Awesome summary. I am in the middle of a research for a video about this particular incident and wanted to hear the opinion of someone who flies the ATR. Well done!
@@FlywithMagnar I will! One question, I was struggling to find any reference to the flap retraction by the captain during the go-around in my version of the final report. My French is a bit raspy though 😂
I rely on Google Translate, and it translates the French word for flaps (des volets) to "shutter". The flaps was selected up at time 19:03:59. It's on page 11 in the report. I'm looking forward to se your video!
@@FlywithMagnar Hi! My video on this accident is now live. Given the excellent amount of extra info you have provided, I have referenced and linked to your video in mine. Have a great day and continue your fine work. //Petter
I came here after watching Mentour Pilot's video. Thank you for the detailed explanation of this incident (almost accident!). I initially thought that this happened a long long time ago, not 2018! It boggles my mind that this happened so recently in this era of flight data monitoring. I just hope after this the safety dept at RAM was overhauled. Looking at how comfortable the Captain was breaking MDA repeatedly, it was definitely not his first time doing it and may have actually been a habit during such wx conditions. This should have been caught out much earlier.
I was a design engineer for equipment used in Process Control of High Criticality processes for 47 years. The firm had one major rule, 'Almost all sins can be forgiven, but lying will never be forgiven'. I've seen more engineers fired over the years about lying, some for the most insignificant things, then I can count. This story is unbelievable and reminds me more of Barn the Storm days of flying I've read about.
Lesson learned: "Don't let anybody kill you". That is what my former captain said. Regardless whether you are Capt or FO if you see something wrong say it and take action if necessary. Remember one of the ATR SOP Golden Rule: When things don't go as expected: Take over.
I watched this video and i have to say that i have been a training captain for many years and this is by far one of the best videos i have ever seen! I am really grateful you shared it and i firmly believe it should be shown to every pilot in general and to anyone involved in aviation as it deals with many issues spanning from CRM to compliance to SOP’s, authority in the cockpit to complacency! One aspect that i would like to add to this discussion is that in my opinion the captain involved in the accident was somehow affected by the blaming culture that based on my work experience in the middle east is still very present and that must be eradicated to make serious improvements to safety, even though i am not familiar with RAM express. Once again thanks for sharing! This is a copy and paste of the comment i left on a post of your video on fb. Thanks for sharing and it would be a pleasure and honor to share the cockpit with you!!
Dear Captain Thank you so much for such good analysis & questioning about this major incident. I did really get a stomachache listening to you. As retiree former captain B737/767/767/777 (TRI/TRE) i did fly with the Royal Air Maroc for more than 37 years before leaving & flying for other compagnies. During my whole career i did never expect reading about such incredibly dangerous situation happening in RAM. However, this demonstrate us, that as human being we can expect anything we can't even imagine before, when we loose our references and get completely disoriented and, Further more, when our fear lead us to an unacceptable way of lying !! Knowing exactly what the RAM sop's are, this major incident must lead the management to reconsider the whole human factor, safety and risk management system! Thank you so much once again and hope that these kind of incident could help better understanding of the human factor, teamwork, CRM & other subjects related to human being performances.
@@FlywithMagnar This happened because the company encouraged pilots to not follow procedure. This time he got caught out. If he hadn't been caught he and his fellow RAM Captains would be still be breaking procedures. They probably still are. the First Officer didn't demand the Captain to stick to procedures because the other Captains Fly the same way. Its normal and acceptable procedure to not follow procedures. I would take any comment from RAM flight crews to be taken with a pinch of salt about being shocked that this happened. I am disappointed you didn't make that clear either. Why do you think the investigation didn't even bother to ask the Captain why he broke every procedure and why the First Officer didn't challenge him? This idea that it is a culture that prevents this is crap. That is just a smokescreen to hide the incompetence and negligence of the staff. You know that as well as you know what the procedures are. So why tell only one half of the story? A lot of people nearly got killed. Actually I understand why you didn't pursue this and its not a problem. This was an excellent video and after watching some of your other vids I have got used to your laid back detailed style. I like it very much.
When I started flying at the end of the 90's i remember i would look at Captain's like they were God's and even seeing them do something wrong i would not speak up because in my head I thought that the captain knows what he is doing so even when we went below MDA i kept my mouth shut because I was scared that the Captain might not like that and might get me fired. One day i finally decided to tell the chief pilot that the captain kept going way below MDA and guess who lost their job?. If you guessed me that's correct I got fired for speaking up, but the reason for being fired was that i was spreading rumors about senior Captain's. I almost quit flying completely but after couple weeks i decided to contact the FAA and FAA actually started investigating them and they found that the two Captain's i was talking about had violated the MDA many times, one Captain violated the MDA nine times in one month. The two Captain's got fired and i got an offer to get my job back but i decided not to go back to that airline where i would be considered a rat. Now i am a Captain and the first thing I tell the first officer i fly with is, if they see me doing anything wrong to tell me or tell me they are taking over control. I actually like to test first officers sometimes by doing something wrong to see if they will speak up and i realized even now first officers will almost never speak up. I would say out of 10 first officers i put through the test only 4 spoke up the others remained quiet.
You did the right thing when you spoke up, and I'm glad that the FAA acted as they did. Some companies have a very good safety culture, where the pilots are encouraged to report incidents. However, there are still companies where the first officers don't dare to report captains who follow their own procedures. This is a serious safety issue.
@@randymartin9876thank you!! I found this post unbearable to read, although I was filled with massive admiration for the guy, who may have saved hundreds of lives by speaking up. I’m so glad you were taken seriously by the FAA and your actions vindicated. It was the chief pilot, as well as the two captains (note, no apostrophe) who should have been fired - he was totally unfit for the job. This could be Boeing several years down the line 😮. If one of the pilots calls for a go around, it should immediately be instigated. At worst, some missed approach practice. At best, a fatal accident avoided.
As a ATR76 TRE with 25yrs on ATRs, l thought I had heard everything. This takes the cake. Can I show your video an upcoming ATR Pilot refresher course?
I dont have the authority to grant you the permission as i am not the author of this video, but as a training captain myself although on different airplane - 737ng and CL604/605 - i am encouraging to do so cos it speaks volumes about many issues and i am positive it could and will result in saving lives making more conscious and safe pilots!
The "water monitoring" comment makes me think that this might not have been the first time the captain did this. Perhaps the previous time(s) the visibility was not quite as bad and they had visual reference to the water before hitting it... I am still curious what altitude the pilots thought they were at when the GPWS rang out the first time. Did they think they were still above the cloud ceiling of 600 ft despite altimeter readings, etc due to the whiteout conditions?
Excellent explanation! To me, this shows two things. 1. The ATR is a really well-built plane, coming out of this with only relatively minor damage and no harm to the people on board, despite the captain's effort to f*ck things up. 2. Some people, despite likely meeting formal requirements, just shouldn't be sitting in the front left corner of the aircraft. Seriously, a person who shows no respect whatsoever to the rules and puts the life of people at risk like this has no business flying in my opinion. I have mentioned it in other videos - I am just an aviation enthusiast who has never controlled a plane in the real world. But as a passenger, I expect the flight crew to pull up when EGPWS tells them to. Yes, it may be a false alarm, systems can malfunction, but usually there is way more space above the plane than below during the approach, so pulling up is the safe option. I rather have them go around, check what's going on, and possibly divert than to just ignore such an important warning or even turn the system off because they are annoyed by it telling them that they are doing something wrong.
I want to thank you by this video due to its huge quality. The analysis was excellent in addition to the great explanations and their conclusions are the best that I've seen. I'm going to follow your channel from now on. Greetings
For what reason was Captain Caliphate downgraded from B-737 to an ATR? That’s not a step up! I am very curious what he did to “earn” that substantial demotion.
There’s quite a well documented instance of a land plane surviving heavy impact with water and continuing to fly afterwards, with the proviso here that a) it was a military aircraft, and b) it was on a war operation. On the night of 16th May 1943, Lancaster ED936 flown by Pilot Officer Rice was on it’s way to bomb the Sorpe dam in Germany when it came in contact with the sea (it was at night and they were deliberately flying at an altitude of 30 feet). The impact ripped off the Upkeep mine, buckling the roof of the bomb bay and sending sea water shooting down the rear fuselage. There was a second impact on the tail wheel by either the sea again or the bomb travelling past. This caused the tailwheel to be forced up into the fuselage demolishing the Elsan chemical toilet. The tail gunner was a bit peeved at this point because he was now dripping wet and covered in the contents of the toilet... The aircrew flew back to Scampton, from where they’d taken off and landed with no injuries to the crew.
Thank You for the excellent video and very careful explanations Magnar! I am also very glad that Mentour Pilot has pointed us in your direction. You seem to be a VERY calm person. When you lowered your eyebrow twice as you did I had to laugh out loud about just how deadly serious you were being, while expressing things in such calm terms. You must have seen some very interesting things in your lifetime, to be so calm while explaining such a serous near disaster. Thank you for your contribution to flight safety. I will be watching more of your videos.
hi Magnar, I've already flown on that plane, when I heard what happened I just said pax and crew were miraculous, it's just a crime what that captain did, unbelievable it's a good thing this plane's engines are up and not under the wings, otherwise it would have been a catastrophe, the design of this plane could have avoided the worst, when I read the investigation report I said again and again it's a divine miracle.😐
Fantastic, plenty to pick out here. Unfortunately we are seeing more and more of these sorts of incidents and accidents. Noncompliance to SOPs is a recipe for disaster.
Absolutely horrific! There was a jump seated cadet pilot learning all those bad tricks from his more experienced colleagues. Shouldn't the Corporate safety culture be examined too? This senior Line training Captain, why was he demoted to ATR and not promoted to a larger aeroplane in the RAM fleet since he was a LTC on B737?
hi Magnar ! i am from Morocco ! and i remember this accident very well , thanks for talking about it , your way to expain is amazing !! keep up ! and , subscribed !
If you are from Morocco you must understand the Feudalistic Bombastic mentality, the old Captain had to show off, and the young guy wanted to impress him, who cares about the passengers, even I had forgotten about it.
As an aviation enthusiast from Peter's video and your video I don't find any fault with the first officer even though he didn't have much experience he showed his attitude to avoid an accident but he was to obey the captain and that's what has happened and one on the jump seat he was a new guy. And you said one should stand up and say..see if the first officer would stand up and say something then as a new guy the captain will accuse him for disobeying him.Since the captain is lieing the one who made him training captain should be caught and questioned for not testing his attitude in captaincy and instruction.
The shit hit the fan and got thrown in all directions! It was only a matter of sheer luck that no loss of lives occurred! Now i am wondering if that captain was put under training or if he was discharger cos, even though i am firmly against any blaming culture, i find it very hard that an attitude like that - consciously deciding to neglect the SOP’s raising yourself above the rules that have been put in place for our safety - can be fixed! i also feel sorry for the f/o who in my opinion if he/she can recover from the experience he/she can learn a great deal from it, that speaking up is not only an abstract concept that you read in a book but it is something that is an essential component of a team work, no matter how steep the authority gradient is! One last thing: i find it hard to believe that that was the first time that that captain shower that attitude and he should have been stopped a long time before. Please share your opinion on this matter. Thanks
Hi All it is about the safety culture of the company combine with the country culture. The company culture it is unknown for me, I do not know any one there nor worked there neither. The country I am familiar with it since I have flown many times there, I could see that they follow what the manager says mainly, I guess there is excemptions. This kind of environment can make the FO to w react like that. About the captain performance, he did it the on the previous flight so I guess it was normal ops for him to bust the MDA, at least at this airport, I do not know in other airports, I base my opinion on the facts we have now. I flown ATR before and I remember in one of the airlines I flown, there was a case of a Cpt doing a circling and he ended up too high on final, he tried to save the app but the FO call for go around as per SOP, he kept trying, FO call again go around not finding response so the FO took over the controls and execueted the missed approach. Final result they filled up an ASR and the Cpt had some tea and biscuits some sim training problem solve. The application of the just culture and the SOPs in a safety oriented environment help a lot the crew.
Manuel J. Paz G. Well the examiner who passed him over a cup of tea and biscuits is just as “guilty” as the captain if not more, as he disregarded his responsibility to weed out the pilots who show such a dangerous attitude and if someday anything happens to that captain, the examiner as far as i am concerned should be the one to be blamed and held responsible
@@diegobeatrice5257I do not think he got passed only with tea and biscuits. Tea and biscuits was in the office, after that he went throught training and checking, the pass was not for free. Everybody can make mistakes and if properly retrain I think should not be a problem. The sim in that company were at high standard, they did not give anything for free, belive me.
Manuel J. Paz G. As i said in another post, i am against the blaming culture, but some people can not be trained, especially when it comes down to an issue with attitude and especially at that age/level of experience, and that is a simple fact of life! I could not be a doctor cos i dont have it in me! Having said that i do not know much about that company but i have flown with experience pilots and i have failed a few of them and believe me it is never easy to do that but never over a mistake cos as u said everyone can have a bad day in the cockpit, and that is why there is two of us in there, but over an attitude issue which by the way it had surfaced in the past as well ..
No traces on RAM OSI about this at all....why this cover up !!! Is passengers safety that cheap for them ! How could they inform local CAA but no words to sensibilize operation workers on the Cie
Nicely explained. Unbelievable that anyone would consider putting other people's lives in such peril. BTW, Mentor sent me here... subbed now. Nice channel!
hello captain , i had just seen your video there lots and lots of mistakes in writing whatever you were saying , kindly correct it if possible sir. the video was really nice keep the good work sir .
It might sound silly, but I think there is a huge factor behind these incidents and many more: Blind trust in the safety of the system (and coworkers). It doesn't matter if we speak about IT security, aviation safety, nuclear safety, etc. there is a very important understanding behind them all: We can't make perfectly safe components, we can't improve their reliability, security, safety beyond a point, but we can design multiple different lines of defense between us and a disaster, and when we need multiple seemingly independent failures for a disaster, things can be safe/secure enough. But when people see the system as "perfectly safe anyway" and feel it is safe to undermine "some lines of security" that attitude can mean we no longer need several fully independent failures to happen for a disaster, but we can get to a disaster with *all* the other issues linked to poor safety culture built around the assumption that "I can take a few shortcuts, ignore a few rules, the system will remain safe anyway". People assume it is about their freedom until other people gets hurt, and get angry when anyone checks their behaviour and even more angry if they get punished for taking those shortcuts. But a certain but mild punishment for taking dangerous shortcuts than a fatal accident.
One thing I'm confused about is the configuration procedures on ATR. According to ATR FCTM, configuration management starts at 10 miles from touchdown. But other procedures within the same FCTM have different procedures otherwise. Let's say for example on the Basic ILS procedure, once GS Alive set F15, One dot Gears down, and half dot F30. When you are vectored there can be instances where you will even intercept the ILS 20miles or more, and adherence to this Basic ILS procedures will put you already in a landing configuration very early. Imagine flying 100kts at 20miles, you might be pissing off all the Airbus/Boeing behind you. This kind of of approach configuration can't be practical at all times. Starting the configuration at around 6-7 miles can sometimes put you on a very late speed management at stabilization altitude, especially if you are above 170kts or at 170kts but not aware of the tailwind component which puts you on a very high groundspeed and closing rate.
The FCTM is a training manual. It gives the basic procedures. However, when you are flying in the real world, you adapt to realities. In the FCTM, you intercept the ILS localizer when flying horizontally at 170 kt at 2500 ft or so. This rarely happens in real life. Thanks to the FMS, it's very easy to fly a continuous descent from the top of descent until we cross the runway threshold at 50 ft. On one occasion, I was fully established on the ILS at 14,000 feet (runway elevation 6 ft). So what we do, is to fly the approach and start configuring the airplane at about 2,000 ft above the runway. And thanks to the excellent braking power of the propellers at idle power, we can fly the intermediate segment much faster than the bigger jets, who have more inertia and must slow down earlier than us. I am based at Bangkok Suvarnabhumi Airport. It can be quite busy here. But we never have problems with the bigger jets behind. It's rather the opposite: Quite often, ATC must instruct us to slow down because of a jet ahead of us. Tailwind? We compensate for tailwind by starting configuring the airplane a little higher.
@@FlywithMagnar almost the same in manila captain..!! We adapt to the situation.. crowded and congested airspace.. happy to flying the turboprops.. nice video capt, this is ashok line Capt from cebgo
There’s a big gap between writing to show off( maybe only copying into a manual ) text a got it certified by local CAA and have it understood, respected and applied through traning and measurable objectives.
I'm always bothered by events like this, because it's hard to see what motive the captain could have for engaging in practices that should put his job at risk even if he doesn't crash. If he flies according to the SOP and has to perform a missed approach, and try again, or divert, the the operations department will have to do some rescheduling, but he should be fine. In the instant case, he probably wasn't even at risk of not being able to sleep in his own bed that night. This makes me wonder about the wider safety culture in the airline, and whether there was tacit pressure break the rules to get in to save money.
I cannot agree more. Of course, we want to fly the passengers to their destination, but when the weather doesn't cooperate, we fly to our alternate airport. That is normal. When I was quite new in a company, an instructor messaged me "Good job" after I had made by first diversion. This is how it should be everywhere.
That's what I was thinking when I heard about that incident, 100% that was the captain's habit to make his own rules. I hope he was the last pilot and with this attitude towards procedures
The same dangerous attitude from managment that led to dismissal “due to covid” of the first and unique Moroccan investigator also experienced captain of the airline but unfortunately for him being member of the union for long time , while keeping still flying the responsible for this mascarade flight even being aged over 61 years ...a total breach of labor work during economoc downturn, a total deliberate breach of navigation safety rules...all this to keep « a cettain idea of safety oriented operation » ...but the truth always got revealed sooner or later !
Mentour Pilot sent me here. Very nice and detailed video. You have a really weird accent though. I struggled to understand quite a few of your words. I would struggle even more if I would need to understand you over a poor radio connection. For example, you pronounce 5 more like "fy" than "five". Your "check" is also really odd.
Watching some shows with accents, with subtitles, might help a broader understanding of them. I had no problems in this case, sometimes an accent does take some getting used to though. Came here from Mentour Pilot as well btw :)
@@nathaliezielstra3567 I regularly attend meetings with participents from 10 to 12 nations. Sometimes it's easier to have no native speaker in the group as we tend to use a more simple English. Listen to mentour pilot saying "towards" or "parts" he must be from Sweden, I knew it from the first video ;-) A radio controller is used to talk to pilots from all around the world, so he/she can deal with accents. And last, imagine all the heavy accents among the native speakers.
Awesome summary. I am in the middle of a research for a video about this particular incident and wanted to hear the opinion of someone who flies the ATR.
Well done!
Thanks. If you need more input, please let me know.
@@FlywithMagnar I will!
One question, I was struggling to find any reference to the flap retraction by the captain during the go-around in my version of the final report. My French is a bit raspy though 😂
I rely on Google Translate, and it translates the French word for flaps (des volets) to "shutter". The flaps was selected up at time 19:03:59. It's on page 11 in the report. I'm looking forward to se your video!
@@FlywithMagnar ah, yes! Found it now. The report really didn’t put much emphasis on that little detail. 🤯
@@FlywithMagnar Hi! My video on this accident is now live.
Given the excellent amount of extra info you have provided, I have referenced and linked to your video in mine.
Have a great day and continue your fine work.
//Petter
I came here after watching Mentour Pilot's video. Thank you for the detailed explanation of this incident (almost accident!). I initially thought that this happened a long long time ago, not 2018! It boggles my mind that this happened so recently in this era of flight data monitoring.
I just hope after this the safety dept at RAM was overhauled. Looking at how comfortable the Captain was breaking MDA repeatedly, it was definitely not his first time doing it and may have actually been a habit during such wx conditions. This should have been caught out much earlier.
I was a design engineer for equipment used in Process Control of High Criticality processes for 47 years. The firm had one major rule, 'Almost all sins can be forgiven, but lying will never be forgiven'. I've seen more engineers fired over the years about lying, some for the most insignificant things, then I can count. This story is unbelievable and reminds me more of Barn the Storm days of flying I've read about.
Lesson learned: "Don't let anybody kill you". That is what my former captain said. Regardless whether you are Capt or FO if you see something wrong say it and take action if necessary.
Remember one of the ATR SOP Golden Rule: When things don't go as expected: Take over.
I watched this video and i have to say that i have been a training captain for many years and this is by far one of the best videos i have ever seen! I am really grateful you shared it and i firmly believe it should be shown to every pilot in general and to anyone involved in aviation as it deals with many issues spanning from CRM to compliance to SOP’s, authority in the cockpit to complacency! One aspect that i would like to add to this discussion is that in my opinion the captain involved in the accident was somehow affected by the blaming culture that based on my work experience in the middle east is still very present and that must be eradicated to make serious improvements to safety, even though i am not familiar with RAM express. Once again thanks for sharing!
This is a copy and paste of the comment i left on a post of your video on fb.
Thanks for sharing and it would be a pleasure and honor to share the cockpit with you!!
Dear Captain
Thank you so much for such good analysis & questioning about this major incident.
I did really get a stomachache listening to you.
As retiree former captain B737/767/767/777 (TRI/TRE) i did fly with the Royal Air Maroc for more than 37 years before leaving & flying for other compagnies. During my whole career i did never expect reading about such incredibly dangerous situation happening in RAM.
However, this demonstrate us, that as human being we can expect anything we can't even imagine before, when we loose our references and get completely disoriented and, Further more, when our fear lead us to an unacceptable way of lying !!
Knowing exactly what the RAM sop's are, this major incident must lead the management to reconsider the whole human factor, safety and risk management system!
Thank you so much once again and hope that these kind of incident could help better understanding of the human factor, teamwork, CRM & other subjects related to human being performances.
Thank you for your feedback. Yes, the human nature is complex and not always predictable. Hopefully, such dangerous situations will not happen again.
@@FlywithMagnar This happened because the company encouraged pilots to not follow procedure. This time he got caught out. If he hadn't been caught he and his fellow RAM Captains would be still be breaking procedures. They probably still are. the First Officer didn't demand the Captain to stick to procedures because the other Captains Fly the same way. Its normal and acceptable procedure to not follow procedures. I would take any comment from RAM flight crews to be taken with a pinch of salt about being shocked that this happened.
I am disappointed you didn't make that clear either. Why do you think the investigation didn't even bother to ask the Captain why he broke every procedure and why the First Officer didn't challenge him? This idea that it is a culture that prevents this is crap. That is just a smokescreen to hide the incompetence and negligence of the staff. You know that as well as you know what the procedures are. So why tell only one half of the story? A lot of people nearly got killed.
Actually I understand why you didn't pursue this and its not a problem. This was an excellent video and after watching some of your other vids I have got used to your laid back detailed style. I like it very much.
When I started flying at the end of the 90's i remember i would look at Captain's like they were God's and even seeing them do something wrong i would not speak up because in my head I thought that the captain knows what he is doing so even when we went below MDA i kept my mouth shut because I was scared that the Captain might not like that and might get me fired. One day i finally decided to tell the chief pilot that the captain kept going way below MDA and guess who lost their job?. If you guessed me that's correct I got fired for speaking up, but the reason for being fired was that i was spreading rumors about senior Captain's. I almost quit flying completely but after couple weeks i decided to contact the FAA and FAA actually started investigating them and they found that the two Captain's i was talking about had violated the MDA many times, one Captain violated the MDA nine times in one month. The two Captain's got fired and i got an offer to get my job back but i decided not to go back to that airline where i would be considered a rat. Now i am a Captain and the first thing I tell the first officer i fly with is, if they see me doing anything wrong to tell me or tell me they are taking over control. I actually like to test first officers sometimes by doing something wrong to see if they will speak up and i realized even now first officers will almost never speak up. I would say out of 10 first officers i put through the test only 4 spoke up the others remained quiet.
You did the right thing when you spoke up, and I'm glad that the FAA acted as they did. Some companies have a very good safety culture, where the pilots are encouraged to report incidents. However, there are still companies where the first officers don't dare to report captains who follow their own procedures. This is a serious safety issue.
You might review the difference between plural and possessive.
@@randymartin9876thank you!! I found this post unbearable to read, although I was filled with massive admiration for the guy, who may have saved hundreds of lives by speaking up.
I’m so glad you were taken seriously by the FAA and your actions vindicated. It was the chief pilot, as well as the two captains (note, no apostrophe) who should have been fired - he was totally unfit for the job. This could be Boeing several years down the line 😮. If one of the pilots calls for a go around, it should immediately be instigated. At worst, some missed approach practice. At best, a fatal accident avoided.
I fly the 72 in the Philippines. I love your videos, Captain. Great explanations, even new student pilots will understand.
As a ATR76 TRE with 25yrs on ATRs, l thought I had heard everything. This takes the cake.
Can I show your video an upcoming ATR Pilot refresher course?
Yes, of course. I agree with you: What happened here shouldn't be possible.
Fly with Magnar . Thanks very much
I dont have the authority to grant you the permission as i am not the author of this video, but as a training captain myself although on different airplane - 737ng and CL604/605 - i am encouraging to do so cos it speaks volumes about many issues and i am positive it could and will result in saving lives making more conscious and safe pilots!
The "water monitoring" comment makes me think that this might not have been the first time the captain did this. Perhaps the previous time(s) the visibility was not quite as bad and they had visual reference to the water before hitting it...
I am still curious what altitude the pilots thought they were at when the GPWS rang out the first time. Did they think they were still above the cloud ceiling of 600 ft despite altimeter readings, etc due to the whiteout conditions?
Good video, Magnar! Glad Mentour gave me the heads up about your channel.
Excellent explanation! To me, this shows two things.
1. The ATR is a really well-built plane, coming out of this with only relatively minor damage and no harm to the people on board, despite the captain's effort to f*ck things up.
2. Some people, despite likely meeting formal requirements, just shouldn't be sitting in the front left corner of the aircraft. Seriously, a person who shows no respect whatsoever to the rules and puts the life of people at risk like this has no business flying in my opinion.
I have mentioned it in other videos - I am just an aviation enthusiast who has never controlled a plane in the real world. But as a passenger, I expect the flight crew to pull up when EGPWS tells them to. Yes, it may be a false alarm, systems can malfunction, but usually there is way more space above the plane than below during the approach, so pulling up is the safe option. I rather have them go around, check what's going on, and possibly divert than to just ignore such an important warning or even turn the system off because they are annoyed by it telling them that they are doing something wrong.
Captain wanted to monitor the water to make sure no one stood up in a rowboat...
Thank you very much for your videos , I’m ATR 600 Capt, very useful
I want to thank you by this video due to its huge quality. The analysis was excellent in addition to the great explanations and their conclusions are the best that I've seen. I'm going to follow your channel from now on. Greetings
Glad you enjoyed it!
For what reason was Captain Caliphate downgraded from B-737 to an ATR?
That’s not a step up!
I am very curious what he did to “earn” that substantial demotion.
There’s quite a well documented instance of a land plane surviving heavy impact with water and continuing to fly afterwards, with the proviso here that a) it was a military aircraft, and b) it was on a war operation. On the night of 16th May 1943, Lancaster ED936 flown by Pilot Officer Rice was on it’s way to bomb the Sorpe dam in Germany when it came in contact with the sea (it was at night and they were deliberately flying at an altitude of 30 feet). The impact ripped off the Upkeep mine, buckling the roof of the bomb bay and sending sea water shooting down the rear fuselage. There was a second impact on the tail wheel by either the sea again or the bomb travelling past. This caused the tailwheel to be forced up into the fuselage demolishing the Elsan chemical toilet. The tail gunner was a bit peeved at this point because he was now dripping wet and covered in the contents of the toilet... The aircrew flew back to Scampton, from where they’d taken off and landed with no injuries to the crew.
Wow! That story deserves a video!
Hope that captain does not fly commercially again.
Thank You for the excellent video and very careful explanations Magnar! I am also very glad that Mentour Pilot has pointed us in your direction.
You seem to be a VERY calm person. When you lowered your eyebrow twice as you did I had to laugh out loud about just how deadly serious you were being, while expressing things in such calm terms. You must have seen some very interesting things in your lifetime, to be so calm while explaining such a serous near disaster. Thank you for your contribution to flight safety. I will be watching more of your videos.
I came to this channel at the suggestion of Mentour Pilot. Thank you for the video 😊👍✈️
Welcome!
WHY was the captain transfered to this plane from the 737? What were his past performane reviews?
Good question.
I gues that was after he flew under the Bosporus bridge ;-)
Great and informative video Magnar. Tusen takk 😊
Velkommen
I'd love to know what happened to the captain after this incident. it would be nice to hear that he was blacklisted
Wonderful video Captain, congratulations!!!
hi Magnar, I've already flown on that plane, when I heard what happened I just said pax and crew were miraculous, it's just a crime what that captain did, unbelievable
it's a good thing this plane's engines are up and not under the wings, otherwise it would have been a catastrophe, the design of this plane could have avoided the worst, when I read the investigation report I said again and again it's a divine miracle.😐
Fantastic, plenty to pick out here. Unfortunately we are seeing more and more of these sorts of incidents and accidents. Noncompliance to SOPs is a recipe for disaster.
Did the flight crew at any point explain their actions afterwards?
Absolutely horrific! There was a jump seated cadet pilot learning all those bad tricks from his more experienced colleagues. Shouldn't the Corporate safety culture be examined too? This senior Line training Captain, why was he demoted to ATR and not promoted to a larger aeroplane in the RAM fleet since he was a LTC on B737?
hi Magnar !
i am from Morocco ! and i remember this accident very well , thanks for talking about it , your way to expain is amazing !! keep up !
and , subscribed !
If you are from Morocco you must understand the Feudalistic Bombastic mentality, the old Captain had to show off, and the young guy wanted to impress him, who cares about the passengers, even I had forgotten about it.
This is an interesting channel. Mentor recommended you and I’ve subscribed 👍
Welcome aboard!
Thank you very much for this very interesting analysis!
I learned some things, thank you. This was one lucky flight crew.
This is good stuff Magnar, keep it up please🙂 - Happy landings
Hi sir, excellent video, I'm a TRE/TRI on the ATR, could I use your video as material for my next sim briefings?
Sure, no problem!
@@FlywithMagnar thanks very much
As an aviation enthusiast from Peter's video and your video I don't find any fault with the first officer even though he didn't have much experience he showed his attitude to avoid an accident but he was to obey the captain and that's what has happened and one on the jump seat he was a new guy. And you said one should stand up and say..see if the first officer would stand up and say something then as a new guy the captain will accuse him for disobeying him.Since the captain is lieing the one who made him training captain should be caught and questioned for not testing his attitude in captaincy and instruction.
Good analysis, it was really close. Almost the shit hit the fan
The shit hit the fan and got thrown in all directions! It was only a matter of sheer luck that no loss of lives occurred! Now i am wondering if that captain was put under training or if he was discharger cos, even though i am firmly against any blaming culture, i find it very hard that an attitude like that - consciously deciding to neglect the SOP’s raising yourself above the rules that have been put in place for our safety - can be fixed! i also feel sorry for the f/o who in my opinion if he/she can recover from the experience he/she can learn a great deal from it, that speaking up is not only an abstract concept that you read in a book but it is something that is an essential component of a team work, no matter how steep the authority gradient is! One last thing: i find it hard to believe that that was the first time that that captain shower that attitude and he should have been stopped a long time before. Please share your opinion on this matter. Thanks
Hi
All it is about the safety culture of the company combine with the country culture. The company culture it is unknown for me, I do not know any one there nor worked there neither. The country I am familiar with it since I have flown many times there, I could see that they follow what the manager says mainly, I guess there is excemptions. This kind of environment can make the FO to w react like that. About the captain performance, he did it the on the previous flight so I guess it was normal ops for him to bust the MDA, at least at this airport, I do not know in other airports, I base my opinion on the facts we have now. I flown ATR before and I remember in one of the airlines I flown, there was a case of a Cpt doing a circling and he ended up too high on final, he tried to save the app but the FO call for go around as per SOP, he kept trying, FO call again go around not finding response so the FO took over the controls and execueted the missed approach. Final result they filled up an ASR and the Cpt had some tea and biscuits some sim training problem solve. The application of the just culture and the SOPs in a safety oriented environment help a lot the crew.
Manuel J. Paz G. Well the examiner who passed him over a cup of tea and biscuits is just as “guilty” as the captain if not more, as he disregarded his responsibility to weed out the pilots who show such a dangerous attitude and if someday anything happens to that captain, the examiner as far as i am concerned should be the one to be blamed and held responsible
@@diegobeatrice5257I do not think he got passed only with tea and biscuits. Tea and biscuits was in the office, after that he went throught training and checking, the pass was not for free. Everybody can make mistakes and if properly retrain I think should not be a problem. The sim in that company were at high standard, they did not give anything for free, belive me.
Manuel J. Paz G. As i said in another post, i am against the blaming culture, but some people can not be trained, especially when it comes down to an issue with attitude and especially at that age/level of experience, and that is a simple fact of life! I could not be a doctor cos i dont have it in me! Having said that i do not know much about that company but i have flown with experience pilots and i have failed a few of them and believe me it is never easy to do that but never over a mistake cos as u said everyone can have a bad day in the cockpit, and that is why there is two of us in there, but over an attitude issue which by the way it had surfaced in the past as well ..
Awesome video capt... Lot to learn from you and the descriptions...
No traces on RAM OSI about this at all....why this cover up !!! Is passengers safety that cheap for them !
How could they inform local CAA but no words to sensibilize operation workers on the Cie
I agree with this man ,you should always speak up captain or not ,it's for your safety and that of your passengers.
It should ‘t happen since we are pilot , thank you very much Capt. I love to fly with you again many interesting things to talk about.
Thank you very much for the explanation in relation to this interesting subject.
Nicely explained. Unbelievable that anyone would consider putting other people's lives in such peril. BTW, Mentor sent me here... subbed now. Nice channel!
hello captain ,
i had just seen your video there lots and lots of mistakes in writing whatever you were saying , kindly correct it if possible sir. the video was really nice keep the good work sir .
Very good job and summary of this incident. Thank you for your work.
24:34 - They did not do go thru landing checklist because they knew instinctively that they will fail the checklist.
So glad I found this channel 🙏🙏🙏 thanks
You’re one pilot i would trust to get me safely back on the ground cheers…
Maybe he wasn’t lying about a bird strike…can you PROVE there wasn’t a duck swimming on the Mediterranean when they hit it?
Yes, I checked with the Mediterranean Bird Accident Network (MBAN), and they had no reports on missing birds in that area at the actual time.
@@FlywithMagnar best reply ever ;-)
It might sound silly, but I think there is a huge factor behind these incidents and many more: Blind trust in the safety of the system (and coworkers).
It doesn't matter if we speak about IT security, aviation safety, nuclear safety, etc. there is a very important understanding behind them all: We can't make perfectly safe components, we can't improve their reliability, security, safety beyond a point, but we can design multiple different lines of defense between us and a disaster, and when we need multiple seemingly independent failures for a disaster, things can be safe/secure enough.
But when people see the system as "perfectly safe anyway" and feel it is safe to undermine "some lines of security" that attitude can mean we no longer need several fully independent failures to happen for a disaster, but we can get to a disaster with *all* the other issues linked to poor safety culture built around the assumption that "I can take a few shortcuts, ignore a few rules, the system will remain safe anyway".
People assume it is about their freedom until other people gets hurt, and get angry when anyone checks their behaviour and even more angry if they get punished for taking those shortcuts. But a certain but mild punishment for taking dangerous shortcuts than a fatal accident.
So what happened to the pilots???
Mentor Pilot recommended you.
Welcome!
Great video, very well explained!
One thing I'm confused about is the configuration procedures on ATR. According to ATR FCTM, configuration management starts at 10 miles from touchdown. But other procedures within the same FCTM have different procedures otherwise.
Let's say for example on the Basic ILS procedure, once GS Alive set F15, One dot Gears down, and half dot F30. When you are vectored there can be instances where you will even intercept the ILS 20miles or more, and adherence to this Basic ILS procedures will put you already in a landing configuration very early. Imagine flying 100kts at 20miles, you might be pissing off all the Airbus/Boeing behind you. This kind of of approach configuration can't be practical at all times.
Starting the configuration at around 6-7 miles can sometimes put you on a very late speed management at stabilization altitude, especially if you are above 170kts or at 170kts but not aware of the tailwind component which puts you on a very high groundspeed and closing rate.
The FCTM is a training manual. It gives the basic procedures. However, when you are flying in the real world, you adapt to realities. In the FCTM, you intercept the ILS localizer when flying horizontally at 170 kt at 2500 ft or so. This rarely happens in real life. Thanks to the FMS, it's very easy to fly a continuous descent from the top of descent until we cross the runway threshold at 50 ft. On one occasion, I was fully established on the ILS at 14,000 feet (runway elevation 6 ft).
So what we do, is to fly the approach and start configuring the airplane at about 2,000 ft above the runway. And thanks to the excellent braking power of the propellers at idle power, we can fly the intermediate segment much faster than the bigger jets, who have more inertia and must slow down earlier than us.
I am based at Bangkok Suvarnabhumi Airport. It can be quite busy here. But we never have problems with the bigger jets behind. It's rather the opposite: Quite often, ATC must instruct us to slow down because of a jet ahead of us.
Tailwind? We compensate for tailwind by starting configuring the airplane a little higher.
@@FlywithMagnar almost the same in manila captain..!! We adapt to the situation.. crowded and congested airspace.. happy to flying the turboprops.. nice video capt, this is ashok line Capt from cebgo
There’s a big gap between writing to show off( maybe only copying into a manual ) text a got it certified by local CAA and have it understood, respected and applied through traning and measurable objectives.
It wasn't a bird strike. He probably hit a submarine. Good job by the sub captain!
This is insane! No less...
Thanks
Come on bro, raise the energy levels...
Why, wait, what about the aftermath; what's happened to the pilots!?@?😁😁
Cleared for approach
INSHAH ALLAH!
…AAAAHHHHHHHH!
Captain Caliphate: NO FLAPS FORRR YOU!
I'm always bothered by events like this, because it's hard to see what motive the captain could have for engaging in practices that should put his job at risk even if he doesn't crash. If he flies according to the SOP and has to perform a missed approach, and try again, or divert, the the operations department will have to do some rescheduling, but he should be fine. In the instant case, he probably wasn't even at risk of not being able to sleep in his own bed that night.
This makes me wonder about the wider safety culture in the airline, and whether there was tacit pressure break the rules to get in to save money.
I cannot agree more. Of course, we want to fly the passengers to their destination, but when the weather doesn't cooperate, we fly to our alternate airport. That is normal. When I was quite new in a company, an instructor messaged me "Good job" after I had made by first diversion. This is how it should be everywhere.
I'm sure it wasn't the first time this cpt broke the rules, and the worst of all is that it is possible this guy is still flying...
I hope not
That's what I was thinking when I heard about that incident, 100% that was the captain's habit to make his own rules. I hope he was the last pilot and with this attitude towards procedures
6:40 why they have to complicate with all those names......
Episode from the film "Indiana Jones and the Kamikazes of the Desert".
This Captain still fly??
No
They thought they were a waterplane...
7:00 CANPA and CDFA aren’t the same thing ;)
Yes, I agree on that. CANPA doesn't provide vertical guidance to the pilot. CDFA does. But the profile is the same.
I think this is the worst flight I ever heard of.
Pentagram Airlines
The same dangerous attitude from managment that led to dismissal “due to covid” of the first and unique Moroccan investigator also experienced captain of the airline but unfortunately for him being member of the union for long time , while keeping still flying the responsible for this mascarade flight even being aged over 61 years ...a total breach of labor work during economoc downturn, a total deliberate breach of navigation safety rules...all this to keep « a cettain idea of safety oriented operation » ...but the truth always got revealed sooner or later !
So many whys and only 1 answer: Moroccans....
Mentour Pilot sent me here. Very nice and detailed video.
You have a really weird accent though. I struggled to understand quite a few of your words.
I would struggle even more if I would need to understand you over a poor radio connection.
For example, you pronounce 5 more like "fy" than "five". Your "check" is also really odd.
How many languages do you speak at a higher level than this guy?
Watching some shows with accents, with subtitles, might help a broader understanding of them. I had no problems in this case, sometimes an accent does take some getting used to though.
Came here from Mentour Pilot as well btw :)
@@nathaliezielstra3567 I regularly attend meetings with participents from 10 to 12 nations. Sometimes it's easier to have no native speaker in the group as we tend to use a more simple English. Listen to mentour pilot saying "towards" or "parts" he must be from Sweden, I knew it from the first video ;-) A radio controller is used to talk to pilots from all around the world, so he/she can deal with accents. And last, imagine all the heavy accents among the native speakers.
Are you really too stupid to understand accents?
Thank you for this content. If I had a free wish, I wished you'd improve on your English pronounciation. But besides that, it was a nice video.
His English is excellent! Your manners are shitty. Watch, learn and GTFO. (How about that for proper English?).
Alertch? What’s that?