TF2's Most Unnecessary Random Mechanic
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- Опубликовано: 30 июл 2024
- Random Bullet Spread as a mechanic is one we've all experienced in our time playing team fortress 2, but most never put any thought into what it actually does to the game. Unlike random crits, which are incredibly easy to spot from how effective and '''balanced'''' they are. Now, you might be thinking, ...well how bad IS random bullet spread?
Of course, that depends on the situation, but it would be much easier to display my deeper thoughts within the actual video, so please enjoy!
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[SPECIAL THANKS]
Hexalina - For assistance with a few clips throughout the video
Vapor - For assistance with a clip involving hitboxes
All Music Used - docs.google.com/document/d/1gmPhogr-KcdFliBlc4U4YCvDnBpJNX66OZ6x0EIzNtg/view
Chapters
Intro 0:00
What is bullet spread? 2:35
RBS is surprisingly hidden 5:24
Aim 6:58
Counterarguments 8:53
what're ya doing down here :)
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#tf2 #teamfortress2
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Игры
And now we wait for the video about the random fall damage :D
Now about random match making.
Wasn't that removed in a recent update?
@@scribbles24 Shshsh, let the boy suffer, I enjoy it.
Then after that remove random players so it's always the same match over and over and over again.
@@scribbles24 Nope. They just added convar to disable it but it's still on by default.
random bullet spread is like a mildly less egregious form of the old random damage spread that people hated so much, but only affecting shotguns.
random bullet spread is on nearly EVERYTHING, yet valve only lets you tweak shotguns with the command. pistols, flamethrowers, grenade launchers, sticky launchers, miniguns, needle guns, SMGs, and revolvers. really, the only things that aren't random are melee weapons, most projectiles, snipers, and sentries.
personally, i kinda don't care about shotgun spread. not because i don't think we shouldn't remove randomness, but because its a bit of an unfair buff to shotguns when everything else has to suffer.
@@turmspitzewerk i would personally take spread off of everything except miniguns, and maybe pistols because long range spam on sentries *could* be too strong on classes that aren't supposed to do well against sentries, unsure on that one. on sticky launchers its so minimal that you can hardly notice it even holding your crosshair still and spamming left click, but sure why not take it off. spy revolvers have no reason to have it and are probably the most impacted after stuff like pistols and shotguns
@@turmspitzewerk The reason those other guns have randomness is to make them not amazing at sniping, which this game tries to avoid. There's a reason the amby was nerfed, and only 1 class does good damage at long range (and is hated for it).
@@nobleradical2158 yeah, it was nerfed to have damage falloff, not to make it more inaccurate. the reason it was good is because it was one of the few weapons that essentially had no falloff. there's no reason any other weapon in the game can't get the same treatment.
@@turmspitzewerk All other weapons have the same treatment already. What do you mean by that last sentence?
the real problem IMO is the fact that the fixed spread is statistically smaller than the non-fixed. if they made the non-fixed spread the same size as the fixed then I think the difference would be way less noticeable
oh absolutely, if the cone was the same size as the fixed spread then it would be very hard to see the difference
I'd say maybe make it *slightly* larger than fixed, but otherwise yeah
I would still prefer a consistant amount of damage rather then gambling.
Random spread bullets do not fire at the edge of the max spread every time, on average they would shoot around were the fixed spread would be. If the fixed spread was the same as max random spread it would be near worst case scenario when firing at long range. The bullets would be less lopsided, but would be more spread out than average random spread bullets.
@@valinforeststorm6908 you haven't played the game have you
A year ago I had the idea of there being 9 circles that a billet could be in when shooting, making it still random looking but spread evenly
This is a good compromise IMO. The reason almost every shooter on the market has random bullet spread to some degree is because it looks really weird and unnatural when it's not there. If you had a square filled with 9 small circles, and one pellet would end up somewhere in each circle, that gives the advantages of each style. This is actually kinda how CS:GO's shotguns work -- there's random spread, but it's within a consistent pattern you can predict.
i think 1 perfectly accurate pellet +4 semi--accurate pellets +4 outliers would work, a dot, a small circle & a big circle.
@@TheLetterJ10 There’s always one pellet that’s always accurate. If you want more information, watch Jane’s video about it
@@thebushbros6626 i know
@@QuintessentialWalrus Tbh random spread should just disappear, it’s ancient “game design”, has no purpose and doesn’t make the game funny at all, at least random crits make the weapon glow and shits, funny the first few times then you start hating them too lol.
Me when my crit frontier justice shot only deals 18 damage when I'm only 4 feet away from my opponent
@SithLordTP Relatable
nah nah nah, when my frontier justice misses completely at point blank
@@bananaspice1967 What did he say?
@@SimoneBellomonte i forgor
3 damage
7:47 the beggars bazooka: am I a joke to you
Lmao was thinking that too
yes, yes it is
Yes.
yes
Yeah, I also thought about that. But it's balanced because it also shoots 3 rockets in very quick sequence, instead of 1. And don't get me started on Original and Standard Rocket Launcher :D
10:20 attention to detail, the medic's "animation" is choppier because of the ping thing.
This video's got Incredible attention to detail, nice job catching that one
Random bloom also makes the cone of damage larger (Zesty uploaded a video about it a few hours ago) making shotguns feel even worse at any range. Not sure why this mechanic hasn't taken the Damage Spread route and just been written out of casual
Because shotguns are ***supposed*** to do smaller damage at larger ranges in video games??????
@@SnazzySMM turn off random spread but make the cone larger to lower shotgun damage at range
@@blakjaket4472 Erm ackshuwally with fixed spread its not a cone its er pyramid, but yeah, if they were actually similar in size instead of fixed being much tighter then i really wouldnt care
@@SnazzySMM Damage falloff exists…….
@snazzymakesmusic this aint cod, tf2 shotguns arent close range 1 hit beasts they're a respectable mid range burst damage option and random spread kinda kneecaps them
I mostly play Heavy and use the shotguns on occasion and I tend to not notice RBS too much. But Scout on the other hand is a whole different story for me with RBS
real heavy main what?????
Everyone wants random bullet spread off until a mini crit boosted shortstop scout rolls up in your game
Tbh I tried that. Died in like 5 seconds. (Prob because I suck and it was uncletopia, but still unviable as hell)
It doesn't really matter if random bloom is on or off because the scout is going to djd anyway because he takes so much damage using the soda anyway.
@@Svettanka there is where the soda is for because when you crit(mini) it ignores damage fall off, which can do some pretty nutty damage from mid to far range.
@@Svettanka so getting close is pretty much a death sentence, which is the reason for the short stop for its tighter bullet spread on and off
So true, without RBS it's just another buff to scout
the main issue i have with random bullet spread is just how far the bullets can go from the fixed position. if it was a lot closer to the same size, i think it would be more fair.
I think it was shounic who made a video on the mechanics behind random bullet spread? either way, the video showed just how wide the spread is compared to fixed.
ye, agreed.
Also real shotguns have much better range that practically any videogame depictions them having for the sake of balance, like you can still do some serious damage at 100 feet. Meaning a "realistic" shotgun could at the very least 2 tap light classes from the far side of the 2Fort bridge.
Yeah lol.
snipins a good job mate
If you want a good in depth technical explanation of how Random Bullet Spread works take a look at Zesty's recent video on fixed spread. It not only explains it, but also the consequences of both removing and keeping it.
Yeah but fuck Zesty
i hate that guy, hes just a jerk
Did you watch the video?
@@BrochachoTheBro Hate him or not, he does still go in depth about mechanics of things which is still interesting.
@@AmeliaDoesYT Ya I did, gave it a full watch to allow the points to be made. I just feel a lot of the mechanical and in depth parts about RBS are further explained in Zesty's video compared to this one which has a rather surface layer.
10:20 the med slides in a little bit choppier cause higher ping the attention to detail is crazy
Hold up, that FaN spread is wild. Three pellets in one spot on the right side specifically. It's like the left barrel is plugged.
I always found this topic interesting, as random bullet spread on shotguns is a thing in A LOT of games, and it hadn't been an issue on most of them till recent times (CSGO shotgun rework) being one case.
Another way of fixing this, would be just increasing the accuracy of shotguns, having a tighter spread pattern would force players to aim better while also making shotguns more useful at mid distances.
Shotguns have worked like this for way too long, maybe people just dislike change.. Personally i don't care if the spread pattern is random or fixed i still suck at aiming with them.
It’s been an issue in many of those games though. I remember in fortnite in particular the random spread for shotguns was really egregious, and basically made it so it was up to chance whether or not you could one pump someone. It’s definitely just a bad mechanic in every game.
Honestly I think the random spread debate in TF2 only exists because there's a server option to turn it off. If that option was never there, at least 90% of the complaints would vanish.
I personally don't mind if it's on or off, but it should be noted that random spread has some benefits. TF2 is designed to favor close quarters engagements more than most other shooters, and fixed spread gives every weapon more range and accuracy than Valve intended when they balanced the weapons and classes. Random spread also looks and feels more natural.
Frankly, learning to anticipate and work around randomness IS a skill. Even poker has a competitive scene where people can consistently win. It's okay to not enjoy it, but TF2 was built with this idea in mind.
@@QuintessentialWalrus yes you summed it up clearly and nicely, imo better than the video did !
(tbf the video gave me the feeling of seeing someone bash RBS without really considering any over viewpoints and implications)
From the closed quarters mechanic, to the suspension of disbelief to preserve, you covered the subject more clearly and in more details, well done 👍
What did CS:GO do to shotguns?
@@iUseDemFrapz RNG in FPS games just needs to go.
What’s the point of even playing if an interaction is going to be decided by luck? At that point I’d just play slot machines if I liked randomness that much, actually nvm slot machines aren’t even random, cuz you’re always losing money. 🗿
it's crazy how, despite tf2 having some of the best mechanics ive ever experienced in a video game, it has/had 3 of the most awful, unnecessary pieces of bad game design i have EVER seen, like random bullet spread, random crits, and random damage spread at one point.
like seriously, the 3 worst mechanics i have ever heard of in all my time playing video games.
take a game that is fundamentally skill intensive, and just remove people's ability to express that skill. or reward them unfairly.
Counterargument #2 is basically saying “well it doesn’t REALLY affect the game,” but if that’s the case why should it even exist? At best it’s exactly the same as fixed bullet spread and at worst it adds meaningless inconsistency that makes the game worse.
Why did you blur out zesty’s thumbnail and name?
It is funny in that in my engineer frag video, this is one kill where I needed to use 5 shots to kill a pyro at the same distance. The shots’ damage was also inconsistent per shot.
Great video, well researched and amazing analysis!
My solution would be to reduce the area by which those random pellets can be placed in.
Cause uhh...
Random bullet spread currently makes it so that shotguns have a wider area they can hit in vs fixed spread. And it isn't a small decrease in potential accuracy, it is a large one.
Now something fun with fixed spread, it can actually allow you to place your target between the pellets. Random spread however makes that a little less likely.
Hot take but I would rather get rid of random bullet spread than random crits
I actually agree with you there. Random crits is something everyone complains about but it's unique to tf2.
@Fujitachi random crits come into play a few times each round. random bullet spread affects me every single time I fire my shotgun
@Fujitachi I'm not saying crits dont affect the game or they're not annoying. I fucking hate random crits. But random bullet spread affects my game damn near constantly if I'm playing almost half the classes in the game. It's just a question of what I encounter more frequently
@Fujitachi you're good. I probably wouldn't care as much if my favourite classes weren't engie and scout lol
Random bullet spread also fucks with the frontier justice a lot. There's been a lot of times when I only did 18 damage at medium range and wasted a revenge crit.
@@JohnDoe-px6nl its to prevent sniping people from across the map
@@JohnDoe-px6nl revolvers 100% need random bullet spread for balance purposes.
why did you blur Zesty?
In some cases, RBS can outright kill weapons for me, the shortstop being the perfect example as such. While RBS is far from the shortstop's biggest issue as a scattergun, it certainly doesn't do it any favors either. The shortstop having less pellets per shot and those pellets each dealing more damage means that the punishment of potential damage lost is so much greater despite it doing less damage than scout's other primaries. So while RBS may not play as big of a role due to the tighter spread, when it does work against you, the effects of it are noticeably greater. Every time I've tried using this thing, no matter how long I train with it to get used to it, I end up just using it at close range as a diet FaN or soda popper because the spread and damage falloff combined makes this thing pretty much unusable for its advertised range. Hell it's better to use it at that range because at least then if you can actually aim with the tighter spread, RBS is less likely to fuck you over, which is both harder to do than with other scatterguns and less rewarding per shot compared to other options.
You constantly fight against the design of the weapon itself more so than the actual enemy team as a result. Which is why the shortstop is the one weapon that I would say isn't even up for debate for having its bullet spread fixed, similar to the panic attack, due to it functionally behaving so different from other shotguns. You are seriously telling me the shotgun best suited for point blank range gets a fixed spread, yet the shotgun that is supposed to operate at mid-range just doesn't get it? Despite it dealing less damage at close range than its competition and basically the same at mid and long range (per shot) anyway because of the fewer pellets? The shortstop is already crippled by its mediocre damage, and RBS is just the nail in the coffin for this thing to me.
Thank you for reading my unhinged rant on my poor boy that valve massacred.
once again commenting to petition that I'd love to see differently shaped bullet patterns for each pellet-shotgun, with each shape offering slightly different styles of play.
taking into account the 10 pellets that most of the weapons use, shapes such as:
- A standing triangle with broader corners than the standard square, but smaller inner sides.
- A tightly spaced Diamond with no center bullet, spacing the center 2 evenly along the x axis, the marksman's shotgun (but should go to like the reserve shooter (but maybe reworked to deal less base dmg but in return better reward those blast air shots) or the family business, or something that trades base damage for tighter precision, but is not to the level of the shortstop
- A 5-5 2-column line meant to be spaced to reward near-perfect x-axis accuracy, but suffer if you shoot just a little left or right of your target.
- 3 horizontal rows of 3, 4, and 3 pellets close together, not quite as spaced out as the panic attack, but useful for like the widowmaker for always getting some edge on targets, especially crowd shoot-ups
- A center X of 5 pellets, with a tighter row of 3 on the bottom and 2 on the top giving an oblong egg shape of sorts, maybe for the BBB so it has a bit more central meat to the shots even when further away.
- a wide circle of 9 pellets with a single central pellet in the center. poor spread, but meant for a weapon like the backscatter where the upclose and personal could make a huge difference (i dunno, just throwing out ideas I've had in my head since UnusualSandwich's first video on this)
none of these are perfectly thought out or maybe even balanced, but I love the concept of unique pellet patterns as a replacement to RBS
One thing that is never brought up with rbs on shotguns, is that rbs isn't always negative. in zestys video on the topic, he recorded an average damage spread on the shotgun. He found that about 20 percent of the time, you'll be doing more damage than fixed spread. Which is a point that is undermined, occasionally you are worse for no reason or better for no reason. Basically being soft random crits. And on the topic of it being not noticable so therefore just keep it, If it's that unnoticable then why have it.
Yeah, rbs does more damage than fixed 20% of the time. What about the other 80%? I would rather be doing damage consistently at all ranges.
@@Svettanka Same here, I want consistency, not a chance to do more or less. It's not needed at all, it's a worthless mechanic that sits next to random damage spread and random crits in terms of worthlessness. All of these mechanics are garbage that delute the cool balance and gameplay of TF2.
You’re not even quoting the video right: he said that “the shotguns will do 20% more damage on average”. The problem though, is that this forgoes consistency.
@@skeletorthebest7204 Thanks for the correction (sorry if this sounds sarcastic)
Because it has 0 purpose, so counter-argument if it’s unnoticeable then why even have it in the first place?
The best argument for making fixed bullet spread the default for casual is the fact that Valve did away with random *damage* spread years ago, and we were better off for it. Random damage spread was awful and inconsistent, not rewarding skill whatsoever and leaving a lot of damage up to completely random chance.
The damage spread argument kicked up when you had the loch n load and direct hit able to just randomly 1 hit some classes while they were stock by pure rng. It was fuckin stupid.
The random crits are good because they aren't balanced _for a reason,_ they make the game funnier, and somehow, no matter how paradoxical it is, they make it fair in some situations (when your team gets steamrolled, and when a tryhard is getting 40+ killstreaks)
Random damage decrease on the other hand, isn't a random reward, while crits are annoying and fun based on pov, random damage in any form is just... Annoying.
@@shawermus They make the game funnier for the person who rolled a random crit*
@@shawermus he's right you know
@@Bread-kun Yeah lol, and this is basically the same thing, random spread allows you to either kill in situations where fixed spread wouldn’t be able to, or viceversa, either way it’s the exact same thing as random damage.
“Random bullet spread doesn’t matter, you just suck”
The 7 damage shot I did from 18 hammer units:
They removed damage randomizer, and now it's time for random spread to be removed. Also, remove random crits.
Nah, random crits are kind of funny. While it sucks when your opponent gets one, I’m willing to take that for the satisfaction of hitting a random crit.
@@Big_RandyTM Funny is subjective, and I personally gain no satisfaction from acquiring one.
@@highmedic2351 Womp womp
@@Big_RandyTM I actually quit the game for many reasons, but random crits were definitely a huge one. I mostly played on Uncletopia though, but it was always the same maps/modes/ anyway.
For something teased as "the definitive RBS analysis" in your last video and with a title citing that it "NEEDS to GO," this video really isn't persuasive in the slightest. More time is spent illustrating that it's a mechanic no one really notices than is spent making strong arguments for its removal. In the absence of these arguments, the counterarguments seem to be presented in their worst possible form for the sake of having an easy to tear down strawman and are padded with "nothing" counterarguments like #1 and #5 to make the whole seem weaker through dilution. I'd even argue that some points are misrepresented - for example the "real comments about RBS" don't explicitly shift any blame onto one's aim, one of which even hints that the key to 'get good' is to get closer.
In regards to RBS, I have very little stake in the game, believing in something like counterargument #3 with a dash of #6 myself but would not really miss it were it to go. Shotguns being somewhat unreliable at mid-range helps incentivize getting closer using your movement in a close-ranged movement-based game in tandem with mechanics like ramp-up, without having to make the standard shotgun spread so large that it makes shotguns outright useless at said mid-range. The negative impacts of RBS seem constantly overblown to me, the shotgun isn't the primary source of damage for 3/5 classes that can equip it, while the 2 classes who have shotguns in their primary slot have a pistol in their secondary to use at the ranges where RBS might make shotguns too inconsistent; the Engy additionally having a sentry gun and the Scout not only having increased ramp up but two unlocks that push for meatshots. In addition, every hitscan weapon in TF2 aside from the sniper rifle has some form of spread, not only adding to the uniqueness of said rifle, but calling into question why shotguns shouldn't have said spread if the others should. These aren't exactly beliefs I would die on a hill for, but my fair-weather relationship with them hasn't been shaken by, or even really questioned by, this video.
"It's how real shotguns work" also flops based on the fact that shotgun shells will have a LOT more than ten pellets in the shell.
Those are more like a cloud of tiny bullets
Honestly I'm torn on random bullet spread.
On one hand I understand that some players dislike inconsistent pellet spread, as it makes long-range shots less viable.
However, that's how shotguns are supposed to work. On top of that, fixed spread actually increases the effective range of shotguns giving them a straight up buff (as shown in Zesty's most recent video).
Shotguns can be used as sniper rifles irl. It doesn't lose strength and a pellet hitting you it's almost no different from a pistol shot. And they are reliable and accurate, it doesn't hit stuff sideways
@@skyper8934 Just like rocket launchers can be used to jump irl
did you watch the video@@evdestroy5304
Tf2 isn't realistic at all, randomness shouldn't be a factor when balancing
@@randomperson7350 But it is.
In terms of game design, having players access multiple characters or options is more random than it is orderly. It is not expressly random, but it falls into the vertiginous fun that games offer. Without vertigo and chaos (multiple options for play, in this example), games become boring. That’s why vertigo in game design is so important. Otherwise we’d all be playing Ryu vs Ryu mirror matches all day and Soldier 1v1s exclusively. So, in multiplayer games, randomness is actually key to a fun experience. Promoting only static, skill based play results in a game that is boring and, in my opinion, often toxic.
True, but I'm sure you're aware that RBS isn't random in those ways; it's not another option, just a dice roll on top of an otherwise skilled interaction.
skill based play is the opposite of boring in my opinion, it’s what makes games fun for me in the first place. I fucking love going from being a dude who gets his ass kicked every hour to improving and starting to kick ass back. randomness is an important element to some games, like mario party, or literally any card game, but it feels incredibly out of place in team fortress. despite how wacky it all is, even in casual tf2 is still a tactical shooter, it’s all about setting up defenses, pushing the enemy, getting in the perfect position to cripple the enemy, and working together as a team. but adding randomness just in my opinion takes away from the obvious depth tf2 has and makes it a worse experience. imagine if everytime you used a hadouken as ryu the damage it does and the speed at which it traveled the screen was completely random, it takes away from the obvious skill it takes to play the game and rips control away from the player, and that just sucks.
If I liked RNG that much, I’ll just go and play slot machines… also this only applies to single-player (somewhat), it’s funny the first few times you kill someone out of luck, then it becomes boring, not to mention frustrating when you die to a random crit yourself, literally the opposite of fun lmao, dumbest argument ever.
Also there’s almost no RNG in Street Fighter lmao.
@@ultra2424 Hell I hate RNG so much that I want it to disappear even in card games lol, anyway I completely agree with you man.
Also Pfp Sauce (Artist)? 🗿
UnusualFarter
w comment
@@zenithzv is the smelliest tf2 youtuber
I think people just wanted to keep random bullet spread just to keep Scout in check, but I think it's stupid and is why Soldier and Demoman have so many mains, I actually ranted about this years ago and I'm glad you made this video.
100% random bullet spread sucks on the shotgun weapons. However, the revolver, pistol, and SMG are balanced on the fact that they aren't 100% accurate laser beams. That just sounds like something that doesn't fit very well in TF2. They aren't meant to do good damage across the map even if you have perfect aim, because that would be kinda ridiculous. So, I am fine with the current state of those weapons. Unlike random bullet spread in shotguns, most people are comfortable with the idea of a pistol not being 100% accurate and it is kind of an assumption you make about the weapons when you first use them, that's a feature in basically every shooter.
They could also make random bullet spread a bit less bad by giving them a sort of weighted randomness. I'm not a professional in random number generation so just bare with me for a second, but what if the bullets had a sort of preference for going towards the center and being much more packed and towards the center? So instead of the bullets having a chance to just all go off to the side it's more likely that they will all just form near the center. I'm pretty sure random bullet spread actually makes the shotgun pellets spread out even more than fixed spread.
@@JohnDoe-px6nl the revolvers do 20 damage at max falloff, it's already plenty harsh
I think you missed the most important argument for removing rbs, the fixed pattern is about 50% smaller than the rbs cone. That's a major reason why you notice when it's turned off. Zesty jesus made a short video recently about it, I dont neccesarily agree with his opinion on the topic but his explanation on how it realistically affects play is good
9:10 Wrong, that counterargument is so wrong. If it was real life, shotguns, namely ones with spread would be deadly in single shots up well past the ranges this game uses. Basically slugs would out range sniper with many pelts would out range solly's max drop off.
Shot guns are "short ranged" Yet if ported right to video games they would be one shot monsters from across the map because the ranges games deal with are too close.
I've always been curious how this could be with miniguns 4 pellet shots
Instead of removing bullet spread for pistols altogether, what we could do is give them CS:GO-style fixed spray patterns. So it's not random, but they're also not laser-accurate either.
To somewhat buff the pistols (and SMGs) accuracies, they could make it like the ambassador, the reticle spreads and becomes innacurate, shooting on bursts to maximize damage at range, and maybe lower the damage on very long ranges
That could also work for the Tomislav, probably.
man the development of tf2 mustve been so scuffed. on one hand its some genius design. on the other theyre discussing how to include randomness. when all mfps games before were super consistent and even having cybersport events, talking about quake and cs here. what was their idea? maybe, because this was part of orange box, they expected a wave of new fps gamers. so they decided to focus on fun and easy access
hey just wanted to say I love watching your vids, they always make the week go down a bit easier :). I think i agree with pretty much every point here except the response to counter argument 3 for long-distance shots. I feel like shotguns are inherently designed for close quarters combat, and in almost any case, for a class that has the shotgun equipped, they have another weapon that excels at med-to-long range encounters (pistol, mini gun, rocket launcher). For that reason, I still think counterpoint 3 is somewhat viable, but could totally be argued against from another angle.
I mean you could literally put damage falloff and essentially achieve the same result of random spread except that on average you’ll do the same damage no matter what unlike random spread.
Do none of the children that make this nonsense argument realize that fix spread gets wider at range and cause you to hit less pellets anyway? Or forget damage falloff exists?
Your editing is masterful as always, if I may request, Mr SharkWhich, could you link your previous RBS video in the description so I can see the comparison?
If the video wasn't complete garbage sure, but I'd rather just keep that video a memory tbh
@@UnusualSandwich prefectly understandable, this one was a banger so do not fret, hope you're well
8:11
The problem with RBS is that its too random. If there the distributions of pellets was such that there are more pellets closer to the crosshair, and less farther away it would make sense. But currently its just random or the diffrence is minimal.
I do agree with your points. I think this video is a great improvment from your previews rbs video because it is much more researched and makes valid points.
SCouting in Mvm, you feel this the hardest. Due to everything going on lag is common but some times pelts end up on the side with out the bot making you miss all of your damage, even when you are just a pixel off target with the middle pelt.
I feel like Random Chance is best when it essentially acts as a fluctuation of difficulty where the hardest is still fun and playable if you have enough skill.
I knew about this random bullet from the basic shotgun and know i sometime can get lucky but it doesn't change the fact the skilled scout player seems to always kick my ass with it. So my problem is sometimes the spread seems get way bigger than it suppose to.
Just a few days ago I found your video about spread, there I gave a possible solution I feel I don't need to repeat here. But also I consider a semifixed spread, fix a trajectory but with a ninimal change of trajectory added to that, so the cloud is more or less the same at the end. I dunno, maybe I am complicating too much this.
From the other side, some shotguns in real life are developed to get a more fixed pellet pattern.
Only argument I disagree with is at 10:54. Shotguns were designed to be close-to-mid range weapons, even training mode tells you to use it as such. If you need to deal damage outside of this range you better have equipped a weapon that is suited for longer ranges or close that gap. In the case of the scout, his secondary pistol and his speedy n' jumpy boi legs. For pyro, the flare gun (or equivalent) or the thermal thruster.
Damage falloff
Another note about the pistol, smg, and revolver is that they are all effectively secondaries, while shotguns are either functional primaries or alternative primaries for a lot of classes. (I would say they're alternative primaries for soldier and pyro as soldier and pyro's primaries also double as utility while the shotgun is just pure damage)
That targeted blurring at 2:26 seems incredibly petty lmao
especially considering how similar the videos are and him directly talking about his argument right at the start of the counter arguments.
Yeah holy shit how cucked can you get
Still thinking that this game isn't csgo to have fixed spread, and just like you said, it can be mostly ignored, 'cause you're supposed to use shotguns in short range mostly, and then, mid range like a second priority y'know?
Aslo people who argue it can make the game more realistic, but if we are fair, if we want a REALISTIC shotgun in tf2, you just die to just chip damage
Short answer: I disagree with your argument, and believe that Shotgun Bloom is important to TF2's balance.
Long Answer: With what we know about Fixed Shotgun Bloom in TF2, it actually gives you a tighter spread, effectively increasing your range with shotguns, which I think is something that isn't as good as people think.
Pyro and Heavy aren't nearly as affected by this as they have much better secondaries (Flare guns and Lunchbox items respectively)
Soldier using a shotgun forces him to play more grounded and around his team, and it's mainly used in cases where your opponent is close to a point where rockets will do harm to you, and with it being best at close range, is where he'd use it.
Engineer with a shotgun, unless you are playing with Minis, plays mostly around his buildings and maintaining them, using his shotgun to deal with spies or with oncoming pushes.
Scout, however, would be made far more of a nuisance than he is atm. Giving scout the ability to deal more consistent damage at mid range is a poor balancing idea, since he is one of the most pesky classes to deal with due to his on-demand maneuverability, allowing him to do decent damage at a range where he's mostly safe is a very bad idea. It would make pyro v scout incredibly one sided as scouts just need to stay out of flame thrower range and take pyro down easily. As a pyro main, i'd think you wouldn't want that lol.
Shotgun Bloom, for scout mostly, is important because it keeps him in check. He should be forced to get as close as possible to deal the most damage as possible, instead of being able to do 50 damage shots from a distance where shotguns really shouldn't be the most effective. Shotguns are meant to be weapons where you want to be as close to your opponents as possible, because they're notorious for their wide spread of pellets. They're not mean to be precise. If they were, they wouldn't have bloom to begin with.
Also, removing random bullet spread on pistols, smgs, and revolvers is an incredibly stupid idea, to put it bluntly. Scatterguns being more accurate with bloom off is bad enough, but with a pistol that's more accurate? Scout just doesn't have to get close to deal with anybody, he's be borderline OP. Also consider the Diamonback and being 2 shot across the map in under a second, meanwhile the ambassador was nerfed for that same reason. Point is: TF2 is a game where most fights are taken at close to mid range, and making it so that fighting distance is stretched even further would make the game worse balance wise.
Random Bullet Spread is important to the balance of TF2, and I believe it should stay. Valve honestly would've removed it from casual back in MyM if they thought it was an issue.
This is so exaggerated. You wouldn't see a sudden rise of scouts peppering people for consistent 6 dmg chip from long range just because random bullet spread go turned off. Even with random spread off the pistol is still much more effective at longer distances than the scattergun, so scouts effective range would not change significantly. The only exception would maybe be with the shortstop, but that weapons whole gimmick is that it is more effective at longer ranges, and in its current state in casual its pretty meh, so buffing it really shouldn't matter.
You can say things like "it would make pyro vs scout more one sided", but this would only hold true if you ignore the fact that the pyro can also equip the shotgun and have more consistent ranged dmg too? And if you want to act like pyro equipping shotgun is somehow a huge detriment to his effectiveness (its not) then you also still have to ignore the fact that even with random bullet spread off its not going to suddenly make it so pyro can enter flamethrower range against a competent scout. Any good scout will still just hold s and shoot the pyro regardless of bulletspread being off or on, it might take 1 or 2 more scattergun shots (assuming the scout just doesnt use the pistol anyways), but the pyro is still most likely going to lose regardless. Saying it will suddenly make the matchup "incredibly one-sided" like its not already is very disingenuous.
Shotgun bloom doesn't really keep scout in check any more than any of the other random shit in casual. Its not like engineer/spam/chokepoints are going to suddenly stop existing in casual because his bloom is slightly more consistent on his scattergun. Scouts not going to be suddenly dominating every match and making it unplayable because he can deal a consistent 25 dmg at midrange instead of a dice rolled 10-30 dmg lmao. Its not like scouts are top scoring and dominating on every uncletopia match because his damage is slightly more consistent. In fact scout is still probably the least common class to see on the top of the scoreboard in those servers, because the greater presence of competent players in a 12v12 environment surprisingly enough, does not favor the short-ranged, single-target, glass-cannon class.
Also why even mention how shotguns are "supposed" to work? You realize this only goes against your argument. Shotguns irl are still lethal from long distances, a shotgun pellet hitting you from 50 meters away would probably still be lethal rather than doing 6 dmg.
Your arguments are really poor. It feels like you are just grasping at any reason possible, no matter how flimsy or insignificant, to keep random bulletspread (probably because zestyjesus said its good and you blindly follow whatever he says).
I lost so many braincells reading this thank you
At one point I was thinking about maining scout but I just couldn’t seem to hit my meatshots, I’m wondering how much of that fell onto my aim at the time and how much was random bullet spread
Wait, people are defending random bullet spread?
Why would you? It has all downsides of random crits without any upsides
I have a few interesting thoughts on the topic. I don’t mind the random pellet spread, but I think the issue is the spreads being too wide and often too lopsided to the left or the right. The idea should be that most of the pellets are landing center mass. For example say, make a circle that’s a 1sq foot area. A shotgun with 10 pellets should, say hit 8 pellets in that area at medium shotgun range with the extra two as outliers that just edge in the boarder of the area. Valve making half your pellets veer 3 feet off to the left is frankly insulting to peoples ability to aim. Valve has perfectly good spread mechanics in their other source fps games with shotguns that feature multiplayer, like CS:GO and Left for dead. I think TF2 should use pellet spread closer to those two games rather than this wonky system. In CS:GO, I won’t know the exact pattern of pellets, but they can be expected to land in a certain diameter at certain ranges with a generalized shape, so I know, roughly how much damage I’m going to do with a shot. Same with L4D2, playing Vs I know when to pop out to shotgun that Hunter on a roof or not depending on how far away they are. Or if I know he’s right around the corner, I know I can reliable walk around that corner and smack him into next Sunday. But in TF2, using shotguns is such a crapshoot.
the big reason why i dont entirely like random spread is if you look at 4:56
a shotgun would not spread that far and loose so close to the wall, so if you ask me all that needs to happen is that cone needs to be tightened, not ALOT but significantly so that way your pellets dont randomly fly up to space like you see here
why do people want class limits?
it's just a really bad idea. without it, only a select few people in each server can play the class they want, and then everyone else has to compromise to some other class that they don't want to play. and nobody is going to cry over an entire team of snipers, that's just funny. if they do, idk they can fuck off to another server or something
Playing against 5 engineers can be annoying most of the time.
@@RealNick04 And not being able to choose a class because others did is annoying too.
@@obamagaming2629 12v12 was a mistake overall. Medic combos and Engineer nests rule 12v12 settings without any kind of variation
@@JohnDoe-px6nl they didnt say anything about bots
@@crack4184 But this is casual
Middle of the road: Lock the central pellets per shot but let the dice roll on the rest.
It already works that way
just today i over extended as a pyro, decided to camp in front of the enemy's spawn and a pyro came around. we almost killed eachother, but he managed to slip back into the spawn and restock while i was at 42 hp. knowing i couldnt escape nor win the 1v1, i pulled out my powerjack and whacked him in hopes of a random crit. what do you know? my mistakes werent punished and i got away with an undeserved kill
Hey, I remember hearing from Fish on a Stick that Random Bullet Spread was removed from the game and that it is now only a togglable? Maybe I'm misremembering.
great video and very cool animations!
9:08 In real life, a shotgun would blow open your chest like a fat kid with a bag of doritos faster than you actually call for medic.....
9:08
I really want to know how you extrapolated this as the 'most commonly heard' argument for rbs because it really sounds like an asinine strawman.
Because allot of people actually use that as an argument lol. Just goes to show how little effort people put into their arguments just to have an opposite opinion to someone. Like Zesty
@@fujitachi The way it is presented in the video misrepresents the entire argument by framing it as "Oh TF2 should be more realistic" when in reality, there's more reasoning behind it such as balancing. Furthermore, aesthetic choices in a game isn't necessarily a bad thing.
@@okaychud hell, people even use that as an arguement in this comment section. it's a common arguement and a bad one at that.
i personally want it kept on because turning it off would be an indirect buff to scout. scout normally is very strong at close range and deals less reliable chip damage at longer ranges, forcing the scout to get in close and risking dying to deal more damage which was something mentioned in the developer commentary on hydro. if rbs was to be turned off there should definitely be a universal accuracy penalty across all shotguns similar to the backscatter.
My personal opinion on the topic is that spraying to the other end of a map is a fare tactic concidering other things that might feel like bs in this game, also gives you less motivation to use shotguns in casul concidering the fact that it makes shotguns less consistent, so either all of it is ok or none of it in this matter.
The worst problem with random bullet spread is that it gives inconsistent feedback on aim. Did I hit my shot dead-on and was just screwed by luck? Did I miss entirely and luck was just in my favor? I wouldn't mind random bullet spread if the probability of a pellet being placed somewhere decreased with distance, because random bullet spread does benefit new and less-skilled players and thus is good for the health of the game. But the way it's implemented is horrible.
Allow me to explain: The normal shotgun has that 9 pellet spread, right? The top right pellet is more likely to end up within an inch of where it would be placed without spread than it is to end up within 1-2 inches, and it's more likely to end up there than within 2-3 inches, etc. It's fairly simple to do. Pick an orientation at random (in dice terms, we'll say it's 1d360, so a random degree in a circle) and then produce several random numbers centered around 0 (in dice terms, say 6d6 - 21). This will produce a bell curve where the most common result is no spread, the majority of results are close to the center, and as you get further out, the probability of a pellet ending up there gets extremely low.
With all due respect shotguns being low damage / inconsistent at long range is kind of the point.
5:54 I’ve actually used Offline Practice quite a bit because it’s hard for me to find a community server with sv_pure 0 when I want to play with mods, though now I use the bot overhaul mod
I know some about game mechanics. In tf2 there are a lot of mechanics that may not be explaned to players, like random crits and bullet spread.
But as random crits can be clear as day when it helps or punishes you, bullet spread isn't as noticeable while having much more effect on game outcomes.
A simple random crit can save a game but rarely have an effect on games other than sending players back to respawn.
Random crits are kinda rare, but bullet spread is in every shot of shotgun. Sadly there was way to many times when one more bullet would have made me a winner.
Havind really good aim is just not revarding in this game with shotguns,having the crosshair right on the target and hiting 3 pellets...
while rockets have fixed explosion radious is kinda not fair.
Back to the fact that bullet spread is heavily effect the games outcome: aggain shotguns can be used by 5 class if i'm right and in a match u may have multiple of them bringing shotguns. The fact of multiple people can use these weapons and constantly roll the dice is just not helping in the favor of game balance.
(two scouts fight who wins? it should be the one who is the most skilled and well have better equipment [240hz monitor...] but no this little cheaky bullet spread mechanic can curve your bullets off the enemy and make you reggret ever choosing a shothun) there is a lot more aspects of this patter i could touch but it's already too long.,.
One person complained about this and now the community will complain too until the next thing
why is zesty's video blurred lmao 2:27
I think there is still need to be some random bullet spread, but instead of just having flat random disribution of bullents within a circle, shotguns should take fixed bullet spread and apply natural distribution to these.
I think they kinda already do. Zesty did a video where he shot like 100 times on a stationary heavy and recorded the damage numbers, and it was a standard bell curve distribution.
The tf2 community is the only one I have ever heard complain about this and as someone who doesn’t play this game, it’s extremely confusing
TF2 has quite a few unique things that people sometimes complains off. For example - random critical hits! :D
people play this game too much, so they don't really understand what makes it fun and are addicted to high moments
I feel like fall off and ramp up are mainly for other weapons but not shotguns as they are meant to have like extra fall off and ramp up (if that makes any sense) and if fixed bullet spread was implemented I feel like it should have a few different patterns to switch between at random and only 1 in the center as to show this is a close ranger weapon
Edit I feel like random bullet spread should be in a tighter cone too
The Pistol, SMG and Revolver all have enough spread to be useful at the range that they need to be and slightly further while not as good at further ranges, which is about the same way all weapons function. They can still deal chip damage, but they're really not supposed to be as heavily relied on, mainly as a back-up weapon for when the situation demands it. Sniper's got their rifle, scout and engi got shotguns and spy's gun is incredibly powerful in the right hands as it is. They're consistent and inconsistent just enough
me when i confuse buckshot with a old volley fire gun. (look it up it has 12 barrels)
Oh and on the topic of pistols I personally don't mind the spread on them because they fire so fast but I would say keeping their base damage and ramp up the same but just adding a tad more falloff in exchange for no spread would maybe balance it out? whos to say though
Yeah damage falloff is literally the no-RNG counterpart to random spread, it essentially achieves the exact same purpose.
The issue is it becomes a fairly decent buff for scout who's already a very strong class. It does buff engineer too but it wouldn't really be felt as much as a scout running around with crit a cola.
The scout being unreliable mid range damage unless using the shortstop kinda fits with his theme as a class and is a balancing point of high risk high reward where you can get close enough where random spread really doesn't matter and guarantee those meaty hits.
It's something that helps keep the game focused a bit more focused on close range encounters which is something the game strives to do. It's why every class isn't all that great at mid or long range save for the sniper and demo, and I suppose heavy for some mid range I guess.
Also its a shotgun.
No it doesn't serve Scouts balance. It just randomizes something that has already been dealt with by 2 other very good mechanics. Spread and Falloff. All it does is sometimes fuck me over and sometimes fuck over my target for absolutely no reason. If you want to pull the Realism card then let me introduce you to rocket jumping.
what was that song at the end btw?
Since removing it would change virtually nothing valve just does not remove spread lol.
To be fair there is some fairness in random bullet spread, the same with crits, being that all players are pitted against each other with the same rules. What playing dnd thaught me is that rolling a bunch of dice results in both high rolls and low rolls, but statistically they all have a certain average, which acts like a constant, and two player rolling 3d6 for a thousand times will result in their both averages being 10.5, despite how random dice rolls are
I remember when I first started playing TF2 and had shit for aim, I hated using any shotguns because they felt so inconsistent and I couldn't tell if I was aiming correctly. Of course, I eventually learned that the reason for it was random bullet spread.
nah ur just bad
@@bananar1403 I was bad. Like I said, I just got started playing. Random spread made it harder to understand and improve at the game.
@@Awesomeness-iz3dh oh i didnt see the part where you said you were new mb
@@bananar1403 Yeah. It's been years since I started playing, but way back then shotguns just made no sense to me and I hated them because of the inconsistency. I would've learned several classes way sooner and enjoyed them a lot more without it.
in regards to the comment about bullet spread on pistols, SMGs, and revolvers I think that should remain the same as it is still consistent damage, though maybe they could implement something like CS:GO's mechanic of a fixed spread pattern that alters over time, but then have it go completely random after the first few shots instead of just the very first one. cross-map accuracy with high-ish damage numbers after a full clip just doesn't belong on a class like the scout outside of the wrap assassin, which is just consistent moderate damage at long ranges. maybe an argument could be made for the sniper's SMG but that's more of a close range option anyway for when people attempt to rush him, and at that point the random spread doesn't really affect much but it could benefit from the same CS:GO-inspired change. I don't think it'd change much to do anything with the revolver though, it's just a regular gun that's good at doing chip-damage at a distance, removing the spread wouldn't really change that since it didn't affect the gun much in the first place
I love random bullet spread, it keeps the game from being the same every time i run a different gun. I think having the panic attack use fixed it cool tho, you can use it to get close and hit all your pellets
10:54 All the classes (except pyro) who can equip the shotgun have better long range options. Soldiers have rockets, Heavy has the minigun, Engi and Scout have the pistol. *Shotguns and scatterguns are simply not meant for medium-long range.*
Exactly bro how tf is no one saying this it makes me so mad that people expect a fucking shotgun to be consistent at any range
heavy and soldier's primary doesnt reform well at long ranges
@@Tendity natasha and direct shit whatre you on
Yet that's not the overall issue with RBS.
Is this some scout/soldier/pyro/heavy problem I'm too engie main to understand?
(I don’t play tf2 so if I get anything wrong please correct me) I think that RBS should stay. First of all, if you wanna use a shotgun for long range against a group, that should be fine. But one person in a long range, you can just use your pistol or primary unless you’re pyro, but if you want to have longer range as pyro on your secondary, just pick a diff gun. And on other classes like soldier, scout, heavy, and engineer, they have all have a secondary or primary that is able to do long range dmg. Like soldier has his rocket launchers, heavy has his mini guns, engineer has both his secondary and sentry, and scout has his pistols. About the pistols, because they have the slight bullet spread (I don’t know what to call it) it’s easier to hit moving targets, but still possible to hit standing still targets. Also, the reason you’d pick a type of shotgun is for close range when your fighting someone, like soldier because his rockets do splash and self damage. You’re trading accuracy for an easier way to do dmg at close range, so if you’d like to not have this trade on your secondary (depending on class) you can, as I said, pick a different gun, while as scout or engineer if you don’t wanna do the trade you can pick the panic attack. Now maybe there would be a problem for pyro, because he is a close-range class, but then the shotgun would just make sense for him so he can shoot people at close range, and you can switch to a flare gun or other secondary for long range if you’d want. Now if everyone, even valve, would agree and get rid of bullet spread, it could in my opinion unbalance some things. I don’t know every weapon, subclass, play style, ect. but I know some of those could get changed by a small amount if RBS got removed. Also the panic attack would get affected lots and be just a bad gun to use. The whole point of the panic attack is to have almost no RBS. And I say almost because it gets less of a fixed bullet spread pattern each shot, so it would just be a type of gun no one uses anymore cause it would just be a normal shot gun after a few shots (which would be sad for the panic attack because it’s such a unique gun). And because the panic attack has a fixed bullet spread in the first place, as said in the video, it would be easier to get hits on people, making more RBS. It’s also, obviously, a random thing, so it can sometimes balance out a play style with RBS, like with the trip in smash bros. If that would be taken away, it could make some very overpowered and underused play styles that, in the hypothetical past, were used on a daily bases. If I had to change it, I’d make it a mix between the two bullet spread types. I would make something to first spin the bullets around the fixed point, but keep the shape. Then, the program or whatever would slightly move the bullet around randomly in a area that I’ll call “Pellet Spread Area” or PSA which is an area around the pellet that the pellet is randomly put in, and it would be small. it would still, technically, have a fixed bullet spread but you still have a chance for a bullet or two to miss. If you were to miss 0-2 shots with my idea, you’d have a dmg range 72-90, and if somehow you were to miss 2-4 pellets, you’d have a dmg range of 54-72, which in my book is pretty good. I’m not sure how big the PSA would be, but all I know is it would be just bigger than the pellet. Well, if I have anything else to add I’ll edit this comment or add another one under this one
PS. Wow, this comment is big. Also I was gonna write another thing, but I forgot lol. Wish me luck for me being able to get tf2, bye bye!
I think the best change for pistols/revolvers is to give them the same spread mechanic as the ambassador, with maybe tweaks on how fast. AKA, instead of full inaccurate -> perfect accuracy after 1.25 sec, have them gradually become more accurate if you space out your shots. So waiting 1 sec is more accurate than 0.5 sec, 1.2 sec is even more accurate, and full 1.25 sec is down the line.
Honestly my only complaint with fixed weapon spread is I think it being a square is dumb, it should be a circle.
Back in the Meat Your Match competitive update days when my aim was good shotgun pyro was surprisingly strong. But scouts with good aim become a terror at medium range. I'm not sure casual can handle it.
If your shot gun is loaded with gravel, could make more sense like a blunder bust.
I think it more of a piece of rebar used in a sword fight as a "less control" or how "resourceful" a person is using worse items making the moments of higher end weapons in there hands even more valuable. That could be a difficulty mechanic.
Otherwise randomize the cross hairs to give players carpel tunnel.
TF2 youtubers cycle through the same 3 topics every month and it's the worst thing ever
The fors a nature has what kind of pattern?!
I have it happen to me SO OFTEN that when I am at point blank range with a shotgun and my crosshair is right on the enemy, I still deal 0 damage, but sparks fly out of the enemy. This especially happens when backpeddeling, while the enemy advances towards me.
Maybe add a hidden 0-20% accuracy bonus while random spread is enabled, so it is still random if you'll be more accurate. (the game randomly picks a percentage number of 0% to 20% of a accuracy bonus for each shot.)
As someone who grew up with Call of Duty and actual shotguns I just kinda figure random spread is part of the choice of using a shotgun. In video games I'm not against the idea of a shotgun being a gambler's weapon outside of point blank range.
9:11 to people who say this, if you’ve ever seen a real buckshot then you would have to argue that the cone be significantly reduced. Shotguns irl also have a fair bit of range compared to their average fps counterparts.
7:49 did you know that at some point (idk if its still in the game) demoman pipes have random spread. Im not talking the tumble. True spread. Its hard to find evidence since its not well known (its not on the wiki) but certain 6s mods have it disabled and i know b4nny or habib has talked about this before.