@@jakobbraun5180 Because each planet having it's own star signs means they can't be judged with another planet's system as each has fundamentally different personalities and ways personalities can form, making it impossible for this other society to properly determine what or how they relate to they're own system. what happens when a species from a planet with more/less star signs show up on their planet?
@@nitris789 I wouldn't say they aren't smart. There's just a difference between intelligence and philosophy. Of course lots of people take it too far, like the guys in the video, but that's why you need to mix intelligence with philosophy. Most people only operate with one or the other and both intellectuals and philosophers claim the other is the problem. It's like the Light and Dark sides of the Force in Star Wars. You need both sides to be balanced for there to be peace. If more people understood intelligence and philosophy equally, there could be much less conflict in the world as people can understand morality and logic. This paragraph is a prime example of that, taking both mindsets and trying to explain how both can be beneficial. Understanding that ideal greatly affects ones empathy.
@@xvx_K1r1t0_xvx_killmeeebelieving that random rocks in space influence someone’s personality is a sign they’re dumb. I say this as someone who enjoys astrology as a simple bit of fun, but believing it to be true in even a small way shows you’re just stupid
People keep saying that they were born on different worlds and therefore they shouldn't align with those signs, but do you think the radical views these people hold will be swayed by that? They've apparently done it for centuries and their belief won't be undone by mere words.
It might be difficult at first but a view of the stars from earth would easily prove they weren't born under the sign of the Giliac because that constellation isn't visible
@@thee_number_six6227 Of course, there is also the possibility that they will not care because while the two may of been born on different worlds and had different star systems, they would technically be Giliacs on that planet. There are definitely problems with the episode, but the people not being so ready to charge their entire belief system, something they have followed for three millennia and have flourished because of it (at least so they believe) makes sense. They won't be swayed so easily with only a few weeks or months and any evidence the team brings would probably be considered falsified in an attempt to save their comrades and nothing more. The episode was interesting, but it didn't make me think "but if you say this or do that." Just so everything worked perfectly in the end. They had to create a false star to trick the people into believing Giliac as a sign wasn't the worst thing anymore and I found that a solid solution as they used their belief in the stars to trick and change their views, not by forcing it with words or violent actions. Why am I going so over the top and rambling about a decentish episode? Absolutely no idea
Only after falling into war with another force would they possibly realize their folly. Or die ignorant. Continuing on as they are, they’re bound to upset and be destroyed by an external force. Being so close-minded, they could easily antagonize someone into war. They’ve set themselves up to topple off that pedestal they’re so ignorantly prideful of.
Easy solution to this entire dilemma, they aren't Giliacs. Earth and the moklan home world have different astrological signs as they have different stars above their worlds. Any astrological science could prove it. Hell bring up a star map from their home worlds and bring it into date for their birthdays. Bet you they won't be born under a Giliac on almost any planet except this one.
Earth has gotten rid of the astrological signs for thousand of years in this timeline. There is no way for these future Earthlings knowing about this solution.
@@phatphan1403 astrology in this manner yes. But earth having Different stars would be something they are constantly reminded of every time they look at a star chart to plot a course. The perspective changes with each warp trajectory does it not?
Are yes because they seem like carm and reasonable people anybody who force cesections to stop children being born in the evil mounth will listen to reason
@@alexattfield3885 it’s not about them being reasonable or not. By all means if the barbaric fools refuse to see reason then cut the civility and demand the return of your crew. The Crew that the locals had no right to arrest. Talk when needed and see if you can dissuade this crazy foolish ideal about the stars. To the extent that their stars don’t correlate with the crews birthdays. If they refuse to see reason then drop the negotiation and make them see the gravity of their choice. Their abduction is a direct act against the Union. Especially under such baseless accusations of their birthday being evil.
This particular episode I'm more than certain was to poke fun in a very serious manner of Star Trek not learning anything about the planet before they make first Contact and they make it very clear in the episode how easy it is to look up the data on how the people of this planet operate
I mean…. It is a silly reason but admittedly the two birthday beans who showed up are power house warriors it doesn’t prove the argument but it definitely wasn’t helping
All it would take is showing a picture of a different night sky If astrology was legitimate in any way shape or form Every planet would have the same set of constellations
The absolute (beautiful) irony of him accusing them of being violent when he has them arrested and threatens to kill them if "the one with the ears" does something... is hilarious.
This is basically just a play on racism, most likely making fun of westernized countries who see themselves as a modern and more advanced than other yet will discriminate people based on the color of their skin or features instead of character.
It's to dodge copyright laws since they aren't adding anything to the content just farming views with content from a show. Chinese bot tactic like the Google translate speech to text shorts and videos.
@@linus9091True, but I think it is different if you have a country that is governed by its religious ideologies. While there are still many Americans that believe in Jesus, you can't really say its legal and political systems are based on Christian principles
@@thescholarsjourney661 it's really not because it's like arguing with a women or a brick wall you'll never get anywhere and it's impossible to win in an argument
@@dontlookatmyrooster8976 I mean, if an astrologist met an alien I think they'd at least consider that MAYBE things would be different. Take for example Stranger in a Strange Land.
The Nazis got many of their ideas about eugenics from the USA. The US involuntarily sterilized people... the state with the highest number was CA with about 20K. The Supreme Court upheld the law when it was challenged. Killing/culling/denial of care for the very young and the very old are central to eugenics. Canada has expanded assisted suicide. A few government officials during covid placed infected people in nursing homes, even after being told that the elderly are a vulnerable population, and this would increase the death toll... Why do you think eugenics is "silly"? I don't see the humor. I think we can agree that it is wrong. To call it 'silly' does not seem appropriate.
@@BP61652 It is based on the belief that inbreeding is good. The science shows that when your gene-pool has no depth life threatening genetic defects and fertility rates drop.
It is one thing if someone just enjoys astrology as a loose interest. When they start refusing to be friends with people, or have relationships, and start judging others personalities based on a fake star sign, that is when someone needs to take a long hard look at their life 🤦♀️.
So for everyone pointing out that since they’re from different planets the astrology people shouldn’t be able to hold them to their standard (cause they weren’t born under the Gilliac sign on that world). They do a procedure where they take a bit of everyone’s teeth to determine their exact age and use that to calculate and confirm that if they’d been born on their planet that they belong to the ‘problematic’ group.
This video infuriated me for so many reasons. The main reason of which was when the (forgor their name) the people in white suits believed that, an even more advanced species, believed the same thing they do. One would think that people who came down from a spaceship would have different beliefs and that we should respect them.
The whole thing about this is that they know for a fact other planets are populated now and that would mean other planets, who have different angles of different stars, would not be covered by the astrology of one particular viewpoint planet
There was an easy way to fix this, they were born on different planets and so the signs of that one planet would affect different species and planets differently.
Considering that different planets will have different year-lengths, let's say someone "born in Leo" comes from a planet with a 400+ day length year (in Earth units) instead of 365...so then every single year their birthday would fall in a completely different month, in Earth-months.
I wanna see a scifi setting where a star-trek like organization acts peaceful and nice, but blows up any planet that would inconvenience them. Like. They would label this planet’s culture as backwards and primitive, then destroy them.
Its always so funny to me when the comments section is filled with people giving out the "simple solution" when most of the time it'll pronably be seen as anticlimactic cop out or an "easier said than done" type of thing.
Yeah I am not nearly as tolerant as this captain. Sir what you just did arresting an ambassador was tantamount to declaring war on 100s of star systems each far more powerful than this backwater planet? Last chance release my crew.
Everyone is saying "oh they have different star systems" But the date remains the same across the galaxy. What you know as January 1st, 👽 could know as Juydbeery 90th. So it doesn't matter that she was born on a different planet, whatever day it was on her planet, it was the same day on their planet.
For an advanced planet its pretty funny that they believe someone is dangerous based on their astrological signs. Ones that dont even apply to the same stars and signs as humans and Moclans
It wouldn’t have mattered if they showed them different star charts, from their point of view the stars they see are the stars they see, their views are so ingrained in their society that the hysteria it would cause would not be worth it to them. It’s all political as well.
This is why you need an astrology girlie on every spaceship. "Nah, they aren't jiliacs, one's a capricorn with Mercury in the retrograde which is the tamer of chaos" and then we get a full episode of hippie vs bigot trial in a planetarium without any extra frills
Not that that species would be swayed by the argument, but if one is born on a different planet and shares the same "birthday" as someone born on a different planet, wouldnt their astrological signs be different or even obsolete because the planets would have different stars?
I mean hes kinda not wrong about the 'violent' and 'unpredictable'. We've seen them both kinda show they can be violent and unpredictable. When its called for of course
Union really should have supported the Captain and demanded the release of their crew. Otherwise risk an altercation for such an outdated belief system.
That's why you always do reconissance first, people! Really, the belief that and advance civilization is automatically bening is quite stupid. Specially when we have many examples on this show of advanced spieces being assholes. Technological evolution does not equate moral evolution in a positive vector.
They really failed to consider that different planets would have different stars and therefore different star signs
That's exactly what he's saying, that the stars could mean different things. @@bryang473
Yeah but these people genuinely believe in astrology, you majorly overestimate their intelligence to realise such things
I mean if they hadn't said giliacs they'd actually could have made it work.
@@Kino_Cartoonwhat‘s the problem - makes perfect sense that they have their own astrological name system
@@jakobbraun5180
Because each planet having it's own star signs means they can't be judged with another planet's system as each has fundamentally different personalities and ways personalities can form, making it impossible for this other society to properly determine what or how they relate to they're own system. what happens when a species from a planet with more/less star signs show up on their planet?
Well, since they were born in a different star system wouldn’t that mean their births don’t follow their astrology system?
They went with "when in Rome"
Yeah well people who believe in astrology signs aren't exactly smart
@@nitris789 people who believe in immaterial BS don't really look for consistency, they look for excuses
@@nitris789 I wouldn't say they aren't smart. There's just a difference between intelligence and philosophy. Of course lots of people take it too far, like the guys in the video, but that's why you need to mix intelligence with philosophy. Most people only operate with one or the other and both intellectuals and philosophers claim the other is the problem. It's like the Light and Dark sides of the Force in Star Wars. You need both sides to be balanced for there to be peace. If more people understood intelligence and philosophy equally, there could be much less conflict in the world as people can understand morality and logic. This paragraph is a prime example of that, taking both mindsets and trying to explain how both can be beneficial. Understanding that ideal greatly affects ones empathy.
@@xvx_K1r1t0_xvx_killmeeebelieving that random rocks in space influence someone’s personality is a sign they’re dumb. I say this as someone who enjoys astrology as a simple bit of fun, but believing it to be true in even a small way shows you’re just stupid
"The starts dont lie!"
"What do you mean? I have been to planets on those star systems, you might as well worship your own sun!"
That has happened in history
Bold of you to assume they didn’t
Praise the Son brothers and sisters
Be careful what you wish for or someone will rip out your heart on top of a pyramid just to make the rain stop. Or vice versa.
At least the sun is real and you can directly relate its effect on the planet to your own survival.
The thing is, they come from a different star system with a different astrology, therefor that planet's astology has relation to theirs
Their planet. Their rules. You're there, you are under their signs now
@@Ryoga100Are you familiar with the expression "glassing"?
Yeah.
Don't fuck with others.
Do you mean no relation?
@@Ryoga100 naw you follow the winners rules.
That's exactly what I was thinking
People keep saying that they were born on different worlds and therefore they shouldn't align with those signs, but do you think the radical views these people hold will be swayed by that? They've apparently done it for centuries and their belief won't be undone by mere words.
It might be difficult at first but a view of the stars from earth would easily prove they weren't born under the sign of the Giliac because that constellation isn't visible
@@thee_number_six6227 Of course, there is also the possibility that they will not care because while the two may of been born on different worlds and had different star systems, they would technically be Giliacs on that planet.
There are definitely problems with the episode, but the people not being so ready to charge their entire belief system, something they have followed for three millennia and have flourished because of it (at least so they believe) makes sense. They won't be swayed so easily with only a few weeks or months and any evidence the team brings would probably be considered falsified in an attempt to save their comrades and nothing more.
The episode was interesting, but it didn't make me think "but if you say this or do that." Just so everything worked perfectly in the end. They had to create a false star to trick the people into believing Giliac as a sign wasn't the worst thing anymore and I found that a solid solution as they used their belief in the stars to trick and change their views, not by forcing it with words or violent actions.
Why am I going so over the top and rambling about a decentish episode? Absolutely no idea
@@thee_number_six6227Assuming it'll work.
Only after falling into war with another force would they possibly realize their folly. Or die ignorant. Continuing on as they are, they’re bound to upset and be destroyed by an external force. Being so close-minded, they could easily antagonize someone into war. They’ve set themselves up to topple off that pedestal they’re so ignorantly prideful of.
Sounds like islamofascism. Basing real life on fairytales and backwards beliefs. Funny and silly.
The last thing he said was extremely hypocritical.
What thing and who?
What thing and who?
@@Cryoside_8493the violent and unpredictable line
Isn’t that prettty much the whole zodiac sign system
@@dreamer_4937 Bingo.
Easy solution to this entire dilemma, they aren't Giliacs. Earth and the moklan home world have different astrological signs as they have different stars above their worlds. Any astrological science could prove it. Hell bring up a star map from their home worlds and bring it into date for their birthdays. Bet you they won't be born under a Giliac on almost any planet except this one.
Is they are stupid enough to believe in astrology what makes you think they will believe this
If they’re stupid enough to think astrology means anything they’re not gonna bother with that
Earth has gotten rid of the astrological signs for thousand of years in this timeline. There is no way for these future Earthlings knowing about this solution.
@@phatphan1403 astrology in this manner yes. But earth having Different stars would be something they are constantly reminded of every time they look at a star chart to plot a course. The perspective changes with each warp trajectory does it not?
the point is that the atro sign is in compatison to behavioral it doesnt matter what star its the timing
If people relied on pseudoscience
A lot of them do
Way to many do
Sadly already a reality
If? Our entire political system is based on it.
@luxaeterna365 Honestly, why would anyone would be drawn to it when it has no or baseless evidence.
All they had to say was that Earth has different astrological signs than that plannet, easy open and shut case
Exactly what I said!
No doubt they would still freak out because to their stars they are abominations
You think someone dumb enough to genuinely believe astrology would bother with that excuse
Are yes because they seem like carm and reasonable people anybody who force cesections to stop children being born in the evil mounth will listen to reason
@@alexattfield3885 it’s not about them being reasonable or not. By all means if the barbaric fools refuse to see reason then cut the civility and demand the return of your crew. The Crew that the locals had no right to arrest.
Talk when needed and see if you can dissuade this crazy foolish ideal about the stars. To the extent that their stars don’t correlate with the crews birthdays. If they refuse to see reason then drop the negotiation and make them see the gravity of their choice. Their abduction is a direct act against the Union. Especially under such baseless accusations of their birthday being evil.
This particular episode I'm more than certain was to poke fun in a very serious manner of Star Trek not learning anything about the planet before they make first Contact and they make it very clear in the episode how easy it is to look up the data on how the people of this planet operate
In star trek you cant take prisioners, the ship can destroy the planet if they want and they can.
You feel like after a couple more these types of planets, they wouldn’t be so giddy about first contacts.
I mean…. It is a silly reason but admittedly the two birthday beans who showed up are power house warriors it doesn’t prove the argument but it definitely wasn’t helping
This is what the 1970's was like.
All it would take is showing a picture of a different night sky
If astrology was legitimate in any way shape or form
Every planet would have the same set of constellations
People who believe in zodiac signs be like😂
*cough cough* my ex 😂
The absolute (beautiful) irony of him accusing them of being violent when he has them arrested and threatens to kill them if "the one with the ears" does something... is hilarious.
they consider themselves an advance civilization but believes in baseless information as topography of the stars?
This is basically just a play on racism, most likely making fun of westernized countries who see themselves as a modern and more advanced than other yet will discriminate people based on the color of their skin or features instead of character.
This is more of a political (mindset) thing, which a high level of thinking doesn't correlate to.
And whe belive in money.
All of the characters sound like chipmunks.
Sped up duh
It's to dodge copyright laws since they aren't adding anything to the content just farming views with content from a show. Chinese bot tactic like the Google translate speech to text shorts and videos.
Speed increased to avoid copyright strikes
Bruh... They have inter-planetary communication technology & still believe in "Astrology".
Inteligence is fast but stupidity will always be faster
Some of us believe in a guy who walks on water and believe in gods with no prove of their existence.
@@linus9091At least religon serves a purpose.
@@linus9091True, but I think it is different if you have a country that is governed by its religious ideologies. While there are still many Americans that believe in Jesus, you can't really say its legal and political systems are based on Christian principles
@@oshomronicough cough abortion, televangelist,stam program cut offs
Bortus is one of the most patient people you'll ever meet
Argue that they werent born on that planet and the stars work differently elsewhere.😊
You will not be able to reason with anyone who takes astrology seriously. In real life or a show.
@xanithrustygaming6911 I mean no, but it's worth a shot....
@@xanithrustygaming6911be real here, is not like this people are reasonable
@@thescholarsjourney661 it's really not because it's like arguing with a women or a brick wall you'll never get anywhere and it's impossible to win in an argument
@@dontlookatmyrooster8976 I mean, if an astrologist met an alien I think they'd at least consider that MAYBE things would be different. Take for example Stranger in a Strange Land.
My response would have been "release my people before my ship renders your planet into nothing more than a foot note in galactic history."
Just as silly as eugenics.
The Nazis got many of their ideas about eugenics from the USA. The US involuntarily sterilized people... the state with the highest number was CA with about 20K. The Supreme Court upheld the law when it was challenged.
Killing/culling/denial of care for the very young and the very old are central to eugenics.
Canada has expanded assisted suicide. A few government officials during covid placed infected people in nursing homes, even after being told that the elderly are a vulnerable population, and this would increase the death toll...
Why do you think eugenics is "silly"? I don't see the humor.
I think we can agree that it is wrong. To call it 'silly' does not seem appropriate.
Lol eugenics are based
@@BP61652Yeah based on nothing.
@@BP61652bait
@@BP61652 It is based on the belief that inbreeding is good. The science shows that when your gene-pool has no depth life threatening genetic defects and fertility rates drop.
This would’ve been a totally different story with Captain Kirk
And if you pull that stunt on Sisko or Janeway on a bad day...kiss your asa goodbye
@@SignificantpowerSisko will do what needs to be done, He can live with it.
@@MediumRareOpinions Erase that entire personal log.
I like thair governments uniforms. They look very clean
Bortus is making it clear, “I want MY gift, not our gift”
Literally Brian from family guy
"They're violent and unpredictable"
"Yet we're alive so the stars played you"
Every astrology girl
is that seth macfarlane lmao
Yeah, that's him ;D
He's also literally the creator of the show XD
“They are violent and unpredictable”
He says violently and unpredictably
"The stars do not lie" goes hard tho ngl
The second they heard her talk about this they sprung into action and shut everything down bruh 😂
In all fairness those characters are the most violent and unpredictable haha
Holy shit astrology girl would have the time of their lives with this ep 😅
Ahhh they're dealing with space racists today
It is one thing if someone just enjoys astrology as a loose interest. When they start refusing to be friends with people, or have relationships, and start judging others personalities based on a fake star sign, that is when someone needs to take a long hard look at their life 🤦♀️.
Oh, an episode about being a Gemini in an office job. I feel so represented.
They have failed to consider that such hostile action could get them glassed.
Literally equivalent to people saying they can’t date someone because of their zodiac sign
If "spiritual" Facebook moms ruled a planet.
We need more seasons of Orville!!!!
So for everyone pointing out that since they’re from different planets the astrology people shouldn’t be able to hold them to their standard (cause they weren’t born under the Gilliac sign on that world). They do a procedure where they take a bit of everyone’s teeth to determine their exact age and use that to calculate and confirm that if they’d been born on their planet that they belong to the ‘problematic’ group.
Astrology has and always will be bull shit
Churches when they learn about Scorpios.
What a coincidence that this planet's calendar exactly syncs up with Earth's
This video infuriated me for so many reasons.
The main reason of which was when the (forgor their name) the people in white suits believed that, an even more advanced species, believed the same thing they do.
One would think that people who came down from a spaceship would have different beliefs and that we should respect them.
The whole thing about this is that they know for a fact other planets are populated now and that would mean other planets, who have different angles of different stars, would not be covered by the astrology of one particular viewpoint planet
There was an easy way to fix this, they were born on different planets and so the signs of that one planet would affect different species and planets differently.
It is amazing that a race that believes that has actually survived for that long.
All u say is “hey I’m an alien. I’ll burn ur planet if u don’t give them back”
And there are people who actually function like this.
Bortos is my favorite character 😂
Well damn, they made an episode for the Astrology girls 😂
How people react to a Scorpio joining the party lmaoo
I felt that
This looks like an Indian show. "Stars don't lie" !
They probably use homeopathic medicine, psychics, and religion too LoL
the astrology girl and her friends when I say I'm a gemini
Was a great series. Pity they stopped.
I had to say.. Bortus and Kelly seems the violent type to me.....
Zodiac Racism is kinda fire
Considering that different planets will have different year-lengths, let's say someone "born in Leo" comes from a planet with a 400+ day length year (in Earth units) instead of 365...so then every single year their birthday would fall in a completely different month, in Earth-months.
Thought that was Darth Maul for a second
I wanna see a scifi setting where a star-trek like organization acts peaceful and nice, but blows up any planet that would inconvenience them.
Like. They would label this planet’s culture as backwards and primitive, then destroy them.
The different star systems on separate planets. They most likely rotate differently meaning their birthday may not even be the same
At that point going in guns blazing would be the only true logic that olanet would ever see.
Its always so funny to me when the comments section is filled with people giving out the "simple solution" when most of the time it'll pronably be seen as anticlimactic cop out or an "easier said than done" type of thing.
Imagine if we arrested scorpios 😂
I don't see why they didn't just threaten them by blocking out all of the stars somehow. They should be able to sci-fi BS their way to accomplish it.
Sounds like exterminatus to me
Star signe? Obviously heresy. Clearly an idea inspired by chaos taint
Yeah I am not nearly as tolerant as this captain. Sir what you just did arresting an ambassador was tantamount to declaring war on 100s of star systems each far more powerful than this backwater planet? Last chance release my crew.
It’s like arresting someone for being a virgo or whatever.
Don’t let this distract you from the fact that bortus wants separate events
i swear 2050 will be like this lol
I'm never going to get over how the Oroville is more Star Trek than Star Trek is
Everyone is saying "oh they have different star systems"
But the date remains the same across the galaxy. What you know as January 1st, 👽 could know as Juydbeery 90th.
So it doesn't matter that she was born on a different planet, whatever day it was on her planet, it was the same day on their planet.
Their reaction to hearing about their birth date was very violent and unpredictable. Might want to recheck which star sign does what.
For an advanced planet its pretty funny that they believe someone is dangerous based on their astrological signs. Ones that dont even apply to the same stars and signs as humans and Moclans
To be fair it’s true.
Kelly fits the gilliac sign.
Although I don’t think bortus does.
It wouldn’t have mattered if they showed them different star charts, from their point of view the stars they see are the stars they see, their views are so ingrained in their society that the hysteria it would cause would not be worth it to them. It’s all political as well.
I’m more of a Fuhuhluhtoogan but I get why jittleyangs are dangerous
I mean he wasn’t wrong… 😂😂😂
This is why you need an astrology girlie on every spaceship. "Nah, they aren't jiliacs, one's a capricorn with Mercury in the retrograde which is the tamer of chaos" and then we get a full episode of hippie vs bigot trial in a planetarium without any extra frills
I don’t believe that girl didn’t know what astrology was! 😂
Not that that species would be swayed by the argument, but if one is born on a different planet and shares the same "birthday" as someone born on a different planet, wouldnt their astrological signs be different or even obsolete because the planets would have different stars?
Basically how it feels being a gemini...
This is why the idea of the prime directive is stupid. Somtimes they need intervention
I mean hes kinda not wrong about the 'violent' and 'unpredictable'. We've seen them both kinda show they can be violent and unpredictable. When its called for of course
Subjugation is the only way to deal with a culture like that.
"Premature c section"
Anything to keep from saying "abortion"
The plot hole is time is only governed by the solar systems star/sun and the plabet they inhabit , the flow of time could be different there
This place might be worse than planet reddit
Even worse than being a Sagittarius 😂
Union really should have supported the Captain and demanded the release of their crew.
Otherwise risk an altercation for such an outdated belief system.
But they are violent and unpredictable.
Earth if women were in power:
Stars dont lie, but arbitraty quantifications of someone's entire personality snd bring base on them certainly tell a fib or two
More advanced than people who follow an astrological caste system.
@@EvergreenVB 🤔
That's why you always do reconissance first, people! Really, the belief that and advance civilization is automatically bening is quite stupid. Specially when we have many examples on this show of advanced spieces being assholes.
Technological evolution does not equate moral evolution in a positive vector.
Oh hey, it’s Patrick Fabian, Howard Hamelin himself