Hope 2020 part 2 is treating everyone well. Again, thanks to Ridge Wallet for the support while letting me make the content I want. If you want 10% off a wallet, go to ridge.com/COREAGAMING.
I think the issue with the comment above is this. You aren't doing hand gymnastics for basic movement. You are doing hand gymnastics for *advanced* movement. The moment it becomes considered tech or an exploit its no longer basic.
@@Patchnose but at 2:22 the guy on the forum said the same thing about KBD. He was referring to the KBD when he said “everyone has to do hand gymnastics to do basic movement.” Even though it’s not basic movement. I said the same abt melee You’re technically right because it’s not basic movement but I didn’t think the comment would be funny if I had a caviat about how it’s not technically basic movement, it would have seemed too wordy
@@walkeranderson730 Yeah my comment was mostly criticizing that comment. The korean backdash is not basic movement. Its an advanced technique. Same for wavedashing in melee. Its no longer basic if its tech. I think its kind of goofy to think just because a technique is necessary to be relevant at a high level means its basic. Edit: Just wanted to make sure you knew I wasn't criticizing you.
It's a pretty interesting historical analogy to have the KBD and dribbling, tho there's a lot more that could be drawn out of the implication, for one whether "Traveling" would be considered "casualized" version of dribbling, which is very much frowned upon and so on. It's also worth differentiating that "who" is making the rules of dribbling (a big, institutional governing body), while, apparently, "outsiders' of the fgc have been very much pushing for lowering the technical skill ceiling/floor, across the board, and whether that's worth commenting on in community's reaction. But I do agree most with your common theme/sentiment in most of your vids, that fighting games should be some sort of "metropolitan" amassment of variety, that, to quote another FGC youtuber Leon Massey, "Fighting Games are for Everyone™, but not EVERY game needs to be for EVERY one". While the concept of a fighting game is stereotypically competitive and requiring technical dexterity to learn, I do thing, being "unique perhaps at the cost of mainstream acceptability, or even accessability" is the concept Fighting Game has been tussling with for a long time that I hope actually becomes generally acceptable, at least in the way weird indie games like indie RPGmaker horror games, Eurojank Slavic Suffering Walking Sims, Rogue-lites so detached from the original Rogue and other niche genres with acceptance within the general gaming space, if not culture as a whole.
I agree that fighting games shouldn't necessarily be for everyone. However, I also think we should make moves and movement as intuitive and enjoyable to do as possibly can be while upholding the competitive and difficult integrety of the game. And personally, I feel wavedashing and to a degree, KBD shows a direction that the players want the game to move in, but they're also weighed down by being wonky and quirky instead of intuitive purely by being unintended input "exploits" rather than well implemented into the game proper in terms of input. If wavedashing and KBD is better than the current movement option, then imo the current ones should be replaced for those but the inputs should be as intuitive and fitting as the original limited options. Why? Because wavedashing and KBD essentially replaces the former options entirely, because these options are core universal aspects to movement and because you shouldn't be forced to resign to a wonky design quirk to be able to compete, even if some might've come to enjoy it in a niche way or grow the muscle memory for it. What the adoption of KBD tells us is that it's a strong option and possibly also that people prefer fast unlimited backdash to the limited one. So the clear option here is to make that the default option, but imo not to keep it behind complex inputs, especially considering not everyone uses stick.
@@Yous0147 I'm not sure where this argument originated from, but I hear/read it very often. Wavedash does not replace a single cd and bdc does not replace a single backdash, just like how a single jab cannot be replaced by a 122/121/123/124 or whatever string. They all have their own unique purpose(s) as well as pros and cons.
@@Bilal44 Exactly wavedashing leaves you vulnerable/inactionable and while it's incredibly good for microspacing, dash dancing and even walking to an extent is just as important to neutral and spacing.
@@eliastew9636 What? The purpose of wavedashing is to make you move while being able to do any actions. The only drawback is that you lose the invincibility frames. (but you can block/dash if you need to). And while the dribble is a good exemple on why we should keep the dash canceling technique in tekken it doesn't approach the problem people have about it. People doesn't say it should be removed. People say it should be made accessible. To take the example of basket, it's like they kept dribble in games but you have to do the pass input every steps. And with your logic you should ask for it. Because dribble has some drawback (people can take the ball while you dribble) so it's not exactly superior as just putting your foot forward.
Namco when someone finds an unintended moment exploit: OMG THIS IS SO COOL AND HAS TO BE IN ALL GAMES AAAAHHH Nintendo when someone finds an unintended moment exploit: Pulls out gun
OK, so you didn't clarify this in the video but, as far as I understand, you can not perform Korean Backdash with a regular controller? You need a stick? If so, this gives some players immense advantage. So, using your analogy, it's like some players can wear gloves that let them dribble and those who don't wear this special gloves can't dribble. Which I think is a problem.
You CAN perform this on a stick and even a PS4 dpad, it’s just a lot harder with the smaller space and lack of extra back input when returning stick to neutral. As someone who does have an arcade stick for all my fighting games, I actually agree that T8 should maybe make steps to make KBD more of an equalized mechanic across inputs either by finding a way to remove that extra free input that arcade stick players get or just making backdashes naturally cancel themselves.
The comperation with dribbling is kind of weak in my opinion. You put the harder motion of the Tekken exploit against the easy motion of drippeling. It is easy to learn drippeling, but hard to master. So if chaining backdashes in Tekken is so important, why doesn't Nemco just have people cancel a backdash with another backdash, so that there is a lower skill floor? The evoltion of L-Chanceling in Smash is similar. There is never a reason to not L-Chancel. So it just becomes a skill check. In later games the developers just include auto-chanceling. Instead of a skill check it is now just a knowledge check (knowing the auto-chanceling window) and a property of moves (moves with good auto-chanceling window are better combo moves). It also isn't dumped down, you just change the skill check from refelex to knowledge, which is beginner friendlier.
I've actually witnessed the Korean Backdash in real life. Friend and I were walking around Evo 2019 and we saw Knee. Friend wanted to get a picture with him. We looked away for a second and he was gone. Knee is such a god at Tekken that he can KBD in real life. Took a couple minutes to find him again so my friend could get that picture.
Knee's RUclips channel has pretty good content too He recently opened a tournament in South Korea with his own $, did commentary as well as participate. He won haha such a troll
It takes a month to move 6 to remember unsafe moves you need to punish properly, and a lifetime for mastering each character specific counters at high level.
legit turtle vs hare situation. one team moving fast thanks to dribbling, the other stuck in place having to pass the ball to move. now you got guys like lebron stream rolling to the basket like a freight train. also funny that the rule naismith came up with is still being used, it's just that players are passing to themselves via dribbling.
The whole reason why dribbling was initially frowned upon officially was because the ball was supposed to be stealable from players without needing to get too violent. If they could move around with the ball, that idea could be in jeopardy. Thankfully, dribbling opens up the ball enough that that isn't too much of an issue. And because it allowed that freedom of movement, it made smaller team sizes viable, and now we have five in play per team at once instead of the original nine, which wasn't even a regulation standard initially.
Yup but your opponent doesn’t like social distancing so they will try punch you, but with expert retreating techniques you could maintain that perfect 6ft distance.
@@Geheimnis-c2e the 3 sec rule under the basket is literally because of shaq camping under and just overpowering with dunks and rebound, like at the time, he never really do anything other than camping under the basket just waiting for a pass or rebounding the ball
A list of technical skills I’ve acquired in Tekken: • comically slow wavedash • standing block (let go of stick) • I can count to four. Just kidding, I lied about the second one; I always manually block by holding back as hard as I can like a 2D scrub.
U don't need tekken 7, tekken it's like fifa, every single game its exactly the same, so if u learned 1 character back then in first tekken and its in any other tekken u're good, same applies to the kbd
@@FewRxi, I'll have to disagree with you there, I've been playing tekken for years and not all tekken games are the same Tekken 6 and tekken 7 have entirely different combo mechanics and if you don't know either, you won't get very far, and tekken 5 has a different way of optimizing combos from both tekken 6 and 7 Not to mention characters get new moves added and removed when new games come out To say that Tekken 1 is the same as tekken 7 is just WRONG.
@@FewRxi You know nothing about Tekken, it’s not a yearly release, every title of Tekken is released, a lot of things changed. Fifa or sports games that released every year will either be busted or just still stay the same, just graphically improved or, worse.
I can’t wait for this video to blow up with comments like this one about Kazuya in Smash, especially when Smashers find out that Kazuya doesn’t have auto turn around, but rather has KBD.
if they actually let him KBD that'd be sick. But remember that this is also the franchise which got rid of wavedashing AKA the most freeflow fighting game movement option of all time, or at least the most freeflow one I'm aware of
Can you imagine though. What if Nintendo embraced Wavedashing and kept it in every iteration of smash since Melee. How much further would the game have evolved competitively if they were for exciting emergent gameplay rather than against it.
@@Gilthwixt1 I don’t think that whether a smash game has wavedash or not really contributes to competitive potential. Especially because wavedash allowed for better movement but also complimented Melee’s physics engine. I mean the only reason it even happens is because of Melee’s physics engine I’m pretty sure. It would be weird to have it in Ultimate wouldn’t really feel right. Although you can waveland.
@@Gold_Red52 Wavedashing may be a quirk of the physics engine in Melee, but it doesn't have to be. Rivals of Aether was created with the wavedash in mind as an example, and it feels in my opinion a lot smoother to use than in Melee (which is to say it doesn't seem to break controllers or people's hands). If they smoothed out wavedashing and made it a regular movement option, similar to how games adopted move cancelling after Street Fighter 2 accidentally let you cancel normals into specials, then it could become much more casual friendly like RoA wavedashing already is.
This is why you don't listen to casual players talk about balancing the game on a competitive level. You might as well grab a random pedestrian and have him give you legal advice.
I never comment, but just wanted to compliment how you connected the Korean Backdash to the historical development of dribbling in basketball. Stroke of genius. I loved it!
exactly this, the real solution is to make it so that you don't need to master fiddly inputs just to move backwards. Just make it so that you can move at the same speed with normal backdash spam
@@gogogagagugu2134 that's the issue with the FGC is catering to tryhard tournament players and regular casuals. Very difficult to make a game for both.
I shit you not, getting back into Tekken right now and found that my movement is what I needed to improve on the most. Was literally going to look up tutorials on movement and the man himself has blessed me with knowledge. Love you Core A.
As a basketball player and a tekken player this is by far one of my favorite videos. I loved this one. Great comparison and analyzation from a player and developer standpoint. Cheers Core-A Gaming!
The story about dribbling reminds me of how stealing bases came to be a thing in baseball. During a pro game way back the 19th century, a guy just decided to run from 1st to 2nd base during a pitcher's delivery to the plate. Because there was no rule in place preventing it, stealing bases became a thing.
JDCR said a while ago that learning KBD is not a "must". Which is just a situational technique. He also mentioned that not everyone knows when to apply KBD. The most important thing is to learn the fundamentals of Tekken.
I know that blasted salami has said that he’s tried to get some people into tekken once and they thought that the twitching seizures that tekken characters do looked stupid and made them think movement was unimportant, but the first time I saw tournament footage I thought it was really cool because it looked obvious that they were using some sort of advanced movement technique. It actually attracted me to the game.
I'll be honest I enjoy the visual spectacle that naturally comes with high-level play, and I feel as though Tekken's twitching seizures really does detract from that. I know for those involved in the scene it's par for the course and they don't bat an eye, I understand that there's complex technical depth behind what I'm seeing but it will never not look dumb to me.
It's one of the reason why I hate Tekken. In many fighting games movement is OK as it is. It's effective on its own. In Tekken so advanced techniques are necessary.
@@RanmaruRei movement is the core of Tekken. Its movement should not be, as easy as other fighters. The techniques are not unnecessary, they are just so much more powerful than in other fighters that it makes sense to make them harder to do. Having an easier option is fine (like ladder stepping or qcb), but the advanced techniques should always be better. The only super hard movement techniques are kbd and ss anyway. Maybe wavedash if you have a char with one (Bob, Hwo, Mishimas, etc.). And these aren't even needed until intermediate play.
So if this movement isn't supposed to be part of Tekken, yet the devs kept it in the newer games, I'd say it's part of the game now. Just like dribbling in Basketball. Otherwise they would've tried to remove it like Smash.
They kind of did remove it in Tekken 4. If you tried to chain more than 2 of them your next backdashes would cover less space. People didn't like that so they brought it back in Tekken 5.
I still find it hard to believe that there was an entire decade and change where the devs thought that 8-way run was a "problem" to be addressed, so they made it 8-way crawl, instead. Glad they finally got their act together again with SC6. :)
This is one of the reasons I prefer Soulcalibur over Tekken - because movement is immediately accessible and understood by most players. You aren't locked into constant inputs for efficiency, it's simple because it should be.
@@ThiefofCrystals if you are new to tekken, don't kbd. Instead do backdash, sidestep, backdash. Kbd won't make your footsie better all of sudden. Other things are more important for beginners to learn. Unfortunately that a big problem with tekken, beginners think that learning some advanced things as necessary to play the game at a decent level, and even worse, they go online and get the impression that these things are fundamental and take priority to learning them. Don't be fooled, kbd isn't necessary to learn at the beginning, and you should start learning it when you reach rank 20 online.
@@mmmk6322 While I do appreciate the advice the sheer fact that you're providing an alternative for movement - a sequence instead of an input - kinda proves my point. This conversation simply wouldn't happen in other fighting games and it frankly shouldn't.
@@reeseon10 wavedashing is only a portion of what is basic movement in competitive melee, although by far the most famous. L-cancelling, wavelanding, jump heights, tilt vs smash inputs, DI & SDI (debatabely not movement but without these you won't last with experienced players), SHFFLing, and I'm sure other tech I'm forgetting is all pretty much required to have ok control of your movement, before character specific movement is then taken into play as well (think ledgedashes/waveshines/moonwalk etc). For most people, just L-cancelling consistently is a significant challenge, and tilt vs smash inputs as well. So the amount of time for most people to get competent enough at movement to play competitively and have any chance of not being steamrolled is a huge barrier to entry, and movement alone will not bring you up to the competitive skill floor- you need to get there with movement & then start applying it in neutral, advantage, disadvantage, and make it work with your character's moves. All together that's a very high skill floor compared to many past times. Oh, and it's all happening at a way faster pace than most people ever play games. Of course all this doesn't mean Melee is bad or whatnot, it's a game like any other we play at the end of the day. This one just requires a massive dedication competitively, and then mix that with the communities you find in any group of people who all love one thing, and it can get toxic for many. So yeah, Melee's movement standards competitively are pretty bonkers for most people. So is running a marathon, though.
@@ivrydice0954 I think you're right, it really ain't what people are asking for when they want "rollback" though. It's like saying your game runs at 60 fps but it's so badly optimized that it constantly goes to 25. You might as well cap it at 30 and not much would change
NBA Jam's exploit was that if you were ahead, goal tending was a viable way to play defense. At worse you only surrender 2 points and if your team can shoot the 3ball as well or you get the 'he's on fire buff', you have control of the game.
That was a great piece of content. You showed good examples of movements to distinguish the differences between fighting games, gave a great parallel with Basketball to contextualize the impact and relevancy of the technique and gave us a free history lesson at the same time. Kept the video from having a ridiculous runtime and even put the sponsored ad at the end. I'll be looking forward to your next videos, keep it up!
I don't really buy the basketball example as a good argument for KBD not being an exploit. Dribbling is a well understood rule for the game now. KBD is an unintuitive exploit used by try-hards to have an advantage. And the FGC continues to wonder why no one plays fighting games.
The reason why "no one plays fighting games" is because people like winning to much and avoid putting in effort and losing. The souls games are similar to fighting games where it's all trial and error and improvement. That turns people off. It's not the advanced mechanics that draw people off.
"Melee: A game where the movement uniquely revolves around wavedashing and L-canceling" Actually L-canceling isn't a movement technique, just an obscure mechanic of an old game. The sentence would flow better if it said "Melee: A game where the movement uniquely revolves around wavedashing and dash-dancing".
Since Smash is a platform fighter/brawler, I'd say the ability to reduce recovery frames of aerial attacks opens up a lot of movement opportunities for players. It is also why quite a few melee veterans will say stuff like "You have to truly commit to every move you do in Smash Ultimate," as the choice of using evasive options upon a successful L-cancel is taken away.
I feel like the well is poisoned when criticizing advanced techniques because the response is always "git gud". One can understand the possible benefits of an emergent gameplay technique and still feel that the technique in question is worse for the game. As a community we need to talk in terms of benefits and downsides of these techniques and assume that critics have an understanding beyond "not intended = bad".
I feel like the Korean Backdash is one of those moves that is too taxing on certain people's fingers so the game's higher tier play is reserved for those who are mechanically able to do this move consistently over long periods of time. Age of Empires 2 has a tactic called Quickwalling which is advanced but anyone can learn it with simple hotkey presses, to the point where even a disabled person reached a higher than average ELO in ranked. I think that's the very valid argument against tekken's backdash. Comparing it to basketball where just about anyone can dribble is weird. Fun fact at least!
those who not to don't see eye to eye basically all fighting game players given on what they play to what's foreign to them (2D players, 3D players Anime players, Smash to those still playing DOA 6 haha I kid on the last one kinda) then the vet's Vs those new cause they saw a video on youtube or a Vet streaming or stumbled onto old comp footage to are confused of the wizardry their seeing. To differences, in 2D games compared to 3D and anime FG's got diff things to kinda can the 2D game things in Tekken now adding in foreign things in what ain't had them but in this case the nitty gritty "hidden" techniques which only "hardcore" players knew of many gave long and stressing "how to KBD" TLDR's to new players and those that ask "what's that movement thing" and get essays on how to do it they not hit the level of play to the mindset of 300+ *insert FG here* thinking the mind games, setup's, meta's and so on. at 1st all will think normal fighting game things are "broken" and as I said those not from x type of FG will say a normal type of actually intended mechanic is "cheating" or broken when it's not then the non intended "hidden" stuff which are common knowledge but some got barriers of timing windows which turn away many but the lab monsters got them down more them average but even them can't nail it all the time *it be like that* the journey is fun to some too.
Best example would be k-style in GunZ. People perform a lot of animation cancels for optimal damage, defense and snappy movement. Largely taxing in the hands over long periods and it takes out a lot of strategy when it's effectively spamming macros till something hits. It even came to a point where people using automatics as intended were looked down upon.
Sweet music for the KBD explanation. There's an epic, old-school flash animation fight between Ken and Raiden with the same music. Brought back memories haha
I had no idea about the Yale dribbling "scandal" when it came to basketball. The fact that you were able to reference it to how KBD fits and affects Tekken is pretty remarkable.
It’s not talked about as much but dash dancing in melee is also a main difference from other smash games. It makes the gameplay rely on dashing and precise and nuanced spacing. The turn around animation is 1 frame so you can bait and draw attacks and manipulate space in a way that isn’t present in other smash titles. Add wavedashing and a world of feints and baits open up and make the game enjoyable and replayable for years.
Dude I have an orange Tabby too! His name is Nacho and he’s mah boy! Great video as always. Thank you. The Korean backdash is similar to a short jazz phrase
Korean backdash must be one of the shitiest mechanics of movement, the comment is right about that, but in my opinion, if you want to conserve this mechanic at least Namco needs to make the korean backdash more rewarding, instead of making a baby step at least increase the backdash gap, because in the hands of beginners is useless and frustrating.
Another irl example of unintended techinques in a game is baseball. For whatever reason, there was a point in the games history where stealing bases wasn't a thing. But that changed once a team from Pittsburgh decided that there was nothing in the rule book explicitly banning the practice, so they took advantage. People didnt like the new techinique, giving it the name of a stolen base (implying it wasnt won by legetimate means) and branding the team from Pittsburgh as the Pirates. The name stuck :)
couldn't we just have better and faster movement at this point though? let us zoom around like Pokken? It would match the tone of the story cutscenes at least, always thought there was a dissonance between how the game plays and how it portrays itself
The only way the "banning dribbling" metaphor works would be if they removed KBD and replaced it with nothing. But would letting the player normally cancel backdash into backdash make the game less enjoyable? The only complaint would likely be from players salty that they spent the time to practice the traditional input. To me, this is like if basketball had a rule that you were only allowed to dribble if you were walking on your heels at the same time. Locking a full speed backdash behind a weird input exploit seems like the actual restrictive rule.
Right. If people liked the faster movement just let players backlash multiple times or increase the backwards movement speed. Another difference is that dribbling is well understood. People don't know it's "passing to yourself", they just think it's a rule of the game to move and provide opportunities for the opposing team to steal the ball from you.
Great video, I wish there was a little bit more emphasis on being able to block while backdashing in Tekken. Tekken is only a fighting game where backdashing is completely safe and non-committal as you can cancel it before the end of the backdash. I believe expanding on KBD alternatives, like backdash canceling (BD>SS>BD), and it's utility of additionally moving you away from the wall, are extremely helpful.
My personal stance on techniques like this is all it does is add an unnecessary filter and usually increases hand problems in pro play. It's not really a skill as much as a required habit to compete with anyone else who bothered to learn it, with the actual skill only coming from being able to do it, with no real impact on anything else, unlike wavedashing. I feel similarly about L Canceling in smash bros, which is also an intended mechanic which does nothing bit add a filter and limit the game to those who don't have time to practice it.
I dunno if I agree with the logic here. Emergent gameplay is great and all, but, and disclaimer that I don't play Tekken so I don't have much understanding of the nuance... I dunno man that just looks kinda fucked up? Maybe it's not as big a deal as it looks from this perspective but I don't think basic movement should be a super difficult technical task. If some new really tough tech was found in one of the games I play that you basically had to learn in order to compete, I wouldn't be too happy about that... and of course that's not even getting into the issue of the major advantages this puts on certain kinds of controllers over others (but that's a whole other cam of worms)
Hope 2020 part 2 is treating everyone well. Again, thanks to Ridge Wallet for the support while letting me make the content I want. If you want 10% off a wallet, go to ridge.com/COREAGAMING.
Lmao I was so interesting in the dribbling part I completely forgot I was watching a core A video
nom nom nom more core a vidz
I love your videos. I mean freakin Baseketball analogy??
Worth the wait
Thanks for the vid, as a hardcore Tekken player, I didn't get how Korean Backdashing worked, also, can you please do a vid on Mishima Wavedashing?
weird to go into a tangent about dribbling instead of just addressing the fact that they could make that the backdash speed if its intentional
“Oh heihachi look,kazuya is taking his first steps"
Baby Kazuya: ⬅️⬅️↙️⬅️⬅️↙️⬅️⬅️....
Everyone should practice KDB with Paul Phoenix's theme from Tekken 3 OST.
I actually saw that video.
I loved that video
good to see more speedo fans
That video is hilarious
“Now everyone has to do hand gymnastics to do basic movements”
*laughs in melee*
I think the issue with the comment above is this. You aren't doing hand gymnastics for basic movement. You are doing hand gymnastics for *advanced* movement. The moment it becomes considered tech or an exploit its no longer basic.
Imagine thinking smash is a complicated game
@@Patchnose but at 2:22 the guy on the forum said the same thing about KBD. He was referring to the KBD when he said “everyone has to do hand gymnastics to do basic movement.” Even though it’s not basic movement. I said the same abt melee
You’re technically right because it’s not basic movement but I didn’t think the comment would be funny if I had a caviat about how it’s not technically basic movement, it would have seemed too wordy
@@walkeranderson730 Yeah my comment was mostly criticizing that comment. The korean backdash is not basic movement. Its an advanced technique. Same for wavedashing in melee. Its no longer basic if its tech. I think its kind of goofy to think just because a technique is necessary to be relevant at a high level means its basic.
Edit: Just wanted to make sure you knew I wasn't criticizing you.
It's a pretty interesting historical analogy to have the KBD and dribbling, tho there's a lot more that could be drawn out of the implication, for one whether "Traveling" would be considered "casualized" version of dribbling, which is very much frowned upon and so on.
It's also worth differentiating that "who" is making the rules of dribbling (a big, institutional governing body), while, apparently, "outsiders' of the fgc have been very much pushing for lowering the technical skill ceiling/floor, across the board, and whether that's worth commenting on in community's reaction.
But I do agree most with your common theme/sentiment in most of your vids, that fighting games should be some sort of "metropolitan" amassment of variety, that, to quote another FGC youtuber Leon Massey, "Fighting Games are for Everyone™, but not EVERY game needs to be for EVERY one". While the concept of a fighting game is stereotypically competitive and requiring technical dexterity to learn, I do thing, being "unique perhaps at the cost of mainstream acceptability, or even accessability" is the concept Fighting Game has been tussling with for a long time that I hope actually becomes generally acceptable, at least in the way weird indie games like indie RPGmaker horror games, Eurojank Slavic Suffering Walking Sims, Rogue-lites so detached from the original Rogue and other niche genres with acceptance within the general gaming space, if not culture as a whole.
I agree that fighting games shouldn't necessarily be for everyone. However, I also think we should make moves and movement as intuitive and enjoyable to do as possibly can be while upholding the competitive and difficult integrety of the game. And personally, I feel wavedashing and to a degree, KBD shows a direction that the players want the game to move in, but they're also weighed down by being wonky and quirky instead of intuitive purely by being unintended input "exploits" rather than well implemented into the game proper in terms of input. If wavedashing and KBD is better than the current movement option, then imo the current ones should be replaced for those but the inputs should be as intuitive and fitting as the original limited options. Why? Because wavedashing and KBD essentially replaces the former options entirely, because these options are core universal aspects to movement and because you shouldn't be forced to resign to a wonky design quirk to be able to compete, even if some might've come to enjoy it in a niche way or grow the muscle memory for it. What the adoption of KBD tells us is that it's a strong option and possibly also that people prefer fast unlimited backdash to the limited one. So the clear option here is to make that the default option, but imo not to keep it behind complex inputs, especially considering not everyone uses stick.
@@Yous0147 I'm not sure where this argument originated from, but I hear/read it very often.
Wavedash does not replace a single cd and bdc does not replace a single backdash, just like how a single jab cannot be replaced by a 122/121/123/124 or whatever string. They all have their own unique purpose(s) as well as pros and cons.
@@Bilal44 Exactly wavedashing leaves you vulnerable/inactionable and while it's incredibly good for microspacing, dash dancing and even walking to an extent is just as important to neutral and spacing.
@@eliastew9636 What? The purpose of wavedashing is to make you move while being able to do any actions. The only drawback is that you lose the invincibility frames. (but you can block/dash if you need to).
And while the dribble is a good exemple on why we should keep the dash canceling technique in tekken it doesn't approach the problem people have about it.
People doesn't say it should be removed. People say it should be made accessible. To take the example of basket, it's like they kept dribble in games but you have to do the pass input every steps.
And with your logic you should ask for it. Because dribble has some drawback (people can take the ball while you dribble) so it's not exactly superior as just putting your foot forward.
im dying for more videos
As a Beowulf main coming over from sg2e I am glad to see people appreciating speed hopping
Namco when someone finds an unintended moment exploit: OMG THIS IS SO COOL AND HAS TO BE IN ALL GAMES AAAAHHH
Nintendo when someone finds an unintended moment exploit: Pulls out gun
OK, so you didn't clarify this in the video but, as far as I understand, you can not perform Korean Backdash with a regular controller? You need a stick? If so, this gives some players immense advantage.
So, using your analogy, it's like some players can wear gloves that let them dribble and those who don't wear this special gloves can't dribble. Which I think is a problem.
It is possible to do it with a controller but it does put a lot of stress on the stick
You CAN perform this on a stick and even a PS4 dpad, it’s just a lot harder with the smaller space and lack of extra back input when returning stick to neutral. As someone who does have an arcade stick for all my fighting games, I actually agree that T8 should maybe make steps to make KBD more of an equalized mechanic across inputs either by finding a way to remove that extra free input that arcade stick players get or just making backdashes naturally cancel themselves.
I thought this was something mythical that I didn't know about. Awesome vid, a more informed scene is good for everyone involved.
Love when you incorporate real life with fighting games. In this video's case, some basketball!
Dribbling is a technique that gives an unfair advantage to pro players and only further widens the skill gap for casuals in basketball, nerfs needed.
I prefer to call it a " Core-A-an backdash"
4:48 this hurts to watch
The comperation with dribbling is kind of weak in my opinion. You put the harder motion of the Tekken exploit against the easy motion of drippeling. It is easy to learn drippeling, but hard to master.
So if chaining backdashes in Tekken is so important, why doesn't Nemco just have people cancel a backdash with another backdash, so that there is a lower skill floor?
The evoltion of L-Chanceling in Smash is similar. There is never a reason to not L-Chancel. So it just becomes a skill check. In later games the developers just include auto-chanceling. Instead of a skill check it is now just a knowledge check (knowing the auto-chanceling window) and a property of moves (moves with good auto-chanceling window are better combo moves).
It also isn't dumped down, you just change the skill check from refelex to knowledge, which is beginner friendlier.
You don’t need to do it, but it sure as hell helps is what i’m gathering here
When he said basketball also has a movement exploit, I thought he was about to talk about 2k speedboosting
Yeah its called uncalled travels in the NBA right?
TSkillzX I’m talking about speed boosting in nba 2k playboi.
TSkillzX no, but it is what people who don’t know basketball call a travel.
_ Maza _ you think if WNBA players Korean back dashed better they would get more viewers?
I thought he was going talk about james harden's double "backdash" 🤣
Hopefully people don't catch you doing a sloppy version of this or you'll have yourself a slapdash backdash backlash
Yoooo I know you
Vietnamese backlash lmaoo
Oh my god, it's GMTK watching Core-A gaming! Nice!
Yooo you should make a video on melee
Pls never make a video on melee, you're too good for that
The first person to dribble:
"I'm passing the ball to myself"
Everyone gasped in awe
🤯
"I'm passing the ball...to myself..!"
*multiple gasps and anime splitscreens of the entire audience*
Yale writing dribbing ruining basketball is hilarious 😂
@@justinjohnson2855 the fact all of the controversy is actually serious is very funny to me
"i'm passing the ball to myself"
indian soap opera editors: "my time has come"
I've actually witnessed the Korean Backdash in real life. Friend and I were walking around Evo 2019 and we saw Knee. Friend wanted to get a picture with him. We looked away for a second and he was gone. Knee is such a god at Tekken that he can KBD in real life. Took a couple minutes to find him again so my friend could get that picture.
That's excellent. 😂
Emergent gameplay
Knee's RUclips channel has pretty good content too
He recently opened a tournament in South Korea with his own $, did commentary as well as participate. He won haha such a troll
😂😂
Lmao
Ah Tekken.... the only game where moving back takes a month to practice
A month? lolz.
@@richcore You needed a year, right?
@@CarbonRollerCaco 15 years actually.
It takes a month to move 6 to remember unsafe moves you need to punish properly, and a lifetime for mastering each character specific counters at high level.
You fool it took me 3 tekken games to learn
Dribbling an advanced movement technique that broke the game.
legit turtle vs hare situation. one team moving fast thanks to dribbling, the other stuck in place having to pass the ball to move. now you got guys like lebron stream rolling to the basket like a freight train.
also funny that the rule naismith came up with is still being used, it's just that players are passing to themselves via dribbling.
This sounds like tierzoo material
The whole reason why dribbling was initially frowned upon officially was because the ball was supposed to be stealable from players without needing to get too violent. If they could move around with the ball, that idea could be in jeopardy. Thankfully, dribbling opens up the ball enough that that isn't too much of an issue. And because it allowed that freedom of movement, it made smaller team sizes viable, and now we have five in play per team at once instead of the original nine, which wasn't even a regulation standard initially.
Hey
Ib4 they allow kicking the ball when then update the next basketball rules lmao
The Korean Backdash is top tier level Social Distancing technique
Yup but your opponent doesn’t like social distancing so they will try punch you, but with expert retreating techniques you could maintain that perfect 6ft distance.
"oh my gosh I haven't seen you in soo long! Have you learned any new skills since the quarantine?"
"Yes" *does a 360 and KBD away*
agree
You ever just.....Korean backdash in real life?
and the society is doing wave dash
Came here to learn KBD ended up getting educated on how dribbling came to be in Basketball.
This video is well put together.
By the time the basketball analogy ended I had literally forgot I was watching a Tekken video on backdashing.
exaggerated
@@eavyeavy2864oh
Never knew dribbling wasn't intentional, thanks for the wrinkle in the brain.
There was a time when dunking was prohibited as well.
@@bennymountain1 *screams in Hanamichi Sakuragi*
@@bennymountain1 Cuz of Shaq?
@@Geheimnis-c2e I heard it was because of Kareem Abdul Jabar, who was so tall that he could just gently lift the ball into the hoop.
@@Geheimnis-c2e the 3 sec rule under the basket is literally because of shaq camping under and just overpowering with dunks and rebound, like at the time, he never really do anything other than camping under the basket just waiting for a pass or rebounding the ball
This is literally the only thing I know how to do in Tekken.
Well, I can't do this.
But I play Kuma anyways so
Same 😂
this is literally me hahah
real
A list of technical skills I’ve acquired in Tekken:
• comically slow wavedash
• standing block (let go of stick)
• I can count to four.
Just kidding, I lied about the second one; I always manually block by holding back as hard as I can like a 2D scrub.
almost thought the "yale dribbling ruins basketball" article was real lmao
I was actually worried about that for a second lol
@@CoreAGaming I thought it was until reading this comment, so maybe those fears were well-founded lol
I thought it was real
Lol thanks for bringing it to my attention
It’s not?
I fucking love that I watched this purely to learn how to KBD in tekken only to also have a lesson on basketball at the same time 💀
Damn, what happened to this channel?
Probably dead
@@wirataadidharma yeah dead
dead
@@lilyliao9521 *1 week ago*
Now he has revived
From now on, I'm only playing basketball without dribbling. That'll show those cheaters
Your friends on the court will not let you be great if you do this. Trust me...
Man i remember ishimaru.
@Anton Marshall I know, i was making a joke lol.
anyone who dribbles isn't *really* playing basketball..
So Netball?
Me who didn’t even own Tekken 7: _Hm yes, very useful_
U don't need tekken 7, tekken it's like fifa, every single game its exactly the same, so if u learned 1 character back then in first tekken and its in any other tekken u're good, same applies to the kbd
@@FewRxi, I'll have to disagree with you there, I've been playing tekken for years and not all tekken games are the same
Tekken 6 and tekken 7 have entirely different combo mechanics and if you don't know either, you won't get very far, and tekken 5 has a different way of optimizing combos from both tekken 6 and 7
Not to mention characters get new moves added and removed when new games come out
To say that Tekken 1 is the same as tekken 7 is just WRONG.
I agree with you both.
@@FewRxi You know nothing about Tekken, it’s not a yearly release, every title of Tekken is released, a lot of things changed. Fifa or sports games that released every year will either be busted or just still stay the same, just graphically improved or, worse.
@@FewRxi whoa now Tekken don't got a gambling "mechanic" in it ....
well i remember when fifa games didn't.... miss those days....
i didn't know basketball athlete is doing korean backdash everytime.
Korean backdash before Korea
Harden is doing it spot on
National Backdash Association
More like an American Pass Dash.
What 🤣
Can’t wait to backwash in Smash
(Edit: omg I meant Korean backdash)
Congratulations Kazuya of being in Smash!
Hahahahhahahahahahahahahahahaa
Backwash lmao
@@VelvetVelva vrooo how did I not notice
I can’t wait for this video to blow up with comments like this one about Kazuya in Smash, especially when Smashers find out that Kazuya doesn’t have auto turn around, but rather has KBD.
if they actually let him KBD that'd be sick. But remember that this is also the franchise which got rid of wavedashing AKA the most freeflow fighting game movement option of all time, or at least the most freeflow one I'm aware of
i think he does have auto turn around though
inb4 Sakurai confirms that Kazuya doesn't actually have KBD in smash
He is unfortunately confirmed to have auto turnaround, not KBD, as of earlier today.
@@ultimayashade8920 I’m going to have to hold that fat L.
Tekken players: *Backdashes Koreanly
"Sweat lords at Yale"
"But in 1897, the sweatlords over at yale "
Hope you're all ready for Korean Dashdancing in Smash Ultimate.
Yes Pyra, that’s a pretty good backflip.
“The Korean back dash” sounds like a term that would mean “To back away and isolate yourself to end a dispute”
AYY ive seen you on globku's super baby 2 breakdown. A member of the FGC community I assume
That's the North Korean backdash.
@@SMRTMinako The Democratic People’s Backdash of North Korea
Backdash onto the rooftops during the 1992 L.A. peaceful protests by performing the roof korean backdash.
Like the irish exit lol.
I've never had KBD explained this clearly. Thank you so much, Gerald
The scrubs committee believes that the limitation of wavedashing is a necessary step in the best interests of me not throwing my controller.
Can you imagine though. What if Nintendo embraced Wavedashing and kept it in every iteration of smash since Melee. How much further would the game have evolved competitively if they were for exciting emergent gameplay rather than against it.
@@Gilthwixt1 that would suck so much
@@gusbabiski but why
@@Gilthwixt1 I don’t think that whether a smash game has wavedash or not really contributes to competitive potential. Especially because wavedash allowed for better movement but also complimented Melee’s physics engine. I mean the only reason it even happens is because of Melee’s physics engine I’m pretty sure. It would be weird to have it in Ultimate wouldn’t really feel right. Although you can waveland.
@@Gold_Red52 Wavedashing may be a quirk of the physics engine in Melee, but it doesn't have to be. Rivals of Aether was created with the wavedash in mind as an example, and it feels in my opinion a lot smoother to use than in Melee (which is to say it doesn't seem to break controllers or people's hands). If they smoothed out wavedashing and made it a regular movement option, similar to how games adopted move cancelling after Street Fighter 2 accidentally let you cancel normals into specials, then it could become much more casual friendly like RoA wavedashing already is.
This is why you don't listen to casual players talk about balancing the game on a competitive level. You might as well grab a random pedestrian and have him give you legal advice.
I never comment, but just wanted to compliment how you connected the Korean Backdash to the historical development of dribbling in basketball. Stroke of genius. I loved it!
for more of these check past Core-A-Gaming videos :)
@@M4TTYN agree. Sad he doesnt upload anymore
@@skinnyskinny2676 *Pakistani Tekken*
@@Berd-Wasted.its been so long man
"Sir, all the players are using an input glitch to move at a reasonable speed in our games. Should we just change the move speed already?"
*"No."*
I mean, they changed the walk back animation. It used to be completely useless. Now you can actually get some whiffs with it.
They did remove backdash cancel in Tekken 4 lol.
While it was brought back later, games like Tekken 6 and Tekken 7 nerfed movement, so yeah lol.
@@Lukmendes I miss T5 movement
@@bennymountain1 dog what game are you playing? Single backdashing is so bad in T7.
In short: "Does the unintended technique improve or hurt the game?"
If improve, smooth it out. If hurt, patch it.
exactly this, the real solution is to make it so that you don't need to master fiddly inputs just to move backwards. Just make it so that you can move at the same speed with normal backdash spam
@@gogogagagugu2134 that's the issue with the FGC is catering to tryhard tournament players and regular casuals. Very difficult to make a game for both.
I shit you not, getting back into Tekken right now and found that my movement is what I needed to improve on the most. Was literally going to look up tutorials on movement and the man himself has blessed me with knowledge. Love you Core A.
Facts lmao, remember the days of fighting games before internet 🤣🤣🤣
As a basketball player and a tekken player this is by far one of my favorite videos. I loved this one. Great comparison and analyzation from a player and developer standpoint. Cheers Core-A Gaming!
Analyzation
The story about dribbling reminds me of how stealing bases came to be a thing in baseball. During a pro game way back the 19th century, a guy just decided to run from 1st to 2nd base during a pitcher's delivery to the plate. Because there was no rule in place preventing it, stealing bases became a thing.
6 months no video, I'm sad
Where did you go :(
JDCR said a while ago that learning KBD is not a "must". Which is just a situational technique. He also mentioned that not everyone knows when to apply KBD. The most important thing is to learn the fundamentals of Tekken.
Then KBD doesn't have the impact that dribbling did on Basketball?
I know that blasted salami has said that he’s tried to get some people into tekken once and they thought that the twitching seizures that tekken characters do looked stupid and made them think movement was unimportant, but the first time I saw tournament footage I thought it was really cool because it looked obvious that they were using some sort of advanced movement technique. It actually attracted me to the game.
movement isn't just backdash (little compare to old games) it's also sidestep and it's very weak in sense that every moves tracks like hell
I'll be honest I enjoy the visual spectacle that naturally comes with high-level play, and I feel as though Tekken's twitching seizures really does detract from that. I know for those involved in the scene it's par for the course and they don't bat an eye, I understand that there's complex technical depth behind what I'm seeing but it will never not look dumb to me.
@@3rdDanPrime Ye, but that's a T7 problem :(
Hope T8 will have stronger movement again and less emphasis on oppressive df1.
It's one of the reason why I hate Tekken.
In many fighting games movement is OK as it is. It's effective on its own. In Tekken so advanced techniques are necessary.
@@RanmaruRei movement is the core of Tekken. Its movement should not be, as easy as other fighters. The techniques are not unnecessary, they are just so much more powerful than in other fighters that it makes sense to make them harder to do. Having an easier option is fine (like ladder stepping or qcb), but the advanced techniques should always be better. The only super hard movement techniques are kbd and ss anyway. Maybe wavedash if you have a char with one (Bob, Hwo, Mishimas, etc.). And these aren't even needed until intermediate play.
So if this movement isn't supposed to be part of Tekken, yet the devs kept it in the newer games, I'd say it's part of the game now. Just like dribbling in Basketball. Otherwise they would've tried to remove it like Smash.
They kind of did remove it in Tekken 4. If you tried to chain more than 2 of them your next backdashes would cover less space. People didn't like that so they brought it back in Tekken 5.
@@bruhmomentum But if they brought it back, it's still _technically_ dev approved. Although perhaps begrudgingly.
@@soldierstride554 then they reduced movement in t7 and made it mixup, guessing heavy so kbd isn't as vital for casual players.
“When the world needed him most, he returned.”
Not original
@@woozy1885 But true
@@woozy1885 he right tho
I'm genuinely sick of seeing this comment. When saying nothing puts everyone, including yourself, better off, you should not say anything.
@@Poet482 It is pretty tiring at this point.
Movement is exactly why I play Soul Calibur. The 8 way movement is what defines the whole game.
I still find it hard to believe that there was an entire decade and change where the devs thought that 8-way run was a "problem" to be addressed, so they made it 8-way crawl, instead. Glad they finally got their act together again with SC6. :)
and the korean backdash is literally sophitia’s angelstep but backwards
This is one of the reasons I prefer Soulcalibur over Tekken - because movement is immediately accessible and understood by most players. You aren't locked into constant inputs for efficiency, it's simple because it should be.
@@ThiefofCrystals if you are new to tekken, don't kbd. Instead do backdash, sidestep, backdash. Kbd won't make your footsie better all of sudden. Other things are more important for beginners to learn.
Unfortunately that a big problem with tekken, beginners think that learning some advanced things as necessary to play the game at a decent level, and even worse, they go online and get the impression that these things are fundamental and take priority to learning them.
Don't be fooled, kbd isn't necessary to learn at the beginning, and you should start learning it when you reach rank 20 online.
@@mmmk6322 While I do appreciate the advice the sheer fact that you're providing an alternative for movement - a sequence instead of an input - kinda proves my point. This conversation simply wouldn't happen in other fighting games and it frankly shouldn't.
Imagine being in the 1800's and be like YOOOO dribbling is OD!
them mfs would lose they minds elon gotta pass me a time machine tesla i wanna cross over 1800's mf's real quick 😂
its been 5 months
They even named a country after it hotdamn
Koreans are the best in tekken for a long time and now going toe to toe with Pakistan
"Oh boy, time to binge Core-A until I decide to go to bed because he uploaded!"
"Tekken is trash and dumb to smoke", Aris probably 2020
Hey, alright.
Armenian backdash hmm?
"East coast?"
atpSuspect
Stoners
“Hand gymnastics to do basic movement”
SSB Melee: 🙈
wavedashing isnt that hard
@@reeseon10 not on its own, but being able to move smoothly while executing what you want is relatively hard for new players. And some old players...
@@reeseon10 wavedashing is only a portion of what is basic movement in competitive melee, although by far the most famous. L-cancelling, wavelanding, jump heights, tilt vs smash inputs, DI & SDI (debatabely not movement but without these you won't last with experienced players), SHFFLing, and I'm sure other tech I'm forgetting is all pretty much required to have ok control of your movement, before character specific movement is then taken into play as well (think ledgedashes/waveshines/moonwalk etc).
For most people, just L-cancelling consistently is a significant challenge, and tilt vs smash inputs as well. So the amount of time for most people to get competent enough at movement to play competitively and have any chance of not being steamrolled is a huge barrier to entry, and movement alone will not bring you up to the competitive skill floor- you need to get there with movement & then start applying it in neutral, advantage, disadvantage, and make it work with your character's moves. All together that's a very high skill floor compared to many past times. Oh, and it's all happening at a way faster pace than most people ever play games.
Of course all this doesn't mean Melee is bad or whatnot, it's a game like any other we play at the end of the day. This one just requires a massive dedication competitively, and then mix that with the communities you find in any group of people who all love one thing, and it can get toxic for many.
So yeah, Melee's movement standards competitively are pretty bonkers for most people. So is running a marathon, though.
@@KennyCnotG i barely read this but based off the first bit, i agree i just assumed he was referring to specifically wavedashing
@@Lumpycpu true
Come back, my boy. ;_;
Just here to get versed on Tekken inputs before Kazuya releases :)
i miss you :(((
You Tekken players are lucky you guys get to land this input in rollback.
Smash players though. :(
Tekken don't got rollback lol
@@michaelaeschbacher4648 I'm talking about 7.
@@ivrydice0954 Yea me too
@@michaelaeschbacher4648 Tekken 7 may have bad rollback but I checked and it's still rollback.
@@ivrydice0954 I think you're right, it really ain't what people are asking for when they want "rollback" though. It's like saying your game runs at 60 fps but it's so badly optimized that it constantly goes to 25. You might as well cap it at 30 and not much would change
Guess I'm the only one that wanted to see busted NBA JAM movement exploits.
NBA Jam's exploit was that if you were ahead, goal tending was a viable way to play defense. At worse you only surrender 2 points and if your team can shoot the 3ball as well or you get the 'he's on fire buff', you have control of the game.
Yoooooooo!
I just realised that your channel name is Core-A Gaming because it sounds like Kore-a Gaming.
Like, Yooooooooooooo!!!
Wait.
"Core-A Gaming....??"
Kore-A..
Korea....
You live in Korea...
KOREA GAMING!
I see you!
Neat
No amount of legacy or complexity should ever justify a game having shitty movement controls.
That was a great piece of content. You showed good examples of movements to distinguish the differences between fighting games, gave a great parallel with Basketball to contextualize the impact and relevancy of the technique and gave us a free history lesson at the same time. Kept the video from having a ridiculous runtime and even put the sponsored ad at the end. I'll be looking forward to your next videos, keep it up!
People sholdn't be forced to learn body gymnastics to walk backwards in basketball
Come Back!!!!!!
Please come back :(
After having practiced it, KBD also seems like an exploit to get carpal tunnel faster.
HEAVILY UNDERRATED COMMENT JESUS! 😂☠️
I don't really buy the basketball example as a good argument for KBD not being an exploit. Dribbling is a well understood rule for the game now. KBD is an unintuitive exploit used by try-hards to have an advantage. And the FGC continues to wonder why no one plays fighting games.
The reason why "no one plays fighting games" is because people like winning to much and avoid putting in effort and losing. The souls games are similar to fighting games where it's all trial and error and improvement. That turns people off. It's not the advanced mechanics that draw people off.
Here from Jeenine
"Melee: A game where the movement uniquely revolves around wavedashing and L-canceling" Actually L-canceling isn't a movement technique, just an obscure mechanic of an old game. The sentence would flow better if it said "Melee: A game where the movement uniquely revolves around wavedashing and dash-dancing".
Arguably you could call it a part of movement, since it allows you to get out of an animation and begin moving sooner
Since Smash is a platform fighter/brawler, I'd say the ability to reduce recovery frames of aerial attacks opens up a lot of movement opportunities for players. It is also why quite a few melee veterans will say stuff like "You have to truly commit to every move you do in Smash Ultimate," as the choice of using evasive options upon a successful L-cancel is taken away.
Maybe he meant ledge cancel but wrote down L-cancel by accident.
Every other fighting game: Back back, back back, back back
Tekken: Back back, down back, neutral, back, down back, neutral, back...
I feel like the well is poisoned when criticizing advanced techniques because the response is always "git gud". One can understand the possible benefits of an emergent gameplay technique and still feel that the technique in question is worse for the game. As a community we need to talk in terms of benefits and downsides of these techniques and assume that critics have an understanding beyond "not intended = bad".
I feel like the Korean Backdash is one of those moves that is too taxing on certain people's fingers so the game's higher tier play is reserved for those who are mechanically able to do this move consistently over long periods of time. Age of Empires 2 has a tactic called Quickwalling which is advanced but anyone can learn it with simple hotkey presses, to the point where even a disabled person reached a higher than average ELO in ranked. I think that's the very valid argument against tekken's backdash. Comparing it to basketball where just about anyone can dribble is weird. Fun fact at least!
@@sarahd2623 Just about anyone can KBD in Tekken. If you practice it.
@@sarahd2623 "Just about anyone" if they have the physical condition for it, sure, same as Tekken, its not at all a faulty comparison
those who not to don't see eye to eye basically all fighting game players given on what they play to what's foreign to them (2D players, 3D players Anime players, Smash to those still playing DOA 6 haha I kid on the last one kinda) then the vet's Vs those new cause they saw a video on youtube or a Vet streaming or stumbled onto old comp footage to are confused of the wizardry their seeing.
To differences, in 2D games compared to 3D and anime FG's got diff things to kinda can the 2D game things in Tekken now adding in foreign things in what ain't had them but in this case the nitty gritty "hidden" techniques which only "hardcore" players knew of many gave long and stressing "how to KBD" TLDR's to new players and those that ask "what's that movement thing" and get essays on how to do it they not hit the level of play to the mindset of 300+ *insert FG here* thinking the mind games, setup's, meta's and so on.
at 1st all will think normal fighting game things are "broken" and as I said those not from x type of FG will say a normal type of actually intended mechanic is "cheating" or broken when it's not then the non intended "hidden" stuff which are common knowledge but some got barriers of timing windows which turn away many but the lab monsters got them down more them average but even them can't nail it all the time *it be like that* the journey is fun to some too.
Best example would be k-style in GunZ. People perform a lot of animation cancels for optimal damage, defense and snappy movement. Largely taxing in the hands over long periods and it takes out a lot of strategy when it's effectively spamming macros till something hits. It even came to a point where people using automatics as intended were looked down upon.
Sweet music for the KBD explanation. There's an epic, old-school flash animation fight between Ken and Raiden with the same music. Brought back memories haha
getting ready for Kazuya in smash...needed to learn how to do this lol
I had no idea about the Yale dribbling "scandal" when it came to basketball. The fact that you were able to reference it to how KBD fits and affects Tekken is pretty remarkable.
Where is core a gaming
This was a fire video! Very informative and tied into things I wasn’t expecting, and really changed my perspective on movement in games in general!
finally, a upload yay
can't rush quality.
Never played tekken in my life and this is the coolest shit I've ever seen.
It’s not talked about as much but dash dancing in melee is also a main difference from other smash games. It makes the gameplay rely on dashing and precise and nuanced spacing. The turn around animation is 1 frame so you can bait and draw attacks and manipulate space in a way that isn’t present in other smash titles. Add wavedashing and a world of feints and baits open up and make the game enjoyable and replayable for years.
Backdash ~ Sidestep ~ backdash, now even you at home can backdash cancel.
No posts for a while now, everything ok bro?
Dude I have an orange Tabby too! His name is Nacho and he’s mah boy! Great video as always. Thank you. The Korean backdash is similar to a short jazz phrase
Korean backdash must be one of the shitiest mechanics of movement, the comment is right about that, but in my opinion, if you want to conserve this mechanic at least Namco needs to make the korean backdash more rewarding, instead of making a baby step at least increase the backdash gap, because in the hands of beginners is useless and frustrating.
Learning this cool shit for when Kazuya comes out in smash. Thanks for the basketball lesson too, very neat.
Another irl example of unintended techinques in a game is baseball. For whatever reason, there was a point in the games history where stealing bases wasn't a thing. But that changed once a team from Pittsburgh decided that there was nothing in the rule book explicitly banning the practice, so they took advantage. People didnt like the new techinique, giving it the name of a stolen base (implying it wasnt won by legetimate means) and branding the team from Pittsburgh as the Pirates. The name stuck :)
couldn't we just have better and faster movement at this point though? let us zoom around like Pokken? It would match the tone of the story cutscenes at least, always thought there was a dissonance between how the game plays and how it portrays itself
Tekken with a lot more movement would be a very different game.
Nope it should stay like it is
I can't believe it took me so many years to realize that the Core-A also stands for Korea
The only way the "banning dribbling" metaphor works would be if they removed KBD and replaced it with nothing. But would letting the player normally cancel backdash into backdash make the game less enjoyable? The only complaint would likely be from players salty that they spent the time to practice the traditional input.
To me, this is like if basketball had a rule that you were only allowed to dribble if you were walking on your heels at the same time. Locking a full speed backdash behind a weird input exploit seems like the actual restrictive rule.
Right. If people liked the faster movement just let players backlash multiple times or increase the backwards movement speed. Another difference is that dribbling is well understood. People don't know it's "passing to yourself", they just think it's a rule of the game to move and provide opportunities for the opposing team to steal the ball from you.
Great video, I wish there was a little bit more emphasis on being able to block while backdashing in Tekken. Tekken is only a fighting game where backdashing is completely safe and non-committal as you can cancel it before the end of the backdash.
I believe expanding on KBD alternatives, like backdash canceling (BD>SS>BD), and it's utility of additionally moving you away from the wall, are extremely helpful.
My personal stance on techniques like this is all it does is add an unnecessary filter and usually increases hand problems in pro play.
It's not really a skill as much as a required habit to compete with anyone else who bothered to learn it, with the actual skill only coming from being able to do it, with no real impact on anything else, unlike wavedashing.
I feel similarly about L Canceling in smash bros, which is also an intended mechanic which does nothing bit add a filter and limit the game to those who don't have time to practice it.
I dunno if I agree with the logic here. Emergent gameplay is great and all, but, and disclaimer that I don't play Tekken so I don't have much understanding of the nuance... I dunno man that just looks kinda fucked up? Maybe it's not as big a deal as it looks from this perspective but I don't think basic movement should be a super difficult technical task. If some new really tough tech was found in one of the games I play that you basically had to learn in order to compete, I wouldn't be too happy about that... and of course that's not even getting into the issue of the major advantages this puts on certain kinds of controllers over others (but that's a whole other cam of worms)