@@zachall101 Tolkien wrote that the Harfoots were browner of skin than your average hobbits and they/Rings of Power took that to mean that they were literally noncaucasoid hobbits in Middle-Earth (hobbits are supposed to be a representation of rural English ppl) without saying that middle-earth is proto-Europe, and browner of skin meant they had darker white skin (olive) not that they were a different race, just like when Tolkien referenced Sam's "brown hands", or referred to certain groups of elves as elves Dark or grey (Sindar) elves. Of course they know that this is not what he meant, but they use it as an excuse to justify ruining his lore with identity politics and the plotholes they create by adding certain races where they dont make sense or adding races that were never a part of Tolkiens universe like Black people. Harad = inspired by North Africa / Middle East. Easterlings = inspired by Ottomans, Mongols & Persians.
if they are alot taller than your average man, European-looking, human & are working for Suaron they are black Numenorean, which includes The Hammer the first captain you fight.
The Corsairs of Umbar by the events of LOTR's were mostly Haradrim, with Castamir's line having died out a millennia prior. It's possible their might have been a few Black Numenoreans in Sauron's forces besides the Mouth of Sauron, like book Gothmog and the Black Serpent leading the Haradrim that Théoden fought, maybe even one or two leading the Haradrim composed Corsairs.
A legendary boss fight! His size was overblown, but that story was IMHO a good one that worked within the Legendarium and not breaking it. Could be the source for a good TV show. Unlike this video though, that is filled with simplifications and errors like RoP. I will not start.
@@henrikg1388 a lot of his videos tend to have errors. When he did a video about the Rings of Power (the actual artefacts, not the show), he didn't mention how the Rings were originally meant to be given to Elves before that plan backfired.
@@cormacmacsuibhne2867 Well, I haven't followed this channel specifically, but what you say makes sense. There is room for improvement, to put it gently. And the legendarium is complex and ambiguous in many ways. It isn't something to tackle having read the read the originally published books a few times and just have a YT go at it. Things aren't always clear cut, but a general and humble overview is necessary, such as the origins and purpose of the rings of power. But hey, Hollywood is far worse. Amazon doesn't provide a comment section.🙂
I wish the Black Numenoreans were more prominent antagonists in the Third Age. I honestly liked the concept of them being in Angmar, which to me makes sense sin you have the Witch-King leading to continue the war between the descendants of the King’s Men and the Dunedain who are descendants of the Faithful. Actually speaking of the Witch-King, what say you, @thebrokensword about the plausibility of him being of Numenorean origin?
@@MerryMohProductions if the witch king was one of the Numenorian Nazgûl, and I believe he was, he could have even had a more officially direct claim to the northern throne of Eriador than would Aragorn with his noble line passing through his mothers side. It would make the Angmar war make a lot of sense from the villains perspective.
@@ZephyrOptional OH, interesting speculation, on the other hand it’s widely affirmed that the Witch King was acting on Sauron’s accord than his own, which was to destroy the northern kingdom; even then I don’t think most of the Northern Dunedain or Arnorians altogether would’ve welcomed the Witch-King with open arms at his mere presence , which I guess could spark his war against Arnor anyway?! But still… Again not a bad idea, could’ve made the Angmar wars a bit more nuanced and interesting but could still be debated.
@@MerryMohProductions agreed that the witch king wouldn’t need motivation beyond being a slave to Sauron. It could have been an old promise back when he was still trying to manipulate the human that eventually becomes the wraith but Tolkien never specified which of the Nazgûl were Numenorian and happy to leave it a mystery.
1:211:36 Nothing like specificity on a Sunday! Cheers! 🍻🍻 3:25 to 3:32 4:15 and 5:57 Post-Dynasty 6:36 8:27 Umbar: coastal; corsairs; maritime malice 9:45 11:09 The 'crucial port' of Pelargir, on the River Anduin' 12:37 'Temple'
Regarding the fate of the Mouth of Sauron in the movie, it just goes to show how little Jackson actually understands about Tolkien. To attack and kill an enemy when they are negotiating is against the principles of war. Jackson simply doesn't comprehend the notion of honour so embedded in the literature.
I wish Tolkien added this detail that Because of their treatment of middle men The black numenorians wouldn’t lower themselves to dilute their bloodline Instead of intermixing with the middle men as their gondorian kin did the black numenorians would stoop to ever desperate attempts to maintain their blood purity as part of their Corsair raids against Gondor they would perhaps kidnap the wives or children of Gondorian nobles because of their purer blood as a means to maintain a half stable population of course this wouldn’t be successful so would devolve into inbreeding . These generations of inbreeding causeing them to devolve physically and mentally the darkness of their forms reflecting the darkness in their souls until they eventually fade away
7:28 not in the books, but still a great scene in my opinion. I especially like how much Gimli shows his disregard and hatred of the man similar to what he did with Saruman (“Shoot him. Stick an arrow in his gob.”)
people chose whether to love, care and support, or control, intimidate and rob fellow peoples. this choice was is and always will be that of the individual and those individuals chose B. i like the mention of beruthiel- tlokien was not a fan of cats, one of his books contains a three side slur of them (the one where the simeral is gained from the crown)
@@zachall101 yeah, but 3 of the ringwraiths were black Numemoreans lol. They featured more in the lotrs than the mouth of Sauron or indeed any of the other characters in the video. Why leave them out? 😊 But tbh, it's not the end of the world
@@fred20097 because nobody knows which 3 of the 9 were Black Numenoreans..... why mention them when you can't go in to more depth than "3 Ringwraiths were said to be Black Numenoreans, but we don't know which of them were"........ the only 2 we know anything about more than "is a ringwraith", are the Witch King & Khamul the Easterling.
I always thought this Part of Tolkiens rather untouched Topics is one of the most intriguing and interesting to me. Since all Men descended from the 3 Houses of Men, a complete account of their history and their fall from grace in form of maybe a Movie or a Series Adaptation would be so nice to see.
We might end up seeing how the Rohirrim came to be soon. As there is an animated series coming out in the next year or so, based on the rise of the rohirrim 👌🏼
Shouldn't Castamir and his supporters and decendents also be counted as Black Numenorians? If one boils it down, it was all about a perceived Numenorian prerogative to rule and about the longevity of pure-blood Numenoreans. And why weren't there "normal" or "middle-ground" Numenorians who were in neither camp? I mean, if we look at the Oath of Feanor, they clearly weren't fans of the Valar at that time, but nobody would actually say they were all evil. And there was a significant "middle-ground" with some Noldor chosing NOT to rebell and stay like Finarfin or those who went to Middle Earth but for entirely different - maybe even noble - reasons like Fingolfin or more selfish ideas like young Galadriel.
Its kind of shame the people's of Umbar, Haradrin etc never shook off the Black Numenoreans influence until after the war of the ring. Would have been epic to see Humanity standing as one against the darkness. Gondorian troops supported by Murmankil, chariot riders and easterling legionnaires. Ah well
Got an idea whatbif while Sauron was on Numenor someone recognized who he is and told the valar. Would they send someone to escort him away would they warn numenor of his threat. I wpuld believe they would at least send a messenger asking for him to be transfered into thier custody?
So that's what we're seeing in the desert trek of maybe-gandalf and protohobbit A and B in season 2 of THE Rings of Power? (KIND OF itgoeswithoutsayingpleasedon'thurtme)
The Numenoreans are R linguistic group, so that makes them Related to Norse. Numenoreans are Fictional? No. Tolkien used real languages in the creation of fantasy languages.
Amazon: Black Numenoreans you say?
Whoops, they'll run with that😂
Not that kind of black 😂😂lol 🤦♂️
@@Nick-zp8wk God please no they completely failed with Rings of Power
@@zachall101 Tolkien wrote that the Harfoots were browner of skin than your average hobbits and they/Rings of Power took that to mean that they were literally noncaucasoid hobbits in Middle-Earth (hobbits are supposed to be a representation of rural English ppl) without saying that middle-earth is proto-Europe, and browner of skin meant they had darker white skin (olive) not that they were a different race, just like when Tolkien referenced Sam's "brown hands", or referred to certain groups of elves as elves Dark or grey (Sindar) elves. Of course they know that this is not what he meant, but they use it as an excuse to justify ruining his lore with identity politics and the plotholes they create by adding certain races where they dont make sense or adding races that were never a part of Tolkiens universe like Black people. Harad = inspired by North Africa / Middle East. Easterlings = inspired by Ottomans, Mongols & Persians.
@@SagaciousNihilistto say ruining his lore by adding black people is kinda fuckin crazy man.
In Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor, the Tower of Sauron, one of the Black Captains of Sauron and primary antagonist, is said to be a Black Numenorean.
if they are alot taller than your average man, European-looking, human & are working for Suaron they are black Numenorean, which includes The Hammer the first captain you fight.
The Corsairs of Umbar by the events of LOTR's were mostly Haradrim, with Castamir's line having died out a millennia prior. It's possible their might have been a few Black Numenoreans in Sauron's forces besides the Mouth of Sauron, like book Gothmog and the Black Serpent leading the Haradrim that Théoden fought, maybe even one or two leading the Haradrim composed Corsairs.
akshually ☝️🤓
One of my favourite Black Numenorian outside the canon of the books is Agandaur from the War in the North game
A legendary boss fight! His size was overblown, but that story was IMHO a good one that worked within the Legendarium and not breaking it. Could be the source for a good TV show. Unlike this video though, that is filled with simplifications and errors like RoP. I will not start.
@@henrikg1388 a lot of his videos tend to have errors. When he did a video about the Rings of Power (the actual artefacts, not the show), he didn't mention how the Rings were originally meant to be given to Elves before that plan backfired.
@@cormacmacsuibhne2867 Well, I haven't followed this channel specifically, but what you say makes sense. There is room for improvement, to put it gently.
And the legendarium is complex and ambiguous in many ways. It isn't something to tackle having read the read the originally published books a few times and just have a YT go at it. Things aren't always clear cut, but a general and humble overview is necessary, such as the origins and purpose of the rings of power. But hey, Hollywood is far worse. Amazon doesn't provide a comment section.🙂
I wish the Black Numenoreans were more prominent antagonists in the Third Age. I honestly liked the concept of them being in Angmar, which to me makes sense sin you have the Witch-King leading to continue the war between the descendants of the King’s Men and the Dunedain who are descendants of the Faithful.
Actually speaking of the Witch-King, what say you, @thebrokensword about the plausibility of him being of Numenorean origin?
@@MerryMohProductions if the witch king was one of the Numenorian Nazgûl, and I believe he was, he could have even had a more officially direct claim to the northern throne of Eriador than would Aragorn with his noble line passing through his mothers side. It would make the Angmar war make a lot of sense from the villains perspective.
@@ZephyrOptional OH, interesting speculation, on the other hand it’s widely affirmed that the Witch King was acting on Sauron’s accord than his own, which was to destroy the northern kingdom; even then I don’t think most of the Northern Dunedain or Arnorians altogether would’ve welcomed the Witch-King with open arms at his mere presence , which I guess could spark his war against Arnor anyway?! But still…
Again not a bad idea, could’ve made the Angmar wars a bit more nuanced and interesting but could still be debated.
@@MerryMohProductions agreed that the witch king wouldn’t need motivation beyond being a slave to Sauron. It could have been an old promise back when he was still trying to manipulate the human that eventually becomes the wraith but Tolkien never specified which of the Nazgûl were Numenorian and happy to leave it a mystery.
1:21 1:36 Nothing like specificity on a Sunday! Cheers! 🍻🍻
3:25 to 3:32
4:15 and 5:57 Post-Dynasty
6:36
8:27 Umbar: coastal; corsairs; maritime malice
9:45
11:09 The 'crucial port' of Pelargir, on the River Anduin'
12:37 'Temple'
Regarding the fate of the Mouth of Sauron in the movie, it just goes to show how little Jackson actually understands about Tolkien. To attack and kill an enemy when they are negotiating is against the principles of war. Jackson simply doesn't comprehend the notion of honour so embedded in the literature.
Iron Crown did some good stuff with this subject in the old MERP game books
Amazing Video bro, absolutely love it (:
How do the timelines match up for when Sauron gave out the 9 rings, with the two Black Numenoreans you mentioned?
Loved the video! Would you be willing to make a video on the Númenóreans war equipment or other races war gear?
Nice work dude thanks
I wish Tolkien added this detail that Because of their treatment of middle men The black numenorians wouldn’t lower themselves to dilute their bloodline
Instead of intermixing with the middle men as their gondorian kin did the black numenorians would stoop to ever desperate attempts to maintain their blood purity as part of their Corsair raids against Gondor they would perhaps kidnap the wives or children of Gondorian nobles because of their purer blood as a means to maintain a half stable population of course this wouldn’t be successful so would devolve into inbreeding . These generations of inbreeding causeing them to devolve physically and mentally the darkness of their forms reflecting the darkness in their souls until they eventually fade away
7:28 not in the books, but still a great scene in my opinion. I especially like how much Gimli shows his disregard and hatred of the man similar to what he did with Saruman (“Shoot him. Stick an arrow in his gob.”)
Some of my fav Black Numenoreans outside canon are the Men of Mordor from Lotro, Like Mordrambor. Or Mordirith.
people chose whether to love, care and support, or control, intimidate and rob fellow peoples. this choice was is and always will be that of the individual and those individuals chose B. i like the mention of beruthiel- tlokien was not a fan of cats, one of his books contains a three side slur of them (the one where the simeral is gained from the crown)
We wuz Numenorians
Wakanda sank numenor
Cool video but you missed out the 3 ringwraiths who had once been numenorean lords. Oh well.
Yeah that is quite an oversight
This video is about the black numenoreans, NOT about the Ringwraiths, there IS a difference there
@@zachall101 yeah, but 3 of the ringwraiths were black Numemoreans lol. They featured more in the lotrs than the mouth of Sauron or indeed any of the other characters in the video. Why leave them out? 😊 But tbh, it's not the end of the world
@@fred20097 because nobody knows which 3 of the 9 were Black Numenoreans..... why mention them when you can't go in to more depth than "3 Ringwraiths were said to be Black Numenoreans, but we don't know which of them were"........ the only 2 we know anything about more than "is a ringwraith", are the Witch King & Khamul the Easterling.
@@SpiritStoneWarrior94-yx3gs I guess because the video is about black numenoreans which featured in lord of the rings?
I think their look is great inspiration for me to scratch build more 1/6 custom LOTR related figures!!
I always thought this Part of Tolkiens rather untouched Topics is one of the most intriguing and interesting to me. Since all Men descended from the 3 Houses of Men, a complete account of their history and their fall from grace in form of maybe a Movie or a Series Adaptation would be so nice to see.
We might end up seeing how the Rohirrim came to be soon. As there is an animated series coming out in the next year or so, based on the rise of the rohirrim 👌🏼
Great video, maybe it could be added that 3 of the nazgûl were Black Númenóreans.
Shouldn't Castamir and his supporters and decendents also be counted as Black Numenorians? If one boils it down, it was all about a perceived Numenorian prerogative to rule and about the longevity of pure-blood Numenoreans.
And why weren't there "normal" or "middle-ground" Numenorians who were in neither camp? I mean, if we look at the Oath of Feanor, they clearly weren't fans of the Valar at that time, but nobody would actually say they were all evil. And there was a significant "middle-ground" with some Noldor chosing NOT to rebell and stay like Finarfin or those who went to Middle Earth but for entirely different - maybe even noble - reasons like Fingolfin or more selfish ideas like young Galadriel.
Would like to see more of the mouth of souron in live action
SourMouth
8:05 - the plural of Elf is Elves not Elfs.... FFS.
Nerd
Loved the Witchking expansion for BFME 2.
Just imagine if the black numenorians didn't attack the undying West but went full conquering in middle earth?
Its kind of shame the people's of Umbar, Haradrin etc never shook off the Black Numenoreans influence until after the war of the ring. Would have been epic to see Humanity standing as one against the darkness. Gondorian troops supported by Murmankil, chariot riders and easterling legionnaires. Ah well
Well if anyone knows of divide and conquer, the black numenorians are fun 😊
Got an idea whatbif while Sauron was on Numenor someone recognized who he is and told the valar.
Would they send someone to escort him away would they warn numenor of his threat. I wpuld believe they would at least send a messenger asking for him to be transfered into thier custody?
When is Jake coming back? I miss him 😢
We’ve got plans to try and (somehow) fit some live streams in again, so hopefully soon! 🤞
@TheBrokenSword very nice. Look forward to that!
I dont think we call them black anymore. I believe the correct nomenclature is Numenoreans of Colour.
We're 3 of the Nazgul black Numenoreans?
So that's what we're seeing in the desert trek of maybe-gandalf and protohobbit A and B in season 2 of THE Rings of Power? (KIND OF itgoeswithoutsayingpleasedon'thurtme)
Numenorians but they live in the hood and play ball
FYI, they are like regular Numenoroians but you have to be careful because they will steal your watch.
And your bike
And wear trousers half way down their arses😂
Wow. You can’t say Black Numenorian without having to see a bunch of liked racist “jokes” in the chat… maybe this channel is not for me.
@@ZephyrOptionalDont blame the channel for viewers jokes.
@@malachiwarner5699 I really like this channel’s content and can dismiss random stupid comments but all the likes are a little disturbing.
Dude, stop with that weird rising screech at the start of videos. It is super jarring, annoying and adds nothing to your otherwise great videos.
The Numenoreans are R linguistic group, so that makes them Related to Norse. Numenoreans are Fictional? No. Tolkien used real languages in the creation of fantasy languages.
Video 312
Were you paid by amazon to write this?
🤔 Definitely not 😂
i thought this was a DEI video.
i’m so disappointed :(