Three words: Official Linux support. That's what I need! It's not great that most other Linux-first brands aren't competitive, but Framework delivers! (Although I don't see a point of the Intel model over the AMD Ryzen models!)
@@DywanTvit means that the company put effort into making the product work on Linux, ie choosing parts like audio, wifi or fingerprint with open source drivers.
@godoflight558 Heck, even most Tuxedo laptops (which were built in collaboration with some ODMs, or original design manufacturers) don't have working fingerprint sensors under Linux even if they include them. Framework not only has them, but they work under Linux.
This. Looking at the "Linux" section of several laptops that were tested on this channel will make it very clear why Linux users are flocking to Framework in droves
I see this as a broader Linux issue rather than a Framework-specific problem. Generally, Linux users are often forced to choose between expensive, niche, or outdated hardware to get optimal support. If Linux aims for mainstream adoption, a more pragmatic approach is necessary. Embracing a hybrid model with a combination of open-source software and proprietary drivers/kernel extensions is essential. As a consumer, I'm unwilling to sacrifice hardware performance or compatibility for the sake of strict FOSS adherence.
Framwork's idea is great, but it's ridiculous to start selling a Core Ultra Series 1 laptop about a month before the Core Ultra Series 2 laptop comes out, unless you sell it for a cheap, which is definitely not the case here.
There might not be a core 200 or zen 5 upgrade. Both of those generations do not support sodimm as of now. So framework might not have them. Unless maybe camm happens
I feel like you're missing the point if you spend half the review talking about how things like the case and the keyboard don't seem to have changed much since "previous generations" of the framework, because... it's literally the same case and keyboard. That's kind of the whole idea. It's also funny how when qualcomm puts out a processor that has inferior performance but lower power draw, everybody says it's exciting and innovative, but when intel puts out a processor with the same performance as last year but drawing half the wattage, it's a disappointment. (I mean, you totally should be disappointed in Intel's behavior these last couple of years, but this isn't the reason why.) That said, it's pretty late in the life cycle of the processor to be putting out this mainboard, and there aren't a lot of areas where it would be better than the AMD version that's been out for months.
The whole idea of the laptop is that the parts are replaceable with better ones, not that the keyboard and trackpad should remain the exact same across multiple generations. The keyboard itself is completely fine and it's something they don't need to replace but the trackpad should have gotten a revision to make it haptic at least.
@@nitrobear you can't expect the same attention to details from a small company that is still in the development stage and has way more important to worry about, give it some time and I'm sure they'll come out with a solution just gotta be patient.
@raute2687 Actually, upgrading is part of the formula. That's why the Cooler Master case was created. Framework is about keeping electrics out of landfills, having longer usable life. You are meant to upgrade as you see fit.
@@nitrobearwhile I agree that a trackpad upgrade would be nice, constantly refreshing things isnt really the point here. this video spent a weird amount of time emphasizing that the standardization hasnt become unstandard lol
Looking into it, and I was so disapointed with how expensive it is to upgrade the laptop. A new motherboard/cpu + new screen comes out to over 1000$ dollars. Might as well buy a new laptop every couple of years then just upgrading this one. Edit: just wanted to say that I do love framework's overall mission and goals. I am rooting for them. I just hope one day it is feasible to buy for me (a poor person)!
Used ThinkPad. 5x cheaper than Framework 13 and really upgradeable. In particular, if you want a good robust and repairable laptop, you can look for the ThinkPad T480. If you do not need the rigidity of ThinkPad and only need performance and upgradability, then look for Dell Latitude 5591 and Precision 3530. I switched to the Precision 3530 from the T480 because of the equally good upgradability, and because it was being sold off at my company for cheap. I would wager that it's even more repairable for the average consumer than the T480, which may sound blasphemous, but it's simply due to there being both a DC jack and a Thunderbolt port for 65W charging, and the DC jack is easily replaceable as it is connected with a cable instead of being soldered, like on the T480 with its USB-C ports, a single point of failure. The Dell Precision 3530 is basically a cheaper and lower-end ThinkPad P52 alternative, with a 6-core processor and serviceable Quadro P600 graphics. The dGPU is not made for gaming, as it only uses 20W, but it has NVENC and 4GB of VRAM, which is great for a cheap workstation such as this. It smokes the ThinkPad T580. One gripe is with Dell enforcing planned obsolescence by forcing a BIOS update which disables undervolting and thus takes away 15% performance, makes the CPU hot and the laptop loud. If you find a Precision 3530 or a Latitude 5591 with a BIOS version 1.10 or lower, it's worth paying $30-40 extra for, and you must disable UEFI Capsule Firmware updates, as well as automatic Windows driver updates. Never update it to version 1.11 or higher. Same goes for other undervoltable Dell laptops.
@@viv12348Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose though? Might as well buy a new laptop and get a new chassis. So the only thing they got going for them is upgradability but the whole "more expensive upfront but pays off in the long run" falls flat on its face.
Upgradable is just a marketing gimmick. Not even desktop computers are upgradable for practical purposes. After several years you want to upgrade your desktop? Well the new CPU won’t fit your motherboard. Not so bad I’ll just get a motherboard. Oh no I need new RAM too? Well I might want to upgrade my GPU if I’m gaming. At this point the only components left are the case, PSU and SSD. No not the PSU because it needs upgrading for the new GPU.
3:23 As somebody who uses the right control key frequently, thank you Framework for not following trends and also including Linux options for their laptop keyboards (keyboards with a Super key instead of a Windows key)!
This is a laptop i wish was competitive. I dont like the idea of buying inferior products for years on end for the sake of principles, especially when you are strapped for cash
It if was gauged as a laptop, it really does suck in many areas. Price, expensive. Performance, behind. Battery life, not there. Touch screen, nope. Speakers...ho-hum. OLED, nope.
I feel like people are getting too caught up in consumerism and having the fanciest nicest tech every year. I got a first gen framework for college, and it still does just as good a job with that as it did originally (mid tier a little over 1k when i bought it). Yeah, it'll never have the absolute most power but are you trying to play AAA titles on your 13 inch? idk. even my 11th gen intel chip can do light gaming which is all I do anyway
One thing that I feel is not expanded enough (and I'd also say it's the #1 feature, before the upgradeability) is the repairability. With this laptop, barring some really unfortunate accidents, you're basically guaranteed you can use the laptop for 10 years! Including if Framework goes bankrupt tomorrow. I don't think any other laptop, except the old Thinkpads, could give you this guarantee, even if some models could easily last 10 years. Also, in those 10 years (which don't have to be used by you, you can sell it after 5 years, or parts of it) you do have the easiest and cheapest repairs. Another thing, on the upgradeability - with more and more models for each component, you can really build the laptop you want, in quite some detail. If you find a keyboard you like, you can keep using it, even if you change the whole rest of the laptop internals (basically as if you change the laptop entirely). Same with the screen, if you happen to find one that you really like, you can keep using it. For example, you might want to have a highend CPU, but you actually prefer the lower quality display, with the lower pixel count, because you actually don't need a higher resolution or framerate, but you do need the extra battery life. On basically all other laptops, if you have a premium CPU, you'd also have a premium screen - which makes sense, but in the rare ocasions when that would be detrimental, you have no options. Framework gives you options. Many more options. There's also the "ok, last motherboard + CPU + RAM had their course, now's time for an upgrade" - besides selling them, you can also very easily convert them into a mini pc for a Home server. Lastly, some people might simply want Framework for the clearly better environmental impact. Like I said in the begging - unlike the most laptop space, these laptops are made to have a very long life, which means less thrown junk per unit of time. Frankly, unless local AI actually becomes REALLY useful for most people, then just like an M1 Air is still very good today, so would a Framework or any laptop with a modern Intel or AMD CPU should be very good for normal and casual use for a long time. More than 10 years, I'd say. So laptops that have a lifespan of 10+ years should become the norm.
The #1 selling point for me with Framework is Linux support. #2 selling point is repairability and upgradeability - I'm not a fan of System76's Sager/Clevo rebadged hardware nor do I want to be messing around trying to hack Linux to run decently on . I'll be buying when Ryzen 300 updates are available - Probably FW16 if the spacer issues are addressed, otherwise FW13. Not interested in Intel until they have something meaningful to offer and mobile CPUs are definitively (and independent of Intel's penchant for lying) found to not be defective as are their desktop processors.
The spacer issues have been addressed on shipping units; I can verify because I have one. And I agree, System76 actually has worse build quality than Framework and is similarly priced with worse screens.
@@cameronbosch1213 The keyboard deck flex of initial reviews did get addressed. The spacer gaps are still hit and miss - Take a look at the Framework subreddit for recent photos. Some people have better luck than others. I suspect the 'real' fix is going to be along the lines of eliminating spacers for those of us who only want a centered keyboard/trackpad.
@@true7563 Read the AMD specs pages. They support DDR5 or LPDDR5X. LPCAMM2 is LPDDR5X soldered to a carrier module rather than directly onto the motherboard. Framework will have no issue adopting Ryzen 300 while also allowing for user upgradeable memory. Intel's Lunar Lake on the other hand is an SoC - Almost the entire system (including RAM) is bundled onto the processor package (so zero upgradeability). Intel Arrow Lake, the actual upgrade from Framework's corrent H series Core Ultra models, will start shipping from Intel at end of 2024/early 2025 and go back to offering non-SoC SKUs. Everybody paranoid that all RAM will be soldered in the future should take a deep breath and relax... That may be the future of some laptop models but soldered memory will not become an actual requirement anytime soon.
I want companies like framework to succeed. I hope they grow a lot and they manage to bring down prices. Also hope for a Copprlink port, the new upcoming standard for egpus.
@@Sithhy Oculink has been around for a while. Copprlink is what was in the works for a while and got finalized on May 1, 2024. It is for PCI 5.0 and beyond.
Given that the 7840u model already exists, this model seems pretty unnecessary you're basically getting slightly less performance while having slightly more battery life (which was surprising to see tbh).
To be fair, Intel Lunar Lake seems to not have any upgradeable RAM options and is limited to 32 GB at the top end, so Framework probably will not offer that generation. AMD Hawk Point was barely any different, so Framework already confirmed that they won't offer it. And AMD Ryzen "A.I." 300 CPUs also don't seem to have upgradable RAM at the moment, so I would be shocked if we see any new Framework CPU options this year, given there literally isn't any option for them. Well, at least until CAMM2 is released.
@@cameronbosch1213Yes, it is interesting how Framework will navigate these roadblocks. I assume they have a plan but to date I have not seen any leaks. I am not an upgradeable devotee but understand there are people that live by that mantra. I am unwilling to pay a premium (tax) for that privilege, though I am willing to pay the Apple Tax for the quality and top-notch features. So each to their own…
I like this channel, but the battery life reports are frustrating - surely every viewer wants to know *how many hours a laptop runs for* on a given test, not what the percentage remaining is after a particular amount of time. Why make the viewer pause the video and get their calculator out, rather than just tell them? It's very strange.
Framework's product methodology is really refreshing to see in the industry but they need to work on their CPU availability timelines and the pricing. Paying the amount they charge even for pre-built devices currently is pretty absurd when it rivals similarly spec'd flagships by slapping on accidental damage protection or an extended warranty
I wish there were data comparing models beyond the review units. I can't find comparaison between the 7640U and 7840U anywere, and same goes for the new Intel Core Ultra. The only data is about the most powerful models, which is kind of a shame as it's doesn't show the full picture and also kind of changes the value argument as those are the most expensive.
I feel like you guys are missing the point on framework. I want to have just one laptop for ideally a decade or two. I don’t want to get a new laptop every 3-5 years and create more waste. Also I feel the price is high due to their manufacturing being much smaller in scale in comparison to say, Asus or others. But it’s also understandable the price is high for most consumers so other brands would be a better choice.
Yea, I too wish they were cheaper, but they are about as cheap as they can be given the industry. Also, I see you didn't talk about the new webcam. Did it not ship with the new webcam?
the new gen for framework will be a challenge for sure, zen 5 does not support soddim memory and it is rumored that it will be the same for the new lunar lake chips from intel. we'll just have to see how framework adapts to this market trend
@@bennettderrico5845 Not on the ultrabook AMD5 chips. They are soldered on the motherboard to save costs and get faster speeds with lower latency, mainly for AI use. Framework sells 95% ultrabooks.
@bennettderrico5845 Given it's just Asus who are using Zen 5 at the moment, I wouldn't be surprised if AMD releases options with both CAMM2 and SO-DIMM.
I truly appreciate the work you're doing for laptop buyers, and I wish you would create similar in-depth, unbiased videos for other tech products, like smartphones. I understand that testing and reviewing laptops requires a significant amount of time and effort, but it would be fantastic to see you expand your coverage to more products while maintaining the high standards and quality in your testing and video production.
repairability? best feature by far IMO. Did it even get mentioned? if so not much. Im sick and tired of having to get parts from some random vendor on the internet and wondering if they are lying about the battery a genuine part. My last battery was almost certanly not. They are also really easy to replace, my dad needed a keyboard, his laptop had plastic studs melted in place ala hot rivets, I had to break them out then glue the new keyboard back in. I value the confidence of being backed by a manufacturer that keeps parts around and allows the customers to buy them directly. Thats why I also try to stick with Bosch and Dewalt power tools.
5:44 Josh, I think you need to realize that Framework sells older models with slightly older yet still capable for their age CPUs at a discount. That pretty much removes that point of contention. And not to mention, the new screen and other upgrades can be added on post purchase, unlike the other competitors, where a removable SSD is basically all that you get. And those don't get great Linux support. Framework will probably keep its value in the second-hand market much better than other laptops because one broken critical part won't make the entire thing e-waste.
Why are you posting so many comments? I think you can put this all together one comment no problem. To me you are just spamming at this point, I have seen like four of your comments already and one isn't even constructive criticism, is just you saying you didn't like the video.
@@cameronbosch1213 Sorry if I am being too blunt, but making 7 comments in one single video, one of them is just saying you don't like the video and one comment accusing him of shilling out for big tech, that sounds like spamming. And I don't really have a reason to believe RUclips would hide your comment for being too big.
Early indications are that small companies and developers are the target market for frameworks to developed its products. The good news is that you can upgrade at the pace of future development. We agree that this market segment do require productive 16 inch laptops. Developing a smaller 13 inch was a distraction with its own brand and cost disadvantage, which is adequately served by the competition in other markets. Maybe you should compare it with star labs range of laptops.
@@McMaxW right now the RAM has to be soldered on, that's probably not a good fit for the framework customer base. Has it been announced camm2 is coming? I didn't see anything about that. Probably a fair guess even if it wasn't announced.
Josh, you do great and thorough reviews and I’m sure your mother is very proud. Want to make her even more proud? How about popping a live Linux stick into every computer you review and give us the Lenox friendly results . There are so many attractive Asus units out there and I really want a sexy unit that will run Linux and be a bit more cutting edge than Framework. How about it?
Sadly, at that price the laptop market has moved on to more powerful efficient chips, the M4, AMD5 and upcoming Intel (September release). So, the Core Ultra Series 1 short life was because it was a filler cycle because of the delay in the better chipset. I would never recommend anyone buying a Core Ultra Series 1.
@andyH_England Sure, it's bad timing, but I don't think Framework will release anything more this year, unless AMD can get their act together and release a more powerful new Radeon 7000S GPU or if CAMM2 becomes mainstream.
I feel framework buyers understand this will not be as tuned as a lump of glue with parts embedded in it, wont be as optimal but id give up 5-10% performance for the upgradability, and OFFICIAL LINUX SUPPORT. Personally wont notice the lower performance for what I do, but I will notice the money if i have to replace a wifi card or just want to buy some ram to make it last longer.
As a Framework fanboy, I think these criticisms are not only VALID, but also absolutely CRUCIAL to be take into account if FW wants to stay viable in the near future. Must must must Maybe create an updated clamshell/chassis, that will have better cooling, allowing newer chips to use and dissipate more power? Continuing this trend of leaving performance on the table because u cant dissipate power, is dangerous.
I'm sure they are working on different things, but development takes time. Just think about how much development time there was before being able to release the first Framework 13.
@@4n0nmann5 It honestly depends. There will be some cases where a low wattage 4060 will perform better than a high wattage 4050 because it has 8 GB VRAM instead of 6 GB. You can't just look at one chart.
At this rate I don't see them leaving the Linux niche. Which it's not necessarily such a bad thing, but surely they were meant to be more ambitious than that.
@robhunt8378 Given Microsoft has been pushing users off of Windows like crazy since 2021 (and even as far back as 2012), I can say Framework is truly a great hardware company because of that. Most brands you'll be lucky if there are third-party tools to control the system on Linux, like with Asus or Lenovo. Framework actually tests their systems on Ubuntu and Fedora, the latter of which being the basis for Fedora Silverblue, which is used by the Universal Blue (or uBlue) team to make two more community supported distros: Bluefin & Bazzite.
It's worth noting that as M$ pushes its Copilot/Recall bullshit -the Linux "Niche" is going to continue to grow. Especially as a lot of distros are becoming more ready for primetime.
@@Christian-cw6lk Exactly. Eventually, more and more apps will be ported to Linux as the user base continues to grow thanks to Microsoft making Windows unbearable for more and more users.
One big flaw of Framework is the upgrades coming much later than they should which almost destroys the idea of having it in the first place. It should be easier to just get ryzen ai motherboard for one device than to create dozens of new laptops from scratch 😅
In battery life section where you showcased Cinebench results, the AMD model drops its performance more (about 30%) than the Intel Core (25%) Ultra one, 568 (AMD) vs 525 (Intel) on battery power. But when both Framework laptops are plugged in, the AMD model performed much better and the gap widened. About 14-16% faster plugged in and on battery about 8-10% faster. These are only estimates. From my observations, the performance gap narrowed while the Cinebench test was done on battery. My question to you is: What power mode was set to in this test? If it's set to Best Power Efficiency or Balanced mode, the performance drop is more noticeable. It's understandable to limit the CPU's performance in favour of longer battery life (20-40% loss - done my research and AMD processors can drop their performance as much as 40%, depending on power management settings). But the insightful review about Framework laptops being fully upgradeable laptops and their competitiveness with other laptops from other brands. Some work still needs to be done to truly keep up with the rest of the pack in other areas, where there is room for improvement. Some future refinements will make Framework laptops even better. Only time can tell.
5:56 That's ONLY because it is on sale. At full price with 32 GB of RAM (which is soldered), you literally are spending even more money than a Framework Laptop 13 but will get less longevity out of it. I think you need to think abour long-term with laptops, especially given how expensive ALL laptops are nowadays.
That is where a lifestyle choice like this is misleading. It costs £1700 for a chip that will be outdated in a few weeks and looking on Amazon, I can get Core Ultra 7 for £600-700 with OLED and 15-inches 16GB/512GB. So why would I spend £1000 more. I can save that accruing interest and when I need to replace that £600 laptop I can get another in three years for £600. And still have money to do the same in six years time. Remember, to upgrade the motherboard on the Framework can cost £800-1000 and as these are ultrabooks when are you going to need to upgrade RAM or storage? Sorry this is for people that believe that upgrading is the best-all-end-all, whereas I prefer a great laptop (OLED, haptic trackpad and full speakers). I would hate myself for paying £1700 for such weak specs. But as I said this is for a tiny niche hardcore upgrade-driven lifestyle choice user who is willing to pay more for less.
I have a 2020 dell inspire still rocking. I don’t wanna throw the effort of the company but if people want a cheap Linux supported laptop, other companies do it too at a 400-700€ price range
I really don't mind paying the price premium for this laptop. Considering I can just slap in a new mainboard when this one gets outdated and it will cost me half as much as buying a new laptop. The only reason I haven't bought one yet is because my old laptop still works. Once that goes kaput, then I'd buy the AMD version in a heartbeat. Also, we have to remember it's a tiny company compared to the other giant manufacturers.
I was interested that you didn't include the AMD Zenbook 14 on any of the comparisons in this video (maybe because it would make the Framework look even worse value that it already did?!) I bought basic spec one recently (8840/16GB/512GB/60hz OLED) for 999 EUR; to spec an equivalent Framework 13 today (albeit with a 7840) is ~1500 EUR. I love the vision that Framework has, and a Framework was my first thought when my last laptop died unexpectedly... but a 50% premium over an excellent alternative isn't reasonable for many buyers, unless you're one of the minority that is deep into needing Linux compatibility or super-committed to upgradeability.
Also don't forget that the framework laptops upgradability points probably ends with the intel core ultra 100 series. Intel's next chips from lunar lake and amds zen 5 strix point chips all have soldered memory, so there is no point to upgrade anymore.
Actually, CAMM2 could be a thing; I have a feeling Framework could just skip 2024 CPUs and wait for CAMM2 to get both upgradable RAM and LPDDR5X speeds. I mean, that would make sense, given Intel has already confirmed Panther Lake would support more types of RAM than Lunar Lake.
@@cameronbosch1213The problem as far as I have read with CAMM2 is that if you upgrade from 16GB to 32GB you have to buy a 32GB and replace the 16GB. You cannot add another 16GB. So as CAMM2 are 3X more expensive at the moment this will only make Framework laptops even worse value.
@@cameronbosch1213 CAMM2 will never get LPDDR5X speeds or DDR6 speeds for that matter. The reason modern RAMs are so fast is because they are physically closer to the chip and soldering them on the chip is the best way to make sure they are as close as possible to reduce latency. CAMM2 gets closer than normal SODIMM modules but can never be the same as soldered memory. It's just the nature of computation and physics.
@@cameronbosch1213 The Moore's law you have heard of has long been dead. The latest increment in GFLOPS that still keeps Moore's law alive is advancement in other things rather than the transistor in the chip, things like packaging, cache placement, very fast memory, etc. To say memory placement doesn't affect computational output wouldn't be correct at all. A fast CPU needs a fast RAM to feed it data, so yes it is very much relevant.
Most premium laptops are plain better in just about everything. Especially since so many smaller 14 inches come with an OLEDs and GPU's in formfactors that are just better optimized. And I'd rather buy a new one a few years down the road than replace the internals of this one. So yeah... I just don't see the appeal.
I could argue the same about "most premium laptops" with 16 GB of soldered RAM. 16 GB in 3 - 4 years is soon going to feel like 8 GB does now for most moderate to heavy tasks.
Annoyingly Framework might not be releasing a Zen 5 or Lunar lake design since those chips don't officially support upgradable RAM. I really hope AMD changes this soon as this is the main negative about their new Zen 5 laptop processors.
Im confused between buying yoga pro 9i and legion 7i What do you think is better for me I'm an engineering student I have graphic designing and simulation tasks I also want to play games and watch movies and tv series The system should be able to play next gen titles like gta 6 (future proof gaming) Which one should I get. And with what gpu and cpu
Honestly I wish Framework would just bring a haptic touchpad and I think the experience would be significantly better. Also, I think the customizable ports are a cool idea but in reality, I wish they just provided a solid set of ports that were not soldered to the mainboard and could be repaired from the inside. An HDMI, two USB-C thunderbolt/USB4 ports, an SD card reader, a headphone jack, and a USB A port would be the ideal combo for most people and would make it look less janky. You wouldn't lose any repairability either because the ports themselves would connect to the mainboard inside the laptop and wouldn't be soldered down. I think the main thing for me is a haptic touchpad. After using a MacBook for this long, I just can't go back to a diving board trackpad.
My biggest issue is price. When the Framework 3 came out, I got myself a zenbook flip 13 with the 11th gen i7 (same what framework had), for less price. Since then, I sold it, and got myself a Rog Flow x13, and if I would sell it, and buy the newer x13 (used), I would still spend less, than than the framework 13+the upgrade.
Can't wait for Framework to improve! Not a fan of the form, which I suspect is due to its reason for being: function/upgradability. "Frankenstein look" is an accurate description. I'm someone who values form as much as function.
After interviewing Nirav twice and personally buying one myself. I'm pretty certain I know their mission. I think perhaps you just don't like my thoughts on the device. That is perfectly fine, but say it constructively and say what specifically you feel I've missed
@@JustJoshTech In my opinion you're not only paying for your hardware but also to support the right to repair movement. There might be products with similar performance for half the price but that's not what most of the customers are looking for. The video just reminded me a bit of the LTT review of the fairphone where they compared it to a Note 9 which is 5 years older and beat the fairphone in many ways... But I guess customers who consider buying these devices don't care about that. They are looking for sustainable supply chains and not worrying about anything breaking. Another youtuber once said: "I'm kinda wishing something would break so I could replace it" which I think sums it up pretty well. I know, you've talked about that, I just thought that it's the main point, not just a fun fact. But you're right, my comment was not that constructive, I apologize for that. And thanks for answering me anyway :) (got my sub now)
@@fahrradlosto be fair, yeah it is repairable and has great support for original part replacements but the hardware isn’t top of the line compared to other similarly priced devices. Perhaps more emphasis could have been done to that aspect of repairability and longevity since part of the reason one pays the premium is for that unique characteristic but nonetheless in performance you are getting something subpar and i find it valid to remark that to potential buyers
Somehow this brand does little to appeal to me. I still prefer other brands' design. Hated the logo. Boring look. If I want to game or do design work while plugged in, I'll get a desktop and a good monitor. If I want more ports, I buy a hub. Still cheaper than framework options.
The truth is the Thinkpad T4X series of laptops were much more upgradeable than these frameworks. There were literally 12 mother boards available to fit into T40, T41, T42 laptop shells (all identical). The ultrabay could hold a hard disk or a CD or a battery - hot swappable! There were three keyboards and at least five screens and they were easy to change! Framework is devoting too much effort to the usb-c port gimmick, when a 6-port candybar dongle costs $25! They need to offer more than a single GPU which is the 7700S - the least popular GPU right now ... Overall, the company seems to have BAD technical leadership ...
@@rael_gc the webcam and microphone are decent, especially the in-built microphone. I'm not an expert by any stretch, but when I started using the in built microphone on my Framework, people complimented my clear audio in video calls. They have a new webcam and microphone module coming out soon, and it should be basically the best webcam in any laptop sold today, since it has a larger, more sensitive, higher dynamic range sensor, and a newer ISP, than any competing laptop webcam.
Bit of a hatchet job on Framework in my opinion. The person with the Framework, will be able to change the speakers, wifi, screen, etc.. in the future, if that floats their boat when upgrades come along. Not everybody is looking for the absolute best, fastest, longest running,… A good steady Eddie machine that never goes out of date, in my mind trumps all! The muppet who spends a thousand or so on another laptop, better like it, because they’re stuck with it!!
Releasing an undercooked chip so late in its cycle and charging a full price when you can buy an ASUS S15 OLED Core Ultra 7 for £600 is illogical and, frankly, indefensible. If you’re into upgradeability, then, of course, you’ll pay a significant premium. However, the reality is that for 95% of ultrabook consumers, this is overpriced and offers no value, even with the pretence of repairability. Most laptops, if well-maintained, can last ten years. I have several MacBooks in my business that are over eight years old.
@@andyH_England So do I, and what’s annoyed me is that none of them can be upgraded to Windows 11 when I have to. They are old, (Thinkpad T440p) but in mint condition and could last another 10 years, but now I have to bin them rather than upgrade them. On the price point, who’s to say I don’t buy some older back stock from Framework at a better price, and maybe grab bits and pieces off Amazon. And on your argument about getting something late in the cycle, as soon as you buy it, it’s being beaten by the latest releases. One other point, who buys a new model car when it’s first out!? Most are happy to wait a year or two which hopefully reduces initial issues. There’s no right or wrong just a strong argument for both, and going back to my very first point, I thought this was a little agressive on one side, which doesn’t help anyone.
2:36 That's why you shouldn't let women review tech 😂 They just want everything to be done by someone else. They don't care about upgradability. She only talks about the main thing about laptop which is upgradability for only 15 seconds🤣
Windows users 'fresh install the operating system' to fix bugs more often than I drink cups of coffee. It's so sad they've been gaslit into this by Microsoft :
x86 isn't as bad as it seems. Apple just had a lot of money to spend on very talented engineers, while Intel and AMD kind of stagnated alongside one another, so they now have to play catch-up.
@@user-zn1db9fe5w Could you elaborate on how x86 systematically wastes power? I don't see how that is the case. Also, do you have a background in hardware design? If so, feel free to give me a super convoluted answer, I'm into that shit.
@@tedzards509 ARM processors use something called RISC: Reduced Instruction Set Computing. The variety of instructions a RISC processor can execute is much more restricted than a CISC (Complex Instruction Set Computing) processor, but because of this, it's much more efficient.
@@tedzards509 Intel processors were designed back in the day when processors executed one instruction at a time, and when that one was done, they did the next one. Therefore it didn't matter if some instructions took 1 cycle and others took 10. It also didn't matter if an instruction was 1 byte or 14. I think there are over 1500 different x86 instructions. On the other hand every arm instruction is either 4 or 8 bytes and most can be done in 1 cycle. This makes the decoder logic much simpler. And there are much fewer than them. Also makes the pipeline logic simply. All this means less circuits, and less circuits means less power.
Really poor review IMO. I love this channel but the framework isn't about upgradability, it's about being repairable and reducing ewaste with the ability to upgrade as a side benefit. I have the AMD 5 version and performance is amazing.
There is no proof for this assertion that Framework will reduce e-waste. They need to go longer. Maybe, after five years, people will get fed up, dump their Framework, and get something cheaper and more modern? You are making great leaps of faith, and although you sound deep into that lifestyle, many others may change their beliefs by then.
👉 All Our Favorite Laptops: www.justjosh.tech/best-tech/
Three words: Official Linux support. That's what I need! It's not great that most other Linux-first brands aren't competitive, but Framework delivers! (Although I don't see a point of the Intel model over the AMD Ryzen models!)
What is the difference between official Linux support and not? I mean is it any harder to install and use Linux on DELL, Asus, Acer, Lenovo etc?
@@DywanTvit means that the company put effort into making the product work on Linux, ie choosing parts like audio, wifi or fingerprint with open source drivers.
@godoflight558 Heck, even most Tuxedo laptops (which were built in collaboration with some ODMs, or original design manufacturers) don't have working fingerprint sensors under Linux even if they include them.
Framework not only has them, but they work under Linux.
This. Looking at the "Linux" section of several laptops that were tested on this channel will make it very clear why Linux users are flocking to Framework in droves
I see this as a broader Linux issue rather than a Framework-specific problem. Generally, Linux users are often forced to choose between expensive, niche, or outdated hardware to get optimal support. If Linux aims for mainstream adoption, a more pragmatic approach is necessary. Embracing a hybrid model with a combination of open-source software and proprietary drivers/kernel extensions is essential. As a consumer, I'm unwilling to sacrifice hardware performance or compatibility for the sake of strict FOSS adherence.
Framwork's idea is great, but it's ridiculous to start selling a Core Ultra Series 1 laptop about a month before the Core Ultra Series 2 laptop comes out, unless you sell it for a cheap, which is definitely not the case here.
Yeah it seems like they’re just getting cheap deals from intels old left overs.
There might not be a core 200 or zen 5 upgrade. Both of those generations do not support sodimm as of now. So framework might not have them. Unless maybe camm happens
also, isnt 370 hx a perfect chip for these? looking at the px13... they should go amd
@@harigovindsrfortechnology im pretty sure zen 5 mobile does support ddr5. it states so on AMD's website
Zen 5 does support SODIMM.
I feel like you're missing the point if you spend half the review talking about how things like the case and the keyboard don't seem to have changed much since "previous generations" of the framework, because... it's literally the same case and keyboard. That's kind of the whole idea.
It's also funny how when qualcomm puts out a processor that has inferior performance but lower power draw, everybody says it's exciting and innovative, but when intel puts out a processor with the same performance as last year but drawing half the wattage, it's a disappointment. (I mean, you totally should be disappointed in Intel's behavior these last couple of years, but this isn't the reason why.)
That said, it's pretty late in the life cycle of the processor to be putting out this mainboard, and there aren't a lot of areas where it would be better than the AMD version that's been out for months.
The whole idea of the laptop is that the parts are replaceable with better ones, not that the keyboard and trackpad should remain the exact same across multiple generations. The keyboard itself is completely fine and it's something they don't need to replace but the trackpad should have gotten a revision to make it haptic at least.
@@nitrobear upgrading every generation is exactly the kind of consumerism not covered by the ideals behind framework.
@@nitrobear you can't expect the same attention to details from a small company that is still in the development stage and has way more important to worry about, give it some time and I'm sure they'll come out with a solution just gotta be patient.
@raute2687 Actually, upgrading is part of the formula. That's why the Cooler Master case was created. Framework is about keeping electrics out of landfills, having longer usable life. You are meant to upgrade as you see fit.
@@nitrobearwhile I agree that a trackpad upgrade would be nice, constantly refreshing things isnt really the point here. this video spent a weird amount of time emphasizing that the standardization hasnt become unstandard lol
Looking into it, and I was so disapointed with how expensive it is to upgrade the laptop. A new motherboard/cpu + new screen comes out to over 1000$ dollars. Might as well buy a new laptop every couple of years then just upgrading this one.
Edit: just wanted to say that I do love framework's overall mission and goals. I am rooting for them. I just hope one day it is feasible to buy for me (a poor person)!
This is something I have seen very few people mention, this is specially true for the 16 inch model, it is expensive.
Used ThinkPad. 5x cheaper than Framework 13 and really upgradeable. In particular, if you want a good robust and repairable laptop, you can look for the ThinkPad T480.
If you do not need the rigidity of ThinkPad and only need performance and upgradability, then look for Dell Latitude 5591 and Precision 3530. I switched to the Precision 3530 from the T480 because of the equally good upgradability, and because it was being sold off at my company for cheap. I would wager that it's even more repairable for the average consumer than the T480, which may sound blasphemous, but it's simply due to there being both a DC jack and a Thunderbolt port for 65W charging, and the DC jack is easily replaceable as it is connected with a cable instead of being soldered, like on the T480 with its USB-C ports, a single point of failure.
The Dell Precision 3530 is basically a cheaper and lower-end ThinkPad P52 alternative, with a 6-core processor and serviceable Quadro P600 graphics. The dGPU is not made for gaming, as it only uses 20W, but it has NVENC and 4GB of VRAM, which is great for a cheap workstation such as this. It smokes the ThinkPad T580. One gripe is with Dell enforcing planned obsolescence by forcing a BIOS update which disables undervolting and thus takes away 15% performance, makes the CPU hot and the laptop loud. If you find a Precision 3530 or a Latitude 5591 with a BIOS version 1.10 or lower, it's worth paying $30-40 extra for, and you must disable UEFI Capsule Firmware updates, as well as automatic Windows driver updates. Never update it to version 1.11 or higher. Same goes for other undervoltable Dell laptops.
well, motherboard + cpu and screen are literally the most expensive parts of a laptop, like 80% of the price, of course it's a 1000$
@@viv12348Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose though? Might as well buy a new laptop and get a new chassis. So the only thing they got going for them is upgradability but the whole "more expensive upfront but pays off in the long run" falls flat on its face.
Upgradable is just a marketing gimmick. Not even desktop computers are upgradable for practical purposes. After several years you want to upgrade your desktop? Well the new CPU won’t fit your motherboard. Not so bad I’ll just get a motherboard. Oh no I need new RAM too? Well I might want to upgrade my GPU if I’m gaming. At this point the only components left are the case, PSU and SSD. No not the PSU because it needs upgrading for the new GPU.
3:23 As somebody who uses the right control key frequently, thank you Framework for not following trends and also including Linux options for their laptop keyboards (keyboards with a Super key instead of a Windows key)!
And also keeping the left control all the way to the left and not putting the function key there. That gets me quite often in other laptops 😖
This is a laptop i wish was competitive. I dont like the idea of buying inferior products for years on end for the sake of principles, especially when you are strapped for cash
@@davitdavid7165 For Linux first options, it actually is.
It if was gauged as a laptop, it really does suck in many areas. Price, expensive. Performance, behind. Battery life, not there. Touch screen, nope. Speakers...ho-hum. OLED, nope.
I feel like people are getting too caught up in consumerism and having the fanciest nicest tech every year. I got a first gen framework for college, and it still does just as good a job with that as it did originally (mid tier a little over 1k when i bought it). Yeah, it'll never have the absolute most power but are you trying to play AAA titles on your 13 inch? idk. even my 11th gen intel chip can do light gaming which is all I do anyway
One thing that I feel is not expanded enough (and I'd also say it's the #1 feature, before the upgradeability) is the repairability.
With this laptop, barring some really unfortunate accidents, you're basically guaranteed you can use the laptop for 10 years! Including if Framework goes bankrupt tomorrow. I don't think any other laptop, except the old Thinkpads, could give you this guarantee, even if some models could easily last 10 years.
Also, in those 10 years (which don't have to be used by you, you can sell it after 5 years, or parts of it) you do have the easiest and cheapest repairs.
Another thing, on the upgradeability - with more and more models for each component, you can really build the laptop you want, in quite some detail. If you find a keyboard you like, you can keep using it, even if you change the whole rest of the laptop internals (basically as if you change the laptop entirely). Same with the screen, if you happen to find one that you really like, you can keep using it. For example, you might want to have a highend CPU, but you actually prefer the lower quality display, with the lower pixel count, because you actually don't need a higher resolution or framerate, but you do need the extra battery life. On basically all other laptops, if you have a premium CPU, you'd also have a premium screen - which makes sense, but in the rare ocasions when that would be detrimental, you have no options. Framework gives you options. Many more options.
There's also the "ok, last motherboard + CPU + RAM had their course, now's time for an upgrade" - besides selling them, you can also very easily convert them into a mini pc for a Home server.
Lastly, some people might simply want Framework for the clearly better environmental impact. Like I said in the begging - unlike the most laptop space, these laptops are made to have a very long life, which means less thrown junk per unit of time. Frankly, unless local AI actually becomes REALLY useful for most people, then just like an M1 Air is still very good today, so would a Framework or any laptop with a modern Intel or AMD CPU should be very good for normal and casual use for a long time. More than 10 years, I'd say. So laptops that have a lifespan of 10+ years should become the norm.
The #1 selling point for me with Framework is Linux support. #2 selling point is repairability and upgradeability - I'm not a fan of System76's Sager/Clevo rebadged hardware nor do I want to be messing around trying to hack Linux to run decently on . I'll be buying when Ryzen 300 updates are available - Probably FW16 if the spacer issues are addressed, otherwise FW13. Not interested in Intel until they have something meaningful to offer and mobile CPUs are definitively (and independent of Intel's penchant for lying) found to not be defective as are their desktop processors.
The spacer issues have been addressed on shipping units; I can verify because I have one.
And I agree, System76 actually has worse build quality than Framework and is similarly priced with worse screens.
@@cameronbosch1213 The keyboard deck flex of initial reviews did get addressed. The spacer gaps are still hit and miss - Take a look at the Framework subreddit for recent photos. Some people have better luck than others. I suspect the 'real' fix is going to be along the lines of eliminating spacers for those of us who only want a centered keyboard/trackpad.
are the ryzen chips going to work with framework? i thought they need soldered ram
@@true7563 That's why I think we won't see any new CPUs from Framework this year until CAMM2 becomes more popular.
@@true7563 Read the AMD specs pages. They support DDR5 or LPDDR5X. LPCAMM2 is LPDDR5X soldered to a carrier module rather than directly onto the motherboard. Framework will have no issue adopting Ryzen 300 while also allowing for user upgradeable memory. Intel's Lunar Lake on the other hand is an SoC - Almost the entire system (including RAM) is bundled onto the processor package (so zero upgradeability). Intel Arrow Lake, the actual upgrade from Framework's corrent H series Core Ultra models, will start shipping from Intel at end of 2024/early 2025 and go back to offering non-SoC SKUs. Everybody paranoid that all RAM will be soldered in the future should take a deep breath and relax... That may be the future of some laptop models but soldered memory will not become an actual requirement anytime soon.
I want companies like framework to succeed. I hope they grow a lot and they manage to bring down prices. Also hope for a Copprlink port, the new upcoming standard for egpus.
I thought OcuLink is the new standard?
@@Sithhy Oculink has been around for a while. Copprlink is what was in the works for a while and got finalized on May 1, 2024. It is for PCI 5.0 and beyond.
Given that the 7840u model already exists, this model seems pretty unnecessary you're basically getting slightly less performance while having slightly more battery life (which was surprising to see tbh).
To be fair, Intel Lunar Lake seems to not have any upgradeable RAM options and is limited to 32 GB at the top end, so Framework probably will not offer that generation.
AMD Hawk Point was barely any different, so Framework already confirmed that they won't offer it.
And AMD Ryzen "A.I." 300 CPUs also don't seem to have upgradable RAM at the moment, so I would be shocked if we see any new Framework CPU options this year, given there literally isn't any option for them. Well, at least until CAMM2 is released.
@@cameronbosch1213Yes, it is interesting how Framework will navigate these roadblocks. I assume they have a plan but to date I have not seen any leaks. I am not an upgradeable devotee but understand there are people that live by that mantra. I am unwilling to pay a premium (tax) for that privilege, though I am willing to pay the Apple Tax for the quality and top-notch features. So each to their own…
@@cameronbosch1213what do you mean when you say that they don’t have upgradable ram? The slots can only be soldered onto the board?
@@cameronbosch1213 yeah I think they just want to have the latest intel generation
I like this channel, but the battery life reports are frustrating - surely every viewer wants to know *how many hours a laptop runs for* on a given test, not what the percentage remaining is after a particular amount of time. Why make the viewer pause the video and get their calculator out, rather than just tell them? It's very strange.
Framework's product methodology is really refreshing to see in the industry but they need to work on their CPU availability timelines and the pricing. Paying the amount they charge even for pre-built devices currently is pretty absurd when it rivals similarly spec'd flagships by slapping on accidental damage protection or an extended warranty
I wish there were data comparing models beyond the review units. I can't find comparaison between the 7640U and 7840U anywere, and same goes for the new Intel Core Ultra. The only data is about the most powerful models, which is kind of a shame as it's doesn't show the full picture and also kind of changes the value argument as those are the most expensive.
I feel like you guys are missing the point on framework. I want to have just one laptop for ideally a decade or two. I don’t want to get a new laptop every 3-5 years and create more waste. Also I feel the price is high due to their manufacturing being much smaller in scale in comparison to say, Asus or others. But it’s also understandable the price is high for most consumers so other brands would be a better choice.
Yea, I too wish they were cheaper, but they are about as cheap as they can be given the industry. Also, I see you didn't talk about the new webcam. Did it not ship with the new webcam?
For the price, i dont see the value. Especially now with Zen 5 and Arm chips being available
the new gen for framework will be a challenge for sure, zen 5 does not support soddim memory and it is rumored that it will be the same for the new lunar lake chips from intel. we'll just have to see how framework adapts to this market trend
Zen 5 supports sodimm
@@bennettderrico5845 Not on the ultrabook AMD5 chips. They are soldered on the motherboard to save costs and get faster speeds with lower latency, mainly for AI use. Framework sells 95% ultrabooks.
@bennettderrico5845 Given it's just Asus who are using Zen 5 at the moment, I wouldn't be surprised if AMD releases options with both CAMM2 and SO-DIMM.
I truly appreciate the work you're doing for laptop buyers, and I wish you would create similar in-depth, unbiased videos for other tech products, like smartphones. I understand that testing and reviewing laptops requires a significant amount of time and effort, but it would be fantastic to see you expand your coverage to more products while maintaining the high standards and quality in your testing and video production.
Can you guys do a review of Thinkpads please?
repairability? best feature by far IMO.
Did it even get mentioned? if so not much.
Im sick and tired of having to get parts from some random vendor on the internet and wondering if they are lying about the battery a genuine part. My last battery was almost certanly not.
They are also really easy to replace, my dad needed a keyboard, his laptop had plastic studs melted in place ala hot rivets, I had to break them out then glue the new keyboard back in.
I value the confidence of being backed by a manufacturer that keeps parts around and allows the customers to buy them directly. Thats why I also try to stick with Bosch and Dewalt power tools.
My next laptop will be a framework purely for the Linux support and upgradability (unless something seriously changes)
I'm waiting for mine for that exact reason. One to two weeks from shipping.
I know this is about the Core Ultra, but as you tested the screen it would have been nice if you would have tested the new camera module as well.
5:44 Josh, I think you need to realize that Framework sells older models with slightly older yet still capable for their age CPUs at a discount. That pretty much removes that point of contention. And not to mention, the new screen and other upgrades can be added on post purchase, unlike the other competitors, where a removable SSD is basically all that you get. And those don't get great Linux support.
Framework will probably keep its value in the second-hand market much better than other laptops because one broken critical part won't make the entire thing e-waste.
Why are you posting so many comments? I think you can put this all together one comment no problem. To me you are just spamming at this point, I have seen like four of your comments already and one isn't even constructive criticism, is just you saying you didn't like the video.
@@josegabrielcampos1383 I'm actually not spamming. I made longer comments before and RUclips hides them.
@@cameronbosch1213 Sorry if I am being too blunt, but making 7 comments in one single video, one of them is just saying you don't like the video and one comment accusing him of shilling out for big tech, that sounds like spamming. And I don't really have a reason to believe RUclips would hide your comment for being too big.
@@josegabrielcampos1383 They have done it, not sure if RUclips was doing it intentionally or not. I know Josh wouldn't.
The amount of noise framework made about SD card slot support lol sheesh
@doomtomb3 Almost every competitor doesn't have a full-sized SD card slot and most don't even have microSD card slots.
Early indications are that small companies and developers are the target market for frameworks to developed its products.
The good news is that you can upgrade at the pace of future development. We agree that this market segment do require productive 16 inch laptops. Developing a smaller 13 inch was a distraction with its own brand and cost disadvantage, which is adequately served by the competition in other markets.
Maybe you should compare it with star labs range of laptops.
2:50 Personally, I'll take boring over what Dell did to the 2024 XPS laptops! Or those flashy gaming laptops!
I’ll wait for the new Ryzen AI chips.
You'll probably be waiting until at least 2025 or when CAMM2 is out.
@@cameronbosch1213 they are already out, Asus has like 10 laptops with Ryzen AI.
@@McMaxW right now the RAM has to be soldered on, that's probably not a good fit for the framework customer base.
Has it been announced camm2 is coming? I didn't see anything about that. Probably a fair guess even if it wasn't announced.
Sure, give your money to Intel, as they are known for treating their customers well...
Josh, you do great and thorough reviews and I’m sure your mother is very proud. Want to make her even more proud? How about popping a live Linux stick into every computer you review and give us the Lenox friendly results . There are so many attractive Asus units out there and I really want a sexy unit that will run Linux and be a bit more cutting edge than Framework. How about it?
what a weird comment.
finally framework can be more efficient with core ultra much better than the older intel models great job framework!
Sadly, at that price the laptop market has moved on to more powerful efficient chips, the M4, AMD5 and upcoming Intel (September release). So, the Core Ultra Series 1 short life was because it was a filler cycle because of the delay in the better chipset. I would never recommend anyone buying a Core Ultra Series 1.
yeah bad timing tbh
@andyH_England Sure, it's bad timing, but I don't think Framework will release anything more this year, unless AMD can get their act together and release a more powerful new Radeon 7000S GPU or if CAMM2 becomes mainstream.
Great review Josh!
I've really come to appreciate the new presenter too
I feel framework buyers understand this will not be as tuned as a lump of glue with parts embedded in it, wont be as optimal but id give up 5-10% performance for the upgradability, and OFFICIAL LINUX SUPPORT. Personally wont notice the lower performance for what I do, but I will notice the money if i have to replace a wifi card or just want to buy some ram to make it last longer.
As a Framework fanboy, I think these criticisms are not only VALID, but also absolutely CRUCIAL to be take into account if FW wants to stay viable in the near future. Must must must
Maybe create an updated clamshell/chassis, that will have better cooling, allowing newer chips to use and dissipate more power?
Continuing this trend of leaving performance on the table because u cant dissipate power, is dangerous.
I'm sure they are working on different things, but development takes time. Just think about how much development time there was before being able to release the first Framework 13.
Some of the plots are flashed up too fast and the charger size at 3:11 in particular is way too fast! Great video as always otherwise.
1:33 how is 4060 performing worse than 4050 in ProArt PX 13.
Massive difference in power draw. Low wattage 4060 vs high wattage 4050
@@JustJoshTech RIP to all the dudes who got scammed with the low wattage 4060 and thanks for Justjosh Team who show us such things :D
@@4n0nmann5 It honestly depends. There will be some cases where a low wattage 4060 will perform better than a high wattage 4050 because it has 8 GB VRAM instead of 6 GB. You can't just look at one chart.
At this rate I don't see them leaving the Linux niche. Which it's not necessarily such a bad thing, but surely they were meant to be more ambitious than that.
@robhunt8378 Given Microsoft has been pushing users off of Windows like crazy since 2021 (and even as far back as 2012), I can say Framework is truly a great hardware company because of that. Most brands you'll be lucky if there are third-party tools to control the system on Linux, like with Asus or Lenovo. Framework actually tests their systems on Ubuntu and Fedora, the latter of which being the basis for Fedora Silverblue, which is used by the Universal Blue (or uBlue) team to make two more community supported distros: Bluefin & Bazzite.
"at this rate" it's been just 4 years since the company launched
It's worth noting that as M$ pushes its Copilot/Recall bullshit -the Linux "Niche" is going to continue to grow. Especially as a lot of distros are becoming more ready for primetime.
@@Christian-cw6lk Exactly. Eventually, more and more apps will be ported to Linux as the user base continues to grow thanks to Microsoft making Windows unbearable for more and more users.
One big flaw of Framework is the upgrades coming much later than they should which almost destroys the idea of having it in the first place. It should be easier to just get ryzen ai motherboard for one device than to create dozens of new laptops from scratch 😅
In battery life section where you showcased Cinebench results, the AMD model drops its performance more (about 30%) than the Intel Core (25%) Ultra one, 568 (AMD) vs 525 (Intel) on battery power.
But when both Framework laptops are plugged in, the AMD model performed much better and the gap widened. About 14-16% faster plugged in and on battery about 8-10% faster. These are only estimates.
From my observations, the performance gap narrowed while the Cinebench test was done on battery.
My question to you is: What power mode was set to in this test?
If it's set to Best Power Efficiency or Balanced mode, the performance drop is more noticeable. It's understandable to limit the CPU's performance in favour of longer battery life (20-40% loss - done my research and AMD processors can drop their performance as much as 40%, depending on power management settings).
But the insightful review about Framework laptops being fully upgradeable laptops and their competitiveness with other laptops from other brands. Some work still needs to be done to truly keep up with the rest of the pack in other areas, where there is room for improvement. Some future refinements will make Framework laptops even better. Only time can tell.
Competitive because it's still good while allowing you to upgrade every single component with time
5:56 That's ONLY because it is on sale. At full price with 32 GB of RAM (which is soldered), you literally are spending even more money than a Framework Laptop 13 but will get less longevity out of it.
I think you need to think abour long-term with laptops, especially given how expensive ALL laptops are nowadays.
That is where a lifestyle choice like this is misleading. It costs £1700 for a chip that will be outdated in a few weeks and looking on Amazon, I can get Core Ultra 7 for £600-700 with OLED and 15-inches 16GB/512GB. So why would I spend £1000 more. I can save that accruing interest and when I need to replace that £600 laptop I can get another in three years for £600. And still have money to do the same in six years time. Remember, to upgrade the motherboard on the Framework can cost £800-1000 and as these are ultrabooks when are you going to need to upgrade RAM or storage? Sorry this is for people that believe that upgrading is the best-all-end-all, whereas I prefer a great laptop (OLED, haptic trackpad and full speakers). I would hate myself for paying £1700 for such weak specs. But as I said this is for a tiny niche hardcore upgrade-driven lifestyle choice user who is willing to pay more for less.
I love my AMD Framework, and I'm about to slap the new screen in it. I run Arch btw. ;) lol
It is great for Linux, and that probably saves it.
I have a 2020 dell inspire still rocking. I don’t wanna throw the effort of the company but if people want a cheap Linux supported laptop, other companies do it too at a 400-700€ price range
I really don't mind paying the price premium for this laptop. Considering I can just slap in a new mainboard when this one gets outdated and it will cost me half as much as buying a new laptop. The only reason I haven't bought one yet is because my old laptop still works. Once that goes kaput, then I'd buy the AMD version in a heartbeat.
Also, we have to remember it's a tiny company compared to the other giant manufacturers.
The price argument goes away quite fast with first upgrade. Especially when the old motherboard can be easily repurposed.
I was interested that you didn't include the AMD Zenbook 14 on any of the comparisons in this video (maybe because it would make the Framework look even worse value that it already did?!)
I bought basic spec one recently (8840/16GB/512GB/60hz OLED) for 999 EUR; to spec an equivalent Framework 13 today (albeit with a 7840) is ~1500 EUR. I love the vision that Framework has, and a Framework was my first thought when my last laptop died unexpectedly... but a 50% premium over an excellent alternative isn't reasonable for many buyers, unless you're one of the minority that is deep into needing Linux compatibility or super-committed to upgradeability.
Also don't forget that the framework laptops upgradability points probably ends with the intel core ultra 100 series. Intel's next chips from lunar lake and amds zen 5 strix point chips all have soldered memory, so there is no point to upgrade anymore.
Actually, CAMM2 could be a thing; I have a feeling Framework could just skip 2024 CPUs and wait for CAMM2 to get both upgradable RAM and LPDDR5X speeds.
I mean, that would make sense, given Intel has already confirmed Panther Lake would support more types of RAM than Lunar Lake.
@@cameronbosch1213The problem as far as I have read with CAMM2 is that if you upgrade from 16GB to 32GB you have to buy a 32GB and replace the 16GB. You cannot add another 16GB. So as CAMM2 are 3X more expensive at the moment this will only make Framework laptops even worse value.
@@cameronbosch1213 CAMM2 will never get LPDDR5X speeds or DDR6 speeds for that matter. The reason modern RAMs are so fast is because they are physically closer to the chip and soldering them on the chip is the best way to make sure they are as close as possible to reduce latency. CAMM2 gets closer than normal SODIMM modules but can never be the same as soldered memory. It's just the nature of computation and physics.
@@swarnavasamanta2628 There's a point where you don't need memory that much faster though.
@@cameronbosch1213 The Moore's law you have heard of has long been dead. The latest increment in GFLOPS that still keeps Moore's law alive is advancement in other things rather than the transistor in the chip, things like packaging, cache placement, very fast memory, etc. To say memory placement doesn't affect computational output wouldn't be correct at all. A fast CPU needs a fast RAM to feed it data, so yes it is very much relevant.
i just wish they sold the chassis on its own so i could buy a used motherboard from ebay.
Why no mention on what kind of panel the display upgrade is and how it fairs to other computers?
I said at the beginning that this was a different kind of review. I wanted this yo be about my personal experience. Hope that makes sense
How will framework ever compete? What is the point of having a crap laptop that can be updated over time to keep it constantly crap?
This is like a picky child eating their favorite food that was cooked by the wrong person.
Did the lady host voice the "Ursa" Google Gemini voice? Very similar sounding
1748 USD for such a notebook Damn. I mean wasn't the Zenbook 16S OLED with the new 370HX or 365HX and 24GB LPDDR5 Released for that price?
I don’t see them as competitive on pricing. Yes, the upgrades and what-not are novel, but that’s about it.
still waiting for them to come in black
Most premium laptops are plain better in just about everything. Especially since so many smaller 14 inches come with an OLEDs and GPU's in formfactors that are just better optimized. And I'd rather buy a new one a few years down the road than replace the internals of this one. So yeah... I just don't see the appeal.
I could argue the same about "most premium laptops" with 16 GB of soldered RAM. 16 GB in 3 - 4 years is soon going to feel like 8 GB does now for most moderate to heavy tasks.
@@cameronbosch1213 That's a given.
Annoyingly Framework might not be releasing a Zen 5 or Lunar lake design since those chips don't officially support upgradable RAM. I really hope AMD changes this soon as this is the main negative about their new Zen 5 laptop processors.
The snapdragon X elite would perfectly fit into it😉But the intel is a crap.
Im confused between buying yoga pro 9i and legion 7i
What do you think is better for me
I'm an engineering student I have graphic designing and simulation tasks
I also want to play games and watch movies and tv series
The system should be able to play next gen titles like gta 6 (future proof gaming)
Which one should I get. And with what gpu and cpu
I hope the had 3 port on both of one side
Port very innovative,but you only can have 4 and one used for charging
I ordered one at end of may and waiting for it send out update email
Are you still a full time software engineer?
Gimme that amd hx 370 baby
When will the review of asus zenbook s 16 come out ?
SKIP
One fan is never enough these days
still not ships to Hungary, so i've went for the latest tuxedo InfinityBook Pro 14
Can you test the matebook 14 2024?
Honestly I wish Framework would just bring a haptic touchpad and I think the experience would be significantly better. Also, I think the customizable ports are a cool idea but in reality, I wish they just provided a solid set of ports that were not soldered to the mainboard and could be repaired from the inside. An HDMI, two USB-C thunderbolt/USB4 ports, an SD card reader, a headphone jack, and a USB A port would be the ideal combo for most people and would make it look less janky. You wouldn't lose any repairability either because the ports themselves would connect to the mainboard inside the laptop and wouldn't be soldered down.
I think the main thing for me is a haptic touchpad. After using a MacBook for this long, I just can't go back to a diving board trackpad.
Those screen corners are...not good looking
My biggest issue is price. When the Framework 3 came out, I got myself a zenbook flip 13 with the 11th gen i7 (same what framework had), for less price. Since then, I sold it, and got myself a Rog Flow x13, and if I would sell it, and buy the newer x13 (used), I would still spend less, than than the framework 13+the upgrade.
Why can't they partner with these chip makers and grt these chips ahead of time, not a few months before they're launching a new chip
What about laptop WAR 2024.
Vs other youtubers?
@@JustJoshTech yes or vs other channel members.
I wouldn't touch an Intel device with a 10 foot barking pole until the whole microcode/architecture problem is solved completely.
is it still not possible to invest in framework?
Not yet, they are working on that
Can't wait for Framework to improve! Not a fan of the form, which I suspect is due to its reason for being: function/upgradability. "Frankenstein look" is an accurate description. I'm someone who values form as much as function.
Framework got tons of issues and should reduce the price to justify it. The paid promotions by youtubers wont help.
expecting such a small company at such an early stage to compete with massive corporations that have been around for decades is braindead
Just another big tech reviewer that completely misses the point of what frameworks mission is...
After interviewing Nirav twice and personally buying one myself. I'm pretty certain I know their mission. I think perhaps you just don't like my thoughts on the device. That is perfectly fine, but say it constructively and say what specifically you feel I've missed
@@JustJoshTech In my opinion you're not only paying for your hardware but also to support the right to repair movement. There might be products with similar performance for half the price but that's not what most of the customers are looking for.
The video just reminded me a bit of the LTT review of the fairphone where they compared it to a Note 9 which is 5 years older and beat the fairphone in many ways...
But I guess customers who consider buying these devices don't care about that. They are looking for sustainable supply chains and not worrying about anything breaking. Another youtuber once said: "I'm kinda wishing something would break so I could replace it" which I think sums it up pretty well.
I know, you've talked about that, I just thought that it's the main point, not just a fun fact.
But you're right, my comment was not that constructive, I apologize for that. And thanks for answering me anyway :)
(got my sub now)
@@fahrradlosto be fair, yeah it is repairable and has great support for original part replacements but the hardware isn’t top of the line compared to other similarly priced devices. Perhaps more emphasis could have been done to that aspect of repairability and longevity since part of the reason one pays the premium is for that unique characteristic but nonetheless in performance you are getting something subpar and i find it valid to remark that to potential buyers
Unless you're getting an amazing deal, I wouldn't bother with Intel based laptops. AMD is destroying them.
Somehow this brand does little to appeal to me. I still prefer other brands' design.
Hated the logo. Boring look.
If I want to game or do design work while plugged in, I'll get a desktop and a good monitor.
If I want more ports, I buy a hub. Still cheaper than framework options.
is it only me.. but you two talk almost the same tone... in the video.. haha
The truth is the Thinkpad T4X series of laptops were much more upgradeable than these frameworks. There were literally 12 mother boards available to fit into T40, T41, T42 laptop shells (all identical). The ultrabay could hold a hard disk or a CD or a battery - hot swappable! There were three keyboards and at least five screens and they were easy to change! Framework is devoting too much effort to the usb-c port gimmick, when a 6-port candybar dongle costs $25! They need to offer more than a single GPU which is the 7700S - the least popular GPU right now ... Overall, the company seems to have BAD technical leadership ...
If only the screen design was not so dated...i cannot love it as it looks ugly and old
Needs more usb
Their mistake was putting Intel Inside. .. again ...
No webcam and mic test?
@@rael_gc the webcam and microphone are decent, especially the in-built microphone. I'm not an expert by any stretch, but when I started using the in built microphone on my Framework, people complimented my clear audio in video calls.
They have a new webcam and microphone module coming out soon, and it should be basically the best webcam in any laptop sold today, since it has a larger, more sensitive, higher dynamic range sensor, and a newer ISP, than any competing laptop webcam.
Today on 15th August, Ports on thumbnail looks like Indian Flag.
Good. Alot of our team is in Bangalore and Delhi
Bit of a hatchet job on Framework in my opinion. The person with the Framework, will be able to change the speakers, wifi, screen, etc.. in the future, if that floats their boat when upgrades come along. Not everybody is looking for the absolute best, fastest, longest running,… A good steady Eddie machine that never goes out of date, in my mind trumps all! The muppet who spends a thousand or so on another laptop, better like it, because they’re stuck with it!!
Releasing an undercooked chip so late in its cycle and charging a full price when you can buy an ASUS S15 OLED Core Ultra 7 for £600 is illogical and, frankly, indefensible. If you’re into upgradeability, then, of course, you’ll pay a significant premium. However, the reality is that for 95% of ultrabook consumers, this is overpriced and offers no value, even with the pretence of repairability. Most laptops, if well-maintained, can last ten years. I have several MacBooks in my business that are over eight years old.
@@andyH_England So do I, and what’s annoyed me is that none of them can be upgraded to Windows 11 when I have to. They are old, (Thinkpad T440p) but in mint condition and could last another 10 years, but now I have to bin them rather than upgrade them. On the price point, who’s to say I don’t buy some older back stock from Framework at a better price, and maybe grab bits and pieces off Amazon. And on your argument about getting something late in the cycle, as soon as you buy it, it’s being beaten by the latest releases. One other point, who buys a new model car when it’s first out!? Most are happy to wait a year or two which hopefully reduces initial issues. There’s no right or wrong just a strong argument for both, and going back to my very first point, I thought this was a little agressive on one side, which doesn’t help anyone.
not buying a laptop with an intel cpu
Ew Intel, when will Framework get the latest AMD chips put in?
Upgradeability is overrated when price is high and not better than others overall experience. I don’t upgrade or need to change ports so often.
2:36 That's why you shouldn't let women review tech 😂 They just want everything to be done by someone else. They don't care about upgradability. She only talks about the main thing about laptop which is upgradability for only 15 seconds🤣
Never been this early!
Didn't know Linus invested into overpriced trash. :) Just go for the previews AMD version, is better.
Windows users 'fresh install the operating system' to fix bugs more often than I drink cups of coffee. It's so sad they've been gaslit into this by Microsoft :
Hence why I don't use Windows or macOS.
You are a psyop funded by Peter Thiel.
we need leave x86 as fast as possible
x86 isn't as bad as it seems. Apple just had a lot of money to spend on very talented engineers, while Intel and AMD kind of stagnated alongside one another, so they now have to play catch-up.
@@tedzards509 yes it is bad cus x86 loose for free so much power compared to arm
@@user-zn1db9fe5w Could you elaborate on how x86 systematically wastes power? I don't see how that is the case.
Also, do you have a background in hardware design? If so, feel free to give me a super convoluted answer, I'm into that shit.
@@tedzards509 ARM processors use something called RISC: Reduced Instruction Set Computing. The variety of instructions a RISC processor can execute is much more restricted than a CISC (Complex Instruction Set Computing) processor, but because of this, it's much more efficient.
@@tedzards509
Intel processors were designed back in the day when processors executed one instruction at a time, and when that one was done, they did the next one. Therefore it didn't matter if some instructions took 1 cycle and others took 10. It also didn't matter if an instruction was 1 byte or 14. I think there are over 1500 different x86 instructions.
On the other hand every arm instruction is either 4 or 8 bytes and most can be done in 1 cycle. This makes the decoder logic much simpler. And there are much fewer than them. Also makes the pipeline logic simply.
All this means less circuits, and less circuits means less power.
😂😂😂
4:03
The Framework brand is DoA, niche market. Very likely to disappear in a few years
Up
Really poor review IMO. I love this channel but the framework isn't about upgradability, it's about being repairable and reducing ewaste with the ability to upgrade as a side benefit. I have the AMD 5 version and performance is amazing.
There is no proof for this assertion that Framework will reduce e-waste. They need to go longer. Maybe, after five years, people will get fed up, dump their Framework, and get something cheaper and more modern? You are making great leaps of faith, and although you sound deep into that lifestyle, many others may change their beliefs by then.