Really cool that a lot of comments like the mixed format of reaction to matches and then analysis/translation of tutorial. If we could get three more channel members, I'll commit to doing something like this once a week. As you can tell by the views, this video isn't going to do well as the bullshido masters getting beat up stuff, but I think a sizable number of viewers want this, so let's get a few more viewers to join as channel members. Let me know if you join as a channel member!
I am subscribing for more like this. I have practiced Tibetan White Crane Kung Fu, and it is really great to see how the techniques in Shuai Jiao would fit into other Kung fu styles. When I get a chance to start practicing again, I hope to emphasise the grappling aspects of the art, and content like this would be really helpful.
6.09min that sweep kick is called "Shi Zi Tui" in Kung Fu forms. You can find it a lot. Imagine these shaolin monks doing a kick with a punch at the same time. Thats the same movement. The techniques in the forms are pasted together. Reason why kung fu sucks are the people who are noobs and do not understand which content is included in the forms....most "masters" are those noobs
This is great to see. Shuai Jiao was the first martial art I learned and it's funny how it carried over to everything else I did in the future. Would love to see more of the tutorials. It's a dying art form, and sharing more of it would be a great service to history.
@@complexblackness the grapples and throws are very similar to ones found in judo, wrestling and other grappling arts... Only difference is the short sleeves on their uniforms which require you to aim for shoulder and upper arm grabs instead of forearm grabs like in judo
@@complexblackness SJ is also largely taught from the ground up. Everything started with footwork and the legs. Like when you learn to box they first teach you how to stand and how to move. You likely won’t even throw a punch your first week.
I would love to learn Shuai jiao. Unfortunately none in my area... heck if there was someone in my area who DOES know it & have certification, I'd try to start it up under Count recreation. Or a club
It is a great art. I was introduced to it through Yang Jwing Ming's Shuai Jiao curriculum that was taught as part of the Kung Fu option at the dojo I trained at as a child. Then while Wrestling and doing Judo I participated in several clinics and tournaments hosted by Matt Furey. Honestly this is why I never understood people complaints about Kung Fu, because Yang Jwing Ming's curriculum for White Crane & Taijichuan is heavy a stand-up wrestling art. I was already doing Judo & Goju Ryu before I was taught Kung Fu and everything, I learned complimented what I already knew. In fact Goju Ryu is a white crane derivative, & Kito Ryu the parent of Judo has a lineage to hand seizing/taking techniques (chin na fa) derived the southern chinese scholar monk Chin Genpin; so I already knew virtually the same curriculum that just evolved into distinct arts.
@เด็ก พเนจร living in NJ, which is the densest populated state in the USA, & living 30 minutes from NYC basically afforded me access every martial art. If you can think of something not illegal then you can find it in the megalopolis of the Mid-Atlantic States.
@@kevionrogers2605 Wasn't Yang Jwing Mings school in Jamaica Plain MA? Outside Boston. I used to live a block away and did BJJ with oe of his students. I also had a few of Matt Fureys books,
Never heard of Shuai Jiao before but i love judo with or without a gi and i think this short sleeve version makes perfect sense to practice as well. I've actually used this style for throws as a bouncer incidentally as grabbing sleeves and modifying a throw happens faily naturally in the moment as im sure many of you have experienced as well. Makes me think it would be good to practice specifically on opponents with vests as well to focus on throws that revolve around the specific grab points and how you will place your fulcrum for the throw.
Awesome to see you open minded! I’m so sick and tired of how cultish BJJ has become. I just had to block a BJJ cultist today on Instagram because he was acting like such a stereotypical BJJ bro.
@@FightCommentary You're tired of their nonsense as well huh? I have a zero tolerance for them. On the mat Online As long as the criteria for superior martial arts remains it's use by military and law enforcement And It's ability to deal with a 2v1 situation which has been the base of a self defense situation since before any of us was born..... BJJ hasn't earned that ego. Even the Brazilian military and law enforcement don't use BJJ to this day. Not in the 100 years since it's creation. I know this firsthand straight from the mouths of soldiers in Brazil. Those who know don't speak highly of BJJ or the Gracie's.
@@tonytomahawk5160 "As long as the criteria for superior martial arts remains it's use by military and law enforcement" Wouldn't be so sure of that myself; in the modern day some are either BS, incredibly toned down basic versions of what MMA guys can pull off, or just have really bad practitioners since the soldiers are focused on more relevant skills like shooting, surviving, and lugging heavy loads for ages. In particular, Russian Systema and Israeli Krav Maga seem to be small amounts of BS, large amounts of terrible practitioners. Chinese Sanda seems legit though, as does whatever the heck some of their local cops are practicing. Half the stuff from American cops looks bad, but their military stuff looks alright.
@@DarkwarriorJ Your opinion is irrelevant because what I stated was based on standards that were in place before either of us were born and remained for a reason. It was those same standards that caused BJJ to fail when the Brazilian military ran it through the paces. Also hand to hand combat in warzones aren't one vs one. The enemy doesn't stand there and wait for you to engage with the first attacker. MMA is a one vs one situation and that will never equate to hand to hand combat proficiency. MMA guys who are very good in the ring get picked apart in the streets by drunk frat boys. I've seen this with my own eyes at the bar multiple times. Sad this common sense needs to even be explained.
this is legendary brother the little underhook he did in the instructional creating leverage from the elbow blew my mind. great way for off balancing and leverage without a gi
While it's true that Shuai Jiao has a long history of attestation, it's also evolved just like other arts, especially under influence from Mongol and Manchu takedown wrestling styles. Also, several Chinese martial arts systems (e.g. Long Fist, Taiji etc) have a focus on takedowns, so they can also be considered branches of Shuai Jiao too (if we consider "pure" Shuai Jiao to be the most ancient.)
I get my info from Emanuele Papa and @thewanderingwarrior623 -- the ruleset, uniform, and techniques of Shuaijiao are best explained by codevelopment with Manchu banner wrestling training, where Manchu wrestling was of course heavily influenced by Mongol bokh. There are undoubtedly native wrestling arts that are also rolled up into it, but those claiming Shuaijiao is a wholly indigenous (or even Han) development with a long history before Manchu contact are more likely doing some wishful cultural thinking.
@@mengmao5033 This does make sense. The more I dig into it, the more I find that claims that it's not Han is wrong; but claims that it's purely Han/indigenous are also incorrect, as the influence goes both ways. Different branches might have more or less foreign (or well, formerly foreign) influence, and vice versa. Similar to Chinese swordsmanship.
Practicing Kungfu in germany, my trainer slowly introduces shuai jiao into the curriculum. That's how I know of it. It provides useful insights into the forms and their practical ideas behind it. So far I've been practicing only ma bou push hand as a preparation for it. That being said, I'd really love to see more shuai jiao content :)
I trained Judo for a few years, and Bagua which has a lot of throws that come out of Shuai Jiao, and I think the major difference I found is that, because of the rule set and Gi in Judo, they tend to hop onto the balls of their feet and drive forward, which results a lot more in sacrifice throws, vs the Bagua/Shuai Jiao throws which tend to have a more even weighting on their feet, cause the priority is to remain standing. Judo is great, but I feel that Shuai Jiao is better for self defense, cause there's a lot more emphasis on remaining standing after the throw. I also feel that Judo tends to be more reliant on the Gi for grips... Kodokan Judo also has a different concept of off balancing... They call is "kuzushi", and the idea is to pull your opponent onto the balls of their feet, so their weight is forward, and you take advantage of that momentary off balance, where as Bagua, and a lot of Shuai Jiao, do not always use that kind of off balancing, but break the persons structure, so they are weak, and throw them in the direction that they're weak. The difference is, you can be off balanced, but still have good anatomical structure, where as you can feel balanced (have both feet on the ground and not feel like you're falling over), but have weak structure. The Gi helps a lot to make someone off balanced, but you have a strong point of connection, for it works well with fast techniques, but the problem is that you also have to be fast to take advantage as the opponent will feel immediately off balanced, and will immediately work to regain balance... if you use methods to break the structure, the opponent doesn't feel like they're vulnerable, so you have more time to set up your throws, and you're not playing a game of who can be the fastest to take advantage.
As a Baguazhang practitioner, studying and watching Shuai Jiao has pushed my understanding and knowledge of the Bagua light years ahead of where I was before. I knew Bagua was rooted in Shuai Jiao(at least my lineage is) but I didn’t realize just how much it made a difference in my understanding of applications and the forms
The mix was nice for something like shuai jiao with so little available in English! It's interesting to see the overlap with judo and how just a few rule and equipment tweaks can really change some of the strategies even while the core principles of throws are the same. Also fascinating to see how lacking sleeves but retaining grabbable clothes suddenly introduces a meaningful element of pommeling and maybe even trapping that people (not without reason) make fun of wing chun for being so hyperfocused on.
Seeing this makes me think the techniques of wing chun would mix with it so well. I think this combined with the techniques of wing chun, TKD, a little boxing, and some ground fighting and that could make a new breed of MMA.
Shuai Jiao techniques and influence are in practically every style of kung fu to some degree. In many forms you'll see sweeps and circular arm movements that aren't strikes at all, but rather throws when the forms are broken down to practice. We were taught in life threatening combat, to throw on their head, not the back like we did in practice. It's brutal stuff.
LOLz...bullsh1t. It isn't at all well known in China, and it's modern form is basically a sh1tty rip-off of Judo and Mongolian Bokh that didn't exist until the early 1920s when the Koushou Atheletics Institute sent an envoy to Japan to figure out why Japanese martial arts actually produced practitioners who could fight and Chinese Martial Arts didn't....then "coincidentally" Shuai Jiao mysteriously appeared after last being practiced in the 1600s with throws that hadn't been part of it's original curriculum, colored belts, thick cotton jackets, and practing bare foot on tatami.
Many years ago Judo throws rarely ended up with the thrower (tori) on the ground, unless he was going for a finish or made a mistake. We can thank the Olympics for the diminishing of ground work and the emphasis on the big throw for ipon.
Yes please, please translate those tutorial videos. It's been years since I watched those videos, yet I can only guess what they're saying. There are no Shuai Jiao gym in my place, therefore those videos translation would be very precious to me. Keep up the good work man!
I love seeing the crossovers between different martial arts. If you see a technique that’s in Shui jao, Judo, BJJ and wrestling you know it’s effective…
thank you for this video, really nice! There are several reasons why in Shuai Jiao the attacker remains standing unlike in judo: 1. You score less if you fall on top of the opponent. 2. A good throw doesn’t end the fight like in judo which in judo leads to the defender trying his best to defend the throw 3. No long sleeves so less grip by the defender who is less able to drag his attacker to the ground 4. As an attacker you can score using throws regardless of the contact area of your opponent's falls.
I can't speak to the competitions , but Shuai Chiao puts great emphasis on driving the opponent straight down into the ground instead of a more circular type motion . They would practice in sand and not do break falls because the arm would get injured. If you look up old pictures and footage you'll see what I mean. The idea was very much to use the ground to take your opponent out . Imagine being on hard packed dirt on a battlefield or stones and tiles on the grounds of a castle and one of these guys slams you down full force .
Yep. Shuai Jiao makes a lot of sense from that context. If you threw and ended up on the ground too, you broke formation. Have to stay in formation on the battlefield.
Chinese shuai jiao and taijiquan are essentially battlefield martial arts. On the battlefield you do not want to be on the ground, at all. You want to deal with your opponent and remain standing to move on to the next. You also want your techniques to work whether your opponent is armed and armored or not.
I love it. I just subscribed. You do an excellent job narrating and translating, and I love how you get way into it 😅 great videos, I look forward to watching them all in time. Also, yes, it would be amazing to watch more and have you translate. 👏🏼 👏🏼 thank you.
Unbeknownst to many people, that back step footwork is utilized in Judo quite a lot. You can't do a throw from far away, so Judoka, without even realizing it, do this footwork to get themselves closer so they can generate more rotation and gain momentum. It's interesting to see some overlap from this to Judo. Great videos as always!
Sambo has long sleeves and it's very similar to judo - it was derived partially from Judo. They don't go to the ground as much in part bc there is no ground fighting whereas in Judo, one can win through pins and submissions as well as a high amplitude throw. Shuai Jiao has no such ground fighting equivalent and thus there is no benefit to going to the ground. In judo, you can alter throws to simply send your opponent downwards without following them for self defense.
In a previous video you posted with Shuai Jiao and in the first tutorial (with the guy with the silver pants), they show short sequences from forms which always makes you comment "...it involves a lot of footwork..." The sequences remind me of dance-like forms one often sees in kung fu videos. It might be interesting to take a step back and revisit such videos that get easily dismissed (not saying all practitioners know what they are doing when performing the forms but it's clear they transmit knowledge that often seems lost).
Loving this format, hingdai. Also want to add a throwing art to me repertoire cuz I think it'd be one of the best bets FO DA STREETZ and shuai jiao seems like it could potentially be really useful, so more content like this would be appreciated.
This was super cool! Seems to me that Shuai Jiao doesn't get the attention and credit it deserves! The thing I like the most is that they try to stay up after the throwing.
Shuai Jiao in the US has a belt System, but in mainland China it does not. It's an awesome art. I have Black belt in Shuai Jiao for the US and also lived in Beijing for 12 years and trained it there with the legendary Master, Li Baru. Great stuff.
According to my dad （student of grandmaster Chang Dong Sheng/常東昇）, you lose if you post 1 hand and 1 knee on the ground( supposedly in a war, if you post a hand and knee on the ground , you’d be dead). Im pretty sure my dad knows what he’s talking about , since he won gold in shuai jiao at the national games of Taiwan back in 1964(台灣省運動會 民國53年 "摔跤" 金牌.)
I have taken Shuai Jiao since i was 10 years old & I am now 20, and have competed in multiple national tournaments from ages 15 to 20, the ideology is that you’re fighting on concrete or the battlefield, & that you don’t want to land with your opponent I on the ground as that would hurt you or his freinds could jump in, - shuai jiao was created over 2000 years ago in china for the military, there is striking of every sort incorporated in the traditional militant Shuai Jiao style which when added becomes “Sanda” - the rules go like this for “sport” shuai jiao - throw them over the head and don’t fall = 3 - throw them any other way and don’t fall = 2 - throw them and fall = 1 - knees touching the ground = loss in point - hand touching ground = loss in point - no sacrifice throws your body would hit the ground before your opponent and imagine that’s concrete, loss in point - there are 13 belts - white, half green, green, green blue, blue white stripe, blue, blue purple stripe, blue purple half n half, purple, purple white stripe, purple with black stripe, purple black, black - & black belt tests are a 3 day journey with full work days of being pushed to your limit - jackets are short sleeves allowing anatomy based grips as well as “gi” grips- one my favorite & most purely beautiful arts on this planet next to gracie jiu jitsu
Really interesting! I would very much like to see more of this. I do martial arts myself, but i've never heard of it. But you can see the effectiveness.
It depends. I've been to shuai chiao tournaments where they just count falls, and other tournaments use a 1-3 point scoring system. But yes, the reason it looks different than judo is in Chinese martial arts we are trained that if you end on the ground you're dead anyway (buddies, weapons, etc), so going to the ground to execute a throw doesn't make any sense. In shuai chiao, if any 4 points touch (for example, 2 knees, 2 feet) you lose the fall. So falling to your knees to execute a throw counts as a fall against you. Sacrifice throws are also generally a fall against you, for the same reason (if you're flat on your back at any point, you lose).
Many thanks. I'd be more interested in the translation of the tutorials but the mixed format is good too. I've seen a few of the tutorials and I can follow what they show, although it would be interesting to know what they are saying.
What they do well is entering low and elevation of the opponent. What they seem to ignore is grabbing, moving their opponents head as a control and entry for techniques. Head position and control is fundamental in wrestling . Interesting style though.
I don't think there's a belt system. You just have a red and a blue belt in each match (you bring both colors with you). For the convenience of the judges and audience I think. When I trained this the outside of my top finger joints were constantly skinless, from rubbing against the jackets. Is that the same in judo? Do your fingers eventually develop tougher skin or do you have antiseptic salves and tape forever? Loved this video.
Shuai Jiao is more like battlefield wrestling so if you throw you have to remain standing so that is reflected on the scoring and judging. You use the ground as a weapon to hurt the opponent while you are not tied up on the ground. You can't be rolling on the ground with one opponent on a battlefield with multiple opponents around. Punching an armored opponent is not so effective and risky. You try to punch his face you are liable to hit his helmet or armor and your hand is done. That is also one reason for a preference for open hand strikes in many styles of kung fu. In addition, the kung fu theory was that energy transference is better in open handed strikes compared to fists.
I don’t know what to call this in Chinese, because it seems that wrestling in general is also called 摔跤. Freestyle wrestling is often rendered 自由式摔跤, for example.
What's the rules around grip breaks? Because one major difference I see from Judo and BJJ are the lack of grip break attempts. Also the reason blue failed his throw at 3:21 is because although he had attempted a good kuzushi, his opponent's posture was still not broken. But by attempting the throw in the way he did (Blue) he broke his own posture and gave white more leverage. At least, that's what it looks like to me. I'm only a brown belt in Judo and I'm not that good XD
@@FightCommentary Coach He Guanda in Irvine, and Coach James Lin in Long Beach. Once I recover from my injuries, I intend to start going to one depending on the schedule.
I’m not an expert in this style but I’ve learned some of it as it is intertwined with Praying Mantis style and I’ve learned Judo too. Judo doesn’t do a big emphasis on stance training like Shuai Jiao as they’ll sacrifice their balance to do a throw whereas Shuai Jiao uses strong stances and footwork with those stances to complete a throw hence you won’t normally see them go down with the thrown person. For example, the Chinese version of the hip throw is performed with horse stance and bow stance so they’re still solidly balanced when they throw whereas Judo tends to throw with a basic standing position so the posture isn’t as strong as say a horse stance or bow stance. Throws are done similarly in Karate, they use firm stances when they take the person down (Karate is also based on Chinese Martial Arts). The methodology of throwing is different from Judo.
"Judo doesn’t do a big emphasis on stance training like Shuai Jiao as they’ll sacrifice their balance" ....LOLz..you don't know WTF you are talking about. We don't do "stance training" because we are smart enough to know that regularly working legs at the gym is a superior training methodology and you are conflating throwing an equally skilled opponent with so much force that you literally sumer-sault on top of them with poor balance....because you don't actually know any thing about Judo worth mentioning. Also..the "Chinese version" of these throws are hot trash, but by all means...keep throwing with the small of your back and leggs instead of your upper body and hips....then post a clip of how you injured your back.
Really cool that a lot of comments like the mixed format of reaction to matches and then analysis/translation of tutorial. If we could get three more channel members, I'll commit to doing something like this once a week. As you can tell by the views, this video isn't going to do well as the bullshido masters getting beat up stuff, but I think a sizable number of viewers want this, so let's get a few more viewers to join as channel members. Let me know if you join as a channel member!
Just subscribed. I like all your material including this.
It'll be cool if translated it
Hehe, I like you fashion statements 😃
I am subscribing for more like this. I have practiced Tibetan White Crane Kung Fu, and it is really great to see how the techniques in Shuai Jiao would fit into other Kung fu styles. When I get a chance to start practicing again, I hope to emphasise the grappling aspects of the art, and content like this would be really helpful.
6.09min that sweep kick is called "Shi Zi Tui" in Kung Fu forms. You can find it a lot. Imagine these shaolin monks doing a kick with a punch at the same time. Thats the same movement. The techniques in the forms are pasted together. Reason why kung fu sucks are the people who are noobs and do not understand which content is included in the forms....most "masters" are those noobs
This is great to see. Shuai Jiao was the first martial art I learned and it's funny how it carried over to everything else I did in the future. Would love to see more of the tutorials. It's a dying art form, and sharing more of it would be a great service to history.
Carried over how?
@@complexblackness the grapples and throws are very similar to ones found in judo, wrestling and other grappling arts... Only difference is the short sleeves on their uniforms which require you to aim for shoulder and upper arm grabs instead of forearm grabs like in judo
@@complexblackness SJ is also largely taught from the ground up. Everything started with footwork and the legs. Like when you learn to box they first teach you how to stand and how to move. You likely won’t even throw a punch your first week.
I would love to learn Shuai jiao. Unfortunately none in my area... heck if there was someone in my area who DOES know it & have certification, I'd try to start it up under Count recreation. Or a club
👋😲BRO, judo & jiu jitsu... ARE WUSHUKUNGFU! comes from Shuaijiao & Qinna... COMES FROM Kungfu.
Thanks for this. Judo is awesome, Sambo is awesome, Shuai Jiao is very under represented in the arts. Thank you for the positive exposure.
It is a great art. I was introduced to it through Yang Jwing Ming's Shuai Jiao curriculum that was taught as part of the Kung Fu option at the dojo I trained at as a child. Then while Wrestling and doing Judo I participated in several clinics and tournaments hosted by Matt Furey. Honestly this is why I never understood people complaints about Kung Fu, because Yang Jwing Ming's curriculum for White Crane & Taijichuan is heavy a stand-up wrestling art. I was already doing Judo & Goju Ryu before I was taught Kung Fu and everything, I learned complimented what I already knew. In fact Goju Ryu is a white crane derivative, & Kito Ryu the parent of Judo has a lineage to hand seizing/taking techniques (chin na fa) derived the southern chinese scholar monk Chin Genpin; so I already knew virtually the same curriculum that just evolved into distinct arts.
not everyone is as lucky as you to have access to all that
@เด็ก พเนจร living in NJ, which is the densest populated state in the USA, & living 30 minutes from NYC basically afforded me access every martial art. If you can think of something not illegal then you can find it in the megalopolis of the Mid-Atlantic States.
@@kevionrogers2605 you'd probably have access to the illegal stuff too if you knew where to look ;)
@@kevionrogers2605 Wasn't Yang Jwing Mings school in Jamaica Plain MA? Outside Boston. I used to live a block away and did BJJ with oe of his students. I also had a few of Matt Fureys books,
Okinawa Goju ryu contains around 5 basic shuai jiao throws in the katas.
I've got interested in Shuai Jiao recently, so you translating tutorials previously unavailable to the west is like a dream come true! ❤
Awesome! I will do more! Consider pressing the join button too!
Never heard of Shuai Jiao before but i love judo with or without a gi and i think this short sleeve version makes perfect sense to practice as well.
I've actually used this style for throws as a bouncer incidentally as grabbing sleeves and modifying a throw happens faily naturally in the moment as im sure many of you have experienced as well.
Makes me think it would be good to practice specifically on opponents with vests as well to focus on throws that revolve around the specific grab points and how you will place your fulcrum for the throw.
Amazing. As a BJJ practitioner, it’s always great to see “new” (aka ancient) upper body techniques. These throws are so intricate and powerful!
Awesome to see you open minded! I’m so sick and tired of how cultish BJJ has become. I just had to block a BJJ cultist today on Instagram because he was acting like such a stereotypical BJJ bro.
@@FightCommentary
You're tired of their nonsense as well huh?
I have a zero tolerance for them.
On the mat
Online
As long as the criteria for superior martial arts remains it's use by military and law enforcement
And
It's ability to deal with a 2v1 situation which has been the base of a self defense situation since before any of us was born.....
BJJ hasn't earned that ego.
Even the Brazilian military and law enforcement don't use BJJ to this day. Not in the 100 years since it's creation.
I know this firsthand straight from the mouths of soldiers in Brazil.
Those who know don't speak highly of BJJ or the Gracie's.
@@tonytomahawk5160 "As long as the criteria for superior martial arts remains it's use by military and law enforcement" Wouldn't be so sure of that myself; in the modern day some are either BS, incredibly toned down basic versions of what MMA guys can pull off, or just have really bad practitioners since the soldiers are focused on more relevant skills like shooting, surviving, and lugging heavy loads for ages. In particular, Russian Systema and Israeli Krav Maga seem to be small amounts of BS, large amounts of terrible practitioners. Chinese Sanda seems legit though, as does whatever the heck some of their local cops are practicing. Half the stuff from American cops looks bad, but their military stuff looks alright.
@@DarkwarriorJ
Your opinion is irrelevant because what I stated was based on standards that were in place before either of us were born and remained for a reason.
It was those same standards that caused BJJ to fail when the Brazilian military ran it through the paces.
Also hand to hand combat in warzones aren't one vs one. The enemy doesn't stand there and wait for you to engage with the first attacker.
MMA is a one vs one situation and that will never equate to hand to hand combat proficiency. MMA guys who are very good in the ring get picked apart in the streets by drunk frat boys.
I've seen this with my own eyes at the bar multiple times.
Sad this common sense needs to even be explained.
this is legendary brother the little underhook he did in the instructional creating leverage from the elbow blew my mind. great way for off balancing and leverage without a gi
The mix was nice
While it's true that Shuai Jiao has a long history of attestation,
it's also evolved just like other arts, especially under influence from Mongol and Manchu takedown wrestling styles.
Also, several Chinese martial arts systems (e.g. Long Fist, Taiji etc) have a focus on takedowns, so they can also be considered branches of Shuai Jiao too (if we consider "pure" Shuai Jiao to be the most ancient.)
I get my info from Emanuele Papa and @thewanderingwarrior623 -- the ruleset, uniform, and techniques of Shuaijiao are best explained by codevelopment with Manchu banner wrestling training, where Manchu wrestling was of course heavily influenced by Mongol bokh.
There are undoubtedly native wrestling arts that are also rolled up into it, but those claiming Shuaijiao is a wholly indigenous (or even Han) development with a long history before Manchu contact are more likely doing some wishful cultural thinking.
@@mengmao5033 This does make sense. The more I dig into it, the more I find that claims that it's not Han is wrong; but claims that it's purely Han/indigenous are also incorrect, as the influence goes both ways. Different branches might have more or less foreign (or well, formerly foreign) influence, and vice versa. Similar to Chinese swordsmanship.
Practicing Kungfu in germany, my trainer slowly introduces shuai jiao into the curriculum. That's how I know of it. It provides useful insights into the forms and their practical ideas behind it.
So far I've been practicing only ma bou push hand as a preparation for it.
That being said, I'd really love to see more shuai jiao content :)
Mach ich auch so in meinem Training! Wo trainierst du?
@@Livingtree32 wushu taichi akademie Konstanz, bei Pascal Wu :)
Wo bist Du?
I trained Judo for a few years, and Bagua which has a lot of throws that come out of Shuai Jiao, and I think the major difference I found is that, because of the rule set and Gi in Judo, they tend to hop onto the balls of their feet and drive forward, which results a lot more in sacrifice throws, vs the Bagua/Shuai Jiao throws which tend to have a more even weighting on their feet, cause the priority is to remain standing. Judo is great, but I feel that Shuai Jiao is better for self defense, cause there's a lot more emphasis on remaining standing after the throw. I also feel that Judo tends to be more reliant on the Gi for grips... Kodokan Judo also has a different concept of off balancing... They call is "kuzushi", and the idea is to pull your opponent onto the balls of their feet, so their weight is forward, and you take advantage of that momentary off balance, where as Bagua, and a lot of Shuai Jiao, do not always use that kind of off balancing, but break the persons structure, so they are weak, and throw them in the direction that they're weak. The difference is, you can be off balanced, but still have good anatomical structure, where as you can feel balanced (have both feet on the ground and not feel like you're falling over), but have weak structure. The Gi helps a lot to make someone off balanced, but you have a strong point of connection, for it works well with fast techniques, but the problem is that you also have to be fast to take advantage as the opponent will feel immediately off balanced, and will immediately work to regain balance... if you use methods to break the structure, the opponent doesn't feel like they're vulnerable, so you have more time to set up your throws, and you're not playing a game of who can be the fastest to take advantage.
As a Baguazhang practitioner, studying and watching Shuai Jiao has pushed my understanding and knowledge of the Bagua light years ahead of where I was before. I knew Bagua was rooted in Shuai Jiao(at least my lineage is) but I didn’t realize just how much it made a difference in my understanding of applications and the forms
It's interesting that the oldest form of kung fu is one of the most practical.
The others are practical as well, probably more practical than this one. Their training methods and teachers are the things that screws them up
The mix was nice for something like shuai jiao with so little available in English!
It's interesting to see the overlap with judo and how just a few rule and equipment tweaks can really change some of the strategies even while the core principles of throws are the same. Also fascinating to see how lacking sleeves but retaining grabbable clothes suddenly introduces a meaningful element of pommeling and maybe even trapping that people (not without reason) make fun of wing chun for being so hyperfocused on.
Seeing this makes me think the techniques of wing chun would mix with it so well. I think this combined with the techniques of wing chun, TKD, a little boxing, and some ground fighting and that could make a new breed of MMA.
Shuai Jiao techniques and influence are in practically every style of kung fu to some degree. In many forms you'll see sweeps and circular arm movements that aren't strikes at all, but rather throws when the forms are broken down to practice.
We were taught in life threatening combat, to throw on their head, not the back like we did in practice. It's brutal stuff.
LOLz...bullsh1t. It isn't at all well known in China, and it's modern form is basically a sh1tty rip-off of Judo and Mongolian Bokh that didn't exist until the early 1920s when the Koushou Atheletics Institute sent an envoy to Japan to figure out why Japanese martial arts actually produced practitioners who could fight and Chinese Martial Arts didn't....then "coincidentally" Shuai Jiao mysteriously appeared after last being practiced in the 1600s with throws that hadn't been part of it's original curriculum, colored belts, thick cotton jackets, and practing bare foot on tatami.
Yes indeed
I LOVE this type of exploration! Especially for Shuai Jiao!!! Please do more translations of Shuai Jiao videos! You've got yourself a sub!
Many years ago Judo throws rarely ended up with the thrower (tori) on the ground, unless he was going for a finish or made a mistake. We can thank the Olympics for the diminishing of ground work and the emphasis on the big throw for ipon.
That’s so Interesting!!
Yes please, please translate those tutorial videos. It's been years since I watched those videos, yet I can only guess what they're saying. There are no Shuai Jiao gym in my place, therefore those videos translation would be very precious to me. Keep up the good work man!
Please consider joining as a channel member too 😎
When that instructor is showing those movements, you can really see how similar it looks to the form movements from other kung-fu disciplines.
Your Mandarin pronunciation is pretty good! Much props!
I love seeing the crossovers between different martial arts. If you see a technique that’s in Shui jao, Judo, BJJ and wrestling you know it’s effective…
thank you for this video, really nice!
There are several reasons why in Shuai Jiao the attacker remains standing unlike in judo:
1. You score less if you fall on top of the opponent.
2. A good throw doesn’t end the fight like in judo which in judo leads to the defender trying his best to defend the throw
3. No long sleeves so less grip by the defender who is less able to drag his attacker to the ground
4. As an attacker you can score using throws regardless of the contact area of your opponent's falls.
This was just as cool as breaking down a match. Thanks Jerry.
One of the missing links to making Kung Fu work
I can't speak to the competitions , but Shuai Chiao puts great emphasis on driving the opponent straight down into the ground instead of a more circular type motion . They would practice in sand and not do break falls because the arm would get injured. If you look up old pictures and footage you'll see what I mean. The idea was very much to use the ground to take your opponent out . Imagine being on hard packed dirt on a battlefield or stones and tiles on the grounds of a castle and one of these guys slams you down full force .
Yep. Shuai Jiao makes a lot of sense from that context. If you threw and ended up on the ground too, you broke formation. Have to stay in formation on the battlefield.
My instructor wouldn't consider it a clean technique if we fell or landed on top. We also would add joint locks and slaps to the head. It was awesome.
The mixing was a good idea. Helps make people understand the techniques highlighted in the first part.
Great video! Thanks. Yes please, do more videos on this amazing art. The translations would be so valuable!
I have watched those shia jiao videos. Many times. I would be so grateful if you'd translate them
Did I manifest this video? Recently I've been researching shuaijiao and also looking for wrestling classes in my area and now you put out this video.
Become a channel member and I will do many more translations!
Chinese shuai jiao and taijiquan are essentially battlefield martial arts. On the battlefield you do not want to be on the ground, at all. You want to deal with your opponent and remain standing to move on to the next. You also want your techniques to work whether your opponent is armed and armored or not.
Translation mix of both, great
Thank you for sharing this with us!
I love it. I just subscribed. You do an excellent job narrating and translating, and I love how you get way into it 😅 great videos, I look forward to watching them all in time. Also, yes, it would be amazing to watch more and have you translate. 👏🏼 👏🏼 thank you.
Welcome aboard!
Unbeknownst to many people, that back step footwork is utilized in Judo quite a lot.
You can't do a throw from far away, so Judoka, without even realizing it, do this footwork to get themselves closer so they can generate more rotation and gain momentum.
It's interesting to see some overlap from this to Judo.
Great videos as always!
This is really cool stuff, I've never seen this sport at all.
I like this mixed format!
Love the episode. Exactly what I like to see.
I liked the mix of commentary and instruction.
Sambo has long sleeves and it's very similar to judo - it was derived partially from Judo.
They don't go to the ground as much in part bc there is no ground fighting whereas in Judo, one can win through pins and submissions as well as a high amplitude throw.
Shuai Jiao has no such ground fighting equivalent and thus there is no benefit to going to the ground.
In judo, you can alter throws to simply send your opponent downwards without following them for self defense.
In a previous video you posted with Shuai Jiao and in the first tutorial (with the guy with the silver pants), they show short sequences from forms which always makes you comment "...it involves a lot of footwork..."
The sequences remind me of dance-like forms one often sees in kung fu videos. It might be interesting to take a step back and revisit such videos that get easily dismissed (not saying all practitioners know what they are doing when performing the forms but it's clear they transmit knowledge that often seems lost).
Mix it up, both are entertaining and educational …
Definitely do the mix up!!! We need the translations bro.
I've done a little shuai chiao, mainly to help with my judo. Amazing art. I have seven friends who have been training it for years.
Loving this format, hingdai. Also want to add a throwing art to me repertoire cuz I think it'd be one of the best bets FO DA STREETZ and shuai jiao seems like it could potentially be really useful, so more content like this would be appreciated.
This was super cool! Seems to me that Shuai Jiao doesn't get the attention and credit it deserves! The thing I like the most is that they try to stay up after the throwing.
One of your best.
I love this ! This should be the premier Chinese martial art
I hope we can all bring this renaissance. Shuai jiao is beautiful!
Can we all show some appreciation for the old man's wardrobe selection of shiny silver pants.
This is great. More please!
Very cool video, beautiful throws.
Shuai Jiao Is my first martial art, I absolutely love it❤❤❤
Got any footage for us?
@@FightCommentary Unfortunately that was long ago, I didn’t have any device to film my footages then😢
Shuai Jiao in the US has a belt System, but in mainland China it does not. It's an awesome art. I have Black belt in Shuai Jiao for the US and also lived in Beijing for 12 years and trained it there with the legendary Master, Li Baru. Great stuff.
Li Baoru is a living legend.
According to my dad （student of grandmaster Chang Dong Sheng/常東昇）, you lose if you post 1 hand and 1 knee on the ground( supposedly in a war, if you post a hand and knee on the ground , you’d be dead). Im pretty sure my dad knows what he’s talking about , since he won gold in shuai jiao at the national games of Taiwan back in 1964(台灣省運動會 民國53年 "摔跤" 金牌.)
Good stuff. That was a great tutorial
Great channel
I have taken Shuai Jiao since i was 10 years old & I am now 20, and have competed in multiple national tournaments from ages 15 to 20, the ideology is that you’re fighting on concrete or the battlefield, & that you don’t want to land with your opponent I on the ground as that would hurt you or his freinds could jump in, - shuai jiao was created over 2000 years ago in china for the military, there is striking of every sort incorporated in the traditional militant Shuai Jiao style which when added becomes “Sanda” - the rules go like this for “sport” shuai jiao - throw them over the head and don’t fall = 3 - throw them any other way and don’t fall = 2 - throw them and fall = 1 - knees touching the ground = loss in point - hand touching ground = loss in point - no sacrifice throws your body would hit the ground before your opponent and imagine that’s concrete, loss in point - there are 13 belts - white, half green, green, green blue, blue white stripe, blue, blue purple stripe, blue purple half n half, purple, purple white stripe, purple with black stripe, purple black, black - & black belt tests are a 3 day journey with full work days of being pushed to your limit - jackets are short sleeves allowing anatomy based grips as well as “gi” grips- one my favorite & most purely beautiful arts on this planet next to gracie jiu jitsu
please translate more tutorials, id love to see them
great stuff 👍👍👍👍 this direction with translations is great 100 % very interesting 👍👍👍 thanks 🙂
Really interesting! I would very much like to see more of this. I do martial arts myself, but i've never heard of it. But you can see the effectiveness.
Dude this was fantastic
The beautiful part is that a lot of these throws are in Tai Ji and other traditional styles but people don't understand the form.
Nice video dude, I like this kind of videos.
It depends. I've been to shuai chiao tournaments where they just count falls, and other tournaments use a 1-3 point scoring system. But yes, the reason it looks different than judo is in Chinese martial arts we are trained that if you end on the ground you're dead anyway (buddies, weapons, etc), so going to the ground to execute a throw doesn't make any sense. In shuai chiao, if any 4 points touch (for example, 2 knees, 2 feet) you lose the fall. So falling to your knees to execute a throw counts as a fall against you. Sacrifice throws are also generally a fall against you, for the same reason (if you're flat on your back at any point, you lose).
Many thanks.
I'd be more interested in the translation of the tutorials but the mixed format is good too.
I've seen a few of the tutorials and I can follow what they show, although it would be interesting to know what they are saying.
What they do well is entering low and elevation of the opponent.
What they seem to ignore is grabbing, moving their opponents head as a control and entry for techniques.
Head position and control is fundamental in wrestling .
Interesting style though.
Great compilation! There will be a Shuaijiao competition in Ohio soon
You attending?
@@FightCommentary I can't. It was just announced. They also have tournaments in San Jose, CA
very cool more please!
Great stuff man. More of this.... MIX
This was super interesting! I would love to train in this.
Yes, more please.
I need to learn some Shuai Jiao.
i liked the mixed up ep . i mean the content was related! it not like you switched to a different style.
Sanda has this martial art in it's arsenal
Translations would be amazing!
I don't think there's a belt system. You just have a red and a blue belt in each match (you bring both colors with you). For the convenience of the judges and audience I think.
When I trained this the outside of my top finger joints were constantly skinless, from rubbing against the jackets. Is that the same in judo? Do your fingers eventually develop tougher skin or do you have antiseptic salves and tape forever?
Loved this video.
This was great!
I would like you to translate all different sorts of fight videos new or old. :)
Consider joining as a channel member! Thanks for your support!
I love trips (foot trips ? I don't how to call it in english). They're the big brothers weapons to assert dominance over their little bro 😂
I like this art.
I like while they are throwing they make sure that they prevent that the opponent land on his head or on his neck
Thank you!
Chinese Judo👍🏾
Excellent!
Shuai Jiao is more like battlefield wrestling so if you throw you have to remain standing so that is reflected on the scoring and judging. You use the ground as a weapon to hurt the opponent while you are not tied up on the ground. You can't be rolling on the ground with one opponent on a battlefield with multiple opponents around.
Punching an armored opponent is not so effective and risky. You try to punch his face you are liable to hit his helmet or armor and your hand is done. That is also one reason for a preference for open hand strikes in many styles of kung fu. In addition, the kung fu theory was that energy transference is better in open handed strikes compared to fists.
Most contemporary Chinese Shuai Jiao is descended from Manchurian Bukhe wrestling which in turn is related to Mongolian Bokh wrestling.
1:27 nice throw, tai-otoshi in judo I think
Thanks!
Thank you for watching! Do you train shuai jiao?
@@FightCommentary I do not. But I'm thankful that you exposed me to it.
Wow, this is interesting :)
Sambo as well as Jiu Jitsu acknowledge Shuai Jiao as their ancestor , as well as some form of Taekwondo, early Taekwondo from 1940ies
I don’t know what to call this in Chinese, because it seems that wrestling in general is also called 摔跤. Freestyle wrestling is often rendered 自由式摔跤, for example.
What's the rules around grip breaks? Because one major difference I see from Judo and BJJ are the lack of grip break attempts. Also the reason blue failed his throw at 3:21 is because although he had attempted a good kuzushi, his opponent's posture was still not broken. But by attempting the throw in the way he did (Blue) he broke his own posture and gave white more leverage. At least, that's what it looks like to me. I'm only a brown belt in Judo and I'm not that good XD
Jerry, if you're interested I know a couple Shuai Jiao coaches here in LA
That’s amazing!
Send them over!
@@FightCommentary Coach He Guanda in Irvine, and Coach James Lin in Long Beach. Once I recover from my injuries, I intend to start going to one depending on the schedule.
Cool. I'll see if they're online.
You should see Ramsey Dewey video on Shuai Jiao
ooooo i like this art
I’m not an expert in this style but I’ve learned some of it as it is intertwined with Praying Mantis style and I’ve learned Judo too. Judo doesn’t do a big emphasis on stance training like Shuai Jiao as they’ll sacrifice their balance to do a throw whereas Shuai Jiao uses strong stances and footwork with those stances to complete a throw hence you won’t normally see them go down with the thrown person. For example, the Chinese version of the hip throw is performed with horse stance and bow stance so they’re still solidly balanced when they throw whereas Judo tends to throw with a basic standing position so the posture isn’t as strong as say a horse stance or bow stance. Throws are done similarly in Karate, they use firm stances when they take the person down (Karate is also based on Chinese Martial Arts). The methodology of throwing is different from Judo.
Karate is based on Filipino martial arts, it's from Okinawa.
"Judo doesn’t do a big emphasis on stance training like Shuai Jiao as they’ll sacrifice their balance" ....LOLz..you don't know WTF you are talking about. We don't do "stance training" because we are smart enough to know that regularly working legs at the gym is a superior training methodology and you are conflating throwing an equally skilled opponent with so much force that you literally sumer-sault on top of them with poor balance....because you don't actually know any thing about Judo worth mentioning. Also..the "Chinese version" of these throws are hot trash, but by all means...keep throwing with the small of your back and leggs instead of your upper body and hips....then post a clip of how you injured your back.
Yes please, translate anything Chinese, especially bagua, xingyi , shuai quiao.
Amazing man Chinese Judo 🥋🤘🇨🇳 but this is way harder because of the short sleeves 😮
Just when I thought that traditional Chinese MA were too esoteric, BAM! Shuai Jiao!