@@InrangeTv The JP spring by itself is definitely a worthwhile upgrade. The spring that shipped with my Stag A2 stock set was so loud that it could damage your hearing on its own just from having your ear in such close proximity. The JP spring solved that problem. Unfortunately, I later had to sell that rifle. My current lower that I bought used had an A2 stock and standard-looking buffer, but the spring is silent. Given that the lower also came with one of JP's excellent triggers in it, I'm going to assume it's a JP spring as well. At only $99, the JP trigger is definitely the best-value trigger upgrade you can put on your AR. The 3.5 pound trigger pull is incredibly smooth and light, and the trigger breaks like glass.
@@WardenWolf the JP trigger definitely punches above its weight, if a guy that knows what he is doing tunes it out it is better than most $300 triggers.
Being in the UK, I'll never own an AR (well, unless things go REALLY South...), but I find this stuff really fascinating, as it is, ultimately, about the subtleties of human/machine interfacing and the "engineering process" (which is actually what you're doing). 2 thumbs-up!
But he was a part of the modernization of the AK up to the last few decades, seeing more and more refinements added to the platform as they went. While yes they did keep it simple as possible they did move to smaller calibers and new light weight materials. If it was a young Mikhail Kalashnikov in 2017 designing his first AK I highly doubt that he would go back to materials they dropped in the '70s.
Modern adopted rifle is AEK 971(and in more limited numbers AN 94). It look like AK disassemble for most part like AK. But almost doesn't have recoil due to counterbalance system. Apart from that AK was created as temporal weapon but just stayed as it was already mass produced. But many more or less innovative designs come through years. Main problem is -> generals borderline conservatism and that everybody know how to operate AK. And well that why AEK was adopted It's better in every single way(apart from cost) yet field stripping is just like AK(for good and bad). Right now Kalashnikov company is re-developing Dragunov assault rifle(actually equivalent of assault class is called "avtomat" meaning automatic(rifle)) under name Kalashnikov/Dragunov MA. AK 12 well not everybody in Russia can get fancy AEK(due to costs) and MA still isn't rly mass produced as far it's known.
While it creates an issue of non-captured components, there are benefits to the pin system. Replacements, retrofits, modifications and the like all become easier and cheaper. Instead of seeing AR specific parts, one could adapt to hitch pins from the hardware store, especially helpful if the rifle gets broken down frequently for some reason or another. Additionally, it removes several small springs and detents from the equation which removes possible failure points and makes building a rifle that much easier.
But typically, you build a rifle once. As long as it doesn't require three hands and a special tool, you don't have a significant benefit to not having the captured pins. You take at least the rear pin out every time to clean the rifle. If the rifle breaks often, the solution is to fix the rifle, not make it easier to take apart. If you were truly worried about spring and detent failure, you could leave them out or remove them. Also, if they do fail, the most probable mode is that they fail in such a way that the pins are no longer captured. Having the pins captured has a benefit realized every time the rifle is cleaned and can be converted to not having them if the rifle owner desires. Not having them seems like a poor design choice.
I love the spring sound and vibration in my AR never really thought of it from a practical standpoint but from shooting for fun perspective I like it it's just one more experience the rifle brings you
M16A2, first impressions during BRM in 1996. "Drillsar, the weapon goes 'Boink'. I'm supposed to destroy the enemy and intimidate them with my weapon, not Boink them to death with it, Drillsar. " "Damn you Keller." - Drill Sergeant Harrison after firing the weapon and hearing the "boink". Once heard, you can never unhear it. That ridiculous Boink noise inside the stock always bothered me.
best marketing video ever, this buffer system is sweeeet!! i have one in my bcm lower and it is smooth, reliable, and quiet, everything a buffer should be
Very glad you guys found the JP Captured Spring for this project. It sounds stupid, but even when you charge the rifle it just feels smoother. Plus if you're into tuning rifles an adjustable gas block and this spring setup make it very easy.
No mention of the added weight? I thought that’s a primary design focus for the project. Chromium silicate Springs (carbine length) with a mil spec carbine buffer got rid of my twang. Apparently they last longer too. Put a spacer in for rifle length. stock.
i have the JP buffer, i agree that it is pricey but i love it. it is all one unit, smooth, and reliable, and if you need to make adjustments to the system you can change the springs and or buffer wights and it is easy to do. i would say it is well worth the price.
I actually put one of these in a high end AR build I did a while ago. Not that the old spoon on cheese grater sound really bothered me, but it really smoothed up the action quite a bit and I've actually found it to aid in faster follow up shots 👍
I think I'm gonna buy one of these for my 9mm AR. I already have to waste tons of money on it, so why not go full in from the start. Thanks guys, that made the decision easier.
i run hoppes oil on my m1 garand..... the field manual i have from 1941 says to use grease if ya got it....if not, just use SOMETHING (in 42, they said use ONLY oil....in 44 they said use ONLY grease....because in 42 we were fighting in Africa sand....in 44 we were fighting in french mud) ive used 10w-30 motor oil before on my lever action marlin.... its not perfect..... but its a LOT better than shooting it dry
Patreon supporter. My buffer spring detent is currently broken on my rifle and I wasn't sure how I wanted to proceed. Saw this video. Thanks so much for the info. By bye detent forever.
Whoo. THIS kind of thing is exactly why I'm paying close attention to this project. I'd never go with a fixed full-length stock, so no polymer lower for me (as an example of a baseline component I WON'T copy from this build). But a captured buffer assembly that eliminates that detent pin business, THAT is an obviously important idea. Never knew about this product before now. (Now off to go find out how expensive they are... Oh, boy...)
The other benefit of the JP SCS is they're available with various spring strengths, which gives you more control in tuning the gas system along with BCG and buffer mass. Pairing a weaker spring with a lower mass BCG and buffer allows the rifle to cycle on less gas without speeding up the cycling rate or risking bolt bounce.
Armaspec makes a very similar product called the stealth recoil spring for about half the cost of the JP kit. I've heard it's pretty good. Maybe you can compare the two?
@@ticoruizsuarez I know people can really get down to little details for aesthetics but how does that buffer spring looking better matter when you can't see it at all when the guns assembled?
Harry Jangles they don't supply the same dead-blow hammer/buffering effect. This single weight system will not work as well in adverse conditions due to only having one solid mass at the end rather than multiple weights that can impact into each other providing the dead-blow hammer/buffer effect.
Someone else's review concluded the difference was small so while the JP was, in thier opinion, better the Armaspec was so much cheaper it was more cost effective and still superior to basic buffers and springs in every way.
One point in favor of keeping the original SPRONG buffer assembly is that it sounds distinctly different on the last round when the bolt locks back For me, that's the main thing that alerts me that I'm out of ammo Seems like it would be easier to just remove the retaining pin so it doesn't fail, as Karl says
The first time I fired an M16, in 1974, I thought the damn rifle had broken because of the sproing in my ear. I had trained on M14s and we carried M1s at the Air Force Academy which gave a good cheek weld and no sproing through bone conduction. I never fired the M1 but I had good success with the M14 at the 1000m range at Camp Bullis.
I really like the JP silent buffer in a lightweight AR project I recently finished, one thing that I think is important is too make sure there is no "free space" between the BCG and the buffer assembly. I think JP mentions this in the instruction, but its easy to overlook. Great product, cool video!
Over 20k rounds on the M16/M4/AR-15 platform, worked in company armory even, never heard or seen of a broken buffer retainer. When assembled the buffer is pressing on the BCG, so the detent only has stress on it when the rifle is taken apart shotgun style. I really dont see how this could be a problem.
I have a the JP SCS and can agree with what has been said. It does make the rifle shoot a little nicer. Also no malfunctions after thousands of rounds. It makes the rifle feel like shooting a low recoil piston gun. The sproing sound does become annoying when shooting .300 blk subs and this system would make a difference. I can't say anything on making the rifle more controlable, a standard spring seems to be a little flatter. What this item does is greatly improved the impulse.
I put one dog these in my rifle about a year ago and I love it. I bought it direct from JP for like $75 on a promotion. I’m going to use them in every rifle I build from now on. Probably. I’m debating a hydraulic buffer in my next one if I can find one that isn’t prohibitively expensive.
Dammit "In Range"...... I'm Off to go shopping for a JP Buffer Spring now! lol Seriously, Thank You both for the AMAZING Content you guys bring to the 2a community.... "INVALUABLE"!!!
If you aren't running an A2 stock like 98% of us, the buffer retainer keeps the receiver extension centered. Plus it's a lot easier yo open and close your upper with the buffer and spring held back out of the way.
Question, were the people breaking the buffer detent off running piston uppers? I've come to realize why H&K reworked the part after watching Bloke on the Range's discussion of the Ljungmann and Stoner direct gas impingement systems. Any carrier tilt from a piston system like in the HK 416 will beat the hell out of that detent. So HK reinforced and ramped the detent to mitigate the issue.
One thing that has me wondering about them breaking... With a proper retainer and BCG, that tip does not touch anything at all. It's only when that tip is a touch long that it touches anything. When the upper is closed, the BCG slightly pushes the buffer rearward so the retainer only does anything when gun is opened. I've been shooting ARs since 1983, never seen one break during use.
My first A2 spring made a very loud and obnoxious sound, to the point where it could damage your hearing by itself if your head was up against it. The one that's in my current rifle, which I purchased used, does not. It's possible the spring was replaced with a JP spring (which I did with my first one), which does, by itself, dramatically reduce the noise.
When I was building my rifle I seriously considered getting this exact spring/buffer. The cost was just too high but the reasons I thought it would be good are explained perfectly by Ian & Karl. Now I am seriously considering upgrading... Especially since I also remove my detent/spring and am tired of having to break it open with my thumb in the exact right spot to make sure the whole thing doesn't hit the hammer.
this has happened to me on my 11.5 in sig 556..it broke off and fell between the lower and the spring on my geissele trigger and the force of me pulling the trigger jammed it so deep down and bent in/behind so it was a nightmare to take out...very true statement in this video!
I'm new to the AR, My battle gun of choice has been the AUG. But I picked up an AR because they cost less than an optic. The very first thing I noticed about the AR was that it didn't make the spring noise. My AUG sounds like a spring factory exploded every time it cycles. Your jaw is welded to the part the spring is pressed against. My AR has layers of plastic between me and the buffer tube. It is very quiet when cycling. I notice the massive muzzle break I have, much more than any spring sound. All that said I hate the idea of a loose spring and buffer. So I'm sold on a captured one! Glad to see I'm not the only person who is OCD about parts flopping around.
I'm curious how the JP captured buffer system would compare with my go to setup. An A5 H2 buffer and Tubb flatwire spring. I've yet to have anything but flawless operation with multiple barrel lengths, gas system lengths, and everything from 50 grain .223 to 77 grain 5.56 NATO.
nice job fellas! i use the very similiar Shooting Innovations RRD recoil reduction device in my modded go-to FN 16" M4 carbine. i have 2 FNs and both have super smooth and quiet buffer systems. no "sproing" with either, but i was curious about the RRD so i gave it a shot in my M4 and im glad i did. The RRD has a captured spring system and guided buffer like the JP system and runs very smooth and silent. but it also has a 2nd stage system with a floating spring loaded weighted collar at the end of the buffer tube that suposedly counteracts the recoil impulse upon firing. it also has a softer nylon bumper to absorb the shock of the BCG bottoming out. when manually cycling the bolt the travel is very smooth and silent with a steady progressively firming spring resistance in the last 2" of travel. it feels like the BCG never actually bottoms out but stops and then reverses held aloft by the spring impetus. whatever and however it does, it actually does lessen (modify) the perceived recoil impulse. i cant tell if it makes the recoil event longer or shorter but the net result is a softer shooting rifle and a noticeably more controllable recoil event. id say it has a 15% to 30% net effect overall and especially firing offhand rapid fire, it helps me keep rapid pairs and triples inside the A-zone at 25 yds. it also makes my non free floated M4 less jumpy from the bipod. i think it really works and id love to see you guys do a review and test of it. any chance you can give Shooting Innovations a call and get a RRD for testing? keep up the good work and ill keep an eye out for the RRD!
I did quite a bit of research when assembling my rifle, this was one component along with the relia-bolt that I made a point to purchase. Can you please address the raised point that these JP spring kits allegedly wear out over time and last for a fraction of the cycles that a milspec spring or a flat spring kit (reportedly that Jerry miculek uses) for an AR-15?
I'm assuming that the captured system is going to be heavier than the standard. How does it impact the balance of the rifle? I've heard that 75% of total weight on the pistol grip and 25% on the off hand is what you're supposed to be going for with some give or take on how much the shoulder holds, how do the WWSD rifles fare?
Ive sort of been copying the wwsd rifle, with the weight savings of the poly lower the weight is oriented more towards the muzzle, at least with the 18in faxon barrel. A little more weight in the rear might be benificial.
A lot of Air rifles these days have replaced the mainspring with what are called gas rams (very similar to the struts you find on the tailgate of your car) overall consensus amongst air gunners is,they operate more smoothly than a spring and last longer too. Couldn't the same thing be adapted for an AR?
The "Slinky" Noise is something to get used to, if you are new to the AR Platform. I still remember the first time I was running my friend's AR9 on the clock for USPSA. I was thinking to myself, that gun sure makes quite a bit of funny noises. It was disconcerting to me at that moment.
What's the weight difference between a standard recoil spring and buffer system with this JP system? I watched the video and I don't think I recalled you mention this? You did say that it makes the rifle handier, which I'd assume is due to having more weight in the rear.
Yeah, I suppose it would be minor. But the WWSD project is always about "cutting weight wherever we can in practical applications" as that was the original intent of the upbringing of the AR-15 platform so I would just like to hear that input from them regarding that aspect directly.
Sproing? Lol! What I heard when qualifying with the worn out rack issued M16A1's was this very annoying " SHOOP-UOOP" as the buffer assembly shuttled back and forth in the stock. I was an Expert Marksman. Concentrated and focused, and, I still heard it! My rifle and others! Lolol! This captured unit is great!
I bought one of these and put it in my A2 stock without the detent. For some reason the buffer would move forward out of the tube just enough to keep the upper and lower assemblies from separating for disassembly. Still trying to figure it out. As of right now the detent is still in it, and taking that new spring out is horrendous.
The "SPROING" is to me, a retired competitive swimmer, is much like the white noise the water made around me during a race. That white noise let me know my form was perfect. That "SPROING" let's me know everything is working right. Much like on my yugoslavian sks
This is the only thing I have not upgraded. I do know the noise it’s annoying but then there’s the gun shots, just saying can’t bitch about noise when you shoot a gun. I was waiting for Geissele to do a rifle length but I like your take & the idea. AWESOME video concept; thought on a Kalashnikov/ AK one?
Not irrelevant. Not everyone is running around playing soldier like you. The fact that I don't have that annoying sound against my noise-canceling earmuffs is worth every penny.
How much thought has been given to the field-worthiness of these rifles? It looks like they're outstanding for a moderately-physical match environment, but I'm not so sure that a lot of the lightweight components are sufficiently grunt-proofed. I think the handguards are most concerning.
To me the biggest Advantage is that it's tunable and can dramatically reduce felt recoil. Something I personally don't care about, but whenever I was building an AR for my girlfriend who's recall sensitive it was a key component. Combined with a superlative arms bleed off adjustable gas block and Brownells lightweight bolt carrier group her compact 300 Blackout 8 inch pistol has less felt recoil than 20 inch rifle with a rifle length gas system and fixed A2 style stock. It's actually kind of astounding. It doesn't even have a muzzle brake. Just a flash hider.
As just a little personal side note, a cheaper alternative would be a standard buffer and spring setup with JP's polished and tuned buffer spring. I thought it didn't make much of a difference with noise at first, having built my rifle with that part from the start, until I put a magazine through an M&P15 that was bone stock. It sounded like jumping on an old mattress, while the JP tuned and polished was silent with a smidge of Astroglide lithium grease. Going to point out that I'm aware this option isn't a captive spring system. It's just cheaper, and works great. 5K+ rounds (stopped counting) of whatever the hell I feel like shooting through my build with this spring, never had a malfunction that wasn't caused by a brass catcher mounted on the rifle bouncing brass the wrong way. Looking at you, Caldwell, ruining my perfect record.
Nice troll with the VZ58.
I laughed my ass of when I saw that :D
lol had a good laugh at that ...
A subtle stab at pretty much everybody, including national propaganda machines :P
Ahh yes, the good ol' Canadian AK.
Please start all product reviews with infomercials from here on out.
IKR
"one less potential point of failure" is going on my tombstone
3 years later and I still find myself coming back to the What Would Stoner Do? Series lol. Bravo guys! Always killer work!
Thank you, a new video is dropping Thursday.
And here I am 6 years later haha
The JP Buffer Spring is quieter than the footsteps of a Navy SEAL.
Yes. Most quietest. ~K
@@InrangeTv The JP spring by itself is definitely a worthwhile upgrade. The spring that shipped with my Stag A2 stock set was so loud that it could damage your hearing on its own just from having your ear in such close proximity. The JP spring solved that problem. Unfortunately, I later had to sell that rifle. My current lower that I bought used had an A2 stock and standard-looking buffer, but the spring is silent. Given that the lower also came with one of JP's excellent triggers in it, I'm going to assume it's a JP spring as well. At only $99, the JP trigger is definitely the best-value trigger upgrade you can put on your AR. The 3.5 pound trigger pull is incredibly smooth and light, and the trigger breaks like glass.
@@WardenWolf the JP trigger definitely punches above its weight, if a guy that knows what he is doing tunes it out it is better than most $300 triggers.
Being in the UK, I'll never own an AR (well, unless things go REALLY South...), but I find this stuff really fascinating, as it is, ultimately, about the subtleties of human/machine interfacing and the "engineering process" (which is actually what you're doing).
2 thumbs-up!
You can get a 22LR AR.
you can get a straight pull bolt AR :^)
Well 3 years later and your odds are looking much better, unfortunately I guess?
You could one way or the other.
I take it a restoration of British gun rights is unlikely?
I'm looking forward to the sister series, WWKD (What Would Kalashnikov Do).
But he was a part of the modernization of the AK up to the last few decades, seeing more and more refinements added to the platform as they went. While yes they did keep it simple as possible they did move to smaller calibers and new light weight materials. If it was a young Mikhail Kalashnikov in 2017 designing his first AK I highly doubt that he would go back to materials they dropped in the '70s.
Nyet, rifle is fine! 🐆
it exists, it's called the AK-12.
Modern adopted rifle is AEK 971(and in more limited numbers AN 94). It look like AK disassemble for most part like AK. But almost doesn't have recoil due to counterbalance system.
Apart from that AK was created as temporal weapon but just stayed as it was already mass produced. But many more or less innovative designs come through years. Main problem is -> generals borderline conservatism and that everybody know how to operate AK. And well that why AEK was adopted It's better in every single way(apart from cost) yet field stripping is just like AK(for good and bad).
Right now Kalashnikov company is re-developing Dragunov assault rifle(actually equivalent of assault class is called "avtomat" meaning automatic(rifle)) under name Kalashnikov/Dragunov MA.
AK 12 well not everybody in Russia can get fancy AEK(due to costs) and MA still isn't rly mass produced as far it's known.
He would buy a AR-15
This is the quality content I subbed for.
Karl having to struggle to find some way to be frustrated with the normal buffer is hilarious
Yeah, that infomercial bit was a great way to say, "Listen, we know this is a nitpicky thing, just bear with us."
Wait, are the take-down pins not captured on that lower? Talk about a component to get lost in the field.
Yes, that is an issue with the lower. ~Karl
Drat, and I was so close to buying one of those for my next AR, even though it doesn't have an adjustable length of pull.
While it creates an issue of non-captured components, there are benefits to the pin system. Replacements, retrofits, modifications and the like all become easier and cheaper. Instead of seeing AR specific parts, one could adapt to hitch pins from the hardware store, especially helpful if the rifle gets broken down frequently for some reason or another. Additionally, it removes several small springs and detents from the equation which removes possible failure points and makes building a rifle that much easier.
But typically, you build a rifle once. As long as it doesn't require three hands and a special tool, you don't have a significant benefit to not having the captured pins. You take at least the rear pin out every time to clean the rifle. If the rifle breaks often, the solution is to fix the rifle, not make it easier to take apart. If you were truly worried about spring and detent failure, you could leave them out or remove them. Also, if they do fail, the most probable mode is that they fail in such a way that the pins are no longer captured. Having the pins captured has a benefit realized every time the rifle is cleaned and can be converted to not having them if the rifle owner desires. Not having them seems like a poor design choice.
I have wondered about the feasibility of drilling a couple holes in the stock ala HK 90-series rifles
"Tried to switch but the AK just doesn't live up to the hype!" **Casually uses VZ-58**
Karl's face at the 0:40 mark is simply priceless. Bless you guys. That opening was fucking great.
rip vz 58
I rewatch these videos somewhat regularly. This is certainly something you should do again.
Great WWSD series, guys. In building, slowly, my first AR, your investigations and suggestions are invaluable.
I love the spring sound and vibration in my AR never really thought of it from a practical standpoint but from shooting for fun perspective I like it it's just one more experience the rifle brings you
M16A2, first impressions during BRM in 1996.
"Drillsar, the weapon goes 'Boink'. I'm supposed to destroy the enemy and intimidate them with my weapon, not Boink them to death with it, Drillsar. "
"Damn you Keller." - Drill Sergeant Harrison after firing the weapon and hearing the "boink".
Once heard, you can never unhear it.
That ridiculous Boink noise inside the stock always bothered me.
Boink
@@recklesssquirel5962 Boink
@@markbrown4597 boink
best marketing video ever, this buffer system is sweeeet!! i have one in my bcm lower and it is smooth, reliable, and quiet, everything a buffer should be
Very glad you guys found the JP Captured Spring for this project. It sounds stupid, but even when you charge the rifle it just feels smoother. Plus if you're into tuning rifles an adjustable gas block and this spring setup make it very easy.
"...is that a VZ?" [read comments] I KNEW IT, GODDAMMIT KARL
I know you'll get a lot of hate but I loved you referring to a vz58 as and ak. Lol. Love your sense of humor Karl!
No mention of the added weight? I thought that’s a primary design focus for the project. Chromium silicate Springs (carbine length) with a mil spec carbine buffer got rid of my twang. Apparently they last longer too. Put a spacer in for rifle length. stock.
+sarkology Weight is a primary, but not only, concern. ~K
i have the JP buffer, i agree that it is pricey but i love it. it is all one unit, smooth, and reliable, and if you need to make adjustments to the system you can change the springs and or buffer wights and it is easy to do. i would say it is well worth the price.
I like the Armaspec SRS captured springs, because they’re about $50-60 cheaper than the JP, depending on who you get it from.
I actually put one of these in a high end AR build I did a while ago. Not that the old spoon on cheese grater sound really bothered me, but it really smoothed up the action quite a bit and I've actually found it to aid in faster follow up shots 👍
I think I'm gonna buy one of these for my 9mm AR. I already have to waste tons of money on it, so why not go full in from the start. Thanks guys, that made the decision easier.
What kind of lube would this ultimate WWSD AR use? High quality Crisc... i mean fireclean for that extra added smokey tast... i mean lubrication.
Whatever we have laying around. Typically I use SLP2000 because I have a life time supply of free samples. ~K
And all the Wizard Oil still lying around, obviously
i run hoppes oil on my m1 garand.....
the field manual i have from 1941 says to use grease if ya got it....if not, just use SOMETHING
(in 42, they said use ONLY oil....in 44 they said use ONLY grease....because in 42 we were fighting in Africa sand....in 44 we were fighting in french mud)
ive used 10w-30 motor oil before on my lever action marlin....
its not perfect..... but its a LOT better than shooting it dry
Ballistol is big here in Switzerland.
MJY spit
I'm thinking of trying the Geiselle 'Super 42' spring & buffer combo. That or a Spikes 4 oz buffer with a blue Sprinco spring.
This is the quality content I subscribe for
That intro deserves an Oscar!
Patreon supporter. My buffer spring detent is currently broken on my rifle and I wasn't sure how I wanted to proceed. Saw this video. Thanks so much for the info. By bye detent forever.
+10 Internet points for Karl's comedy acting chops
I have one also on my 14.5" piston AR and I absolutely love it! It feels better then my Colt Canada SA20.
Whoo. THIS kind of thing is exactly why I'm paying close attention to this project. I'd never go with a fixed full-length stock, so no polymer lower for me (as an example of a baseline component I WON'T copy from this build). But a captured buffer assembly that eliminates that detent pin business, THAT is an obviously important idea. Never knew about this product before now. (Now off to go find out how expensive they are... Oh, boy...)
Interesting, never seen the capture spring detent break off, but it makes perfect sense that it would. Food for thought.
The other benefit of the JP SCS is they're available with various spring strengths, which gives you more control in tuning the gas system along with BCG and buffer mass. Pairing a weaker spring with a lower mass BCG and buffer allows the rifle to cycle on less gas without speeding up the cycling rate or risking bolt bounce.
Armaspec makes a very similar product called the stealth recoil spring for about half the cost of the JP kit. I've heard it's pretty good. Maybe you can compare the two?
thanks for the heads up
thanks for pointing at it, i was going to ask for a comparison too
Yeah the armaspec kit it’s way cheaper, looks better (black) and reduce the recoil about 45%
@@ticoruizsuarez I know people can really get down to little details for aesthetics but how does that buffer spring looking better matter when you can't see it at all when the guns assembled?
I don't want to put my name looks better as it’s black, I don’t like chrome at all
Have you guys looked into the Armaspec Silent Recoil Spring? Seems like it might be a more affordable (~$75) alternative to the JP SCS.
Harry Jangles they don't supply the same dead-blow hammer/buffering effect. This single weight system will not work as well in adverse conditions due to only having one solid mass at the end rather than multiple weights that can impact into each other providing the dead-blow hammer/buffer effect.
No one has ever complaint about the Armaspec buffer, JP it’s just weird one for me
Someone else's review concluded the difference was small so while the JP was, in thier opinion, better the Armaspec was so much cheaper it was more cost effective and still superior to basic buffers and springs in every way.
@@darthhodges not to mention nearly 2 oz lighter which was kinda the goal for wwsd
One point in favor of keeping the original SPRONG buffer assembly is that it sounds distinctly different on the last round when the bolt locks back
For me, that's the main thing that alerts me that I'm out of ammo
Seems like it would be easier to just remove the retaining pin so it doesn't fail, as Karl says
I really appreciate the humor, information and good production in this video. Keep it up!
I went to a flat wire spring it seems to work fine at 1/4 of the price!
SO CHEAP SO GOOD SO NOT CAPTURED
That's what I did as well when was picking buffers. Seems to be an improvement but nothing revolutionary.
How is that an improvement? :o
The first time I fired an M16, in 1974, I thought the damn rifle had broken because of the sproing in my ear. I had trained on M14s and we carried M1s at the Air Force Academy which gave a good cheek weld and no sproing through bone conduction. I never fired the M1 but I had good success with the M14 at the 1000m range at Camp Bullis.
I really like the JP silent buffer in a lightweight AR project I recently finished, one thing that I think is important is too make sure there is no "free space" between the BCG and the buffer assembly. I think JP mentions this in the instruction, but its easy to overlook. Great product, cool video!
Best WWSD video yet.
Life Goal: buy Karl a few adult beverages and get him on stage at a comedy club ... hilarity would ensue!
Karl are you going to defcon next year?
EastPhilly ummm ... okay?
Learn something new everyday. I have been shooting M-16s and AR 15s for over fifty years and never knew that the buffer retainer pin breaks. Hmmmmmmm!
Over 20k rounds on the M16/M4/AR-15 platform, worked in company armory even, never heard or seen of a broken buffer retainer. When assembled the buffer is pressing on the BCG, so the detent only has stress on it when the rifle is taken apart shotgun style. I really dont see how this could be a problem.
I'm not gonna lie, that intro was pretty epic.
The noise difference is definitely not negligible when shooting a suppressed setup, especially 300 or 9mm.
I was on the fence with the JP buffer system but hearing Ian say he approves it, I am sold 😂
I have a the JP SCS and can agree with what has been said. It does make the rifle shoot a little nicer. Also no malfunctions after thousands of rounds. It makes the rifle feel like shooting a low recoil piston gun. The sproing sound does become annoying when shooting .300 blk subs and this system would make a difference. I can't say anything on making the rifle more controlable, a standard spring seems to be a little flatter. What this item does is greatly improved the impulse.
I put one dog these in my rifle about a year ago and I love it. I bought it direct from JP for like $75 on a promotion. I’m going to use them in every rifle I build from now on. Probably. I’m debating a hydraulic buffer in my next one if I can find one that isn’t prohibitively expensive.
Dammit "In Range"...... I'm Off to go shopping for a JP Buffer Spring now! lol Seriously, Thank You both for the AMAZING Content you guys bring to the 2a community.... "INVALUABLE"!!!
JP Enterprises should be paying you guys for that intro.
0:26 what is that an AK 58 or a VZ 47?
Brilliant format. Great video. I enjoyed the discussion.
If you aren't running an A2 stock like 98% of us, the buffer retainer keeps the receiver extension centered. Plus it's a lot easier yo open and close your upper with the buffer and spring held back out of the way.
Question, were the people breaking the buffer detent off running piston uppers?
I've come to realize why H&K reworked the part after watching Bloke on the Range's discussion of the Ljungmann and Stoner direct gas impingement systems. Any carrier tilt from a piston system like in the HK 416 will beat the hell out of that detent. So HK reinforced and ramped the detent to mitigate the issue.
All the ones I've seen broken were in standard "DI" AR15s, but what you said about the reason HK did that makes sense as well. ~K
One thing that has me wondering about them breaking... With a proper retainer and BCG, that tip does not touch anything at all. It's only when that tip is a touch long that it touches anything. When the upper is closed, the BCG slightly pushes the buffer rearward so the retainer only does anything when gun is opened. I've been shooting ARs since 1983, never seen one break during use.
Armaspec made something incredibly similar to this but it's about $50. I have one and really like it
I found this to be humorous, great job fellas!
My first A2 spring made a very loud and obnoxious sound, to the point where it could damage your hearing by itself if your head was up against it. The one that's in my current rifle, which I purchased used, does not. It's possible the spring was replaced with a JP spring (which I did with my first one), which does, by itself, dramatically reduce the noise.
Cool video, I am curious when the bolt and/or bolt carrier analysis will drop.l?
These really are great parts
I love this WWSD series
When I was building my rifle I seriously considered getting this exact spring/buffer. The cost was just too high but the reasons I thought it would be good are explained perfectly by Ian & Karl. Now I am seriously considering upgrading... Especially since I also remove my detent/spring and am tired of having to break it open with my thumb in the exact right spot to make sure the whole thing doesn't hit the hammer.
what's wrong with letting the buffer hit your hammer?
this has happened to me on my 11.5 in sig 556..it broke off and fell between the lower and the spring on my geissele trigger and the force of me pulling the trigger jammed it so deep down and bent in/behind so it was a nightmare to take out...very true statement in this video!
Never thought about replacing my buffer till now, effective marketing at it's best.
I'm new to the AR, My battle gun of choice has been the AUG. But I picked up an AR because they cost less than an optic. The very first thing I noticed about the AR was that it didn't make the spring noise. My AUG sounds like a spring factory exploded every time it cycles. Your jaw is welded to the part the spring is pressed against. My AR has layers of plastic between me and the buffer tube. It is very quiet when cycling. I notice the massive muzzle break I have, much more than any spring sound. All that said I hate the idea of a loose spring and buffer. So I'm sold on a captured one! Glad to see I'm not the only person who is OCD about parts flopping around.
JP Silent Buffer of Vltor A5 system?
I'm curious how the JP captured buffer system would compare with my go to setup. An A5 H2 buffer and Tubb flatwire spring. I've yet to have anything but flawless operation with multiple barrel lengths, gas system lengths, and everything from 50 grain .223 to 77 grain 5.56 NATO.
I been using the Armaspec AR-15 Stealth Recoil Spring, it lower cost and works just as well.
Mike Hughes exactly
Springs don't wear out because of static load (sitting for a long time under tension). They break from dynamic use (bolt cycling, disassembly, etc)
BTW. Foxtrot Mike sells the Heavy Duty spring pin for $5.
Oh my god I loved this
I'm curious as to whether the armaspec version of this (which is liter) would be a better fit for the WWSD rifle.
nice job fellas!
i use the very similiar Shooting Innovations RRD recoil reduction device in my modded go-to FN 16" M4 carbine.
i have 2 FNs and both have super smooth and quiet buffer systems. no "sproing" with either, but i was curious about the RRD so i gave it a shot in my M4 and im glad i did.
The RRD has a captured spring system and guided buffer like the JP system and runs very smooth and silent.
but it also has a 2nd stage system with a floating spring loaded weighted collar at the end of the buffer tube that suposedly counteracts the recoil impulse upon firing.
it also has a softer nylon bumper to absorb the shock of the BCG bottoming out.
when manually cycling the bolt the travel is very smooth and silent with a steady progressively firming spring resistance in the last 2" of travel.
it feels like the BCG never actually bottoms out but stops and then reverses held aloft by the spring impetus.
whatever and however it does, it actually does lessen (modify) the perceived recoil impulse.
i cant tell if it makes the recoil event longer or shorter but the net result is a softer shooting rifle and a noticeably more controllable recoil event.
id say it has a 15% to 30% net effect overall and especially firing offhand rapid fire, it helps me keep rapid pairs and triples inside the A-zone at 25 yds.
it also makes my non free floated M4 less jumpy from the bipod.
i think it really works and id love to see you guys do a review and test of it.
any chance you can give Shooting Innovations a call and get a RRD for testing?
keep up the good work and ill keep an eye out for the RRD!
Karl - The Tactical Billy Mays lives on!
I did quite a bit of research when assembling my rifle, this was one component along with the relia-bolt that I made a point to purchase. Can you please address the raised point that these JP spring kits allegedly wear out over time and last for a fraction of the cycles that a milspec spring or a flat spring kit (reportedly that Jerry miculek uses) for an AR-15?
The JPSCS will not wear out faster than a mil spec style system. Given that the correct system is used in the correct platform.
Ben Zimmerman thanks. Forget where I read it but supposedly the jp spring just didn't get as much life. Thanks!
Best video yet, maybe sharing first place with Ian's drug runner getup in the Red Oktober match. That was hilarious. :D
Excellent information!!👊😉👏👍
SMOOTHEST CYCLING EVER!!!
I'm assuming that the captured system is going to be heavier than the standard. How does it impact the balance of the rifle? I've heard that 75% of total weight on the pistol grip and 25% on the off hand is what you're supposed to be going for with some give or take on how much the shoulder holds, how do the WWSD rifles fare?
I dont think I noticed a difference in weight, I find it to be an unnoticeable difference personally
Ive sort of been copying the wwsd rifle, with the weight savings of the poly lower the weight is oriented more towards the muzzle, at least with the 18in faxon barrel. A little more weight in the rear might be benificial.
woget264 even with a carbon fibre handguard?
Stop Vargposting. More important than overall lightness I would say
I wish the MAS 49/56 had a captured recoil spring, that thing is a pain to put back together with that long spring. Even the SKS had one...
Best. Intro. Ever.
A lot of Air rifles these days have replaced the mainspring with what are called gas rams (very similar to the struts you find on the tailgate of your car) overall consensus amongst air gunners is,they operate more smoothly than a spring and last longer too.
Couldn't the same thing be adapted for an AR?
The "Slinky" Noise is something to get used to, if you are new to the AR Platform.
I still remember the first time I was running my friend's AR9 on the clock for USPSA.
I was thinking to myself, that gun sure makes quite a bit of funny noises.
It was disconcerting to me at that moment.
What's the weight difference between a standard recoil spring and buffer system with this JP system? I watched the video and I don't think I recalled you mention this? You did say that it makes the rifle handier, which I'd assume is due to having more weight in the rear.
Yeah, I suppose it would be minor. But the WWSD project is always about "cutting weight wherever we can in practical applications" as that was the original intent of the upbringing of the AR-15 platform so I would just like to hear that input from them regarding that aspect directly.
Sproing? Lol! What I heard when qualifying with the worn out rack issued M16A1's was this very annoying " SHOOP-UOOP" as the buffer assembly shuttled back and forth in the stock. I was an Expert Marksman. Concentrated and focused, and, I still heard it! My rifle and others! Lolol!
This captured unit is great!
I bought one of these and put it in my A2 stock without the detent. For some reason the buffer would move forward out of the tube just enough to keep the upper and lower assemblies from separating for disassembly. Still trying to figure it out. As of right now the detent is still in it, and taking that new spring out is horrendous.
Aw man I was really looking forward to you folks testing it when suppressed. It looks like this product was designed to be used when suppressed!
The "SPROING" is to me, a retired competitive swimmer, is much like the white noise the water made around me during a race. That white noise let me know my form was perfect. That "SPROING" let's me know everything is working right. Much like on my yugoslavian sks
I took out my buffer pin because the damn spring broke and the stupid thing kept falling out, who knew it actually helps the AR run a little better
This is the only thing I have not upgraded. I do know the noise it’s annoying but then there’s the gun shots, just saying can’t bitch about noise when you shoot a gun. I was waiting for Geissele to do a rifle length but I like your take & the idea. AWESOME video concept; thought on a Kalashnikov/ AK one?
Not irrelevant. Not everyone is running around playing soldier like you. The fact that I don't have that annoying sound against my noise-canceling earmuffs is worth every penny.
Is that a Selous Scouts osprey on Ian’s shirt?
How much thought has been given to the field-worthiness of these rifles? It looks like they're outstanding for a moderately-physical match environment, but I'm not so sure that a lot of the lightweight components are sufficiently grunt-proofed. I think the handguards are most concerning.
The lower is not perfect, but it's a step in the right direction. We discuss this in the lower video coming out next week. ~K
To me the biggest Advantage is that it's tunable and can dramatically reduce felt recoil. Something I personally don't care about, but whenever I was building an AR for my girlfriend who's recall sensitive it was a key component. Combined with a superlative arms bleed off adjustable gas block and Brownells lightweight bolt carrier group her compact 300 Blackout 8 inch pistol has less felt recoil than 20 inch rifle with a rifle length gas system and fixed A2 style stock. It's actually kind of astounding. It doesn't even have a muzzle brake. Just a flash hider.
Stamp O’ Hubris™ velcro patches WHEN GUYS
Best video ever
As just a little personal side note, a cheaper alternative would be a standard buffer and spring setup with JP's polished and tuned buffer spring.
I thought it didn't make much of a difference with noise at first, having built my rifle with that part from the start, until I put a magazine through an M&P15 that was bone stock.
It sounded like jumping on an old mattress, while the JP tuned and polished was silent with a smidge of Astroglide lithium grease.
Going to point out that I'm aware this option isn't a captive spring system. It's just cheaper, and works great. 5K+ rounds (stopped counting) of whatever the hell I feel like shooting through my build with this spring, never had a malfunction that wasn't caused by a brass catcher mounted on the rifle bouncing brass the wrong way. Looking at you, Caldwell, ruining my perfect record.