The Hidden History of Shuai Jiao - Part One - Kungfu Explained #06
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- Опубликовано: 7 ноя 2024
- The Hidden History of Shuai Jiao is a multi-part series that will present the history of modern Chinese Shuai Jiao, examining the commonly spread history to separate fact from fiction through the lens of evidence, history, and logic.
Kungfu Explained #06 - The Hidden History of Shuai Jiao - Part One
Chinese Shuai Jiao is often cited as being a system with a history of 4000 - 6000 years. In this first episode we will look into these aspects and to present a deeper image of the wrestling traditions of China and indeed humankind.
NOTE: I mean no disrespect to the various teachers featured in this video, particularly Master Li Deshun, who has dedicated his entire life to the promotion, development and practice of Shuai Jiao in Beijing. He is also a teacher and mentor to a good friend of mine, Mike Wix.
The references to various sources are made simply to highlight the generally disseminated information on this topic, which is by no means a reflection of the practitioners, as much of this history was inherited by them from the past.
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You start by connecting the word " system" to martial art, then go on to put on the impression that if the martial art doesn't have what is defined as a system ( written doctrines etc.etc.) then it's not an official martial art. So if a primitive tribe of people who exist today with no written language know how to punch and kick and throw people expertly, and they teach their young how to do this, isn't this still martial art? Australian aborigines have a martial art but no written language. From Chris Crudellis book "martial arts from around the world " look up toaist go TI wrestling. It dates back over a thousand years B.C.
Sorry got backwards that's " taoist go TI wrestling". The book is " wy of the warrior".
@@charlesbetancourt7337 No one said anything about having to have a written language, you missed the point completely. Simply having fighting or wrestling does not constitute a martial art as is implied with "the oldest martial art" as ever single group of humans in this planet wrestled and had combat methods. This is a far cry from the claim being made, and deliberately so. If this was the case as I mentioned every country that wrestled would be able the make that claim. Greece had records of wrestling for thousands of years, and they wrestle today, but it would be absurd and inaccurate to claim this is one on going continuous tradition and practice. There is no continuous on going practice of wrestling in China in either method, group of people, or format from those ancient records to today whatsoever and if you watched the the series in full you should understand this.
@@charlesbetancourt7337 the records refer to old practices which CEASED a very very long time ago in totality. Please reference actual historians and their work at opposed to people recounting myths
Man, this is so good. If you have a typed up transcript you could have this published in something like Journal of Asian Studies easily
You create great content too. But yeah, this is already organized as ready to print.
As someone who is 31 and disabled with constant back, hip, and shoulder pain, I find the leg sweeps and various takedowns found in Shuai Jiao to be very useful when I combine them with various holds, chokes, joint locks, and limb breaks.
Very well done. Thank you. In my decades of experience, I've come to the opinion that many of the "stories" told of origins in CMA are mostly mythical. There's nothing wrong with that as it provides an interesting window into Chinese culture and thought. The fact is the mythologizing of history exists in many, if not all, cultures. Your videos are well done. Please keep posting them.
Yes indeed!
This is quite something. In researching some martial arts related things some months ago I found some old shuai jiao book that left me with the impression that the sport as we know it is *relatively* more recent than has been implied.
I'll definitely be giving the rest of this series and shaolin history one my viewership!
yea seems like lots of chinese martial arts was just reformed/reformulated post 1949. Take for example Ba qua zhang used to be called Hsing Yi. Now Hsing Yi is Xing Yi?
Wow, you've done a lot of research for this. I learned a lot.
The biggest problem in my opinion is confusion between the generic term "wrestling", as a generic description of gripping unbalancing and throwing methods, with associating them with specific forms of wrestling such as Jiao Di, Jiao Li, Xiang Pu and Shuai Jiao (with BOTH it's character variations). It IS easy to say that everyone wrestles, so clearly people in "China" (which is another generic identifier which we can easily confuse!) enagaged in "wrestling". Having mucked around in this, and having written about it a lot in the past 2 years, I'd also argue that clearly some tactics and techniques are so common place not only in varous schools of "wrestling" in "China" but Chinese martial arts in general that they must have some long term historical foundation. That does NOT mean one unbroken chain of an organized system from Jiao Di to modern Shuai Jiao. It just means that people in China have been generically "wrestling" for a very long period of time and certain tactics simply work.
I won't ruin your next episode talking about roots of modern shuai jiao, I promise :)
I don’t think you’ll ruin his next episode. I got a lot out of the video, but couldn’t pull anything meaningful from your comment.
@@ramseybinns3987 I know what he is going to say about modern Shuai Jiao (as Ihave written a book about it) but he hasn't gotten to that point in the history in this episode. So I didn't discuss that aspect as to not ruin his next podcast
@@ramseybinns3987damn that's crazy hahaha.
Anwyays, i did find something meaningful on his comment (even tho i already knew about it) and it is that Shuai Jiao and many other Kung Fu styles share a lot of things on their forms, concepts and strategies, which wouldn't necessarily mean a conection but i do believe there is one as some of these similarities are too damn great, now then, these similarities do not mean that Shuai Jiao is actually cnocented to the other two ancient forms of wrestling mentioned on the video, just to the modern Kung Fu styles
Super cool breakdown, and well detailed. One theory of the history behind wrestling is that it came from nomadic Aryan tribes from the Steppe. Archeologists have found belt buckles that were given as trophies for two different events, wrestling while on horse back and wrestling off horse back. These go back to the Bronze Age.
Thanks! Do watch all three episodes of this series, I'm sure you will find it interesting.
I think wrestling came from bears and monkeys, but that’s just me. There’s strong evidence of it because they still do it till this day.
I was able to study Shuai Jiao in the late 1980s, I was told a lot of these myths and read a number of the mentioned sources.. I'm looking forward to the rest of the series.
Thanks. All three parts are out now and after that, I suggest you watch the two episodes of "In Discussion with" featuring Lavell and Emanuele
Just brilliant. Also, “if you’re doing it, stop it, get some help.” 🤣
What a superb, informative and in depth essay!
Great video. Thanks for it and the work and thought you put into it.
Great info! Also very spooky lighting haha
It's interesting how the most ancient form of kungfu seems to be the one that is realistically relevant for fighting. Just my opinion. By the way, nice video you brought here, appreciate it
I mean, yeah it's not directly ancient, but still awesome
Charles Nelson taught shuai jiao in New Jersey from my understanding it's Manchurian in origin. Mongolian, Jurhen, and Manchu would compete.
We will clarify these aspects in future episodes
@@MuShinMartialCulture Honestly thanks for the video you have honestly teach few stuff I did not know
Fair enough 😢
Really well done. As a non-han ethnic group that claims to be descedented from Chiyou, the Hmong people. We find it very funny to see remnants of our people still practicing horn butting in the local villages. They do the full viking helmet thing, lol. It's very funny doesn't doesn't look like what it suppose to be. But yea Mongolian and Greco-roman wresting is far superior. I remember researching martial arts in the 90s. Chinese wrestling used to be linked to "san shou", nowadays called "sanda", but there is very little wrestling moves. I find it weird because the 1980s-1990s sanshou was the missing link between judo and chinese kickboxing. Nowadays the link is missing or was fabricated?
Well, sanshou / sanda is referring primarily to a format and one that is more recent in fact. There is an aspect of "curriculum" along with both civil and military sanshou, but again, in terms of history it's quite recent
I have two questions
1. Does Shuai jiao and Bokh Mongolian wrestling the same
2. Does SJ have newaza ground grappling like judo?
Hi. Have you watched the entire series?
I had the horn butting explained to me not as actual horned helmet and butting heads but it is do to the shape of the body in wrestling. The horns are the arms as one goes over your opponent and the other goes under. It makes a shape similar to bulls or deer butting heads.
I would also like to point out that if any moves from older styles made it to modern Shuai Jiao, it means it was preserved orally and not necessarily written down.
Another thing to remember from Chinese history is that there are periods where a new dynasty will destroy and burn what is can from older dynasties. This happened during the Qin dynasty where they burned many books and buried scholars to promote their own worldview.
Have you watched the entire series?
@@MuShinMartialCulture not yet, though I did watch this video in its entirety. I understand that you may address these topics and others in your video series, but I was simply responding to this one. I apologize if my comment seemed rude or “know it all.” I appreciate what you are doing and look forward to watching your other videos. Thank you.
@@michaelwilbanks5844 no worries. Take your time and I hope you enjoy it!
Nice editing.
Here is the thing, by definition, Shuai Jiao is done against an RESISTING opponent. So its not nearly as prone to fakeness as other forms of CMA that tend to consist too often of a guy just waving his arms around and calling that martial. Much like Sanda the legitimateness is sort of built in. You won't see anyone showing "Chi Blast" in Shuai Jiao.
Not sure what you are getting at in relation to the video
@@MuShinMartialCulture Expressing admiration for Shuai Jiao due to the fact that pressure testing is built into it.
@@rodgerbane3825 As is the case with all wrestling cultures throughout the world, throughout time
@@MuShinMartialCulture Well, there is a reason that a lot of the top MMA guys have a wrestling background.
@@MuShinMartialCulture He's saying that you will see a Tai Chi Grand Supreme Master try to shoot fireballs out of his hands to knock out his opponents. While when you see a master in Shuai Jiao test their techniques rooted in practicality and realism.
10:36 Just FYI Suinin is the 11th emperor. Japanese researchers basically seem to regard the 26th emperor Keitai~ as real ppl, while an inscription on a sword from Inariyama kofun(old tomb) suggests the 21th emperor Yuryaku existed too.
Also could you enable the auto-subtitle on the video? 🙏
Thanks
Strange things the human mind is. Why trust facts when you can adhear to myths? Taekwondo has a similar problem with its 'over 2000' years old... ugh I cant hear it anymmore.
Awesome content. Subbed!
Deadpan on point. 😂
Then who invented the short sleeve jacket? I notice the Kazakh Kures style wrestling also use short sleeve but short pants too.
Have you watched the entire series?
@@MuShinMartialCulture yes, tell me what I miss?
@@MbisonBalrog the jackets are discussed
Chinese governments usually adopt certain systems and then those systems be come the "base" for others
Absolutely amazing piece - an example to follow. I will be watching all the rest of your videos.
Those who need so badly to use this very informative dissertation as license to delegitimize other arts haven’t overcome their most formidable opponent - themselves. Maybe some folks prefer to wave their arms around as a form of meditative practice and shun fighting for the sake of fighting. Rock, scissor, paper… firearm beats MMA - every time. Boxer Rebellion was proof.
Thank you for the words!
If anything, I think its more likely that Shanxi style wrestling could be closer to ancient forms of Han Chinese wrestling.
Well, unfortunately even that is not a continuous practice that was "re invented"
@@MuShinMartialCulture Interesting, would love to see a video on that in the future. How was it" reinvented"?
@@cpa314 in a similar manner to what they did firstly with shuai jiao history and then even the practice was drawn from other established wrestling practices
My understanding is that every traditional CMA system was expected to include shuai jiao or it was incomplete.
Did you watch the series?
I believe the same, Taijiquan, Baguazhang, Bajiquan and many more are incredible when you can also do Shuai Jiao, and you can also understand their forms way more
@@MuShinMartialCulturei'll get in on it
@@MuShinMartialCulture Does the series just talk about the lineage of sport shuai jiao or kung fu grappling as a whole?
@@MrCBTman It's a video about the history of all shuai jiao including it's incorrect use as a term in general and it's actual origins. When you say "kung Fu grappling" what are you referring to exactly?
Ok ya ip man wannabe
Don't understand what you are getting at
Bruh what are you on about hahaha
You show disrespect toward my Sigungs school in this video. Be careful what you say online!
I presented facts with substantiation. There was no "disrespect". Facts are neutral. Be well!
Eastern Martial arts originated in Yong Chun, Fujian during the Manchu weapons ban. They were weapons routines done without the weapons and sometimes disguised as Daoist rituals.
That's not accurate
Oh my, there are mountains of documents to prove this statement is inaccurate and misguided.
@@DavidRoss2780A Just like there are documents proving shuai Jiao goes back to 2697 bc.
@@bustr You either have terrible reading comprehension or you are just trolling
You spent 30 minutes ragging on the fact that there's no book that survived 4k years providing the historical side notes you're looking for.
As opposed to the old guys who are making maybe mythical claims, you take exactly the opposite position that nothing is true unless there is "direct evidence," trying your best to dilute the main claim by throwing in everything, including Nubian wrestling? 😂
And your preoccupation with ethnicity: everything in shuaijiao was founded by non "Hans" makes even less sense to be honest 😂
Sorry, but there is in fact documentation, but it doesn't actually connect the history as it's claimed. Which should make you rather question, why is the claim made then? When did the claim begin? If you missed the points, maybe rewatch...
@@MuShinMartialCulture Going out of your way to disprove what most tacitly accept as part mythology is essentially tilting at windmills.
There may be no way to prove direct links between it and ancient games--nor is there a need to justify it to the satisfaction of modern academics. Let them argue about the existence of Jesus instead. He's got first-hand accounts! 😂
The main point missed here is that shuai jiao was not created in a vacuum.
Wrassling in whatever form is integral to martial arts, which is important to Far East cultures. I see your fixation on anti-"Han" dialogue not very compelling because apparently everyone has a better claim than the people who actually wrote it down and practice it into the modern age.
Unfortunately your comment missed the point. The purpose of the video is not regarding whether or not wrestling existed, but rather where did today's practice come from. To rewrite the actual origins of an art deliberately, denying the cultures and people from which it came, and giving credit to another instead is something that any decent human being should look down on. Credit needs to be given to the people and culture from which it came and the truth is the only way to do that. If you think that is better to spread a lie and deny the actual people that deserve credit for this, you might want to rethink your morals. The fixation on ethnic group in the early republican period is something that effected everything. In fact, up until this day on Chinese ID cards one's ethnic group is stated. You may want to stop looking at the world through your skewed ideas of reality.
@@MuShinMartialCulture It is not immoral to point out your poor form. I can think of a few countries where "race" is on the ID card, and every country has "place of birth" in passports. How are you using this to justify bias? 😂
I don't understand why some guy claiming SJ (somehow) came from blah is grating on your nerves. The guys back then just didn't know any better and you are arguing with the benefit of time and 100 years of technology. You can't claim it's all BS because there is no direct link. Time tends to do that. Instead, there is indeed a common set of body skills that were shared and handed down.
It is about ethnicity today because you make it an issue. Nobody would argue that this came from Cha Quan or that came from Mongolian wrestling in real life coz, I mean, look at the jackets and boots. The straw man you are fixated on applied through a cultural misappropriation lens, usually the domain of US millennials, seems out of place.
@@robertvong You havent pointed out nothing except for your opinion, in spite of the mountain of evidence presented in the videos so far. This says quite a bit about you. If you think "place of birth" is the same as ETHNIC GROUP within your own country, you may want to sit out of this conversation. Plus, it was presented to show you that ethnic groups WAS and STILL IS focused on here, even more so just after the fall of the Qing empire. This is all presented in the two episodes released so far, which you obviously haven't watched because your comments above scream ignorance in regards to what was presented. The guys back then DID know better and DID INVENT A DIFFERENT NARRATIVE DELIBERATELY. This is shown CLEARLY in the video with evidence, yet here you are saying the complete ignorant opposite.
You are not refuting any of the presented pieces on Shuai Jiao history, which are STILL presented today as corroboration of han origins, yet take offense that someone is pointing this out? Says a lot about your own insecurities unfortunately.
If you think you know it all, then this channel is not for you. You are free to ignore the content presented. Its aimed at people who actually have an interest in learning something
You have failed to explain your positions with heaping on accusations without any discovery of the basis behind the points you draw your conclusions. Your words cute like your background setting as you speak attempting to discredit Shuai Chiao
Did your watch all three episodes? It's all corroborated with evidence very clearly. There is a 4th addendum episode coming soon, which will further re enforce the info I have presented, and this time coming from an authority on Shuai Jiao.