Make the entire campaign setting a place that's basically the border of the underworld, and then how to run the Gamism of Simulating (of ACKSing) the situation becomes fertile and engaging grounds for emerging Narrativism... and then roleplay should be good. But... shades of it. The things encountered in "the underworld" being from places less liminal but encountered in those chaotic caverns. Every encounter being gateways through which the world's lore and broader tensions, or just the Simulation of the world's situation, are conveyed to engage with the players. I like the Eldar Webway, by the way. It's more than just a "fast travel" device, but the crossroads, the borderlands, the tool with which to interact, in measured doses, with the world's diverse regions without having those regions smash into each other until everything is only a shatter/splinter zone. The exotica of the space between places can exist without straining suspension of disbelief too much, or anchoring the explanation for the "megadungeon"'s existence too strongly into any one folklore.
Ultimately almost anything can be justified, and further to that, I feel that's half the fun for the DM. A strange encounter that's really out of place to a given scenario/locale is an opportunity for creativity and a means to expand events.
We've completely lost any sense of wonder to the world. We can't just accept that there are things that are beyond explanation, or that maybe don't require explanation, they just ARE. Each subsequent edition's culture of players seem to want to inject more and and more 'real life' into the game. To the ridiculous degree its gotten where modern gamers want to live out this fantasy version of their own real lives with their character as an avatar for themselves. Or everything exists to "subvert expectations". "It's a game about dungeons and dragons? Well then we're running a taco truck.". The fear of the unknown is lost on these people. Because you're not supposed to think about the Balrog sitting on the couch reading the newspaper or going to the refrigerator to drink from the milk carton. But thats EXACTLY what Modern DND culture is! The Balrog shopping for groceries and waiting in line at checkout.
We had an interesting discussion on this on X, but I see your point now a bit more, although I think it depends on what exactly. For example, having some new creatures take up residence makes sense; having a stairway magically appear where there wasn't one before not so much (but depending on the context could be explained, for example a wall could have broken or something revealing something that wasn't noticed previously). I guess the main issue is SHOULD you care about ecological sense when designing a dungeon, or treat it as a game? It sounds like you're arguing the latter; while it might make ecological sense the carrion stuff will arrive first, that IS boring but would it make sense for say some orcs to just move in (and it might, depending on the circumstances). A lot of modern players would have an issue, I think, with not caring about ecological sense. But is that really a good thing? I'm not sure. Also to continue with the "mythic underworld" thing, I guess what I still find so strange is the idea that somehow every dungeon is this mythical place, rather than existing in a logical place that's meaningful to the world at large (e.g. a ruined keep, a forgotten crypt, and so on) where it would be inhabited by creatures that would logically arrive there or be lurking there (e.g. a band of orcs has taken up residence in the ruined keep, the forgotten crypt has undead guardians left by the previous inhabitants) rather than a seemingly-random assortment of monsters that exist just to be overcome by the PCs. Like to use the Moria example: We know why there are orcs there (it's a long-abandoned dwarf city in the mountains and orcs hate the sunlight), and we know why the balrog is there (the dwarves "dug too deep" and awakened it). The watcher is the only thing that's kind of nonsensical, everything else makes sense.
It applies more directly to a game setting that is explicitly Law vs. Chaos. I think of it like Diablo. What's the first thing they say when they go into the dungeon? "The sanctity of this place has been fouled". What was once reality has been corrupted and now exists in unreality. Where do all these skeletons come from? Why does gold fall out of the tombs? What do these little Imp dudes on Level 3 do all day when they're not chasing adventurers? They're all manifestations of chaos. It doesn't need to make ecological sense, not because you're hand waving it, but because you've crossed the threshold of reality.
2 thoughts: 1- I think *some* of the people saying it would take months to repopulate must be thinking of little dungeons, like ten rooms or so, and wondering why you're talking about going back after it was cleared. The ones who know what a mega dungeon is and don't restock are probably a lost cause. 2- something like the save point thing is built into the movement rules, since you go 5x faster(I may have that number wrong) in mapped areas and, therefore, have 1/5 the random encounters getting back to where you were. Not really relevant, I just think it's neat.
As with most things, there are different styles, variations and nuances of fantasy and sci-fi- even within the various genres. And instead of pointless arguing over what's correct or what makes sense, people just need to stick to the type of gaming THEY prefer and leave it at that. I've read novels and rpg's where dungeons are almost like living, breathing entities. Others are bridges to or planes unto themselves. Others are dank, dusty, shadowy remnants of the past. All are valid and all can be creepy and deadly. That being said, "fun-house" dungeons serve no purpose and are dead to me. That is all.
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Make the entire campaign setting a place that's basically the border of the underworld, and then how to run the Gamism of Simulating (of ACKSing) the situation becomes fertile and engaging grounds for emerging Narrativism... and then roleplay should be good.
But... shades of it. The things encountered in "the underworld" being from places less liminal but encountered in those chaotic caverns. Every encounter being gateways through which the world's lore and broader tensions, or just the Simulation of the world's situation, are conveyed to engage with the players.
I like the Eldar Webway, by the way. It's more than just a "fast travel" device, but the crossroads, the borderlands, the tool with which to interact, in measured doses, with the world's diverse regions without having those regions smash into each other until everything is only a shatter/splinter zone. The exotica of the space between places can exist without straining suspension of disbelief too much, or anchoring the explanation for the "megadungeon"'s existence too strongly into any one folklore.
Ultimately almost anything can be justified, and further to that, I feel that's half the fun for the DM. A strange encounter that's really out of place to a given scenario/locale is an opportunity for creativity and a means to expand events.
100% agree. I love the challenge of making something strange fit and work into the setting and game. That's the fun part, for me, of being the DM.
Yes even a Sadistic DM using Puppets! I'll allow it! 😜
@@calvanoni5443 Hey I resent that comment - I don't use puppets during the game! 😁
@@Merlinstergandaldore We know all the monsters are your Puppets!
These principles put the game back in the dungeon 🎉
We've completely lost any sense of wonder to the world. We can't just accept that there are things that are beyond explanation, or that maybe don't require explanation, they just ARE.
Each subsequent edition's culture of players seem to want to inject more and and more 'real life' into the game. To the ridiculous degree its gotten where modern gamers want to live out this fantasy version of their own real lives with their character as an avatar for themselves.
Or everything exists to "subvert expectations". "It's a game about dungeons and dragons? Well then we're running a taco truck.".
The fear of the unknown is lost on these people. Because you're not supposed to think about the Balrog sitting on the couch reading the newspaper or going to the refrigerator to drink from the milk carton. But thats EXACTLY what Modern DND culture is! The Balrog shopping for groceries and waiting in line at checkout.
DM “ the party opens the door into 10x10 room- suddenly (roll..roll..roll) an Ancient Red Dragon attacks! “ randomness can be a killer
We had an interesting discussion on this on X, but I see your point now a bit more, although I think it depends on what exactly. For example, having some new creatures take up residence makes sense; having a stairway magically appear where there wasn't one before not so much (but depending on the context could be explained, for example a wall could have broken or something revealing something that wasn't noticed previously). I guess the main issue is SHOULD you care about ecological sense when designing a dungeon, or treat it as a game? It sounds like you're arguing the latter; while it might make ecological sense the carrion stuff will arrive first, that IS boring but would it make sense for say some orcs to just move in (and it might, depending on the circumstances).
A lot of modern players would have an issue, I think, with not caring about ecological sense. But is that really a good thing? I'm not sure.
Also to continue with the "mythic underworld" thing, I guess what I still find so strange is the idea that somehow every dungeon is this mythical place, rather than existing in a logical place that's meaningful to the world at large (e.g. a ruined keep, a forgotten crypt, and so on) where it would be inhabited by creatures that would logically arrive there or be lurking there (e.g. a band of orcs has taken up residence in the ruined keep, the forgotten crypt has undead guardians left by the previous inhabitants) rather than a seemingly-random assortment of monsters that exist just to be overcome by the PCs. Like to use the Moria example: We know why there are orcs there (it's a long-abandoned dwarf city in the mountains and orcs hate the sunlight), and we know why the balrog is there (the dwarves "dug too deep" and awakened it). The watcher is the only thing that's kind of nonsensical, everything else makes sense.
It applies more directly to a game setting that is explicitly Law vs. Chaos.
I think of it like Diablo. What's the first thing they say when they go into the dungeon?
"The sanctity of this place has been fouled".
What was once reality has been corrupted and now exists in unreality.
Where do all these skeletons come from? Why does gold fall out of the tombs? What do these little Imp dudes on Level 3 do all day when they're not chasing adventurers?
They're all manifestations of chaos. It doesn't need to make ecological sense, not because you're hand waving it, but because you've crossed the threshold of reality.
2 thoughts: 1- I think *some* of the people saying it would take months to repopulate must be thinking of little dungeons, like ten rooms or so, and wondering why you're talking about going back after it was cleared. The ones who know what a mega dungeon is and don't restock are probably a lost cause.
2- something like the save point thing is built into the movement rules, since you go 5x faster(I may have that number wrong) in mapped areas and, therefore, have 1/5 the random encounters getting back to where you were. Not really relevant, I just think it's neat.
As with most things, there are different styles, variations and nuances of fantasy and sci-fi- even within the various genres. And instead of pointless arguing over what's correct or what makes sense, people just need to stick to the type of gaming THEY prefer and leave it at that.
I've read novels and rpg's where dungeons are almost like living, breathing entities. Others are bridges to or planes unto themselves. Others are dank, dusty, shadowy remnants of the past. All are valid and all can be creepy and deadly.
That being said, "fun-house" dungeons serve no purpose and are dead to me. That is all.
@@windmark8040 I don't advocate for fun house dungeons either.