Why I DON'T Want to see Jigsaw's Other Apprentices Returning in SAW X
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- SAW X will see the return of Tobin Bell and Shawnee Smith to the SAW series, but ahead of the release of an official trailer, we don't know who ELSE may be returning for the upcoming tenth Saw film . . .
Whether or not we'll see the return of Hoffman, or Dr Gordon, or Logan, or anyone else from the SAW universe, I'm making the argument that Less is More, when it comes to the other Jigsaw apprentices, and why SAW X will be a Better film, if it includes as Few of those characters as possible.
BE WARNED: Spoilers for basically all the Saw films so far.
Patreon: / morbidmoonlight
Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/morb...
Music used in this video:
BE PARTNERS ULTIMATE MIX - from the amazing @SAW SOUNDTRACKS Channel - • Be Partners - Ultimate...
![FendiDa Rappa - Clock Dat ft. Shamar Marco [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3NBU8KHdxYY/mqdefault.jpg)
I feel like you shortchanged Hoffman a little. I like the idea of Kramer accidentally handing his work over to a sadist who never actually aligned with his philosophy. It’s not handled the best, but I think it’s a way to hold up a mirror to Jigsaw and show that his methods were flawed. There’s no difference between John Kramer and any lunatic that wants to hurt people in an ironic way. They didn’t present it well all the time, but I like what they were going for.
🙌🏾🙌🏾🙌🏾
Not sure how Dr. Gordon made no sense to you when there was literal theories since Saw 2 that he was Jigsaw's apprentice. So Saw 3D really just rewarded the viewers for their theory and stuck around for the end.
Also the Apprentice role was not worn out because they were all different types of apprentices, like Amanda creating unwinnable games, Hoffman being a murderer as well and Jigsaw knowing this and knew that and wanted him killed but Jill failed and it lead to her death, but his failsafe was Gordon his most loyal out of all the Apprentices cause he never broke Jigsaw's rules. That is what made Gordon stand out the most, and then you have Logan who seems like he does give the same chances Jigsaw does, but the ending scene could be debated on wether or not he is similar to Hoffman or if he gave Halloran a fair chance as well and he failed his test.
It's been sadly confirmed from leakers and ect. They are very mad that Hoffman's comeback is leaked cuz that was meant to be a surprise. Amanda is a character jn this movie that is important for John so she's in it, Gordon probably won't and other neither
Well there is that leaked photo of one guy dressed like either Gordon or Adam, with dirty face and white shirt covered in blood, so I guess either one of them or both of them will be shown, just not play any significant role. Like Gordon in Saw 2 in the background. Leaked at the same time as the bathroom set itself.
But we'll see. It would be surprising to see all accomplices in a single movie (and all of them still being alive at this point).
@@azk9218i think it’s more likely Adam because they say there was a lawsuit with the Lawrence actor and the SAW
@@yangionet8116 it was after Saw 1. They solved it a long time ago, he reappeared in Saw3D.
@@azk9218 ok thanks i thought it happened after the last one
It's a prequel bro. Only surprise will be jigsaw looking 400 years old when he supposed to be younger lol. It's going to suuuuuck
I rather want to see Hoffman and Dr Gordon returning than another “surprising” crappy new apprentice
Killing off Amanda in Saw III was a bad move for sure.
Dr Gordon, besides Amanda is probably my favorite out of them all of the followers. It just shows how much of cult like leader that Kramer was. To get people to buy into everything he did. I understand by the time of the reveal that people were sick of this kind of Troup. While hoffman is just a flawed character from the the start. Like what skills does he bring over getting a doctor to help with your mission.
The trailer has confirmed Hoffman is going to be in Saw X. This is fine, he was as significant as Amanda in terms of his role in the legacy. The other two not as much. Something to remember is we already had one film that centered on John and Amanda, that was Saw 3 (In fact Amanda was the primary focus of Saw 3). Saw 5 was Hoffman’s equivalent. Sure, his relationship with John wasn’t the same as Amanda, but it was established that the two were the most important pair in the legacy when it came to planning and executing it all. Saw 6 was a blend of both, which is what the trailer for Saw X heavily implies it may be.
I disagree on not accounting for every thread, that’s what made the sequels so much fun, including Jigsaw. This was missed with Spiral. So I would love it if Saw X had a twist or reveal that plays right into stuff we see later.
I also half disagree about Logan and Gordon. Yes, we can leave Dr. Gordon out, because we’re left to think only John and potentially Jill knew about him being an apprentice and he wasn’t as important as Amanda and Hoffman. Logan, however, as much as he may have been one of multiple hidden apprentices known only by John, the eighth film has him set up to be the successor, meaning he is important to the overall story. We need to flesh him out as a character going forward, so him being in Saw X would be fine, though would probably be better to elaborate in a Jigsaw 2, but either way it will be needed to flesh him out.
Saw II had one of my favorite endings as she was the first apprentice plot twist in the series. It was not that big of a deal after that because it was expected after that.
Hoffman is one of my favourite characters. Even more than Amanda maybe and i hope we see him again.
But i can see how it is difficult to make a sequel in such a franchise and no matter how they do it, not everyone can be pleased
But how do u know it is obvious we will see Detective Hoffman again? If i may ask
Not Obvious at all: I only said that it seemed "likely". It's really pure speculation.
I've had a lot of commenters insist that Hoffman is coming back even though the only evidence seems to be that a Google search for "Saw X" turns up Costas Mandylor in the cast list, or that someone on Twitter at some point said that Costas was coming back.
It's possible that he might be a surprise, or a cameo, but I know absolutely nothing for sure.
And I do like Hoffman as well, and it's cool you, and clearly a lot of others love him: I just think Saw X would be better as just a Jigsaw/Amanda film. But I'm still massively looking forward to it, whoever shows up. 👍
As a true SAW fan, I'm also more into the Jigsaw, Amanda and Hoffman story. Everything else that has been tried with Logan Nelson and William Schenk is completely out of the question. It's also absurd at some point when it turns out that John Kramer has 500 apprentices. I think the story should be continued with Mark Hoffman at this point if possible, and possibly with Logan Nelson. In the future. But the franchise really doesn't need more apprentices. I mean Amanda and John, they died, Mark Hoffman isn't known if he's still alive. And actor Cary Elwes (Dr. Gordon) left the franchise himself for financial reasons!
I disagree about Dr. Gordon. It was well set up with him being an apprentice. The fans loved the reveal it wasn’t received poorly at all. But I agree with everything else you said.
I wonder why they thought it was a good idea to kill Amanda along with John and let Hoffman take over for 4 films. Amanda is so much more of a complex and interesting character. Imagine her as main antagonist for at least a couple movies after 3
Also, damn, they made such a mess with the many (bland) apprentices! Like why was Gordon not helping Hoffman continue John's work? Why show up just to take Hoffman down in case he hurt Jill? And where were Logan during the first 7 films? Say anything about Spiral, but at least it gave us something different than yet another secret apprentice.
Leigh wrote the original 3 movies and no more. I feel like SAW was supposed to end with 3. Originally Lawrence was going to be in 3, but a lawsuit got in the way.
@@IlmeriaVonLeinweber That makes sense. John and Amanda die on 3 because it was supposed to be the end. But the way they used to release a new movie every year gave the illusion that it was all somewhat planned in advance. I used to think Amanda dying too was just for the shocking twist, with Hoffman being planned as the successor in advance (which is a bad idea). Now it makes more sense.
By the way, did u notice we can watch 1 - 3 and then skip to Jigsaw and/or Spiral and it works perfectly? It's actually possible to skip 4 - 7 and get a cohesive continuity.
@@gabrielgomes4228 Yes I have. It's pretty cool isn't it? This is how I watch SAW nowadays. I enjoyed VI at the time, but now all the soap opera stuff with Hoffman and Jill inbetween is so boring to me. There was a time when I absolutely loved IV, but this is when the "mystery" was still there.
I hope in SAW X, John isn't portrayed as a hero. I miss him capturing someone just because they had a bad day and cut their wrists once.
@@IlmeriaVonLeinweber Yeah! I like how we have this option to disregard the films that made the whole thing too overly convoluted.
I also enjoyed these films in the first vieweing due to the hype, but now I find them bothersome. For instance, I enjoyed 4 the first time due to the mystery of how the games were still going on without both John or Amanda, and I liked the twist that it was actually happening at the same time as the events on 3. But the twist that Hoffman is a second apprentice is so boring. I swear I didn't even remember who he was at the time of the reveal. Like "Wow! He was a second apprentice! Wait, who is this guy again?" Compare that to the Amanda reveal on 2.
And 5, 6 and 7 for me are, now, just tiring. Hoffman is an emotionless cardboard cutout and by far my least favorite Jigsaw follower. I find Logan from Jigsaw more interesting. So 3 movies with Hoffman as the big bad are just too boring for me now that the hype has long passed.
I also find 4 - 7 overly complicated and convoluted, with dozens of flashbacks that are there not to enrich the character's stories, but to retcon everything and justify Hoffman's presence. That's why I found Jigsaw and Spiral refreshing, They are simple and more of stand alone stories. And even if Logan is another secret apprentice, it felt like a soft reboot. If we watch 1 - 3 and skip to Jigsaw, the group is reduced to 3 people (John, Amanda and Logan), instead of 5 (with also Hoffman and Gordon). And we had the whole film to connect with Logan before the reveal, which is better than what we got with Hoffman, who we barely knew and then got 3 films of retcons.
Oh, i'm there with you. I hope John in X is more like what we see of him in 1 - 3 and not like in his flashbacks from 4 onwards. I like twisted f*ck Jigsaw more than almost justified vigilante Jigsaw. That's also why I like Logan and Schenk. They were just getting bloody revenge.
@@gabrielgomes4228you and Ilmeria are well lucky to see them with the hype lol. I started watching them around the first lockdown so none of the hype was there haha. First time watching them was an amazing experience. I cannot wait for SAW X
Sorry but with all this bring said, I want Hoffman, Dr. Gordon & Adam back 😂 I love that this movie is coming out and we're getting John & Amanda again ❤
The hype is real
Sort of. I'd rather see Spiral continued.
@@n.u.k.2188I would rather see saw x
@@n.u.k.2188why? It was dogshit.
As long as it doesn't mess or ruin with the continuty. the film Jigsaw rlly flopped in my eyes, because it felt too distant from the film universe. And only having Tobin Bell appearing in it. Yes it was supposed to kinda be a soft reboot. But many things didn't add up with the timeline ect. (Or it is gonna be explained in future films?) The new film(s) need the old cast, especially if it is gonna be a prequel. They don't have to steal the show. Few minutes is fine.
My boy
@@PaulSawMusic 🙃
Here for the Amanda love. She is the only apprentice that makes sense to me. I never liked Hoffman at all and wished he would have been off in Saw 6. Saw 7 was the worst move imo and it not even showed him to be a senseless murdering psychopath, but it also ruined Jill's character. Dr Gordon being the twist at the end was interesting choice. I am just so sick of Hoffman
Just make the sequels to Saw X each cover the training of a different apprentice.
I hope it is done beautifully…
3:30 to be fair with this one theyve been building up this twist since saw 2 with all the hints like the guy limping in the video for the eye ball trap
That was Dr. Gordon
@@nicholasballard6026 I know yo that’s what I’m sayin they’ve been building the twist since the beginning
P.S. AMEN HOFFMAN IS SO BASIC AND MOUSTACHE TWIRLING!!!!!!!!!
Doctor Gordon twist in 3D very nearly retroactively ruins the franchise for me. It was dumb, cheesy, made no sense, and totally wasted the build up to his return for 6 movies. He literally went from my favorite character to one of my least favorites.
It made no sense, they made no effort to explain why he'd do this, they just wanted a cheap shock.
more Amanda young . I'm loving everything you're saying about her because to me she is the Saw franchise . my fav character I hated her death the most 😢
I would just love to see a Saw movie focussing on "Team Jigsaw" and tell the story fully from their perspective instead of the police. The imdb plot seems pointing out it will be like a revenge movie?
I do agree with dr Gordon not being really the character fitting as an apprentice but it also seems like he was really just rarely involved. There were just a couple of instances (surgery to shut eyes for the trap in 4 and they key beind the eye in 2 and the advice to have Lynn abducted) maybe there were some more but it might be possible that there is some more stuff we dont know and John would blackmail him if he wouldnt help him
There was no need to add Logan Nelson as an apprentice. Such a bad creative decision which convoluted the timeline even more. The Josh Stolberg films have been the worst written films. The film Jigsaw has over 15 mistakes and plot holes in them.
It sounds this movie will be focusing on clarifying the timeline ambiguity introduced in Saw 6 and Jigsaw and may provide a bit more insight on Jigsaw's medical apprentices (Gordon and Logan). I expect Gordon will be in offscreen recovery from after 1 and Logan will be treating him and preparing to leave for Afghanistan. He may even be the one who realized John's tumor was never removed and referred him to Dr Gordon to have that confirmed.
Bro hoffman vs peter was one of the best parts of saw I was so hyped watching them
It's really under appreciated, I enjoyed saw 5. It really bridged Hoffman into the story and Gave you cool information leading up to that point. Like how Hoffman and John began working with each other and peter solving the story with the cool flashbacks
ViewerAnon, guy who leaked Amanda before the reveal, also leaked Costas Mandylor returning as Hoffman, and that makes sense.
Others very unlikely. No reason to include Logan (we can assume he stopped being an accomplice before Hoffman was recruited) and Gordon, well. Cameo with different actor at best, Cary Elwes said he's not working on the franchise anymore, like in leaked photo of a guy resembling either Adam or Gordon, released alongside the bathroom set photo.
Which makes me think this move would be perfect for Gordon's backstory with Jigsaw other than a one minute of flashbacks in Saw 3D.
I hated Hoffman. But the guy who played him was awesome in the role. So I give him praise. But he's not on IMDb for Saw X so I don't care what people say, it's a rumor he's in it & nothing more. I pretty much agree with everything you said.
His voice is in the trailer.
This is really dismissive of the details and each character's philosophy. A prequel is going to poke more holes in the timeline as much as Logan's introduction. The only proper X entry was to have Logan/Dr Gordon show down and prove who is truly carrying on John's legacy. End it instead of ruining the timeline with retcons.
I don't want this movie. I love Saw but the main reason was the overarching plot. Each movie was a puzzle and a mystery, the best part was always the end of the film. Because it was always a surprise and it always revealed a detail that you may have missed throughout the entire movie. Saw X is just retreading the old story beats, there's no mystery to it. The movie is suppose to be between SAW 1 & 2, well we already knows what happens in both those movies already. Why would I want to watch an in-between film of a character who's fate we already know is sealed? There will most likely be no shocker ending like most of the films in the franchise since its in between two films. Either they get better writers who can craft a clever plot moving forward without the original Jigsaw, or just leave the franchise alone. Their biggest mistake was killing Jigsaw so early in the franchise, they could have at least faked his death or something, if they wanted to continue the series moving forward.
Mark Hoffman was proof that jigsaw’s teachings Doesn’t work. John created a monster that ended up killing the one person he loves. It’s literally a Frankenstein story.
And Logan….yea he sucks 😂
Hey, thanks again for another insightful video! I have heard/seen massive leaks myself of who is returning, I'll keep it tied up as I don't really want to ruin the film for people who are wanting to go into it blind! But I really do get what you're trying to convey, there's been way too many apprentice reveals (copycat for Spiral's sake) from five of the current nine films. What I can say about Saw X is that there definitely won't be any new apprentice reveals, but there will be a couple returning for some small scenes!
Interesting - I've stayed away from leaks myself, and I appreciate you not spoiling things, thanks.
Cheers for stopping by, though. 👍
you are popping up everywhere man
Pls tell me Amanda shows up more than just one scene
@@theunknownuser9609 Yes, she will have quite a few scenes in X
@@SawSoundtracks Good. Good. Thats all I needed.
It would make sense to see more apprentices even if they have much smaller roles. Of course Nelson and Dr. Gordon would be secret apprentices so again... smaller roles if they do use them.
Hoffman didn't, lore wise, want to join Jigsaw, he was blackmailed and then got a taste for it. Much so because he was that broken stereotype of a cop being consumed by work and the helplessness of the low crime solving rate and light punishment for those that was caught.
I'm probably reading a lot into this but here we go:
Jigsaw is just a twisted reflection of Kramer as purely evil. Neither Amand, Hoffman nor Gordon would alone be able to fill that role. Realistically speaking neither of these three would be able to build these complex pieces of machinery possibly simpler stuff like in I & II
Hoffman is the only one who theoretically would be close to replicating Jigsaws stuff without Kramer due to access of seized materials at crime scenes and reverse engineer it. The pendulum trap I felt was a bit over the top for someone who was pictured as a drunkard (at the time in the story). But what ever...
Despite having the same writers for Sav IV, V, VI & 3D, which in it self is much better than changing in between them, I do feel there is a change in character motives between films.
At first Hoffman reluctantly joins due to blackmail. Whether or not he actually enjoys the role he now fills or just plays along is kind of unclear to me.
I always read Hoffmans pressuring off Amanda as more of a way to get rid of her the way that it did end for her rather than competing for being the "teachers pet" (which ironically kind of makes sense since this is a cult at this point). As Stram concludes "Hoffman was meant to be the sole survivor" (after the events of Saw III & IV). Amanda was a loose end that threatened him. Throughout Saw 3D Hoffman basically just tries to tie up more lose ends before he tries to run for it. He clearly isn't targeting all those cops for being suitable jigsaw targets. He was told that "everyone knew" in the previous film and couldn't take the risk. Under this assumption he wouldn't continue the legacy, but he still makes a better candidate from a stand point of competence.
If we are to overview the entire franchise I do believe that jigsaw tried to create something greater than one man. An idea perpetrated by it's followers. The followers consisting of the few people which "truly understood" the idea by enduring the trial and coming out a new person.
Both Amanda and Gordon suffered and endured through the trials that were to "open their eyes" to their wrong doings. Hoffman got a very quick and more "functional introduction because of his pragmatic value to Kramer.
Since Jigsaw was dying he needed to find a new puppet master. He saw the potential of Hoffman, but didn't trust him enough due to the circumstances of how he joined. There fore keeping Gordon, a person with some good qualities and brains for the role but with less recourses than the captain of a police precinct, as a plan B. There fore it would be more logical to continue on with Gordon for future films, especially since he is alive by the end.
Additional Thoughts:
This kind of addresses another curious part this cults group structure. First and fore most. In cults no follower dares oppose the the leaders orders and constantly looks for his/her approval. There fore I doubt these one off traps are on their own incentive. Especially if it is to be Jigsaws voice on the recording and not the Hoffman ones.
There obviously were parts where surgical skills were required but none of the others knew that Kramer had someone come in and perform them? As stated in Saw II Obi was contracted with kidnaping another target, but surgical skills? Shouldn't that kind of ordeal raise a few eyebrows?
Take the Angel trap in Saw III, Amanda stands there watching and Stram points out that Amanda were unlikely to have hoisted Carrie up there herself, implicating Hoffman. Could she or Hoffman really interlock that machine into her ribcage properly? Then how would Gordon do it without them knowing about him?
I know most traps execute flawlessly because its a god damn film but if I am to suspend my disbelief it need to be because there is some believability to it.
Which of the characters are returning to screen isn't really my main concern for Saw X, it's more so the writing. The stuff Chris Rock brought to Spiral was actually good but I feel a lot of the writing in "Jigsaw" was subpar. Spiral was a lot better over all but still, in my opition, kind of missed the point of the original series. This new film has the same writers and I believe we can expect the same kind of "missing the point" especially now that they have been allowed to mess around with original characters.
9:38 where is this clip from?
Saw 3, the Director's Cut.
Not saying I don't want this new film to be great and like the first 2 but the likelihood is it will be a flop.
I do, and my opinion is the only one that matters. HMPH.
Liked and commented for peep show reference
Cant believe i watched this for ten minutes before you said saw 3 is your favorite. Yuck.
3 is great! What's your problem with it?
The 4 naan meme has made my day
Adam
Not Only Is Amanda Back,But Also Hoffman As Well. This Is What Multiple Sources & Outlets Have Reported For Awhile Now. In Saw X Neither Jigsaw Nor Amanda Are Dead Because Technically Saw X Is Saw 1.5 And This Midquel Could Retcon The Entire Series. As Far As The Series Goes...I Highly Doubt This Will Be A Send Off & No More Sequels Will Be Made.
Not necessarily. As long as the franchise sells well, there's nothing wrong with continuing the series. The Michael Myers Halloween franchise has also existed for 44 years!
@@mirkom8275hopefully Halloween ended with Ends… I love Blumhouse to bits but that film was horrible. Although I wouldn’t mind a game but as a story game that isn’t cannon and is just there to provide fun
there is something you did not talk about it ..i'm really interested to know who is the 2 persons who was standing with dr gordon on the saw 7th could of be logan but who is the other guy who is hiding till now.
Those were the two boys from the 1st trap of the movie,
Brad and Ryan from the opening trap in Saw 3D. Confirmed in the Saw 3D commentary.
Saw X feels like it gonna be a return to form. Hated jigsaw and sprial. Last saw i like was 6... but honestly havent been happy with the series since the 3rd movie. This movie has the opportunity to make the series good again.
It's in Mexico, Spiral's copycat killer was Mexican. I feel like he'll be somehow involved as well.
I’m hyped I’d love to see Eric Mathews returning
Apppreciate your calm way of speaking lad! 👌
It looks like we are only getting Amanda which makes sense as it's set between 1&2
COSTAS MANDYLOR LET'S GO!
Hoffman is my favorite character. Amanda is my least favorite.
We need this like we need more f&f movies.
My theory for future saw movies - billy is related to annabelle made by merry shaw. Jigsaw made torretos car from the teseract. It crosses over into michael bay verse transformers. Makes way more sense than this crap
They can address the lacklustre writing of the lesser sequels simply through throwaway lines or quick little references.
John can straight up mention Gordon not being directly involved other then when needed for medical assistance and that he is simply grateful to John and wants to help future survivors deal with their trauma and he will be there if needed in the future (implying he knows that Hoffman may go against him).
Something similar can be said about Logan and how he is now a changed man and has gone to fight in the war that was referenced in Jigsaw and has moved on with his life and John is happy for him.
When it comes to William (Spiral), there is a leaked photo of John talking to a Kid that can be a set-up for him with that Kid being William and just saying he likes Johns drawings or something.
I will be happy with that and I believe simple little scenes like these can improve those lesser films.
I'm secretly working with jigsaw. Shhh😈
I have a feeling this will just be a cash grab. a lazy rehash, where theres no real story or significance towards the overall arch of saw, as it will just be a "lets just shoe horn this one in here!" type deal