I’m never now going to fly an ATR (I am well & truly retired) so started watching this merely out of interest, but the discussion of the Startle Factor is worth it’s weight in gold. Well produced Magna!
Wow, this is really one of the best airplane safety videos i have ever seen on youtube. Very informative. And as my old flight instructor used to say “speed is life”. Thank you Magnar, great work!
This French instructor and the Head of Training in AATC always tells us "There's 3 important things in aviation 1.Airspeed 2.Altitude & 3.Fuel. If you don't have speed, you stall and you can die. If you ignore Alt constraint you can go into CFIT and die. If you ran out of fuel, and don't know what to do, you can die" It has been the bedrock principle and always have been the 1st Golden Rule in ATR SOP that in times of trouble, Aviate, Navigate & Communicate in that order. Effective flight planning is a also a great way to combat severe icing. FCOM PRO.NOP.ANOR.8.1.1.8 recommends choosing a cruising FL that provides 40kt margin above icing bug. This margin gives crew ample time to monitor icing, anticipate degredation and define a strategy to avoid it. If icing condition are forecasted on the planned route it is recommended to choose a cruising FL at or below the max ceiling for icing conditions. Pilots can't just choose a cruising altitude without any basis. Also treat the plane like a camel, if you see the camel tired and can no longer walk, let it rest and give it food and water. The ATR ceiling in icing condition is during climb when it reached a max rate of 100ft/mn, better if you add more margin to it. Never force the plane to do things it can no longer perform, be considerate to the plane as well.
I'm not an atr pilot; king air and Cheyenne 2 are what I fly by this was intuitive, great video, definitely educational and i especially enjoyed the discussion about putting the chimp back in the cage conversation. That was great and so very true. A good pilot and a great pilot are only differentiated by the magnitude by how teachable that pilot remains.
You are right captain Never forget speed , in toulouse training center ,instructors Always say in french .la VI ( vitesse indiquée) c'est ta vie . Witch mean Indicated air Speed is your life .
Hi Magnar, I've recently started watching your content and subscribed after an interesting flight on an Aer Lingus Regional ATR 72 which now operates on my usual route. These videos are excellent and informative and I thank you for providing these resouces for AV enthusiasts. I'm very impressed with ATR operations and have a new found appreciation for the aircraft. Best wishes, POR.
@@Vinicius-vo4yppercebi a mesma coisa, esse vídeo simulação pode estar mostrando algo muito próximo do que foi vivido no caso do Brasil. Infelizmente após a tentativa de subir, perdeu-se velocidade e ocorreu o stall em parafuso. Ficarão os ensinamentos. Esperamos que os pilotos e tráfego aéreo sejam mais rígidos e cuidadosos em casos de gelo extremo com aeronaves como essa, e as tirem do solo ou mudem para o vôo ser mais baixo. Segundo relatos de pilotos, o gelo extremo foi reportado! Não somente ao controle de tráfego aéreo, mas nos grupos de whats de pilotos inclusive com foto mostrando gelo nos vidros da cabine totalmente anormais como nunca antes visto. Sinais claro de que algo estava errado mas ninguém teve a capacidade de evitar a tragédia 😢
I have flown ATR 42 in Norway for 8 years. Ice is a natural phenomenon, and ATR aircraft are well protected. In Norway, I experienced icing almost every day. The mantra is simply not flying too slow. I have experienced severe icing once, and that was not in arctic Norway, but in tropical Thailand.
Question the plane was in a flat spin turning to the left what if the pilot would have put the right engine at full throttle reverse thrust and feather the prop on the left engine and apply right rudder to counter act the left spin and once the flat spin stops the pilot puts both engines at full throttle forward thrust and point the nose down to get enough airspeed and climb out...I wonder will that work?
I don't think reverse thrust can be applied in flight, and if the control surfaces are already contaminated, they aren't effective, so there's no way to control yaw or pitch. So, it's possible they were in a situation where they could do absolutely nothing.
I don't have any pilot training but having watched lots of videos about spin recovery one thing seems to stand out: the need to get the nose pointed downward. I don't know if applying thrust is helpful.
Hello Magnar, I'm checking out all your tutorials now, good stuff 🙂. Think it is a very good video for all (aspiring) turboprop aviators. Question: Does the ATR propeller generate considerable vibration in more than moderate icing conditions due to ice on the unprotected area's of the blades? Or not so, because of the shape of these props? On the Fokker 50 vibrations happen and these aircraft even have a kevlar plating on the fuselage next to the prop to prevent damage when ice particles are shed (unevenly resulting in unbalance). Prop vibration on F-50 would indicate quite heavy icing which you need to escape and could as such be one of the indications that one has built up more ice than acceptable. 37 years of flying presented me with (only?) 2 cases of heavy/severe icing and both were over the North Sea in a frontal system. Easy escape down as no terrain. A180 back to were we came from could also have been an option but not necessary as 4000 feet descent solved the problem completely. Best regards, Boy
Hi Boy, thank you for your comments. Ice accumulation can cause propeller vibrations in all aircraft, and ATR is not immune to it. Personally, I have never experienced it. ATR aircraft also have kevlar plating to protect the fuselage from ice being shedded from the propeller.
With the stick pusher acting on the captain’s side, can the elevators decouple if the first officer applies a strong force and tries to pull back? (one should not pull back, but that appears to happen sometimes when activation is unexpected)
I don't see how they certified an aircraft that requires that much analysis and reaction by the pilots to recover from an icing encounter. Don't blame the pilots! For a commercial aircraft there should be just one switch: Anti-ice ON, Anti-ice OFF.
hello magnar, whats the logic behind making the minimum icing speed to be: icing bug+10 kts? wouldn't it be simpler to just place the bug at +10kts and not add further complexity to the procedures? thank you
@@jmrico1979 Minimum speed in icing conditions is icing bug. This is flaps retraction speed after take off in icing conditions. Minimum speed with ice on the airframe is icing bug +10. And because of the incidents mentioned in the video, minimum speed in severe icing is now icing bug +30.
@@FlywithMagnar aahh.. thanks, i think i get it now... so.. if you expect ice, speed no lower than icing bug, if in fact you start picking up ice,then icing bug + 10.. and now thats gonna be +30
The examples shown here show a very similar behavior/pattern to what happened with the ATR in Brazil this week. Sadly, this time after the ascent the plane probably lost too much speed, stalling into an unrecoverable flat spin and killing the 62 people aboard. Hopefully lessons are learned from this event. Also, important to say that although it is winter in the southern hemisphere and is quite normal on Brazil specially in the south, this was an abnormal “cold weather” coming from Antarctica that basically pushed it to the continent because they’re facing unusual warmer temperatures (up to 27C warmer than it should). Climate change is real and it will cause many unprecedented and unpredictable incidents. 3 months ago the southern state of Brazil already suffered with a major flooding, the worst in history that affected millions of people and more than 400 cities, dislodging hundreds of thousands of people and causing major damage (physical, structural, mental, economical…)
Magnar, to avoid TCAS alerts when reaching SET ALT, why not simply increase IAS a bit? For example it is should be enough to use alternative climb speed of IAS 190kt from around -800ft and it will do job nicely. Or is there any glitch I am not aware of?
@@FlywithMagnar Thank you very much for explanation. IAS more aggressive tracking makes sense as VS is obtained by ALT derivation so would be always slower reacting as control loop input after needed filtering compared to IAS obtained by direct measurement.
When I made this video, I read the incident reports, which are based on data from the flight data recorders. I cannot answer why the pilots responded as they did. It's outside my imagination.
@@FlywithMagnar Colgan Airlines 3407 (a Q400) also involved an inappropriate pull-back response to a stall by the captain. There was some speculation that he may have thought he had a tail stall, though the symptoms did not match that, since it was not a tail stall. Unlike the ATR incidents described here, no one survived that mistake.
What if we increased speed just below 0 degrees air temperature level then converted speed to altitude. It would reduce flying time in ice condition. As far as I know there is the heaviest ice condition between 0 and -10 temperature level. Does it make sense?
I see your point. However, icing conditions can exist in a deep area. As you wrote, most icing exists between 0 and -10 degrees. In average, the temperature decreases by 2 degrees per 1,000 feet you climb. That means we may encounter heavy icing in a 5,000 feet thick layer of clouds. It is not possible to zoom-climb that high. If you level off, accelerate and then pull up, you will have a good rate of climb for the next 1,000 feet. Then you have lost your speed advantage. We fly in icing conditions almost every day, and in 99.99 % of the time, we do not encounter moderate, heavy or severe icing. But when it happens, the best solution is to descend into warmer air.
The aircraft is weighed (a scale weight is placed under each wheel). This gives the empty weight. Then, you add the weight of the crew and galley. This is the operating weight. Then, you add the weight of passengers, bags, mail and cargo. This is the zero fuel weight. Then, you add fuel. This is the ramp weight. Then, you subtract the fuel used to start the engines and taxi. This is the take-off weight. Then, you subtract the fuel used from takeoff to landing. This is the landing weight. For passenger aircraft, standard weights are used for passengers and bags. For light aircraft, actual weights of passengers and bags should be used.
I’m never now going to fly an ATR (I am well & truly retired) so started watching this merely out of interest, but the discussion of the Startle Factor is worth it’s weight in gold. Well produced Magna!
Wow, this is really one of the best airplane safety videos i have ever seen on youtube. Very informative. And as my old flight instructor used to say “speed is life”.
Thank you Magnar, great work!
Thanks!
This French instructor and the Head of Training in AATC always tells us "There's 3 important things in aviation 1.Airspeed 2.Altitude & 3.Fuel. If you don't have speed, you stall and you can die. If you ignore Alt constraint you can go into CFIT and die. If you ran out of fuel, and don't know what to do, you can die" It has been the bedrock principle and always have been the 1st Golden Rule in ATR SOP that in times of trouble, Aviate, Navigate & Communicate in that order.
Effective flight planning is a also a great way to combat severe icing. FCOM PRO.NOP.ANOR.8.1.1.8 recommends choosing a cruising FL that provides 40kt margin above icing bug. This margin gives crew ample time to monitor icing, anticipate degredation and define a strategy to avoid it. If icing condition are forecasted on the planned route it is recommended to choose a cruising FL at or below the max ceiling for icing conditions. Pilots can't just choose a cruising altitude without any basis. Also treat the plane like a camel, if you see the camel tired and can no longer walk, let it rest and give it food and water. The ATR ceiling in icing condition is during climb when it reached a max rate of 100ft/mn, better if you add more margin to it. Never force the plane to do things it can no longer perform, be considerate to the plane as well.
I'm not an atr pilot; king air and Cheyenne 2 are what I fly by this was intuitive, great video, definitely educational and i especially enjoyed the discussion about putting the chimp back in the cage conversation. That was great and so very true. A good pilot and a great pilot are only differentiated by the magnitude by how teachable that pilot remains.
Watching this after the ATR crash in Brazil a few days ago, also probably due to severe icing.
You are right captain
Never forget speed , in toulouse training center ,instructors Always say in french .la VI ( vitesse indiquée) c'est ta vie . Witch mean Indicated air Speed is your life .
Hi Magnar, I've recently started watching your content and subscribed after an interesting flight on an Aer Lingus Regional ATR 72 which now operates on my usual route. These videos are excellent and informative and I thank you for providing these resouces for AV enthusiasts. I'm very impressed with ATR operations and have a new found appreciation for the aircraft. Best wishes, POR.
Today there was an accident in Brazil, in an ATR 72, which most likely was because of icing.
Sim, vim resgatar esses dois vídeos logo depois do acidente da Passaredo, triste.
@@andre2704fule interessante que o ATR no Brasil também subiu antes do stall, como nos casos que ele mencionou.
@@Vinicius-vo4yppercebi a mesma coisa, esse vídeo simulação pode estar mostrando algo muito próximo do que foi vivido no caso do Brasil. Infelizmente após a tentativa de subir, perdeu-se velocidade e ocorreu o stall em parafuso. Ficarão os ensinamentos.
Esperamos que os pilotos e tráfego aéreo sejam mais rígidos e cuidadosos em casos de gelo extremo com aeronaves como essa, e as tirem do solo ou mudem para o vôo ser mais baixo.
Segundo relatos de pilotos, o gelo extremo foi reportado! Não somente ao controle de tráfego aéreo, mas nos grupos de whats de pilotos inclusive com foto mostrando gelo nos vidros da cabine totalmente anormais como nunca antes visto.
Sinais claro de que algo estava errado mas ninguém teve a capacidade de evitar a tragédia 😢
@@lipeprusch temperatura de -40 graus por 8 minutos eles enfrentaram, o radar da aeronave pode identificar esse evento extremo?
Fantastic video! Please expand on the significance of 5 degrees pitch in climb when using pitch hold. this is very interesting!
Excellent video: many thanks for sharing such specific details!
Why the nose pitch up after recovery, as mentioned at 10:23? Increase speed and 15° flaps? The ATR in Brazil did an abrupt climb before the flat spin.
Nice video. What I don't understand is how these ATRs are operated in Scandinavia throughout the year without similar incidents?
I have flown ATR 42 in Norway for 8 years. Ice is a natural phenomenon, and ATR aircraft are well protected. In Norway, I experienced icing almost every day. The mantra is simply not flying too slow. I have experienced severe icing once, and that was not in arctic Norway, but in tropical Thailand.
I have been watching your videos. I feel like this is the book by Gabriel Garcia Marquez. Chronicle of a death foretold.
Experienced Pilot: "You need to cage the chimp."
PETA: "Nooooo!"
Question the plane was in a flat spin turning to the left what if the pilot would have put the right engine at full throttle reverse thrust and feather the prop on the left engine and apply right rudder to counter act the left spin and once the flat spin stops the pilot puts both engines at full throttle forward thrust and point the nose down to get enough airspeed and climb out...I wonder will that work?
I don't think reverse thrust can be applied in flight, and if the control surfaces are already contaminated, they aren't effective, so there's no way to control yaw or pitch. So, it's possible they were in a situation where they could do absolutely nothing.
I don't have any pilot training but having watched lots of videos about spin recovery one thing seems to stand out: the need to get the nose pointed downward. I don't know if applying thrust is helpful.
Excellent video.
Hello Magnar, I'm checking out all your tutorials now, good stuff 🙂. Think it is a very good video for all (aspiring) turboprop aviators. Question: Does the ATR propeller generate considerable vibration in more than moderate icing conditions due to ice on the unprotected area's of the blades? Or not so, because of the shape of these props? On the Fokker 50 vibrations happen and these aircraft even have a kevlar plating on the fuselage next to the prop to prevent damage when ice particles are shed (unevenly resulting in unbalance). Prop vibration on F-50 would indicate quite heavy icing which you need to escape and could as such be one of the indications that one has built up more ice than acceptable. 37 years of flying presented me with (only?) 2 cases of heavy/severe icing and both were over the North Sea in a frontal system. Easy escape down as no terrain. A180 back to were we came from could also have been an option but not necessary as 4000 feet descent solved the problem completely. Best regards, Boy
Hi Boy, thank you for your comments. Ice accumulation can cause propeller vibrations in all aircraft, and ATR is not immune to it. Personally, I have never experienced it. ATR aircraft also have kevlar plating to protect the fuselage from ice being shedded from the propeller.
Perfect , thanks captain 👌
Excellent video
With the stick pusher acting on the captain’s side, can the elevators decouple if the first officer applies a strong force and tries to pull back? (one should not pull back, but that appears to happen sometimes when activation is unexpected)
Grate video!
I don't see how they certified an aircraft that requires that much analysis and reaction by the pilots to recover from an icing encounter. Don't blame the pilots! For a commercial aircraft there should be just one switch: Anti-ice ON, Anti-ice OFF.
You’re so ignorant I hope you’re not and never real pilot. 😂😂
hello magnar, whats the logic behind making the minimum icing speed to be: icing bug+10 kts? wouldn't it be simpler to just place the bug at +10kts and not add further complexity to the procedures? thank you
@@jmrico1979 Minimum speed in icing conditions is icing bug. This is flaps retraction speed after take off in icing conditions. Minimum speed with ice on the airframe is icing bug +10. And because of the incidents mentioned in the video, minimum speed in severe icing is now icing bug +30.
@@FlywithMagnar aahh.. thanks, i think i get it now... so.. if you expect ice, speed no lower than icing bug, if in fact you start picking up ice,then icing bug + 10.. and now thats gonna be +30
Not a Pilot
My lesson learned
DO NOT FLY INTO SUSTAINED KNOW MODERATE or worse ICING⁉️
The examples shown here show a very similar behavior/pattern to what happened with the ATR in Brazil this week. Sadly, this time after the ascent the plane probably lost too much speed, stalling into an unrecoverable flat spin and killing the 62 people aboard.
Hopefully lessons are learned from this event.
Also, important to say that although it is winter in the southern hemisphere and is quite normal on Brazil specially in the south, this was an abnormal “cold weather” coming from Antarctica that basically pushed it to the continent because they’re facing unusual warmer temperatures (up to 27C warmer than it should). Climate change is real and it will cause many unprecedented and unpredictable incidents.
3 months ago the southern state of Brazil already suffered with a major flooding, the worst in history that affected millions of people and more than 400 cities, dislodging hundreds of thousands of people and causing major damage (physical, structural, mental, economical…)
😂sheep. Go spew your propaganda elsewhere
Magnar, to avoid TCAS alerts when reaching SET ALT, why not simply increase IAS a bit? For example it is should be enough to use alternative climb speed of IAS 190kt from around -800ft and it will do job nicely. Or is there any glitch I am not aware of?
Adjusting IAS results in a series of pitch changes, as the autopilot tracks speed changes rather aggressively. VS mode is smoother.
@@FlywithMagnar Thank you very much for explanation. IAS more aggressive tracking makes sense as VS is obtained by ALT derivation so would be always slower reacting as control loop input after needed filtering compared to IAS obtained by direct measurement.
Hello Captain,
Why do you think Captains responded to a stall with pulling the control column instead of pushing it? Just curious.
When I made this video, I read the incident reports, which are based on data from the flight data recorders.
I cannot answer why the pilots responded as they did. It's outside my imagination.
They follow to their climb instinct by reacting to the decreasing altimeter .
@@FlywithMagnar Colgan Airlines 3407 (a Q400) also involved an inappropriate pull-back response to a stall by the captain. There was some speculation that he may have thought he had a tail stall, though the symptoms did not match that, since it was not a tail stall. Unlike the ATR incidents described here, no one survived that mistake.
What if we increased speed just below 0 degrees air temperature level then converted speed to altitude. It would reduce flying time in ice condition. As far as I know there is the heaviest ice condition between 0 and -10 temperature level. Does it make sense?
I see your point. However, icing conditions can exist in a deep area. As you wrote, most icing exists between 0 and -10 degrees. In average, the temperature decreases by 2 degrees per 1,000 feet you climb. That means we may encounter heavy icing in a 5,000 feet thick layer of clouds. It is not possible to zoom-climb that high.
If you level off, accelerate and then pull up, you will have a good rate of climb for the next 1,000 feet. Then you have lost your speed advantage.
We fly in icing conditions almost every day, and in 99.99 % of the time, we do not encounter moderate, heavy or severe icing. But when it happens, the best solution is to descend into warmer air.
VS mode really needs to be taught as Very Silly mode 😂
aerocaribbean Cuba november 2010 atr 72 crush at same FL 200
how is this aircraft allowed to operate?
😢🇧🇷
Nice way to teach. Stuck to SOPs... And get the monkey back in the cage... :)
I like your videos as usual. I have a question: How to determine the weight of the aircraft?
The aircraft is weighed (a scale weight is placed under each wheel). This gives the empty weight. Then, you add the weight of the crew and galley. This is the operating weight. Then, you add the weight of passengers, bags, mail and cargo. This is the zero fuel weight. Then, you add fuel. This is the ramp weight. Then, you subtract the fuel used to start the engines and taxi. This is the take-off weight. Then, you subtract the fuel used from takeoff to landing. This is the landing weight.
For passenger aircraft, standard weights are used for passengers and bags. For light aircraft, actual weights of passengers and bags should be used.