount of characters and side plots that he goes down but the overarching story and main cast are great overall.
I mean it has a lot going for 14 books. Each character that are heavily focused have arcs that are extremely well executed as well as a world that's diverse and doesn't fall in the stereotypes of "this person is from this place due to skin tone or clothing." Like you won't find a fantasy series where Tinkers (aka Romani people/Irish Travellers) are depicted positively as much as in WoT because Romani people are usually depicted as thieves and evil people that put a curse on others. Also WoT is one of the few epic fantasy series where the ending is very much deserved and satisfying whereas others try and fail to land like Dark Towers. WoT isn't perfect (pacing, some gender essentialism, repetitious phrases), but the fact Jordan did all this while he wrote this series in a short year before his untimely passing, it's pretty much an accomplishment. I don't think you'll find an epic fantasy series that has a conclusive ending as much WoT. Malazan is pretty damn close and hopefully Sanderson sticks the landing for his Stormlight Archive series, but given how mixed book 4 is, idk.
Also calling a series that's not good as it is a fact is very disrespectful for people that have felt connected and attached to the work that the author puts in. I usually would call a series garbage if the author doesn't listen to fans feedback and call other readers as not good for their work to understand (Terry Goodkind) or the overall way it has gone in a different direction that what it originally set itself up by its premise in the early books (Anita Blake).
@@timidalchemist8475 if that's how you feel about it: good for you
But for me it was not, and about thar ending😂😂😂: you simply don't end a 10+book story like that. Trash... 🤷♀️