I like how the “Angry Queen” had 9 black cats that were her slaves/spies. Similar to how Sauron had the 9 Nazgûl that wore all black and were slaves to him as well
@@k_hole-r8fInteresting idea, but did Saruman spy on the Nazgûl? He was stationary* whereas the Nazgûl roamed freely. (How did they get from the river Bruinen back home? If they can fly, why would they need horses or fell beasts?) *except maybe that one evening (in the book only) when he appeared as an old man by the edges of Fangorn, where Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli were staying overnight. (Was that man ever confirmed to be Saruman? Gandalf denied being there so who else could it have been? And if Saruman can teleport around like that, he could have spied on the Nazgûl, couldn't he? Why did he go to see the three of them, but did not undertake any actions against them?) Saruman certainly was not loyal to Sauron. Did Sauron ever suspect the Nazgûl might betray him? I thought that, having succumbed to their respective rings of power gifted from Sauron, each Nazgûl was his slave in perpetuity. Well, it seems that your comment was very thought-provoking! Thanks!
@@dronesclubhighjinks Saruman never served Sauron nor bent to him at all in the books. The Gandalf locked in the Tower bit is explained ONLY in the Unfinished Tales Book: In [manuscript-C) The Black Riders arrived at the Gate of Isengard while Gandalf was still a prisoner in the tower. In this account, Saruman, in fear & despair, & perceiving the full horror of service to Mordor, resolved suddenly to yield to Gandalf, & to beg for his pardon & help. Temporizing at the Gate, he admitted that he had Gandalf within, & said that he would go & try to discover what he knew; if that were unavailing, he would deliver Gandalf up to them. Then Saruman hastened to the summit of Orthanc - & found Gandalf gone. Away south against the setting moon he saw a great Eagle flying towards Edoras. See, the thing is he was always master of studying the enemy & even being able to think like they do to always know exactly the best ways to handle ever situation and so on, but the thing is he didn't just become the enemy, he at this time in a sense for once actually grew afraid of him, probably Sauron did what Sauron did with Finrod Felagund in the duel of visions, (Galadriel’s elder brother who by the way was the most important in the Legendarium & is the main reason the third age even exists) which basically widdled Saruman with various visions of the past and future until it wore him down, but Saruman(Curumo) was the mostly already becoming weary due to what was called The Long Defeat, magic bleeding out from the lands of middle earth and subsequently certain things become less and less possible and the elves begin to go west. Even the ones who never wished to leave middle earth and many of which were born here by the thousands. So him also being a student and helper of Aulë of the Valar he was going to fight fire with fire and make a bid for the ring just so Sauron could never regain full power and if Saruman found a way to release himself from his power restrictions even by any small margin or worked with Eru in some way it might have worked out in the end if things went differently enough to where such action from him would be needed. Ontop of that he was growing ever jealous of Gandalf for he received the Varya from Círdan and prior to that was chosen by the other Valar, Nienna’s chosen champion to go to middle earth. But Gandalf(Olórin back then) refused over and over and exclaimed his fear of Sauron(Mairon), varya I feel would have kindle the heart of Saruman to stay strong as he had been fighting the evils of the world for a very long time since he had been sent to Middle Earth. And for the is reason Saruman wished to hold the ring at hostage. Keep Sauron from taking back his full strength and basically use it to stave off The Long Defeat. Saruman is very complex. The Hobbit movies actually shows how he was even 60 years ago during Bilbo’s story. He was one of the main forces thwarting Sauron for over 2000 years. The Númenoreans: the high men of the west; gifted Saruman with Orthanc which was of their making. Now known as Isengard. - saruman is actually trying to doublecross sauron. He wants the ring for himself. He thinks he can control it. The little orcs around saruman are from mordor - sauron's orcs sent to help saruman but also to spy on him. The big fighting orcs - the uruk hai - are loyal only to saruman. Orcs are like that. But its why saruman's orders are a bit vague - to avoid sauron's orcs knowing what saruman is doing. The movies dont make this bit of the story very clear. But notice that, while saruman knows where the fellowship is he never lets Sauron Know.
In my head cannon I like to think that the mouth of Sauron went on to be the next “dark lord”, like the Sauron to Sauron’s Morgoth. So he’s just another step removed and less powerful and less divine power. Showing more so how the world is kind of becoming less magical, in the same way as how the Valor themselves fought against Morgoth, then it’s just the up to elves and men with the help of the Istari to defeat Sauron, and any further potential threats would be fought by men and elves until eventually it’s just the men fighting another evil man and there’s no more magic.
The Witch King was pretty much already Sauron's Sauron, as he was the Dark Lord's greatest servant and carried on the work of evil after Sauron's defeat by the last alliance. He even founded his own evil empire in Angmar, from which he led a generations-long campaign to destroy the northern Dunedain nation of Arnor, before returning to Mordor to continue the war against their southern cousins in Gondor. And that war even to the very end was mostly organized and fought by the Witch King and his forces based in Minas Morgul, rather than Sauron & the forces of Barad Dur.
Makes sense. Didn’t the Mouth possibly survive? I know he wasn’t killed like in the movies. But it’s also worth noting that Numenorean descendants don’t seem to survive as long as their forebearers, and likewise over time their blood will increasingly be diluted via marriages and the like with common men.
Love your style, especially when you go off on a tangent and then quickly summarize the tangent with a little humor thrown in so as to get back to the main topic. Anyways.... So entertaining! Don't ever change! Peace:)
I think the version where the Mouth of Sauron is extremely old feels better. Remember, he isn't just a great sorcerer in his own right, but he's one of the Dark Lords favourites. We've seen that the One-ring can greatly extend mortal life just as an unintended side-effect, and 'life extension' was one of Saurons main lures to ensnare the Numenoreans, so I think that between them they could extend the MoSs life to a crazy extent - although the price he paid was something very few would consider worth it. And, he would need a huge amount of time to pass to forget his own name. It's possible to break somebody quiet quickly through hardship and torment, but that's not what happened to The Mouth. From his PoV he was living-his-best-life! And it takes a lot longer than 68, or even 168 years to become a powerful sorcerer as well. Just a thought.
He has an epic deep dive video by TheRedBook channel and it goes hand in hand with one of his epic Nazgûl videos too. It shows just how horrifying they really were.
Nice video! That section about Berúthiel got me thinking though... Berúthiel and her cats may be Tolkien reusing an old idea for the original character of Sauron, who was originally called Tevildo. Now Tevildo was the Prince of Cats, and the mightiest of the cats, and occupied a fortress which Beren and Luthien went to- their Luthien defeated Tevildo, took that golden collar which made him big and powerful, and thus caused all the other cats to shrink in size and lose their power. Tevildo was an unpleasant character, known as the Prince of Cats and controlled many great cats. Berúthiel was an unpleasant character, known for her cats and appeared to mind-control her cats as well. So it's either a coincidence or Tolkien refashioned Tevildo's character to create Berúthiel!
It was probably a mix of that character idea and the friend of his he mentioned in an interview who REALLY didn't like cats but always got followed by them anyway
you cant equate tolkien and Numenorians blood running true with blood purity in our world. This is about a different species really, it is a group that were men but were changed by the gods to be stronger smarter bigger and live longer (really become a middle people between elves and men) So when he talks about blood running true it means the super human traits are still there. It is more like if you breed wolves with dogs and a few generations down the line pointed to a puppy that was more aggressive and bigger and said that dogs wolf blood runs true. I think its important to point this out, Tolkien was the opposite of a blood purist, guy had the guts to send a letter to the Nazi calling them out on antisemitic practices.
@@rogersmith3657 Thanks! I feel like we often try to put our societal issues into societies of the past and even fictional societies like this. For example the tolkien society debating how atheism is treated in middle earth. I mean in a world where the big bad is a literal fallen angle and a race of people are constantly leaving to go live among actual gods and can remember fighting along side them, I find it hard to believe atheism is wide spread lol.
@@mike-mz6yz as an atheist scum in real life , i can confirm that i would DEFINITELY be believing in shit if i witnessed stuff like an Elf leaving no trails in snow or a Troll who turns to stone thanks to holy sunlight... Tolkien's universe contains many beings that would be considered divine by our standards. The wargs themselves are implied to be bred from the maia/hounds of the first age. So if i was a regular Joe Slankton living near Bree , i could very well witness a lot of supernatural looking stuff and that would be plenty of reason to believe in supernatural stuff. I wish real life rivers had actual spirits like Goldberry and grandpas like Tom :D
@@OljeiKhan exactly! lol in our world even those that believe in God tend to believe he/it/them were way more involved thousands of years ago. In ME they are alll around. I mean an angle literally goes around launching fireworks at parties. I agree about the river spirits and such too. Its one reason ive always wished the greek gods were real. Having different gods to represent ever aspect of life would be really cool. So would the idea that if you walk through the woods there is a chance you could run into nypths or water spirits or any other magically beings. Too bad our world is so plain.
@@mike-mz6yz I heard in India you can still get run over by Bronze-Age priests, they kept a lot of their old gods and beliefs, and still use ancient manuscript books when creating their idols to the old traditional specifications exactly, even painting the eyes last as that is the moment the deity enters the statue.
Fantastic video! I learned so much. The cat queen Beruthiel is a new favourite villain of mine for sure. I should be used to it by now, but every time I learn about more Middle Earth, history, I feel astonished at Tolkien's level of detail. Thank you for the video! 😻 (I only rarely find use for this emoji!)
this is the first video i have seen from you and i must say that i fell in love with the way you explain things. i don't feel overwhelmed by all the details you choose to present. listening to your voice is like having a conversation over tea with a friend. i'm looking forward to your future projects!
So, about the Black Numenorians fear of death; is it just a coincidence that before the Battle of Pelennor Fields Théoden shouted to Rohirrim "Death!" ?
I'd love to see some fanfiction for Berúthiel. Maybe something where she's either misunderstood or intentionally maligned by the Gondorians. Seems like a legitimate take on her legend.
I just realized the parallel between Beruthiel and her cats and Sauron and the rings. Nine black cats and nine rings for men and one white cat The One Ring to rule them.
Awesome video! Been a Tolkien fan for decades and your channel is great! I didn’t know Umbar was a full fledged kingdom, I always imagined it as a city-state. Love that I’m still learning! Thanks!
I don't see Aragorn decapitating the Mouth of Sauron during a so-called "parlay" as dishonorable. The way I see it, Aragorn HAD to do it. The Mouth and his poisonous words were literally sucking the courage right from his men's hearts. They were already shrinking back and Aragorn saw this. In fact his first words to his men after decapitating the Mouth in the movie - "I see in your eyes the same FEAR that would take the heart of me", kind of prove my point. Decapitating him as he did was a way to show his men that there was literally NOTHING to fear from the Mouth OR from Sauron because they once again have a bad-ass Numenorean King leading them. It gave his men heart and bolstered their courage, especially with the speech that followed. Besides, had Aragorn ridden to the Black Gate alone - there is no doubt they would have done much worse to him regardless, because the servants of Sauron have NO HONOR.
Dave, there's so much respect for your work here. If you haven't noticed by your self, you are by far the greatest teller of Tolkiens' lore, even from these big channels with hundreds of thousands of views. Please work on your promotion of your channel too, it's a shame if there is people who haven't discovered you yet. Your voice, your rythm, your details and also your script on how to unravel these things for us seems to be with "μεράκι", as we say in Greece with this word that's not translated to other languages. Be well, we expect to see many of your thoughts come to life in your videos.
It's so weird how on the nose Tolkien's names are, especially for evil characters. Like, the language exists in universe. We would expect an educated person in Numinorean aristocracy to be aware they were naming their kid the elfish phrase for "dark evil" or whatever. How metal were these parents??
I think he did this intently to show how history shapes language. Kind of like Benedict Arnold, in 1000 years someone might look at that character and say why did his parents name him after a term meaning traitor? nobody should have trusted him. When really his actions gave the term meaning.
U are so good at explaining,this body of work,I've tried to study with other channels, but I get lost in the many, descendants of the characters kin,but u walk it down,step by step in a way I can understand.I think u sir.
I know I'm very late to comment on this video, but part of me always hoped there would be a surviving member of both the Black Numenoreans and the sons of Castamir to redeem the Dunedain of Umbar. Imagine if the Heir of Isildur met a long distant relative with blood from the Dunedain of Umbar and Gondor. Even if they were to become rival kingdoms again, I hope that their mutual love for Numenorean ideals could lead both kingdoms to gaining an understanding for one another as sucessor states to the legendary kingdom of Numenor.
Sadly, any such redemption would probably have to come through Aragorn. Remember, the Black Numenoreans were left behind in Umbar when Ar-Pharazon arrived to conquer and carried Sauron captive back to Numenor. At that point, they were followers of the Usurper and desired immortality just as he did. Umbar is separated from the Northwest of the continent by Mordor, which was impassible even when people believed it was empty. It is likely that the first news they received of the Foundering came from Sauron himself. If not, the first they would have heard was when Gondor finally made it down to the mouth of Anduin in the first attempt to take Umbar generations later. Not exactly something to put them in a listening or redeeming mindframe. Though there may have been travelers up and down Anduin who brought the news to them.
The Numenoreans, especially the Faithful, in terms of height, were almost as tall as the Spartan super soldiers from the Halo games. I know this game is non-canon, but in Shadow Of Mordor, there was a Black Numenorean known only as The Tower. He was the embodiment of Sauron’s cruel and sadistic nature, but his height was comparable to that of the Numenoreans of old. It actually makes me wonder if he was purely of Numenorean blood.
Glad to have you back creating new content Dave! Good luck with the new job and new city~ hope it all works out for ya! Just happy to have you back~ I tried all the other channels while you were doing your thing and, lol~ well here I am writing this, lol~ you just explain it very well my friend, so thank you!
Thanks Rainbow Dave! My pet fanfic regarding the black numenoreans/the mouth of sauron/the fourth age: Canoncially: In the Kin-Strife, Castamir the Usurper, who was of the royal line of Gondor, rose up against the rightful king on the basis of racial prejudice against the royal blood being mixed with the middle men of Rhovanion. He was defeated after a brief reign, but we know that his sons fled south and became the rulers of Umbar. We know that these rulers would later mix with the men of Harad, but I propose that there was a faction of the line of Castamir that protested against this mingling, and returned in secret to try and preserve their 'supremacy' among the 'purer' nobility of Gondor. They were servants of the shadow, and late in the third age offered up a child to the newly returned Sauron. This child became the Mouth of Sauron, who was the lieutenant of Barad-dur, in line to be Sauron's second-in-command in Orthanc - Just as Sauron had been the lieutenant of Morgoth. But when Sauron fell, the Mouth survived the battle of the Morannon, and his line re-infiltrated Gondorian society. Down the generations they passed the secret title of "Lieutenant" to their leader, regarding themselves as the heirs to the shadow. They would be behind the plot in The New Shadow, and continue to operate even after its thwarting. Being "mostly true" descendants of the Numenorean line of kings, they could also produce an 'anti-Elessar' to challenge or even intermarry to the kingship of the Re-united Kingdom. I would like to see the racial supremacist elements within Tolkien's world confronted head-on by a narrative which understands their folly. Perhaps the last remnants of the world of the Numenoreans must finally burn down, and notions of supremacy based on ancient bloodlines be ended, before men can start a new age in equality.
I think you would love the "Age of The Ring" mod for Batle for Middle-Earth II, while the vanilla game made Angmar a faction with the black numenorians (as you mentioned) the mod made an entire new faction (the "Haradwaith") while they house the easterlings and harads they also house black numenorians as its elite tier troops. All together with a roster of Harad heros, among them a hero claiming to be the rightfull king of the numenorian legacy. Although it may be completely made up they do seem to follow the lore than other games wich usually lump them together with Angmar as a default.
I do like that the crazy not-so-cat-loving lady gets put on a boat with cats. Critters probably didn't like water much. I feel bad that Ulmo has to deal with her.
Loved it Dave. especially the summary resisting our fears and staying to True in our faith. Really enjoyed this as I do all your content. Stay groovy 🌈 Dave
The greatest reason for the eclipse of the Black Numenoreans after the Akallebeth was that they lived in the most heavily populated lands of Middle Earth and intermarried with the twilight men and lost their culture and heritage; whereas the Faithful lived in Gondor and Eriador which was not heavily populated, except for the forefathers of the Dunlendings who did not want much to do with the Dunedain. Numenor lived on in Gondor and Arnor, but not in Harad, amongst the Southrons, or the Mumakani.
*Actually Numenoreans lived in Harad, too, whether it be Umbar or the settlements south (the areas which Earendil explored during the First Age which lead to his encounter with Ungoliant albeit that was in the Book of Lost Tales) ~ One of the three last settlements of Elros' bloodline was in Harad, when Castamir's sons, grandsons and great-grandsons mated with the women of Harad ~ Also one of the reasons Arnor fell - unlike Gondor and Umbar - was due to their lack of intermarriage with non-Numenoreans and Middle Men ~*
@@BartAllen Harad was much more heavily populated than Eriador and Belfalas, Lebennin, Anorien, and Ithilien were more or less desolate because the Eldar were in those regions and the twilight men feared them.
@@BartAllen That is why the Faithful settled in Gondor, to be nearer to the Eldar and let's be honest much better real estate with very few locals to be upset with their new neighbors. What happened later with Gondor and the middle-men came after the establishment of the Gondorian Empire of the Sea Kings.
i completely agree with your take on PJ sullying Aragons honour during the parlie with the LT of barudur , his character in books is totally counter to this kinda action imo
17:50 - Dude. Unarmed messenger? They aren't there to negotiate. In the books, Gandalf uses that moment to stall for time, but there was never a version of that reality where he was going to make it. There's Parlay that involves intention to make real peace with an amicable host, and then there is this; Sauron sending a messenger to poke and prod his guests into a state of hopelessness and disarray after just recently storming on their territory after thousands of years of deceit and destruction both under Morgoth AND solo... Look. There is no parlaying. It wasn't dishonorable. It was a return message to a far crueler Sauron; "We reject your offer and substitute our own. Come out and fight." And Aragorn probably sees a Dark Numenorean as a traitor to his own kind, and wouldn't be wrong, so again, I'm cool with it. Also...Dude. Don't break your spine trying to bend around the term "blood." It's a term used across history before an understanding of genetics to explain personal traits such as strength, vitality, endurance, intellect and willpower, as well as to discern the source of physical traits presented. Would you say "Faramir and Denethor bore clear genetic similarities in appearance to Numenoreans?" No. It's a grounding statement that shows us today what Numenoreans back then roughly looked like on average. It's literally the same statement with different words. Relax. Context is key, and if anyone tells you different, they are wrong.
I believed that the Mouth of Sauron had died in the final battle leading the armies of Sauron. Such a loyalist is not just going to up and leave their lord in their greatest need--unless commanded.
Canoncially: In the Kin-Strife, Castamir the Usurper, who was of the royal line of Gondor, rose up against the rightful king on the basis of racial prejudice against the royal blood being mixed with the middle men of Rhovanion. He was defeated after a brief reign, but we know that his sons fled south and became the rulers of Umbar. We know that these rulers would later mix with the men of Harad, but I propose that there was a faction of the line of Castamir that protested against this mingling, and returned in secret to try and preserve their 'supremacy' among the 'purer' nobility of Gondor. They were servants of the shadow, and late in the third age offered up a child to the newly returned Sauron. This child became the Mouth of Sauron, who was the lieutenant of Barad-dur, in line to be Sauron's second-in-command in Orthanc - Just as Sauron had been the lieutenant of Morgoth. But when Sauron fell, the Mouth survived the battle of the Morannon, and his line re-infiltrated Gondorian society. Down the generations they passed the secret title of "Lieutenant" to their leader, regarding themselves as the heirs to the shadow. They would be behind the plot in The New Shadow, and continue to operate even after its thwarting. Being "mostly true" descendants of the Numenorean line of kings, they could also produce an 'anti-Elessar' to challenge or even intermarry to the kingship of the Reunited Kingdom. I would like to see the racial supremacist elements within Tolkien's world confronted head-on by a narrative which understands their folly. Perhaps the last remnants of the world of the Numenoreans must finally burn down, and notions of supremacy based on ancient bloodlines be ended, before men can start a new age in equality.
It's always sad for me how they change the vision of Angmar into the dominion of Black Numenoreans, there was never a population of these people in the North, instead Angmar (apart from being inhabited by orcs) was home for Angmarim Hillmen which in many games for eg. are forgotten and no body really remembers them, that's why I love the depiction of Angmarim in War in the North, at this the game is really accurate. Remember Angmar!
He skipped how the rebels who fought the Kin Strife against the true king of Gondor fled to Umbar when defeated. Not sure why he'd skip that, seems relevant. They were allied to Umbar, provided new Numenorean blood to that in Umbar and likely increased the hatred of the Umbar rulers against Gondor.
I have to say blood purity in middle earth is an important factor of all the realms. It's why Aragon is superior to Théoden in the third age, due to his blood line to the great island of Numenor. 🙂
It's a bit misleading to say that Numenoreans aren't from Middle Earth, since all their human ancestors both before and during the First Age were indeed from Middle Earth. Even their Elven ancestry, passed down from Elwing of the Teleri (Sindar) and Idril Celebrindal of the Noldor, both came from Middle Earth.
I'm enjoying your videos on Tolkien. Thank you for your efforts. One question I had was in ROTK before they set out for The Black Gate someone says they are barely the size of Gondor's vanguard at its height (I don't remember the line word for word). I'm wondering just how big the army was if the vanguard was 6 or 7 thousand.
The reason cats go to people that don't like cats is due to cats perceiving that looking at them is an invitation. People that don't like cats tend to keep an eye on the cats, hoping they will stay away. The cat sees them looking and comes over to see what they want. Ironic huh? lol Take Care All
@@bobboonah Actually it's dogs/canines that consider looking them in the eye as a threat/challenge. Cats actually take your posture and attitude into consideration. Unless you have a menacing posture the cat looks at is as an invitation.
@@bobboonah They must not have ever had a cat then, plus I've never seen that in anything I've read about cats. You may want to find a better source of info.
Sorry, video was too nice, so second comment. (: Adding onto the thing about the Oath Breakers: Watching them swarm the Mûmakil in the Pelennor Fields like bugs during the movie was both one of my favourite and most hilarious parts. xD
Yeah, I wasn't cheering Aragon cutting the Mouth of Sauron's head off. I literally said out loud "so we're chopping envoy's heads off during a parlay?" Wasn't one his noblest moments.
@Abe Froman Thanks for that. Where would we all be if you weren't here to tell us it was a movie? Likely going on thinking we were watching a documentary. 🙄
Sorry, but I take issue with "The Numenoreans were not from Middle-earth....", Hurin and Huors kin, whose descendants became the Numenoreans travelled west across Middle-earth and met the Noldorin in Middle-earth. So they did come from Middle-earth through the houses of Hador, Beor and Haleth and were given some gifts for the actions of their houses by the Valar.
The long life of the Numenoreans was granted by the Valar as a reward to the men who fought with the elves during the wars against Morgoth in the 1st Age (most men sided with Morgoth). Before this they lived ordinary lifespans for men.
@@Dante-vf4sd nope, he wasnt the father of the nation lol in the first age a few clans of men went west to where the elves lived while the rest stayed in the east where melkor was worshiped. The ones who went west mostly ended up becoming friends with the elvish kingdoms and fought along side them (some fought for the dark lord too) Those who survived the war were given gifts for the sacrifice. After the war when the world was reshaped Eru created a new huge island in between middle earth and valinor and settled these men there giving them and made them super human pretty much. They then selected elros as king (the half-elf who picked humanity)
@@Dante-vf4sd I believe his ancestors did live long even for numenoriens though because of his heritage. Like 200 years for normal ones and 400 for his line.
Berúthiel shown as liking rather puritan aesthetics gives the idea that this was what the Black Numenoreans were like. It may also show us what Tolkien, a catholic, thought of puritan aesthetics. :)
At 20:30 you write that the kin-strife is the reason Osgiliath is a ruin. That is very vaguely worded and not wholly true, the Dome of the Stars and the Palantír within were destroyed and the city was sacked. The Kin-strife was only the initial decline for Osgiliath as the capital of Gondor, with the king's court being moved in TA 1640, almost two centuries after the Kin-strife. Osgiliath was not abandoned until TA. 2475, almost a millennium after the kin-strife.
Would it be possible that the mouth of sauron was gifted a lesser ring? The statement that he was trusted by Sauron and knew his mind makes me believe he is much older as Sauron works in hundreds of years of dozens, it could have extended his life but not yet turned him into a wraith. And if he becomes a wraith, well it has worked for Sauron in the past the Nazgul???
There's absolutely no evidence to support this either way, but I like to imagine the Mouth of Sauron being de-radicalised after the fall of Barad-dur, and at least finding some redemption in a life absent the Dark Lord's influence. Other than that there's not really any good Black Numenroeans, although after the downfall of Sauron, the men of Harad did make peace with Aragorn and lived in peaceful co-existance with Gondor. So it is possible.
There is no redemption for these people. They literally worship evil and breed it down to their descendants. Even when Numenor was still above the water, the Faithful and King's Men were already separate. Now when Arnor and Gondor were formed a lot of Numenoreans eventually turned to the Black Numenorean side, but no one came the other way. There is the term "fallen" for a reason. No one gets back up. Of course we are talking about Numenoreans, not others like Easterlings or Haradrim, who Sam imagines might actually believe that their cause was just
@@tolkienuntangled the Men of Harad are not Black Numenoreans, so they fought for Sauron as an ally on equal standing. The Mouth probably killed himself or fled so far east no one found him, as he was clearly old and set in his ways
@@SantomPh well good thing there was no mention then, haha I'd like to believe that even those who were bred for evil have a chance at redemption. thanks for the answers :)
I’m down for working through the questions arising out of the age of the mouth of Sauron. My instincts tell me that 66 is not quite old enough. Next time you’re in NYC look me up and we’ll have lunch and try to figure it out!
Canoncially: In the Kin-Strife, Castamir the Usurper, who was of the royal line of Gondor, rose up against the rightful king on the basis of racial prejudice against the royal blood being mixed with the middle men of Rhovanion. He was defeated after a brief reign, but we know that his sons fled south and became the rulers of Umbar. We know that these rulers would later mix with the men of Harad, but I propose that there was a faction of the line of Castamir that protested against this mingling, and returned in secret to try and preserve their 'supremacy' among the 'purer' nobility of Gondor. They were servants of the shadow, and late in the third age offered up a child to the newly returned Sauron. This child became the Mouth of Sauron, who was the lieutenant of Barad-dur, in line to be Sauron's second-in-command in Orthanc - Just as Sauron had been the lieutenant of Morgoth. But when Sauron fell, the Mouth survived the battle of the Morannon, and his line re-infiltrated Gondorian society. Down the generations they passed the secret title of "Lieutenant" to their leader, regarding themselves as the heirs to the shadow. They would be behind the plot in The New Shadow, and continue to operate even after its thwarting. Being "mostly true" descendants of the Numenorean line of kings, they could also produce an 'anti-Elessar' to challenge or even intermarry to the kingship of the Reunited Kingdom. I would like to see the racial supremacist elements within Tolkien's world confronted head-on by a narrative which understands their folly. Perhaps the last remnants of the world of the Numenoreans must finally burn down, and notions of supremacy based on ancient bloodlines be ended, before men can start a new age in equality.
In the context of LOTR novel, Tolkien wrote that the blood of Numenor ran true in Framir & his father unlike his brother Boromir. Therefore I understood he meant character wise, wisdom & insight rather than purity of race or anything related to genetics. Because otherwise Boromir would also be pure.
or that genetic traits that is expressively numenorian (taller in stature, longer of life) were present in faramir but wasn't in boromir, punnet square and all that.
The Black Numenorians are the coolest faction in the Legendarium. I like that not all the Numenorians were such goodie tooshoes. It makes so much sense that the greatest of men would also be the greatest threat to Middle Earth.
I think the more "pure" blood can more be described as being longer lived. Its not a racial superiority thing so much as an effect of genetics where random combinations create occasional benefits. Kind of like not being born with a predisposition for cancer. Doesn't make you a better person, you just lucked on on the genetic level.
Well its not really genetic though, it is a blessing from the creator in this world for fighting against Melkor. So I dont think its really genetic. It is interesting too see how it travels down the generations though. I see it more as when the Dunedain were blessed they were created into a different race like elves are different from men. They are over a foot taller then the average man they are stronger they are smarter and live longer. to go into a different universe I would compare it more to the amazons. They were normal human women then the greek gods gave them gifts that made them something different.
I mean if your race lives 5x longer than everybody else, and your average height is 4-7 inches taller, there is definitely some racial superiority going on there lol. It's not like real races where there are no significant differences like that except color, which doesn't make anybody better (except getting sunburnt, I'm way better at getting sun burnt than black people)
The Numenoreans had Elvish blood, so knowing that Elves are immortal (unless killed or wasting away from grief), if their blood is mixed with “lesser” Men, it would extend their lives. The length of that would depend upon the pureness of the original Numenor blood and the amount of Elvish blood in them.
@@hammerheadfxdwg2018 I thought this for a long time, but honestly im not sure if it is true anymore. The numenoreans have long life as a gift from Eru and it starts to go away when they start to fall from grace so to speak. Even though they are still full numenorien. So im not sure aragorns kids for example have an expanded lifespan. The only example we have of elves and men mixing and it resulting win longer life is Elros and Elrond, but they given the choice of picking elf or human because of what their parents did(saving the world pretty much) and that passes down to Elronds kids. Im starting to think long life is more a gift from the gods then a bloodline thing. Could be wrong though.
I wouldn't say I Umbar was a Kingdom, an independent state does not need to be a Kingdom, we know that Black Numenoreans although having control over coasts of Harad were a minority and various chieftains of Black Numenoreans rose in power among Haradrim, which means that it wasn't really a Kingdom in Second Age but it probably was an Independent State(of course dependent of Sauron's influence indirectly). Herumor and Fuinur are mentioned just as great Lords of that lands having power on those territories and there is no mention of it being a separate Kingdom, I really do not believe that it was a Kingdom ever, maybe in the Third Age when Castamir's decendants ruled it had rose to the rank of Kingdom though it is not sure we know that it was an independent state but that time too, so if there is no mention of a kingdom or a king I think we shouldn't say that. Of course it's just my own opinion, Tolkien didn't gave many information about the southern and eastern territories so there is a lot of free space for speculation.
Racial purity in Numenorean society means lives longer. Middle men blood means life span dilution. Probably also phenotypic change. Which happens among endogamous communities. Tolkien was a product of his time.
If you mean the term "Black Numenorians" it is not as I understand about color of their skin, but about their ideology. The "Black" Numenoreans were not called so in the Second Age they were simply Numenoreans or later King's men. This name came from their worship of Sauron and Melkor more than any phenotype. Ironically "Black" Numenoreans could be actually "purer" in their genetics than people of Gondor and Arnor as they were conquerors and tyrants and unconcerned by things like sanity, incest or morality and very concerned by the things like immortality, lifespan, power and superiority. Lessening of the lifespan is another topic. To go a bit into it, Numenoreans were made superhuman by pretty much divine blessing and maintained teachings of the elves and Valar. But that blessing was finite and to an extent tied to Numenor's very existence. Essentialy, more they went against Valar and their teachings, shorter their lives became. Prior to Tar-Ancalimon (who made the split between King's men and Faithful) the kings of Numenor usually lived around 4 centuries, past that the lifespan of the kings starts to decline rapidly with final king of Numenor starting to feel decline towards death by the age of 200. In contrast Elendil (of The Faithful) was fit enough to duel Sauron at the age of 322 (and BTW unlike in the movie Gil-Galad and Elendil decisively defeated Sauron in that Duel before succumbing to their wounds). After the fall of Numenor even the Faithful started to decline (line of the kings prior to Aragorn having lifespans around 150-250 years). Dilluting of the Numenorian blood in case of Gondor was more a case of a demographic shift more than anything else. When you read history of Gondor it has its share of catastrophic defeats, plagues etc. and Numenoreans had pretty low birthrate so the population got replenished by Middle men and while the cultural shift was not that severe the ethnic shift was much more pronounced so by the end of TA only a small percentage were truly Numenoreans the rest may have had Numenorian generations back but were for intents and purposes of the lifespan Middle men.
The cat lady reminds me of a Greek tale of aprofoundly wicked princess who was banished on a boat with her, I believe 10, followers (attendants or ladies in waiting, if memory serves) that landed on an island called Alba that was inhabited by demons with whom the Greek women mated, creating monstrous offspring.
Love your stuff dave. Absolutly love. But. And i feel slow for asking but. At the begining and end of every video. What is it u are saying. It sounds beautiful
Interesting video as always, thanks for making them. Something I have wondered about for a while is, in the movie at the gates of Mordor, Frodo, Sam and Gollum are almost caught by two soldiers from a large group entering the black gates, who were they?
That scene isn't really in the books, but I believe those guys are supposed to be the Eastelrings of Rhun. Along with the Haradrim (and corsairs) the Easterlings were Gondor's most persistent enemies. In fact even after the defeat of Sauron, they remained enemies of Gondor for a long time, and continued hostilities against Aragorn.
You seem to not understand the actual “gift” part of death. The spirits of Men depart Ea after death for a purpose that Eru Illuvatar never tells anyone. This is his gift to mortal men, whereas elves can never leave the confines of the universe. It’s this special purpose beyond the universe that is the gift, and the idea of trusting in the plan of Eru is like that of a Christians faith in god and Heaven. Tolkien was Catholic after all and even said that his books were a fundamentally religious and catholic work. From that perspective death is very much a gift, as it offers the chance to join ones creator beyond the confines of a universe where sadness, pain and tragedy exist.
@@brendanheald9067the Valar themselves and the elves grew envious of the men and their gift. As they go to the timeless halls of Eru. Where Morgoth can no longer follow them. ❤
@@brendanheald9067except they’re not an allegory to that. Fuller context is on the page known as Tolkien and myth lovers. You’ll be blown away. Using full context not just from Tolkiens own words but lots of other letters and such included.
@@Makkaru112 I know their not an allegory (I don’t think there’s a person alive who doesn’t know Tolkien hates it) I was just using it as a comparison for why it would be seen as a gift
@@PanzerShrek94 see the OP's reply above to the comment by Weng Chiang, pointing out how anti-racist Tolkien was: "... even by the standards of his own time, Tolkien was markedly anti-racist. He described the contemporary 'race doctrine' as "pernicious and wholly unscientific"". The idea of "pure bloods" is of course complete laughable hogwash, all peoples on Earth are descendants of other peoples mixing over the past 300,000 years or so; anyone telling you that there's such a thing as any "pure blood" is embarrassing themselves by their ignorance.
@@PanzerShrek94welll their blood was blessed so it became more and more diluted but got realigned with the children from Aragorn and Arwen. Linking all the bloodlines of highestborn elves from the awakening of the elves down to the best of the Edain. Hador, Haleth, Bëor etc.
I like the idea of the mouth of sauron being over 3000 years old. Kinda explains why he forgot his name
I like how the “Angry Queen” had 9 black cats that were her slaves/spies. Similar to how Sauron had the 9 Nazgûl that wore all black and were slaves to him as well
In that analogy, Saruman could possibly represent the white cat
@@k_hole-r8f An excellent theory! You just blew my mind lol never even thought about that💯
@@k_hole-r8fInteresting idea, but did Saruman spy on the Nazgûl? He was stationary* whereas the Nazgûl roamed freely. (How did they get from the river Bruinen back home? If they can fly, why would they need horses or fell beasts?)
*except maybe that one evening (in the book only) when he appeared as an old man by the edges of Fangorn, where Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli were staying overnight. (Was that man ever confirmed to be Saruman? Gandalf denied being there so who else could it have been? And if Saruman can teleport around like that, he could have spied on the Nazgûl, couldn't he? Why did he go to see the three of them, but did not undertake any actions against them?)
Saruman certainly was not loyal to Sauron.
Did Sauron ever suspect
the Nazgûl might betray him? I thought that, having succumbed to their respective rings of power gifted from Sauron, each Nazgûl was his slave in perpetuity.
Well, it seems that your comment was very thought-provoking! Thanks!
@@dronesclubhighjinks Saruman never served Sauron nor bent to him at all in the books. The Gandalf locked in the Tower bit is explained ONLY in the Unfinished Tales Book: In [manuscript-C) The Black Riders arrived at the Gate of Isengard while Gandalf was still a prisoner in the tower. In this account, Saruman, in fear & despair, & perceiving the full horror of service to Mordor, resolved suddenly to yield to Gandalf, & to beg for his pardon & help. Temporizing at the Gate, he admitted that he had Gandalf within, & said that he would go & try to discover what he knew; if that were unavailing, he would deliver Gandalf up to them. Then Saruman hastened to the summit of Orthanc - & found Gandalf gone. Away south against the setting moon he saw a great Eagle flying towards Edoras.
See, the thing is he was always master of studying the enemy & even being able to think like they do to always know exactly the best ways to handle ever situation and so on, but the thing is he didn't just become the enemy, he at this time in a sense for once actually grew afraid of him, probably Sauron did what Sauron did with Finrod Felagund in the duel of visions, (Galadriel’s elder brother who by the way was the most important in the Legendarium & is the main reason the third age even exists) which basically widdled Saruman with various visions of the past and future until it wore him down, but Saruman(Curumo) was the mostly already becoming weary due to what was called The Long Defeat, magic bleeding out from the lands of middle earth and subsequently certain things become less and less possible and the elves begin to go west.
Even the ones who never wished to leave middle earth and many of which were born here by the thousands.
So him also being a student and helper of Aulë of the Valar he was going to fight fire with fire and make a bid for the ring just so Sauron could never regain full power and if Saruman found a way to release himself from his power restrictions even by any small margin or worked with Eru in some way it might have worked out in the end if things went differently enough to where such action from him would be needed.
Ontop of that he was growing ever jealous of Gandalf for he received the Varya from Círdan and prior to that was chosen by the other Valar, Nienna’s chosen champion to go to middle earth. But Gandalf(Olórin back then) refused over and over and exclaimed his fear of Sauron(Mairon), varya I feel would have kindle the heart of Saruman to stay strong as he had been fighting the evils of the world for a very long time since he had been sent to Middle Earth.
And for the is reason Saruman wished to hold the ring at hostage. Keep Sauron from taking back his full strength and basically use it to stave off The Long Defeat.
Saruman is very complex. The Hobbit movies actually shows how he was even 60 years ago during Bilbo’s story. He was one of the main forces thwarting Sauron for over 2000 years. The Númenoreans: the high men of the west; gifted Saruman with Orthanc which was of their making. Now known as Isengard.
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saruman is actually trying to doublecross sauron. He wants the ring for himself. He thinks he can control it. The little orcs around saruman are from mordor - sauron's orcs sent to help saruman but also to spy on him. The big fighting orcs - the uruk hai - are loyal only to saruman.
Orcs are like that. But its why saruman's orders are a bit vague - to avoid sauron's orcs knowing what saruman is doing. The movies dont make this bit of the story very clear. But notice that, while saruman knows where the fellowship is he never lets Sauron Know.
You ever find out who that was
In my head cannon I like to think that the mouth of Sauron went on to be the next “dark lord”, like the Sauron to Sauron’s Morgoth. So he’s just another step removed and less powerful and less divine power. Showing more so how the world is kind of becoming less magical, in the same way as how the Valor themselves fought against Morgoth, then it’s just the up to elves and men with the help of the Istari to defeat Sauron, and any further potential threats would be fought by men and elves until eventually it’s just the men fighting another evil man and there’s no more magic.
The Witch King was pretty much already Sauron's Sauron, as he was the Dark Lord's greatest servant and carried on the work of evil after Sauron's defeat by the last alliance.
He even founded his own evil empire in Angmar, from which he led a generations-long campaign to destroy the northern Dunedain nation of Arnor, before returning to Mordor to continue the war against their southern cousins in Gondor.
And that war even to the very end was mostly organized and fought by the Witch King and his forces based in Minas Morgul, rather than Sauron & the forces of Barad Dur.
@@Malisteen Not to mention how “the Necromancer” initially popped up in Dol Guldur, many thousands of stone throws away.
Makes sense. Didn’t the Mouth possibly survive? I know he wasn’t killed like in the movies. But it’s also worth noting that Numenorean descendants don’t seem to survive as long as their forebearers, and likewise over time their blood will increasingly be diluted via marriages and the like with common men.
Love your style, especially when you go off on a tangent and then quickly summarize the tangent with a little humor thrown in so as to get back to the main topic.
Anyways....
So entertaining! Don't ever change!
Peace:)
I think the version where the Mouth of Sauron is extremely old feels better. Remember, he isn't just a great sorcerer in his own right, but he's one of the Dark Lords favourites. We've seen that the One-ring can greatly extend mortal life just as an unintended side-effect, and 'life extension' was one of Saurons main lures to ensnare the Numenoreans, so I think that between them they could extend the MoSs life to a crazy extent - although the price he paid was something very few would consider worth it.
And, he would need a huge amount of time to pass to forget his own name. It's possible to break somebody quiet quickly through hardship and torment, but that's not what happened to The Mouth. From his PoV he was living-his-best-life! And it takes a lot longer than 68, or even 168 years to become a powerful sorcerer as well.
Just a thought.
He has an epic deep dive video by TheRedBook channel and it goes hand in hand with one of his epic Nazgûl videos too. It shows just how horrifying they really were.
Nice video! That section about Berúthiel got me thinking though...
Berúthiel and her cats may be Tolkien reusing an old idea for the original character of Sauron, who was originally called Tevildo. Now Tevildo was the Prince of Cats, and the mightiest of the cats, and occupied a fortress which Beren and Luthien went to- their Luthien defeated Tevildo, took that golden collar which made him big and powerful, and thus caused all the other cats to shrink in size and lose their power.
Tevildo was an unpleasant character, known as the Prince of Cats and controlled many great cats. Berúthiel was an unpleasant character, known for her cats and appeared to mind-control her cats as well. So it's either a coincidence or Tolkien refashioned Tevildo's character to create Berúthiel!
It was probably a mix of that character idea and the friend of his he mentioned in an interview who REALLY didn't like cats but always got followed by them anyway
you cant equate tolkien and Numenorians blood running true with blood purity in our world. This is about a different species really, it is a group that were men but were changed by the gods to be stronger smarter bigger and live longer (really become a middle people between elves and men) So when he talks about blood running true it means the super human traits are still there. It is more like if you breed wolves with dogs and a few generations down the line pointed to a puppy that was more aggressive and bigger and said that dogs wolf blood runs true.
I think its important to point this out, Tolkien was the opposite of a blood purist, guy had the guts to send a letter to the Nazi calling them out on antisemitic practices.
Thanks for that observation, that's extremely important to point out.
@@rogersmith3657 Thanks! I feel like we often try to put our societal issues into societies of the past and even fictional societies like this. For example the tolkien society debating how atheism is treated in middle earth. I mean in a world where the big bad is a literal fallen angle and a race of people are constantly leaving to go live among actual gods and can remember fighting along side them, I find it hard to believe atheism is wide spread lol.
@@mike-mz6yz as an atheist scum in real life , i can confirm that i would DEFINITELY be believing in shit if i witnessed stuff like an Elf leaving no trails in snow or a Troll who turns to stone thanks to holy sunlight...
Tolkien's universe contains many beings that would be considered divine by our standards. The wargs themselves are implied to be bred from the maia/hounds of the first age. So if i was a regular Joe Slankton living near Bree , i could very well witness a lot of supernatural looking stuff and that would be plenty of reason to believe in supernatural stuff.
I wish real life rivers had actual spirits like Goldberry and grandpas like Tom :D
@@OljeiKhan exactly! lol in our world even those that believe in God tend to believe he/it/them were way more involved thousands of years ago. In ME they are alll around. I mean an angle literally goes around launching fireworks at parties.
I agree about the river spirits and such too. Its one reason ive always wished the greek gods were real. Having different gods to represent ever aspect of life would be really cool. So would the idea that if you walk through the woods there is a chance you could run into nypths or water spirits or any other magically beings.
Too bad our world is so plain.
@@mike-mz6yz I heard in India you can still get run over by Bronze-Age priests, they kept a lot of their old gods and beliefs, and still use ancient manuscript books when creating their idols to the old traditional specifications exactly, even painting the eyes last as that is the moment the deity enters the statue.
I have been binging all of these lore videos so far you and nerd of the Rings are my favorites. Such in depth explanations. Thank you.
I'm really glad you're enjoying the videos!
Fantastic video! I learned so much. The cat queen Beruthiel is a new favourite villain of mine for sure.
I should be used to it by now, but every time I learn about more Middle Earth, history, I feel astonished at Tolkien's level of detail.
Thank you for the video! 😻 (I only rarely find use for this emoji!)
I watched this a year ago and again just now. I love that I can repeat watch your content and still learn.
On Beruthial. Tolkien must have had a crazy cat lady neighbor! LOL
thank you for your research these videos greatly help me understand the lore of tolkien in a bite size portions
this is the first video i have seen from you and i must say that i fell in love with the way you explain things. i don't feel overwhelmed by all the details you choose to present. listening to your voice is like having a conversation over tea with a friend. i'm looking forward to your future projects!
Everytime I think of Black Numenoreans.....I get heart burn and bubble guts. Lolol Thanks again Mellon. KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK!
ECTHELION!
So, about the Black Numenorians fear of death; is it just a coincidence that before the Battle of Pelennor Fields Théoden shouted to Rohirrim "Death!" ?
"His fate is a mystery"
Me: "time to write a non canonical book of Mordu"
I'd love to see some fanfiction for Berúthiel. Maybe something where she's either misunderstood or intentionally maligned by the Gondorians. Seems like a legitimate take on her legend.
I just realized the parallel between Beruthiel and her cats and Sauron and the rings. Nine black cats and nine rings for men and one white cat The One Ring to rule them.
I had the exact same thought. 9 mortal cats doomed to die , one cat to eat all of the meow mix!! lol
And the nine fellowship members to counteract the nine Nazgûl. Numerology was powerful and the elves knew it.
Telvido was before he became Sauron. Probably while he was simultaneously Gorthaur.
Awesome video! Been a Tolkien fan for decades and your channel is great! I didn’t know Umbar was a full fledged kingdom, I always imagined it as a city-state. Love that I’m still learning! Thanks!
I don't see Aragorn decapitating the Mouth of Sauron during a so-called "parlay" as dishonorable. The way I see it, Aragorn HAD to do it. The Mouth and his poisonous words were literally sucking the courage right from his men's hearts. They were already shrinking back and Aragorn saw this. In fact his first words to his men after decapitating the Mouth in the movie - "I see in your eyes the same FEAR that would take the heart of me", kind of prove my point. Decapitating him as he did was a way to show his men that there was literally NOTHING to fear from the Mouth OR from Sauron because they once again have a bad-ass Numenorean King leading them. It gave his men heart and bolstered their courage, especially with the speech that followed. Besides, had Aragorn ridden to the Black Gate alone - there is no doubt they would have done much worse to him regardless, because the servants of Sauron have NO HONOR.
Dave, there's so much respect for your work here. If you haven't noticed by your self, you are by far the greatest teller of Tolkiens' lore, even from these big channels with hundreds of thousands of views. Please work on your promotion of your channel too, it's a shame if there is people who haven't discovered you yet. Your voice, your rythm, your details and also your script on how to unravel these things for us seems to be with "μεράκι", as we say in Greece with this word that's not translated to other languages. Be well, we expect to see many of your thoughts come to life in your videos.
I started watching a different channel by way of endless scroll and immediately switched back to Dave. He's fantastic.
So grateful for the upload!!
Keep it up, Rainbow Dave! 🌈
Great channel. Great content. Would deffo like to hear more about Sauron and his relationship with Numenor. Keep it up.
It's so weird how on the nose Tolkien's names are, especially for evil characters. Like, the language exists in universe. We would expect an educated person in Numinorean aristocracy to be aware they were naming their kid the elfish phrase for "dark evil" or whatever. How metal were these parents??
Maybe the elvish phrase came after the original name? Just a thought :)
As metal as were we...
I think he did this intently to show how history shapes language. Kind of like Benedict Arnold, in 1000 years someone might look at that character and say why did his parents name him after a term meaning traitor? nobody should have trusted him. When really his actions gave the term meaning.
The term came from the name
I think this was the name given to him after he was kidnapped
And they worship me as a divine god.
They worshiped your daddy morgoth
Actually, Sauron disguised himself and had the Numenoreans worship Morgoth.
@@KuonilerariLoufanwald akkkshually
And then you decided to ignore the “Don’t put all your eggs in one basket.” proverb.
Hey sauron wanna hear a joke?
Eye don’t know
U are so good at explaining,this body of work,I've tried to study with other channels, but I get lost in the many, descendants of the characters kin,but u walk it down,step by step in a way I can understand.I think u sir.
I know I'm very late to comment on this video, but part of me always hoped there would be a surviving member of both the Black Numenoreans and the sons of Castamir to redeem the Dunedain of Umbar. Imagine if the Heir of Isildur met a long distant relative with blood from the Dunedain of Umbar and Gondor.
Even if they were to become rival kingdoms again, I hope that their mutual love for Numenorean ideals could lead both kingdoms to gaining an understanding for one another as sucessor states to the legendary kingdom of Numenor.
Sadly, any such redemption would probably have to come through Aragorn. Remember, the Black Numenoreans were left behind in Umbar when Ar-Pharazon arrived to conquer and carried Sauron captive back to Numenor. At that point, they were followers of the Usurper and desired immortality just as he did. Umbar is separated from the Northwest of the continent by Mordor, which was impassible even when people believed it was empty. It is likely that the first news they received of the Foundering came from Sauron himself. If not, the first they would have heard was when Gondor finally made it down to the mouth of Anduin in the first attempt to take Umbar generations later. Not exactly something to put them in a listening or redeeming mindframe. Though there may have been travelers up and down Anduin who brought the news to them.
The Numenoreans, especially the Faithful, in terms of height, were almost as tall as the Spartan super soldiers from the Halo games. I know this game is non-canon, but in Shadow Of Mordor, there was a Black Numenorean known only as The Tower. He was the embodiment of Sauron’s cruel and sadistic nature, but his height was comparable to that of the Numenoreans of old. It actually makes me wonder if he was purely of Numenorean blood.
The Tower should be canon, Tolkien would be proud of such an abomination!
@@killer2434 Tower may not be canon but The Mouth of Sauron was one of the Black Númenóreans so there you go.
Shadow of Mordor. Shadow of War. 2 greatest games in History.
Rule of Opinion of games is MINE! And No Others!
This was fascinating. Thank you so much.
Glad to have you back creating new content Dave! Good luck with the new job and new city~ hope it all works out for ya! Just happy to have you back~ I tried all the other channels while you were doing your thing and, lol~ well here I am writing this, lol~ you just explain it very well my friend, so thank you!
Thanks so much for your lovely words! I really appreciate it!
Thanks Rainbow Dave!
My pet fanfic regarding the black numenoreans/the mouth of sauron/the fourth age:
Canoncially: In the Kin-Strife, Castamir the Usurper, who was of the royal line of Gondor, rose up against the rightful king on the basis of racial prejudice against the royal blood being mixed with the middle men of Rhovanion. He was defeated after a brief reign, but we know that his sons fled south and became the rulers of Umbar.
We know that these rulers would later mix with the men of Harad, but I propose that there was a faction of the line of Castamir that protested against this mingling, and returned in secret to try and preserve their 'supremacy' among the 'purer' nobility of Gondor. They were servants of the shadow, and late in the third age offered up a child to the newly returned Sauron.
This child became the Mouth of Sauron, who was the lieutenant of Barad-dur, in line to be Sauron's second-in-command in Orthanc - Just as Sauron had been the lieutenant of Morgoth. But when Sauron fell, the Mouth survived the battle of the Morannon, and his line re-infiltrated Gondorian society. Down the generations they passed the secret title of "Lieutenant" to their leader, regarding themselves as the heirs to the shadow.
They would be behind the plot in The New Shadow, and continue to operate even after its thwarting. Being "mostly true" descendants of the Numenorean line of kings, they could also produce an 'anti-Elessar' to challenge or even intermarry to the kingship of the Re-united Kingdom.
I would like to see the racial supremacist elements within Tolkien's world confronted head-on by a narrative which understands their folly. Perhaps the last remnants of the world of the Numenoreans must finally burn down, and notions of supremacy based on ancient bloodlines be ended, before men can start a new age in equality.
I think you would love the "Age of The Ring" mod for Batle for Middle-Earth II, while the vanilla game made Angmar a faction with the black numenorians (as you mentioned) the mod made an entire new faction (the "Haradwaith") while they house the easterlings and harads they also house black numenorians as its elite tier troops. All together with a roster of Harad heros, among them a hero claiming to be the rightfull king of the numenorian legacy. Although it may be completely made up they do seem to follow the lore than other games wich usually lump them together with Angmar as a default.
Nice work with these videos. My compliments!
I do like that the crazy not-so-cat-loving lady gets put on a boat with cats. Critters probably didn't like water much. I feel bad that Ulmo has to deal with her.
Wow! The movies missed out on a lot of important factions places and things
Loved it Dave. especially the summary resisting our fears and staying to True in our faith. Really enjoyed this as I do all your content. Stay groovy 🌈 Dave
Every time i hear numenor the numa numa song becomes a thing in my head.... lol
i will show myself out :P
The greatest reason for the eclipse of the Black Numenoreans after the Akallebeth was that they lived in the most heavily populated lands of Middle Earth and intermarried with the twilight men and lost their culture and heritage; whereas the Faithful lived in Gondor and Eriador which was not heavily populated, except for the forefathers of the Dunlendings who did not want much to do with the Dunedain. Numenor lived on in Gondor and Arnor, but not in Harad, amongst the Southrons, or the Mumakani.
*Actually Numenoreans lived in Harad, too, whether it be Umbar or the settlements south (the areas which Earendil explored during the First Age which lead to his encounter with Ungoliant albeit that was in the Book of Lost Tales) ~ One of the three last settlements of Elros' bloodline was in Harad, when Castamir's sons, grandsons and great-grandsons mated with the women of Harad ~ Also one of the reasons Arnor fell - unlike Gondor and Umbar - was due to their lack of intermarriage with non-Numenoreans and Middle Men ~*
@@BartAllen Harad was much more heavily populated than Eriador and Belfalas, Lebennin, Anorien, and Ithilien were more or less desolate because the Eldar were in those regions and the twilight men feared them.
@@BartAllen That is why the Faithful settled in Gondor, to be nearer to the Eldar and let's be honest much better real estate with very few locals to be upset with their new neighbors. What happened later with Gondor and the middle-men came after the establishment of the Gondorian Empire of the Sea Kings.
The number 9 seems to be very important in the Legendarium. From the rings to Frodo’s fingers at the end of the tale.
The number 9 recurs in Norse mythology, which may be where Tolkien got it from.
i completely agree with your take on PJ sullying Aragons honour during the parlie with the LT of barudur , his character in books is totally counter to this kinda action imo
That's why they cut the scene presumably.
Totally forgot theres a non theatrical version without this scene tbh
17:50 - Dude. Unarmed messenger? They aren't there to negotiate. In the books, Gandalf uses that moment to stall for time, but there was never a version of that reality where he was going to make it. There's Parlay that involves intention to make real peace with an amicable host, and then there is this; Sauron sending a messenger to poke and prod his guests into a state of hopelessness and disarray after just recently storming on their territory after thousands of years of deceit and destruction both under Morgoth AND solo...
Look. There is no parlaying. It wasn't dishonorable. It was a return message to a far crueler Sauron; "We reject your offer and substitute our own. Come out and fight."
And Aragorn probably sees a Dark Numenorean as a traitor to his own kind, and wouldn't be wrong, so again, I'm cool with it.
Also...Dude. Don't break your spine trying to bend around the term "blood." It's a term used across history before an understanding of genetics to explain personal traits such as strength, vitality, endurance, intellect and willpower, as well as to discern the source of physical traits presented.
Would you say "Faramir and Denethor bore clear genetic similarities in appearance to Numenoreans?" No. It's a grounding statement that shows us today what Numenoreans back then roughly looked like on average.
It's literally the same statement with different words. Relax. Context is key, and if anyone tells you different, they are wrong.
I believed that the Mouth of Sauron had died in the final battle leading the armies of Sauron. Such a loyalist is not just going to up and leave their lord in their greatest need--unless commanded.
Mouth of Sauron, as depicted in the short scene in the book, was a coward.
Canoncially: In the Kin-Strife, Castamir the Usurper, who was of the royal line of Gondor, rose up against the rightful king on the basis of racial prejudice against the royal blood being mixed with the middle men of Rhovanion. He was defeated after a brief reign, but we know that his sons fled south and became the rulers of Umbar.
We know that these rulers would later mix with the men of Harad, but I propose that there was a faction of the line of Castamir that protested against this mingling, and returned in secret to try and preserve their 'supremacy' among the 'purer' nobility of Gondor.
They were servants of the shadow, and late in the third age offered up a child to the newly returned Sauron.
This child became the Mouth of Sauron, who was the lieutenant of Barad-dur, in line to be Sauron's second-in-command in Orthanc - Just as Sauron had been the lieutenant of Morgoth. But when Sauron fell, the Mouth survived the battle of the Morannon, and his line re-infiltrated
Gondorian society. Down the generations they passed the secret title of "Lieutenant" to their leader, regarding themselves as the heirs to the shadow.
They would be behind the plot in The New Shadow, and continue to operate even after its thwarting. Being "mostly true" descendants of the Numenorean line of kings, they could also produce an 'anti-Elessar' to challenge or even intermarry to the kingship of the Reunited Kingdom.
I would like to see the racial
supremacist elements within Tolkien's world confronted head-on by a narrative which understands their folly.
Perhaps the last remnants of the world of the Numenoreans must finally burn down, and notions of supremacy based on ancient bloodlines be ended, before men can start a new age in equality.
It's always sad for me how they change the vision of Angmar into the dominion of Black Numenoreans, there was never a population of these people in the North, instead Angmar (apart from being inhabited by orcs) was home for Angmarim Hillmen which in many games for eg. are forgotten and no body really remembers them, that's why I love the depiction of Angmarim in War in the North, at this the game is really accurate.
Remember Angmar!
I do not understand how you have so few followers...content you produce is golden
Thanks!
Nice work dude thanks
Love all the videos
He skipped how the rebels who fought the Kin Strife against the true king of Gondor fled to Umbar when defeated. Not sure why he'd skip that, seems relevant. They were allied to Umbar, provided new Numenorean blood to that in Umbar and likely increased the hatred of the Umbar rulers against Gondor.
Yeah I'll do a whole video on the King-strife one day
I have to say blood purity in middle earth is an important factor of all the realms. It's why Aragon is superior to Théoden in the third age, due to his blood line to the great island of Numenor. 🙂
It's a bit misleading to say that Numenoreans aren't from Middle Earth, since all their human ancestors both before and during the First Age were indeed from Middle Earth. Even their Elven ancestry, passed down from Elwing of the Teleri (Sindar) and Idril Celebrindal of the Noldor, both came from Middle Earth.
I didn’t know that rose warriors on the giant elephants in Return of The King were descendants, some maybe, of Umbar. Cool.
Subscribed! Loved it!
great channel. interesting vids. i expect your subs will skyrocket
I'm enjoying your videos on Tolkien. Thank you for your efforts. One question I had was in ROTK before they set out for The Black Gate someone says they are barely the size of Gondor's vanguard at its height (I don't remember the line word for word). I'm wondering just how big the army was if the vanguard was 6 or 7 thousand.
outstanding Dave :)
Just like a cat to do something just to annoy you 😂 Probably knocked over the palatiri any chance they got.
The reason cats go to people that don't like cats is due to cats perceiving that looking at them is an invitation. People that don't like cats tend to keep an eye on the cats, hoping they will stay away. The cat sees them looking and comes over to see what they want. Ironic huh? lol
Take Care All
That's some real shit
It's the opposite actually. They see direct eye contact as threatening, as many animals do. People who don't like cats don't look at them.
@@bobboonah Actually it's dogs/canines that consider looking them in the eye as a threat/challenge. Cats actually take your posture and attitude into consideration. Unless you have a menacing posture the cat looks at is as an invitation.
@@jackschwartz1783 Everything I have read says a stranger staring directly at a cat will be seen as a threat.
@@bobboonah They must not have ever had a cat then, plus I've never seen that in anything I've read about cats. You may want to find a better source of info.
Just goes to show that even the best of us can turn out to be the worst of us (something we really need to keep our eyes out for in this day and age).
Sorry, video was too nice, so second comment. (:
Adding onto the thing about the Oath Breakers: Watching them swarm the Mûmakil in the Pelennor Fields like bugs during the movie was both one of my favourite and most hilarious parts. xD
Yeah, I wasn't cheering Aragon cutting the Mouth of Sauron's head off. I literally said out loud "so we're chopping envoy's heads off during a parlay?"
Wasn't one his noblest moments.
@Abe Froman Thanks for that. Where would we all be if you weren't here to tell us it was a movie? Likely going on thinking we were watching a documentary. 🙄
If the envoy is an arrogant evil insulting jerk then yes,we are chopping..at least i would.
@@PanzerShrek94 that's f'cking dumb
Beruthiel was a goth queen?
Sorry, but I take issue with "The Numenoreans were not from Middle-earth....", Hurin and Huors kin, whose descendants became the Numenoreans travelled west across Middle-earth and met the Noldorin in Middle-earth. So they did come from Middle-earth through the houses of Hador, Beor and Haleth and were given some gifts for the actions of their houses by the Valar.
Great videos
The long life of the Numenoreans was granted by the Valar as a reward to the men who fought with the elves during the wars against Morgoth in the 1st Age (most men sided with Morgoth). Before this they lived ordinary lifespans for men.
Okay that's what I thought He left that out! I won't give him a disc like just for that but yeah that's important. Good point
I thought the Numenorians were long lived because their first member was an elf who gave up his immortality but still had and passed on long life
@@Dante-vf4sd nope, he wasnt the father of the nation lol in the first age a few clans of men went west to where the elves lived while the rest stayed in the east where melkor was worshiped. The ones who went west mostly ended up becoming friends with the elvish kingdoms and fought along side them (some fought for the dark lord too)
Those who survived the war were given gifts for the sacrifice. After the war when the world was reshaped Eru created a new huge island in between middle earth and valinor and settled these men there giving them and made them super human pretty much. They then selected elros as king (the half-elf who picked humanity)
@@Dante-vf4sd I believe his ancestors did live long even for numenoriens though because of his heritage. Like 200 years for normal ones and 400 for his line.
@@mike-mz6yz Ah I see, yes that makes sense, I'm getting the two things mixed up, Aragorn was long lived for both reasons.
Where the hell have you been? Great video, 👏
Superb 🔥
Maybe Berúthiel is sindarin for crazy cat lady
Berúthiel shown as liking rather puritan aesthetics gives the idea that this was what the Black Numenoreans were like. It may also show us what Tolkien, a catholic, thought of puritan aesthetics. :)
I feel like you just let a bunch of horses out of the coral and I'm left trying to gather them up one by one. Thank you? LOL
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At 20:30 you write that the kin-strife is the reason Osgiliath is a ruin. That is very vaguely worded and not wholly true, the Dome of the Stars and the Palantír within were destroyed and the city was sacked. The Kin-strife was only the initial decline for Osgiliath as the capital of Gondor, with the king's court being moved in TA 1640, almost two centuries after the Kin-strife. Osgiliath was not abandoned until TA. 2475, almost a millennium after the kin-strife.
The mouth of Sauron actor is Zed from legend of the seeker
He is also chum (a shark) in finding Nemo
@@mlebrooks that's awesome!
Would it be possible that the mouth of sauron was gifted a lesser ring? The statement that he was trusted by Sauron and knew his mind makes me believe he is much older as Sauron works in hundreds of years of dozens, it could have extended his life but not yet turned him into a wraith. And if he becomes a wraith, well it has worked for Sauron in the past the Nazgul???
were there any good black numenorean characters? (i just love redemption arcs)
There's absolutely no evidence to support this either way, but I like to imagine the Mouth of Sauron being de-radicalised after the fall of Barad-dur, and at least finding some redemption in a life absent the Dark Lord's influence. Other than that there's not really any good Black Numenroeans, although after the downfall of Sauron, the men of Harad did make peace with Aragorn and lived in peaceful co-existance with Gondor. So it is possible.
@@tolkienuntangled interesting theory
There is no redemption for these people. They literally worship evil and breed it down to their descendants. Even when Numenor was still above the water, the Faithful and King's Men were already separate.
Now when Arnor and Gondor were formed a lot of Numenoreans eventually turned to the Black Numenorean side, but no one came the other way.
There is the term "fallen" for a reason. No one gets back up.
Of course we are talking about Numenoreans, not others like Easterlings or Haradrim, who Sam imagines might actually believe that their cause was just
@@tolkienuntangled the Men of Harad are not Black Numenoreans, so they fought for Sauron as an ally on equal standing. The Mouth probably killed himself or fled so far east no one found him, as he was clearly old and set in his ways
@@SantomPh well good thing there was no mention then, haha
I'd like to believe that even those who were bred for evil have a chance at redemption.
thanks for the answers :)
I’m down for working through the questions arising out of the age of the mouth of Sauron. My instincts tell me that 66 is not quite old enough. Next time you’re in NYC look me up and we’ll have lunch and try to figure it out!
Canoncially: In the Kin-Strife, Castamir the Usurper, who was of the royal line of Gondor, rose up against the rightful king on the basis of racial prejudice against the royal blood being mixed with the middle men of Rhovanion. He was defeated after a brief reign, but we know that his sons fled south and became the rulers of Umbar.
We know that these rulers would later mix with the men of Harad, but I propose that there was a faction of the line of Castamir that protested against this mingling, and returned in secret to try and preserve their 'supremacy' among the 'purer' nobility of Gondor.
They were servants of the shadow, and late in the third age offered up a child to the newly returned Sauron.
This child became the Mouth of Sauron, who was the lieutenant of Barad-dur, in line to be Sauron's second-in-command in Orthanc - Just as Sauron had been the lieutenant of Morgoth. But when Sauron fell, the Mouth survived the battle of the Morannon, and his line re-infiltrated
Gondorian society. Down the generations they passed the secret title of "Lieutenant" to their leader, regarding themselves as the heirs to the shadow.
They would be behind the plot in The New Shadow, and continue to operate even after its thwarting. Being "mostly true" descendants of the Numenorean line of kings, they could also produce an 'anti-Elessar' to challenge or even intermarry to the kingship of the Reunited Kingdom.
I would like to see the racial
supremacist elements within Tolkien's world confronted head-on by a narrative which understands their folly.
Perhaps the last remnants of the world of the Numenoreans must finally burn down, and notions of supremacy based on ancient bloodlines be ended, before men can start a new age in equality.
In the context of LOTR novel, Tolkien wrote that the blood of Numenor ran true in Framir & his father unlike his brother Boromir. Therefore I understood he meant character wise, wisdom & insight rather than purity of race or anything related to genetics. Because otherwise Boromir would also be pure.
or that genetic traits that is expressively numenorian (taller in stature, longer of life) were present in faramir but wasn't in boromir, punnet square and all that.
Great work!
when I hear about Beruthiel’s design choices I’m like, honestly, werk.
The Black Numenorians are the coolest faction in the Legendarium. I like that not all the Numenorians were such goodie tooshoes. It makes so much sense that the greatest of men would also be the greatest threat to Middle Earth.
Black Numenoreans have badass fanart.
Like Mordu has awesome fanart outside the movie.
He actually btw has fire around his head.
I think the more "pure" blood can more be described as being longer lived. Its not a racial superiority thing so much as an effect of genetics where random combinations create occasional benefits. Kind of like not being born with a predisposition for cancer. Doesn't make you a better person, you just lucked on on the genetic level.
Well its not really genetic though, it is a blessing from the creator in this world for fighting against Melkor. So I dont think its really genetic. It is interesting too see how it travels down the generations though. I see it more as when the Dunedain were blessed they were created into a different race like elves are different from men. They are over a foot taller then the average man they are stronger they are smarter and live longer.
to go into a different universe I would compare it more to the amazons. They were normal human women then the greek gods gave them gifts that made them something different.
I mean if your race lives 5x longer than everybody else, and your average height is 4-7 inches taller, there is definitely some racial superiority going on there lol. It's not like real races where there are no significant differences like that except color, which doesn't make anybody better (except getting sunburnt, I'm way better at getting sun burnt than black people)
They are superior in the long life category.
The Numenoreans had Elvish blood, so knowing that Elves are immortal (unless killed or wasting away from grief), if their blood is mixed with “lesser” Men, it would extend their lives. The length of that would depend upon the pureness of the original Numenor blood and the amount of Elvish blood in them.
@@hammerheadfxdwg2018 I thought this for a long time, but honestly im not sure if it is true anymore. The numenoreans have long life as a gift from Eru and it starts to go away when they start to fall from grace so to speak. Even though they are still full numenorien. So im not sure aragorns kids for example have an expanded lifespan.
The only example we have of elves and men mixing and it resulting win longer life is Elros and Elrond, but they given the choice of picking elf or human because of what their parents did(saving the world pretty much) and that passes down to Elronds kids. Im starting to think long life is more a gift from the gods then a bloodline thing. Could be wrong though.
I'm really curious about those dark secrets the men of Gondor wished to keep hidden lol. What on earth are those men of Gondor getting up to?
I love that line! it shows how tolkien didnt see the good guys as always good.
I wouldn't say I Umbar was a Kingdom, an independent state does not need to be a Kingdom, we know that Black Numenoreans although having control over coasts of Harad were a minority and various chieftains of Black Numenoreans rose in power among Haradrim, which means that it wasn't really a Kingdom in Second Age but it probably was an Independent State(of course dependent of Sauron's influence indirectly). Herumor and Fuinur are mentioned just as great Lords of that lands having power on those territories and there is no mention of it being a separate Kingdom, I really do not believe that it was a Kingdom ever, maybe in the Third Age when Castamir's decendants ruled it had rose to the rank of Kingdom though it is not sure we know that it was an independent state but that time too, so if there is no mention of a kingdom or a king I think we shouldn't say that.
Of course it's just my own opinion, Tolkien didn't gave many information about the southern and eastern territories so there is a lot of free space for speculation.
Racial purity in Numenorean society means lives longer. Middle men blood means life span dilution. Probably also phenotypic change.
Which happens among endogamous communities.
Tolkien was a product of his time.
If you mean the term "Black Numenorians" it is not as I understand about color of their skin, but about their ideology.
The "Black" Numenoreans were not called so in the Second Age they were simply Numenoreans or later King's men.
This name came from their worship of Sauron and Melkor more than any phenotype. Ironically "Black" Numenoreans could be actually "purer" in their genetics than people of Gondor and Arnor as they were conquerors and tyrants and unconcerned by things like sanity, incest or morality and very concerned by the things like immortality, lifespan, power and superiority.
Lessening of the lifespan is another topic.
To go a bit into it, Numenoreans were made superhuman by pretty much divine blessing and maintained teachings of the elves and Valar. But that blessing was finite and to an extent tied to Numenor's very existence. Essentialy, more they went against Valar and their teachings, shorter their lives became.
Prior to Tar-Ancalimon (who made the split between King's men and Faithful) the kings of Numenor usually lived around 4 centuries, past that the lifespan of the kings starts to decline rapidly with final king of Numenor starting to feel decline towards death by the age of 200. In contrast Elendil (of The Faithful) was fit enough to duel Sauron at the age of 322 (and BTW unlike in the movie Gil-Galad and Elendil decisively defeated Sauron in that Duel before succumbing to their wounds). After the fall of Numenor even the Faithful started to decline (line of the kings prior to Aragorn having lifespans around 150-250 years).
Dilluting of the Numenorian blood in case of Gondor was more a case of a demographic shift more than anything else. When you read history of Gondor it has its share of catastrophic defeats, plagues etc. and Numenoreans had pretty low birthrate so the population got replenished by Middle men and while the cultural shift was not that severe the ethnic shift was much more pronounced so by the end of TA only a small percentage were truly Numenoreans the rest may have had Numenorian generations back but were for intents and purposes of the lifespan Middle men.
There's no parlay after what Sauron just did to Gondor and Rohan. Honor was not to be expected from Argorn.
The cat lady reminds me of a Greek tale of aprofoundly wicked princess who was banished on a boat with her, I believe 10, followers (attendants or ladies in waiting, if memory serves) that landed on an island called Alba that was inhabited by demons with whom the Greek women mated, creating monstrous offspring.
Yeah. Even Aragorn was afraid to speak of her les her spirit comes to haunt them for reals.
Thank you thank you thank you!
Tarraniar may have been the man who became the Witch King IMO.
what Aragorn did chopping the mouth of Saurons head of is where we get the phrase don't kill the messenger , a little known fact !
If the envoy is an arrogant evil insulting jerk then yes,we are chopping..at least i would.
@@PanzerShrek94the book was way more epic at the gate. No simple head chopping. Instead was lots of swords&magic
Love your stuff dave. Absolutly love. But. And i feel slow for asking but. At the begining and end of every video. What is it u are saying. It sounds beautiful
I find myself in the Tolkien hole and now I'm here!
Racial purity? Nahh we’re too cool for that shit on this channel. I love you, Dave ❤
The men of Numenor were so old and tall that when Eru Ilúvatar went to destroy them he just gave them prostate cancer.
This dude said *‘a ton’* of cats, then said there were only ten. xD
I feel called out. :')
Is that foreshadowing - nine ring wraiths and 1 white wizard?
Interesting video as always, thanks for making them. Something I have wondered about for a while is, in the movie at the gates of Mordor, Frodo, Sam and Gollum are almost caught by two soldiers from a large group entering the black gates, who were they?
That scene isn't really in the books, but I believe those guys are supposed to be the Eastelrings of Rhun. Along with the Haradrim (and corsairs) the Easterlings were Gondor's most persistent enemies. In fact even after the defeat of Sauron, they remained enemies of Gondor for a long time, and continued hostilities against Aragorn.
@@tolkienuntangled Yes, that makes sense, thank you! =)
When I first crossed the bridge again, it wasn't for 9 months having been closed....
Maybe a few off shoots of the line of elros?
Death ain't no gift Tolkien.
Never was, never will be.
No more than submission and blind humility are virtue.
You seem to not understand the actual “gift” part of death. The spirits of Men depart Ea after death for a purpose that Eru Illuvatar never tells anyone. This is his gift to mortal men, whereas elves can never leave the confines of the universe. It’s this special purpose beyond the universe that is the gift, and the idea of trusting in the plan of Eru is like that of a Christians faith in god and Heaven. Tolkien was Catholic after all and even said that his books were a fundamentally religious and catholic work. From that perspective death is very much a gift, as it offers the chance to join ones creator beyond the confines of a universe where sadness, pain and tragedy exist.
@@brendanheald9067the Valar themselves and the elves grew envious of the men and their gift. As they go to the timeless halls of Eru. Where Morgoth can no longer follow them. ❤
@@brendanheald9067except they’re not an allegory to that. Fuller context is on the page known as Tolkien and myth lovers. You’ll be blown away. Using full context not just from Tolkiens own words but lots of other letters and such included.
@@Makkaru112 I know their not an allegory (I don’t think there’s a person alive who doesn’t know Tolkien hates it) I was just using it as a comparison for why it would be seen as a gift
so good 🤩
What was all the hate on “pure numenorian blood” about?
no idea.what's wrong with not mixing bloods?
@@PanzerShrek94 see the OP's reply above to the comment by Weng Chiang, pointing out how anti-racist Tolkien was: "... even by the standards of his own time, Tolkien was markedly anti-racist. He described the contemporary 'race doctrine' as "pernicious and wholly unscientific"". The idea of "pure bloods" is of course complete laughable hogwash, all peoples on Earth are descendants of other peoples mixing over the past 300,000 years or so; anyone telling you that there's such a thing as any "pure blood" is embarrassing themselves by their ignorance.
@@PanzerShrek94welll their blood was blessed so it became more and more diluted but got realigned with the children from Aragorn and Arwen. Linking all the bloodlines of highestborn elves from the awakening of the elves down to the best of the Edain. Hador, Haleth, Bëor etc.
no time for honor when you're trying to get sauron to focus on you