Tech Talk: Real Men Don‘t Wear Helmets!!! My real concerns about harnesses and head protection.
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 20 май 2020
- It’s almost daily that you guys get on me for not wearing a helmet and harnesses on the track During TF. Join me as I dive deeper into the concerns and complications of wearing helmets and harnesses during TF on the Nürburgring!
Beat: DIABLO’ by UK artist A.M. SNiPER
Follow us on Instagram:
Robert - robert_mitchell
Tom - tomstamp
Misha - mgcharoudin
Apex - apexnuerburg 
Авто/Мото
![MAF Teeski - Whole Thing (feat. VonOff1700) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SHWEj-ndz6g/mqdefault.jpg)
Source: I have worked for a global car OEM in the restraints safety department.
**TL;DR**
My recommendation if a car is to be used at high speed frequently, say on a race track, STRONGLY consider installing a roll cage, bucket seats, a well-mounted race harness, and use a proper sized helmet AND HANS device. If you can't use all of the above, I would hesitate to recommend any incomplete combination of them. Rather, simply using the stock three point harness is likely to be safer. When you're driving on the road, only use the stock safety system of your car.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the stock 3-point harness in vehicles function. They do not arrest your body and have it 'rotate'. The goal of any road restraint system is to extend the duration of a crash as long as possible, therefore reducing the acceleration experienced by the body.
Modern three point harnesses work in the following manner for a frontal collision:
1. A pyrotechnic retractor will tension the seat belt (webbing) in a crash, snugging it up against the occupant's body before the crash impulse reaches the cabin
2. The occupant's body begins loading the webbing until the load limit is reached
3. At the load limit, the spindle that the webbing is wrapped around will begin deforming under the force of the occupant pulling on the belt, allowing the webbing to play out and the occupant to move forward, while still applying a constant force to the occupant's chest without arresting them fully (this reduces the acceleration, or G's experienced)
4. The occupant will impact the deployed airbags, which will decelerate them further as gas is slowly expelled from the inflated air bags.
The above is designed to minimize chances of thoracic, head, and spinal injuries based on the most common types of accidents seen on the road (
Thank you!
@Jonathan Hiener Thank you very much for the explanation and of course to @Robert Mitchell for the concern explained in the video. For next track days, I'll must have this in mind.
Thanks for the knowledge! Really interesting to read from someone with such a good understanding of crash safety.
What a great informed response. Thank you. Did the OEM you work ever release any road cars with standard fit harnesses and no seat belts? There must be lots of "hardcore" cars sold in this way - is the manufacturer exposing itself to legal risk?
Thank you!
I’ve just made a choice. I won’t use a harness and helmet again without the HANS. Great video Rob!
AutoFabb make sure to do some more research too Ausland back up the decision. There are lots of points to consider. Like being in a caged car! Then I do hamlet and Hans as a strike to the cage is more likely to be deadly
Robert Mitchell Yes. Fullcaged car is one thing, mine does not have that. But you only have one neck in this life. Can’t buy a new one.
Yes but the problem is that not many cars have full harnesses. Also it shows how dangerous road cars with harnesses can be as the head may not even reach the airbag.
That is not a sound choice my friend. Robert has a very good point, but there is so much more to it than just a neck extension. If you can wear your HANS, do so, but to run without a helmet when asked to wear a harness, is worse. Cages, debris, chemicals, fires, and all the rest of it. Yes an unlucky shunt can and will kill you, it happened at Le Mans with Allan Simmonsen a few years ago, but you need to be VERY unlucky even without a HANS for that to happen.
@@RobertMitchell Is it legal to drive without helmet at the Nurburgring?
I can see this channel going big in the future from all of that technical information and the time spent to put out this content
Thank you so much for that effort and I hope you the best
mohamed Bassiouni Thank you for the support!
in 2013 a good friend of mine convinced me to that to drive on the track "lapping" with a six point harness and a helmet was more dangerous than your #2 ; a two point harness with helmet. He convinced me to use a Hans device with the six point and helmet. One summer day while lapping at out super track in Mont Tremblant Quebec Can. my friend who was using a racing seat with a six point, Hans and helmet lost control of his recent 911 GT3 went off track and hit a barrier on at a + -30 degree angle with the front of the car. The side angle of the shock caused his neck to snap side ways and he broke his neck and died on the way to the hospital. The hans did not protect him; it is good for a frontal straight hit; it does not protect you on a lateral hit that causes your head to snap sideways. The solution seems to be a six point with a helmet plus hans and a racing seat with side bolsters for head protection that they use in NASCAR. I am returning to the track this year after a 7 year absence. i will be driving my stock GT3 Rs with a regular seat belt and a helmet. I believe that with this set up with the standard Porsche air bags in the steering and seats together with the body movement that the regular seat belt allows is the best option after the Nascar type seat, six point hans and helmet.
Try to get a lighter helmet too.
I wonder why the nascar style seat isnt used in other motorsports
@@barryallencoffee One issue may be visibility, nascars don't use side mirrors as well in nascar you rarely have sharp turns where drivers would be turning their heads/looking in front. The nascar seats offer very very little side visibility which works in nascar but not in other series.
Imma call BS that’s definitely something that you could find on the Internet or locals would know. I live close to the Nürburgring and that story is 100% made up
@@akiimo389 Pretty sure that Mont Tremblant in Quebec, Canada is not anywhere near the Nurburgring. Learn to comprehend what you read first maybe? www.comscc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4387
You had a lot of things right, however: ONLY use a 6 point if you have all of these things listed: A FULL roll cage (the one you have is not sufficient), a HANS device, and a helmet. The problem with using the harness, HANS and helmet (even if it was allowed), is that if the car rolls, and the roof gets a hard impact, you will be stuck in your locked in position and your head/body will be crushed. With a 3 point your head/body is more free to move around.
The safest solution with no roll cage, is a normal 3 point with or without a helmet. The ONLY safe solution with a 6 point is full out, like mentioned above. Do NOT use a harness unless all these conditions are met.
Correct. Scenario 3 or 4 are inherently unsafe. Scenario 5 is not legal during TF.
Pretty sure he knows what he's doing
What would you suggest with most of us running a half cage?
Interesting, I'd have thought the rear cage would have been sufficient to prevent roof crumple around your head in more or less every roll over situation?
This just isn't true. It's a brand new Porsche, not a tin can from the 90s. Doesn't matter how fast you're going, that roof isn't going anywhere.
When I started racing (autocross, then track days, and eventually time attack) I did it with just a helmet and the OEM 3-point. I wanted harnesses but quickly learned it's a very complex, and expensive, thing to do right. Aside from neck injuries there's the risk of a rollover causing the roof to cave in, crushing your neck and spine if you're harnessed but dont have a cage.
I went the way of getting race seats first, Sparco containment seats with the head restraints. I raced for two years in those with a helmet and the 3-point belts. Even with OEM belts it makes a world of difference. I went from being so tired after a track day I'd pass out by 7PM to being wide awake at 10pm, just from not having to brace myself through the corners all day. I have a HANS but havent had a cage built yet, so no harnesses either. I'm taking a break from cars for a while to focus on other stuff but when I get back to it the first priority is a custom cage, then Schroth 6-points.
This is the order I tell people to do it when they mention harnesses: helmet with HANS anchors, race seat, minimum 4-point roll bar (no harness bars), HANS, 6-point harnesses (4-point ASM if you absolutely must but I'd always go 6 personally. Never 5, unless you dont care about your fun bits). And never use harnesses without a HANS even on the street, a small impact can ruin your life or kill you. Definitely not as dangerous as helmet with no HANS, but imo not worth the risk. Also never ride in a caged car without a helmet, again just not worth the risk imo regardless of padding, speed, etc.
I am a licensed racer that frequently does track days as well as competition racing and I have done extensive research on this subject, so here are my thoughts:
First, I think it is helpful to understand why extra safety systems are needed for high-performance driving. Car manufacturers (and government regulators) when designing (and regulating the design of) cars for the street do not anticipate really high g-forces in an accident. They figure that you will not be doing high-performance driving on the street, and if you get into an accident, you will likely apply the brakes, take evasive action, etc, so you will, most times, only hit, or glance off of, something at lower speeds (like 35MPH, or 60 KPH). Because of this, they only design (and require) safety systems (like seat belts, etc.) for impacts at those kinds of speeds.
This is why, when engaging in high-performance driving, you should use better safety systems.
-The safest is a 6-point harness (and seat that fits correctly, and accommodates correct harness geometry) with a helmet and HANS, BUT preferably with a roll bar. In this scenario, you are firmly held in the seat by the harness (lap and shoulder belts), you are protected from sliding under the harness and injuring your lower back (sub-belts), you are protected from breaking your neck (HANS), and your head (and neck again) are protected from injury with the helmet and roll bar. Unfortunately, I have “used” this exact system when I hit the wall at a diagonal (right-front impact) during practice before a race, and I walked away with only 2 broken ribs. If I had a seat that fit correctly-with no side-to-side movement-I’m sure I would have walked away completely unscathed. I would not have had the incident at all if one of my suspension components did not break mid-corner 🤷♂️
-Safe in almost every situation is the same as the previous except with no roll bar. Without a roll bar, this scenario puts you at significant risk of injury in a rollover. This is because, if the roof crushes in, and you are held firmly in-place by the harness, you have no way to move to the side and prevent the roof from crushing your head. Even though you are wearing a helmet, you will likely injure your neck. This is why you should not wear a 4- 5- or 6-point harness without a HANS, helmet, and roll bar.
-Driving with a harness: If you are pushing the limits (driving fast, etc) use a 6-point harness (5-point is OK for women, but not recommended for guys 😉). A 4-point harness does not protect you from sliding under the lap belts and injuring your lower back. It is best to only use a harness if you have a roll bar (as pointed out previously), a helmet, and a HANS. The reason for the HANS is that in an incident, a harness holds you in tight, so a HANS is needed to keep you from breaking your neck from the weight of your own head...and a HANS needs to attach to your head in some way to work (which is another reason for the helmet).
-Driving on the track or road at a moderate pace (not pushing): I believe a regular 3-point seatbelt with no helmet is totally reasonable, considering the decreased risk of really high forces (especially if you have an airbag). Wearing a helmet is still preferred, if possible, and of course course, the safest is still a 6-point harness with correct seat, a helmet, HANS, and roll bar.
981porsche Thank you for such a thoughtful reply! Hopefully many more read this and take it all into consideration as well
In the last scenario, I would want to add, wear an lightweight open face multisport/ski/mtb helmet, around 0,5kg. I see many that buy a cheap and very heavy motorcycle visor helmets for occasional track use, several kg - bad idea...
Just a question, it might be silly, but just an idea (I also have no experience with harnesses so I'm not sure if the locking mechanism would allow this). If you didn't have a HANS device and you were to use a helmet and you wanted to push, would it be possible for on a 6 point harness, use all of the belts apart from from the one side chest belt, essentially to simulate the 3 points standard belt but much stronger than the standard 3 point harness? To essentially simulate the rotating motion of the body to help prevent the whole chest from being completely restrained and allowing movement for the head to move forward into the airbag. This I feel would work in a forward crash but I'm not sure how well this would work in a crash at an angle and such. Thanks for the response in advance.
@@RobertMitchell I use to run 6 point belts in my road car and after a long chat with the Recaro Rep I removed them, as the point I hadn't considered was in most GT race cars / prototypes the drivers have seats with head protection built into limit the side to side motion of the head in the event of an accident as Hans only protects against forward motion. More recently when I was helping my father in law with his classic race car hes now runs a Simpson Hybrid Pro since he races in open top (Morgan +8).
What are you thoughts on the schroth 4 pt harness with the anti submarine feature build in for a car with no cage.
I used to work in automobile racing safety. I’ve looked at all of these in the past. For your car’s safety equipment, track rules, and your safety equipment: I’d choose 1. Porsche went through a lot of engineering to make that car safe for road use, trust that engineering. Choice 2 is also good.
in 2008 I had an accident during TF in a Caterham at the Ring. My passenger and I were wearing helmets and three point harnesses but the close proximity of myself and passenger meant we hit our helmets together. I had a better helmet and had a small hole made in it but my passenger with a poorer helmet had a larger hole and he suffered a brain haemorrhage and brain damage. Don't drive a Caterham or similar car with roll bar and close proximity of passenger without helmets, if we had hit our heads together without them we would both be dead.
So glad you’re okay and a good
Example of why not to not get cheap safety gear)
Ouch, I hope your friend recovered and is ok
Absolutely amazing informative content Robert. You are a pleasure to listen to. I really enjoy your videos. Its clear you really love what you do and you have the knowledge which shows your passion for all levels of cars
Locally, we can’t even use Harness without a HANS device. They won’t allow us on track.
RLX_5.56 I think that is a very good solution!
Robert Mitchell I’m so glad you did this video. My own ignorance, I have only been track driving for a a few years and
This Hans rule is pretty new. I thought that was just common sense. Thanks Robert!
Robert, your channel is a hidden trove of useful information for motorsports enthusiasts and performance driving. Keep up the great content!
Well thank you very much!!
Very interesting analysis! Having done Car Accident reconstruction myself, I can add that all the things I heard you say were reasonable. However, you were focussing on frontal collisions, as opposed to a side collision which often occurs when sliding off the track, unless your car understeers a lot 😉!
Nice topic, it actually made me worried... I track my car with harness bar, 4 point harnesses (FIA approved without AST) and helmet without HANS configuration, so it seems like I ticked off all the no no boxes:/ Thing I do not understand is why are track dedicated cars like Megane R26R or XBOW sold from factory with 4 point harness? Mind that Renault was first ever manufacturer to achieve 5 star Euro NCAP result (not with R26R though) so they know what they are doing... Another hazard to consider is hooking up 4 or 6 point harnesses with reclining half-bucket seats for which some manufacturers suggest that it is ok. Yes, I ticked that box as well...
Keep up with the good work Robert, all the best!
Awesome .. Awesome video. Finally someone took the time to do this. Been telling people for years to stop wearing harness's on the street.
A couple of years ago the BMW Schools in USA stopped using helmets. The reason was that there is no airbag designed to work with a helmet. It is important to remember not only the steering wheel airbag but the side curtain. Apparently there was a lot of discussion with engineers and eventually they determined it was safer to go without helmets.
Very interesting, I’m going to try and read up on this
Every scientific paper I have ever read on this subject, all two of them, says wearing as normal seat belt (3 point) and relying on the vehicle's airbags to prevent head injuries is by far the safest in a situation where you cannot wear a HANS Device.
The TLDR of it is that if you cannot wear a HANS, all a 4+ point harness will do is isolate your neck to the forces being applied to your body from the impact. Like you said- the reason 3 points have been standard for so long is because they are the safest and most secure you can be without being fully kitted to go racing.
Good info. I’ve been looking up articles to help make some decisions myself
This is a really good and informative video! Good Job, Robert and keep up the good work! Also, the GT2RS MR looks amazing!
I appreciate and respect the honesty and transparency you display in your videos.
The GT2 looks so good
This is probably one of the most important videos out there for anybody who likes cars. I had thought about this a lot in the past and you have now confirmed my ideas. Misha brought me here, you made me stay. Keep going man, that is quality content. I hope I can go from Spain to the Nurburgring in the not too distant future, rent on of your cheaper cars, go for a lap with 3 point harness and helmet and ask for a picture.
thank you for the kind words! I hope to keep up with some good conversation points.
Each option explained makes a lot clear. Thanks for this Robert.
After many years of racing and many years of racing, I can without the shadow of a doubt say that the helmet is always my choice - no matter if I have 3, 4, 5 or 6 points. I have been in many stuffs and crashes in everything from exotics to open wheel single seaters, and a helmet is why I'm all alive. Yes, you are somewhat correct about the neck extension, but that takes a lot more force than something coming through the window, a roof being pushed in, and what else have you. Yes, I prefer my HANS, and I wear it when I can, but if a track requires harnesses but no HANS, I'm choosing that with confidence. My head has hit so many things that would have killed me had I not worn a helmet. On normal trackdays etc. I feel perfectly fine in a three point harness, and most often run that, but if the track asks me to use a harness if it's there, I don't discard the helmet. I have seen people get their head impaled by large shards of class, wood, and other debris because they did not wear a helmet. I fully understand your concern about the extension, but don't forget that for many years we raced without a HANS, and helmets still saved lives. You will need an insanely massive shunt for a helmet to be a problem, especially in modern cars with crumple zones. Wear a helmet because it will more often than not, save you.
A hit to the head is a sure issue as you say and that’s why I mention that it’s a balance that you need to think about. How many crashes you been in?!?
Robert, thanks for having me in the video at 0:56 :-) As always, very good content presented in a very understandable way, even for non native speakers. I took some laps on the ring last summer, together with my daughter. I also had made up my mind in regards to what kind of safety equipment would make sense in what combination. Finally we went for scenario 2: 3 point and helmets, which seems the best compromise in case you can't go with the "full package". The helmets not only to protect our heads from hitting parts of the car in case of a crash but from protecting our heads if they would hit together on a side impact, as example. Anyways, I enjoy your channel; keep up the good work, have a nice Christmas and see you at the Ring 2021!
Awesome explanation, Robert!
For me the first and second option (3 point harness) OR the last option (helmet on and Hans)
Totally understand your point! Have same concerns about my neck when I'm lying in my bed and choosing pillows.
Kápsozta Töltött I wake up w a bit of neck tension too from pillows. Tough isn’t it?!
As someone who races with a hans I agree with your vid completely, one of the other big vices of wearing a hans is that you can't look to see if the track is clear if you spin and end up at the wrong angle across the track, we have seen over the years many stupid preventable accidents because you literally cannot look to see properly if the coast is clear before moving .
Just to add one further thing.....
I was a passenger in a Golf on a trackday , 3 point and a helmet.....typical Golf brake problems with overheating the back end locked up and sent us spearing into ploughed field stage left, we hit it at maybe 60mph kinda sideways and tyres dug in and flipped us into a massive roll 3 times, destroyed the roof of the car really badly, was a standard car no cage etc, got out with no injuries except being a little battered and bruised, without the helmet I feel I would have had at least some kind of head injury tho.
Wow, that was an excellent and very thorough rundown on the different scenarios of safety equipment and their affects during an accident. The helmet weight and neck extension are two things I've never really put much thought into before.
Fantastic Video. And the discussion in the comment section is fantastic. I havent done track days in a while but plan to go back hopefully next year. Will be reading and re-reading these comments!
You’re correct. The comment section is tops here!!!
Thanks, Robert. You did very well describing and showing with examples big issues of partial safety system mix.
So in hindsight option 2 is the safest. I like the way harnesses hold you in the seat and stop you moving though, when not in harnesses I find myself using energy to brace myself when braking and cornering. All food for thought though for my next track day
This was unexpected, but a very welcome video. I love how much you point out safety in your videos, a very underlooked category in car culture, I think. As for the best setup: Setup 5 is the only way to actually push a car to its limit on a track. Trackdays and TF, I think setup 2 should be good enough. A category you didn't touch, but is important to me is rally trails, where I honestly don't feel safe without at least a 5-point harness and a full cage, because the greatest risk is often rolling over, in which scenario a 3-point is not quite optimal.
Hello 'Robert', you explain a number of options very well, for me option 2 would seem the best as long as your helmet does not hit the roof before the airbag has time to deploy as that would cause massive pressure in depressing the head into the spine !!! Regards, RichardA
Very informative! Great Video.
Use a neck brace like in karting or motocross. This will prevent your neck to move too far forward while allowing you to turn your head to the sides.
I've never questioned your judgement but your explanation echoes my own sentiment. You've got to find the best balance between safely and practical ergonomics that suits you.
Great video!
subliminalvibes Yes, you have to find a balance and sometimes it’s very tricky to nail down
Note to self from what I took from the video and some very useful comments:
Medium safety: 3-point belt with / without helmet depending on how well the car protects you with airbags and such
Maximum safety: 4/6-point harness + helmet + HANS device + rollcage
Serious protection against side impacts in any case: side airbags or bucket seat with wings around helmet (as in Nascar)
In terms of the effects: allow movement of upper body AND head - OR - immobilize upper body AND head AND roof (with rollcage).
In general: ride safe or ride home. There are no shortcuts or off-days to your safety.
Very good advice that most drivers don't know! If using 3 point harness wear a half size helmet for lightness, otherwise if you use the 6 point go with full helmet and Hans device.
Never thought about this issue so much in detail. But after you explained it so smart, i go for solution 2. Thanks for the video!!
And another great video, Rob, thanks for it! Two thoughts:
1) The Pista which you & I have configured with the optional 4-point harness is a safety problem on the road when not used on track with helmet & HANS! Porsche does it better by leaving the 3-point harness for road driving when you order the 6-point harness.
2) I had a bad frontal crash at Pflanzgarten 2 in 2013 in a 997.2 GT3 during TF and I now realize even more after seeing your video how lucky I was not to get injured since I was driving with 6-point harness + helmet but no HANS due to TF regulation...
"The Exige Cup 430 & Pista guy" (Damien)
Totally agree with all of this Robert.
Great vid. Good explanations.
I assume the curtain airbags would deploy as well preventing your head from hitting the pillars. If that's the case, scenario one would seem the safest because your neck and torso are not held tightly and can move and the airbags will cushion you from the impacts. With scenario two, the helmet can provide cushioning from the airbags, i am told they are pretty violent themselves. Scenario one seems safest to me. How many airbags in total does the GT2RS has ? I assume not less then 8 ?
When they ask me "should i wear a helmet/full leather suit/whatever, I answer this: "nobody has ever regreted wearing safety gear, quite a lot have regreted not wearing"
Good call 😌
Great information, things that I have never thought before, thank you so much Robert!!!
Great video. Please keep bringing the community in depth videos of aspects amongst racing. Thank you
Thanks for the insight Robert. Surprising to learn that TF doesn't allow Hans device! I had a side impact with the tire barrier at 60mph without Hans in a low spec race(Honda Fit Cup), and it was agonizing, half of my body felt so numb which scared me quite a lot. After that, I never drive/race on track without a Hans.
So glad to hear it wasn’t more complicated than you describe here. So scared of that odd impact !!!!!!
You sir, just got yourself a new subscriber.
Bravo! Had never thought of this before and it was so brilliantly explained, as you usually do.
Next time I come to the ring I will surely visit you guys :)
One of the best videos I have watched. That just makes things easy to understand and think about 👍
Great to hear! I wondered how it would go on RUclips w such a topic
I’ve been tracking for a few years now including spending a lot of time with professionals at the Porsche track experience in Alabama. What you noted is pretty much on par from what I’ve been told. If you are doing “back road” driving on a track, 3 point and helmet is safe. If pushing harder, nothing safer than a 6 point with helmet+HANS. Cheers. And keep the good stuff coming.
Excellent analysis. Personally I feel a HANS is a necessity when a harness setup is employed, for the reasons you've provided. Having had a big shunt last year on the road, I can vouch for scenario 1 being fine for driver safety as long as there's no roll over. On a track I just feel more comfortable with a helmet on at all times, however we don't have any situations like TF where you have so many cars and bikes on track at the same time with different objectives in mind. I can understand why a HANS is not allowed for TF, specifically for that reason, you need full range of motion and abilities to check blind spots etc due to the amount of traffic.
Robert, Interesting discussion and some salient points.
Perhaps there’s a sixth option. If you intend to drive at your own or your cars limit and have potential to hit the barrier at 90 degrees (head on) stopping from high speed to zero in zero inches, a correctly adjusted harness with a bmx / mountain bike / skiing style helmet and disconnected front airbags systems?
In terms of your suggestions:-
1. Must say I’ve not noticed EuroNcap impacts with the dummies rotating within the seat belt and believe dummies are marked with liquid marker paint to ensure that correct impact with airbags and cushion are made and indeed control the facial interaction via the airbag deflation vent holes which are at the edges so the face or indeed helmet is captured in the centre
2. Harnesses have been used in motorsport for decades since the saloon car era, the point with harnesses is that you shouldn’t be able to reach the cars interior so lightweight helmets should be the priority over helmets used in open seat racers or in motorcycling where external ground contact can be made.
3. Cars are not engineered to crash at high speeds, euroNcap is a maximum of 40mph which is why roadside crash barriers deflect and redirect cars and not stop them dead.
Airbags are commonly acronymed as SRS (Secondary Restraint Systems) and were introduced in the USA for drivers or passengers not wearing seatbelts so not needed when a harness is worn and as far as I am aware, never used in rallying or motorsport. It is probably a condition for the safety of the track marshals that they aren’t fitted in race cars in case they go off whilst a driver is being rescued?
Phil.
I'm too busy commenting comments that I don't actually wrote: hey Robert, nice vid and very good topic!
Haha. ! Thank you:-)
don’t actually wrote? do you even engrish?
I agree. This is the reason why I still haven't put harnesses in my car. As long as I'm primarily driving TF and can't go all the way with the safety measures, I'd rather wear 3-point and helmet (or no helmet even, depending on driving and conditions).
Makes a lot of sense. I know of two rally competitors who are no longer with us, one (someone I knew from my home town) who failed to secure his helmet straps at the stage start, in the crash his helmet came off and his head impacted the roll cage. On the other occasion a driver lost his life when in a multiple roll his neck was broken by the weight of his helmet. Both these 'events' are from the mid and late 1980s in the days before air bags and in cars that were built to clubman (road car) regulations (group N). I attended another accident on a rally, where the co driver wasn't breathing, she had swallowed her tongue. Fortunately she was wearing an open face helmet, so the rescue crew could 'see' the problem and were able to clear her airway immediately. I don't know if that would have happened with a full face helmet. For pro racing drivers whose muscles are trained to wear a heavy helmet the dangers are less. As a clubman who wore a helmet once a month at the most, I can tell you my neck muscles suffered for days afterward an event. Helmets cannot be an answer on their own.
Thank you for starting a good open discussion on this topic
you are absolutely right with everything you say, if you cant wear a hans, then helmet and harness are a no go. airbag is your best friend when you cant have those.
After seeing this, my opinions became following: It totally makes sense to pick either 1 or 2 depending on the chosen car to TF, and then driving safe (the most important safety measure). TF is not the place to reach for limits or take risks, and those scenarios 1 and 2 are likely to save you if there appears a surprising event that cannot be avoided. Then there is scenario 5 which is the best, and to be used when ever allowed and there is a chance to drive closer to the limit. I totally see why having harnesses and no Hans (scenarios 3 and 4) can be very bad - it is nice to have that option though for those with a tracktool that does not have airbags and other modern road car safety things.
Very good content, I'm extremely impressed by this video and the depth of your thought into this. I now understand how a three point harness combined with a airbag is actually pretty damn good
If that is the best option, I find it scary with all the people removing the airbag and installing a momo wheel and a quick release just because it looks cool.
Thomas George Yes, that is absolutely horrifying
@@seanm.collins9888 ...many times they have harnesses too, to fill those Recaro/Bride holes for street cred, so they won't reach that steering wheel but may end up worse anyway.
Great video! I don’t do any track stuff really so never wear a helmet in my car but I bet that’s made a lot of people stop and think.
Best purpose for a helmet in a racecar is to protect your head from roll bars, which are the best way to protect yourself from intrusion of things outside of the car and prevent the car from crushing you inside of it.
Obviously as impact speeds increase, the ability of an OEM style 3 point harness to gently decelerate you safely diminishes, and it quickly becomes more important to simply control where your body is able to go to prevent worse injuries.
At every step, you're increasing survivability of harder impacts, but also increasing potential for non life threatening injury.
I think it just depends on how fast you think you'll hit something. But without a roll cage, I would probably run a helmet and a 3 point harness. With a roll cage, I would run 5-6 point with helmet every time.
100%. Helmet is a must w cage and the speed you intend to drive helps determine the rest
I just learned SO MUCH from this video, thank you!
Very informative video and shows clearly logically what is being discussed here. Thanks alot going to get into racing on track more serious and this was good info
I'm loving this type of videos more and more. Good Video by the way jejeje
I think that for a TF day, 3 point is the way to do it, unless your car has roll-cage, then you should use the helmet. 6 point like you said I would be really worried about the neck injuries, those are serious stuff.
Thank you Robert, this was very informative.
Excellent video - never really considered the risks of just a helmet and harness. Makes you realise what a great piece of equipment the HANS is
I never thought about it this way - all of your explanations make a lot of sense. For TF scenario 2 makes the most sense to me.
With the GT2RS I would consider every situation being more of a rear view mirror thing - so they should allow your to use the HANS in TF at least for this car :)
This is the type of videos we need on YT! Can you make video where you would explain how Nurbrugring affects your capabilities on public roads.
I started racing before the HANS. I finished with a HANS. God bless Jim Downing (one of the developers of the HANS). Thankfully, I never needed to use it. I never knew about the body twisting during a big road car accident. Thanks for the update to my knowledge base
I don't have a cage or harness but I always wear my helmet. My personal biggest fear is that if I spin and have a backwards or side impact that my head hits the glass window or B-Pillar.
Also if I roll the car over the left side, even if not very probable, my head might get bashed onto the asphalt. So a helmet is always on my head when I go out on the track.
Even if the intention is to do just a relaxed lap, it is forgotten often at KM2. ;)
Thanks for the video.
(should have read more....981porsche said it much better)
I was taught at the PCA HPDE school by two ex pro drivers (with some fast cars at VIR) that safety is a system.
1. OEM as sold factory street is better than just about anything save full race system
2. you are right, no hans with a helmet and harness is a great way to get paralyzed/killed....my opinion
3. Another reason NOT to put a removable steering wheel or fixed back non-oem seat in a street car ....it is a system.
If I was at your shop I'd do 3pt as is...and drive within my limits ...great videos, keep these and your shop going and thank you.
All or none...it really is a binary thing and your logic is spot on sir.
Jeff
Good input Jeff. Thank you for that!!
@@RobertMitchell I cannot believe I forgot to mention this....on my old track car (very modified 996TT with a built engine, suspencion, big wing, etc......had SCHROTH harnesses that were designed to give way in an impact for the car's native safety system (airbags) and was also HANS compatible....that to me was the best option....hold you "in" so you don't get thrown around in a car violently on track......as I am sure you guys see in the MR... but also safe for one's neck....they way i did it was on the street, no helmet/no hans...they were US DOT legal. On track, helmet and device....done.
Anyway, here is a link. I have nothing to do with these guys/this product but was a happy customer. You might eant to look at these.....
www.schrothracing.com/item/schroth-quickfit-pro/tuning-Harnesses you can add a 5 or 6 point antisub strap(s) too.....
Let me start by saying that I am not a race driver nor do I have any affiliation with racing in any way other than being a fan. I live in Canada so the Nurburgring is not someplace that I get to drive very often, only twice in fact. I have driven four laps in a Renault Megane RS and six laps in a BMW M3 ( I'm sure you know where I rented from Robert). The cars that I rented did not have six-point harnesses fitted so the only option I had was a three -point harness with a helmet. (The rental company would not allow you to drive without a helmet.) I was fine with that as it suited my driving style and my expectations.
Your video has brought up the six-point harness scenario and the three different options associated with it. I have to say it is not something I have thought about before but after watching the video and listening to your thoughts and concerns I think that the scenario #2 makes the most sense for TF. It seems to be the safest for all the points you mentioned. I also understand the restriction of the HANS device. Shoulder checks are absolutely mandatory for anyone on public roads, especially on the Nurburgring where there are so many turns and you can be overtaken at ANY point on the track/road. You have to be able to check for other cars before overtaking as well as constantly watching for others overtaking you.
I had another trip to Germany planned for later this summer but I have cancelled it due to the Covid19 situation. I had planned a few days in Nurburg so I could get in some laps. I have rescheduled for 2021 though. I was planning to step up a bit and try a Porsche Caymen on this trip. What do you think? Is it a big jump from an M3 to a Caymen? FYI my daily drive is a 2017 GMC Sierra 2500HD Crew Cab with a 6.0 gas so I'm not used to high performance LOL. I have been told that I drive it like a race car though.
I love your channel and your content. Keep those videos coming.
Very well put, one other thing to bare in mind is that a car without a full roll cage, full harnesses are not recommended as in the case of a roll and roof collapse you head has no ware to go, add the extra height of the helmet and the problem is exaggerated. Similar problem as if you put a roll cage in a car and don't have a full harness or helmet you end up getting injured by smashing into the cage. If i missed those comments..sorry.
100% correct!
Most important point, airbag vs no airbag in the car... Race cars do not have airbags for a reason as that is why the HANS is a must have. Road cars have come very far with regards to crash safety, so you should be fine during a roll over on the ring in your road car. The flip of the Scirocco on the ring is a good example of how sturdy road cars are in the event of a roll over.
Really well explained Robert.
Great video
The 5th solution is always the best at a track day, if that's no option would I go 3 point + helmet (option 2) airbag helps with the initial impact and helmet help with secondary impacts.
I'm no expert but this is how I would think in this scenario.
Quite scary to analyze the differing crash scenario, but once thought through, makes a whole lot of sense.
New Reception sign looks great on the barn
THX, glad you like the sign! It only took us 4 years lol
I fully agree - I had an accident 30 years ago in competition with harnesses and a helmet, pre HANS. I have permanent neck damage (C6/C7 disc removed). I think the best solution in a modern car with airbags designed for head restraint is normal seat belts with a light weight open faced helmet (I have a carbon Stilo helmet I use in my 458). Of course full harnesses and helmet with HANS is better if you are allowed to use this setup.
Great video, Robert. You provide info that I (for one) would never have thought of (eg the way the 3 point seatbelt allows the body to rotate). Is there a version of the Hans without the back piece? Maybe that could provide the safety without the restrictions. Anyway now it makes sense why you usually drive the GT2RS without a helmet. Keep up the great work and enjoy 4 days of TF.
Good Morning Robert.
Thank You for sharing your thoughts.
Never thought of All these Scenario.
Never thought that The Ring has limitations on your safety gear.
Food for Thought.
1 and 5 if possible.
Stay Safe and Keep Healthy.
Cheers from The Caribbean
Carlyle Khan Stay safe, stay healthy and enjoy some nice weather down there for us :-)
That was excellent. I am a fan of safety since it's allow me to keep going on the track again and again.
I would say a 3 point and a helmet for sure after watching this video. You also changed my mind about harnesses!
I come from a different sport, paragliding, where there is often a tradeoff between performance comfort and safety. The discussion threads go back and forth but I like the expression ‘which accident are you planning to have’ as in we can’t design our safety kit around limited scenarios
100% accurate. No one solution fits all:-)
Very interesting point of view mate!
Robert makes some good points. I have had the same concerns for years with safety equipment and road cars.
For sure scenario 1 is the most engineered and optmised and it's even certified by the manufacturer with a EuroNCAP rating.
In case of scenario 2, while it makes sense in terms of neck extension I still feel squeamish when it comes to helmet vs airbag impacts. What if the airbag is pierced by a sharp edge on your helmet? What if you have an open face helmet?
Scenario 3, 4 and 5 are pretty much out of the question for safety and regulations...But now, here comes the real kicker to all this: I have a convertible. A 6 point harness is the best way to stay planted in the seat in the event of a rollover. In a 3 point harness I am too mobile in the seat with potential for my upper body being lifted off the seat and therefore my head might touch the ground.. helmet or not. However if the rollhoops don't hold and I'm fixed in a 6 point harness without the ability to duck or move my head will surely be crushed by the weight of the car.
So what to do? The best solution I have found to this problem so far is to use a device called a CG Lock that I managed to buy while on a business trip in America. It is an adjustable anti-submarining device for 3 point harnesses that prevents you from moving your lower body from within the seat cushion, while keeping your torso and your shoulder belt free to pretension and decelarate you towards the airbag. I couple this system with a full face helmet at all times.
I know it's not the most complete safety package, but for how I use the car I think it's ideal. Should I get into serious racing then I will invest in a cage Hans and harnesses
The Schroth 4 point anti-submarine harness holds me more secure than the factory's 3 pt but still allow my body to twist.
It does but for sure but not as much as a 3pt.
if you want to be secure in a 3 point, move your seat back about 4-6 CM more than usual, engage the lock lugs of your 3 point, and move your seat back to normal position. You will be held securely in place while allowing the system that the engineers spent thousands of man-hours designing to work.
@@thenotoriousflip4275 And in the moment of impact it will restrict your body movement towards the steering wheel and will snap your neck . There has to be body movement/twist for you to retain your head on your shoulders my friend . Otherwise its kaput.
@@mantazini what do you think seatbelt pre-tensioners do?
@@mantazini you'll still move hombre..its just a 3 point. Your body will rotate as designed.
Great topic and lots of common sense. Thanks.
Valid points. In a car with a rollcage wearing a helmet is obligatory. You don't want to crack your head on a big metal tube. The weight difference between various helmets can be significant.
Okay, so now I have read through the comment section, and I feel that you need to make a video about some of this. It looks like this video has spawned a reaction that goes along the lines of "Oh no! No more helmet for me!". I'm 100% sure that it was not your intention, but it looks to me like that has been the outcome and that concerns me. People look to seasoned track rats like you and me for advice and experience, so it's super important that we deal with safety in a über cautious manner. Again, I agree with the concern about the neck extension and it is always in the back of my mind if I'm not wearing my HANS, but from where I sit, consensus from both veteran racers, safety experts, medical experts and the FIA is that helmet is always better than no helmet. Please don't take this as an attempt to cause trouble or tell you off, but the comments actually scare me.
Each comment I’ve seen of that nature I try to respond to with a please look further Into it concept. I am actually planning a follow up video regarding the in car safety gear and concepts
Great spotlight on personal safety. There’s definitely a lot consider, because a hans isn’t allowed I think that scenario 2 is the safest. Your head is protected and because your body can move in a relatively controlled manner the there should be little to no risk of neck extension due to the added mass of a helmet. An interesting discussion for sure!
Good discussion going on here!
excellent review, makes me stop and think, understanding the neck and impact from my FF days in the mid-80s. When I was secured in the car with a six-point harness and Hans devices were not even thought of back then. It had backwards and had whiplash. Now with how you describe everything, and doing track events, will get a hans device and until then not use the six point, because of concerns with the neck. Never thought of it as you have described it....
Thanks for a great and important analyze. Also the Hybrid is a good and probably even a better choise to protect the neck then it works in more direktions compared to Hans. I chosed myself a Simpson Hybrid Sport myself.
I agree with your logic for a purely frontal impact, however this is only one of many types of scenarios and probably the least likely unless you hit a stationary object. In the majority of side and glancing impacts it would make sense to me not to have too much lateral movement and this is where the helmet and harness begin to make a stronger case than without. So overall it is a question of which is the more like scenario? Interesting discussion 👍
I don’t wanna hundred percent agree as a side impact is also lightened from a HANS device. If you hit a wall at the side of your car your head is going to go either direction with Helmet as well. Again I’m not trying to spark a debate but give people things to think about however my points are not only for a head on impact
Regulations for track days are changing, in Australia there are rules that were supposed to come into effect this year (delayed until next year) that mandate HANS when a harnesses is being used.
In my opinion the only 2 proper solutions for track days are 3 point + helmet for street legal cars, or harness + helmet with hans. 3 point with no helmet for casual TF seems fine to me as long as the car has airbags.
Thanks for that Robert. For years I’ve been stupidly tracking my cars with 6 point harnesses, half roll cage and helmet thinking I was maximising my safety. It looks like I should either be looking for a HANS device or just sticking to the 3 point belts.
I think you should move to a HANS device as long as your car is safe to use one in. It’s the best solution for safety. Further more get a seat with wings on it if you are able to
That was very well explained. I enjoyed and learned from this video.
An instructor early in my tracking days recommended that when wearing a helmet with visor in an airbag equipped car, always keep visor in closed position. The warning is due to possibility of the airbag snapping your head back when it pushes up against the open visor.
JRMaroon yes this is a very good suggestion Along with not wanting the visor to break and send shrapnel into your eyes
Omg, just the imagination sent shivers down my spine 😨😖
easy fix, remove visor
Man these videos are mega! So educational and interesting, I always thought the two were mutually exclusive ;-)
Joe Achilles glad I can bring some learning fun to the table hahaha
Great video! I think in an old street-prepped car without a front air bag and side curtain airbags I would wear a helmet (with 3 point harness) but anything with airbags I wouldn't.
All these points are frankly right, and with a caged car you should be fully equiped like in scenario 5 because the bars above you are quite dangerous for the skull.
I do it sometimes in a converted way of safety. So I use a very very light helmet from Snowboarding. The purpose here is only to protect the skull from impacts from above or from the side, because when driving fast but concentrated the risk of impacting front is not as huge as in regular traffic.
Compared to that it is a very very high risk to overtake in a bad Position and to have severe head injuries, what is fatal or at least more bad as a neck injury.
People who fell with their head on the ground with permanent head injury would understand. Or look on Michael Schumachers skiing accident :(
So I would take that risk the biggest when driving fast on a race track or even street, but with beeing aware of breaking hardly first in a dangerous situation to reduce the speed for an impact first, with accordance to law of course and awarness to the other participents in the street.