My longest OW video ever! Thanks so much to the patron who suggested it (come join the community! patreon.com/hellofutureme) :D Though I did cheat because of the review at the end of Campfire. Go check them out: www.campfiretechnology.com/ ~ Tim
I found a few youtubers who made a full song to brace soldier boy and it makes me cry every time I hear it. I lost a man I co sider a brother to war and once a year i let myself feel the loss to remember and i always find myself connecting with that scene.
Leaves from the vine, Falling so slow, Like tiny, fragile shells, Drifting in the foam, Little soldier boy, Come marching home, Brave soldier boy,, Comes marching home.
Tim: "I promise I won't spend the whole video talking about Iroh" Me: cool, I wonder what other shows he will talk about Tim: "A good example of this is Toph from the last airbender "
"Pride is not the opposite of shame, it is it's source." I was having regular arguments with some one who was a friend for almost 5 years, and this was the advice that made me finally understand what was wrong and break through to them. It didn't magically fix our friendship, but it made us stop just yelling and start genuinely talking about how we were hurting each other. Iroh is a god damn hero as far as i'm concerned, because he actually actually made me a better person, and saved an important friendship.
@@yassinmohali6662 The basic idea is tied into the fact that there are different types of pride. There is healthy pride, you know, being proud of your accomplishments as is to scale with those accomplishments, and so on, but even this sort of healthy pride tends to lead to one having expectations of themselves. And unhealthy pride is practically *made* of expectations for yourself. In either case, these expectations, these demands you foist on yourself via your pride are one of the primary ways you will experience shame, from failing to achieve what you think you should be capable of, and so on. It's why the rest of the quote is "True humility is the only antidote to shame." Only by accepting your nature as it is, and your failures as they are, can you view them objectively and figure out how best to handle them, rather than just feeling bad about it.
Iroh has the best character arc of all time, Zuko is second. His arc is summed up on his 3 trips to Ba Sing Se. First he was a conquerer, then a refugee, and last a liberator.
It's not really a character arc though. I mean, he had one, but he already went through it before the series even started. Iroh from season 3 is pretty much the same as his season 1 self, it's just the circumstances surrounding him that have changed.
Not just them. The entire Avatar series holds the record on best character creation and development. For me, Azula is still the best. It's so rare to see a recurring villain that is still as impressive at the end of the story as they were at the beginning. On top of that, they took this absolutely sadistic monster and actually made me feel sorry for her in the end. She'd lost everything, her family relations, her friendships, and eventually her grip on sanity, all without the slightest hint of villain-decay or being out of character. Now that's quality writing. And the whole show was like that, pretty much right from the beginning. To this day I don't understand how M Night Shyamalan managed to take something that good and mess it up.
There's another way a mentor can fuel a negative arc: By having the protagonist realize and accept his truth, but in a negative way. For example, "letting your past go" becomes "let the past die, kill it if you have to".
I unironically love The Last Jedi. Obvious pacing issues aside, the actual craft of the story and themes is so rich. Like how "Let the past die; kill it if you have to" is a perversion of the same lesson Yoda teaches Luke. It's so damn good.
@@Wimikk Muh themes prevails again. Having a wall written plot is just as important as some themes you like. I agree with the first reply to your comment, watch Mauler's video on TLJ. Aside from the plot being garbage, the themes aren't even consistent.
@@mentalwarriorshow1458 Mauler's video has a lot of breadth without a lot of depth. The way he tries to make it seem like he's "objective" and right because he's not stating opinion but fact is pretty silly. He makes really long videos basically summarizing the movies he reviews frame by frame before he actually starts his analysis, which isn't great structure to be completely honest; this is why college professors give you a maximum word count, because for the most part you don't need to be that detailed to cover a topic well. I mean I'm not gonna say it's not entertaining objectively, that would be making the same mistake he is. I'm not gonna go through all his videos frame by frame before analyzing him because it's not really necessary. If you like his videos, good for you, I'm glad you can get some entertainment from them, but I don't particularly enjoy them. If you want a good video about Mauler's content that's more coherent than this comment maybe check out Jack Saint's "Long Critique Is Not Deep Critique" video. (ruclips.net/video/GjCEaE5kvb4/видео.html if you don't wanna bother looking up the video) I hope you enjoyed my overly long comment in response to your comment in approximate proportional relation to Mauler's response to The Last Jedi. Have a lovely day.
@@daylilyanimation8939 i will definitely check it out as i do not blindly follow ant single source. Most of his points resonated with me, and from my perspective he does a decent job at mentioning his own subjective feelings often, but points out objectively bad writing. I firmly agree that the writing in the new starwars films is OBJECTIVELY bad. I enjoy the films. But they are not well written. Thank you for the level headed reply, i am glad twp people can feel differently and post sources and reasons as to why without resorting to insults. I will watch that video soon. Have a good day!
I think that's the subtle thing people don't necessarily realize about Anakin's fall. He wasn't taught the Sith way only after he fell and became Darth Vader. No, Palpatine was molding him from the point he joined the Jedi! He was mentoring him from the start!
As for the some reason. The movies didn't do the plot justice. The jedi console screwed over Anakin because they were scared of him. He should of been a Jedi master, and they ignored a lot of his worries. Palpatine won over Anakin by listening to him and taking him seriously. He was a negative mentor but that was after he won him over through positive means.
@@lizziefrancis7915 that's a good point. palpatine, unsurprisingly, is a very good listener, hence his position of power. anakin was whiny but the other side of it was not ever being taken seriously enough by obi wan
@@lizziefrancis7915 I kind of agree with you, but I disagree with one major point: the Council should not have appointed Anakin a Master. For one thing, he was placed on the Council by an outside figure while he was a Knight, something that had never happened before. For another, he just wasn't ready. He demonstrated time and time again that he didn't have the emotional stability necessary to become a Jedi Master. The Council was entirely justified in that decision. However, the Council played the largest part in shaping Anakin into the person he was when Palpatine finally got through to him in ROTS. Their mistakes gave him no outlet into which he could pour his emotional issues, causing them to boil over. But we can't discount Anakin's own role, as it was his own personality that started this whole mess in the first place. In the end, Anakin's fall cannot be blamed on just his mentor figures. Much of it was his own fault, and his mentor figures merely stoked his issues (intentionally on Palpatine's part, unintentionally for the Jedi) rather than helping him deal with them in a healthy manner. It's a triangle of problems that can't be boiled down to just competing influences.
Iron has been through so much in his life. What killed me was how everyone in the fire nation always brought up his past, as if it was something to be ashamed of, but In reality those men could never have the strength to do what Iroh did and make the decisions he made.
Thats a very good perspective on "Past"......it articulate what i have been going through, Thanks for commenting,it brought on se effect in me, really appreciate it
He does have hater! Pro earth kingdom fans who don't think his regrets for Ba sing se are good enough. They believe he cared more about his son demised than the people he killed in the conquest.
@@wardam9131 If he didn't regret it, he wouldn't have come to take it back from the Fire Nation in the end. He may not cry about the Earth Kingdom citizens like he cries about Lutin, but he did want to redeem himself for what he did to Ba Sing Se.
The interesting thing about Ed and Al is that they trained with Izumi for 6 months BEFORE they attempted Human Transmutation (HT). She told them to never try it. They also studied on their own before trying it, and all the books they read cautioned against it and said it was forbidden. It's not a case of "they didn't know/weren't warned beforehand", but a case of desperation, arrogance, and vanity. They were so desperate to have their mother back, and were so Prideful that they didn't HEED the warning. It wasn't until they tried HT and it damn near killed them that they finally understood why it was forbidden. Even afterward, Ed harbored a belief that he just got the formula wrong (a belief Izumi also had about her own failed HT). It wasn't until he and Pinako dug up what Ed thought was "Trisha"'s remains that he realized it was never going to work, no matter what he and Al used or did. In this case, Ed had to discover the hard truth about the futility of HT on his own.
It’s interesting too bc it’s a case where if Izumi had shared her own experience and failure with HT whole training them maaaaybe (but probably not) Ed and al would have heeded her warning. I also like that while Izumi was halfway to that “mentor truth” about human soul > science, ed and Izumi both kind of discovered it together and he as a mentee was a catalyst for resolution in the mentor’s character arc.
Yes cool so maybe your best bet is to make your mentor be an unconventional source, like the little girls in Avatar or The Grinch. Another thing you might want to try is to make your mentor character be more like who you are now, and your protagonist be more like who you used to be back when you didn't know something, and then they have to learn hat you learned. But yeah maybe you can base your mentor character on an older person you know in your life, and then use the info in this video to help you make a good character based on them. Good luck to you!
Grow a beard then your done lol In all seriousness do you happen to know your Main characters personality first and see how You can work out there Goals and see how you want Their experience to be the same in certain regards Or make their experience different but ideals the same But that is how I Think and Understand it
No one would ever fight you on Iroh. He IS the best mentor character of all times and I'd even raise you and say he's one of the best characters ever written and certainly the best in Avatar.
12:55 Cool that you mentioned Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood. My favourite part of that dynamic was the part where Edward (after overhearing what his father Hohenheim said) digs up the body he and Alphonse created and realizes that it was never his mother; that human transmutation is truly impossible, and his first instinct is to call Izumi and let her know that human transmutation is truly impossible and that her stillborn son did not die twice.
@@matthewmuir8884 *Spoilers for the original anime* In the 2003 anime, the body that Ed digs up does turn out to be his mother, and she has become the representation of Sloth in the series. Every homunculus in the series is the result of successful human transmutation, but because the homunculi's bodies are changed and they can't fully empathize with humans anymore, they don't feel human and several of them want to try to become human again.
@@lindenshepherd6085 I'm aware of what happens in the original anime; I took one look at what happens in the original anime and decided that I'm fine with just seeing Brotherhood.
You know when I see a troubled character in any story I always think to myself "Give Uncle Iroh 10 minutes with this kids and they'll be their best possible self"
6:55 I don't think Toph really failed as a mentor. Sure, she took a while to get Aang into the right mental state to learn Earthbending, but canon, backed by the episode where he starts trying to learn, explicitly says that the Avatar's third element is always the hardest for them to master because it's so alien to their natural element. And in the end, releasing the pent-up frustration built up from her unpleasant mentoring style played a key role in unlocking Aang's ability to Earthbend. She might have had her own problems, but as a mentor she had a firm understanding of something that the protagonist refused to understand, and she conveyed that truth in a way that she was ultimately able to make Aang accept.
Agree toph was strong mentor... because she had to essentially think like an airbender and approach things from a different angle to reach aang... Excatly like an airbender would think...aka she taught earth bending by thinking like an airbender ...again her teaching style adapts and changes with her metal bending academy . Instead of stubbornly sticking to her this works for me why isn't it working for my students she changes and adapts teachings
Iroh is warning Zuko of living out a false destiny because he has gone through it and so has his son. I have a video on going through his entire life from his life as a general to how he got into the spirit world. It's about finding meaning in Tragedy. Tim, I would love for you to check it out and give me any feedback. But if this post is too self promotional please delete.
I consume a lot of RUclips media. I follow quite a few different channels about writing and educational breakdowns of media and I just want to say your channel has become one of my favorites. Mostly because I love that everything always ties back to Avatar because Avatar is the best, but I also love how well thought-out your videos are. Keep doing what you're doing. All hail Mishka. :)
What about negative mentor characters in negatove story arcs? Senator Palpatine to Anakin Skywalker (I'm hoping I spelled those names right b/c I'm not googling it).
I was thinking that too. Mostly because I have a mentor character that might fall into that category. At the very least I would like to see a video going into more detail of writing a negative growth arc with a mentor. This has been a really helpful video overall though.
I think, in a negative arc, a negative mentor would do the opposite of a positive mentor. A positive mentor is somebody who helps the protagonist see the Truth, so a negative mentor would feed into the Lie that the protagonist believes, misguiding and manipulating them, possibly for some ulterior motive, similar to Palpatine and Anakin Skywalker. Palpatine leads Anakin into believing that power is the only solution when it isn't. I don't really know, this isn't something that is done often and there are a lot of directions you could take it. Hope I was of some help!
@@zerogravityzerochill That or they would change the lie (or truth) the character believe and turn it into another lie that benefit them / they believe, that would make the character feel the same way to them as they would to a positive mentor and I thing that can be used in interesting ways in a story (with the character feeling they ow something to them). Also, I think a negative mentor would use both TRUTHS and LIES (whether they realize it is a lie or not) to change the character lie/truth, at least to make their lies more believable :)
I like mentors that are the villian, you should talk about them too. An example is Mad Eyed Moody (Barty Crouch Jr.) from Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.
I think you forgot a good way to "kill the mentor" is between Lupin and Harry in the Deathly Hallows, where Lupin offers to join Harry and the others while leaving his pregnant wife. That scene was important because up til then, Lupin didn't have many mistakes and you didn't see him loose control over his emotion, up until that scene, where all his frustrations about being a werewolf and how society treats him comes out. In that scene Harry become the mature one, and put Lupin at his place and make him go back to his pregnant wife, risking their friendship in the process because of his brutally honesty on Lupin's choice. In the end they become closer and Lupin asks Harry to become godfather for his child.
honestly, for me at least, just watching these videos helps get the mind moving in the right direction, even if its not particularly related to the subject of discussion.
I've asked before but can you please make a On Writng video about escalating and de-escalating character abilites. The two main point are to keep the stakes high without escalating the threat and to keep supporting characters relevant. Like in the Marvel movies it doesn't matter how strong the villain is we know on a meta level he won't succeed. Also in Naruto Shippuden, Naruto and Sasuke got power creeped to make even overpowered characters from pre-shippuden(Gaara) to look like fodder. The main discussion has been to plan out your story with a ceiling but is isn'tthat simple. I prefer the G.R.R. Martin approach of letting your characters develop rather having a fixed plan so power levels can get wildly out of hand. The other issue is something I'm going to call "Horizontal Power Creep" this where instead of a character is strong enough solve every problem, his skill set is versatile enough to solve every problem. In this case a writer can't easily depower the character without a in narrative explanation.
Just that it's worth mentioning... There SHOULD be some point in the discussion to specify the distinction between "Power" and "Spectacle" creep. With Spectacle creep, it's the size of the mess, while Power creep in an enhancement or advancement of brute strength behind the "thing"... Either case has a tendency to reach a ceiling point somewhere... I mean, there's only so much "of the world" to go around when someone blows up BIG... so you can only really achieve spectacle by fading the camera back so far... and then you're just shrinking the whole scene as the fireballs are supposed to be getting BIGGER... right? ...anyway... JUST something worth pointing out. ;o)
@c I am aware that G.R.R Martin doesn't write with power levels in mind but it doesn't change that fact that power levels exist. Take for instance when he disarmed Jaime, he lost what made him stronger than anyone we saw up to this point in combat. So, then G.R.R Martin continued to write how a character like Jaime develops after losing such an important part of himself. I brought up the Marvel movies as an example but it occurs with other franchises as well. I mean does any actually believe that, say Amanda Ripley is going to lose against the Xenomorph. But my main issue is that it doesn't matter how the antagonist managed to get more powerful than the hero, the protagonist is going to win so the next one needs to be stronger otherwise we don't feel threatened by the new antagonist. So this lead into the stakes being raised higher and higher to the point where the audience doesn't find it understandable (watch Over Sarcastic Productions' video on Save the World Plots). So then you can't tell stories about smaller conflicts. The thing about overpowered characters are that they always had a purpose in the momment. If they contributed into solving other characters problems these characters wouldn't have problems at all. But they were necessary for the story. For instance, Madara from Naruto needed to be strong because of who he is but even when it got to the point where Sasuke and Naruto were leagues above anyone else in the world, Kishimoto still couldnt justifiably have them beat Madara. There are ways to depower characters but the whole concept is not commonly used. Like in FMAB, (SPOILERS) Ed is willing to sacrifice his ability to perform Alchemy in order to get Alphonse back his body. It's both a lesson humility and what is more valuable to Ed. This decision is used as character development. Another example is the Fullbringer arc from Bleach, (SPOILERS) disregarding how you thinks its written it shows how someone like Ichigo would act if he lost abilites as strong as he had before fighting Aizen. Hell, even in Destiny 2, we lose our powers temporarily and although our character gets no development we see how it affects other characters. The main issue everyone faces with trying to retcon limits on previously established abilities is that they want to lose powers some but not others. Take for instance Tokyo Ghoul, say if a ghoul's Kakuhou is removed they would not survive for long in the world Ishida created so he created RC bullets and RC suppression gas to create stakes in certain situations but is doesn't solve the issue of how much more stronger Kaneki is compared to Banjou. There is no permanent method to make Kaneki and Banjou on the same level without giving Banjou something to get on Kaneki's level or lower Kanekis's power.
@c Before the discussion gets out of hand, I just wants make clear that I'm mainly looking for tips to prevent and/or reverse power creep. I want to have methods to prevent power creep before it becomes noticeable. Yes, Jaime didn't need it because he wasn't Op but it still resulted in a compelling story because he lost what made him strong. I don't want to end up with stories where every new character has to either have preexisting but unheard of abilities on par with my op protagonist only for them to fuel the ever rising power limit and make the next antagonists job harder. What I understand so far is that, similarly to gaining abilities, losing them either is the catalyst to begin character development or is a result of character arc. Specifically, if the ability is tied to an object what happens when they lose that object. I'm trying to find narrative explainations such as cost and I could use the coma idea but that is going to require more work to raise several character abilities than to depower one. The was I see it de-escalation serves the same role a gaining abilities, it can resolve and cause conflict. It's just less used and therefore less fleshed out. What I'm having trouble with is the diversity of methods and the way I write stories. Currently a lot of my characters abilities are tied to skills so a more permanent solution the idea of overpoweredness has been dismemberment but there hasn't been much diversity. The other issue has been planning and direction. With exception of FMAB, I am 95% certain that even though Kishimoto, Kubo, Martin and Ishida didn't fully plan out their stories conclusion in detail So you need to keep in mind that when these characters gained those abilities the writer didn't know that it would make them overpowered. Hell, Kubo didn't have anything else he wanted to tell with Bleach after Aizen. But in the case of Bleach, Naruto to Boruto and even shows ATLA to LOK. The writer what the next story was going to be so he didn't put limits to begin with.
Some of my favourite mentor characters are All Might from My Hero Academia and Koro-sensei from Assassination Classroom. All Might actually hits quite a few points you mention. He only knows part of the truth, and he makes mistakes (he even has his own mentor that has that truth that he's still learning!), and he has somewhat of a character arc too. What fascinates me about him is just how well done of a character he is when it comes to the idealized mentor vs. the person behind it. All Might rolls with this on an almost literal level - he has a superhero form that is known to the public and to Deku, but can only keep it up for so long, after a while his body grows weak and he takes a form that looks not very heroic and is a secret to the majority of people. There's a clear theme here between the idol front, and the truthful wounds behind it, making him both a great mentor Deku can learn from (with the idol front and how great of a hero he is) and an interesting character (with the hidden wounded form, and just as much, his wounded feelings and worries). The truth that he knows is that even heroes are imperfect, and Deku is not willing to accept this negative truth, resulting in his self sacrificial behaviour. What makes their relationship surprisingly unusual is that All Might himself struggles with that truth too, and even learns from Deku about balancing self sacrifial behaviour and giving in to weakness too soon. Deku learns essential things from him while it gives All Might the possibility to review what he already knows on his own, but the two of them together do not know the full truth and still need others (Eraser Head, All Might's mentor, even Bakugo from time to time) to learn from. Koro-sensei is different from other mentors in that the entire anime is focused on him, the mentor. Nagisa is somewhat of a protagonist and the show frequently features his perspective, but it's only a few arcs that really focus on Nagisa rather than Koro-sensei (which becomes just the more notable when it does happen). The show is about what it means to be a teacher, in the way of a teacher being a mentor to their students, so while Koro-sensei is a mentor to many character arcs in which he knows the truth that some of the students haven't found yet, the series puts a lot of focus on why it matters to him, and what happens with the students that do not have good mentor figures, including Koro-sensei's own failures. I can only stay vague as not to spoiler anything, but somehow, this story is about mentors mentoring how to mentor at its core. If you're interested in mentor-students relationships and mentor characters as characters rather than tools, I can really recommend this show.
I can't speak on Koro-sensei (Assassination Classroom is on the ever growing "get to it eventually" list), but I agree with all your points on All Might. I especially like that he didn't have to die for Deku to learn how be his own kind of hero. They both have their own interesting arcs. And I like that All Might still serves as a mentor for some of the other students too, not just Deku
I've decided this video deserves a comment because... well honestly all of your content, especially your on writing and world building videos, deserve to be seen by far more people than just myself and we few loyal fans. When I get on patreon I plan on making you my first to pledge to. Love your content and love how much you've taught me about my favorite pass time, World Building. Rock on brother, Rock on
I love Iroh, He’s like the wisest guy yet you can see how he grew to be the wisest He was a prince and the fire nation, A general in that “evil” nation Yet he grew to be this lovable guy
Let’s start a list of all the wise mentors through all of entertainment, movies, shows and games, books. I’ll start Uncle Iroh, Oogway, Aslan, Yoda, Alfred, mr.Miyagi, Sensei Wu and Garmadon....
As soon as you mentioned Iroh's son dying as exploration of his character I knew what was coming. I couldn't prepare for ir though, and at the "Comes marching home" my room was already flooding with tears
Not just Shi-Fu in Kung Fu Panda, but also Po's adopted father, the chef of the ramen joint. I would argue that Po's martial arts mentor was Shi-Fu, but his life mentor was the adopted father because without his wisdom, the movie's conflict would never have been resolved.
One cool thing to think about from this video, lu ten, was in the fire nation military where iroh was an important person and the to be fire lord. There is a connection between lu ten during and iroh's own decisions, iron went into battle with people just like lu ten, and got people just like lu ten killed. It makes the time he is singing that song even darker. He may have literally been the guy who ordered lu ten to go where he passed away!
I really loved that you mentioned FMA:B (and Avatar of course). While watching this I came to think of two Manga I read currently with strong mentor roles: Land of the Lustrous and The ancient Magus bride. And I feel like the mentors are both great in their own right (the opposition to the ideas of their master is a prominent theme in both series)
My favorite thing about obi wan as a mentor is that we see him grow with the protagonist. He knows that he has failed as a mentor to Anakin but does not give up . He waits patiently in the desert till Luke is ready . He does not repeat his mistakes and succeeds with Luke.
Obi-wan leaned more towards being a brother to Anakin than the perfect mentor which ultimately lead to Anakin's doom. Qui-Gon however was the perfect mentor for Anakin as he knew how to form a balamce between love and the duty of a Jedi. But Qui-Gon died which changed the entire fate of Anakin in the Duel of the Fates which is why the battle is called Duel of the Fates. That duel and the survival of Qui-Gon in that duel would determine the entire fate of Anakin.
Izumi takes Ed and Al in before they try to bring back their mom, they directly pay for and realize their mistakes, she doesn't show them their wrong doings until she meets them after Ed becomes a state alchemists. She throws both of them for Ed doing so and that's when she realizes what they did and gets mad at them but Ed quickly calls her out on her own mistakes since she has done exactly what they did, human transmutation. That's why she forgives them just as quickly. But in the main story Izumi is only their mentor in words, but no longer teaching them important lessons. She's no longer teaching them things like "one is all, all is one" or anything of the sort. They make their choice entirely on their own and learn why it was wrong on their own as well. But they push forward because Mustang wants Ed for a state alchemists. It gave them something to work for so that they could get a philosophers stone to get their body's back
The Last Airbender, is actually a good demonstration of many different mentor-pupil relationships. Many of these relationships also change and evolve overtime. Aang ends up haveing multiple mentors throughout the full story. Iroh however spends at least a scene mentoring many of the protagonists at one time or another.
This was really good advice. I'm writing a character who will only temporarily mentor the protagonist during some extra hard time, and otherwise will be a more or less regular supporting character, before and after, as well as her love interest. So he'll be more like a coach than an information vending machine, but yeah, a lot of what's said in this video is applicable and relevant for the time this character will take the mentor role upon himself. Also, I had no idea *that's* what the Campfire program is for! It seems incredibly helpful, tbh. I currently keep notes, character description and arcs, the whole plot in cliff notes, language stuff (for an immigrant character), random ideas, character relationships, anything and everything I need to remind myself to edit later on, flaws in my plotline and/or character arcs that I'll need to address later on, deleted scenes, etc and so on, in a massive 23 pages long Word document as well as a notepad document... with little to no order. This particular plot I'm working on ended up being unusually difficult for me to keep track of and figure out how to execute, although I'm not new to writing plot twists, redemption arcs and shit like that (although I'm absolutely new to writing such things well.) Anyhow, a program like Campfire feels like... exactly what I need. So thanks for the review, as well as the whole video!
The Black Knight from A Practical Guide to Evil is an amazing mentor character, I think as well written as Iroh. The writing does a brilliant job of making clear both that he has useful insight and that his perspective is distorted in ways that ensure that he can't be the protagonist's only source of insight.
So I recently reread a story I wrote when I was 16 and literally the only thing I am somewhat proud of is how I handled the mentor. He wasn't just a old white dude aspousing platitudes, but a guy trying to build a revolutionary movement when zombies make all hell break lose. He teaches the protagonist(a lesbian that had been raised by abusive and bigoted parents) that she can not and doesn't need to do everything on her own and that she can't just let her past eat her up from the inside. His death was getting shot in the knee, and he was still around, but mostly in the background, recovering, later doing logistics, helping raise kids and cooking for the group. You know, things that someone who can't walk would be able to do.
This is amazing. Definitely subscribing. I'm not a writer however I love literature and education and 'English' as a subject. So I've taken to watching video essays like this whenever they pop up. So educational and informative. You talk about things that I already know are going on and are important, but couldn't point out and expand on on my own. So thank you for enlightening me- kinda like a mentor. Now I'm gonna go binge the rest of your videos ahah
I mean I guess it's easier to review TV and movie writing on RUclips since it's a visual medium, but Moraine Damodred from The Wheel of Time is the best mentor character ever.
during the campfire shill, at first I was like pfft, another so-called writing tool, but after you started showcasing it I was like oh, this is actually genuinely useful.
Longtime subscriber, first-time commenter! Just wanted to say THANK YOU for your videos! As someone who has struggled to analyze writing in an educational environment, the way you present it is clear and easy to understand. The series you use for context helps me connect with concepts and ideas better than to a story I'm not excited about. I'll look into Campfire and I've pre-ordered your book, very much looking forward to it. Take care!
Dude, that's the best sponsor I've seen, glad you took your time for that, I was searching for a tool exactly like campfire for some time, thanks a lot!
One of the strengths of ATLA is the multitude of mentors it provides. Its wisdom comes from many sources and perspectives, casting broad light on the moral landscape.
An Antagonist can also function as a kind of mentor, which is an interesting way to write a villain. This can be done in 3 ways: 1) The antagonist knows a truth which makes him superior. The protag needs to learn that truth to beat him. 2) The antagonist might believe the same lie as the protagonist. The protag can thus observe the lie from an outside perspective. 3) The antagonist might have been the protag's mentor, and learning he is `evil' functions as a symbolic death of the mentor.
Damn buddy, that Campfire thing looks SOOO helpful. The fact that you recommend it the way you do in reference to your own book, it makes me smile. I might actually purchase that program. Cuz ho boy... if you could see the world I've been building. Hundreds of pages of glossary, characters, history, and mechanics. Nice to find a kindred spirit. Love your channel.
an interesting phrase by count dooku in the star wars clone wars series, "a failed apprentice makes for a foolish master," a bit to read into there... in saying that, in the Rebels series Kanan Jarrus becomes Ezra's "master" and teaches him what he knows, Kanan himself being a "failed apprentice" technically by those definitions, he didn't fail of his own accord so there is a distinction there, but despite this, Kanan becomes one of the great mentors to Ezra and other characters while also having a great arc himself...
I like that you set up a grinch discussion point. Also I'm surprised you didn't talk about jong jong. Is there a type of mentor is angry alit of the time.
It's a bit tricky to do (well), but actually, Yes... There are mentors who are angry a LOT. I don't know that you'd be well advised to categorize mentors in such a way, though. Rather, it's worth suggesting that some narrative justification should be prudent for WHY the mentor spends a considerable amount of in-story arc in some state of annoyed, angry, outraged, disapproving, or just plain irritated... even if it's an inherent part of his or her character. In relative historical works, however, the "angry old man" or "angry old woman" persona was a regular trope, and mentors were no different. There was some comedic license, though, and it benefited the cliches of constant complaining, aching, and generally disgruntled demeanor while a clearly physically diminutive person was out "adventuring" like or even in the company of youthful exuberance. ;o)
@@AvatarTheLastPodcasters, I might point you toward (at least checking out) "Remo Williams" It sometimes has an appended "title" "The adventure continues" or something like... It's a comedy take off the cliche "master-student" thing with a CIA conspiracy back-drop, building assassins... and silly... BUT "Master Chun" is hilarious as the "grumpy old master who's stuck teaching a stupid white guy who stinks of cheeseburgers" role... AND being comedy, so undermining the tropes, it's a bit more blatantly obvious about how to "make the relationship work" with a semi-malign mentor figure. ;o)
I'm not sure you'll read this, but I wanted to thank you for all this insight. I just discovered your videos about writing over the past few days, and they've been immeasurably helpful in fixing my messy plotting, solidifying my vague themes, and deciding how to drive my characters forward. I've been really struggling with my rough draft because I did a really poor job of fleshing out my world and plot in the beginning, but now I have the motivation and knowledge to fix the structural issues and finish writing. Cheers!
I’m very surprised that Dumbledore wasn’t brought up in this video, especially given how much his personal history came into play after his death and how much his death mattered to the plot and Harry’s personal growth.
Thank you for the review of campfire. Your videos have helped me with my character building and story flow so much and I just checked out the program and loved what I saw and bought it right after seeing your review. (Bows to royal cat) thank you both for this channel.
@@AroundTheCampfire I am currently setting up my novel in it to see where my weak points are I will try to get it all done for the contest. Thanks for letting me know. Going through all the options this is by far the best product for story plotting I have used and I have bought many of the other products that cost much more. Aside from a few things I would want in the character sheets this is near perfection of a product. I drew out my own world for my own use and the fact I can save the picture and put plot lines through the story on specific areas of my map is soooo helpful and awesome.
@@A1KibaWolf Don't forget, you can create custom panels on the Character Page, so if it's missing anything you can (hopefully) just add it yourself! :)
![On Writing: Civil War + COVER REVEAL [Capt. America l Avatar l Russia ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/p5b6S3II68M/mqdefault.jpg)
![On Writing: Civil War + COVER REVEAL [Capt. America l Avatar l Russia ]](/img/tr.png)
![On Writing: Villains [ Zuko l Joker l Watchmen l Vikings l Game of Thrones l Javert ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/16eJZmW_cGE/mqdefault.jpg)
My longest OW video ever! Thanks so much to the patron who suggested it (come join the community! patreon.com/hellofutureme) :D Though I did cheat because of the review at the end of Campfire. Go check them out: www.campfiretechnology.com/
~ Tim
Hello
LOVE YOUR VIDEOS!
Hello Future Me you should make a video on what if aang never burnt Katara while Training to be a fire bender
That soldier boy scene makes me tear up every time
I found a few youtubers who made a full song to brace soldier boy and it makes me cry every time I hear it. I lost a man I co sider a brother to war and once a year i let myself feel the loss to remember and i always find myself connecting with that scene.
Iroh isn't some wise man. Iroh TRAINS wise men.
Yes, I need that!
Could you please make sense when you type comments? If you can’t say things that make sense, shut the fuck up.
Anti-HyperLink thank you
he's meta-wise
@@Anti-HyperLink Would you like a cup of tea?
*hears a second of Brave Soldier Boy*
*Starts tearing up*
Leaves from the vine but I tear up too during Leaves from the vine
@Nicholas It's leaves from the vine not leaves from a vine
Yeah I can't believe he pulled that on us :') TIM HOW COULD YOU
Was so hard to explain to my coworker why I (a man) teared up.
Leaves from the vine,
Falling so slow,
Like tiny, fragile shells,
Drifting in the foam,
Little soldier boy,
Come marching home,
Brave soldier boy,,
Comes marching home.
Tim: "I promise I won't spend the whole video talking about Iroh"
Me: cool, I wonder what other shows he will talk about
Tim: "A good example of this is Toph from the last airbender "
Yes
Lol he does mention others like Star Wars, I especially liked the one about game of thrones.
Iroh threw wisdom her way too, so Mentor Squared
It is the best show ever created, so.
"Pride is not the opposite of shame, it is it's source."
I was having regular arguments with some one who was a friend for almost 5 years, and this was the advice that made me finally understand what was wrong and break through to them. It didn't magically fix our friendship, but it made us stop just yelling and start genuinely talking about how we were hurting each other. Iroh is a god damn hero as far as i'm concerned, because he actually actually made me a better person, and saved an important friendship.
That's really cool :D
@@yassinmohali6662 The basic idea is tied into the fact that there are different types of pride. There is healthy pride, you know, being proud of your accomplishments as is to scale with those accomplishments, and so on, but even this sort of healthy pride tends to lead to one having expectations of themselves. And unhealthy pride is practically *made* of expectations for yourself.
In either case, these expectations, these demands you foist on yourself via your pride are one of the primary ways you will experience shame, from failing to achieve what you think you should be capable of, and so on. It's why the rest of the quote is "True humility is the only antidote to shame." Only by accepting your nature as it is, and your failures as they are, can you view them objectively and figure out how best to handle them, rather than just feeling bad about it.
I'm your 700th like
@@thaddeusgenhelm8979Thank you, bro
Enlightening
@@thaddeusgenhelm8979 Essentially, faux pride is produced by people trying to cover up their shame
“...and killing mentor characters.”
*concerned whine*
Or you can do what I do: kill the protagonist and force the mentor to actually practice what he preaches.
@@markcarls1896 Or you kill them both :D
LunarX oof
@@storytellingchampion6438 rocks fall everyone dies
@@markcarls1896 I like the Idea. Bonus Points if the 'Protagonist' was right and the Mentor learned something
Iroh has the best character arc of all time, Zuko is second. His arc is summed up on his 3 trips to Ba Sing Se. First he was a conquerer, then a refugee, and last a liberator.
I quite agree!!! :)
A character so awesome not even the movie could ruin it!
It's not really a character arc though. I mean, he had one, but he already went through it before the series even started. Iroh from season 3 is pretty much the same as his season 1 self, it's just the circumstances surrounding him that have changed.
Not just them. The entire Avatar series holds the record on best character creation and development. For me, Azula is still the best. It's so rare to see a recurring villain that is still as impressive at the end of the story as they were at the beginning. On top of that, they took this absolutely sadistic monster and actually made me feel sorry for her in the end. She'd lost everything, her family relations, her friendships, and eventually her grip on sanity, all without the slightest hint of villain-decay or being out of character. Now that's quality writing. And the whole show was like that, pretty much right from the beginning. To this day I don't understand how M Night Shyamalan managed to take something that good and mess it up.
@@Talyrion I feel his arc comes to close at Ba Sing Se, the moment he burns the fire nation flag. His whole life comes full circle.
IROH IS THE GREATEST CHARACTER TO EVER EXIST. FIGHT ME
He truly is
He makes the short-list.
Andrzej Kmicic from The Deluge - Henryk Sienkiewicz's novel
(Anyway, Iroh is one of my favourite too)
What about pretty much everyone from Mob Psycho 100?
@@dandanthedandan7558 Arataka was ironically a really good mentor to Mob.
15:03 we interrupt this video for an emotional intermission. You may cry for 10 seconds
Just 10 seconds, that's not enough .
Can we use that 10 seconds multiple times?
@@artoriapendragonidilfitri7414 That's why RUclips has a pause feature.
That was such a dick move
I have never watched the anime but almost cried at the scene...
There's another way a mentor can fuel a negative arc: By having the protagonist realize and accept his truth, but in a negative way.
For example, "letting your past go" becomes "let the past die, kill it if you have to".
I unironically love The Last Jedi. Obvious pacing issues aside, the actual craft of the story and themes is so rich. Like how "Let the past die; kill it if you have to" is a perversion of the same lesson Yoda teaches Luke. It's so damn good.
@@Wimikk i want you yo watch the almost 6 hour 3 part series of TheMauler ripping that piece of crap apart.
@@Wimikk Muh themes prevails again. Having a wall written plot is just as important as some themes you like. I agree with the first reply to your comment, watch Mauler's video on TLJ. Aside from the plot being garbage, the themes aren't even consistent.
@@mentalwarriorshow1458 Mauler's video has a lot of breadth without a lot of depth. The way he tries to make it seem like he's "objective" and right because he's not stating opinion but fact is pretty silly. He makes really long videos basically summarizing the movies he reviews frame by frame before he actually starts his analysis, which isn't great structure to be completely honest; this is why college professors give you a maximum word count, because for the most part you don't need to be that detailed to cover a topic well.
I mean I'm not gonna say it's not entertaining objectively, that would be making the same mistake he is. I'm not gonna go through all his videos frame by frame before analyzing him because it's not really necessary.
If you like his videos, good for you, I'm glad you can get some entertainment from them, but I don't particularly enjoy them. If you want a good video about Mauler's content that's more coherent than this comment maybe check out Jack Saint's "Long Critique Is Not Deep Critique" video. (ruclips.net/video/GjCEaE5kvb4/видео.html if you don't wanna bother looking up the video)
I hope you enjoyed my overly long comment in response to your comment in approximate proportional relation to Mauler's response to The Last Jedi.
Have a lovely day.
@@daylilyanimation8939 i will definitely check it out as i do not blindly follow ant single source. Most of his points resonated with me, and from my perspective he does a decent job at mentioning his own subjective feelings often, but points out objectively bad writing. I firmly agree that the writing in the new starwars films is OBJECTIVELY bad. I enjoy the films. But they are not well written. Thank you for the level headed reply, i am glad twp people can feel differently and post sources and reasons as to why without resorting to insults. I will watch that video soon. Have a good day!
You could say Anakin Skywalker was between two mentors, and Palpatine was more effective for whatever reason.
I think that's the subtle thing people don't necessarily realize about Anakin's fall. He wasn't taught the Sith way only after he fell and became Darth Vader. No, Palpatine was molding him from the point he joined the Jedi! He was mentoring him from the start!
As for the some reason.
The movies didn't do the plot justice. The jedi console screwed over Anakin because they were scared of him. He should of been a Jedi master, and they ignored a lot of his worries. Palpatine won over Anakin by listening to him and taking him seriously. He was a negative mentor but that was after he won him over through positive means.
@@lizziefrancis7915 that's a good point. palpatine, unsurprisingly, is a very good listener, hence his position of power. anakin was whiny but the other side of it was not ever being taken seriously enough by obi wan
6:39 left side, Obi's mistake, right side Counsil's mistake.
@@lizziefrancis7915 I kind of agree with you, but I disagree with one major point: the Council should not have appointed Anakin a Master. For one thing, he was placed on the Council by an outside figure while he was a Knight, something that had never happened before. For another, he just wasn't ready. He demonstrated time and time again that he didn't have the emotional stability necessary to become a Jedi Master. The Council was entirely justified in that decision.
However, the Council played the largest part in shaping Anakin into the person he was when Palpatine finally got through to him in ROTS. Their mistakes gave him no outlet into which he could pour his emotional issues, causing them to boil over. But we can't discount Anakin's own role, as it was his own personality that started this whole mess in the first place.
In the end, Anakin's fall cannot be blamed on just his mentor figures. Much of it was his own fault, and his mentor figures merely stoked his issues (intentionally on Palpatine's part, unintentionally for the Jedi) rather than helping him deal with them in a healthy manner. It's a triangle of problems that can't be boiled down to just competing influences.
HelloFutureMe manages to talk about avatar at least once in *every* one of his videos. At least for on writing.
For good reason, I'd say.
Yeah, what does that tell us?
@@fudgethemonkey3980 That avatar is the greatest show of all time.
So what
Rockyman26 they did alot of stuff right though
Iron has been through so much in his life. What killed me was how everyone in the fire nation always brought up his past, as if it was something to be ashamed of, but In reality those men could never have the strength to do what Iroh did and make the decisions he made.
Amusingly, irohs father exactly knew that fact and shat on Ozai for his critic. Weird.
Thats a very good perspective on "Past"......it articulate what i have been going through,
Thanks for commenting,it brought on se effect in me, really appreciate it
People: no character can be universally loves
Iroh: would you like some tea ?
People: nevermind
He does have hater! Pro earth kingdom fans who don't think his regrets for Ba sing se are good enough. They believe he cared more about his son demised than the people he killed in the conquest.
@@wardam9131 If he didn't regret it, he wouldn't have come to take it back from the Fire Nation in the end. He may not cry about the Earth Kingdom citizens like he cries about Lutin, but he did want to redeem himself for what he did to Ba Sing Se.
I partially feel bad for him but don't like him
A wizard did it.
*Gandalf Sax plays*
Why does that sound familiar
Here is the 1 hour loop of that: ruclips.net/video/2rCP4CRRO7E/видео.html
The interesting thing about Ed and Al is that they trained with Izumi for 6 months BEFORE they attempted Human Transmutation (HT). She told them to never try it. They also studied on their own before trying it, and all the books they read cautioned against it and said it was forbidden. It's not a case of "they didn't know/weren't warned beforehand", but a case of desperation, arrogance, and vanity. They were so desperate to have their mother back, and were so Prideful that they didn't HEED the warning. It wasn't until they tried HT and it damn near killed them that they finally understood why it was forbidden. Even afterward, Ed harbored a belief that he just got the formula wrong (a belief Izumi also had about her own failed HT). It wasn't until he and Pinako dug up what Ed thought was "Trisha"'s remains that he realized it was never going to work, no matter what he and Al used or did.
In this case, Ed had to discover the hard truth about the futility of HT on his own.
It’s interesting too bc it’s a case where if Izumi had shared her own experience and failure with HT whole training them maaaaybe (but probably not) Ed and al would have heeded her warning. I also like that while Izumi was halfway to that “mentor truth” about human soul > science, ed and Izumi both kind of discovered it together and he as a mentee was a catalyst for resolution in the mentor’s character arc.
It broke my heart to listen to Iroh's song again
Victorkill it gave me chills
I tear up every damn time T_T
Leaves from the vine falling so slow
Like tiny, gentle shells drifting in the foam.
@@RelatvityUnset little soldier boy, come marching home
Iroh mourning his son is one the most heartbreaking scenes.
I cried watching it
Agreed. Perhaps even more heartbreaking though was the moment immediately after where the screen changed to read, "In honor of Mako."
Ned Stark's sexuality: "Duty" 🤣
Honorsexual
I don't remember Ned having a scat fetish
It's more like Stannis' sexuality.
Just Kid I was thinking the same thing lol Ned’s sex life was just fine😂
Just Kid no stannis is thronosexual
YES! I needed some help writing a character smarter, older, and wiser than myself.
danougi団扇 just ɡive it a few years, you'll be older, smarter, and wiser.
@@casimiriii5941 actually that would work.
Make a set plan of who this protagonist should be and only through age can you guide them later
Yes cool so maybe your best bet is to make your mentor be an unconventional source, like the little girls in Avatar or The Grinch.
Another thing you might want to try is to make your mentor character be more like who you are now, and your protagonist be more like who you used to be back when you didn't know something, and then they have to learn hat you learned.
But yeah maybe you can base your mentor character on an older person you know in your life, and then use the info in this video to help you make a good character based on them. Good luck to you!
Grow a beard then your done lol In all seriousness do you happen to know your Main characters personality first and see how You can work out there Goals and see how you want Their experience to be the same in certain regards Or make their experience different but ideals the same But that is how I Think and Understand it
Channel the sensible parts of yourself that you usually ignore to go do the dumb thing anyway. Works for me.
15:04 NOPE **skips 5 seconds ahead**
You’re not about to send ME to the field of feels
if you know that scene will send you to the field and see the start it's already too late to escape, you are not fooling anyone
That entire episode threw me, I went from, what’s Iroh doing? At least he’s having a good time, to, oh...oh no
Tim, definitely not gonna fight you about Iroh being the greatest mentor. I got your back.
Agreed there, Iroh is just too awesome
we're gonna help him in the fight
I would love a video on writing fight scenes - both 1v1 and armies.
Big fan of your series!
Hell yea!
I think that's a brilliant idea!
a good fight I know is Fate/zero's Kiritsugu vs Kotomine and its best fight of the fate series
I back this up! Specially 1v1
That's a great idea!
No one would ever fight you on Iroh. He IS the best mentor character of all times and I'd even raise you and say he's one of the best characters ever written and certainly the best in Avatar.
12:55 Cool that you mentioned Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood. My favourite part of that dynamic was the part where Edward (after overhearing what his father Hohenheim said) digs up the body he and Alphonse created and realizes that it was never his mother; that human transmutation is truly impossible, and his first instinct is to call Izumi and let her know that human transmutation is truly impossible and that her stillborn son did not die twice.
I loved brotherhood/the manga so much more for that reason than the original anime.
@@lindenshepherd6085 I haven't actually seen the original anime; just Brotherhood.
@@matthewmuir8884
*Spoilers for the original anime*
In the 2003 anime, the body that Ed digs up does turn out to be his mother, and she has become the representation of Sloth in the series. Every homunculus in the series is the result of successful human transmutation, but because the homunculi's bodies are changed and they can't fully empathize with humans anymore, they don't feel human and several of them want to try to become human again.
@@lindenshepherd6085 I'm aware of what happens in the original anime; I took one look at what happens in the original anime and decided that I'm fine with just seeing Brotherhood.
Hearing Iroh is making me tear up...all I can think about is that episode dedicated to the late voice actor Mako
Little soldier boy 😭
You know when I see a troubled character in any story I always think to myself "Give Uncle Iroh 10 minutes with this kids and they'll be their best possible self"
6:55 I don't think Toph really failed as a mentor. Sure, she took a while to get Aang into the right mental state to learn Earthbending, but canon, backed by the episode where he starts trying to learn, explicitly says that the Avatar's third element is always the hardest for them to master because it's so alien to their natural element. And in the end, releasing the pent-up frustration built up from her unpleasant mentoring style played a key role in unlocking Aang's ability to Earthbend.
She might have had her own problems, but as a mentor she had a firm understanding of something that the protagonist refused to understand, and she conveyed that truth in a way that she was ultimately able to make Aang accept.
Agree toph was strong mentor... because she had to essentially think like an airbender and approach things from a different angle to reach aang...
Excatly like an airbender would think...aka she taught earth bending by thinking like an airbender ...again her teaching style adapts and changes with her metal bending academy
. Instead of stubbornly sticking to her this works for me why isn't it working for my students she changes and adapts teachings
Iroh is warning Zuko of living out a false destiny because he has gone through it and so has his son. I have a video on going through his entire life from his life as a general to how he got into the spirit world. It's about finding meaning in Tragedy. Tim, I would love for you to check it out and give me any feedback. But if this post is too self promotional please delete.
I consume a lot of RUclips media. I follow quite a few different channels about writing and educational breakdowns of media and I just want to say your channel has become one of my favorites. Mostly because I love that everything always ties back to Avatar because Avatar is the best, but I also love how well thought-out your videos are. Keep doing what you're doing. All hail Mishka. :)
Thank you! Always try to keep it focused on education and not academic fluff.
~ Tim
Ashlee, do you have recommendations for other channels similar to supreme leader Mishka's?
I recommend yt channel: lessons learned from screenplay & cinema Therapy
What about negative mentor characters in negatove story arcs? Senator Palpatine to Anakin Skywalker (I'm hoping I spelled those names right b/c I'm not googling it).
I was hopinɡ he'd talk about mentors who are the villian too, I suɡɡested Mad Eye Moody (Bartimus Crouch Jr) from The Goblet of Fire.
I was thinking that too. Mostly because I have a mentor character that might fall into that category.
At the very least I would like to see a video going into more detail of writing a negative growth arc with a mentor.
This has been a really helpful video overall though.
I think, in a negative arc, a negative mentor would do the opposite of a positive mentor. A positive mentor is somebody who helps the protagonist see the Truth, so a negative mentor would feed into the Lie that the protagonist believes, misguiding and manipulating them, possibly for some ulterior motive, similar to Palpatine and Anakin Skywalker. Palpatine leads Anakin into believing that power is the only solution when it isn't. I don't really know, this isn't something that is done often and there are a lot of directions you could take it. Hope I was of some help!
@@zerogravityzerochill That or they would change the lie (or truth) the character believe and turn it into another lie that benefit them / they believe, that would make the character feel the same way to them as they would to a positive mentor and I thing that can be used in interesting ways in a story (with the character feeling they ow something to them).
Also, I think a negative mentor would use both TRUTHS and LIES (whether they realize it is a lie or not) to change the character lie/truth, at least to make their lies more believable :)
You mispelled The Senate
I like mentors that are the villian, you should talk about them too. An example is Mad Eyed Moody (Barty Crouch Jr.) from Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.
How about Darth Bane training Darth Zannah?
@@Soriichi Well, all Sith masters are a villan in the rellationship with his studant and vice versa.
The funny thing about Barty Crouth Jr. was he was too much of a method actor and mentored Harry too well.
I actually like Barty Crouch Jr. more than the real Mad Eyed Moody.
Mr. Wednesday is pretty solid too.
I think you forgot a good way to "kill the mentor" is between Lupin and Harry in the Deathly Hallows, where Lupin offers to join Harry and the others while leaving his pregnant wife.
That scene was important because up til then, Lupin didn't have many mistakes and you didn't see him loose control over his emotion, up until that scene, where all his frustrations about being a werewolf and how society treats him comes out.
In that scene Harry become the mature one, and put Lupin at his place and make him go back to his pregnant wife, risking their friendship in the process because of his brutally honesty on Lupin's choice.
In the end they become closer and Lupin asks Harry to become godfather for his child.
I don't even have a mentor character in my story, why am I watching this? Oh wait, because it's HFM and I worship SUPREME LEADER MISHKA!
All hail mishka
honestly, for me at least, just watching these videos helps get the mind moving in the right direction, even if its not particularly related to the subject of discussion.
**hails Mishka**
I've asked before but can you please make a On Writng video about escalating and de-escalating character abilites. The two main point are to keep the stakes high without escalating the threat and to keep supporting characters relevant. Like in the Marvel movies it doesn't matter how strong the villain is we know on a meta level he won't succeed. Also in Naruto Shippuden, Naruto and Sasuke got power creeped to make even overpowered characters from pre-shippuden(Gaara) to look like fodder.
The main discussion has been to plan out your story with a ceiling but is isn'tthat simple. I prefer the G.R.R. Martin approach of letting your characters develop rather having a fixed plan so power levels can get wildly out of hand. The other issue is something I'm going to call "Horizontal Power Creep" this where instead of a character is strong enough solve every problem, his skill set is versatile enough to solve every problem. In this case a writer can't easily depower the character without a in narrative explanation.
Also Dragon Ball.
Merritt Animation
Dragon Ball is this trope.
Just that it's worth mentioning... There SHOULD be some point in the discussion to specify the distinction between "Power" and "Spectacle" creep.
With Spectacle creep, it's the size of the mess, while Power creep in an enhancement or advancement of brute strength behind the "thing"... Either case has a tendency to reach a ceiling point somewhere... I mean, there's only so much "of the world" to go around when someone blows up BIG... so you can only really achieve spectacle by fading the camera back so far... and then you're just shrinking the whole scene as the fireballs are supposed to be getting BIGGER... right?
...anyway... JUST something worth pointing out. ;o)
@c I am aware that G.R.R Martin doesn't write with power levels in mind but it doesn't change that fact that power levels exist. Take for instance when he disarmed Jaime, he lost what made him stronger than anyone we saw up to this point in combat. So, then G.R.R Martin continued to write how a character like Jaime develops after losing such an important part of himself.
I brought up the Marvel movies as an example but it occurs with other franchises as well. I mean does any actually believe that, say Amanda Ripley is going to lose against the Xenomorph.
But my main issue is that it doesn't matter how the antagonist managed to get more powerful than the hero, the protagonist is going to win so the next one needs to be stronger otherwise we don't feel threatened by the new antagonist. So this lead into the stakes being raised higher and higher to the point where the audience doesn't find it understandable (watch Over Sarcastic Productions' video on Save the World Plots). So then you can't tell stories about smaller conflicts.
The thing about overpowered characters are that they always had a purpose in the momment. If they contributed into solving other characters problems these characters wouldn't have problems at all. But they were necessary for the story. For instance, Madara from Naruto needed to be strong because of who he is but even when it got to the point where Sasuke and Naruto were leagues above anyone else in the world, Kishimoto still couldnt justifiably have them beat Madara.
There are ways to depower characters but the whole concept is not commonly used. Like in FMAB, (SPOILERS) Ed is willing to sacrifice his ability to perform Alchemy in order to get Alphonse back his body. It's both a lesson humility and what is more valuable to Ed. This decision is used as character development. Another example is the Fullbringer arc from Bleach, (SPOILERS) disregarding how you thinks its written it shows how someone like Ichigo would act if he lost abilites as strong as he had before fighting Aizen. Hell, even in Destiny 2, we lose our powers temporarily and although our character gets no development we see how it affects other characters.
The main issue everyone faces with trying to retcon limits on previously established abilities is that they want to lose powers some but not others. Take for instance Tokyo Ghoul, say if a ghoul's Kakuhou is removed they would not survive for long in the world Ishida created so he created RC bullets and RC suppression gas to create stakes in certain situations but is doesn't solve the issue of how much more stronger Kaneki is compared to Banjou. There is no permanent method to make Kaneki and Banjou on the same level without giving Banjou something to get on Kaneki's level or lower Kanekis's power.
@c Before the discussion gets out of hand, I just wants make clear that I'm mainly looking for tips to prevent and/or reverse power creep. I want to have methods to prevent power creep before it becomes noticeable. Yes, Jaime didn't need it because he wasn't Op but it still resulted in a compelling story because he lost what made him strong. I don't want to end up with stories where every new character has to either have preexisting but unheard of abilities on par with my op protagonist only for them to fuel the ever rising power limit and make the next antagonists job harder.
What I understand so far is that, similarly to gaining abilities, losing them either is the catalyst to begin character development or is a result of character arc.
Specifically, if the ability is tied to an object what happens when they lose that object. I'm trying to find narrative explainations such as cost and I could use the coma idea but that is going to require more work to raise several character abilities than to depower one. The was I see it de-escalation serves the same role a gaining abilities, it can resolve and cause conflict. It's just less used and therefore less fleshed out.
What I'm having trouble with is the diversity of methods and the way I write stories. Currently a lot of my characters abilities are tied to skills so a more permanent solution the idea of overpoweredness has been dismemberment but there hasn't been much diversity. The other issue has been planning and direction. With exception of FMAB, I am 95% certain that even though Kishimoto, Kubo, Martin and Ishida didn't fully plan out their stories conclusion in detail So you need to keep in mind that when these characters gained those abilities the writer didn't know that it would make them overpowered. Hell, Kubo didn't have anything else he wanted to tell with Bleach after Aizen. But in the case of Bleach, Naruto to Boruto and even shows ATLA to LOK. The writer what the next story was going to be so he didn't put limits to begin with.
u got alot of nerve just throwing "Leaves on the vine" at me like that
When I was under the perception that I couldn't be anymore excited for your "On Writing" book, you have to go and one-up yourself.
Some of my favourite mentor characters are All Might from My Hero Academia and Koro-sensei from Assassination Classroom.
All Might actually hits quite a few points you mention. He only knows part of the truth, and he makes mistakes (he even has his own mentor that has that truth that he's still learning!), and he has somewhat of a character arc too. What fascinates me about him is just how well done of a character he is when it comes to the idealized mentor vs. the person behind it. All Might rolls with this on an almost literal level - he has a superhero form that is known to the public and to Deku, but can only keep it up for so long, after a while his body grows weak and he takes a form that looks not very heroic and is a secret to the majority of people. There's a clear theme here between the idol front, and the truthful wounds behind it, making him both a great mentor Deku can learn from (with the idol front and how great of a hero he is) and an interesting character (with the hidden wounded form, and just as much, his wounded feelings and worries). The truth that he knows is that even heroes are imperfect, and Deku is not willing to accept this negative truth, resulting in his self sacrificial behaviour. What makes their relationship surprisingly unusual is that All Might himself struggles with that truth too, and even learns from Deku about balancing self sacrifial behaviour and giving in to weakness too soon. Deku learns essential things from him while it gives All Might the possibility to review what he already knows on his own, but the two of them together do not know the full truth and still need others (Eraser Head, All Might's mentor, even Bakugo from time to time) to learn from.
Koro-sensei is different from other mentors in that the entire anime is focused on him, the mentor. Nagisa is somewhat of a protagonist and the show frequently features his perspective, but it's only a few arcs that really focus on Nagisa rather than Koro-sensei (which becomes just the more notable when it does happen). The show is about what it means to be a teacher, in the way of a teacher being a mentor to their students, so while Koro-sensei is a mentor to many character arcs in which he knows the truth that some of the students haven't found yet, the series puts a lot of focus on why it matters to him, and what happens with the students that do not have good mentor figures, including Koro-sensei's own failures. I can only stay vague as not to spoiler anything, but somehow, this story is about mentors mentoring how to mentor at its core. If you're interested in mentor-students relationships and mentor characters as characters rather than tools, I can really recommend this show.
I can't speak on Koro-sensei (Assassination Classroom is on the ever growing "get to it eventually" list), but I agree with all your points on All Might. I especially like that he didn't have to die for Deku to learn how be his own kind of hero. They both have their own interesting arcs. And I like that All Might still serves as a mentor for some of the other students too, not just Deku
sqatch92 you have not seen it? Dude, I highly recommend but bring tissues and ice cream at the end.
It’s really good, my daughter and I had good feelings from it.
I've decided this video deserves a comment because... well honestly all of your content, especially your on writing and world building videos, deserve to be seen by far more people than just myself and we few loyal fans. When I get on patreon I plan on making you my first to pledge to.
Love your content and love how much you've taught me about my favorite pass time, World Building.
Rock on brother, Rock on
Thank you so damn much!
~ Tim
Iroh's lie to Zuko was that he slayed the last dragons, Ran and Shaw
I love Iroh,
He’s like the wisest guy yet you can see how he grew to be the wisest
He was a prince and the fire nation,
A general in that “evil” nation
Yet he grew to be this lovable guy
Let’s start a list of all the wise mentors through all of entertainment, movies, shows and games, books. I’ll start Uncle Iroh, Oogway, Aslan, Yoda, Alfred, mr.Miyagi, Sensei Wu and Garmadon....
15:03 Trigger Warning #ImNotCryingYoureCrying
Instant tears - just mention that scene
SaiyanHeretic He just HAD to put that scene, didn’t he??
All hail lord MISHKA may he forever more be beautiful and Devine
You: plays the end of "The Tale of Iroh"
Me: No! wait, don't do this to me! *starts to tear up* ...damnit.
As soon as you mentioned Iroh's son dying as exploration of his character I knew what was coming. I couldn't prepare for ir though, and at the "Comes marching home" my room was already flooding with tears
One of my favorite mentors with a character arc: Master Shifu in Kung Fu Panda (actually a really well-written movie)
Seriously Kung Fu Panda movies are fun but have good story
Not just Shi-Fu in Kung Fu Panda, but also Po's adopted father, the chef of the ramen joint. I would argue that Po's martial arts mentor was Shi-Fu, but his life mentor was the adopted father because without his wisdom, the movie's conflict would never have been resolved.
@The Author This and How To Train Your Dragon :).
One cool thing to think about from this video, lu ten, was in the fire nation military where iroh was an important person and the to be fire lord. There is a connection between lu ten during and iroh's own decisions, iron went into battle with people just like lu ten, and got people just like lu ten killed. It makes the time he is singing that song even darker. He may have literally been the guy who ordered lu ten to go where he passed away!
I really loved that you mentioned FMA:B (and Avatar of course). While watching this I came to think of two Manga I read currently with strong mentor roles: Land of the Lustrous and The ancient Magus bride. And I feel like the mentors are both great in their own right (the opposition to the ideas of their master is a prominent theme in both series)
My favorite thing about obi wan as a mentor is that we see him grow with the protagonist. He knows that he has failed as a mentor to Anakin but does not give up . He waits patiently in the desert till Luke is ready . He does not repeat his mistakes and succeeds with Luke.
This video helped me take my wooden characters and make them breathe ACTUAL life. Thank you for your hard work. Subbed and liked.
I just can't hear anything about A:TLA without crying.
Also, to add to the "Killing the Mentor" to mature the protagonist - Jiraiya from Naruto.
a good mentor caracter can make or break a story... yeah i just wanted to say something cool
I honestly don't know why I watched this. All the knowledge you give me I can find by rewatching A:TLA.
15:03 Seven seconds of "Brave Soldier Boy" and I'm a wreck. Why you do this to me?
Obi-wan leaned more towards being a brother to Anakin than the perfect mentor which ultimately lead to Anakin's doom. Qui-Gon however was the perfect mentor for Anakin as he knew how to form a balamce between love and the duty of a Jedi. But Qui-Gon died which changed the entire fate of Anakin in the Duel of the Fates which is why the battle is called Duel of the Fates. That duel and the survival of Qui-Gon in that duel would determine the entire fate of Anakin.
Could you do a ''On Writing: Shapeshifitng'' ?
Great idea!
Izumi takes Ed and Al in before they try to bring back their mom, they directly pay for and realize their mistakes, she doesn't show them their wrong doings until she meets them after Ed becomes a state alchemists. She throws both of them for Ed doing so and that's when she realizes what they did and gets mad at them but Ed quickly calls her out on her own mistakes since she has done exactly what they did, human transmutation. That's why she forgives them just as quickly. But in the main story Izumi is only their mentor in words, but no longer teaching them important lessons. She's no longer teaching them things like "one is all, all is one" or anything of the sort. They make their choice entirely on their own and learn why it was wrong on their own as well. But they push forward because Mustang wants Ed for a state alchemists. It gave them something to work for so that they could get a philosophers stone to get their body's back
I see Iroh, I click
And then you cry because "Little Soldier Boy."
Epic Walrus did you have to do that 😭😔
@@MyrthexLatoya I cried so you have to too :-P
The Last Airbender, is actually a good demonstration of many different mentor-pupil relationships. Many of these relationships also change and evolve overtime. Aang ends up haveing multiple mentors throughout the full story. Iroh however spends at least a scene mentoring many of the protagonists at one time or another.
Goddamnit, you can't spring the "Brave Soldier Boy" scene on us unexpectedly like that!
This was really good advice. I'm writing a character who will only temporarily mentor the protagonist during some extra hard time, and otherwise will be a more or less regular supporting character, before and after, as well as her love interest. So he'll be more like a coach than an information vending machine, but yeah, a lot of what's said in this video is applicable and relevant for the time this character will take the mentor role upon himself.
Also, I had no idea *that's* what the Campfire program is for! It seems incredibly helpful, tbh. I currently keep notes, character description and arcs, the whole plot in cliff notes, language stuff (for an immigrant character), random ideas, character relationships, anything and everything I need to remind myself to edit later on, flaws in my plotline and/or character arcs that I'll need to address later on, deleted scenes, etc and so on, in a massive 23 pages long Word document as well as a notepad document... with little to no order.
This particular plot I'm working on ended up being unusually difficult for me to keep track of and figure out how to execute, although I'm not new to writing plot twists, redemption arcs and shit like that (although I'm absolutely new to writing such things well.) Anyhow, a program like Campfire feels like... exactly what I need. So thanks for the review, as well as the whole video!
The Black Knight from A Practical Guide to Evil is an amazing mentor character, I think as well written as Iroh. The writing does a brilliant job of making clear both that he has useful insight and that his perspective is distorted in ways that ensure that he can't be the protagonist's only source of insight.
This reminds me that I really need to catch up again
“Who are you? And what do YOU want” these are the big questions. If you do not know these things, you must try to find them.
Wow, I've never seen anyone bring up Artemis Fowl in a discussion before. Thanks for hurting me all over again btw. :'(
The other thing I love about Iroh is even years later, I can still find new uses or meanings for things he says. HE'S SO GOOD.
Whoa whoa slow down we need an emotions/feels alert when you show that scene 15:02
This video just makes me even more impressed by great writers. It’s unbelievably complex
So I recently reread a story I wrote when I was 16 and literally the only thing I am somewhat proud of is how I handled the mentor. He wasn't just a old white dude aspousing platitudes, but a guy trying to build a revolutionary movement when zombies make all hell break lose. He teaches the protagonist(a lesbian that had been raised by abusive and bigoted parents) that she can not and doesn't need to do everything on her own and that she can't just let her past eat her up from the inside. His death was getting shot in the knee, and he was still around, but mostly in the background, recovering, later doing logistics, helping raise kids and cooking for the group. You know, things that someone who can't walk would be able to do.
This is amazing. Definitely subscribing. I'm not a writer however I love literature and education and 'English' as a subject. So I've taken to watching video essays like this whenever they pop up. So educational and informative. You talk about things that I already know are going on and are important, but couldn't point out and expand on on my own. So thank you for enlightening me- kinda like a mentor. Now I'm gonna go binge the rest of your videos ahah
I mean I guess it's easier to review TV and movie writing on RUclips since it's a visual medium, but
Moraine Damodred from The Wheel of Time is the best mentor character ever.
Hey HelloFutureMe! I'm using your writing videos to write the most important story for me...
The narrative of my life
Campfire + World Anvil = perfect digital work database
thank you for inadvertedly bringing my attention to World Anvil, while I haven't delved too much into the site, it seems quite useful.
during the campfire shill, at first I was like pfft, another so-called writing tool, but after you started showcasing it I was like oh, this is actually genuinely useful.
Our goal is to create the best writing software in the world! We're writers too, so creating useful software for writing is important to us.
15:03 *UGLY CRIES*
Longtime subscriber, first-time commenter! Just wanted to say THANK YOU for your videos! As someone who has struggled to analyze writing in an educational environment, the way you present it is clear and easy to understand. The series you use for context helps me connect with concepts and ideas better than to a story I'm not excited about. I'll look into Campfire and I've pre-ordered your book, very much looking forward to it. Take care!
So glad to see Sansa in this! She had many mentors.
Dude, that's the best sponsor I've seen, glad you took your time for that, I was searching for a tool exactly like campfire for some time, thanks a lot!
... just realized there’s a severe lack of Uncle Iroh’s portrait in my house.
One of the strengths of ATLA is the multitude of mentors it provides. Its wisdom comes from many sources and perspectives, casting broad light on the moral landscape.
Such a great and in detail video/analysis, loved it!
Edit:Would love a video related to the White Lotus
An Antagonist can also function as a kind of mentor, which is an interesting way to write a villain. This can be done in 3 ways:
1) The antagonist knows a truth which makes him superior. The protag needs to learn that truth to beat him.
2) The antagonist might believe the same lie as the protagonist. The protag can thus observe the lie from an outside perspective.
3) The antagonist might have been the protag's mentor, and learning he is `evil' functions as a symbolic death of the mentor.
Please trigger warn us before including Iroh singing Leaves from the Vine.
Damn buddy, that Campfire thing looks SOOO helpful. The fact that you recommend it the way you do in reference to your own book, it makes me smile. I might actually purchase that program. Cuz ho boy... if you could see the world I've been building. Hundreds of pages of glossary, characters, history, and mechanics. Nice to find a kindred spirit. Love your channel.
We think it's pretty nifty ;D Let us know what you think if you do end up buying :)
campfire sounds amazinɡ, I think I'm ɡoinɡ to ɡive it a try.
We think it's pretty cool, but we might be biased! ;D Let us know what you think if you give it a shot!
Great video. Never seen Cersei as a mentor, but when you showed it, wow. :)
Don't forget the best mentor; Reigen Ataraka.
I approve of this
What's this from?
@@merrittanimation7721 Mob Psycho 100
@@merrittanimation7721 Mob Psycho 100
an interesting phrase by count dooku in the star wars clone wars series, "a failed apprentice makes for a foolish master," a bit to read into there... in saying that, in the Rebels series Kanan Jarrus becomes Ezra's "master" and teaches him what he knows, Kanan himself being a "failed apprentice" technically by those definitions, he didn't fail of his own accord so there is a distinction there, but despite this, Kanan becomes one of the great mentors to Ezra and other characters while also having a great arc himself...
I miss you, Iroh!
Iron is the best mentor I’ve seen in a tv show he’s so well written and he’s great mentor and father figure to Zuko
I like that you set up a grinch discussion point.
Also I'm surprised you didn't talk about jong jong. Is there a type of mentor is angry alit of the time.
It's a bit tricky to do (well), but actually, Yes... There are mentors who are angry a LOT. I don't know that you'd be well advised to categorize mentors in such a way, though. Rather, it's worth suggesting that some narrative justification should be prudent for WHY the mentor spends a considerable amount of in-story arc in some state of annoyed, angry, outraged, disapproving, or just plain irritated... even if it's an inherent part of his or her character.
In relative historical works, however, the "angry old man" or "angry old woman" persona was a regular trope, and mentors were no different. There was some comedic license, though, and it benefited the cliches of constant complaining, aching, and generally disgruntled demeanor while a clearly physically diminutive person was out "adventuring" like or even in the company of youthful exuberance. ;o)
@@gnarthdarkanen7464 yes, there definitely has to be a reason behind it. Jeong Jeong would be because he feels cursed with firebending.
@@AvatarTheLastPodcasters, I might point you toward (at least checking out) "Remo Williams" It sometimes has an appended "title" "The adventure continues" or something like...
It's a comedy take off the cliche "master-student" thing with a CIA conspiracy back-drop, building assassins... and silly...
BUT "Master Chun" is hilarious as the "grumpy old master who's stuck teaching a stupid white guy who stinks of cheeseburgers" role... AND being comedy, so undermining the tropes, it's a bit more blatantly obvious about how to "make the relationship work" with a semi-malign mentor figure. ;o)
I'm not sure you'll read this, but I wanted to thank you for all this insight. I just discovered your videos about writing over the past few days, and they've been immeasurably helpful in fixing my messy plotting, solidifying my vague themes, and deciding how to drive my characters forward. I've been really struggling with my rough draft because I did a really poor job of fleshing out my world and plot in the beginning, but now I have the motivation and knowledge to fix the structural issues and finish writing. Cheers!
Did you have to show the leaves on the wind scene? Im crying now
Leaves on the vine
I’m very surprised that Dumbledore wasn’t brought up in this video, especially given how much his personal history came into play after his death and how much his death mattered to the plot and Harry’s personal growth.
Anyone that would disagree that Iroh is the best character simply hasn't seen Avatar: The Last Airbender. It's just that simple.
Thank you for the review of campfire. Your videos have helped me with my character building and story flow so much and I just checked out the program and loved what I saw and bought it right after seeing your review. (Bows to royal cat) thank you both for this channel.
Wow, thank you so much! We're glad to hear it! Be sure you check out the story competition we're running over the next month or so! :)
@@AroundTheCampfire I am currently setting up my novel in it to see where my weak points are I will try to get it all done for the contest. Thanks for letting me know. Going through all the options this is by far the best product for story plotting I have used and I have bought many of the other products that cost much more. Aside from a few things I would want in the character sheets this is near perfection of a product. I drew out my own world for my own use and the fact I can save the picture and put plot lines through the story on specific areas of my map is soooo helpful and awesome.
@@A1KibaWolf Don't forget, you can create custom panels on the Character Page, so if it's missing anything you can (hopefully) just add it yourself! :)
Could two characters theoretically be each other's mentor?
better question: would the word for a group of mentors be "a conference"?
1st off, amazing video, I live how in depth you go over the topic
2nd, holy shit, a video sponsor that I'd actually consider getting
I need and “On writing: Foil characters” video
I must thank you not just for the nice video, but for giving me such a good idea for getting unstuck on the creation of a character, thanks