Is this how Aikido ACTUALLY WORKS? Using Shuai Jiao to explain Aikido
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- Опубликовано: 21 июл 2024
- I was watching a Shuai Jiao tutorial on a technique that looked like a more complicated (and functional) version of Kotegaeshi. Inspired by this Shuai Jiao Chinese Wrestling tutorial, I decided to dive deep into Shuai Jiao and also interpretations of Aikido. Let us know what you think. Have you ever played with this Tan Ningzi move in Shuai Jiao? Have you ever tried to use Kotegaeshi in a pressure tested context? Have you ever tested how to connect to someone's center? These are all amazing questions to ask in your martial arts journey.
The video(s) we critiqued:
• Beijing Style Shuaijia...
Timecodes:
0:00 Move initial examination
0:19 Our goal for for video
0:30 Footwork
0:37 Difficulty
1:14 Move in-depth
2:19 Higher finish version of move
2:51 Correcting student mistake
3:39 Analysis
4:38 Paradigm to practice aikido?
5:07 Final thoughts (Rokas cameo)
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Yup! Indeed, aikido principles do work.
I tend to apply what I've been learning in my 20 years of aikido (and still going on), implementing the tai sabaki (footwork) in my judo (brown belt) and my BJJ (blue belt), in BJJ I probably use it more since it allows wristlocks. This kotegaeshi is something I've applied in live sparring and man... so smooth, works perfectly!
Although this specific way to apply it, is more related to daito-ryu aikijujutsu. If you take a look at the "ikkajo" group of techniques (the most basic technical programme) of daito-ryu, you'll find idori ryote dori kotegaeshi, and... you'll see the same way to apply it!
Nice approach the one in this video, I definitely must try it in a live sparring!
This.
Thanks for the lead!
@@FightCommentary always happy to help my friend! 🤙🏻
@@AikidoScholar I'll pin your comment for a little bit. There was another good one that I'll pin later.
@@FightCommentary always happy to help brother. By the way, tried this shuai jiao wristlock+takedown and man, people need to try it in their sparrings. 👌🏻
Man, the more shuai jiao gets brought into the spotlight, the more I want to start training in it 😅
It's basically Chinese wrestling, and we all know how wrestling effective in combat
I'm aware lol
Same here, I wish this and Sanda were more popular outside of China
@@mr.q337 yes, in addition to qin na, that's the beauty of Kung Fu. Probably if you mix this techniques with some form of kickboxing (I'll not say sanda cause most people don't have access, so can be kickboxing, Muay Thai, etc), it could be a marvelous defense system.
Somebody's gotta make a animated GIF of that footwork. Out of context that'd be hilarious.
So true!
@Karl with a K If you do, please send it our way!
Reminds me of Arie Spears dancing like Bobby Brown!
@@GordiansKnotHere Thats funny
Any "Kotegaeshi" takes tme to learn properly, but once you know it, it is extremely useful and not hard to sneak it and use it, very high reward technique
Was just wondering if you’d seen this 😂
Actually kote gaeshi is the only technique in my whole Aikido repertoire that I can pull off against fully resisting opponent during hard BJJ sparring.
@@indefenceofthetraditionalma 🤣
@@adamturowski3765 there's more techniques that can be done but with heavy modification, check out old trad ju jitsu versions of these technques, I garantee you will find success with things like kaiten nage, ude hineri, kote mawashi, ude garame and some others
This is interesting, it's really cool knowing that this martial art has other type of techniques that seem aikido like.
Cool seeing it elswhere right? This same movement exists in literally every martial art that deals with grappling
He is called Li, Baoru, very well known coach and yes he's difficult to understand. Thanks for the translation. Li probably has either made this technique work in a live shuai jiao match or his students have.
If you have any more footage of his you find, please send it out way!
As a 10-year aikido practitioner: yes, kotegaeshi is a fundamental technique, but there's a lot of ways to screw it up, especially in a real world context. It's typically taught early so you have plenty of time to work on improving it. The typical flashy way you see it done during exhibitions has a gaping hole that's ripe for a reversal (if you know about the reversal and the timing for it), and that reversal is not the fancy one where you do a cartwheel through the throw. Unfortunately, some dojos only teach the flashy version of the throw.
Have you ever applied it in real life? If so what was the move and if not what do you think are the moves with highest percentage of success? I have a feeling that kotegaeshi would probably be one of the core moves that could go on that list
Could you explain or send a video of that reversal ?
And its what has hurt ACTUAL Aikijutsu/Aikido.
It’s kotegaeshi like, but the grip they’re using here is indeed harder to finish from. Imagine chopping carrots with a normal grip vs holding the knife like a pencil…(weird analogy sure but I stand by it)
Cool! Thanks for the clarification! I’ll pin you!
In my Aikido, we called this technique grip gyaku kote, the reverse of kotegaeshi.
As stated before me, it is a reverse version of kotegaeshi. Historically, Aikido is a watered down version of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, which was sword based art. Kotegaeshi's footwork is based on swordfighting footwork and the throw was supposed to be performed with an atemi or strike simultaneously. So an atemi can be a fist, a slap, or a kick, but most modern aikido schools no longer incorporate the atemi during the throw itself hence the difference in application.
Great video bro. This is a good breakdown of biomechanics on leverage for sure.
Glad you enjoyed it
Kotegaeshi is probably the most underrated technique of all time
I am an Aikido practitioner from france. My teacher taught me the other day that the wrist lock part of kote-gaeshi wasn't the most important part of the technique. The real key of the technique is to turn the uke's hips to one side and then apply the pressure to the other direction. If it is done correctly you can do it without even twisting the wrist. So, everything comes from the first unbalancing, as in this Shuai Jiao video, although it is true that in Aikido there is only one point of connection, so it is more difficult to get to that. Also, footwork is a VERY important part of Aikido. You never throw using your arms, but move all your body from the hips. Also, all Aikido techniques are taught in a very simple way at the beginning (kote gaeshi at the beginning is just the armlock, twisting the wrist), but as you get more advanced you add more and more layers of details, and your understanding of what really makes the technique changes completely. But, in order to grasp that, you need to really try to understand things, and never take something for granted. The teacher will never deliver all the information in one take, and even if he did that, you need to learn step by step. That's why Aikido is very long to learn, and even longer to be effective, but it really develops muscle memory and reflexes that are useful even if you haven't "mastered" the art. But, I agree when you say that it needs to be learnt after having a background in another martial art (most Aikido pioneers were experts in other arts), although, Aikido is is so intricate that learning it can help learning other arts faster.
Cool! Thanks for sharing!
These videos are only getting better 👏👏👏
This is actually really interesting, have you looked up Dan the Wolfman on here? He has some really interesting insights on Aikido and he said something very similar about learning Judo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu then learning Aikido I can't remember all the details but it was an interesting video and he has pulled off Aikido moves in MMA fights he's a very interesting person
He's very fascinating figure haha, but his understanding of combat is simply supreme, and his "aiki" stuff is insanely good
@@martialgeeks it really is, I hope his channel gets a lot bigger he really is the real deal
MOAR Shuai Jiao!! Loving these videos, my man.
My thoughts on Kotegaishi and other, "beginner" techniques:
Just because they teach a technique in the beginning of your training, does not mean that it is an easy technique. It is most likely a foundational technique, that you will perfect for the rest of your career. Finding deeper and deeper layers of complexity and insights along the way.
If you understand basic grappling along with the basic aikido techniques . It will be easier to do. But the main thing is knowing how to break there posture In order to do the techniques.
Another nice Aikido is the Dynamic Aikido interpretation. I have seen this master on Kuro Obi World that seems to have a nice approach to it. Incorporating dynamic movement and strikes in order to better explain the aikido concepts. Presented as "Long Range Judo" ,knowledge of this,Sumo and Shuai Jiao are bound to make a wrestler/grappler with a lot of skill on staying on your feet.
Will take a look. Got any links?
@@FightCommentary ruclips.net/video/9doZR0wKFBg/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/Ua6UoiKT1Ec/видео.html
This approach reminds of a comment praising the aikidoka being able to jump and fall in any way in order to fake the throws,and that made me think that could be a practical and peculiar skill to train.
Also,this pairs well with Taido movement and physical development approach.
It reminds me of a thing i read about african warriors, that carried no shield in battle but instead used specific steps ,twist and jumps to avoid attacks,like an hypotetical "shield"
This was connected to the practice of Ngolo it seems.
Kuro Obi world has a full playlist of it,comparing it to Taido and Karate.
They also have a Kung Fu master and JKD teacher,whose approach i find very interesting.
On the Kung Fu side,have you ever looked at Fanziquan and Pak Mei?
@@junichiroyamashita That Kuro Obi world, we actually follow each other on Twitter, but I've not been able to establish contact with the channel yet. That would be amazing if you could help! Do you have a way of messaging them? I've been watching them for years!
@@FightCommentary Ay,i wish,i simply watch them. I can try ,but i am not actually japanese.
A channel i believe you would find interesting is Inside Fighting,he has very illuminating insights.
I think Martial art journey will be really happy
Great analysis and explanation. As a changquan practioner, I love watching Shuai Jiao done well.
Spot on bruh with everything! In addition, 3 points of contact is a good standard principle for any takedown, throw, or sweep.
Kotegaeshi is definitely a "basic" aikido move, one of the first things I learned when I used to do it
It's one of the most underrated techniques of all time
@@martialgeeks all time...all time...all time....all time....
@@MMZS528 🤣🤣🤣
Chadi discussed alot about shuai jiao vs judo vs aikido for past several months. His vdos can be good reference
I need to reach out to Chadi asap. He and Stefan Kesting are on the top of my list.
Supreme breakdown and discussion.
Glad you enjoyed! I'm going to do more like this soon!
This stuff looks as if right out of an aikido demo, very cool.
Your conclusion is exactly mine as soon as I saw the technique. It has the same principle but relies in adittional points of contact, which makes it more complex than kotegaeshi but also look at how you make the oponent flip, that must be very damaging on a hard ground.
Apparently the original students of Aikido (and Ueshiba himself) were all already black belts in Judo, Jujitsu, Karate etc, which makes sense when you look at Aikido as kind of a philosophical art as well as a martial art. If you already know how to strike, how to avoid strikes, how to throw and be thrown in a resisting, violent way, it is probably good for the soul to focus on making your martial techniques more refined and "gentle". However, those Aikido techniques also really require years of experience to not fail spectacularly, as we see when people who have only trained Aikido try to spar and completely fail to avoid strikes, apply their throws and joint locks etc
The gentleman is Li Bao-ru 李寶如, Chinese champion in late 1950's and early 1960's, and coach for Beijing Team for many years. He and his students codified Sanda 散打 in early 1980's.
Shuaijiao is well documented. Aikido, in particular what Takeda claimed, has dubious history. There still exists many styles of Shuaijiao which can be categorized into 3 different lineages. The styles in Southern North China and SW China aims to pin opponent on tge ground and hence has ground techniques. The style in Shanxi is no jacket standing grappling similar to Sumo. Shuaijiao in Beijing, Tianjin, Baoding and Inner Mongolia (Buku, Bök) are strictly standings. Mongolia Republic Bök allows hands touching ground.
Beautiful! Loved it. Thank you man
Thanks for watching!
Yeah, that is a version of kotegaeshi. It is even taught at the basic level as a variant for ryotetori. I have also used foot sweeps or trips when applying techniques in real life (I worked in a hospital with emergency department with mental patients, substance abusers, and criminal brought by police prior to jail, I used martial arts a LOT), but that was when I was not able to move correctly or catch my opponent's momentum and had to add my own.
I look at foot sweeps and trips as a way to short cut a technique or give myself some added leverage or rotation if I am not perfect due to bad positioning, lack of momentum, slippery footing, etc.
Really interesting stuff. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it
Hi Jerry, so yes, you are right, this is very similar to Kotegaeshi. In terms of how it's usually learnt is from a cross hand grab (kosadori / ai hanmi) as opposed to mirrored grab (katatedori / gyaku hanmi). This version - Ai hanmi, were the grab is on the outside is far more difficult and rarely practiced because of the positioning and having to rotate on the inside if that makes sense?
Shuai Jiao can help contextualise some aikido techniques, however from my research the nearest applied martial art for body techniques and principles to Aikido is actually catch wrestling. They have many techniques that are the same but not just that, the principles for some of the throws are pretty much the same, which I've not seen in some other martial arts. If you get the chance you should check it out and do some comparison videos. Happy to help if you want to get in touch.
Very interesting! Please send some clips my way! If it's RUclips clips, feel free to reply here, if it's other clips, please send via Email, IG, or FB. Thanks for giving me all these cool Japanese terms to look up!
@@FightCommentary Just emailed you.
Very astute observation and great video
Thank you kindly
This probably explains the different grip here too...he can't get enough wrist rotation with it to throw him with that grip, but it doesn't matter if you can get enough kuzushi to initiate your trip. When I would free spar a lot in my 20s I'd try to go for aikido techniques when the opportunity presented itself, one of those frequently being kote gaeshi. I always found that, even when I locked it in really well and went hard on it, if my opponent was really trying to fight back and not playing along, the best I got was just bending them over with the pressure on the wrist. They didn't ukemi (obviously), nor did they just fall down. From there they could, somewhat ineffectively, wail on me with the free hand. I had to add a little tai otoshi trip to it to get them to the mat. Still a low percentage technique, but it does sort of vibe with what I'm seeing here.
Thanks for adding your input. Love it!
Kotegashi had been shown in the John Wich movies. Usually I say the techniques would be great against less capable individuals. But certain moves can work great in certain situations especially in grappling. I need to look up a wrestler I saw who used Aikido pins to try and draw people in or away from him.
When you say that to practice Aikido you should learn shuai jiao or judo first, reminds me of a book i read about Aikido that mentioned in the early days of Aikido when the founder was still teaching, he wouldn't teach anyone unless they already had years of practicing a different martial art
Jerry you are 100% correct, 3 points of contact are required to complete a throw. Leg work is the red headed step child of Aikido, it’s often necessary, but just as often poo pooed as low level. In reality leg work makes it practical and functional.
The higher level application uses the wrist lock as a method of taking the balance and the leg as a way of completing the throw (if a throw is the goal). It often fails as you point out.
Good to hear from you! How have you been?
@@FightCommentary I’ve been well! The dojo is thriving, we came back stronger than ever after the quarantine. I’ve been focused on kuzushi and getting the students to have some familiarity with pressure testing, I use competitive push hands.
I love that people who've never tried any of these locks will call them BS and yet praise wrestling wrist snaps and tie snaps...which all are the same techniques lol
Can we just appreciate for a moment how the students and instructor are basically in street clothes plus the jacket. There’s a pragmatism in classic CMA that you don’t find in other martial arts. A mat is for convenience and to provide a falling surface. But they’d probably happily be training on the lawn or in the park if they didn’t have it. Shoes are just the shoes you’d wear. Pants are just pants. Not a lot of standing on ceremony or uniforms. When I was a kid we’d sometimes wear a jacket but a lot of times we’d just wear a t-shirt and work around it
Where I studied Aikido for 22 years, that version of kote gaeshi that twists the wrist would be an advanced technique, because of its injury risk. Sometimes referred to as "reverse kote gaeshi" even though we know that's redundant.
Your standard kote gaeshi is pressing the knuckles down into the palm, going with the natural bend of the wrist, making sure NOT to twist.
another random interesting thing about aikido. If you watch footage of japanese police arrests, you can sometimes see how aikido works out in real life. sometimes they fail, but sometimes you see some pretty cool stuff.
also, im currently looking for some old articles for you about original aikido students accounts of the pre war art, including a couple professional boxers who became very prominent aikidoka. if i can find them ill link it here.
as a side note, im not an aikidoka, but i use some of their principles, and I find the history and unique nicheness of Aikido as far as martial arts go, quite interesting.
Don’t link it here. Send me on IG. RUclips doesn’t like outbound links to potentially sketch sites.
kotae-gaeshi refers to the lock only, not a kata/waza. If uke is too ignorant to roll the wrist is broken, provided you apply once the balance is broken. The roll is the escape/counter (there's a kick hidden in the roll). To spoil the roll, add a twist midflight to attack the radius/ulna
u can control one point if you direct it correctly....in kotegaishi, the hand manipulation is for off balance and also execution...if you point the hand to the back of uke...you can take them down...in shuai jiao the uke are falling to the side or front, that is why you need to sweep their leg....
It's funny, because Rokas recently found he could hit his kotegaeshi way easier if he combined it with leg attacks as to distract his opponent. He got that after examining the technique with an extremely experienced Kudo athlete, yet this old man right here has been teaching it in that way all along.
Oh! I see! I haven't looked at the kudo videos yet, but I will soon!
I Havent finished the video yet, but to your first highlight about this move being a difficult one in Shuai Jiao, but a basic in Aikido.
That move *is* considered a basic in Aikido, but Aikido, is one of few "Non Beginner arts" in the martial world. At the start of Aikido, the founder required new students to have a decade of experience in a striking and grappling style, before he would teach them. Usually that was karate and judo, sometimes kung fu styles alone were enough. He would accept 8 years of experience from Jiujitsu students whose styles still included striking. He would accept 6 years of experience from people who studied boxing and wrestling, or Southeast asian arts like muay thai.
as far as Aikido not having that foot trapping that Shuai Jiao has: thats because of the difference between dueling arts and defensive arts, as i mentioned in my comment on another video.
a violent assailant chooses their victim and the timing of their attack. they choose people they believe they are physically superior to and can easily overcome with speed and brute force. because of this, they favor Offence almost exclusively. they also favor high momentum high committment attacks. Aikido's answer to this is to use Tai Sabaki (whole body movement) and timing, to bait overextension, and then use the overextended lever of an attacking arm to offbalance, and the momentum from the attack to assist with the throw.
Shuai Jiao as it stands now, is more sport oriented. Sport fighters give thought to defense, and risk management. they avoid both high committment *and* high momentum attacks most times. so Shuai Jiao would need the additional assistance of the foot trap to complete the move.
This is also why the shuai jiao guy says the move is so difficult. against a guy who is being cautious, it *is*.
If you practice the move, youll see what i mean. drill it with someone, with strikes to the chest and body only (edit: and grappling of course). one round, say youre fighting for points. they can defend and evade etc. It will be very hard for you to find a moment to pull off this move.
the next round, tell them they can only win by knocking you down, and if they dont then they lose. Also tell them they arent allowed to defend, but you are.
theyll come at you full force, punching and grabbing, and youll probably be able to put them on the ground because they will not be managing their balance well.
In Aikido/Aikijutsu, from the way I learned it, the Kotegaeshi is not just manipulating the wrist, you MUST use your footwork to get the person off balance and make it a proper throw. Anyone doing a simple wrist lock and claiming it will throw someone is full of shit.
Also the setup for this wrist throw the man does in the video is more similar to Shiho Nage. Whereas instead of pressing the wrist via the back of the hand, he is twisting at the wrist which can oftentimes be more effective. Definitely could lead to a broken arm in application. Good technique and at least setup to one.
1:10. There basically 2 big different versions of Kotegaeshi. One shown here, where you are twisting the wrist from the inside to the outside. While this is a basic version, it is not a beginners version. As the attack is an advanced attack. The more common version is standing or moving to the outside of the attacker and then twisting the wrist in a counter move to the outside. However: for that you have more simple attacks.
AGAIN: this is a standard Kotegaeshi required from roughly blue belt/3rd Kyu for a belt test, in nearly every Aikido style I know about.
Could you cover technique between judo, aikido, and jujitsu. Cover how they come at similar or shared techniques.
Shuai Jiao is awesome.
The real issue is not what you think.
Both styles attack the balance before the throw.
Akido uses big circle foot work (to make it easier for you to escape).
The Wrestling is using small circle foot work to stay in range for the next technique.
I believe you are right, most of the first aikidokas were people who trained in judo.
Smarter people than me can speak on the specific history of Aikido , but I've been consuming pretty much every thing I can get my hands on related to martial arts since the 70's and it boils down to this. You have to know the arts history to truly understand it and how it can or maybe can't be applied . Is it even MEANT to be a fighting art or is just an adaptation of one for sporting or self improvement . Did it get passed down correctly. Has it had to hide it's true workings from oppressors . What environment is it from. What did people wear. How did they look at fighting. There's so many little things that are either just taken for granted or misunderstood that change the entire application . Just like understanding that Aikido is at it's heart a sword based art for one. Or Savate was a method to fight on a ship deck and the kicks are meant for wearing hard shoes. It's really fun to dive into this stuff, but then also to remember every martial art comes down to just 2 things . Physics and biology . And these things haven't changed . Your eye doesn't care how it got poked out any more than your arm cares how it got bent the wrong way. And we have been beating the crap out of each other forever so there's always going to be similarities between arts and none of this is really new .
Your conclusion at the end is obviously correct: some version of this technique is done in many more ancient martial arts as well. ...Even more as basically Aikido is “just” an “updated version” of (some) traditional Jujitsu (Schools), consequently strictly taken there are no such a thing as (exclusively) Aikido techniques.
This variation of the Kotegaeshi (excluding the sweep) isn't actually rare. I've seen it in Hapkido demonstrations before. Also in Japanese jujitsu. Shintaro Higashi has a video on it if you wanna search it up..
Aikido does indeed teach some advanced stuff early on. Haven't you heard how most Aikido practitioners used to be Judo Blackbelts or skilled practitioners from other arts? Of course that this kind of stuff would be the first things you would teach them!
Yeah. Most of O Sensei’s students were all Judoka, right?
@@FightCommentary yes, and where do you get grabbed when doing Judo? In the same spots from where most basic Aikido techniques start. Now then, Aikido is mainly a weapon martial art, but when we look at the unarmed part of it, then all of this is true.
Assuming you can pull off the hand switch, you have a superior position and don't need the foot, just a further twisting of the wrist.
Hapkido and Aikido practitioners need to do live sparring.
I would call that an Ura kote gaeshi because it's a reversed grip and the body movement or tai sabaki is done from the inside instead in a wonderful Kung Fu way. Did Aikido and Aikijujutsu for 3 years and Kung Fu for 4 and is so cool to me when we can spot the differences and similarities in the different arts.
The "regular" one is ura, this is more like the omote version. The ura (outside) version is favored, because then you are in safer position, as you could be stabbed if you enter inside.
@@OsRaunio you're right, I should have said gyaku kote gaeshi.
@@joserosario5134 So what does "gyaku" mean?
@@OsRaunio what does "omote" mean?
@@FightCommentary It means reversed as for the grip as the case of the karate punch is Gyaku Tsuki or reverse punch because of the action of reversing the position of the fist from palm up to palm down at the moment of impact, sorry my terminology is a little rusty. Thanks for asking.
The hand part remind me of the beginning of the technique called Shihonage with the footwork for a technique called, Tai o toshi. Look up a famous teacher name Nishio and you'll see.
Thanks! Will do!
@@FightCommentary good to see you at the KFG channel from time to time! i'm a fan of your content.
When I was a much younger man, I tried some aikido classes. I quit because the distance they wanted to practice at wasn’t practical for a real altercation, however….if you have ever really tried to punch a good aikidoka, and they successfully do what they do, it feels like you are falling, even before you are thrown. What I have noticed is that a lot of these guys, ARE NOT, taking their opponents balance, and if you don’t take their balance nothing in aikido will work. ROKAS is a tall guy, and for him to make any aikido work against anyone smaller than him, it’s difficult because he has to get, so low for his height compared to his smaller opponent. The guys in the class I went to, had to get really low to make technique work on me because I’m 5’3”, and they were almost all 5’10”- 6’0” ft. Tall. It makes a difference. Watch any of Rokas’ aikido clips, and he’s almost standing straight up, and the aikido won’t work, because his opponents balance isn’t broken enough. Rokas, isn’t the only one that does it, other Aikidokas I’ve seen do the same thing. It’s why O’ Sensei could do what he did, he was a small dude. A guy 6 ft., by necessity is already going to be striking downward in order to punch you in the head, which makes taking someone’s balance that much easier, they are already going in the direction that you want them to go.
I love this.. in this video I can see the shadowing Forms translating into real wrestling. I like how it looks like a dance. Similar to how Africans practice forms
I think it is important to understand the contexts of these martial arts. Modern boxing has very well defined parameters and rule sets. For example a boxer need not worry about leg kicks or take downs and so on and thus their art looks like it does.
I don't know the context of Shuai Jiao, but in Aikido/Daito Ryu the assumption is that one or both people are armed with weapons and strikes are to be expected. With that in mind it is probably more wise to step to the outside, away from the free hand, to apply kotegashi rather than inside as the master performs in the video.
This does not take away from the master's technique, nor Shuai Jiao; only note that we must consider context in martial arts. Again, I know little of the arts, but I take that it is mostly practiced as a grappling only, competitive art these days.
To your other point, Daito Ryu is often practiced at different levels (depends on group). There are jujutsu, aiki jujutsu and aikijutsu, versions of the techniques, or so it is said. So a base level.gross motor skill (practical) version of techniques are learned before more advanced versions.
I've been studying Shuai Jiao for just over 2 years now in the same lineage as this instructor ( Li Baoru ). Not sure, but I'd guess when he says it's a difficult technique what he means is that it's difficult to pull off in a match or with real resistance, especially against a medium to high-level wrestler. I've certainly never seen someone succeed with this technique in a match. I'm sure people have, but as Li Baoru says its no doubt difficult.
If you have any footage, please send our way!
I doubt it's a descendant tho, jujutsu and shuai jiao aren't really related, they have similar moves because they both come from armed combat
Kote Gaeshi means wrist twist. In that sense it can be considered a Kote Gaeshi.
The main difference is that In Aikido you move first to the external side of the opponent, turning 180° in order to avoid the cut of the sword or knife (that's the origin) then you twist the wrist of the opponent returning the sword or knife in an spiral movement to the ground.
Exactly, there's a different footwork, like you said, to the standard kote gaeshi that involves moving to the external side of the opponent. After I made this video, I was looking up Kotegaeshi on Howcast. I know there's probably better sources for videos on it. Tell me more about your training. I'm so happy this video reached Aikido people. I normally don't make aikido videos, so I'm always thankful for new eyes and new audience!
Most people fail kotegaeshi (wrist turn out) because they don't start with kuzushi (toppling) first. You have to unbalance the uke before you apply a technique.
Great word (Kuzushi). I'm going to look up the Chinese characters for it.
I have my first karate tournament in June! Do you have any advice for me?
Yep: don't get hit.
Jokes asides, good luck man.
Thanks
Once again, I remind you that Aikido was originally taught to people with black belts in Judo as a less violent extension of the art. So, by its nature, it is already an advanced specialized curriculum, a "basic" move there is not the same as a basic move in Judo.
this is a good point
Makes sense since Judo throws are very powerful. On the tatami mats, no problem, but concrete is nasty and if the judo guy messes up the throw, he could either do too much damage and/or end up falling to the ground as well.
@@stoopidhaters Tell that to BJJ bros who have never actually been thrown in the real world.
Yep.
Aikido is very advanced stuff in every sense.
It's ridiculous that it is just taught openly to any person coming.
It assumes MASTERY of other things. And then you have clowns abandoning the art and saying "it's all fake" because they have NO CLUE how the stuff is actually used.
Just to comment on Rokas' comment: although a simple technique, Kotegaeshi is not easy to pull off. you can't do it on someone with a resisting, strong, wrist unless you get them off balance to where they're more concern about their balance than keeping their wrist strong. only then can you flex the wrist into kotegaeshi; you can't just go up to someone and do that.
I think its the other way arround... Kotegaeshi, and similar techniques are taught "first" in japanese jujutsu styles not because they are easy... But because they take longer to learn...
Example... In bujinkan, first you learn the kihon happo... Wich includes 2 versions of kotegaeshi looking techniques and one version of ikkyo looking techniques... Plus a handful other jointlock throws... And THEN you learn gyaku gi, and THEN you learn nage kata... So, gyaku gi is a larger collection of aikido looking techniques... And nage kata is the judo looking throws...
However, you are suposed to train on all of them over, and over and over again...so... By the time you master the judo looking throws enough to make them work... You have done the aikido looking throws at least twice as much... So you may actually make some of them work...
I practice both bujinkan amd sipalki... And in a sipalki tournament, a guy grabbed me by the sleeve, over the elbow... And i did a bujinkan style ganseki nage on the guy, as soon as the guy stood up he charged at me i did one of the ryu sui iki throws(dont remember the exact name but its a sacrifice throw similar to judo style tomoe nage) so... Thats the point... What works works, but what ishard to make work, tou have to practice it more the mechanica behind those throws is not particulary hard... Its the coordinated execution against a resisting oponent that makes it extra hard to make it work... It feels harder to do an ippon seoi nage evem.if the guy lets you so the technique becaus eyou load them on your back... But you can technically pull it off easier than a kotegaeshi in a fight because its harder to resist it than to resist a kote gaeshi... So in the end, if you wanna make it work as well as the judo looking ones... Train them twice as much
Could you put a space between "pull" and "it" in the last paragraph. RUclips thinks you're linking to a site.
@@FightCommentary sorry about that, just fixed it
Love your break down however two things to know aikido is about co operation it originally was never about self defence it was started as part of a religion that the founder was part of kind of we all must get a long thing . In aikijujutsu you strike the attacker first then use the throw and finish with a submission or end the attacker. So the foot work is different because you break the atttackers knee or ancle first .
Shuai Jiao is awesome. Master Li (shown in this video) is the best.
There is a similar technique in hapkido as well (yes I know it's descended from aikido). Thing is Daniele Bolelli does both Aikido and Shuai Jiao and he talks about the crossover as well.
Cool! I’ll have to check him out. Please send any links you like of his!
@@FightCommentary There's a video of him demonstrating Aikido techniques with Stephen kestling, Daniele might be one to get on as an interview black belt in BJJ, Black Belt in Judo, he's studied a load of Chinese arts (check out his wikipedia for full list and he's training Shuai Jiao at an academy in LA). He was the academic in the "I am bruce lee" documentary.
@@andrewk.5575 true but I find it interesting because I've studied both and my hapkido instructors have always had a healthy respect for o sensei. Aikido, Hapkido and BJJ I've studied and I like all three. as arts they really appeals to the pacifist in me.
@@andrewk.5575 Yeah
@@lewisb85 Found that video! Thanks for the lead!
Shuai Jiao = REAL AIKIDO
Well, I'd have to say sort of Aikijutsu since it's using pain and force to make it work, and it's not what I would call a kote gaeshi/kaeshi(wrist return) in my understanding of it. I have a 3rd black in Tomiki Aikido so that's my reference for it. It looks more like a kote mawashi(wrist turn) with a ko side of hane goshi from Judo or maybe someone else would call it a backward foot sasae tsurikomi ashi. I study Judo as well. They are complementary arts since they come from the same thing and Tomik studied both. Oh, and I wouldn't even bother with the wrist in this application. I'd do a sumi otoshi with the hane goshi added in for good measure. Now if the guy rotated in to face me, then I'd rotate out the opposite direction allowing the wrist to turn naturally without having to force it and do the hane goshi on the opposite foot...it you can imagine what I'm saying?
I think you should send a video! Thanks for your comment!
nice
🔥
Aikido's Kote Gaeshi can work by itself but that's mostly when you manage to get a good Tenkan (i hope you guys know what Tenkan is and how to use it)
Please send us some footage soon!
Jerry, have you ever considered not making bees angry? There's probably an ancient mystical Chinese Martial Art for that.
Yeah. I need to learn some technique for that 😅
Very interesting connection
With humility. It seems like a kotegeishi with an irimi. The irimi aspect is the bit where Sensei is entering on taking the opposing foot. So it's very aikijutsu. That same move can be done with a pure kotegeishi where there is no footswipe. It's very much a sword strike movement, where the sword is sweeping toward the ankle of the foot which Sensei touches on the sweep. Sensei is entering rather than staying at distance. Another way of doing this, would be to sword strike down on crease of elbow which is extended and then irimi to side of neck with other hand whilst entering, so the attacker then flips over his extended arm at elbow level, rather than here at wrist level. I think you're spot on, it is a kotegeishi. Very aikijutsu when done at elbow crease with an irimi to side of neck / jaw, which gives a beautiful throw and very powerful. In aikijutsu, you would maintain contact with crease of elbow cutting down to centre of attacker, whilst irimi or entering to opposite side of neck / jaw, and the defender maintains contact with both as attacker flips, so adding your own weight to attackers, all the way to floor, which is lethal. In aikido, you would allow the attacker to flip over and land feet / legs first and you would even pull up on the elbow to help the attacker break his fall. It's a beautiful throw to experience both as attacker and defender. The difficult aspect to all kotegeishi movements is the break fall when executed smoothly, it's a dynamic throw, and the defender in the aikijutsu or aikido forms has to lead the energy just as a smooth sword cut requires. it's a high energy movement when done right. Good for when someone is coming in with a bottle ,for example, trying to crack it on the side of your face. Side step, sword strike down on wrist or elbow, with irimi to side of neck, or if they're coming in with full force, a tenkan to evade, and the attacker goes flying. The tenkan is such that your foot ends up where the attackers foot was. But as they are fully committed, that foot leaves the floor with the initial sword strike down on wrist or elbow, if you maintain contact with wrist, it's a pure kotegeishi. I have resorted to this, but needs training to flow nicely. It works beautiful in the dojo and outside.
What does Irimi mean? I'm learning so many awesome terms from aikidokas in the comments!
@@FightCommentary it's been a long time since I trained, which is why I loved your post and description. Irimi is entering, and applying the energy from within the equidistance margin, your centre, hara, joins with the opponents hara. A tenkan, is more like two centres in orbit. Irimi, the haras come to one point and then separate.
Much appreciated! Makes sense. So the characters for Irimi is 入身, which in Chinese literally means enter with your body (or enter the body). So that's easy now to remember as "entering." It helps too that Irimi sounds like "entering," so now we have two ways, one for English speakers, and one for Chinese speakers to remember what Irimi means.
@@FightCommentary that's brilliant, the Chinese is a very nice way to remember Irimi, both are true as you describe the Chinese, as your hara (centre of energy) and the opponents hara do become one, on entering. So the Chinese characters describe it perfectly.
@@FightCommentary I read that the founder of aikido, Morehei Uesheba, did go to mainland China and did incorporate his learning there, into his arts. He was mainly pure Jujutsu at that time, old school Ryu''s in Japan. There is a lot of similarity between what became aikido and the Chinese arts, perhaps for this reason. Aikijutsu developed from his Jujutsu. Aikido, developed from his aikijutsu. O Sensei before this time was emmersed in learning the fighting arts and would most definitely have learnt from the Chinese Arts, if he had access, either from his travels or from someone who knew the Chi ese arts.O Sensei's art. Aikido, is very much related to the sword strike, fundamentally. Thank you for your posts!
I feel for you man. Bee stings to the foot are surprisingly painful. I’ve been stung on the ear, lip, the corner of my eye, my hand, and body. The time I stepped on a hornet barefoot was the worst by a good margin
For me, not being able to see the foot swell is really great mentally. The time my hand got stung and I saw it swell up twice it’s size was probably my worst sting. No one came up with a bee style back in the day when creating animal styles 😂😂
I realize you cant really use this if your enemy resist on you i got stab by a pencil before i caught his arm it was to fast i was preventing his arm pushing forward to kill me i then tried to twist his arm which was a stupid idea he over powered me i got stab but i manage to survive i think maybe if i caught him by suprise in kotagaeshi maybe i dont got a stab mark on my chest
I think he says kotegaeshi is hard but Rokas says it’s easy because it’s hard in a live setting. Dan Wolfman has videos of him using it in MMA/jiu jitsu sparring but it’s ugly.
Unrelated, this shuffle sidekick to the shin is super cool and unique to shuai jiao. I’ve never seen it in wrestling or judo.
Many martial art concepts from Japan originated in China. However, the Japanese had a talent for simplifying and improving those techniques to make them less theatrick and more practical. In this case, the Kotegaeshi is an upgrade from what you're seeing here because it doesn't require any of the elaborate shuffling around for power. Kotegaeishi instead relies on the attackers' own power being redirected and augmented by the strength of your entire body - using a rooted stance with a straight back and core for power. I get the concept of the shuffle because he's trying to generate power through kinetic force. However, the crossing of his feet makes it easy to throw him off balance or trip up. Additionally, his hunched over posture lacks core engagement, reducing his power and stability even further. Even if he lands it, that tiptoe tap with his foot has no power whatsoever. He's more likely to break his own foot against anyone with some weight. Kotegaeishi is more complicated than it appears and vastly superior in its evolution.
Just to put faces to youtube accounts, you message me on IG, sometimes, right?
@@FightCommentary That wasn't me. I barely use IG, so I don't even follow any pages other than some friends and family members. 🙃
@@justinwallace269 I see. There's another Justin something or something Wallace that talks to me.
@@FightCommentary Oh wow, small world. I've mostly talked about Taekwondo in the comments section here. That and I gave props for your animated intro because it's hilarious. I don't even go by my real name on Instagram. The only time I even use it is when my girlfriend sends me clips.
Aikido is something I've been exploring on and off for the past six years. I feel it gets a bad rap because a lot of people don't know its history, or how adaptable and intelligent it is conceptually. I honestly feel it has great potential.
The same technique does exist in Aikido, just not as basic. It’s called Giakukotegaieshi. This is the “ura” version. ...Otherwise my Master agrees with you, and advocates the version of basic Kotegaieshi, where you manipulate the head as well as the wrist, and you take with both hands the wrist just at the end when the Uke defends the head attack. ...And something often forgotten: just because in the basic exercise there is no other “contact point”, mostly they are hidden in the technique. ...Due to its nature it’s a “modelist” martial art, ie. this doesn’t mean you can’t complete / support the movement with other meaningful actions when trying to apply.
Another viewer used similar words. Look up the comment by Jose Rosario. There's also mention of "ura" and "Gyaku." Could you explain what these words mean. Thanks for your comment!
@@FightCommentary Very simplistically: « Gyaku » means that you take your adversaries hand in a mirror stance (I.e. right with left, or left with right) and « Ura » means you turn.
By the way , that is absolutely a kotegaeshi, just a reverse one. If the arm is twisted that bad already. it doesn’t take much more to take the person down.
In my Aikido training, the term 'hard' did not mean a difficulty level, but rather the type of damage the technique would do; there are 'soft' and 'hard' techniques in Aikido. Again, hard does not mean difficulty in learning.
He’s talking about difficulty. You’re talking about something else. Don’t put words in this teacher’s mouth please. It’s so funny how so many non-mandarin speakers keep trying to help translate.
In HapKido I learned how to grab a human hand called "Nike check" like shooting a gun if you were to exaggerate it when you grab a individuals wrist then you "crank the motorcycle" just like you would on a. Motorcycle
Using Chinese Wrestling to explain Aikido ?!
*This is Amazing*
Only if Rokas should Realize from other Martial Arts Styles ? - Hapkido , Chin Na , Shuai Jiao , Aiki Jujitsu
some scholars believe aikido was created when Osensei Was incarcerated in China and was able to observe BAGUAZHANG being trained in the parks of course not able to understand the deeper internal aspects being an observer but could have sparked the essence of Aikido think about it the circular stepping the graceful balanced movement and the very clever grappling and throwing...
O sensei was incarcerated in China?
@@FightCommentary I can't do a forensic search right now for the article but if I recall correctly it might have been part of a military incident i'm pretty sure it's not disputed that he was in China during the time that BAGUA was very popular and being practiced everywhere in the parks
I asked an aikido friend and he told me too that O sensei was incarcerated in China. I have to look up the history. So fascinating!
O Sensei's Aikido modified the techniques of Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu. These are old techniques. Japanese martial arts techniques. He didn't learn them in China.
with all due respect everything came from China even the Japanese people@@AikidoEducation
Keep in mind, in Aikido and trapping/locking in general, that you can’t really train 100%. When actually applied effectively it’s supposed to dislocate the wrist elbow and then disarm the opponent. Thats why you can’t really use it in sport. That and the rules say no small joint manipulation.
Im a purple belt in BJJ and i once tried to break this dudes arm for real. I transitioned to an arm bar with a basic armbar sweep from a triangle. The guy tried to pick me up. Im heavier than i look and then started stepping on my freaking head. Then when i swept him he bit my calf. I knew i couldn’t let him up. He was no-one to me and incredibly disrespectful so i was kinda angry. Tho, Trust me guys. It’s a lot different than even a tournament, because even in a tournament we are trained to accept defeat.
I managed to dislocate his elbow and dip. However, he was really hard to control and he didn’t know how to wrestle. Even then i had to run away because he was talking about how he was going to get a gun from his car.
All this in the parking lot of a Black Bear Diner at 1130am on aTuesday.
Ouch! How did it escalate to a fight? What got it to that point?
Most jujutsu styles have kotegaeshi, it's basic move when fighting against sword or other weapons.
Through experience in tomiki aikido competition, I personally think kotegaeshi is a pretty weak technique. It works great on people who are unfamiliar with it because they generally try and tense up (if you've ever tried to bicep curl your way out of an armbar you can see why that's a bad idea), but it's pretty much impossible to get on people who know what they're doing. If you post on the crook of their elbow they can't finish it, if you raise your hand in line with your shoulder they can't finish it, hell if you just relax into it it's pretty hard to finish. It definitely has it's place but overall I don't think this version is answering the key issues of kotegaeshi.
What's tomiki aikido?
@@FightCommentary It's Aikido, but with a sparring ruleset based on judo. It's relatively popular in some Japanese universities, as well as the UK and a couple places in Europe. Matches are either tanto (one person attacks the other with a foam knife, the opponent defends and throws them with Aikido techniques), or toshu (both players are empty-handed and try to throw each other). This is a toshu match between two former world champions.
ruclips.net/video/WoQQlOEnSFI/видео.html
@@FightCommentary A branch of Aikido created by Kenji Tomiki, a judoka under Jigoro Kano, it has randori like Judo and they don't usually wear the Hakama. If you see any Aikido competition or live match, it's probably Tomiki Aikido. Especially when they are using that "tanto" stick thing, though they also do this barehanded competition that is called Toshu Randori. It's a bit niche afaik and it's looked down on by mainstream/traditional schools, though there are some in the UK, and there's some footage on youtube that you might actually want to cover in a video.
One day when I retire from martial arts I think I'll start doing aikido
In Iaido your technique goes from from big to small. Aikijutsu and aikido have the same principles as when handling a katana. In that way going from armed to unarmed budo is the logical conclusion. Even Ueshiba-sensei went from armed to unarmed combat. Knowing how to deal with an armed opponent will also give you better insight how to deal with an unarmed opponent.
LoL so many things. I agree with judo before aikido. Kotegaeshi variant is in chin na which are in a number of Chinese systems as well as some Japanese kempo.
Kotegaishi is not a basic technique in aikido. In fact I would not categorize any techniques as basic or advanced. Aikido, at least the official Aikikai (Honbu dojo HQ) style has a catalog of techniques for different circumstances and attacks which for all intents and purposes we can call kata.
Beginners generally do the same techniques as advanced students in a class. However for the first exam, nikyu (fifth Kyu) they generally do attacks from wrist grabs because it is safer for them compared to advanced where you may need to do a kotegaishi from tanto-tori. Attack.ftom a dagger.
Kotegaishi refers to the lock which is generally folding the opponent's wrist. Like tan sao refers to a specific hand placement in wing chun, or Kimura refers to a specific lock in BJJ. But you can Kimura from guard, half guard, technical mount, sidemount, but the Kimura only refers to the lock itself. It is the context and circumstance that you execute it that might determine if it's basic or advanced. Same with kotegaishi, or ikkyo, nikyo, yonkyo etc. It's just A technique.
kotegaishi can be executed differently relative to body movement tai sabaki, and turns tenkan.
So it's neither a beginner move or advanced move. It's just a move or hand position just like how tan sao, is different than bong sao in wing chun, or a front teep, is a different technique as a switch kick. It's neither beginner nor advanced.
The advanced part comes in how that kotegaishi or any other technique is applied and in what circumstances.
The most important aspect in aikido as in any martial art is body positioning - specifically your center of mass and to effectively disrupt the opponent's center of mass. In that sense Chinese wrestling has the same principles as aikido, judo, Sambo and BJJ along with concepts like first you need to unbalance uke before you can throw them.
That's very interesting!
"Aikido, at least the official Aikikai (Honbu dojo HQ) style has a catalog of techniques for different circumstances and attacks which for all intents and purposes we can call kata. "
But they are all complete nonsense and have no practical application, whether or not the principles are sound.
Beautifull Technik but I belive that in Akido it uses the Energie Flow but in this chinese Wrestling it manipulates the Energie Flow i believe
"seminar syndrome" it's hard not to fall when the teacher throws you because you have respect and it's just a demo and you don't want to not go down so he puts you down hard the second time etc
Bet that guy really burns up the dance floor in the club.
Aikido vs mma where a aikido practitioner pressure tested his art he end up having to do a similar thing as this to make his aikido work in the cage