Huge Pogacar fan. But…funny how you can determine hemoglobin levels already with a simple CBC that is cheaper and already used in hospitals all around the world without a need for the carbon monoxide rebreathing 🤭. Just a simple blood draw that you can do daily to track hemoglobin levels. But what do I know, I’m just a doctor 😂.
@@dominikabbuhl4018 aside from clinical settings, I guess if you are trying to monitor adaption to various training stimuli (eg. altitude, heat, sleep high/train low etc) an accurate measurement of what you are trying to achieve (increasing Hb mass / Hb availability for oxygen transport) is probably beneficial (for professional athletes) 🤷… however, such measurements may also be of benefit in potentially shady practices - I’d need to see more studies on ‘natural’ adaptions to altitude though …
@@rhodriwilliams2891 fair enough a CBC is a proxy that helps give you an idea of what the total Hgb mass is based off of the concentration. And then you could get a theoretical estimate of total Hgb mass by using various basic equations to get a rough estimate of total blood volume. Maybe the CO rebreathing method will get you a more accurate estimate. But it does seem kind of fishy that the top two cyclist in the TdF have been using this method while a number of cyclists in the pro peloton have called the test out as being fishy. Also crazy the gains that Matteo Jorgenson has made this past year by switching from Moviestar to Jumbo. I mean it wasn’t that long ago that Mike Woods caught Jorgenson on that climb during the TdF. Now he’s sticking with Jonas and Tadej for a good chunk of these long climbs. Again I love watching these guys and the excitement of this year has been good for this sport. But it does makes you wonder.
A carbon monoxide rebreathing device is meant to be used in clinical medicine to calculate the diffusing capacity of your lungs (DLCO), not used to measure hemoglobin. If they want to know hemoglobin levels they would just measure that directly from blood. Yes your DLCO will increase as your hemoglobin levels go up, but you can measure hemoglobin levels without administering carbon monoxide. So in general this seems highly suspicious, and points to the administration of carbon monoxide for a perceived benefit rather than conducting a test with the carbon monoxide.
If you load up a rider's hemoglobin (Hb) with carbon monoxide (CO) that renders the Hb-CO molecule incapable of transporting oxygen (O2) from the lungs to rest of the body. Hb Active Sites have a greater affinity for CO than for O2. So, CO locks up the Hb Active Sites making them unavailable for the transport of O2. While CO Rebreathing may stimulate more Hb production (red blood cell production/release), this happens because the Hb-CO causes a lowered O2 concentration in the blood which sends a signal to the body to "produce/release more RBCs into the blood". It's a complicated topic and there's more to it than mentioned here. I'd be interested in knowing if there is a proven net gain in O2 carrying capacity and performance increase in riders who have undergone CO Rebreathing. And if there is a net gain, how long does it last?
agree with this - i rode to the top of the Pico Del Aguila which @ 3500m above sea level has a visceral effect on breathing. It takes me a week to acclimatise to Mexico City at 2200m before i can actually ride this climb productively. The segment to look for on strava is "Puente Colmex - Valle de las Cantimploras". Distance 25.77km Elevation Gain 1,189m Avg Grade 4.2% Lowest Elev 2,378m Highest Elev 3,470m Elev Difference 1,093m 🇲🇽
@@neilk22 yes I frankly don’t get why there are no more Mexican riders coming. Living there and growing at that levels. It is just pure economics and the young’s doing nothing or going for other stuff
These provided subtitles could use an editor - mostly good, but the team and rider names are a bit messed up, unless there's a new rivalry between "bag Gacha" and "Jonas Finger guard" :)
Some one is always pursuing an advantage, however small or temporary. It reminds me of the old days of F1. The smart teams would read all the rules for what was not mentioned. Nothing about an auxiliary fan than just happens to produce down-force, let's make one. The difference being the bikes can be thoroughly scrutinized but the rider cannot. The effects of the efforts required to complete a 3 week long tour on the athlete is hard to judge. To compete in top form day after day must be very stressful. Also, the riders maintain minimal body mass which would make recovery difficult. Proof of taking things too far is serious health long term or even death, not so long ago with EPO abuse and, in 1968 Tommy Simpson. And the rider who was unbeatable on the tour whose name is erased from the record books.
@@darringrey4329 You are correct. I was giving an example of another time and drug where a rider died as a result. There things are managed better now. Yet the records keep falling... power lifting, XC skiing, cycling, etc. It took years for the damage of drug use in Germany and Russia 50 years ago to come to light. And yet hormones continue to be misused in the name of science. My life is better because of medication but effects need to be managed by taking only what is necessary. Giving drugs to healthy people to be faster, stronger and further in a pursuit of more and to remain competitive is madness.
@@darringrey4329 great quote from the pelissier brothers after withdrawing after a fight on the road with Henri Desgrange in 1924, in the bar showing the reporter all manner of pills* "in short, we run on dynamite"
So basicly its artificial high altitude training? XC skiers have used that for decades and they have rooms with trainers where you can set oxygen and co2 to match what ever altitude you want.
it's done when they are already at altitude, so the effects pile up. you saw how they shattered the records in the mountains. whoever did not abuse it up to now, will consider abusing it
@@eljanrimsa5843 so they make body react like they are training higher than existing altitude. In the end effect is exactly the same. Question is more matter of time. How fast body reacts that kind of training because CO tacs blood's iron ions way harder than O2 or CO2.
As long as haematocrit stays below 50 this method will not be detectable. I suspect this is already utilized for other endurance sports. Interesting how both Carbon Monoxide use and Carbon dioxide tolerance are now used to improve performances.
The irregularities in Jonas coming back from his injury so strong for the TdF, to me, stood out way more than any other performance in this years TdF. Id like to see a lie detector result for his coach/manager in terms of his use of PEDs to get back to this performance.
What about "totally clean" Pogi, who is legit top 20 sprinter in the world, beating old polytoxicomaniac Pantani's record climb by 4 minutes? Clean vs EPO, testosterone, blood transfusions etc. with blood so thick and heart beat so low that these riders had to wake up in the middle of the night to exercise not to die in their sleep?
Unless I'm really missing something, your explanation of CO use to measure hemoglobin makes no sense. When I get a blood test, they measure red/white cell count, hemoglobin, hematocrit, MCV (mean corpuscular volume), MCH (mean corpuscular hemoglobin) MCHC (mean corpuscular hemoglobin concentration). None of this requires carbon monoxide. As a performance enhancer sure, it makes sense. I think it's playing with fire, but my understanding is that it works.
From my own understanding, they use CO to lower the oxygen intake of the cyclist to simulate high altitude condition. Then they measure the hemoglobin to determine the response of the body in low oxygen condition.
@@fourtheboys96 I'm 50 years past my last formal physiology course, but I see no reason to suppose that the response to CO is in any way equivalent to training at altitude. My guess is it's just a smokescreen (cough cough) for the real intent.
Basically another form of doing epo, altitude camps and the results hide or can hide blood doping and we all know just how much time is now spent in altitude camps, what is stopping these teams taking a few bags of oxenated blood and then putting them back into a rider galf way through for example a tdf? And any abnornal levels can then be explained off by doing altitude camps
Exactly the UCI doesn't look at the passport in altitude camp so your blood values aren't checked. I've seen this story . I don't believe in Fairytales anymore. Not to mention he is a smoker and absolutely destroyed everyone in not 1 but 2 grand tours with ease. Stop it
A hematocrit value is the percentage of red blood cells in the blood, and while it can be determined from a simple blood draw it is not a good measure of a training effect on red blood cells since it is sensitive not only to changes in the volume of red blood cells and but also the total blood volume. Hydration status is just one of many parameters that can effect total blood volume and thus make the hematocrit value less sensitive to training adaptation. CO rebreathing as a method determining the amount of hemoglobin - read red blood cells - is a better method than a blood draw because it is not sensitive to changes in total blood volume. So nothing weird about using CO rebreathing compared to a blood draw since it is a simple, fast and safe method.
The girl never turned up 😅😅 There are freely available scientific papers out that show CO inhalation can increase haemoglobin by 5 percent. So riders can use this device instead altitude training training or micro dosing on Epo . Sounds like riders go altitude training then enhale Co and say my haemoglobin is up because of altitude 😅
Winning in professional sports is about physiology, training, equipment and smarts, which includes pushing the boundaries. F1 teams are famously looking for loopholes around the regulations to gain an advantage. Cycling is the same and is truly a team sport in the 21st century.
Offer some credit to escape collective for breaking the story. I think WADA needs to update its rules, there's no way CO induced hemoglobin production should be allowed.
The CO supposedly only reduces the capacity temporarily, the body responds by creating more haemoglobin and then when the CO 'unbinds' (after 5 days or so) the rider has more O2 capability - that's the theory anyway
@@mrvwbug4423 A controlled concentration of carbon monoxide will bind to some of the hemoglobin molecules in the blood creating a degree of hypoxia. This hypoxia stimulates the body esp the kidney cells responsible for producing natural EPO which stimulates the bone marrow to produce more red blood cells. It acts the same way altitude does. High altitudes have less oxygen concentration so you become hypoxic esp with exercise. This hypoxia stimulates the same pathways to create more RBC’s than normal. If you have more RBC’s at the time of the competition then your body can carry more oxygen to your muscles so you have greater stamina. There are additional benefits like better lactate clearance etc but increasing the oxygen carrying capacity of your blood is the big one.
But it isn't testing Hb mass in tracer tests, it's the well known effect of CO doping to boost erythropoietin! The test is not controversial it is the use of CO for doping!
Grande, Tadey. Il suo è solo un fenomenale miglioramento tecnico e atletico, rispetto all'anno scorso. È il più forte di tutti e gli auguro possa durare per molto tempo.
it is not forbidden, so they could do it without violating any rules - but honestly, I don't see any benefits. This method gives similar adaptations as altitude training, and as all pro teams do several altitude trainings camps over the year anyways, and the haematocrite must not exceed 50 - what's the point? They get as near to 50 as possible without the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning already and they cannot get higher with that risk (also risking weeks off the training for recovery). Doping searchers look for every possible new method (and they have to!) but not everything what is possible makes sense and is done
By breathing pure oxygen before a stage you will unbind some of the hemoglobin molecules. Your level of haematocrite will be higher than 50 but along the stage this will decreased. And that it's doping following the AMA rules. To actually prevent that you need to take a blood sample before the stage and not after
Pogachar was confused when asked about this. Like anyone who hasn't heard of it would be confused. When they explained it to him in the team, he told the journalists the next day. If there was something bad about it, he would have told them the story about the test straight away. Anyone with a bit of sense must understand it that way. Why do they call it rebreathing? Rebreathing means inhaling carbon dioxide. You cannot re-inhale carbon monoxide. That's stupid. Anyway, when I heard about breathing carbon monoxide, I thought to myself, what the hell is that? But it makes some sense. That oxide will bind strongly to hemoglobin and the body will defend itself by making more hemoglobin. But is this faster and cheaper than a high-altitude stay? Digesting poison gas to eventually improve one's body? It's kind of wild. However, athletes increase themselves hemoglobin in the blood. If we have a problem with that, wouldn't it be nicer to lower the permitted hemoglobin level? Then it wouldn't make sense to increase it. Those who would have it naturally high would have to lower it in order to compete.
@@ArnyRimmer Apparently there is some evidence that controlled carbon monoxide inhalation improves the effects of altitude training. I have seen the studies referenced but have not read them so grain of salt maybe.
wouldnt make sense during the tour because there is no immediate effect, the effects are more like spending time at altitude. The adaptation takes time and needs a period of recovery after. And since they spend most of their time at altitude anyway its highly questionable whether there would be a place for the misuse of the CO-rebreathers.
@@olefoerster2462 if it is not used during the tour, why would they report it as if it is an illegal thing to do. and the moment they report this, it opens a lot of amateur to use this kind of method DIY mode and that would be scary to their health. no doctors just them doing this.
I thought carbon monoxide was just used to knock out some haemoglobin for 12 hours over night to simulate altitude with the advantage of being able to train with full haemoglobin next day. Stimulating natural epo without compromising training efforts
CO is basically an ingredient of air. You should not be allowed to ban it. In swimming and diving, as they are legitimate sports, too) training with restricted oxygen intake (therefore increased carbon mono and dioxide) is perfectly normal. In freediving there are training techniques for CO adaptation. I believe it’s normal human body reaction to normal natural substance. Although a little demanding from cyclist.
High level swimmers have been doing this for a decade. Hypoxic swim training Hypoxic or swimming sets with limited breathing ensuring low oxygen levels to train the body to perform in low oxygen level environments.
"We inject EPO to just below 50 hematocrit level"...... "We stay at altitude until the carbon monoxide rebreather says we've reach a high haemoglobin level." 😂
Someone needs to test the level of performance enhancement. If it's really effective, they probably are doing it. If it's not that effective, they probably aren't.
The fishy thing: all this hassle only to "see" something. Well if you "see" that not very much was built up, then what? Seeing effects is interesting and necessary of course, but it seems to me that the actual creating of the effect is the first priority of professional cyclists. And something else that got my attention. Pogacar seemed nearly "invincible" during the tour, giving the impression that he did not even have to go the max to beat Vingegaard. However at recent criterium in the Netherlands where he was supposed to perform he did not show up, due to "extreme fatigue"....
I bet you haven't - levels have dropped dramatically in the past decade or so. It's now impossible to shut yourself in your garage and kill yourself by CO poisoning in a modern car.
When riders are beating the EPO generation up climbs then something is up. Almost four minutes on Pantani. Lance Armstrong would've been 11th on one of the mountain stages. This means the blood passport is either ineffective or being falsified.
I have been watching fallowing the sport since 2007 Alberto contador era, I have said it then, I will say it now. All of these guys are dope ing in one way or the other, The kind of performance they put out there especially back to back is just impossible just on training are carbon bike with better tyers I have been supporting rabobank since old days But The guy punchured his lungs, 3/4 months back and now he is the 2nd best climber Also if you have COVID or I'll just go home, what the hell is a TUE. doesn't mean I will stop supporting my team or stop watching. But at least like bodybuilding say we all are doped and continue, than saying fake things like oh no I am clean
I guess if you intoxicate yourself with CO and then do iperbaric chamber, you could indeed get a benefit. The problem with this theory is that, in any case it would change enough the biological passaport
Well, of course co has a greater affinity with haemoglobin than o2, therefore, in the presence of both compounds, haemoglobin will bind more readily with co than o2, causing the desired effects of hypoxia that is also achieved at altitude.....hypoxia prompts the physiology to produce more red blood cells which, when in normal conditions, will account for increased o2 pick up & delivery as is epo. It's a compound that is forced into the physiology of the athlete & regardless of the delivery system, it is introduced to create an environment that doesn't occur naturally. It's doping but legal until it gets prohibited. Co levels can easily be tested as the gas lingers in bodily tissue
Its crazy. this needs to be very well controlled. in very low concentrations CO binds very quickly to iron present in the hemoglobin and you need to get lots of pure oxigen later to exhange it back to O2. they used to have little birds on cage back in the day (where no CO sensor existed) in the labs using CO. once the bird is dead, time to run ...:P... True story
Doping including this method does not create a level training and performance field. Armstrong for example had a low hematocrit. Thus him taking epo had a much larger boost than others. Same thing here. It’s not the same as altitude training. Basically it’s like HGH or steroids. Ban it or sports will become meaningless and sordid. 😊
if it's not dodge, then is it the new metric for entry into the pro stage? so what if you bonk a 10k tt in sub 18 mins sorry mac your hemoglobin is shit hit the bin? but if it's a test for constructing diet for riders the the molecular levels in modern medicine no harm if everyone can access it?
A poll of people who don't have enough information to make an informed decision, some with an agenda, isn't of much use unfortunately, on this topic or others! :) Here maybe the participants were in fact agenda-less, since if you don't really have enough info to make an intelligent decision, you flip a coin, which is pretty much what the poll shows.
Why does everyone always worry about doping in cycling. This will always happen and always has. Froome was as doped as anyone, so were all previous winners. Riders who are competitive all dope or they would all be mechanics in some bike shop. The UCI have no interest in catching top riders at the risk of sponsorships and tv rights.
Seriously Haemoglobin can be measured very accurately on an analyser in 30 seconds, rather than this rigmarole …. Just using to make sure their Haemoglobin is high enough, no need for it ….practice should be banned imho explains the times…
This “news" has no value other than the intimidating title itself -- which could have already misled some people who don't have time to read/watch through. It's a test method, no difference than draw a tube of blood putting it into a machine and wait for several hours. This is even a non-intrusive test that won't manipulate your body. It's like that riders use "bio impedance testing" to test body fat doesn't imply that riders are using electronics shockwaves to lose fat (or the possibility of that). It's a TESTING.😂
Nothing to see here, cycling has moved to a new clean era. Better bikes, better training, better nutrition and 120g carbs per hour explain these alien results.
People don't see doping because they don't want to see it. Tadej not doing Olympics because controls are different, or are you truly telling me he would want to win all three grand tours, and gold medal in a single year. He says nothing illegal....relative to UCI controls, but UCI doesn't want a repeat of Lance, where we take the wins away, but nobody to give them to as everyone else was doping as well. More than 6.5 watts per kilo, come on???!!!
I can tell you've never done any physical competitions in your life, or at least never been good at them. You need to time your peak phases very precisely to do well at that level. If he did the Olympics he wouldn't win all three tours
Plenty of people are searching for doping in cyclists. Every journalist, youtuber, and twitterer would love to make a name for themselves by finding concrete evidence. Your strawman argument is meaningless. Try again.
You think this legal, undetectable technique isn't abused? Hahahaha It stimulates natural epo, which increases hemoglobin in the blood (which they measure with the rebreather test to make sure it's working!)
Public: "You are doping." Lance: "Nope. Never dope in my life. Proof it." UAE, Visma, Israel: "Yes, we did use carbon monoxide rebreather." Question: why would you dope if you are telling people you use it?
Yeah, maybe everyone else is doping, but that doesn't excuse what he did to Greg Lemand and others defending himself. You may not remember the heinous shit he said about his accusers (who turned out to be dead on) but I do, and he doesn't deserve a fu**ing thing.
The issue with Lance was never really about the doping. Treat people like shit and it comes back to bite your ass. Too bad they didn't ask for more of their money back.
Huge Pogacar fan. But…funny how you can determine hemoglobin levels already with a simple CBC that is cheaper and already used in hospitals all around the world without a need for the carbon monoxide rebreathing 🤭. Just a simple blood draw that you can do daily to track hemoglobin levels. But what do I know, I’m just a doctor 😂.
🤔 how would you accurately determine the total Hb mass and blood volume by a CBC test?
@@rhodriwilliams2891 Apart from the technicality of the analysis, why would you event want to measure those things.
@@dominikabbuhl4018 aside from clinical settings, I guess if you are trying to monitor adaption to various training stimuli (eg. altitude, heat, sleep high/train low etc) an accurate measurement of what you are trying to achieve (increasing Hb mass / Hb availability for oxygen transport) is probably beneficial (for professional athletes) 🤷… however, such measurements may also be of benefit in potentially shady practices - I’d need to see more studies on ‘natural’ adaptions to altitude though …
@@rhodriwilliams2891 fair enough a CBC is a proxy that helps give you an idea of what the total Hgb mass is based off of the concentration. And then you could get a theoretical estimate of total Hgb mass by using various basic equations to get a rough estimate of total blood volume. Maybe the CO rebreathing method will get you a more accurate estimate. But it does seem kind of fishy that the top two cyclist in the TdF have been using this method while a number of cyclists in the pro peloton have called the test out as being fishy. Also crazy the gains that Matteo Jorgenson has made this past year by switching from Moviestar to Jumbo. I mean it wasn’t that long ago that Mike Woods caught Jorgenson on that climb during the TdF. Now he’s sticking with Jonas and Tadej for a good chunk of these long climbs. Again I love watching these guys and the excitement of this year has been good for this sport. But it does makes you wonder.
@@rhodriwilliams2891 perhaps altitude camp themselves are used to disguise other things. 🤔😝
A carbon monoxide rebreathing device is meant to be used in clinical medicine to calculate the diffusing capacity of your lungs (DLCO), not used to measure hemoglobin. If they want to know hemoglobin levels they would just measure that directly from blood. Yes your DLCO will increase as your hemoglobin levels go up, but you can measure hemoglobin levels without administering carbon monoxide. So in general this seems highly suspicious, and points to the administration of carbon monoxide for a perceived benefit rather than conducting a test with the carbon monoxide.
Remember Floyd Landis and his homemade hypobaric chamber that he probably never used except as a cover story?
this. this is all bullshit they are saying here to to to "baffle em with bullshit". all on the sauce.
If you load up a rider's hemoglobin (Hb) with carbon monoxide (CO) that renders the Hb-CO molecule incapable of transporting oxygen (O2) from the lungs to rest of the body. Hb Active Sites have a greater affinity for CO than for O2. So, CO locks up the Hb Active Sites making them unavailable for the transport of O2.
While CO Rebreathing may stimulate more Hb production (red blood cell production/release), this happens because the Hb-CO causes a lowered O2 concentration in the blood which sends a signal to the body to "produce/release more RBCs into the blood".
It's a complicated topic and there's more to it than mentioned here. I'd be interested in knowing if there is a proven net gain in O2 carrying capacity and performance increase in riders who have undergone CO Rebreathing. And if there is a net gain, how long does it last?
So high altitude without the school trip?
Get them training in Mexico City and it will be exactly that!!! 2100 m altitude and tons of smog every day! Or better get a good Mexican rider!!!
agree with this - i rode to the top of the Pico Del Aguila which @ 3500m above sea level has a visceral effect on breathing. It takes me a week to acclimatise to Mexico City at 2200m before i can actually ride this climb productively. The segment to look for on strava is "Puente Colmex - Valle de las Cantimploras". Distance 25.77km Elevation Gain 1,189m Avg Grade 4.2% Lowest Elev 2,378m Highest Elev 3,470m Elev Difference 1,093m 🇲🇽
They already have Isaac Del Torro lmao
@@neilk22 yes I frankly don’t get why there are no more Mexican riders coming. Living there and growing at that levels. It is just pure economics and the young’s doing nothing or going for other stuff
Is this why some of the old timers in the early days smoked a cigarette when they took a break during the TDF????😁
It all makes sense now!
😂😂😂😂
I know a guy who smokes cigars a few times a week and is an absolute monster on the pedals. Makes sense now
No, it’s because they were smokers addicted to nicotine.
Gitane was a sponsor - you have to use their products!
These provided subtitles could use an editor - mostly good, but the team and rider names are a bit messed up, unless there's a new rivalry between "bag Gacha" and "Jonas Finger guard" :)
Jonas finger guard isn't how you spell it?!?!?!!
Yeah thats the auto-generated subtitle from RUclips... no one is writing that
@@inkjazz it's not the auto-generated ones, there's a set of "real" subtitles on this video.
Amazing video, good storytelling, good music, good edtion. Just 10/10. Thanks for the value!
Some one is always pursuing an advantage, however small or temporary. It reminds me of the old days of F1. The smart teams would read all the rules for what was not mentioned. Nothing about an auxiliary fan than just happens to produce down-force, let's make one. The difference being the bikes can be thoroughly scrutinized but the rider cannot. The effects of the efforts required to complete a 3 week long tour on the athlete is hard to judge. To compete in top form day after day must be very stressful. Also, the riders maintain minimal body mass which would make recovery difficult. Proof of taking things too far is serious health long term or even death, not so long ago with EPO abuse and, in 1968 Tommy Simpson. And the rider who was unbeatable on the tour whose name is erased from the record books.
I thought he died from amphetamines ,also wasn't EPO made but Amgen early 90s ??
@@darringrey4329 You are correct. I was giving an example of another time and drug where a rider died as a result. There things are managed better now. Yet the records keep falling... power lifting, XC skiing, cycling, etc. It took years for the damage of drug use in Germany and Russia 50 years ago to come to light. And yet hormones continue to be misused in the name of science.
My life is better because of medication but effects need to be managed by taking only what is necessary. Giving drugs to healthy people to be faster, stronger and further in a pursuit of more and to remain competitive is madness.
@@darringrey4329 great quote from the pelissier brothers after withdrawing after a fight on the road with Henri Desgrange in 1924, in the bar showing the reporter all manner of pills* "in short, we run on dynamite"
maan, hard to know people in the bike pro platoon are cheating like on Amstrong times or when froome uses salbutamol ....so bad, so unfair!!....
So... ”soon they have to give back the Seven Tours to Lance Armstrong”
Please send all TDF trophies back to Lance Armstrong/The Move
You right !
Should of never taken them in the first place. Kind of embarrassing they couldn't find anyone to give them to. That tells the story..
So basicly its artificial high altitude training? XC skiers have used that for decades and they have rooms with trainers where you can set oxygen and co2 to match what ever altitude you want.
it's done when they are already at altitude, so the effects pile up. you saw how they shattered the records in the mountains. whoever did not abuse it up to now, will consider abusing it
@@eljanrimsa5843 so they make body react like they are training higher than existing altitude. In the end effect is exactly the same. Question is more matter of time. How fast body reacts that kind of training because CO tacs blood's iron ions way harder than O2 or CO2.
That is my own understanding too.
I need that in my Zwift room!
statistically only 68% of all tour winners have ever been caught doping at some point in their career - nothing to see here
Take off the shades during recording. Seriously.
Oakley paid for them to be on :)
Sounds like a "you" problem
Might be sunny when he’s filming calm down lol
Why?
Relax bro
As long as haematocrit stays below 50 this method will not be detectable. I suspect this is already utilized for other endurance sports. Interesting how both Carbon Monoxide use and Carbon dioxide tolerance are now used to improve performances.
plus other things that help in so unfair way....that will explain many things about the big gaps not credible in that riders....
The irregularities in Jonas coming back from his injury so strong for the TdF, to me, stood out way more than any other performance in this years TdF. Id like to see a lie detector result for his coach/manager in terms of his use of PEDs to get back to this performance.
lie detectors dont actually work lol
@@flyingchic3n lies!
What about "totally clean" Pogi, who is legit top 20 sprinter in the world, beating old polytoxicomaniac Pantani's record climb by 4 minutes? Clean vs EPO, testosterone, blood transfusions etc. with blood so thick and heart beat so low that these riders had to wake up in the middle of the night to exercise not to die in their sleep?
@@geuros Lies!
@@geuros u r totally right.....cheaters dirty riders!!!
Unless I'm really missing something, your explanation of CO use to measure hemoglobin makes no sense. When I get a blood test, they measure red/white cell count, hemoglobin, hematocrit, MCV (mean corpuscular volume), MCH (mean corpuscular hemoglobin) MCHC (mean corpuscular hemoglobin concentration). None of this requires carbon monoxide. As a performance enhancer sure, it makes sense. I think it's playing with fire, but my understanding is that it works.
From my own understanding, they use CO to lower the oxygen intake of the cyclist to simulate high altitude condition. Then they measure the hemoglobin to determine the response of the body in low oxygen condition.
@@fourtheboys96 I'm 50 years past my last formal physiology course, but I see no reason to suppose that the response to CO is in any way equivalent to training at altitude. My guess is it's just a smokescreen (cough cough) for the real intent.
After such performance on the tour 2024, it’s obvious there is massive doping in the tiers 1 group, it was a good show, what do we want?
Basically another form of doing epo, altitude camps and the results hide or can hide blood doping and we all know just how much time is now spent in altitude camps, what is stopping these teams taking a few bags of oxenated blood and then putting them back into a rider galf way through for example a tdf? And any abnornal levels can then be explained off by doing altitude camps
Some microdoses of this and that every night will make the icing of the cake.. Rg
Exactly the UCI doesn't look at the passport in altitude camp so your blood values aren't checked. I've seen this story . I don't believe in Fairytales anymore. Not to mention he is a smoker and absolutely destroyed everyone in not 1 but 2 grand tours with ease. Stop it
A hematocrit value is the percentage of red blood cells in the blood, and while it can be determined from a simple blood draw it is not a good measure of a training effect on red blood cells since it is sensitive not only to changes in the volume of red blood cells and but also the total blood volume. Hydration status is just one of many parameters that can effect total blood volume and thus make the hematocrit value less sensitive to training adaptation. CO rebreathing as a method determining the amount of hemoglobin - read red blood cells - is a better method than a blood draw because it is not sensitive to changes in total blood volume. So nothing weird about using CO rebreathing compared to a blood draw since it is a simple, fast and safe method.
The girl never turned up 😅😅
There are freely available scientific papers out that show CO inhalation can increase haemoglobin by 5 percent.
So riders can use this device instead altitude training training or micro dosing on Epo . Sounds like riders go altitude training then enhale Co and say my haemoglobin is up because of altitude 😅
A car went past me last night spewing fumes, after id finished choking, I dont think my performance improved that much...
Winning in professional sports is about physiology, training, equipment and smarts, which includes pushing the boundaries. F1 teams are famously looking for loopholes around the regulations to gain an advantage. Cycling is the same and is truly a team sport in the 21st century.
Offer some credit to escape collective for breaking the story. I think WADA needs to update its rules, there's no way CO induced hemoglobin production should be allowed.
CO reduces O2 capacity in the blood, how on earth could it produce a performance gain and not a performance loss?
The CO supposedly only reduces the capacity temporarily, the body responds by creating more haemoglobin and then when the CO 'unbinds' (after 5 days or so) the rider has more O2 capability - that's the theory anyway
@@roadccsuper quick and good response
@@mrvwbug4423 A controlled concentration of carbon monoxide will bind to some of the hemoglobin molecules in the blood creating a degree of hypoxia. This hypoxia stimulates the body esp the kidney cells responsible for producing natural EPO which stimulates the bone marrow to produce more red blood cells. It acts the same way altitude does. High altitudes have less oxygen concentration so you become hypoxic esp with exercise. This hypoxia stimulates the same pathways to create more RBC’s than normal. If you have more RBC’s at the time of the competition then your body can carry more oxygen to your muscles so you have greater stamina. There are additional benefits like better lactate clearance etc but increasing the oxygen carrying capacity of your blood is the big one.
@@Chiller11the tour has 21 stages. As long as they did not use it during the tour, it would be just fine.
@@roadcc The 'theory' is silly. It's not real Bioenergetics is it? Sorry to use a big word on you, but please, stop the bs. 🙄
Wait, I'm gonna need more than zero explanation for hour breathing carbon monoxide could help
I would be very interested to know pog's hematocrit and other blood values
I’m gonna guess they’re off the charts. Alien numbers.
Closer to Riis than Bardet, that's for sure.
Well what is the max value and what is pogačar s value . I would be interested to know
Does it have any affect on a riders vo2 max , for the medical passport ?
sometimes yes directly....but when provides that manipulation are doing that with testing behind to knows how to apply the doses to cover up....
But it isn't testing Hb mass in tracer tests, it's the well known effect of CO doping to boost erythropoietin! The test is not controversial it is the use of CO for doping!
All the doctors involved have a questionable background
Does anyone know where I can get a carbon monoxide rebreathing device before I take my next hemoglobin test?
Following on this one.
Your car?😆
Grande, Tadey. Il suo è solo un fenomenale miglioramento tecnico e atletico, rispetto all'anno scorso. È il più forte di tutti e gli auguro possa durare per molto tempo.
it is not forbidden, so they could do it without violating any rules - but honestly, I don't see any benefits. This method gives similar adaptations as altitude training, and as all pro teams do several altitude trainings camps over the year anyways, and the haematocrite must not exceed 50 - what's the point? They get as near to 50 as possible without the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning already and they cannot get higher with that risk (also risking weeks off the training for recovery). Doping searchers look for every possible new method (and they have to!) but not everything what is possible makes sense and is done
By breathing pure oxygen before a stage you will unbind some of the hemoglobin molecules. Your level of haematocrite will be higher than 50 but along the stage this will decreased. And that it's doping following the AMA rules. To actually prevent that you need to take a blood sample before the stage and not after
Pogachar was confused when asked about this. Like anyone who hasn't heard of it would be confused. When they explained it to him in the team, he told the journalists the next day. If there was something bad about it, he would have told them the story about the test straight away. Anyone with a bit of sense must understand it that way. Why do they call it rebreathing? Rebreathing means inhaling carbon dioxide. You cannot re-inhale carbon monoxide. That's stupid. Anyway, when I heard about breathing carbon monoxide, I thought to myself, what the hell is that? But it makes some sense. That oxide will bind strongly to hemoglobin and the body will defend itself by making more hemoglobin. But is this faster and cheaper than a high-altitude stay? Digesting poison gas to eventually improve one's body? It's kind of wild.
However, athletes increase themselves hemoglobin in the blood. If we have a problem with that, wouldn't it be nicer to lower the permitted hemoglobin level? Then it wouldn't make sense to increase it. Those who would have it naturally high would have to lower it in order to compete.
@@ArnyRimmer Apparently there is some evidence that controlled carbon monoxide inhalation improves the effects of altitude training. I have seen the studies referenced but have not read them so grain of salt maybe.
Captain Gullible over here..
As long as they are not using it during the tour, it would be just fine.
wouldnt make sense during the tour because there is no immediate effect, the effects are more like spending time at altitude. The adaptation takes time and needs a period of recovery after. And since they spend most of their time at altitude anyway its highly questionable whether there would be a place for the misuse of the CO-rebreathers.
@@olefoerster2462 if it is not used during the tour, why would they report it as if it is an illegal thing to do. and the moment they report this, it opens a lot of amateur to use this kind of method DIY mode and that would be scary to their health. no doctors just them doing this.
Whats the difference using co device and doing altitude camp?
It's another example of cycling being ridiculous - and looks bad to outsiders......
I thought carbon monoxide was just used to knock out some haemoglobin for 12 hours over night to simulate altitude with the advantage of being able to train with full haemoglobin next day. Stimulating natural epo without compromising training efforts
Apparently Israel cycling doesn’t know how to benefit from this device properly.🥴🤪🤣
😂
Maybe they don't do all the other stuff, I don't know
i'll start smoking a cig before a ride. gives me 50w!
ekimov was on lances podcast and said when he joined panasonic he was the only rider who didnt smoke lmao
CO is basically an ingredient of air. You should not be allowed to ban it. In swimming and diving, as they are legitimate sports, too) training with restricted oxygen intake (therefore increased carbon mono and dioxide) is perfectly normal. In freediving there are training techniques for CO adaptation. I believe it’s normal human body reaction to normal natural substance.
Although a little demanding from cyclist.
High level swimmers have been doing this for a decade. Hypoxic swim training Hypoxic or swimming sets with limited breathing ensuring low oxygen levels to train the body to perform in low oxygen level environments.
"Only for testing"??? So the teams say...??? Would an impartial source say the same???
Yes I’m going to put a pipe to my exhaust pipe, turn on the engine, breathe hard and if I don’t die I will go out for my weekend group ride
FKT
You would have to wait a few days for your body to compensate by creating more blood cells.
You probably wouldn't die if your car is a fairly new one. Emission controls are effective.
Many decades ago, some professional cyclists smoked an occasional cigarette. Could this have been a low tech early method of body hacking?
"We inject EPO to just below 50 hematocrit level"...... "We stay at altitude until the carbon monoxide rebreather says we've reach a high haemoglobin level." 😂
Someone needs to test the level of performance enhancement. If it's really effective, they probably are doing it. If it's not that effective, they probably aren't.
Carbon monoxide is legal but not with a HIF stabilizer.
The fishy thing: all this hassle only to "see" something. Well if you "see" that not very much was built up, then what? Seeing effects is interesting and necessary of course, but it seems to me that the actual creating of the effect is the first priority of professional cyclists. And something else that got my attention. Pogacar seemed nearly "invincible" during the tour, giving the impression that he did not even have to go the max to beat Vingegaard. However at recent criterium in the Netherlands where he was supposed to perform he did not show up, due to "extreme fatigue"....
It's true! I had been rebreathing carbon monoxide directly on the roads for years now🤣
I bet you haven't - levels have dropped dramatically in the past decade or so. It's now impossible to shut yourself in your garage and kill yourself by CO poisoning in a modern car.
So you saying smoking cigarettes can lead to a performance gain?
A cure in search of a problem.
When riders are beating the EPO generation up climbs then something is up. Almost four minutes on Pantani. Lance Armstrong would've been 11th on one of the mountain stages.
This means the blood passport is either ineffective or being falsified.
I have been watching fallowing the sport since 2007 Alberto contador era,
I have said it then, I will say it now.
All of these guys are dope ing in one way or the other,
The kind of performance they put out there especially
back to back is just impossible just on training are carbon bike with better tyers
I have been supporting rabobank since old days
But The guy punchured his lungs, 3/4 months back and now he is the 2nd best climber
Also if you have COVID or I'll just go home, what the hell is a TUE.
doesn't mean I will stop supporting my team or stop watching.
But at least like bodybuilding say we all are doped and continue, than saying fake things like oh no I am clean
I guess if you intoxicate yourself with CO and then do iperbaric chamber, you could indeed get a benefit. The problem with this theory is that, in any case it would change enough the biological passaport
Well, of course co has a greater affinity with haemoglobin than o2, therefore, in the presence of both compounds, haemoglobin will bind more readily with co than o2, causing the desired effects of hypoxia that is also achieved at altitude.....hypoxia prompts the physiology to produce more red blood cells which, when in normal conditions, will account for increased o2 pick up & delivery as is epo. It's a compound that is forced into the physiology of the athlete & regardless of the delivery system, it is introduced to create an environment that doesn't occur naturally. It's doping but legal until it gets prohibited. Co levels can easily be tested as the gas lingers in bodily tissue
Why do you need to measure if not to take any action. Would the action would be natural? stay longer at the camp? I really doubt it.
What kind of drug do they use to have high performance?
ESA's. IYKYK.
@@DurianriderCyclingTips Nice Channel man . I subscribed .
Good for them that all the vehicles in the peloton release carbon monoxide so everyone is technically doing it
Levels of CO in modern carx is so low as to be practically non-existent. And some teams are using EVs, so there's a fire risk instead.
Its crazy. this needs to be very well controlled. in very low concentrations CO binds very quickly to iron present in the hemoglobin and you need to get lots of pure oxigen later to exhange it back to O2. they used to have little birds on cage back in the day (where no CO sensor existed) in the labs using CO. once the bird is dead, time to run ...:P... True story
Climbing quicker than Pantani using tighter fitting clothing and more aero bikes and carbon monoxide rebreathing. Nah doesn't sound dodgy at all...
Carbon monoxide rebreathing? What's next? Drinking your own urine?
Funny this gas can kill you, but here it is a help for cycling performance. How does that work??
Doping including this method does not create a level training and performance field. Armstrong for example had a low hematocrit. Thus him taking epo had a much larger boost than others. Same thing here. It’s not the same as altitude training. Basically it’s like HGH or steroids. Ban it or sports will become meaningless and sordid. 😊
if it's not dodge, then is it the new metric for entry into the pro stage? so what if you bonk a 10k tt in sub 18 mins sorry mac your hemoglobin is shit hit the bin? but if it's a test for constructing diet for riders the the molecular levels in modern medicine no harm if everyone can access it?
No I can’t see, you didn’t show any way that this could be used to enhance performance. All you did was say it.
A poll of people who don't have enough information to make an informed decision, some with an agenda, isn't of much use unfortunately, on this topic or others! :) Here maybe the participants were in fact agenda-less, since if you don't really have enough info to make an intelligent decision, you flip a coin, which is pretty much what the poll shows.
Why does everyone always worry about doping in cycling. This will always happen and always has. Froome was as doped as anyone, so were all previous winners. Riders who are competitive all dope or they would all be mechanics in some bike shop. The UCI have no interest in catching top riders at the risk of sponsorships and tv rights.
I hope you have evidence for the Froome claim, or there could be a libel writ winging its way to you.
Went is 😊something is to good to be true,
So why have a blood passport if they can huff on carbon monoxide?
😅 how come it's a big thing? The amount of CO I take in while commuting..... doesn't make me faster.
Seriously Haemoglobin can be measured very accurately on an analyser in 30 seconds, rather than this rigmarole …. Just using to make sure their Haemoglobin is high enough, no need for it ….practice should be banned imho explains the times…
This “news" has no value other than the intimidating title itself -- which could have already misled some people who don't have time to read/watch through. It's a test method, no difference than draw a tube of blood putting it into a machine and wait for several hours. This is even a non-intrusive test that won't manipulate your body. It's like that riders use "bio impedance testing" to test body fat doesn't imply that riders are using electronics shockwaves to lose fat (or the possibility of that). It's a TESTING.😂
Nothing to see here, cycling has moved to a new clean era. Better bikes, better training, better nutrition and 120g carbs per hour explain these alien results.
I've never seen crabs on the G train (and I live right near the G)
@@StevenBornfeld 🤣 typo now fixed 😄
@@G-Train Well, we may still be neighbors (I'm in Windsor Terrace)
People don't see doping because they don't want to see it. Tadej not doing Olympics because controls are different, or are you truly telling me he would want to win all three grand tours, and gold medal in a single year. He says nothing illegal....relative to UCI controls, but UCI doesn't want a repeat of Lance, where we take the wins away, but nobody to give them to as everyone else was doping as well. More than 6.5 watts per kilo, come on???!!!
Seems like everyones wearing blinders nowadays. Stuff's more unbelievable than Lance days.
I can tell you've never done any physical competitions in your life, or at least never been good at them. You need to time your peak phases very precisely to do well at that level. If he did the Olympics he wouldn't win all three tours
Plenty of people are searching for doping in cyclists. Every journalist, youtuber, and twitterer would love to make a name for themselves by finding concrete evidence. Your strawman argument is meaningless. Try again.
@@Cokecanninja i can tell you're new to this sport or just naive.
@@Cokecanninja Wrong JA, please provide the evidence of these "peak phases." And don't speak for others when clearly only your mouth does the workout
Seems like we're covering a lot of ground on insinuation alone...
Yeah, because the rumors of doping in the peloton never wound up being true.
Plenty of people making libelous accusations, though.
Pog is doped, no doubt about that!
Only Pog???
Not the guy who was half dead a few months ago and hit his best numbers ever?? Not the 13 guys who beat Armstrongs time?
@@zerog4261 I didn't say it's only him, but he's in the focus right now
Sounds like Armstrong......
You think this legal, undetectable technique isn't abused? Hahahaha
It stimulates natural epo, which increases hemoglobin in the blood (which they measure with the rebreather test to make sure it's working!)
Electric motor doping is much safer for rider health 😂
Let them join in olympic im pretty sure they will not win... how they can spin a bike with 165mm crank on climb😂
this is a nothing chat why make this video. nothing to see here
Some of these riders are worse than junkies. Cycling still is a dirty sport, full of cheats
All pro sports are dirty sports
@@marccarter1350 yes
do you need to wear shades ?
Yeh sunglasses in the sun is fast becoming the norm in 2024
Dodgey doppers.
Use drones
Public: "You are doping." Lance: "Nope. Never dope in my life. Proof it."
UAE, Visma, Israel: "Yes, we did use carbon monoxide rebreather."
Question: why would you dope if you are telling people you use it?
During his racing career Lance never said he didn't dope, only that he'd never tested positive. So although he was a cheat, he wasn't a liar.
Why wear shades in a straight to camera piece? Looks douchey😂
if you´re using shades when doing the video,at least dress up for a ride,and at the end of the video,you mount your bike and bye bye...😄😜
Isn’t the school of thought that carbon monoxide is soooo bad for the environment and people????
Yes. Do you have a point?
We owe Lance Armstrong an apology after this years tdf
No we don’t. He was out to destroy people who questioned whether he doped.
Yeah, maybe everyone else is doping, but that doesn't excuse what he did to Greg Lemand and others defending himself. You may not remember the heinous shit he said about his accusers (who turned out to be dead on) but I do, and he doesn't deserve a fu**ing thing.
The issue with Lance was never really about the doping. Treat people like shit and it comes back to bite your ass. Too bad they didn't ask for more of their money back.
@@jstogdill Pogi is a nice guy, we'd better back off
@@G-Train He beat Pantani's doped records... There is no way he is legit.